#he’s the anti Krell | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

antianakin · 4 months

Note

There is exactly one criticism that I agree with my, very anti-Jedi, cousin on and that's the Jedi were TERRIBLE Generals. Generals may TRY to make sure their men mostly come back. But useless sacrifices are not only acceptable, but expected, the men are mostly expandable in war. The Jedi did not consider sacrifices like that acceptable or expected. Sure it did happen. It was WAR. But they tried their best to make sure it DIDN'T. The Jedi were terrible Generals. But they were the teachers and Leaders the CLONES NEEDED.

I'm not sure I'd ENTIRELY agree with that. I think I'd be willing to agree that the Jedi were perhaps less CONVENTIONAL Generals, and they definitely do seem to at least TRY to place the lives of their men above just tossing them away for an easy victory, but you can just as easily claim that keeping the men alive to keep fighting is a good strategy in and of itself.

The biggest piece of evidence I'd point to that the Jedi were actually perfectly good Generals is the Citadel arc and Tarkin's criticisms. The one real criticism he makes of the Jedi as military leaders is that they're occasionally too soft and will abandon a mission if it looks impossible to win without near total casualties (on either side). But he's generally fairly positive about the Jedi and if they were truly awful at their jobs, I don't think TARKIN of all people would hold back on saying so, even to the Jedi's faces.

And we DO see the Jedi willing to make sacrifices and accepting that this is a necessary part of war. The Citadel arc is, again, a perfectly good example of this. Obi-Wan and Anakin go in with like 3-4 men each I think and they come back with a grand total of 3 (Rex, Cody, and Fives). A LOT of clones die on this mission that they all KNEW was basically a suicide mission because the Jedi themselves decided that getting the information about the hyperspace lanes was vital enough to the war that it was worth losing multiple lives over (including their own).

So it's not that the Jedi don't understand that sacrifices are necessary in war or even that they avoid it entirely, they just avoid what they see as UNNECESSARY sacrifice for what might amount to a fairly minor victory. Keeping more of their men alive might, in the long run, be a better strategic choice than losing all of them on one campaign, especially if it's over like one uninhabited moon or something like that. There's nothing to say that the losses the Jedi deem acceptable are things that would've changed the entire tide of the war had they chosen to push forward instead.

The other good evidence that the Jedi acting this way would've been the WORSE choice is the Umbara arc. We are told and then see that Krell IS the kind of General who is willing to lose a lot of clones in order to gain victories in battle, and the clones do recognize that he has a lot of victories under his belt. But never once do they discuss whether those victories really MEANT anything or had a large impact on the war effort. It certainly never seems that the Republic is majorly pushing back the Separatists because of Krell's victories, nobody ever mentions that Krell gained them a major advantage with those victories or took out anyone of any consequence on the Separatist side with his strategies. And by the time he gets to Umbara, he's explicitly using this strategy to WEAKEN the Republic side and cause a loss. Several of his strategies WOULD'VE meant the Republic lost on Umbara and it's only the clones utilizing different strategies that put fewer of them at risk that they actually end up continuing to HAVE victories at all.

I'll also point out that the Jedi continuously getting their men killed en masse would've bankrupted the Republic a LOT earlier because they'd have to be paying for more clones a LOT more often than they did in canon and I can't imagine anyone would've considered that a particularly sound strategy and at some point I'm sure the Senate would've felt obligated to put a stop to it anyway and insisted on strategies that kept more clones alive for longer. So I'm not sure it's fair to claim the Jedi were utilizing BAD strategy by not just exclusively using tactics that meant most of their men were killed for every single victory.

So the ONLY criticism we EVER see of the Jedi's ability as military leaders is Tarkin claiming they're "too soft" and Tarkin is the kind of person who would likely say that until the Jedi started carpet bombing entire Separatist planets. Would it give them a victory? Yeah, sure, maybe, but that's the exact same strategy the Separatists are using and look how well that works out for THEM. Everything else we ever see seems to showcase that the Jedi are in fact perfectly good Generals, not just in that they're kind to the clones and are unwilling to carpet bomb Separatist planets, but also because they're just... good at this. They CAN be strategic, they CAN run wars if they want to. And I think that's the whole point of the Jedi in some ways is that yes, they CAN make war when they need to, they just actively choose NOT TO every time they can. THIS is why Qui-Gon tells Padme that he and Obi-Wan are there to protect her but that they can't win this war for her and they end up going off to fight off a Sith while Padme has to actually win the war with her own people and the Gungans instead. The Jedi don't WANT to be in the position of doing nothing but fighting, but they're absolutely capable of this kind of work.

That's the tragedy of the war in some ways, the Jedi ARE good at this no matter how much they wish they weren't sometimes. But being good at it means they can actually protect the Republic, their own men, and even the Separatist civilians better, so they're not going to just sit there and do things that will screw over a bunch of people. Yes, they're going to fight the war in such a way that they reduce casualties as much as possible, but reducing casualties also requires doing enough to not LOSE the damn war, too. It's a delicate balance they're trying to hold on to and I'd argue they manage it better than anybody else would've ever done in their position.

#star wars #jedi #pro jedi #clones #clone troopers #the clone wars #listen i am not a strategist #i CERTAINLY am not a military strategist #but just looking at what we're shown and told by tcw and the films i think it's fairly the clear the jedi were GOOD at being generals #regardless of whether they LIKED that or not #yes they wanted to protect the clones but they weren't idiots and they clearly weren't causing the republic to lose all the time either #there's a difference between strategically retreating from battles that can only be won by massive casualties with little to no reward #and prioritizing saving the clones OVER necessary victories in the war #the jedi are doing the former to my perspective #if they weren't i think the republic would've been a lot worse off just in general #unless we're about to start claiming that the clones and/or civilian officers were doing all of the real work instead of the jedi #which i personally would not #esp since we see the jedi sitting there going over battle plans and coming up with their own strategies quite often #tarkin's opinion on the matter is suspect - don't take his word for it when he says the jedi are too soft

99 notes · View notes

phoenixyfriend · 2 years

Text

Secret Clones AU

Short version: Secret Clones AU is the clones going into hiding in plain sight across the galaxy to force a fair wage and also to keep the babies safe from Kaminoans

The clones figure out the plan to take advantage of them, brain chips, etc. several years before the war hits. IDK how, maybe Jango decided to take a closer look with Mij and went Oh Shit. Doesn't matter. Point is, they caught on and decided that they needed to uhhhhh get Out.

There are millions of clones, yes, but there are tens of thousands of planets.

Once the chips are out and someone's jabbed them with anti-aging serum... they're not that different from standard humans.

And it's not exactly hard to tie up the Kaminoans long enough to get off planet.

So what happens is that a while, let's say a year and a half, before the war kicks off, you have a mass exodus from Kamino, and a wide dispersal of clones. They are generally staying together in groups of about half a dozen, claiming to be brothers, so that there's a 16-18-ish looking clone to take lead, with progressively younger cadets to look after. Each one has a commander they can 'report' to in case of emergency, and if something goes real bad, they can call in an Alpha (and Alphas can call in Jango in a worst case scenario).

It's still sort of a military structure, but... it's a phone tree.

And you have one of these groups of half a dozen clones in every major city. There are thousands of planets, and most of those planets have more than one city. Denon and Coruscant are nothing but city, so they can get counted as dozens of cities on their own. It's easy to disappear in places like that.

It's so easy for the clones, before anyone knows them, to just... disappear. Go into hiding in plain sight.

It's not like more than a handful of people know what to look for.

(It's not like they have a centralized record of who went where.)

(It's just the phone tree.)

