#ml critical | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

ilikekidsshows · 4 months

Text

The Totally Spies-ification of Adrien

Okay, it's been long enough that I can actually discuss how Adrien's slavery is depicted in the show without anger-fueled exaggerations and hyperbole. I want to discuss how Miraculous treats Adrien's slavery very flippantly and how it is, like everything in this show post-retool, all about Marinette. The show has a lot of stuff that hints that the writers intend for Adrien to be viewed a very certain way. I believe the writers made Adrien a slave for Marinette’s benefit and I will explain how I came to this conclusion.

I’ve joked before about how Astruc has worked on Totally Spies, “one of the kinkiest cartoons ever made”. I’d like to tackle this idea and how it relates to Miraculous more seriously. I’d like to tackle the topic of titillation and how it relates to how this show approaches slavery with such flippancy. My claim is that Adrien being a slave is not meant to be horrifying, which is why the story doesn't treat it as such; it's meant to be titillating.

I usually don't use Read Mores, since they can lead to broken links later, but this is really long. Strap in, folks.

Titillation for the context of this analysis means “content with the intention to excite romantically or sexually”, basically it’s about “kinky” stuff. The purpose of talking about sexuality in relation to Miraculous is not to paint the writers as some kind of fiends, but to present the fact that many teenagers are curious about romance and sex and will think about sex unprompted. This means titillating content in cartoons doesn’t even need to be related to sex to be titillating. And Astruc has a history of putting titillating stuff in his work, with Totally Spies being a very notable example of how you can include non-sexual titillating content in a kids’ show.

It all comes down to expected audience reactions. Adrien is meant to be sexy. I don’t mean that in a “the writers think this is sexy” way, but a “the writers think the projected audience of straight teenage girls will think this is sexy” way. He gets put into bondage three times in ‘Copycat’, ‘Anti-Bug’ and ‘Reverser’ and all three times the camera seems to like to show him off. He is meant to be an object of attraction for the audience. The people criticizing this show have been pointing out how Ladybug's costume accentuates her butt for years, but this is not something that occurs with just Ladybug. When he isn't posing for the viewers, Cat Noir gets whacked around by Akuma’s a lot, but a lot of the time it ends with him in a prone position that is also titillating, in ‘Pixelator’ it goes as far as having his butt jut out. However, the idea that Cat Noir is the one who gets hit when an Akuma needs to show off how dangerous they are is also part of the power dynamic where Marinette or Ladybug gets to show off, so it’s not purely for titillation, which is why other examples, like ‘Stormy Weather’ are more comedic.

It’s likely that Adrien-as-Adrien doesn’t get to participate in the show’s slapstick much, since that aspect of the character is presented as the perfect beauty, a role usually reserved for female characters who only ever get a little bit flustered or banged up to make sure they keep looking attractive. Marinette screams "waack" and runs face first into a wall in the same episode where the silliest thing Adrien gets to do is sneeze (Mr Pigeon). Adrien is meant to be attractive, sexy, titillating, in different ways in his different forms. As Cat Noir he is more active and more sexy, as Adrien he’s more passive and pretty, much like how female love interests can fall into these categories. It’s the Betty and Veronica dichotomy; in the Archie franchise Betty and Veronica are shown as the wholesome and sexy romance options and the reason the writers go out of their way not to resolve the love triangle is to keep the appeal of these both options going. People’s tastes differ, so it would alienate some audiences to pick one over the other. With Miraculous they solved the problem by having the two romance options be the different identities of a single character.

Frankly, as of the season five finale, Adrien is approaching “sexy lamp” levels of replicating sexist ways of writing a female character but just changing the gender. What else do you call him lying on the floor in despair while his love interest gets his superpowers and uses them to beat up his abusive father, while somehow being perfectly fine and happily kissing Marinette later after said father is dead and gone? Adrien’s trauma is debilitating when it serves the writers’ purposes, but stops being a problem as soon as they need him to smile and look pretty. The main reason Adrien’s trauma is so inconsistent is so that he can act as Marinette’s trophy so that Marinette has somebody to kiss in the final shot. If Adrien was despairing about not being good enough for her, or grossly crying about being an orphan, Marinette wouldn’t have a fun time kissing him. And if Marinette isn’t having fun, the members of the audience projecting onto her aren’t having fun either.

Speaking of how Adrien’s depiction relates to Marinette, here comes the controversial part of this post: while Marinette is not depicted as a literal slave owner in-story, narratively, she is very much treated as Adrien's owner from a meta perspective. We, the viewers, are meant to see Adrien as Marinette's property, and the twist of Adrien being a part of a slave race in a dynamic where Marinette holds all the cards is meant to be a good thing. We have been primed to view everything about Adrien to actually be about Marinette, because Marinette is the center of the universe of Miraculous and Adrien belongs to her because he’s the main character’s love interest. Adrien being revealed to be a slave that Marinette could control but then chooses to “merely” manipulate is meant to be glorifying to Marinette and titillating to the viewer. I will elaborate.

Marinette has been incredibly possessive of Adrien since day one and she is only occasionally depicted as being in the wrong about this, when she goes too far by the show’s standards. She stalks Lila and Adrien whenever she sees them hanging out together and she’s unreasonably jealous of Kagami. The only time she is depicted as being in the wrong is not when she's sniffing Adrien's pillow after breaking into his room, but when she actually bullies Kagami out of jealousy, and even that is depicted as more of an unfortunate misunderstanding than Marinette actively doing something wrong. Marinette is more sympathetic towards Kagami when she finds out she and Adrien aren't as close as she thought, that Kagami’s pursuit of Adrien is more hopeless than hers. Basically, Marinette is only in the wrong because Kagami isn't a threat, not because she was doing anything wrong by bullying her to defend her “territory”.

This gets flipped near the end of the season, though. When Adrien and Kagami do start dating, it's depicted as this big tragedy even more so than Master Fu losing his memories. Master Fu going missing is an afterthought, while Adrien choosing someone else over Marinette is the big “darkest hour” moment of the season three mid-finale, the cliffhanger moment of her crying in Luka’s arms while all hope is lost. Marinette isn’t directly crying about this, she is crying from “all the pressure”, but Marinette breaking down happens immediately after a scene of Kagami leaning in to kiss Adrien that has a somber dirge playing in the background. The first part of the finale has everything going wrong at the end; Master Fu is missing, Chloé gets willingly Akumatized, Marinette breaks down, and Kagami leans in to kiss Adrien. These scenes being put closely together is telling us that these are all bad things to happen.

Adrien ending up with Marinette is a given, but it's also taken for granted. Every girl with an interest in Adrien is depicted as an antagonist, while Marinette can do whatever she wants in pursuit of Adrien and will still be morally correct. Chloé and Lila, even Kagami to a degree, are villainized for their attraction to Adrien in a way Nathaniel, Luka or Zoé are not with their attraction to Marinette. Chloé and Lila are full-blown villains while Luka and Zoé are some of the most selfless members of the cast. Kagami is aggressive and socially awkward in a way that is used to justify Marinette's initial distrust and dislike of her (in ‘Ikari Gozen’ Alya voices her pity towards Marinette for having to spend time with her) while Nathaniel is just the pitiful bullied loner who’s still a liked member of the class friend group. Girls who want Adrien are bad for trespassing on Marinette’s territory and trying to “steal” something that “belongs” to Marinette.

The writers thinking Adrien belongs to Marinette is also not just subtext. Later in season five, when Marinette and Adrien finally start dating, Marinette even outright states that Adrien “kinda does a little” belong to her when she’s scared that Zoé has a crush on him. The fumbling of the line means that the writers are aware of how toxic it is to consider your partner your property, but they want to include that sentiment anyway, because that’s how they view the situation. Marinette’s boyfriend is her property and other people can’t even look at her property. ‘Emotion’ continues on this increased possessiveness by having the entire Marinette plot happen because she can’t conceive Adrien keeping things from her, because he isn’t allowed privacy from her while Marinette lying to Adrien (or Cat Noir) is a show staple.

