#dean is The Good One and sam is The Bad One but the narrative pushes dean so much and makes him so angry he breaks and gets worse | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

scoobydoodean · 3 months

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Everybody leaves you, Dean. You noticed? Mommy. Daddy. Even Sam. You ever ask yourself why? Maybe it’s not them. Maybe, it’s you.

(5.16 "Dark Side of the Moon")

Just. A quick post on this, because I think that some fans, right along with Dean during this interaction, have been tricked into believing that this is true. They have been tricked by this dialogue into believing that Dean is a clingy, overly needy person who pushes every single person he loves away by needing too much or just by being too much in general.

This is not true.

Mary didn't leave because her four year old was a burden, and if she had, that wouldn't have been Dean's fault at four years old. Mary died because she made a demon deal before she even had kids.

John didn't leave because Dean was a burden. John's absences from Dean (AND SAM's) life happened because of John's issues—because he coped with trauma through vengeance and lost sight of his family until the end, when his last act was to sacrifice himself to save Dean's life.

Recognizing that Mary and John leaving Dean had nothing to do with Dean being a burden in real life, the idea that Dean is always being left behind and that him always being the common denominator implicates him breaks down.

Dean and Sam's relationship is a particularly complicated one—made so by multiple deaths, parentification in childhood, childhood neglect, and terrifying apocalyptic destinies. To make Sam running away at 12 or going to school about Dean being the problem is to vastly undersell the conflict Sam had with John. In fact, even with Sam clashes with Dean directly in the early seasons, he is usually using Dean as a stand in for a fight he can't have with their father—and we see the actual blow up occur between father and son in 1.20. Strife between Sam and Dean about living in each other's pockets also isn't one-sided when that kind of strife rears its head. In fact, Dean was the one relieved to be away from Sam a little earlier in the season, from 5.02 to the end of 5.04. Dean called his family chains in 5.03 and was very directly referring to Sam.

There's good and bad among Sam and Dean's feelings about each other, but we know from 5.22 "Swan Song" that the idea sold in 5.16 "Dark Side of the Moon"—that Sam doesn't have happy memories with Dean—is a flat out lie. Happy memories with Dean are literally what breaks Lucifer's control over Sam's body, flipping a switch in Sam's head as memory after memory of being on the road with Dean rushes fondly through Sam's mind.

Zachariah leads Sam and Dean through heaven like rats in a maze. He knew where they were the entire time they were in heaven. Sam and Dean were lead to believe they could hide, but Zachariah always knew where they were. He popped up in certain areas to drive them from one place to another, in a loop through memories selling the story Zachariah wanted to sell.

He pushed them away from the happy memories Sam has with Dean (as seen in "Swan Song") and toward memories where Sam was away from their family (two of which specifically represented escape from John) to sell the narrative that Sam doesn't care about Dean. Zachariah tries to sell this narrative because 5.04 "The End" culminated in Dean feeling he and Sam were both stronger together than apart. Zachariah is deliberately trying to break Dean's belief in that family bond to drive him away from his family and toward despair. He wants Dean to stop believing that he could ever be enough to keep Sam from saying "Yes". Zachariah wants Dean to see himself as disposable because Zachariah wants Dean to make himself a disposable vessel. Zachariah wants Dean to feel completely unloved and alone.

#5.16 #season 5 #pk rewatches spn number ?#5.22 #angels lie #angels and demons lie #zachariah #spn revisionisms

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the-east-art · 20 days

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Easts Supernatural Rant

Just been thinking a lot about how bad Supernatural is lately because I've been going through the weeds reading old fics I've bookmarked and there's some good SPN ones. Background info: I watched SPN nonstop in middle school (roughly ten years ago) and if you go back in time you'll see that it was the fandom I was in way back when I first made my tumblr. I watched until about... season 10? When I realized it was never going to actually get good. So I was really obsessed with it for a good while but also it has been quite a while since I actually watched it.

rant under the cut o7

Okay so anyone who has watched Supernatural knows that it didn't start out actually so... bad. Supernatural starts out decent and builds up momentum fine in my memory clear through the final of season 5. I feel like among the fandom most people know that this should have been the ending of the series. For those reading who don't know, Swan Song ends with a really beautiful monologue about endings and in a tragedy with just enough of a glimmer of hope. Like it's a good ending. And then the series just kept going. do not get me wrong - there's a lot of fun episodes and concepts explored in the *checks notes* holy shit 10 FUTURE SEASONS, but it's also where a lot of the cracks really get bad.

However, in my opinion the biggest issue with Supernatural as the seasons progress is how whittled down the cast becomes. In the first few seasons there are a lot of supporting cast that you really get attached to - there's a bar for hunters, Bobby's place, a whole network of people connected to the principle cast.

