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firelxdykatara · 1 year

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Was watching sneezys video on K/A v Z/K and wondered slightly off tangent why you (and ill admit that I) never took redcrackle as a red herring pairing? Was it just preference for enemies to lovers or ? Is it because they have meat to them that seems it actually might resolve in a romantic fashion (if xyz reasons and behind the scenes wasn't in the way)?

Prt 2 of the sneezy x rc because to clarify i always wondered why being like they are (not having the same values and always having to leave each other instead of coming together) didn't make you see it as a k/a or m/z?

So I actually answered an ask similar to this quite some time ago, though the framing was a little different--I was asked if I agreed that red crackle was maiko 'done better' and my answer was kinda wordy but I think it boils down to this:

I think a big part of it is that Carmen Sandiego started out giving you the sense that these two characters genuinely loved and cared for one another in the 'childhood friends' portion of their past. ... The thing about maiko is... it was entirely one-sided from the very beginning. Shippers will sometimes try to sell you on them being 'childhood sweethearts', but they really weren't--Mai had a crush on Zuko, to which he was oblivious,...

...

Gray and Carmen, on the other hand, were established as rivals who quickly became best friends over the course of their year in school together. They clearly cared deeply for one another, and Gray was just as upset as she was when Carmen failed their final exams ... They didn't see each other for three years (incidentally, the same length of time between Zuko's banishment and meeting Mai again), at which point they were enemies, and yet Gray was clearly upset at the prospect of having to hurt her.

...

Carmen and Gray both grew as characters separately and together--Mai never grew at all, being the exact same person in her last appearance as she was in her first, with the same beliefs and no indication that anything about her worldview had changed, and this is especially egregious when she was paired as a love interest with the character who arguably had the most dynamic growth throughout the series.

Ultimately, my problems with maiko (and kataang) were never that the characters involved had diverging morals or goals, or that they spent significant portions of time separated--those are things that could make for juicy romantic development if given adequate time and page- or screen-space to grow and add to the tension between them until it eventually boils over. The real issue is that neither of these ships actually sold me on the mutual development of their romantic feelings or relationships.

And actually, maiko and kataang both share the problem of one-sided interest being established and nothing being done to make the journey from unrequited to requited love seem believable for the characters who did not originally share these feelings. Aang's crush on Katara is abundantly clear from the beginning of the show, where he hatches from his ice egg and imprints on the first girl he's ever seen in his life like a baby duckling. Katara is entirely oblivious to his interest in her even when he tries to act upon it (take the Cave of Two Lovers, for example, where they kiss to light their way forward and Aang seems flustered and clearly wants to talk about what just happened, but Katara seems to feel nothing except relief and excitement that their plan worked and she can now find the way out), until quite late in the series when, after Aang rather aggressively projects his own feelings onto her, she suddenly seems to reciprocate. Likewise, it is established in a flashback that Mai had a crush on Zuko, but there's zero indication given that he ever noticed her feelings, much less returned them (which makes sense given that he was ten years old at the time and she was his sister's friend and helped to torment him), and no care or attention is given at all to his feelings towards her in the present until suddenly they are dating at the start of book 3.

Then with maiko you have the added issue of nothing ever being done to resolve their stark differences in worldview. At the end of The Boiling Rock, Mai turns on Azula to save 'the jerk who dumped [her]', not because she suddenly realized she was wrong and the Fire Nation needed to change. And at the end of the show you have evidence that Zuko had completely forgotten about her (despite the fact that he could quite possibly have thought she died defying Azula to save his life, and never once seems to think about her again afterwards), and they just... get back together. Because reasons, I guess. Because Mai says 'I guess I kind of like you' and that's supposed to be a good reason for two people to get back together despite none of the things that made their relationship untenable in the first place having changed.

On the other hand, Gray goes through an entire arc on the show after getting his memories back where he comes to realize that working with VILE was not worth losing Carmen, and it wasn't worth Carmen losing herself. And while you could certainly make the argument that at the end of the day he was still saving Carmen because he loved her (however you interpret that love; I personally view it as romantic but obviously the show did not choose to make any specific Carmen-centric ship canon in the end), not because his own moral center had shifted away from the villainous, I would counter that taking a stand against VILE was a clear indication that he had discovered something that was worth more to him than his criminal inclinations. And there was actually a relationship there to serve as a foundation, plus the obvious potential for him to join Team Red in the future and use his skills for good rather than evil.

I have always been a proponent of the redemptive power of love, incidentally. I think that one of the most beautiful forms of redemption is choosing to change because of love, because the act of falling in love and recognizing that love is inherently transformative. Because love changes us and makes us want to be better versions of ourselves. (Or sometimes worse, I do love a good corruption arc too but that's a different topic.)

But the thing is that I ultimately need to believe that love exists in order to buy its power to redeem. I never saw any reason to believe Mai and Zuko were in love beyond very surface-level indications of attraction and an otherwise shallow relationship where they never seem to connect on any deeper level--and not for lack of trying on Zuko's part, here is an excellent essay about their lack of emotional intimacy. Carmen and Gray, meanwhile, had a close friendship and deep emotional bond which persisted through Gray's forced amnesia and that changed him enough that he let Carmen go and then took steps to get her away from VILE after they captured and brainwashed her, branding himself a traitor and risking imprisonment or death to do so.