This same attitude of Adrien not being allowed to have romantic options outside of Marinette has also been in the fandom for years. Every time a new female character was introduced, there was a worry that she’d “try to steal Adrien from Marinette”. Marinette and Adrien are endgame, the writers know this and the fandom knows this. The characters don't know this, but it doesn't matter because Adrien was already seen as Marinette's (future) boyfriend even back in season one when he barely knew her. And this attitude the writers and audience have is extended to the characters more and more as the show goes on, as almost every single character becomes an Adrinette shipper in support of Marinette in season five, while no one thinks to ask Adrien what he thinks about this. Only once, in ‘Desperada’ did Alya suggest that Adrien could make his own choice on who to date, but it was implied the choice should be Marinette specifically (Marinette smiles at this, while Kagami frowns). The cast is lucky the writers have decided Adrien already is Marinette's, or he’d be really uncomfortable.

Season five episode ‘Pretension’ goes as far with this as having Marinette basically ask Gabriel for permission to be with Adrien, convinced that she and Adrien can be together with no problems if she can just get him to approve of her. And then Gabriel tells her he’s promised Adrien to Kagami. You know, like a piece of property women were treated as before women were allowed to live without a man to control them. The finale then ultimately does have Gabriel agree to hand Adrien over to Marinette by dying and leaving her in charge of Adrien. Just because she uses the privilege to do some things for Adrien’s benefit doesn’t make what happened any less of a patriarchal transaction. In fact, the writers wrote it that way on purpose, with the knight and princess parallels they set up between Marinette and Adrien earlier in the show being something they are prominently proud of (the “reverse fairytale” as they put it). Adrien is the princess the dashing hero Marinette gets to earn with her feats of bravery; he’s handed to her like a piece of property and Marinette is too happy with her acquisition to even be outraged on Adrien’s behalf. And Adrien wasn’t even allowed to know about any of this, instead it gets handled solely between Marinette and Gabriel, like his opinion on the matter didn’t even matter. And why would his opinion matter, since he already is ready to promise himself to Marinette, even as the writers deny him the agency to actually make such a promise.

The goal of making it obvious that Adrien is cool with being objectified like this is probably why they make Adrien so obsessed with Marinette in season five, constantly repeating her name to himself and saying stuff like: “I can’t stop thinking about you” in ‘Pretension’. They need to drive it home to the audience exactly how okay Adrien is with everyone forcing him to be with Marinette. After all, you can’t force the willing. As of ‘Confrontation’, Adrien’s official goals for the future are: “I love Marinette Dupain-Cheng.” I guess, from the perspective of the writers, the childhood dream of wanting to be what his parents wanted from ‘Wishmaker’ wasn’t sad because of Adrien’s lack of agency; it was sad because he wasn’t forsaking all of his personal pursuits for Marinette specifically. As far as the writers are concerned, Adrien should only care about Marinette and nothing else.

This same entitlement is also present in Ladybug and Cat Noir's relationship. Every time Cat Noir is upset with Ladybug, like in Frozer, Glaciator, Syren, The New York Special or even Kuro Neko, they never talk about what caused it. This is especially blatant in cases where Ladybug has wronged Cat Noir personally, like Kuro Neko or the NY Special, where she never has to face up to what she did wrong because Cat Noir comes back because she “needs him”. Cat Noir will always come back to her without her having to do anything because she is the main character and she says she needs him. He exists for her and her needs. He exists for her; it’s just another way he’s hers.

Speaking of how Adrien is treated affects Marinette, even Adrien’s trauma actually belongs to her in the writing. I pointed out earlier that Adrien’s trauma shows up when the writers need to put him out of commission, but disappears as soon as he needs to be Marinette’s trophy, but it goes further than just inconsistency. The early seasons spend several episodes on how Adrien is being locked up by his father and unable to hang out with his friends and, between him and Marinette, Marinette is the one shown to be more upset and hurt by this. They don’t do this in every episode, as ‘The Bubbler’ actually does a phenomenal job of making Adrien’s upset actually about him, but the big point in ‘Glaciator’ is that Marinette is so upset that she can’t see Adrien that she accidentally leaves Cat Noir on read so he’s upset about that. Adrien is only upset because he didn’t get attention from Marinette, while Adrien’s literal abuse at the hands of his father is only important because it makes Marinette upset. Even Adrien himself gets in on this action in ‘Conformation’ when the writers go as far as having Adrien chastise himself of not being more worthy of Marinette’s love when his dad is once again busy ruining his life. Even Adrien himself makes his abuse about Marinette; him being abused is bad because it’s inconveniencing Marinette and inconveniencing Marinette makes him less worthy of her.

‘Cat Blanc’ is possibly the worst offender of all, though. This episode should be all about how Adrien is abused by Gabriel, culminating with Gabriel turning him into a monster that destroys the world. And yet, what is the episode actually about? It’s about Marinette. The worst thing that could happen to Adrien is about Marinette. Only Marinette gets to remember or even know about the possibility of Cat Noir getting Akumatized and only Marinette is traumatized by it happening. After all that the writers later dare to use this event that didn’t actually happen anymore, that Adrien doesn’t know about, to justify him giving his powers to Marinette, because he’s “scared of getting Akumatized” when something like that has never happened as far as he knows. But the writers had him reason this way anyway, because apparently the culmination of Marinette’s character development in the show means taking Adrien’s power as her own and then failing to win even with that at her disposal.

Another note about ‘The Bubbler’ that has to be pointed out is that it’s also the first example of Marinette being presented as good for Adrien simply because she treats him better than Gabriel. The final scene of Marinette giving Adrien his best birthday present yet and letting him think it comes from Gabriel is done to show how selfless Marinette is by letting Adrien keep thinking good things about his abuser. This idea that Marinette is morally good simply because she’s better than pond scum Gabriel is also present in the season five finale, where Marinette manipulates, gaslights and keeps important information from her abused slave boyfriend. Marinette is presented as being in the right because at least she didn’t literally control him with a magical geas like Gabriel did and gave him the object with which to do so (while notably not telling him what it does). Marinette will do the bare minimum of not taking literal ownership of Adrien and we’re meant to see her as a paragon of goodness for it, while she still has no respect for Adrien’s autonomy and hasn’t had any since the show started.

The way the Sentimonster “reveal” is handled shows this utter lack of respect for Adrien’s autonomy that the writers, and Marinette by extension, have. The reveal is not for Adrien, but for Marinette, just like every other piece of Adrien has been made to be about Marinette. Marinette gets to know and she gets to decide if Adrien gets to know, and she decides “no”. She will manipulate him and lie to him to keep him happy for herself, she will keep important information about him to herself that he might never find out if anything happens to her, because Adrien is hers and no one else’s and she has the right to make that decision because the world revolves around her because the world of Miraculous was created to be her playground. “Adrien” is just a toy on that playground for Marinette to play with as the writers see fit.

Now we’re coming back to Adrien’s role as the sexy, titillating love interest character that I talked about at the start of this essay. If Marinette granting Adrien the bare minimum of freedoms as a slave while manipulating him “for his own good” is meant to be a good thing, why is Adrien even a slave? Well, outside of the writers wanting to add a plot twist that doesn’t come with any messy plot they’d have to write about characters other than Marinette, Adrien being a slave is also meant to be titillating. What really is magical super slavery than very, very off the wall bondage and power play stuff? The idea that Marinette could rob her love interest of his free will with ease but won’t because she cares about him so much is very empowering in two different ways. It gives Marinette all the power in the relationship and it makes her out to be such a good person that even having ultimate power over another person won’t corrupt her. Adding to that, we have Adrien’s people pleaser abuse victim personality, which makes him fawn over the people he loves. If Marinette ever wanted to have control over Adrien, Adrien would give it to her of his own volition, no need for magical super slavery or unbreakable geases.