They still get real excited-happy-eager when they run into a Jedi.

They want to work with Jedi. They're the good guys! And they're cool!

But your army did a mass desertion before the war started and finding/recruiting all of them is going to take a stupid amount of money. You cannot hire a bounty hunter for each and every clone.

And as @bytebun put it:

Somebody two years later: you look …familiar. Have we met? Clone: haha I get that a lot just one of those faces

AND THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT BECAUSE THE GALAXY IS HECKING MASSIVE

I think the Republic has to like… negotiate with Jango and the Alphas and set up paid contracts if they want these Ultra Skilled Warriors to fight for them.

The clones can fight. Some of them even want to fight. They are good at this and they recognize that many of the things that are occurring under Separatist invasion are Mega Bad.

But like. Pay them and treat them as citizens, first.

The Jedi are even more confused about this identical army that really loves them than they are in canon Where the heck did you guys come from Who trained you Why do you like us What the heck is going on

"Someone wanted us to be a trap for you but we took the trap out. Here we have a sample if you want. Anyway. We like you guys and want to fight with you because honestly civilian life is way understimulating. Let me punch a droid."

I think a few of the clones do 'scouting' where they voluntarily help a Jedi in the field to gather information on their validity as Friends. Cody keeps a number of spreadsheets that are just Various Jedi Encounters.

Rex does a scouting mission with Kenobi&Skywalker and just goes to Cody like "Listen. I know he's insane. But. I want that one."

Rex just "I call dibs" "Cody. Cody did you hear me. Dibs, I call dibs."

@catboydogma: stats for pong krell are all zeroes

Absolute shit tier Jedi They play rock paper scissors to decide who has to deal with him

A solid half of the clones don't get recruited because the lack of advanced aging (past a certain point) means they're physically still minors and My Dad (Alphas and CCs) Said No. They stay behind on their various planets to look after The Real Babies.

"Let me ask my dad" "Wait--" "He said no."

Just want these boys to have Civilian Lives they can return to or at least experience before war gets them all fucked up.

I think some of them try to Make Connections with influential people (whether politicians or like... Space Influencers) so they have people vouching for them once the war kicks off. And there can be at least some public pushback on functionally enslaving them.

"I can't believe you manipulated people into liking you! That's so mean!" "Well you see. I wanted to survive past the age of eleven. So."

#star wars #the clone wars #Commander Cody #Captain Rex #phoenix posts

886 notes · View notes

noturusualpotato · 4 months

Note

:D for WIP Title Game, I'd love to know anything you can share about the Codywan Actor 👀👀👀 idea 😄 \○/

Thankyou!

Well, so. I don't have much written for it besides like a rough draft but generally it goes like did. Obi leaves the Jedi Order (yes, I'm well aware he leaves the Jedi Order in all my fics, but instead of re-writing Jedi rules on relationships or Obi going OC and having deep, true looofff relationship against the rules, I like to give him a free hand on romance). In this instance, it's after mission to Mandalore bc in this universe, Korkie Kryze is a Kenobi. Anyway, fast forward couple of years and Quinlan reaches out to Obi bc he needs someone to go undercover to catch a sleemo movie producer in the act cause can't catch him anymore. Obi goes. Movie producer is arrested. Obi's audition tape falls into hands of a movie director and Obi-Wan accidently becomes the biggest movie star in the galaxy.

Fast forward to the Clone Wars (Qui-Gon lives and trains Anakin, but leaves the Order too when the war starts because I can't see Qui-Gon as general or agreeing with the Order fighting so now he is an anti-war activist living on Obi-Wan's couch - he is also supportive of Obi leaving the Order in this one and like generally a good, if stoned, Dad), Commander Cody and his General (I'm pretty sure it's going to be Pong Krell to make Cody suffer bc I have to have at least one sad, traumatised main character) get a new mission. Apparently, Maul besieged Mandalore. However he is willing to negotiate with the Republic provided it sends his favourite actor with he might or might not be obsessed (this time not because of the missing legs, but because well Obi is Obi and he is a Sith catnip) to negotiate. Incentive? Well, Korkie decided to go to school on Mandalore (Obi and Satine have a co-parenting situation going on there) so he is stuck there. What's in for Cody? Nothing but he has orders to become actor's bodyguard.

What ensues? Chaos, movie nights, mass signing of Vode's Kenobi merch and two very pissed ex-Jedi most likely completely wrecking Pong Krell. (and ofc they fall in LOOOOOOOVE)

I am still working out the details and actual plot but stoned Dad! Qui-Gon speaks to me.

#wip tag game #my wips #codywan

15 notes · View notes

padawansuggest · 1 year

Text

Wrote a fic. Where Obi-Wan was unfortunately snatched up as Padawan by Pong Krell who’d already fallen to the dark side by that point. I only really allude to the abuse because I’m not big on either action scenes or hurting people those aren’t my thing. And the fic pretty much starts in an AU where the Jedi are a neutral body since Mandalore got bombed and that was their catalyst to leave the replublic. And Mando’a is even one of the main languages they speak in the temple because the Jedi now live DIRECTLY outside of Mandalorian space (this is partially so no one can attack the Jedi themselves because that comes with the threat of them being immediately pulled into the Mandalorian sector so attacking them would be an act of war) and they have a full enclave of Jedi living on Mandalore helping restore the planet and other planets in the sector. The fic. Opens up. On Obi-Wan (12 years old) pretty much immediately being found by Myles and taken in as they try to figure out what’s going on. The abuse he suffered is ONLY mentioned from Krell and also the catalyst of this situation itself, an opportunistic predator who tried to kidnap him, not realizing that’s the worlds worst idea.

And yet. And. Fucking. Yet. Even with me repeating over and over that the Jedi and Mandos are BFFs and other Jedi actually wanted Obi as a student but Krell somehow got there first. Even with all of that and even more trying to reiterate over and over that Mandos and Jedi are on the same playing field here.

I have had. Multiple comments. Telling me they’re happy a Mandalorian found Obi and the Jedi doesn’t deserve him. Get the fuck out of my face before I get intense because I will make grown adults cry when you’re being so obtuse to what I have said over and over again. This is not an anti-Jedi fic, and even in canon aligned fics (which btw I am slowly rolling out the universe changes so some mistakes I can see but that one is not one of them, but one of the first changes I put out there was Jedi having a place on Mandalore and in chapter two it mentioned Jango learning Dai Bendu against pretty much everyone’s wishes saying that he must have SOME respect for their fucking culture) I have never been anti-Jedi.

I’m anti-senate. I would blow up the senate and strangle it with my bare hands if I could. They are the abusive handlers of the Jedi order and they have them in a stranglehold so tight it’s literally ruined entire civilizations. This AU I mentioned them going neutral after Mandalore was bombed by the republic. That’s pretty much the catalyst for the majority of the culture and setting in this fic. And yet. People are saying. They’re happy. Obi-Wan found the Mandalorians. So he doesn’t have to go back to a Jedi.

This is not the fic for them. I am not the author they want.

#star wars #obi wan kenobi #the jedi #mandalorians

55 notes · View notes

foundfamilynonsense · 1 year

Text

Alright anti jedi people who say “the Jedi shouldn’t have joined a war bc they are becoming hypocritical and against what they believe” look me in the eye. In the eye. And tell me you’d like the Jedi if they didn’t enter the war.

Picture, if you will: Count Dooku, a former Jedi who we now know is a Sith Lord (y’know, the people who want to destroy democracy and are against everything the Jedi stand for) has just MURDERED a SENATOR for no other reason (that they know of) than to please the trade federation, a group that had overthrown a whole planet before.