You can't just skip the part where the story shows us how and why a couple are in love or might have fallen in love and then try to convince me that they are and this isolated moment of sacrifice embodies it. You've gotta put in the work! And atla ultimately fails to do so for either of their main canon ships. (Zutara on the other hand..... but that's another essay. Cough.)

#atla #carmen sandiego #red crackle #anti maiko #maiko salt #kataang salt #salt for ts #long post #kitty meta #Anonymous #asked

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ladyelainehilfur · 5 months

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Kataang isn't a bad ship, they're just boring and aggressively mild mannered.

#reading the comics trying to figure out why I'm still lukewarm on them when they're so established atp #no sparks no chemistry they don't joke with each other they never fight #what works for people works for people #but from a shipping perspective it's like eating bland oatmeal #healthy but not exciting #avatar: the last airbender #atla #kataang salt

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sad-endings-suck · 1 month

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some of you are too angry at fictional children

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longing-for-rain · 30 days

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Schrödinger’s Redemption Arc:

It was either perfect storytelling or an insensitive colonizer guilt narrative…depending on who you ship him with.

#zuko #fandom salt #atla #avatar the last airbender #zutara #anti kataang

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yourhighness6 · 23 days

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The thing about the whole TSR discourse is that a lot of it is centered around who was right: Zuko or Aang. Although I have seen posts focusing primarily on Katara's feelings, I do think it is necessary to remind anyone who cares to listen every once in a while that it doesn't really matter who was right. It matters who enabled Katara to make her own choices and gave her the space to do so, and I think we all know who that was.

#also it was necessary for the narrative for katara to realize what she needed for the moral message to work #zutara #anti kataang #katara deserved better #atla #avatar the last airbender #fandom salt

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starlight-bread-blog · 15 days

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It's always "No I don't hate A@ng or Ma! I just want to criticize how their characters were handled", and never "They're fictional and you're offended on the behalf of literal nothing".

Ps: Zks say what you gotta say to avoid harassment. I don't hate them either. It's just absurd that hating a fictional character that doesn't exist is something to be denounced in order to be taken seriously.

#zutara #anti anti zutara #anti kataang #anti maiko #pro zutara #atla fandom problems #atla fandom critical #atla fandom salt #anti atla fandom #zuko #katara #zuko x katara #katara x zuko

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jasontoddssuper · 11 months

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You can definitely tell that Katara is indigenous,that Aang is of a lesser known type of asian descent(tibetan)and that Zuko is east asian.Because the fandom constantly adultifies and sexualizes Katara despite her being 14 and makes fun of her for taking her trauma seriously,calls Aang ugly,erases his positive traits to make him look like a regressive bigot and minimizes the fact that he's a direct victim of race based violence and infantalize Zuko to pretend he dosen't have flaws due to wanting to date him,make him 'the braincell' to an objectively smarter darker skinned character(Sokka)and calls his country feminist even though they're literally colonizers.Sounds about white

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the-badger-mole · 1 month

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I don't particularly care for NATLA, but I think it’s hilarious that the k@taangers are losing their shit over a possibly bait scene for zutara, and that it has even people claiming that if this series canonizes zutara, then Tenzin wouldn't exist and yadda yadda, to the point that my sister who is a non-shipper got sick of it and ranted to me for a whole hour about how sick she is that people believes it really matters, because Katara does so little in LoK, that you could change the mom of Aang's children, and it would hardly make a difference, that all of their characters are defined by them being Aang's children, not Katara's and honestly? It was an eye-opener to me, even Kya, being a waterbender is never that important :/

if this series canonizes zutara, then Tenzin wouldn't exist

I do not care for Tenzin much... But also, I disagree.

Katara does so little in LoK, that you could change the mom of Aang's children, and it would hardly make a difference

I've been saying this for years. Bumi and especially Kya get so little story that they would've benefited from not being Aang's kids. And Tenzin got nothing from his mother. He doesn't look like her, doesn't take after her in any significant way. There's not even a nod to his SWT heritage in his home. The creators went out of their way to make sure Tenzin had almost nothing to do with Katara. He barely interacts with her, and those few interactions are so nondescript that she may as well not be his mother. His kids barely know her! Had his mother not been Katara, nothing about his arc, history, or character design would have to be adjusted. And let's not forget the biggest beneficiary of Kataang not happening would be Katara herself.

I have flirted with the idea of making Tenzin not Katara's son in one or two one shots. It would be so easy to do, too. Maybe he's the son Aang had with an acolyte. Maybe he's an affair baby. Maybe Katara never had to suffer through a marriage with Aang at all. The only child that would be significantly effected by having different parents would be Bumi, and that's only because it would be weird for Katara to name her first son after a man she had only the scantest connection to without Aang's input (why did she agree to that name?).