As I stated earlier, Marinette is meant to be the point of view main character the audience of teen girls projects themselves onto. So, really, Adrien’s slavery and abuse responses are all about that fantasy of having a cute boy you have all the power over but not needing to use it because the boy is so nice and devoted to you anyway. Adrien really is “perfect”, the perfect object of attraction, a being who technically has free will but whose free will you never have to take into account because he’s been designed and trained to value other people’s wants and needs over his own.

Marinette doesn't literally own Adrien within the story, but the writers make it very clear that they think she should. In fact, in all ways except the literal, she already does.

#ml critical #ml writing critical #miraculous ladybug critical #ml meta #ml salt #zagulous fandom #adrien agreste #just like with my 'adrien gets disrespected' post none of these things would be THAT bad by themselves #but it's this much stuff all at once

249 notes · View notes

vennyvenadito · 3 months

Text

The Fandom from Twitter scares me

Okay a really hate how Chloe being “racist” is enough for this people to say she is beyond redemption

Like how???

Yeah, be racist is a bad thing obviously but for character bad traits standards this is not the worst crime

At worst she is just ignorant

A lot of bully characters and even characters of her age the have done even worst than her were redeemed, if they can, so she

Also is hypocrite to say her age and trauma doesn’t excuse her but then you excuse Marinette and even Felix for their actions

And I would say it, I think Felix is even worst than Chloe

I’m sorry what???

Look me in the eyes and tell me, the Chloe from season 1 is the same as the 4 and 5 season

Like how???

She was a mean girl but not evil, just mean

And no, the writers didn’t fix her, Chloe suffered flanderization, her characterizations got over the place and acts way to out of character

How can this people say she doesn’t deserve a redemption when the show literally redeems an terrorist, a genocidal, a corrupt mayor and awful parents

If they can be redeem then a school bully also can

And if you still think just because a child is mean they are beyond redemption

Please, don’t have kids 💀

#miraculous ladybug #ml critical #chloe bourgeois #chloe deserves better #mlb salt

82 notes · View notes

m3nt4llyr4v3d · 1 month

Text

I loathe Andre Bourgeois

I hate this man so much, I hate his character, I hate how the narrative treats him, I hate how some of the fans treat him

I hate that I’m supposed to completely sympathize with a corrupt politician, but his daughter? The one he had the sole job of raising for most of her life, and obviously didn’t teach her how to act? Yeah, she’s awful, look at how she’s treating her poor father :(.

What’s that? He constantly abused his power? He literally tried to steal from Marinette’s family at some point? Erm, well he never wanted to be a politician in the first place! He had to give up his dreams cause of his awful wife :(. What do you mean he’s still intentionally using underhanded and illegal tactics to put certain laws in place, keep the public on his side, and win elections when he literally just shouldn’t do that? Well he gave up his power, so shut up!

What do you mean his constant abuse of power in his daughter’s name would literally enforce the idea that she can get away with literally anything without repercussions? No, she bullies him! What do you mean he still should’ve not indulged this since she was like, 7? Nah, she just bullied him then too! This makes perfect sense, now he doesn’t have to take a single ounce of responsibility for her parenting! That’s stupid and he should’ve been investigated by CPS literal years ago? Well Chloe’s gone, so the problem’s fixed, right? ————— I genuinely cannot believe of the fans are defending this man. I can get feeling sorry about the treatment he gets from his wife, but some of them literally try to absolve him of any and all parenting mistakes.

“Oh well, Chloe is old enough to know what she’s doing is wrong! It’s not anyone’s responsibility except hers! Everyone tried to reason with her, oh, and the one time he tried to discipline her, she said she’d call her mom! That means that he should literally never try, because she can do that!”

Except he fucking raised her like this. Him taking responsibility for the way he RAISED HER should be, I don’t know, getting her psychiatric help? Maybe actually setting boundaries? Disciplining her and making sure she doesn’t rely on his money or power? And her threatening to call her mom to complain? Do any of you genuinely think her mom is even going to answer that call? And even if you say it’s the threat itself, you should still absolutely be pinning this on Andre: he raised her to complain to him every single time she has any issue and to abuse his power constantly, this is a teaching he reinforced her entire life. She is taught to not take any responsibility and she harasses everyone because of this. She is taught to complain to someone in a higher power to fix/do everything for her. And when he does try, once mind you, to discipline her, she’s obviously not going to stop, she’s not going to reflect, because that’s not how she was taught to act.

Also the ridiculous double standard between people who completely him and not Chloe. Chloe’s mom leaving her and being verbally abusive for all of Paris to see doesn’t excuse Chloe’s actions, but I’m supposed to feel sad for Andre because Audrey is a terrible wife, and I’m just supposed to brush all his actions, including his fucking PARENTING, aside?? Not only that, people are saying that Chloe is old enough to know her actions are wrong therefore she’s not redeemable, but somehow her fucking dad is?? The grownass adult gets more sympathy? Absolutely ridiculous

You genuinely expect me to believe that I’m not supposed to feel anything other than pure vitriol towards Chloe, but sympathy towards that asshat? Get real

#ml salt #andre salt #ml chloe #ml fandom salt #this has honestly been on my mind since collusion #ml critical #ml criticism

59 notes · View notes

raedshadowlegends · 9 months

Text

Why Lore Olympus and Miraculous Ladybug are the Same Thing but in Different Fonts

Good evening, good day, hello and howdy. I am INCREDIBLY bored and I'm here to go on a nonsensical tangent about two pieces of media that I hate and have dedicated a vast amount of my free time to. This is all in good fun and all of my rudeness is intended to be satirical and/or comical unless indicated otherwise.

Now just to preface, if you know me then you know how much I dislike Miraculous Ladybug. Folks in my circle got to watch as I descended into madness writing a 64k word review on season 5. So I've spent an uncomfortable amount of time dissecting this show.

I have also spent an uncomfortable amount of time engaging with the shitshow that is Lore Olympus. And now my ass is gonna try and compare the two because there's a lot of shit going on here.

None of this is going to matter and it's all in good fun. Like I said, I am bored. And sometimes it's fun to compare stuff you hate.

Now let the insanity ensue. FP spoilers and MLB s5 spoilers below the cut btw.

To get a major difference out of the way, Miraculous Ladybug is a tv show. Lore Olympus is a webcomic.

But mediums aside, these two things still have a lot in common. So for the first comparison, I'd like to talk about the insecurity in both properties.

Insecurity

What I define as insecurity in this context is a piece of media that is too afraid to commit or adhere to a certain tone, story, style, etc. In short-- they don't know what they want to be.

Insecurity in Lore Olympus is a bit more obvious than with Miraculous so I'm gonna rant about that first.

Lore Olympus just straight up does not have a story to tell.

There are too many random ass plots being added and discarded on a whim for it to be a coherent story. A good way to explain it is kinda like this-- In this episode of LO, something cool new and interesting is set up and you have to keep reading to see what happens! And then nothing ever happens. Or it happens because the audience won't let the author forget so there's a half-assed attempt to wrap up that plot point.

LO is so insecure about what it is, it feels the need to add more and more to make it actually something. But what it is is a hollow story that lacks substance. So all of these new random plot points are kinda like bandaid solutions if that makes sense.

There are so many unfinished/under-utilized plot points that if you were to count out each and every one, you'd probably keel over dead before you finished. There's that many.