He then appears on planets with a whole ass army of droids that he has been making in secret for years now and goes “ok my planet now” and he makes the droids kill any civilians who fight back and enslave the others. Since we see the separatists constantly trying to take planets and widen their reach, we have no reason to assume they’ll stop. So they keep doing this, meeting no resistance except of the attempts at the native people of each planet they conquer.

Obviously the Jedi can’t let a known Sith Lord just walk around the Galaxy killing people and taking what he wants until he reaches the senate and crowns himself emperor. So when do they stand up against him? Is your argument really never? Yes, palpatine’s plan involved them joining the war. But do y’all really think he’d be upset if they didn’t? “Oh the Jedi are just going to let me take over and let my apprentice cut a bloody path through the galaxy before crowning me emperor? Sweet!”

Or the senate goes to war Without the Jedi. And the Jedi just… sit back in coruscant, fight crime rings in the outer rim, and let the clones fight a Sith Lord by themselves? Is that what anti-Jedi folks want? Bc they also complain the Jedi are too privileged sitting in their ancestral home on coruscant soooooo.

So perhaps the real complaint is not “the Jedi should have stayed out of the war entirely” and is actually “the Jedi joined the war too quickly and shouldn’t have been generals” and like. Nope still a weird take.

Dave Felony tries to say that the jedi were too hasty to join the conflict in Rebels but like.

Ok. Please give me a list of planets the jedi should have allowed the sith to colonize and enslave before fighting back. The jedi saw a droid army. They knew what dooku planned to do with it. How long should they have waited before it was morally okay to stand up against dooku?

As for them not being generals: A) why do we assume they wanted those positions in the first place or got to choose said positions and B) ok who would you prefer to be generals? Bc like. Not people like tarken who join the empire afterwards, I’m sure. Clone commanders? Like heck yeah I’m totally on board for certain clones being made generals.

But like. Jedi have sensy powers that kinda help? They have life long tactical training? We see in tcw they’re very good at being generals? So like… why? And don’t get me started on the idea any Jedi would sit back and let a clone take point in dangerous missions. We only ever see jedi fighting up front leading clones and protecting them. Except for jedi who have fallen, like krell.

What I’m trying to say is that if the Jedi stayed back and watched others die without doing anything they wouldn’t be jedi. Saying “they could have just not joined the war” suggests they would be better people if they just sat back and watched. I will never understand

#star wars #pro jedi #in defense of the jedi #I got salty but I’m 😤 about this #it’s like saying oh there’s an ax murderer in the grocery store #and I happen to have ax murder defense skills #and I’m right next to the guy #but I’m anti violence so I’m not going to participate #I’ll just let him kill people rather than dirty myself with violence

9 notes · View notes

bambambunny · 1 year

Text

I made a squad of clone ocs

notes: I made their descriptions in like a day so it might be really simple. Under the cut cuz its long.

Ori’vod (CT - 149 - 2348 )

Chill eldest brother

Ain’t too worried about getting promoted

Just wants to take care of his little bros

The sweetest ori’vod

A transferee who is bringing all the wisdom

The others like to joke that he’s more of a jedi than their general

He has the most disturbing knowledge anyone could come across

Stickler (CT - 354 - 2875)

Staff sergeant

In charge of everyone but he stays with sarge, Toolkit and Extra

The most talented I think

Or at least the best at war

He’s a stickler for the rules lmao

Will not take care of himself no matter what anyone does

Sweetie (CT - 354 - 3153)

Sergeant 1

He’s kinda worried for Stickler honestly

Tries so hard to take the stress off him

Ori’vod keeps telling him that you can’t force someone to relax

that goes against the very essence of it.

If Toolkit is the one begrudgingly taking care of his brothers, Sweetie’s the one who does it with his full chest

The name was a joke but now it’s just a proper description

He kinda hates it lmao but there’s no backing down from this one

Bumper (CT - 354 - 4029)

Sergeant 2

In charge of Calix, Ritz, and Slinky

God bless his soul

Not like he’s any better

Angry little sht this one is

Everyone’s worried that he’s gonna pop a vein or something, well, everyone except Calix and Slinky

They live for that sht

But even then he’s the one that makes the weirdest plans, it’s like he has a personal vendetta against the clankers like chill man

He’s called that bc he can and will ram his entire body into a crowd of droids

Honestly the name is an understatement

He wouldve shot krell if he had the chance

Calix (CT - 354 - 4346)

He chose his name by himself which is a little try hard but ok

Will NOT let Ritz touch his armor

Get ur grubby aesthetic hands away from my pile of sht thanks

It’s purposefully awful

In fact he’s gotten quite good at making garish stuff

Fckin LOVES spacecrafts like you would not believe

Every time someone needs to go out and fly a starfighter he’s your guy

He’d be so good at Mario Kart

Ritz (CT - 354 - 4347)

Got his name cuz he’s fancy

Well, look

ever since he got out of the tube it’s like he’s been dreaming of customizing his armor

Calix gave him the name

After a while everyone comes to consult him about what they should add to their armor

Every after deployment he touches up his armor so he looks as shiny as the day they shipped him off

Even on active duty, every chance he gets he’s cleaning his armor

Extra (CT - 354 - 4445)

It’s cuz his number was so close to being perfect

The team medic

So tired of everyone’s sht

He’s like Sweetie but he’s not nice

Actually the only one he’s nice too is Sweetie

Everyone else can go fck themselves

Slinky (CT - 354 - 4478)

Mischief personified

He knows every which way you can fck with the enemy

Great with stealth missions, he just takes way too long cuz he’s so busy being a terror

The only one who falls for his tricks now is Calix

He does try some practical jokes at Stickler but that didn’t go well

He kisses up to Toolkit so much it’s wild dude

Toolkit (CT - 354 - 5744)

The baby of the group

Cuz he knows damn well his vode are the worst and they cannot be trusted to take care of themselves

So he has a backpack filled with everything

Like he’s got them cheese crackers, anti-acidity pills, headache tonic, mints, 2 extra toothbrushes, and virtually every tool known to man

He goes wherever he’s needed most cuz he’s the utility man.

Either on the main ship or on the ground.

They're all part of the 338th naval legion which has like 0 info about which is perfect for me bc I get to do whatever I want.

It was originally just Ritz and Calix but then i researched how many soldiers count as what division. The US army says that a squad has 9 members so I had to buff it out.

I'm still working on their physical appearances and their armor. I also have some incorrect quotes if yall want, just lmk.

#star wars #the clone wars #clone wars #clone ocs #star wars ocs

0 notes

smallandangry24 · 3 years

Text

Characters you hated more than the actual villains

111 notes · View notes

topsy-cryptid · 3 years

Text

Did The Jedi Commit War Crimes?

There's been an idea going around that the Jedi were war criminals, and it makes me wonder if some of these people have ever read the Geneva Convention.

My implication here, of course, is that the Jedi were not war criminals. In this post, I will be going through some of the instances people point to when they say the Jedi were war criminals, and checking them against the Geneva Convention to see if they count as war crimes.

Warning: A long post under the break. Also anti-Palpatine views.

The main problem, obviously, is that there is no Switzerland, no Geneva, no World Wars, no Nazis, no United Nations, and, as it follows, no Geneva Convention in Star Wars.

It goes without saying that there are equivalents, but their version of the Geneva Convention is likely to be slightly different. No sense in having a law forbidding certain modifications to bullets when most everybody uses blasters, for example. Even still, I will try to argue their innocence by using the treatises outlined by people on Earth — namely, the four 1949 Geneva Conventions, the three Geneva Protocols, and the 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons.