#lok #anti aang #anti kataang #tenzin salt #anti tenzin #if bryke didn't want me to headcanon tenzin as not katara's son they should've made their relationship...exist

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broadwaybalogna · 5 days

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All this discourse over Kataang and Zutara is so fucking exhausting. Like, I’ll be looking through the Zutara tag tryna find a cute lil thing to read and all of a sudden 50 people are bashing and hating on the ship. Now, I can’t speak for kataangers and whether they see the same shit on their tag but I’m sure it’s true. Y’all, literaly just stick to your ship and… Enjoy it??? Is it really that hard to watch other people enjoy a ship??

Now for a personal message:

Kataangers- YOUR SHIP IS CANNON!!! You have nothing to prove! It’s cannon!

Zutarians- I respect the dedication to the ship. But you have GOT to stop provoking Kataangers😭 (Kataangers also need to stop provoking)

How long has this been going on for??? How many circles have y’all gone through??? Is this not FUCKING EXHAUSTING!?

(I’m going to tag both Kataang and Zutara so just so y’all know: I ship Zutara. If you come onto my blog looking for Kataang content, you won’t get it, but that doesn’t mean I won’t welcome you!)

#kataang #zutara #shipping #wtf #why are you guys doing this to yourselves #just reading all this exhausts me #friendship is magic #atla katara #atla zuko #atla aang #atla #avatar the last airbender #netflix avatar #atla fandom salt #atla fandom critical #atla fandom problems

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i-d-e-g-a-f · 2 months

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i already have so many gripes with the original show and how they handle aang’s character arc and his relationship with katara/how they disserviced her by putting her in that relationship and i don’t trust netflix to fix ANY of that in the slightest, in fact i think they’ll probably make things i actually like about the original even worse and the actors are so young too oh my god Kiawentiio get behind me and it’s gonna be another horde of new fans rehashing the same tired old discourse i cannot do this again helpppp

#i’m fucking tweaking rn man #here comes a new wave of perfomative activism #atla fandom critical #atla fandom salt #anti kataang #i noticed an uptick in zutara/kataang discourse recently but i didn’t realize it was bc the show is coming out tdy 😭#i cannot do this again i cannot relive another renaissance where zutara shippers are demonized for existence #i cannot deal with people shitting on katara for no reason again and people selectively ignoring zuko’s character arc when it’s convenient #for their argument and ppl acting like i summoned satan himself when i critique the aang #atla discourse #i don’t even try to engage in discourse it’s just always recommended to me no matter what i do and i’m just so tired of it

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starlight-vixen-emiko · 6 months

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I’m not sure if you’re in the ATLA fandom but l*ve square feels a lot like kat*ang where people can easily criticize female main but don’t you dare not ship canon or criticize our boy!

Childish boy that can do no wrong/ is perfect that needs come before duty or the wants of his partner x woman of color that’s kind and strong which are her best or worst traits depending on when you ask and who must end up with male lead because he earned it

................................................

*SIGH*

Anon...Sit down for a moment.

I am not sure if you read my about me or not but I should I mention I ship Kataang and my blog is a pro Aang blog!

I was going to write up a big response but I think I should keep this relatively short and sweet.

But to start off...How is Lukanette like Zvtara?! Like how?!

Zvtara was more popular than the canon ships before and after Avatar's run. And while Lukanette was popular for a time, it was by no means more popular than that one ship that shall not be named! If anything Zvtara is just as popular as the LS and Zvtara fanfics are similar to Adrien and Marinette's fucked up """"love story"""". I remember reading ZK fanfics where everyone and I mean everyone pushes Zuko and Katara together, Toph, Iroh, they are all reduced to mouthpieces for the Zvtara fanbase. Kind of similar to the creepy ass Adrie//nette cult in the show. I literally found a fanfic where Iroh and Kanna try to get Zuko and Katara together by shoving them in a freezer together, which reminds me a hell of a lot like M*raculous.

And I am not sure why you Z/tara shippers are once again playing victim. Yes, there are Kataang shippers who arrogantly flaunt their canon but I also seen Z/tara shippers who think me and my peers are delusional for not seeing the """"romantic chemistry"""" between Zuko and Katara. I have seen Z/tara shippers act all smug and think they have better reading comprehension than people who ship canon. Not to mention the ZK shippers who think anyone who doesn't like Z/tara hates woman and all Kataang shippers are white men while all PoC are uncomfortable with the idea of Kataang.

And honestly the people who think everyone who hates Z/tara hates women can seriously fuck off! Shipping isn't activism! Some of you really need to get off the computer and touch some grass! And stop talking for all PoC as well! I am PoC! And the way a lot of Zvtara fanfictions fetishize Katara and make her Zuko's exotic girlfriend makes me uncomfortable. Not to mention the ZK shippers who think Aang would force Katara to let go of her culture (Legend of Korra and the comics proved this wrong) while Zvtara fanfics involve Katara completely letting go of the water tribe to become the perfect fire lady.

Not to mention, my friends and I were bullied by Zvtara shippers! I was bullied by a ZK shipper in her 40's who acts all smug and thought she had moral superiority and had better reading comprehension because she ships ZK. She just complains about cartoons all day.......Yeah! Complaining about cartoons all day is what ZK shippers do I guess.

And I am not sure why you Aang antis and ZK deepthroaters go on and on until kingdom come that Aang never faces consequences. He felt guilty for burning Katara, for kissing her at the wrong time, for Katara putting herself in the line of danger during the desert episode. Aang saved Kyoshi Island when it was attacked by the fire nation, and he felt guilty and saved Katara and Sokka after hiding a letter from their father from them.