It's too insecure to commit to any one of them in the grand scheme of things.

I don't know how coherent all of that was so here's a shitty tl;dr

LO doesn't know what it wants to say anymore so it's just adding more shit to keep the reader "invested."

Yeah ok I think that makes more sense. As for Miraculous...

God. I fucking hate Miraculous.

It's insecure as hell and you can smell that shit from ten miles away. It's insecure with it's premise, I think.

If it just kept to the simple "monster-of-the-week" formula, I do not think I would have written so many words on it's fifth season.

Miraculous (apparently) had a grander story to tell beyond the "monster-of-the-week revert back to the status quo each episode."

But we don't see any of that in full swing till season 3, really. Which is a long ass time to get the ball rolling imo.

It's a little jarring to see the show go from the stupid kid status quo adventures to a heavy and emotional story??? And I say heavy and emotional with the most sarcastic tone possible because the only emotion I feel watching this shit is rage.

Despite wanting to make that shift to a serialized type of show, Miraculous was too scared to stray from the successful status quo format.

To explain a bit more I wanna talk about my review of the season.

While it is mostly filled with rude jokes and incomprehensible jargon, I bring up a lot of points in it regarding the state of things.

One of those things being the show's hesitancy to move the story along.

The fifth season was supposed to be a grand final battle and a conclusion to this story arc. But it was too scared to commit to that so there's way more episodes that are nothing but shipping fodder.

There are many episodes that season that just... feel the same. Just with different coats of paint. "Marinette is trying to date Adrien but she's awkward and clumsy and oh no! shenanigans ensue!" We've been doing this for 8 years.

If they want to tell a serialized story then they need to grow some balls and cut the shit we've seen a million times before.

Their insistence to stick to the status quo makes the writing exceptionally weak downright painful to sift through. It was too scared, too insecure, to stray from its formula.

That's a part of the reason why I think the season is paced so bad. There's so little time spent on the interesting parts of the story because they had to cram in as much shipping shit as possible. So by proxy, there was less time to tell a good story.

Both of these stupid ass properties don't know what they want to be. There are too many things being added and not enough balls to commit to any of them.

Now with both LO and MLB, we can all agree that the writing is pretty shit. Nothing new there. But shitty writing often bleeds into the characters and making them shitty by exposure. Almost like a spill of toxic waste, infecting anything near it and turning into a rotten pile of sludge and chemicals.

So yeah, the characters are ass as well. But I only wanna complain about the female leads for both of these things.

But just to mention Adrien and Hades, they are pretty similar. I won't go into detail but the short of it is, "Character with deep seated issues that could have been interesting, has a lot of potential, but is just kinda garbage in the end."

At least Adrien Agreste isn't monetizing death and has a bunch of shades in his basement doing his work.

Persephone and Marinette

So I always say that I don't like using the term 'Mary Sue' to describe a character. But as it turns out, I use that term a lot. So I'm not gonna lie about that anymore.

These two characters are Mary Sues.

Persephone first

Oh my god I hate Persephone a lot. She just ticks every box on my list of 'THINGS I HATE IN A CHARACTER.'

Which is funny because her character had a lot of promise and heart in the beginning.

I related to her a LOT when I picked up this comic before my frontal cortex developed. I related with her character and her struggles. Especially after the Apollo incident. That really stuck out to me. It was so powerful.

But all of those tiny things I liked about her character were stripped away. Her ambition to study in school? Poof, gone. Her charm? Not charming anymore. That kindness everyone in the story gushes about? I don't even think it was there in the first place.

Truth be told, I do need to reread this comic because the beginning is fuzzy as fuck in my walnut-sized brain. But I can tell you for certain that the way she was in the beginning is not who she is now.

And this isn't the case of a character going through an arc and developing and changing. She's just getting worse and the narrative treats it as a GOOD THING.

"Oh yeah, Persephone trashed Leuce's apartment instead of talking to her husband like an adult. She threatened to kill this nymph but you're supposed to find that endearing." Like, what??? I will not have a story try and get me to believe this is a good thing.

If this were a good story, Persephone's actions in that episode WOULDN'T BE REWARDED. But she's rewarded with sex for being a fucking psychopath towards a random nymph. Wow.

And that leads into my next point-- she can never be in the wrong ever.

AOW? Retconned, not her fault. It wasn't her fault she killed all those people. It's actually Eris' fault because she gave her wrath.

Trashing Leuce's apartment? She was in the right for that, apparently.

Killing people in a famine during the 10 year banishment? That's never explored, we just know she killed people, burned a library or something, and probably shot the president too. But it's fine, she's the good guy.

And most recently (and potentially the most frustrating);

Persephone causes winter.

Not her mother, Demeter, no fuck the myths. Persephone is the one who caused winter actually. AND SHE DID IT ON ACCIDENT SO TECHNICALLY IT IS NOT HER FAULT CAUSE SHE DIDNT MEAN TOOOO UWU She also probably killed a million flower nymphs in that snap freeze but its ok it doesn't matter.

WHAT?

WHAT THE FUCK? CMON NOW.

She's not going to receive any consequences for anything because she is just too perfect.

She's smarter than Athena, prettier than Aphrodite, better than her mother in every way, all the boys want her, she has a perfect body, she's pink, her eyes go red when she's angy, she has the most power of everyone in the world, she's a super rare fertility goddess, she has all the gifts, all the blessings, and none of the development.

It almost feels like a wattpad fanfic.

"My mom doesn't like me so she sold me to one direction and then I became queen of the underworld."

Yeah, I don't like her.

And the same can be applied to Marinette!

A character who is so blatantly perfect, the narrative fucking BENDS TO HER WILL.

She's a creepy ass stalker and has done some weird ass things to get close to this random famous white boy and it's all excused.

It's literally excused.

There is a rule about character backstories. They are supposed to provide an explanation for a character's behavior, not an excuse for it.

In season 5, episode 14 - Derision, we see a bit of Marinette backstory. Some stupid bullshit happens and Marinette essentially says she isn't going to say 'I love you' to anyone unless she knows literally everything about them.

She says a lot in that stupid ass scene but it's basically just saying that all of her stalking and creepy behavior is justified. Which it is not.

Marinette can do no wrong. The narrative won't allow it.

She's perfect in every way. And even when SHE is in the wrong, characters somehow find a way to apologize to her. Either that or she turns a situation about someone else into one about her self.

She's just the perfect character who ends up saving the world.

Fuck having Chat Noir face against his dad in the finale, Marinette has to girlboss all over the place and save the day but then actually lose because the "plot" demands it.

Oh yeah and she's probably never going to tell Adrien that his abusive dad was the villain they had been fighting for months. Do you think that's a good choice? I'll give you a hint; it is not.

It makes Marinette look like a HORRIBLE character but it's painted in a way that makes the viewer believe this is the right decision.

I don't think I need to get into specifics as to why that is wrong and disgusting.

If I had to make a prediction for this show going forward, she isn't going to tell him. It's going to be forgotten and she's going to be painted as the hero.

No flaws, no accountability, nothing.

Garbage character. Fucking hate it.

Both of these characters will never see consequences for their actions. Their bad actions are either excused or retconned out of existence. And that's not how you write a character btw. If you want them to be real, give them consequences. The world should not revolve around them. They should have flaws and issues that should be explored. But apparently that's too much work.

It's funny how both of these properties claim to be about feminism and somehow completely miss what feminism is

Miraculous thinks that feminism means "Girl power! Girls are better than guys in every way!" And Lore Olympus makes no attempt to be feminist at all. Women hate other women, and they don't get a lot of opportunities to explore and express themselves.

I could get into the whole purity culture shtick but that's a shitty rant for another day.