One thing I want to make clear: "Even if they do not technically count as war crimes, are not some of these still unethical?" That's a whole other can of worms, my friend. For the purposes of this post I'll go with the argument that it's war. Things that are considered unethical outside of war (eg murder, destruction of property) are considered a-ok under the context of war. War operates under a different set of laws! That set of laws is called the Geneva Convention, and the Jedi aren't guilty of breaking any of the laws set out by the Geneva Convention.

Last thing I want to add is that I am excluding the actions of Jedi that had turned to the dark side (eg. Pong Krell and Barriss) and Anakin (who's actions were specifically shown in the movies and show to be unusual, and toeing the line of the Jedi Code, if not outright crossing it.) I will not defend them. They had problems, man.

Alright! Let's get into it!

Table Of Contents

Obi-Wan's surrender on Christophsis constitutes a false surrender (perfidy).

• Obi-Wan's surrender on Cristophsis constitutes a false surrender (perfidy).

• The Jedi committed a war crime by allowing children under 15 to fight.

• The Jedi committed a war crime by using a slave army (the clones).

• Ki-Adi Mundi's usage of flamethrowers on Geonosis was a war crime.

This situation is somewhat amusing, I have to say, primarily because Loathsom is an utter nitwit. Obi-Wan offers to surrender, that we all understand, but what a lot of people don't realize is that Loathsom did not accept his surrender. Observe: Obi-Wan said "I surrender," and Loathsom responded with, "Order your troops to stand down." That isn't what you say when you accept the enemy's surrender. What Loathsom was doing there was demanding a surrender at discretion.

From Wikipedia: "In siege warfare, the demand for the garrison to surrender unconditionally to the besiegers is traditionally phrased as 'surrender at discretion.' If there are negotiations with mutually agreed conditions, the garrison is said to have 'surrendered on terms.' "

Sound familiar? Loathsome wanted a surrender and Obi-Wan asked for negotiations to agree on the terms. ("And of course, once you've taken custody of my troops, arrangements will need to be made for their food and shelter.")

Now the reason I say Loathsom is a nitwit is because typically, if opposing parties decide to do any form of negotiation, they will call for a ceasefire. Neither of them did so! Both of their forces were still fighting, both of them knew it (you can even hear blaster shots in the background while they're drinking tea), and still Loathsom agreed to a negotiation, even though he had Obi-Wan at his mercy.

So, not a false surrender because nobody actually surrendered. Not a negotiation in bad faith either because Obi-Wan didn't actually lay a hand on Loathsom until Loathsom betrayed the faith first by threatening to kill him in the middle of a negotiation.

And to be fair, Obi-Wan did provoke him into doing this by being the insufferable Negotiator (read: demanding humane treatment for his troops, who were about to become prisoners of war) but that doesn't constitute perfidy.

So it's now obvious that Obi-Wan didn't surrender his troops, but even if you're willing to argue that Obi-Wan surrendered just himself, then that would still make him a Prisoner of War (POW) and POWs cannot be killed, so Loathsom would actually be the one committing a war crime had he followed through on his threat.

The Jedi committed a war crime by allowing children under 15 to fight.

First off, I'd like to remind everyone that we are discussing a universe where some species reach full maturity at age 6 and some cultures elect queens at age 14 and this is not seen as a horrible thing in-universe, so I don't think the concept of child soldiers is seen to be as awful as it is in our culture. Regardless, I did promise in the preface to address every accusation by our standards, so I'm going to address this.

The Jedi did not supervise the draft, so this isn't an accusation that should be aimed at them at all. According to George Lucas, the Jedi were drafted. ("They got drafted into service." - George Lucas, 2019) We'll have to assume that the person in charge of drafting the Jedi drafted the Padawans as well.

Then who is the person in charge of drafting Padawans? Who should be charged with this war crime? That honor would fall to our good friend Palpatine, who was given emergency powers by the Senate to be in charge of creating the army, aka the draft. (Remember the scene in AOTC where Jar Jar was pressured to put forth a proposal to give Palpatine more power? Yeah. That was that.)

Thus I have to say that no, since the Jedi weren't in charge of the draft, they should not be held accountable for war crimes related to the conscription.

(Now, should they as an organization have pushed harder to protect their Padawans from the draft? Maybe, maybe not, but we're talking about war crimes, and "didn't try hard enough to stop your superior from committing a war crime" isn't a war crime.)

…

Okay.

So I am somewhat willing to give this to the "Jedi are war criminals" people. As you can see, I mainly made my argument using Word of God quotes and potentially presumptuous inductions that take a more charitable interpretation of the Jedi than some of the people reading this may be comfortable with. However, the assertion that this is a war crime that the Jedi should be held responsible for demands belief in equally potentially presumptuous inductions and an equally uncharitable view on the Jedi, so please keep that in mind when arguing this one.

…which is a convoluted way of saying that I don't believe we have enough information to definitively say either way, so your interpretation on this will depend on whether you're willing to think the best or the worst of the Jedi. (Essentially: "Palpatine forced the Padawans to fight" contrasting with "The Jedi forced the Padawans to fight", contrasting with even the stance of "The Padawans fought because the concept of child soldiers did not exist in their universe" that takes into account my opening paragraph.)

The Jedi committed a war crime by using a slave army (the clones).

In my research for this one, I tried to follow internet debates on whether the clones were even slaves at all (pre-Order 66, obviously). I was unable to find anyone that held the position of "Yes, the clones were slaves" that was able to distinguish how the clones' situation was any different than a regular military draft (conscription), and conversely I was unable to find anyone that held the position of "No, the clones were not slaves" that distinguished how the clone's lives were any different from life under a particularly humane slaveowner.

From my own personal observations, the only thing that distinguishes a military draft from slavery is that in a draft, the soldiers are released when the war is over. So the status on whether the clones are even a slave army in the first place is dubious, since we don't truly know what would have happened to the clones after the Clone Wars had Palpatine not been an downright trash human being.

For the sake of the argument though, I first want to establish that the clones were (if they were indeed slaves) owned by the Republic, not the Jedi. They are referred to in the Clone Wars series as "Republic property" not 'Jedi property', and in the Bad Batch series, Tarkin tells the Prime Minister of Kamino that "your contract [for the continued production of the clones] is with the Republic". While it was a Jedi that commissioned the clone army, he did so on behalf of the Republic (and without the approval of the Jedi leadership). The clones were owned by the Republic.

Which of course means that the accountability for any war crimes such as this would fall to Palpatine, as the head of the Republic. Yes, this falls under the same jurisdiction as the child soldiers conscription issue. As the creator of the draft, and as the leader of the Republic that owned the slaves, the heat for this would indeed fall to Palpatine. You can add "pro-slavery" to the list of Palpatine's unfortunate traits, right up there next to the other time he was pro-slavery. And the other time. And the other time. And the other time. And the other time. And the other time. And… you know what? I think I've made my point.

(And I repeat: Should the Jedi as an organization have pushed harder to give the clones rights? Maybe, maybe not, but we're talking about war crimes, and "didn't try hard enough to stop your superior from committing a war crime" isn't an war crime.)

Ki-Adi Mundi's usage of flamethrowers on Geonosis was a war crime.

I'm going to assume this one is referring to Protocol III from the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons which restricts usage of incendiary weapons (flamethrowers). First things first, the Protocol does not outright ban flamethrowers, only restricts their usage. So what are the restrictions? And does Mundi's usage of the flamethrowers fall under the restrictions?