Unlike Adrien whom the creators literally said does no wrong or doesn't need to apologize for anything. Chat Noir ate up kissing Ladybug in Oblivio...Aang felt guilty for kissing Katara in Ember Island Players and didn't bother her about it again.

And Aang takes his role as Avatar seriously! Even if it was all so scary and sometimes he wished wasn't a 12-year-old boy with the weight of the world on his shoulders...Which is human. The ML bible confirmed AdriChat doesn't give a crap about being a hero he's just in it for the freedom!

And again...Not sure why you guys think ZK is like Lukanette...Is every non-canon ship "Just like Zoootara ZOMG!" now?!

I mean...Luka and Marinette actually liked each other. Zuko and Katara never showed romantic interest in each other. (But I guess that is a hard pill for you people to swallow) And "Katara falling in love with Aang is unrealistic because i would've chosen Zuko!" isn't a valid argument! And yet ya'll claim Zvtara isn't a self insert ship.

Honestly I have seen more similarities between Lukanette and Kataang. Both are best friends to lovers that are brushed off as "just bros!" People dismiss both shippers by the mere virtue that the other choice is "more attractive". I have heard people said that the two year age gap between Marinette and Luka is creepy...Similar to Kataang.

And honestly the fact you people have been watching Avatar the Last Airbender with your eyes closed thinking Aang never faces the consequences or apologizes reminds me of that old drama of how people honestly felt Marinette never apologized and got off scott free with everything!

And Luka and Aang are two sweet boys who get way too much unwarranted hate!

And don't you dare compare Kataang to the LS! Similar to how not all non-canon ships are like Zvtara (Because I hate to break it to you people...But Zvtara wasn't robbed of anything! There are plenty of non-canon ships done far worse than Zvtara!) Not all canon ships are like the LS!

Kataang had gradual development and Aang and Katara were best friends! They were each other's ride or die! They had so much development that I am surprised you people are shocked that Aang and Katara ended up endgame.

Adrien and Marinette didn't have the same development that Aang and Katara did! Don't even compare Kataang to the loathe square around me!

But hey, if you can't see how awesome Aang is and how beautiful and nuanced Kataang is...Sucks for you I guess.

I think I am done now...Sorry if I wasn't here to validate your overhyped erotic wattpad fantasy ship but......I am not a Zvtara apologist blog and you messed with the wrong person.

Edit: I forgot to note!

One of the biggest fandom woes I dealt with in both fandoms is

ZK shippers being like "Katara never liked Aang!!!"

and LS shippers being like "Marinette never loved Luka!!!"

And I am like "Guys I am tired!"

But hey...Lukanette is toooootally not like KaTaang amirite???

I mean you guys only think Lukanette and Zvtara are similar because they are both non-canon right? Even if Lukanette was canon briefly. As short lived as it was...

#antizutara #anti love square #love square salt #ml salt #adrien salt #chat noir salt #pro aang #pro kataang #lukanette #pro lukamari #kataang defense squad #anti adrienette

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burst-of-iridescent · 2 years

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the official zutara dissertation (p.3)

Part 1 | Part 2

Now I’ve proven why Zutara is superior, I’ll address the most common anti Zutara arguments (aka, the most ridiculous shit I’ve ever heard in my life).

BOOK 3: DEBUNKING ANTI ZUTARA ARGUMENTS

1. People only like Zutara because they’re dark and intriguing. In actuality, it’s a shallow relationship based purely on physical appearance.

First of all, I find it hilarious that Zutara is the shallow ship when Mai.ko is canon, but we’ll get into Mai.ko later. Second, kindly read the 2k words I wrote here about how Zutara connect with and understand one another on a far deeper level than any romantic relationship in the show, and if it’s “dark and intriguing” for two characters to have parallel character foundations and journeys, to support and comfort each other, and forge a relationship based on mutual respect and trust… sign me up, y’all.

(Also, yeah Zuko and Katara look good together. Sorry you can’t say the same about the mother and son, or the emo goth wannabes).

2. Zutara would be toxic because all they’d do is fight.

Zuko and Katara fought (physically) for much of the series because, shocker, they were on opposing sides of a war. They didn’t have petty fights for no reason (*ahem* Maiko), they were literally enemies, and it was that history that drove the two (2) big emotional fights they had in the whole series.

The first time they “fight”, Katara is yelling at Zuko in the Crystal Catacombs (Book 2: The Crossroads of Destiny) about how evil he is for chasing the Avatar and makes a bunch of generalizations about him. Then Zuko gets pissed and yells back and they blow up into a giant argument – oh wait, what’s that? She opens up to him? He sympathizes with her? She immediately stops being hostile the minute he reaches out?