I've been ranting about this for a while and I got the big ones out of the way, methinks. I do want to get into the creators of both of these things but that is also a rant for another day.

Cause if I got into that now, we'd be here a while.

So let me just make a final comparison and wrap things up here. I don't think any of this makes a lot of sense but I hate both things and I'm passionate about it so I'm gonna keep rambling.

Miraculous Ladybug and Lore Olympus never attempt to grow as stories. They are both scared to try new things and to stick with it. Most of the time this results in rushed writing and horribly done characters.

It's so clear that both of these things are desperate to be something great but they just can't put in the work to get there.

Honestly, they both feel like the product of a team of yes-men. Bad decisions and errors slip by WAY too often and it's kind of embarrassing.

These are popular pieces of media and they have the resources to be great but they just aren't.

They're both too insecure to make something of themselves.

It's honestly really sad and I don't want this for either of these things. I want LO to be stunning and retell the myth of Persephone with the respect it deserves. I want MLB to be a serialized show with focus on the lore. Sure it can start as episodic but it can ease us into a deeper story and intrigue the viewer. But I want it to flesh out the world and be an entertaining experience.

It's sad but it's the way it is.

Who knows, maybe MLB season 6 will be good. And maybe LO will have a 4th season and it'll fix all the problems it has.

I dunno.

Thanks for reading this incoherent nonsense.

#This is a really random comparison between media so if you see this and are confused im so sorry #i got bored #anti lore olympus #lore olympus critical #anti lo #lo critical #unpopular lore olympus #unpopular lo #anti miraculous ladybug #ml salt #ml critical #ml criticism

149 notes · View notes

gryficowa · 3 months

Text

Do you remember how Sabrina took a photo of the injured Chloe in the first season and laughed at her?

Remember when Andre fired Roger and Sabrina had no reaction?

Remember when Sabrina stole Marinette's diary from her room?

Because I see that the fandom forgot about it and easily bought her a redemption arc, as a former scapegoat I am disgusted by it, Sabrina was not a victim, Sabrina was a torturer and she willingly participated in all this

Sabrina was a worse bully than Chloe herself, and she got a redemption arc when Chloe didn't get one because Thomas has a fucked up double standard (Like the fandom itself)

#ml fandom salt #ml writing salt #ml writers salt #marinette dupain cheng #miraculous ladybug #chloe bourgeois #thomas astruc #anti thomas astruc #thomas astruc salt #ml critical #ml writing critical

56 notes · View notes

miraculousdeservesbetter2024 · 11 months

Text

It’s something that Thomas thinks we’re obligated to like Zoe and think that she’s SUPERIOR to Chloe just for the mere fact that “she’s sweet”, and anyone who doesn’t “just doesn’t get it”.

But…

What has Zoe REALLY done to be entitled to our love?

Let’s just take away Chloe from this for a sec, just a sec, seriously. What really IS IT about Zoe that’s any better than Chloe, other than being sweet?

Listen, I LOVE a good sweet, caring, nice and kind character! I really do (probably even my favourite kind), but even I KNOW that there’s more to making a great character other than making them “sweet”. There’s more positive personality traits in the world than just being nice, especially when “being nice” should be the bare minimum? As bland as the miraclass is, they DO have their own personalities. It might not be complex, but they DO have one. Hell, EVEN SABRINA AND LUKA have more personality than Zoe does.

Giving a bland character EVERYTHING on a silver patter, especially if they just arrived in a series, is NOT character development nor adding character depth. And this is not me trying to put Zoe in a bad light or anything! I just legitimately want to know what’s so special about her for her to deserve automatic praise??? If he wants us to like Zoe, then we at least deserve to have something more from her than her just “being nice” and being a Chloe replacement.

Her being Marinette 2.0. is not enough.

#zoe lee #Zoe Lee salt #chloe deserves better #zoe deserves better #thomas astruc #mlb critical #ml critical #mlb salt #ml salt #miraculous ladybug #ml #mlb #miraculous tales of ladybug and chat noir #miraculous #miraculousbeezcentral #bee miraculous #ml vesperia #vesperia salt

218 notes · View notes

familyagrestefanblog · 5 months

Text

Clarification I definitely should have done ever since season 4 and the Ladynoir conflict started escalating, but hey, let's just get it out:

There are reasons why I'm harping down so badly on Miraculous' Girlboss feminism and defend Adrien as much as I do.

To get the feminist (in-universe) explaination out of the way first:

I would be lying if I said that I like the direction the show has taken Marinette's character and the story in general. But regarding her specifically I simply have to say that most of my problems with her are how she is written as Ladybug, Guardian, and especially leader & partner. Not in her civilian self. Hence why you won't find that alot on my blog, only when it contributes to the overarching double standards problem from s4 I take issue with.

I simply cant deny it, Ladybug is a kind of leader I just came to not be able to respect alot anymore in how she operates most things bc she doesn't really ever look passed how things look & stand for herself, and what SHE needs & wants. Marinette is a very low empathy person in the sense that she struggles putting herself in other people's positions, or remembers considering that at all.

But that's not the reason why I can't respect her as leader. I have ADD, that would be really hypocritical of me.

What leaves me unable to respect her as leader though (& honestly kinda even wanting Alya to take her position) is the fact that the show doesn't see much wrong with Maribug doing that.

They don't properly depict this as flawed leadership she actually NEEDS to grow out of by making up for her shortcomings by, for example, making other people her official co-leaders. Instead the show since s4 (& kinda s3) will proceed to put it's feminist foot down if Maribug isn't actually in the end 100% correct and "totally girlboss justified" in any given case - with CN & authorities specifically - no matter the context. Ergo she's barely ever truly improving her weakpoints in partnership skills for example & continues doing the same mistakes over n over.

like she genuinely would benefit from having Chat Noir as her co-leader too, not just Rena Rouge. But no. The neurodivergend low-empathy girl can't have a high-empathy boy co-leader bc apparently thats misogynistic now, huh ?

Again, I have ADD and I'm also a woman. In fact, I actually have alot in common with Maribug (hence why it hurt so much once s4 took her away from me), so forgive me when I still say: I am NOT going to lower my standards of my believe that neither of those aspects get to be an excuse on everyone else's expense regarding LEADERSHIP (which I do also am in the position of in my life).

And I repeat: LEADERSHIP. Not Marinette herself as a person necessarily & esp not her civilian life.

People always say that her critics wouldn't be so hard on her if she were a man, but I strongly disagree. In my experience, if Marinette were a boy people would actually draw a line nowadays and call out that Mariano is too stuck in his own head to be a good leader (& partner). And maybe even demand that he shouldn't be in that position anymore either at all or until he's in a better head space.

Bc with male characters people are actually drawing lines now in important factors when it comes to power & the accountability coming with it, bc in the end being in change means it ain't about you

Hence why e. g. Steve Rogers (Captain America) was then a fucking fugitive from the law when shit got real in the MCU. They had to do that bc of his leadership morality not being able to exist well within a corrupted & complex law system under fire and attack. My man's an amazing battle leader, but the MCU did VERY well leaving taking care of all kinds of social & political matters to Tony Stark. This kind of nuance ain't Steve's strength. Marinette & Steve are actually a EXTREMELY similar type of leader and it's interesting that I don't exactly vibe with him too much either in that regard, but like him as person the way I did Marinette. So for me it's definitely an issue with their type of leadership.

But the mainstream female leader characters are often still "too female" to get held to the same regular standards bc telling a female leader character in a complicated and not entirely beneficial situation & position 'yeah, it's sucks but you're not the center of the universe'' is now more often than not still "too mean/ sexist"

again, Steve was made an outlaw for a reason and you can bet if he had been a Stephanie people would have made all her struggles about sexism & called the 'outlaw leader' route after Civil War misogyny, merely bc "society doesnt respect women". This is whats happening with Maribug & it clashes with her leadership style.