Prohibits usage of flamethrowers against civilians. The Geonosians there all had functional wings, which only Geonosian warriors (aka soldiers) have. And even if they had been civilians, they were still directly engaging in the hostilities, so they've lost all protections afforded to civilians.

Prohibits usage of air-delivered incendiary weapons against military targets within a concentration of civilians. Not air-delivered, so a non-issue. Also not a concentration of civilians.

Prohibits targeting forest and other plants unless they are used to conceal combatants or other military objectives. It's Geonosis. No plants. Another non-issue.

That's it. That's all the restrictions. Ki-Adi Mundi's decision doesn't fall under any of them, so it's not a war crime.

In my research for this post I came across a meta from the Australian Red Cross about war crimes in Star Wars! Sadly, it's about the original trilogy, so not helpful for any Clone Wars meta, but still worth a read. You can find that here.

Remember that I do not have formal training and I am not affiliated with any military; I am simply a random person with access to the Wikipedia page on war crimes. It is possible that I am wrong on some points, and I welcome discourse.

In summary: The Jedi are not the war criminals they are accused of being, and to believe otherwise is to fall victim to the propaganda of Palpatine, the real war criminal.

Thanks, Palpatine.

#jedi #in defense of the jedi #war crimes #obi wan kenobi #the clones #the clone wars #ki adi mundi #palpatine #star wars #long post #meta #i wanted to include the accusation involving the zillo beast #but i couldnt figure out how that could even possibly be construed as a war crime #so i didnt include it #my posts

648 notes · View notes

mrfandomwars · 2 years

Text

In Defence Of Ki-Adi Mundi

Heyo! I'm here because I am Done™ with the general hate he gets.

So! Consider this post a defence against common misconceptions that there are on the fandom, I promise I will do my best to make this reasonable.

Warning: As some parts of the fandom hates Ki-Adi for things that are now Legends, I will do my best to include them as well.

More under the cut.

First things first:

Ki-Adi does not care about his men (Clone Troopers/The Vode):

I, personally, never saw anything that may indicate that, if anything I saw the opposite.

Proof A:

Episode 6 "Weapons factory" season 2

As you can see here, Ki-Adi clearly cares for his men in this scene, so saying that he doesn't care should already be disproven just from this scene, specially adding the fact he orders the wounded into the tanks in "Landing on point rain".

But let's continue, as I know some antis would turn around and say that he only did the later part so that they weren't slowing them down, even though he could have easily left them behind or go into the tank himself and left the vode to try and figure how to get the tanks around instead of, y'know, doing literally this while injured:

Proof B:

He leads the Marine's in front of the battle, something we have proof that people that did not care about the vode didn't do it.

The proof? Krell, a fallen Jedi.

Ki-Adi did not care about his (now legends) family

For this, I pull this:

-and this line from wookieepedia:

So, based of this two things alone, I wouldn't immediatly say he didn't care, maybe because of his duties as a Jedi he couldn't put their lives as his most important thing but I assume that his wives were given a choice on whether or not they could marry a Jedi.

"But MR!" you may cry, "what about how he didn't care that his family was dead!?" for that I say:

The panel most people use to reference that, Ki-Adi is literally trying to convince Anakin to not get stuck in the past by thinking that Obi-Wan might be alive because they couldn't find a body and he used his family as an example to the fact that not always it was possible to recover the bodies of dead loved ones, there's literally nothing wrong with that.

Don't believe me that it wasn't what he meant? Then read the comic page yourselves:

Also, he still dislikes Jabba the Hutt for capturing his daughter and almost killing her:

Ki-Adi went too far in suppressing his emotions

Two things:

1. I find that this misconception usually comes from the idea that Jedi, suppress emotions, which they do not, and you can see that if you actually watch the series, or read any meta honestly.

2. People show emotions differently, sometimes their actions speak louder than their words. Besides, Ki-Adi does show emotions throughout of the series:

Regret over the fact that his men were hurt:

Sadness:

And that's just off the top of my head (and what Tumblr allows me to put with the image limit).

And so no, he is not emotionless.

Ki-Adi disliked/hated Anakin and/or Ahsoka

First of all, there are already some posts talking about how the Jedi Council Did Not Hate Anakin, so if you are basing off your opinion that Ki-Adi hated Anakin because of one of the Council scenes where he spoke, I recommend reading them before coming back here with it in mind that being stern and pointing out when people are lying does not equal hate.

Second of all, relatively on the Ahsoka matter, most people use the whole Temple Bombing arc as a reason to show that he at least disliked her.

When, might I remind you, she was a suspected criminal, you can't argue that the only evidence was the video, as by the time she was judged by the Council, not only had she had that but also had her escape (which ended with a few vode murdered may I remind you), her working with a known Separatist, resisting her re-arrest even if she was captured at the end and being found with the nanobombs.

And as Mace Windu said:

And we all know what Palpatine would have done had he seen any opposition early (it rhymes with Border 76).

"But MR!" you may cry, "The Council (which included Ki-Adi) had already decided that she was guilty before that on To Catch A Jedi!"

Oh? You mean after she escaped, and dead clone troopers obviously killed by a lightsaber were found, after there was already a damaging video against her + an investigation (implied that it was run by Tarkin, I will give you that) declaring her guilty of their murders? After that?

(And Yoda uses the word "may" btw, when he says that they believe that Ahsoka was behind the crime, if that means anything to you.)

Add the fact that she was later found with Ventress and the bombs + the whole conversation with Tarkin earlier in The Wrong Jedi ... well, tbh, they didn't really have a choice.

Finishing on this matter, I recommend you to read some meta on the matter to also further your understanding on where I'm coming from.

ALSO,

Do I need to remind you that he literally went along with Anakin and Ahsoka's game of who killed more droids in Landing on Point Rain, when not even Obi-Wan joined? If he hated them, he would have scolded them or at least scoffed at them, not join them.

-------------

In conclusion, Ki-Adi often times receives hate even though it is unfounded and undeserved, and suffers from this fandom echo chamber.

#pro ki adi #pro ki adi mundi #star wars #star wars the clone wars #sw #swtcw #tcw #cw #the clone wars #clone wars #mr talks #pro jedi #in defense of Ki-Adi Mundi #ki adi #ki adi mundi #ki-adi Mundi

147 notes · View notes

nevertheless-moving · 3 years

Text

Unnamed Extremely Bad Plan to Defeat Darth Sideous AU - SW AU NO 9

Hopefully writing down this star wars au will help me exorcise the cringe demon that helped midwife it. Time travel au where obi-wan and Anakin come up with an extremely SPECIFIC and UNCOMFORTABLE plan to defeat Palpatine because it unfortunately, would actually work, as it capitalizes on one of Palpatine’s easiest to reach political vulnerabilities. This is not a unique plan- there are other au’s like this, but this one is mine. When searching for ways to explain exactly why this anti-sith strategy inspires such cringe and delight in myself I realized, with sinking dread, I have seen this in an Always Sunny episode...which yeah. I might be over reacting but hey, cringe is a personal phenomenon, everyone’s different.

Anyway! Uh here’s a bunch of plot that will eventually culminate in the plan.

*Too much plot, aaaah*. **All plot actually.** ***Its 1 am and this is still a draft*** ****It’s 2am**** *****This post will be just be background I guess.*****

*******STAR WARS AU NO 9 LAZILY OUTLINED CHAPTER ONE*********

Force ghosts Darth Vader and Ben Kenobi have had time to yell at one another without need for breath, and have more-or-less come to terms with the trainwreck that was their shared life. I wouldn’t call them well adjusted, but they’re more stable then they were the last decade or so of their living existence.