The second Zuko and Katara see each other as people and not enemy combatants, they instantly connect. Katara apologizes for yelling at him and the interaction that follows is tender, open and vulnerable, with both Zuko and Katara genuinely listening to and bonding with one another. Toxicity? 404 Error: Page Not Found

The next and last time they “fight” is in the Southern Raiders, following Katara’s hostile treatment of Zuko from the moment he joined the Gaang. First of all, Katara’s anger here is entirely justified because Zuko betrayed her personally. The rest of the group hadn’t been vulnerable with Zuko or trusted that Zuko had changed, so none of them were hurt by Zuko’s decision to side with Azula. Katara, however, had genuinely believed in Zuko, offered to help him, and opened up about her deepest hurt to him – and he’d thrown it back in her face.

Zuko accepts Katara’s anger without complaint, knowing that he deserves it, and works to earn Katara’s forgiveness. He teaches Aang firebending, helps Sokka to rescue his father from prison, and fights Azula to let the rest escape. When he confronts Katara in the Southern Raiders, it’s because he genuinely wishes to understand why she still mistrusts him despite everything he’s done to prove his sincerity. He’s frustrated but genuinely trying to make amends and wants to know what Katara needs in order to accomplish that.

Both of these fights stem from legitimate grievances Katara has against Zuko, mistakes he’s made that he does need to atone for. However, what’s more interesting is the way Zuko reacts to Katara’s anger both times. He doesn’t mindlessly yell at her, get defensive, or escalate the situation. In the catacombs, he is sullen and moody until she reveals the true depths of her pain, at which point his own anger bleeds away and he reaches out to her with genuine compassion. In TSR, he is calm and contrite, willing to listen and making the effort to understand where she’s coming from so he can resolve the issue. (So toxic, amirite?)

Given that the majority of Katara’s anger at Zuko in the series stemmed from either his position as her enemy, or her hurt over his betrayal, I find it very hard to believe that they would ever “fight” on a similar scale in a future where they got together – a future where both of these conflicts no longer exist. Their canonical approach to disagreement sees them both willing to apologize, to work things out, and to try and understand each other, making it likely that any arguments they do have would be resolved in a healthy manner. Moreover, after Zuko and Katara have put their past behind them for good and established their friendship, they never fight again – and, in fact, grow closer.

Their intimacy and connection, the similarities in their personalities and motivations, and the evidence of their canonical response to disagreement, especially Zuko’s (a desire to understand and a clear evaluation of the situation to find a solution) is more than enough proof that this argument against Zutara is, frankly, bullshit.

(And if we want to talk about fighting, guess what Kat.aang and Mai.ko are doing in much of book 3? *looks pointedly at The Beach, The Southern Raiders, The Ember Island Players, Sozin’s Comet and the multiple unresolved arguments dropped in favour of a last-minute kiss, because that definitely solves everything.)

3. Zutara is a colonizer/colonized or oppressor/oppressed ship.

I’ve disproved this (factually untrue) argument in this post but to add on: Zuko turned traitor against his country, at threat to his own safety, and risked his life multiple times to bring the regime to an end because he knew he was on the wrong side of the war. Zuko fought against his own family and nearly died to protect Katara. Zuko and Katara, together, helped to overthrow Fire Nation imperialism and bring about a new era of peace. No true colonizer has ever, or would ever, do that.

Should Zuko and Katara get together, they would do so after the war. As the daughter of a national leader and a war hero, Katara would likely hold just as much power as Zuko, if not more, given that the Fire Nation is now in a position where it must offer reparations and concessions to the other nations. She would be entering the relationship as an equal and would, in fact, gain additional power by becoming Fire Lady, not subjugate herself under a tyrannical regime.

4. Katara hates Zuko/Katara is hostile to Zuko/Katara doesn’t care about Zuko and so she would never fall in love with him.

I see we’re just watching the show with our eyes closed now, lmao.

Even when they were on opposing sides of a war, Katara offered to use her special spirit water to heal Zuko’s scar. Even when she still hadn’t forgiven him, Katara reached out and put herself in danger to save Zuko’s life by pulling him onto Appa’s saddle. (Book 3: The Southern Raiders). Katara and Zuko’s entire relationship arc in Book 3 is based on the fact that they formed a genuine connection in the catacombs.

And once Zuko gains her forgiveness? Katara shows him nothing but unconditional love, trust and acceptance. She throws herself into his arms when she forgives him (Book 3: The Southern Raiders), banters with him, looks worried for him and tries to comfort him (Book 3: Ember Island Players). She fights by his side readily, invites him to join the group hug, and teases him about his baby pictures (Book 3: Sozin’s Comet Part 1). She notices that he’s frightened about facing Iroh, and encourages and supports him with a loving, tender smile on her face (Book 3: Sozin’s Comet Part 2).

She agrees to go with him on what may well be the last day of their lives, reassures him, and trusts his judgement completely when he wishes to fight Azula himself (Book 3: Sozin’s Comet Part 3). She looks absolutely horrorstruck when he sacrifices himself for her, screams his name, and immediately tries to run to him, completely forgetting about the powerful firebender in her path. She cries from pure joy when she’s able to heal him, and then stands by his side in support as they look upon a defeated Azula (Book 3: Sozin’s Comet Part 4).

Whether you see that as platonic or romantic, it is utterly undeniable that Katara loves Zuko very, very much.