Hence why there AREN'T ALOT of mainstream female leader characters. And if we get some, most of them are narratively defined by how powerful & in control they are for THEIR OWN BENEFIT and it being depicted as 100% right & just in general (like with Marinette) which goes against what a normal leader should be, so alot of people don't like them (ignoring the actual sexist people for a sec)

The first Wonder Woman movie for example was so well-received for a reason. They did it RIGHT (& may I please also recommend Wakanda Forever? Fuck, that movie was GOOD)

But yes, it's notably how Maribug treats Chat, who is supposed to be her partner and friend, that I take alot of issues with.

And yes, I would say the same if LB were male and CN female. Ladynoir is so rooted in toxic femininity that this "partnership" (or just the entire LS) the way it is could NOT exist today in gender bend. S4 and the s5 finale in particular are unthinkable in gender bend and they sold it as "justified female empowerment" & "unparalleled loving treatment" from Ladybug's side Chat Noir needed to learn to be GRATEFUL for.

All while, and I will never stop stressing this: the show has never stopped writing Marinette to treat Chat Noir as if he basically just spawns into existence once he puts on the mask. He's HALF a human being. Even once she falls in love with him in s5.

This is the fundamental and deep seeded problem of where my issues come from here. It never stands in question if Adrien views Marinette and Ladybug as full human beings, but the other way around that very much is the case. In whatever way it's depicted. Yes this is a line I draw, especially because of the whole Sentihuman thing.

I personally am alot more like Adrien regarding Friendship and partnership (or what his character initially started out). They are heavy & meaningful topics for me. So seeing Marinette being utilized to girlboss all that into the ground with Chat Noir, esp in s4, while she apparently barely ever even noticed anything wrong with how she treats him in the first place as she literally replaced him with Alya/ Rena in everything but name

cause buring him under a wall of secrets & lies meant she can still 100% benefit from his eternal devotion by letting him believe she's too alone to be a partner anymore AT ALL. (Kuro Neko onwards and then NEVER stopped letting him think she's just as alone as he is. NEVER. She's still doing it in s5 while leaving him 100% isolated which was then his demise in the s5 finale.)

and gives Alya the deluxe partnership entirely on his expense, while barely ever sparing him even the most basic thought in anything; & by "Risk" then literally having them switch status. Rena is her actual partner she fully treats that way and he's merely her favorite temp hero with no rights, which Rena was previously.

And the only reason why Chat was treated with something resembling to fairness or dignity again in season 5 (& finally wasn't a rag doll for her every little mood anymore...) was because Maribug plainly had no other choice and had her team & position of power taken away by force while Alya renounced for her own safety. And yet she's still treating him as half a human being even by the end of S5. AFTER her character development. He's Chat Noir and that's where his existence ends in her leadership & friendship. CN and Alya in s5 are literally 2 halves of ONE PARTNER.

All that was painful to watch to say the least. Bc it's imo honestly a disgrace to friendship and partnership. I can't put into words how ashamed I would be of myself if I treated someone the way Marinette treats Chat Noir (again, HALF A HUMAN BEING).

Much less a friend I claim to love dearly and don't want to loose (another thing the MCU did better regarding Steve's fall-out with Tony over Bucky... I should really make that comparison post why Steve works for me & Marinette doesnt)

Just the mere fact that Marinette in "Elation" even told Chat "It doesn't matter who's underneath your mask" is honestly outrageous.

Because thats simply what it is for me. If s4 & 5 Marinette were portrayed from a similar morality angle to Emonette in the Paris special I would have much less issues with her. Cause thats ironically an angle female characters barely get & is mostly used to redeem the broken bad boys with a hidden heart of gold™.

Double irony: s1-s3 actually DID put civilian Marinette often into that angle, hence why I really liked her, but then s4 suddenly said "well, her methods & actions really dont matter. She's wrong, but actually not really; ergo she should get rewarded in the end. Always. But with a few exceptions. Here n there she loses to claim otherwise. But actually the world just needs to learn how right & amazing she is."

She makes countless mistakes but often either doesn't really learn from them anymore or they just don't "count" bc that's 'what makes her quirky & loveable', so having any issues with her now means you hate women. And she's a very flawed leader but actually never did anything wrong. Ever. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I will be VERY blunt now: The moment you put a female character into the leader role the FEMALE aspect is supposed to be of secondary importance. And a leader, by the nature of the position, ALWAYS has to be questioned morally wise in my opinion bc of the fatal blindspots that will automatically occur in every leadership.

And it happened here too: Chat Noir's treatment. But they demanded that her being the (female) leader means she's OWED to treat him badly & gets to keep him as blindspot on HIS expense bc she doesn't like thinking about him existing as civilian person.

A leader is ALWAYS somebody who is NOT going to sit well with everybody regarding their approach. That's a normal instinct, and in fact it would be highly dangerous if that wouldnt happen at all. So if I, or other people, don't respect her as one that simply means she has an opposition the way every leader has & is being held to normal standards a leader should be held to, regardless of gender.

Sorry if you think thats sexist, but in my opinion that's a YOU problem. I personally respect female leaders too much to not acknowledge them as anything else but the potential threats they are. The same way I do with male leaders.

You're leader first, woman second. If you can't handle that get out of the leadership position (yes, oc that also applies the other way around). Feminism was about making sure that women cant be excluded from e. g. position of power just bc we're female. The goal wasn't to have yet another group of people stomp their foots, now claiming that they are OWED power once they wanna have it to feel powerful. But that's what Marinette was used to teach an entire generation of children, especially girls.

The last thing you will EVER get me to do is accept that I should be holding women - specifically for equality, female empowerment and leadership - to LOWER (moral) standards as I would the men in her position.

Buddy, I am NOT gonna fucking do that. Just the thought is pissing me tf off, and has ever since s4, cause it directly plays into the misogynistic thinking of:

"Women can't be given power, status or even too much focus as human beings because they're too irrational and immature to be able to then lay proper priorities & take rightful accountability for their shit like a man in power could; and not just scream and cry while playing the oppressed victim card the moment things don't work out & they aren't being given the special female treatment to let them mostly off the hook consequences wise.

Leading to everyone around them, especially the MEN, having to step up, do the work & basically babysit the women like children - while still having to give her the credit as person in charge - turning the women more or less into toddlers wearing a queen's crown"

Which, by all means, Adrichat in every dynamic of the love square by season 5, Gabriel at the end of "Recreation" and even Luka & Félix (& "thankfully" Alya too since s4) had to do for Maribug in alot of ways.

Pick up all of her slack in several major areas & catering to her while simultaneously having to still give most of the credit to HER or else they would be "mean to the female lead" (it's also telling that Alya is treated the best here, & goodness dont get me started on Su-Han...).

And with that out of the way, a few more meta reasons:

1) I'm NOT watching a damn documentary. Marinette is NOT a 14 year old, she doesnt exist & isnt based on a real person or story. She's a fictional main character and narrative tool, so forgive me for approaching this differently than a real life case.

and 2) in everything I watch I automatically look out for the narrative's blind spots and victims of the writings' favorites. I take it this seriously because this is career related for me.

Hence why I have barely ever liked a main character and ironically Marinette/ Ladybug was once one of the few exceptions (alongside Korra from Legend of Korra and Blitz from Helluva Boss)

Look, when I for example watch Helluva Boss or a Yugioh show I will automatically pay extra attention to how the female characters are being treated bc they are obviously treated worse by the writing and much more neglected and scapegoated than the male characters.

Meanwhile when I watch Miraculous and She-Ra, I do the opposite and pay attention to how the male characters are treated bc now they have the gender-biase against them.