In haunting Luke, they end up encountering an artifact in an ancient Willis temple that offers spirits the chance to fix the mistakes they made in life. It doesn’t truly unwrite what’s been done, but it lets you create an alternate timeline. So this galaxy will still be what it is, but some alternate galaxy somewhere could at least have it better. Its almost never been used, because becoming one with the force usually lets you accept the past, but viewed objectively, Vader and Ben’s lives involved an extreme amount of yikes. They say goodbye to Luke and are flung backwards and sideways.

Anakin is holding his mother as she dies. Obi-Wan is landing on Genosis.

Vader just barely manages to avoid slaughtering the tuskens. To be honest, he doesn’t really get why he shouldn’t- his moral compass is still pretty f-ed up. He’s fairly certain the force is just torturing him, but still he controls himself (for Padme for Luke for Leia).

I’m gonna say well-adjusted!Vader sees murder in general as more of a vice than a sin- on par with having a beer. And really well adjusted Vader is willing to admit to himself that he’s an alcoholic, he seriously cannot regulate, its a problem. He really can’t let himself go, because he’ll just end up spiraling. And so he restrains himself and only seriously maims a few of the adult raiders.

Vader figures he can always come back later and slowly torture them to death if this whole ‘save the future’ thing doesn’t pan out.

Obi-wan leaves his shuttle and hides under a rock for 30 minutes. He calculates thats just enough time for him to pretend he went on an extremely effective and sneaky fact finding mission- just in case anyone checks R4′s records. Gets back in shuttle and gets the fuck out of there, much to Dooku’s chagrin, who lost sight of him after the shuttle landed and is now going to have to switch to one of his alternate start-the-war plans.

On the flight back he reports everything to the council- fallen Dooku and the separatist leaders, the trade federation and the massive droid army, Jango Fett the clone template of the republic army (?) working for the separatists. He briefly comms Anakin, but anyone hacking into their conversations would hear only a nonsensical, rambling conversation. Later, a hacker might turn over the idea that they were speaking in elaborate code, but why would Jedi invent such a thing during peacetime?

The war still starts; at this point in the timeline it was inevitable; the artifact was only designed to give them the chance to correct their own failings, not the galaxy’s. Palpatine still gets his emergency powers.

The same day the armies are discovered, separatist war ships take off to engulf Ryloth. The Jedi are instructed by the senate to lead the clone army and provide immediate relief-this will not be a repeat of the republic’s inaction on Naboo. It’s both better and worse than the first Battle of Genosis. So many more civilians are caught in the crossfire. The first titanic battle is not contained to evacuated droid factories, but rages across an entire populated world. The battle lasts for weeks.

The main reason this fight is less deadly is solely due to the fact that General Kenobi manages to maneuver his way into high command of the entire army.

“I believe assumptions were made since I was the first point of contact with Kamino, Masters,” the Knight explained apologetically to the arriving high council members. “I realize its not quite appropriate, but for right now I am the Jedi most familiar with our forces and the enemies. I would, of course, prefer to cede the role to someone else.”

The assembled Jedi can feel the truth in that statement.

“For better or for worse, advance troops were directed by the senate to land planetside and have met heavy resistance. I managed to redirect them to a more defensible position, where they can provide surface based cover fire for incoming reinforcements. The battle has already begun.” He received a grim nod of approval from Master Windu.

“I feel the need to say now, that if there’s one thing I learned from my time as a general on Melida/Dann, or in working against Death Watch on Mandalore, its that having a clear chain of command is vital for a military to succeed. I don’t need to remind some of you that leadership breakdowns were what ultimately ended both the Stark Hyperspace War and the Yinchorri Crisis,” Masters Koon and Tiin exchanged looks before deliberately sending forth a small force wave of approval, understanding where this briefing was leading.

“I believe that unnecessarily restructuring command before the battle is won here could do far more harm than good.” The reminder of Obi-wan’s unusually militaristic apprenticeship put some of the assembled knights at ease even as it inspired a twinge of guilt in the older masters.

“In command you are, General Kenobi,” Master Yoda finally acknowledged. “A Jedi Master you will be, once done this battle is. Have us do, what would you?”

The battle lasts for weeks, and when its over, the commanding Jedi and Troopers involved will openly acknowledge that had anyone else been in command, it would’ve lasted months, if not years. Facing down logistical, strategic, and tactical problems on a scale unheard of for a thousand years, High General Kenobi does not falter.

Enemy reinforcements seem unending. For all their preparation, every single trooper is new to war, and secretly concerned that should they fall, they will be replaced with cadets who hadn’t even finished their training.

Obi-Wan is putting out fires before they can start. Much to their shock, clone commanders are informed that they will, for the time being, remain in charge of their troops. With a handful of exceptions, Jedi ‘Generals’ were in fact, to be treated as a cross between highly skilled commandoes and advisors with abnormally sourced field intelligence.

“All of you have spent your lives training to lead your brothers into combat. The Jedi Masters and knights who are being assigned to your divisions have not received such training.”

General Kenobi addressed the division commanders, some in person, some over holocomm. All focused in rapt attention as their General reordered the shape of their lives using language they could understand.

“The command structure I am issuing is designed to maximize our ability to utilize our respective strategic capabilities, while minimizing potential loss of your life. It will be our great privilege to serve alongside such an army, and while I fully expect a complementary exchange of knowledge in time, for now, focus on survival.”

The Jedi received similar briefings, tailored for their broader array of combat and military experience. Some, including Jedi Master Pong Krell and Grandmaster Yoda, were pulled aside and tasked with the essential mission of infiltrating and destroying the Droid factories on Genosis. If they were to have a chance of winning this war, they they would need to cut off the seemingly unceasing flow of droid reinforcements.

An elite squadron of Arctroopers and Jedi field operatives were covertly dispatched, Grandmaster Yoda himself in command. Considering Count Dooku had yet to appear anywhere near Ryloth...the grandmaster had the best chance of bringing in the fallen separatist leader alive for questioning.

Shortly after they left, Anakin arrived, having finally turned over Padme’s protection to her regular guard. With the military creation vote past, the assassination risk was considered minimal. The real delay in his arrival came from her repeated attempts to join the Grand Army of the Republic on Ryloth with the intent of coordinating humanitarian assistance. Eventually he managed to convince her that she could do more good in the senate.

After all, he pointed out, someone would need to followup the military creation act with a bill to grant clones equal citizen rights. Otherwise, the legal grey area that cloning fell under and their non-republic origin would inadvertently make the clones slaves.

His borrowed Nabooan cruiser entered the warzone with the grace and efficiency as a small neutron bomb.

Those close enough to see its flaming descent watched in horror, realizing that the high generals own padawan would likely be a war casualty before he ever engaged in combat.

The legion nearest to soon-to-be-ground-zero, under the command of Captain Rex of the 501st, were distracted by heated combat, as the temporary barricade they had put up to defend the civilian population gave way to droidika artillery.

While reloading, several dozen troopers happened to look up to see a speck detach itself from the hull as at spiraled in the lower atmosphere. Hope spread that the Jedi had managed to activate some sort of eject hatch. A skilled shocktrooper could probably control and and survive such a fall with luck, which mean a Jedi almost certainly could.

A few tactical scouts charged with watching the skies confirmed that the speck was indeed a humanoid. No chute was visible, but even 8 days into the war, rumors had already spread about how Master Windu had passed off his chute mid-air to a troopers who had been damaged by suppressing fire, cushioning his free fall solely with the tank he crushed upon landing.