5. Katara would never want to be Fire Lady because she hates the Fire Nation.

One of Katara’s major arcs is understanding that the Fire Nation is not all-consuming evil, that it is worth saving and worth helping, and it is solely those in power and their militaristic ideology that is to blame, not the people or the land. Katara never shows an ounce of discomfort in the FN, actually enjoys FN climate, risks her safety and the invasion itself to help its people, and appears excited to wear FN clothes, but I guess that was just a figment of my imagination.

6. Katara would have to give up her culture to become Fire Lady.

Firstly, someone kindly explain to me what exactly it is that Katara would have to sacrifice about her culture. She can’t dress in blue anymore? She can’t eat Water Tribe food? She can’t wear her hair loops? What aspects of her culture, exactly, would Katara have to “give up” in the Fire Nation?

Secondly, since this argument is so concerned about Katara’s culture, let’s look at what happens to her in canon – oh wait, two out of three of Katara’s children show absolutely no connection to their SWT roots? Her oldest son spends his whole life wishing he were an airbender and giving no fucks at all about his waterbending heritage despite the fact that, as the child of a mixed family, he should have valued both cultures equally? Huh, ya don’t say.

Before you say the same would have happened to Zutara, let me point out that Zuko’s arc is about unlearning this exact ideology (that one nation is more important than others) whereas Aang, at the end of the show, still prioritizes Air Nomad ideals over those of the other nations (refusing to kill Ozai because of Air Nomad pacifist values), despite being the Avatar. Yeah I see why Katara’s culture barely got a passing mention in that family.

7. Zutara had no canon romantic build-up, and Katara is just supposed to be Zuko’s surrogate little sister.

Sure, Zuko and Katara expressed no explicit romantic interest in one another in canon, but it is entirely wrong to say there was no romantic build up. Many of Zuko and Katara’s scenes together are full of romantic subtext and framing, which the writers and animators left in for some reason (cough they were supposed to be canon):

Zuko draping a betrothal necklace around Katara’s neck (Book 1: The Waterbending Scroll). The exact same message would’ve been communicated if he’d just dangled it before her, but instead the animators went to the extra trouble of creating a scene where he holds it up to her throat despite knowing full well that it was a betrothal necklace, and the implications that came with that

Katara touching Zuko’s scar (Book 2: The Crossroads of Destiny). Seriously, what the fuck is this romantic ass framing for a non-canon ship lmfao Zuko closing his eyes to lean into Katara’s touch? Katara’s thumb resting on his lips? The soft, swelling emotional music in the background? It was entirely unnecessary for them to even make contact when they could have just ended the scene with Katara saying “I can heal you” and Zuko nodding to give her permission before they get interrupted, but the writers chose to give them the most intimate scene in the whole show and then went ah yes! such platonic besties :)

Zuko covers Katara’s body with his own to protect her from rocks (Book 3: The Southern Raiders) in a perfect example of the Suggestive Collision trope, which is then followed by the Please Get Off Me trope, both of which are used specifically to create romantic tension. Really feeling the sibling vibes here guys

Zuko and Katara exchange the classic “ew wtf there’s no way I would ever fall in love with you” awkward look (Book 3: The Ember Island Players), used in literally every romcom ever to communicate denial of actual romantic feelings

Zuko pushes Aang out of the way to sit next to Katara, and Katara gives him a side glance before tucking her hair behind her ear (Book 3: The Ember Island Players), in a perfect set up for a love triangle. This is then furthered when Aang becomes jealous at the idea of Zutara in the play, even though Zuko and Katara had expressed no explicit romantic interest in each other at this point

Katara is conveniently “confused” right after watching the play (Book 3: The Ember Island Players) where she expressed romantic interest in Zuko and none at all in Aang. If she did love Aang shouldn’t this have been the point where she realized it? Also, this is the first time Aang and Katara talk about their kiss at the invasion despite it being six whole episodes ago? When they literally had a big chunk of time alone while Sokka and Zuko were at the Boiling Rock to have this discussion?

Zuko and Katara being framed almost identically to Sokka and Suki, the established canon couple, throughout the four-part finale

Zuko and Katara blush and fervently deny being romantically involved (Book 3: Sozin’s Comet Part 2) in a classic illustration of the She Is Not My Girlfriend trope (TV Tropes even points out that this is particularly common on shows where kids and preteens are the main target audience... interesting), which is usually meant to imply that there is, in fact, genuine romantic feelings present

THAT. FUCKING. LIGHTNING. SCENE. The sudden slow-motion, the dawning horror on Zuko’s face, the slow, sad violin music in the background, the desperate race to intercept the lightning before it got to Katara, the long, drawn-out, dramatic NOOOOOOO! as he literally jumps in front of her, the zoom in to Katara’s face of utter horror as she realizes what has happened to Zuko? All of it ties into the classic Taking the Bullet trope, making use of every visual storytelling trick to communicate romantic love. Zuko valiantly struggles to get to Katara, and Katara screams his name and runs to him with her hand outstretched like every cheesy romantic movie death you’ve ever seen. There is romantic coding plastered all over this damn scene, and if you don’t believe me, just substitute Sokka in Zuko’s place and tell me that doesn’t feel like we took a right turn into sweet home Alabama.