And when I for example watch Avatar the last Airbender or Legend of Korra [and She-Ra, that show is great], then I actually get to be mostly fucking happy for once in my life jfc

I'm not going to elaborate too much more on this because I already named by my main point in the beginning: Chat Noir's - not even Adrien's, I mean CHAT NOIR - sometimes honestly awful treatment being the biggest moral and narrative blind spot of the entire show, and honestly where most of Maribug's problems then are also rooted in. Hence why I started focusing so much on Chat Noir since season 4. I look at the overall narrative and circumstances and look for the blind spots that needs to be solved to get to the core of the problem of this whole mess, to get effective results.

And that was and even by the end remained the fact that Adrichat is treated so badly, scapegoated in every possible way in the name of "feminism" and kicked out of the story where HE is at the core of most everything going on, just so the show can force Maribug into everything, make things about her that have no business being about her

Just so she can then be made to constandly turn around and scream, cry and stress about problems - and go about them in the least effective way - that wouldnt be there in the first place if she wasnt the main character of a story that isnt hers.

Mate, I dont know what to tell you here, but the fact that we are following Marinette Dupain-Cheng ,who has nothing to do with anything besides being the cool action girl, is and will always remain of the of core problems of this show. I WISHED that wasnt the case. But for the love of everything, Kagami would have made so much more sense as the female lead, but no.

Anyway, I will leave it at that now cause I already elaborate much further than I initially wanted to, I just wanted to finally have all this stated.

This Blog is not a full representation of how I lay priorities in (feminist) media in general, my view adjusts to the piece of media I'm watching.

And unfortunately, ever since season 4 Miraculous turned into a full blown extreme case and has only gotten better somewhat recently. So I will continue doing what I always do: focus on the fucking VICTIM whose bad treatment pulls down the whole show's quality, and here that's plain obviously Adrien Agreste/ Chat Noir.

And with all due respect: Die mad about it.

69 notes · View notes

purplebunnygirl · 6 months

Text

I think one of the biggest problems with Miraculous Ladybug is that the characters don't act like people or even characters, they act like plot devices. They don't have character reasons for why they act the way they do, they have writer reasons. Ladybug and Chat Noir have so many opportunities to get back all the miraculous in the first freaking episode of season 5 yet they don't until the final episode, why? Cause the writers will it, so instead of writing it so that they can't get close enough, they just stand around and monolog while literally having Gabriel knocked down. Ayla is a reporter who wants to get to truth as well as Marienette's supportive best friend except for some reason whenever Lila is an episode and then she believes her over her best friend. Half the lies Lila tells make me wonder why anyone would believe her, she isn't a master manipulator, everyone else is just stupid!! Or really, the writers make them stupid so they go along with the story instead of making it believable that they are being manipulated. Also half the time the classmates are written as a collective character rather than their own unique individuals, especially in a Lila episode.

#ml salt #miraculous ladybug #miraculous critical #ml critical

71 notes · View notes

gale-gentlepenguin · 3 months

Text

Miraculous Ladybug hot takes

-Zoé never actually proved herself on why she deserved the Bee miraculous until Season 5. And even so she got the bee before this so it was never truly earned.

-Marinette is not a good leader. Yes she is very strategic and a good hero, but she lacks the trust and confidence that are needed in Leader types.

-Marinette becoming the Guardian made sense on paper BUT it happened way too soon and ended up becoming irrelevant by the end of season 4.

-contrary to popular belief, Felix was never redeemed. He just sort of changed objectives after his plan failed and then everyone was just okay with that.

-Chloé being evil or bad after not becoming a hero isn’t a character assassination. She can be evil. It’s just that the shift/ moment switch that would have given this closure never happened.

-miraculous Ladybug sucks at making people seem sympathetic. The only people you end up feeling bad for naturally are Adrien and Marinette. And that’s more on how the show treats them than the backstory.

- The Paris Special was the best of the miraculous world special because it actually focused on character growth. Also the supreme was a legit threat despite not even being there. If the rest of the show just continued from this universe. I’d prefer it then anything they have planned for season 6

-I have yet to see a SINGLE explanation that makes the season 5 finale justifiable or even tolerable. I’ve heard arguements for ephemeral, Reflekdoll, and even Miracle queen. But recreation is bar none the worst ending to a season of a show I’ve heard of since Voltron. And at least in Voltron, the heroes actually won.

#miraculous ladybug #ml #ml hot takes #ml critical

182 notes · View notes

ilikekidsshows · 4 months

Text

I'm not sure if people still remember but I have always been in the camp that Chloé was a jerk who got what she deserved in the season three finale of Miraculous, a failed hero. When season four first started airing, I also believed that her character regressing in season four could be a reasonable reaction to what she went through in said finale, because she did not have a good time and her lashing out in hurt made sense.

Then season five had the characters talk at length about how Chloé's trauma doesn't excuse her behavior (with Mylène parroting stuff Astruc has said to Chloé fans on twitter if the true source and targets of this part of the episode aren't obvious), in the same season where Chloé traumatizing Marinette is used to excuse Marinette's less likeable behavior. Chloé is made responsible for Marinette's character flaws while also being 100% responsible for her own character flaws when both of their character flaws are stated in-show to be caused by trauma caused by another person. The double standard is obvious.

If I'm going to look at 'Rocketear' and call it out on its character assassination of Nino, I need to look at what the writers did to Chloé and call it out on being the exact same thing. It's not often you see a villain character get character assassinated, but it sure happened here. Chloé might have been a jerk, but she was never whatever seasons 4/5 turned her into.

#chloe bourgeois #ml writing critical #ml critical #ml writers salt #and that's why when you look at my chloe posts you can divide them into pre and post retool eras

193 notes · View notes

fernsnouveau · 5 months

Text

Feels like I only reblog criticism in this fandom these days, and that's not really what I wanted to do. The problem is, the unchallenged toxic messages and the Gabrielcore ideology of late-stage S5 were just so intertwined with the central events and... really everything that now defines post-S5 canon... that I often don't feel comfortable just browsing the fandom for fun stuff anymore because it's a minefield of That.

A lot of people in the fandom are significantly hostile towards those of us who were hurt by the canonized abuse apologia, too, as if we're just too stupid to understand [insert justification used by countless IRL abusers], or we're just being difficult and "salty" for the heck of it.

I kinda just wish that we might eventually get a sub-fandom that just divorced canon after it turned sour, and will focus on the earlier canon and divergence AUs that we actually enjoyed.

#idk why I didn't just abandon this fandom entirely #I still miss the stuff that I actually LIKED about this #yeah it was mediocre fanficcy dorkiness but it was FUN (sometimes with potential for decent emotional exploration!)#ml writing criticism #ml s5 criticism #ml critical #audience reactions #ml fandom criticism #seriously those of us who were hurt by the extremely prominentpro-abuse themes didn't just decide to turn negative-#-for the heck of it to rain on everyone else's parade.#it was mostly people who WANTED TO LIKE the show but then the show nuked too many things they COULD like.#'just turn your brain off and enjoy it!' enjoy what? it's... not enjoyable anymore?!#it's a pity. this show had a LOT of fandom potential. it was VERY blorbos in situations. I miss that.

70 notes · View notes

theerurishipper · 2 months

Note

Season 4 and 5 made it just so difficult to truly believe that Marinette really loves her Kitty. The Fandom and show can scream about vague soft eyes and "she loves her kitty so muuuuuuch! <3" however they want, but it says alot about Marinette's character that this vague "I love my kitty" never really gets any more specific.

Saying "I like you / I want you around" doesn't mean anything whne the actions themselves paint the picture of her basically taking Cat Noir for granted and not thinking a single second about his actual well being or his perspective in any of this.