Only one trooper, stationed in the town clock tower specifically to track the Padawan’s arrival and issued with a high-resolution farscope, saw the whole thing. Fortunately for his credibility later, in its current setting, the scope automatically logged photos every 5 seconds, ensuring that for years to come Obi-Wan would have a flipbook as evidence that he was not the crazy one.

CT-3609 or Blink (as he was named after winning the division wide staring contest on Kamino two year prior) forwarded the trajectory of the vehicle to command, who confirmed his analysis that it would impact two clicks out from their makeshift fort and not present a risk to civilian or trooper lives.

As it traversed the stratosphere a figure (desperate repair droid, Blink assumed) emerged from the cockpit to perch on the nose of the ship. As it entered the troposphere, it became painfully obvious that the figure jutting out from the hull of the ship was in fact not a humanoid droid, but an unarmored human. The Jedi stood on the prow of the ship, seemingly impervious to and oblivious of:

air resistance

centrifugal force

normal space gravity

Blink’s slack-jawed bewilderment

the flames engulfing the ship below him

At this range, the smirk on the man’s face was visible (man? boy? kriff is he even through puberty?). Several miles above the surface he leaped, diving towards the ground like a bird of prey.

To the west, the ship made impact with the ground, sending a shockwave that shook the tower just enough for Blink to lose visual in the final moments of descent. Cursing, as while he was confident the Jedi would inexplicably survive, he really wanted to see how. The trooper scanned the droid-engulfed farmland to the north for a crash site, to no avail. Lingering smoke from the burnt countryside negatively impacted visibility low to the ground.

Rather than trying to articulate his report into words, he sent the 50-odd frames the farscope had saved, as well as the coordinates for the jedi’s projected radius of touchdown. A quick radio over to long range electro-ballistics ensured that his landing wouldn’t be marred by friendly fire.

He awaited follow-up questions on the absurd entry method, which, when they came, mostly consisted of variations on “...Is this for real?” and eventually “Can you set the scope to video for a little while?” and finally “Do you think that’s how he got the name Skywalker?”

There was a temporarily lull in fire from the west, likely a ripple effect from the ship’s explosion. From his vantage point Blink could see his batchmates using the opportunity to try and plug the holes in their barricade with broken droid pieces. Regardless of the itch to join them, he knew he couldn’t leave his post until the Jedi actually arrived in camp. Finally, a distant explosion and thick pillar of smoke gave the Jedi’s position away.

He tried to make out details, but the scope had a difficult time focusing through the haze. Manually trying to fine tune the scope’s settings, Blink caught a glimpse of what looked like half a hover tank sailing through the air to impact with a trade federation troop carrier in a fiery explosion. Several more explosions, flying droid artillery, and plumes of smoke were caught on record before visual contact with the source was established. He was mostly visible as a blue blur, lightsaber mowing a meandering path towards their location.

It wasn’t until Skywalker braced himself in place to punch a droidaka into pieces that Blink caught actual sight of the man. Only his eyes were visible, nose and mouth covered by layers of cloth. He blurred, then reappeared on top a massive missile launcher attached to an absurdly heavily armored vehicle. A minute or so of rapid blue flashes passed, the longest he had seen concentrated in one area. Then Skywalker was gone, movement clearly visible as he for once he moved in a straight line, plowing a rapid path away from the launcher.

Less than 30 seconds later, Blink had to wince away from the scope, as a burning white explosion temporarily overwhelmed the direct light filter. The trooper panicked for a moment, thinking he had gone both deaf and blind, but the abrupt, sucking silence ended after a moment with a deafening sonic boom. The shockwave rattled the farscope, nearly knocking it over, but Blink managed to steady it and himself in time.

A cheer emerged from pleasantly surprised vod below. The entire droid legion that had been guarding the missile launcher and apparent ordinance bay was flattened.

It took a moment for the realization to set in that the background noise of missile and and anti-missile collisions directly overhead had slowed pace. With the northern flank gone, artillery were able to redouble efforts to the east, and a second white hot shockwave ensued, signaling that the tide of battle had shifted. It was almost too easy for the republics electro-ballistics to tactically devastate the surrounding forces.

Eventually some sort of win/loss programming must have set in and all forces outside of a certain radius began retreating southward, conceding the scorched land to the republic army. It was cadets work to clean up the final suicidal droid charge.

A commotion ensued as Skywalker leapt the barricade with a mid-air flip. The vod greeted him with cheers, as they correctly assumed his appearance had something to do with the skirmish’s decisive victory.

Blink sent the video of the battle to command and quickly packed up his scope and assorted equipment. Hurrying down the battered tower, Blink thought to himself that this Anakin Skywalker was the best sort of Jedi a trooper could ask for.

uh sorry i got really sidetracked there moving on

Kenobi and Skywalker quickly become the face of the war once again

they grit their teeth a bit, but when they finally have a moment to really plan they eventually agree that to take down Sideous they have to cut off his political power in addition to everything else, and taking advantage of their public personas was the most accessible way to do so (*evil laughter*)

While Dooku wasn’t captured, Yoda heard the truth in his old student’s cryptic warnings about a Sith in the Senate, and the council begins carefully editing their release of tactical plans to the Chancellor’s office in the hopes of ferreting out the spy in their midst.

Pong Krell looses two arms in his duel with Dooku. Obi-Wan successfully hides his smug pleasure at the news. Anakin enjoys makeing comparisons between him and Grievous.

Kenobi doesn’t allow the origin of the clones to go unexamined, although he agrees that if the public were informed that they don’t actually know who ordered them it would probably cause panic.

The ‘inhibitor chips’ are ‘discovered’ early on and Anakin leads the effort to ensure that they are phased out and removed immediately. This consists of reminding every Jedi who even hesitates about how how he as a child slave had some experience with control chips and unless you want to take a leaf out of the hutts books lets start doing brain surgery chop chop mmmkay?

(This isn’t to say that Vader doesn’t still a twinge of shame at acknowledging his slave roots. But it is eclipsed by the burning guilt that he knowingly acted as slave master to his troops for decades after Sideous wiped their minds. He tried to rationalize it to himself, after all he didn’t immediately understand what Order 66 had done to the troopers. But while the morality of murder was more of an intellectual concern than a personal one, treating people as things...)

The Kamonions are a little harder to budge, referencing contracts that they refuse to allow the Jedi to see

Finally Vader snuck into the Chief Medical Scientist’s home while she was sleeping and straight-up threatened to murder her and burn down her lab. At the risk of losing her life’s work, Nala Se complied.

Vader left with the final threat that in the event that Darth Tyranus caught wind and activated Order 66 prematurely, he would kill 100 Kamonians for every Jedi felled by troopers. Shaak Ti was pleased by the cloners sudden change of heart. Tyrannus, and by extension, Sideous, are in the dark.

Obi-Wan frequently publicly confronts Palpatine about the troops citizen status, urging him make use of his emergency powers to grant them citizenship and full pay, with the option to leave the army should they so wish.

Anakin manages to play off his avoidance of the Chancellor as disappointment in his perceived lack of dedication to anti-slavery efforts

Finally Palpatine gives in- regardless of what happens next, the troops will be looked after.

With 2/3rds of the troopers dechipped, Vaderkin is eager to kill Sideous again, but after several intense screaming matches and sparring sessions, the time travelers come to the agreement that even if they succeed in their duel, with things as they were, the perception of the Jedi military coop would cause mass civil unrest. The scattered sith apprentices, while individually weak, were more than capable of magnifying that fear and anger until the galaxy breaks. Darth Sideous wanted to ensure that if he couldn’t have the galaxy, no one would.