If you are going to include this many hints at romance to fool your audience into thinking that a ship will become canon, you cannot then *surprised pikachu face* when people actually think the damn ship should’ve been canon, especially when backed up by emotional intimacy, beautiful symbolism, narrative parallels and character and thematic significance.

#zutara #zutara meta #the official zutara dissertation #we are officially done with the zutara section now yall #coming up next: kat.aang salt aplenty #anti kataang #anti maiko

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miss-sweetea-pie · 5 months

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I read a blog about preferred atla ship by one poster (definitely an anti) that puts zutara at the bottom of list because of ‘zutarians’ 🙄 without even tryna understand the ship per se. What do you think of these people? Maybe they’ve been clocked by zutarian/s by attacking the zutarian page and they cant accept that they lost the discourse?

Yeah, I definitely think it’s just antis trying to put blame on the fans. it pretty much happens in all fandoms. so why I think some people might not like zutarian’s or fine them off putting is because some of us can be snarky. I honestly don’t think that’s a bad thing. The few time I’ve ever seen really snarky post is when an antis says “zuko is a colonizer” “he’s evil” or they call the real person bad names or “zuko and katara are toxic” “you just want to sleep with zuko” and a lot of the shippers are tired of the same old arguments so you get snark.(I do knowledge tone is not always easy to read). My own blog is anti k.ataang and if I walked into their space and said same crazy stuff about how they having mommy fantasy (lol idk I don’t actually think that) I would get jumped on and I would kind of deserve it. sometimes it really feels like they are playing the victim. Like “the mean old zutarian bullied me.” if you ask questions in good faith and are curious I’m sure most of us will explain zutara. I literally can’t shut up about it.

My second opinion is if someone really likes something they should just like it. Why base it off of the fandom or what people will think of you. It’s so much more fun if you can separate your interests from the fandom. I love Atla but I don’t like the fb group but that didn’t cause me to dislike atla all of a sudden. I used to be insecure of my interest, so I can sympathize with people who are just trying to please others. I use to do that but It’s so freeing once you Just enjoy what you enjoy unapologetically.

#zutara #atla fandom critical #atla fandom salt #anti kataang #just to be safe!#people can have their opinions #but hopefully it their own opinions #zutara fandom #is the zutara community too snarky?? 🤔

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longing-for-rain · 6 months

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what exactly is Aang's toxic masculinity that you're talking about? there are no examples of such behavior on his part in the show. he is not an ideal person, he is a child who sometimes behaved incorrectly, just like all the other children in the show (Katara, Toph, Sokka), and this is normal.

in addition, we see how he regrets some of his wrong actions and gets better, while Zuko does not regret his toxic behavior, doesn't apologize and doesn't face the consequences of his behavior (racist jokes about Aang, demands that Katara forgive him as if he has the right to her forgiveness, an attack on Aang to "teach him a lesson" and many other things).

Hi anon, thanks for the ask! This is a very good illustration of what I was talking about in this post when I mentioned that I feel toxic men are overlooked more often for appearing “nice” than they are for being conventionally attractive.

No examples of toxic behavior in the show? What do you call this then?

I know what I (and the law) call it:

But you see, he’s “nice” right? This is just a misbehaved child, as you put it? Yah, no. He knew better and still did it because he was possessive; this whole interaction started because he was jealous that an actress playing Katara was interested in men other than him. And the show proceeded to frame the situation in a way that made Aang sympathetic, despite being the aggressor and the one behaving irrationally. How much more “toxically masculine” can you get than that? But he put on a flower crown once so we’re supposed to think he’s a soft uwu feminine boi (even though he was absolutely enraged that a female actress played him).

I also find it very interesting that you describe Katara and Sokka as “children” while Zuko is omitted from that list despite being the same age. Are you admitting you agree he’s more mature, or are you admitting that you hold him to different standards?

But, anyways. You asked about toxic behavior on Aang’s part, which I’ll get further into now that the most egregious example is out of the way.

Let’s break down what you consider unforgivably toxic behavior on Zuko’s part and compare it to Aang’s behavior in similar situations.

1. “Racist” jokes

I’m guessing this is made with reference to the “Air Temple preschool” comment. How exactly is this racist? In context, Aang is the one trying to force his beliefs on others, and Zuko makes this comment to a) tell him to back off and b) point out that Aang is, in fact, a child who doesn’t have any business telling Katara how to feel.

This point is particularly interesting to me, because it implies that the simple fact that Zuko doesn’t agree with the philosophy of Aang’s culture makes him racist. By this logic, Aang is also racist against Katara’s culture, because he clearly disagrees with her philosophy and is openly telling her that his culture is morally virtuous over hers. And well. That’s even more believable considering Aang’s previous reactions to Water Tribe culture.

Ah, yes. Playing with a cultural artifact like it’s a toy because you were upset about not being the center of attention for once, and telling everyone how disgusting you think cultural food is, what great ways to show the supposed love of your life how much you respect her culture!

I know your response to this point would be something like “uwu but he’s a kid he didn’t knowww” ok well. The same logic can be applied to any alleged “racism” on Zuko’s part.

2. “Demanding” forgiveness

Zuko: What can I do to make it up to you?

Ah, yes. How demanding of him. He’s clearly so self-centered and only thinking about his own values and agenda here.