It's like in Glaciator 2 where a good part of the episode Marinette spends either screaming at Cat, manhandling him however she pleases and even invalidating any of his emotions by screaming in his face that HIS emotions don't matter in any of this, this is about HER and her only when she used him not knowing Marinette is Ladybug against him by secretly forcing him to practice with her her confession for Adrien.

She's literally screaming at him that his emotions are irrelevant to her. She just wants him to do whatever she wants and however she wants it bc apparently thats the only way she can stand being around him. And that she got in season 5, how Lovely.

And then later when Cat voices that he thinks Ladybug can't stand him anymore because she screams at him and gets seriously physical Marinette is like "No, no, that doesn't mean she hates you <3"

When, like, yes Marinette. Under anything resembling to normal morality you constantly reducing him to a rag doll, screaming, insulting, replacing him, leaving him behind on the battle field for your own and your friends' benefit and brushing him off would be a perfectly reasonable thing for another person to view as a bad thing. Only YOU would demand of someone to view that as unparalleled depictions of fondness, and that hasn't changed much by Elation.

Her ignoring his discomfort in the kissing scene (closing her eyes again) and then almost turning into Cat's enemy for daring to tell her "no" one time is one unnerving sight to behold. She basically immediately went back to season 4 mode the moment she didn't get what she wanted. I don't even want to imagine what she would have done to him by impulse if that moment had happened in Ladynoir (I hate how CONSISTENT this is...)

and even by the end of the episode she's still only asking him to validate her when he brings her back.

And well, then she leaves.

It's difficult to actually believe that Marinette really values Cat Noir alot. It feels much more like she values and likes how little genuine efforts she has to make in their dynamics to reach a normal standard, and that he's just the most convenient person for her regarding any kind of ugly dirty work or her worst tendencies not coming with regular circumstances. So of course she would like that.

If I had an anger problem, I would probably like the person too who had to learn from me that that's "perfectly reasonable behavior" they should view as GOOD in a dynamic bc i like using them as rag doll, punching bag and tool.

But just because I personally would find comfort in a person accepting that I can do that to them as my way of "showing affection" doesn't it mean that that's a good thing to make soft eyes about.

But the show is not GIVING us much more to work with. Marinette only on rare occasions voices anything she even likes about him. It goes mostly unsaid so you can claim whatever you want about her feelings for him.

She likes that he's funny, only that the show isn't showing that alot. If at all. Marinette telling Alya in Hack-San to laugh at his jokes because he likes taht is kinda out of left field because Marinette herself honestly doesn't do it alot. The normal reaction is her being annoyed, shutting him up and even insulting him, down to any kind of "slapstick".

And the most I can remember her having SAID about being in love with him in season 5 was being thirsty about how hot he is. I don't wanna be mean but no wonder Alya basically disregarded Marinette's crush. It's not like she ever named anything serious, and tahts....honestly awful.

With Adrien as Cat Noir there was NEVER a question if he values her for more than her being pretty. He loves her brilliant mind, her determination, her drive to help people. Him complimenting her for being pretty was just the cherry on top.

But only towards Joan of Arc did she mention that she likes his loyalty, but that got ruined by her straight up AGREEING with her whne she insulted Cat and the "loyal" part was only to save her own face. She literally agreed with someone insulting Cat right in front of him and only said "yeah, but he's LOYAL" which of course made him insecure. He couldn't see Joan of Arc, how many people are there and what the insult was Ladybug just agreed with. He can't defend himself and saw that Ladybug literally WON'T.

So which one is it, Marinette? Is he hot or a runt who's lucky he's loyal? Why was Joan's opinion of you the whole episode the only thing you actually cared about to the point where you were fine with throwing the person you love oh so much to the dogs again? And Cat looking bad and humiliated again was barely an afterthought to you, as long as it wasn't YOU?

If she actually loves and value him then why is she still treating him as if he merely spawns into existence for akumas or her entertainment and benefit as her care taker? Why isn't Marinette trying to make up for how she used her civilian side to make him do whatever she wants several times by now, as if she never even conciders how this will look like once they reveal (I would loose sleep if I did that to a person!)?

Why was she still perfectly fine with him being completely isolated and having no one in a case of emergency, meaning she always continued letting him run the risk of ending up the way he did in the season 5 finale? Cat being found as a civilian by Hawkmoth was from day 1 one of the most obvious things that could happen and even after 2 what if episodes this fate of his was never actually avoided, because Marinette always just prioritized getting HERSELF out of the equation more than him truly being safe.

That's a risk she was apparently from start til the end perfectly willing to take.

5 entire seasons and the only safety thing she cared about in their dynamic is that if he gets caught and is at the villain's mercy, he does so as quietly as possible so she isn't bothered by it and can close her eyes, cover her ears and go "Lalala".

If Marinette in any of these 5 seasons thought Cat deserved help too than she sure never acted like it, and in fact demanded the complete opposite for her own comfort.

How am I supposed to believe that Marinette loves and values Cat Noir as a person when non of that or his entire personhood goes beyond what little she wants for her own comfort? If you love a person you would actually want them save and not remain in harms way but accept that you shouldn't be asked to care about that? Or remain completely isolated in the dangerous lives you lead without being allowed to ask muvb of anything from you support wise?

Or constantly ditched on the battle field, being done who knows what to so YOU and your friends are fine while you execute the actual plan with the others.

You would ask questions if they're okay and if they need help too, and not just take any half an indicator your being given to write off any concern because you apparently don't actually wanna think about any of that.

You would actually think about them in any decision you make because this is not just about you and their well being should mean something to you. You would tell them things so you don't risk them getting hurt by having to find out themselves the worst way (and here leading to akumatizations).

You would let them made their own choices, have agency and not just when you're forced to. You wouldn't casually execute a plan to trick them into revealing their important secret identitiy to two people without their consent or knowledge, and ESPECIALLY not when the god damn angry authority figure, who already doesn't lie your partner, would fucking use it to get rid of them behind YOUR BACK TOO.

You wouldn't want physical harm being done to them instead of even being a main source of it, and never taking accountability for that while demanding to never get touched and spoken to in a single wrong way. You wouldn't want that they accept that you don't owe them anything as their LEADER but they owe you EVERYTHING because you said so and can't handle anything else in a "partnership".

(Only to feel sorry about it for 2 minutes when you loose everyone else but, well, not really I guess? Or else she would have tried making up for it in season 5 more than just surface level stuff that was once again mostly for HER benefit anyway. But more than that never happened)

You wouldn't want to think they're stupid for not thinking like you and draw the line at any "back talking" you're being given bc you apparently concider anything else but absolut obedience and blind faith as your little puppet as you being "disrespected". So they must walk around you like on eggshells and only talk in soft compliments and supportive words cause who knows how you would react otherwise?

Dude, no wonder Ladynoir is fucking dead. Good for Adrien, and I hate that we've come THIS far. Such a thing is one of the last things I ever wanted to say when I started watching the show. Now I can't be angry taht Ladynoir is fucking dead and Cat Noir didn't made it out of the partnership for the finale, because wtf else was this supposed to result in??

I just cannot fathom the type of "Love" and fondness Marinette supposedly has for Cat Noir. Whatever fondness she feels for him gets drowned out by other 20 red flags about her not actual treating him like a real person.

And man, I HATE that...

Yeah, literally. This is probably harsher than what I think, but it's more or less my thoughts on the matter.

Thank you for your ask!

#ML Salt #ML Critical #ML Writing Salt #ML Writers Salt #Marinette Salt #Asks #Meta #Ladynoir conflict #Ladynoir Salt #Also anon I am so so so sorry for being so late #This is like 2 months late #Anon you're probably not even here anymore but I didn't forget you I promise

26 notes · View notes