(Vader knows this. Sideous enjoyed monologuing, and much of his plotting couldn’t be safely bragged about until after he had decisively won, leaving Vader as the unwilling receptacle for years of pent-up rants and self-satisfied gloats about the inevitability of his victory)

Continued Here

472 notes · View notes

kiwikipedia · 3 years

Text

The moment someone insults or acts inappropriately towards their Jedi, the Clones go feral. Like absolutely batshit feral.

Waxer and Boil have slugged someone for looking at Obi-Wan for too long (Bonus if it was Griveous because that’s funny to me).

Cody has done the above but rip that bar-goer, now he has a broken face.

Rex repeadily has to stop the 501st from engaging in brawls for Ahsoka’s honor because “For kriff’s sake Fives you can’t fucking kill the man, just snap a few fingers and help Jesse get the window open so we can flee”

Colt wouldve bashed some Kaminoan heads if a.) he could reach them, and b.) Shaak Ti subtly tells him to be at ease when Lama Su makes subtle digs at her

Bly can and will hunt down anyone who tries to make a pass at Ayla.

Monnk repeatedly has thrown rocks and yelled that he’s the only one who can call Kit “Fish Stripper” because that’s HIS general god dammit

No one cares what happens to Pog Krell, he deserves it.

Grey took a page from Bly and hunted down the only person to ever made a comment about Caleb.

Wolffe has bitten an anti-nonhuman senator. Sinker and Boost didn’t even stop him. Warthog cheered and Comet holotaped the entire thing.

Fox has given up on even reading the reports. Just signs them off. Wolffe has an entire wall of write-ups.

(The Jedi are just as bad as their Boys. Plo isn’t allowed in bars unless he’s there for Jedi missions. Those talons HURT. By far though Shaak Ti is the worst and if it weren’t for the laws of the republic Lama Su would be dead)

435 notes · View notes

feelinkeeli · 2 years

Text

I get people pointing out Jango didn't try to descalate the situation and 100% agree he shares SOME of the blame for how Galidraan unfolded. (I actually approve of this narrative choice because it makes the Galidraan situation messier and less clear cut on who's to fault for the event. Also, Galidraan is part of a villains origin story, so Jango playing a part in his own downfall is *chef kiss*)

And I completely agree that the Jedi shouldn't be blamed for Galidraan either and the anti-Jedi sentiment within the fandom is exhausting in connection to this event. Because the Jedi were victims.

That said I don't like to lay the blame entirely at Jango's choices either. Jango and the True Mandalorians were also victims.

Both parties made bad calls and were victims of a set up.

Same way the 212th and 501st were set up on Umbara. Friendly fire killed Waxer but we don't blame either group for failing to do everything to prevent that event. We blame Krell, who set it up.

So I think the 'Krell' of Galidraan is Death Watch and the governor of Galidraan and it's those people that deserve the blame for the event (as I have said previously, in a less salty post).

#star wars #galidraan #i am very tired of anti jedi sentiment for glaidraan #but I also don't like the growing amount of posts blaming Jango instead #it just feels victim-blaming to me #given my own feelings on Galidraan

35 notes · View notes

nibeul · 3 years

Note

What always really confused me about the Clones status as war slaves is that it never seems to upset Anakin, a former slave. Like, in "The Hidden Enemy" Anakin gets an expression when Slick points out he and his brothers are all slaves that seems to indicate he realizes this and that it makes him uncomfortable... and then it's never brought up again as far as I remember. Like, they really could have used the status of the clones as slaves, as well as the Jedi's complacency to the slave trade on Tatooine as reasons to his fall, but neither are ever really brought up. Also, is it ever established what happened to the clones in general after Order 66? I know they were used as the first generation of Storm Troopers but what happened after they were retired? There were thousands of them, where did they go?

oh I've thought about this so many times and it never fails to bug me. my guess is it comes from the fact that Lucas literally did not think about the implications of the Clone Army when creating them in ROTS, but it's still an issue and one that... doesn't really have an explanation. Not to mention, the Jedi as a whole were supposed to be super anti-slavery (which we know they weren't since they let prominent groups like the Hutts get away with it/were willing to compromise with said groups and also, ya know, Qui Gon literally telling an enslaved Anakin that they weren't gonna save him or his mom...), so even accepting their role in the GAR goes against what they say they stand for.

Generally, I think there were three main plausible responses to the Clone Army from the Jedi (for those who actually acknowledged that the clones were enslaved anyway):

Viewing it as a "necessary evil" and were willing to fill their role in the hierarchy. By reasoning with themselves that it was for a greater purpose, they're basically absolving themselves of guilt/responsibility. This also goes into the "well if I don't do it then someone else will" mentality where they see it as a must. -> We can also talk about the concept of "acceptable slavery" here and how we perceive Jedi who "treated the clones nicely" vs someone like Krell who saw them as expendable and sub-human

Completely distancing themselves from the source (while actively criticizing from afar, in some cases). They might acknowledge that the clones are enslaved but refuse to actually do anything about it and instead remove themselves from the war effort entirely. They see it as something that's bad, but not something they should do anything about either. If they avoid being put into roles like "General", they avoid feeling responsible. They still remain a Jedi but have completely avoided aiding the war effort in its entirety while also remaining silent about the clones themselves with the occasional sympathetic comment.

Leaving the Order. This one can kinda go with the above I guess, though I'm sure there were Jedi who saw what was going on and outright refused to be part of an institution that was actively participating in the enslavement of the clones. I'm sure there were former Jedi (and maybe even active Jedi) who helped clones desert, though we haven't seen any in canon, so I guess it's up to the fans to have that (without the white savior vibes please :|).

I think it's also important to talk about "well, who's guilty then?" because in the broad sense, the entirety of the Order is responsible, but then it varies at an individual level. Like let's look at Plo Koon who's canonly very forgiving but draws the line at slavers and actively tries to kill them on sight multiple times in the comics. I enjoy Plo Koon as a character; I like doodling him, I like reading fics with him, but he's also a High Council Member and upholds the system which keeps the clones enslaved. His character arguably contradicts itself, but because he is portrayed as nice and caring, the argument against him is "lessened"/he is not held to the same level of accountability someone like Krell is. We excuse him—and other Jedi—from the fact that he is helping to lead an army of enslaved men because he is nice.

In Anakin's case, part of me wonders if he doesn't really think of the clones as enslaved because the clones are not enslaved in the same way that Anakin was enslaved. He has a set idea of what slavery is based on his own circumstances and the way that the clones are enslaved doesn't seem to fit the bill so he doesn't really register it. Being confronted with the fact that his childhood might not be so different from what the clones are currently going through made him uncomfortable, and as such, he pushed the thought away/decided against addressing it. That's more so an in-universe explanation since I already mentioned why the story's probably set up this way but yeah. Idk how much I want to get into that, so I'll leave it at there for now.

For what happened to the clones after Order 66, they fought for the newly established Empire and continued to be produced until the Kamino Uprising (which I think was like... 16-12BBY, somewhere in between that??). Palpatine pretty quickly started integrating natborns into the Empire's military wing though the clones still made up the bulk of it for a while since the Empire needs more than one or two years to make a complete shift. Most of the clones died before they could ever retire from old age, I believe the last active clones were Vader's fist (the 501st) and the majority of that battalion was wiped out during the Battle of Hoth. Bottomline, they deserved better than what they got.

I'm 90% sure clonehub's talked about this, so I recommend checking out her blog.

#cw slavery #nibeul says fuck #nibeul talks #I'll probably need a mug of tea before I breach this topic any further #if I do end up doing that #but yeah again go check out clonehub because she probably has more on this than I do #nibs asks

106 notes · View notes