It’s not like he…

…told his friend how she’s allowed to process her grief and try to impose his own morals…

…or demanded to know if his crush liked him back, wouldn’t accept “no” as an answer, and forced a kiss on her…

…or told an abuse victim he was wrong to want to kill his abusive father for trying to commit a genocide…

…oh, um. Yeah. Sorry, but after actually watching the show it’s very clear to me which character doesn’t seem to regret or see the flaws in any of his actions at the end of the show, which is when all of these examples took place.

3. Training in the finale

“Attacking Aang to teach him a lesson” … wow, that’s a very dishonest way of phrasing that situation. I’m impressed, I have to say. I’ve seen lots of dumb takes from Aang stans over the years but this is a new one.

Well, luckily I actually watched the scene in context, so my reaction was the same as all the other characters’ reactions in canon when they learned the context behind this “attack”:

They agree with him. Yeah. Obviously, when nobody is taking training seriously when the world is about to literally go up in flames, you might need to do something to get their attention.

“But it was dangerous!” you might argue. Well… yeah. When magic and bending is in the equation, training in the Avatar universe has been shown to be somewhat dangerous at times. As an example, from this very same episode, Toph very nearly smashed Sokka with a giant flaming rock. That was way closer to hurting someone than Zuko was in this incident. If you’re going to fault characters for making their training exercises too dangerous, I guess Toph is mega cancelled.

Now back to Aang. What was his reaction in this situation? How did he react to the end of the world being days away? He ran away with absolutely no plan. Just like he did at the very beginning of the show.

I mean, think about it. This is a critical flaw (and toxic trait) in Aang that is literally never addressed, because he starts and ends the show the exact same way: he’s faced with a problem, he runs away from it, then he’s saved by an in-universe equivalent of an Act of God. Wowie, such great character development. Not fixing your core flaw and having a mythical plot device materialize into existence to solve your problems for you. Aang’s whole arc is a big blah, because the writing fails to address any of his flaws or have him meaningfully question any of his values.

Meanwhile, Zuko has consistently been a fan favorite because he’s the opposite. His flaws are meaningfully addressed, he does admit he’s wrong and fix his flaws, and his character shows a critically acclaimed change throughout the show. His arc is written so well that despite being a cartoon character, Zuko is widely considered the poster child for a good redemption arc across all forms of media.

So anyways, miss me with the double standards… there is a reason why Zuko is the fan favorite, and it’s not just his abs 🔥

#fandom salt #meta #zuko #katara #aang critical #canon critical #atla #zutara #anti kataang #ask #anon

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yourhighness6 · 20 days

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I can't remember where I saw this but there was this post I saw a while ago about how if zutarians "really wanted to engage in media analysis they would ship zvkaang" and I just... Ugh.

For one, the age difference is gross to me, especially considering a lot of anti-kat@ang zutara arguments center around the fact that Aang was not mature enough to be in a relationship based on the way he treated Katara, and pointing out that Katara is considerably more emotionally mature than Aang throughout the series. Shipping Aang and Zuko, who remember are canonically twelve and sixteen throughout the series, may be okay for a lot of chronic anime fans (from my understanding anime has huge age gaps like that all the time) but a large age gap is basically the first thing that puts me off of a ship. It's the same thing with ships like tokk@ and zvtoph and sokk@ang. A two year age difference is fine for high schoolers, but four years is really, really pushing it, especially when you consider that Aang would be fourteen when Zuko is eighteen.

And if that weren't disqualifying enough, whereas zutara has a truly incredible amount of romantic coding from the music used in certain scenes to small gestures such as them reaching for each other in the final agni kai and Katara's thumb on Zuko's lips in the crystal caves scene to the "she's not my girlfriend!", a common romantic trope being used several times between them, zvkaang has no romantic coding. They honestly remind me of that "platonic tension" textpost that was making the rounds a while ago. That being said, I do understand that "chemistry" and "romantic coding" are fairly relative concepts, but it definitely isn't heteronormativity that makes people see zutara instead of zvkaang as romantic (and although I also ship zvkka to a lesser extent the same can kind of be said there).

Anyway, with a weird age difference and zero romantic coding, that, in my opinion, kind of derails the ship, but its also worth mentioning that the original post's only argument seemed to be that just because Zuko and Aang are narrative foils, it makes sense that they should be romantically involved, which frankly, isn't a very good argument, especially when you consider that Zuko and Azula are also narrative foils and siblings. Narrative foils come in many forms, and come to think of it, I don't think I ship narrative foils from any show I've ever watched. The parallels between zutara often specifically highlight how they might suit each other romantically, and fit with the show's themes of balance.

This is just my opinion, and certainly not meant as a callout for any zvkaang shippers, especially those who are zutara and zvkaang shippers, I just felt it necessary to debunk the idea that if zutarians actually cared about literary analysis, they would ship zvkaang. It's just another half-assed, poorly thought out way to delegitimize zutara shippers and pretend that the ship has no canon basis, while in reality, anyone with an objective eye for media analysis can see that zutara is by no means a ship to be ignored.

#atla #avatar the last airbender #zutara #fandom salt #anti zukaang #anti zukka #anti kataang #emmie babbles

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