While naturally the core of the series is Dean and Sam (and eventually Castiel) almost all of the supporting cast dies. And while I think the death is good in several ways, it really pushes the stakes of the series, especially in the earlier seasons where death truly was final and wasn't a joke. However you can only kill the supporting cast for so long until the show becomes... lonely. Messy. You start to not want to get attached to new characters because of how you know they'll probably die and then not get mentioned again. Many characters after their death just kind of... fade into the background never to be seen. While I don't believe that characters need to be mourned forever, you can't help but to feel that they are dropped for convenience of the show.

This has been on my mind because, as I've been poking around the annals of ao3 looking for diamonds in the rough, I've realized that really any fics that take place in any of the later seasons (let's say 8-15) to me might as well be a different show. It's a show heralded by characters I either don't know (Griffin Mcelroy meme of 'I don't know who Jack Kline is and at this point I'm too afraid to ask) or are character so completely reshaped by the narrative that I no longer recognize them (Castiel the character that just kind of does whatever will make the story interesting I'm looking at you).

What previously is a respectable narrative becomes blown out of proportion. I was reading a fic that dealt a lot with the themes of 'free will' and what that means and how do we try and exercise it, and I realize that I forgotten that, at one point, free will had been the theme of the series. The principle trio in the fandom is called Team Free Will because of that, but pretty much after season 5 all of that is thrown out the window. The first third of the series the boys are fighting against fate, and prophecy, and roles that they have been assigned to. But in the latter part of the series, as the narrative web spins further out of control, you lose that theming.

I mostly talk about this because I kind of find it interesting to look at. About what is engaging to me as a person, and what is a red flag. What I like in a story and what I don't. And I am chiefly reminded of moments where the series drops plot point, or muddies messaging (I have been reminded what The Voicemail is and how it is never addressed). And It's sad. Because I really REALLY loved the show once, and cared for the characters. And now I take refuge in fanfiction, because a lot of the aspects of the story and settings and characters hold SO MUCH potential, that is ruined in the source material.

Uhhhh yeah. Let me know what you think and let me know if have any questions about my opinions on stuff cuz I LOVE talking about art and narrative and stories. Or let me know if you want Fanfic recs because hell yeah I do.

#spn #supernatural #rant #the east rants #I mean #I also don't give a shit about romance plots pretty much ever #so that may have affected things #*holding Garth and Kevin Tran in my hands*#I would have treated you boys better I promise

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twochildreninamoteldemo · 3 months

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im gonna vent in your askbox i hope thats alright, but genuinely deangirls who are also hellers are so. delusional. like even if someone doesnt "ship" wincest like... incest is a theme of the show? like you cannot meaningfully do analysis of the wincest show without talking about wincest. and when hellers try to make every moment about destiel (even when it would be more apt to talk about wincest, like in the siren episode!!) it just. frustrates me so bad. i feel like samgirls + wincesties have a better understanding of the themes of the show (esp s1-5) like. genuinely.

ok to be frank, i wasn't originally gonna post this and just let it sit in my inbox/be deleted and you got your vent and etc. but i'm gonna use it to push back a little in places i'm frustrated with the wank in this fandom. i'm sorry that it's your ask, anon, that prompted this--i have nothing against you, and completely understand your frustration. however.

(btw, in good faith, i'm going to take your usage of "hellers" to be like extreme destiel-only shippers, not chill destiel shippers, as per the original meaning of the term. also note that everything i say here is based on my experience of the FIRST FIVE SEASONS, aka core spn.)

i agree that incest is a big theme of the show--or i should say, incest subtext. there is no actual incest between the show's main family (aka the winchesters) aside from mary's demon deal. is this due to the network? is this due to kripke's creative vision? we'll never know. it can't be ignored within a full analysis of the show, but to say that one can't have meaningful analysis of the show without discussing the incest subtext ignores the conversation that supernatural has with masculinity/gender, american folklore, race, class, etc--whether these conversations are done well or not. i'm not saying you are doing this, but there is a tendency of wincest shippers, as with destiel shippers, to focus solely on sam and dean's relationship, as if there is literally nothing else that matters in the show, which is just blatantly false and prevents people from having a fuller understanding of the show, just as wincest shippers claim to be frustrated about.

and the other thing is that yes, while i do feel that wincesties (using this broadly to also encompass the entire winchester family) have a better understanding of the show than those who don't engage with the incest subtext, i don't actually think that samgirls or deangirls better understand the show over one another. i know i jokingly make posts about this, but it's mainly out of frustration with the dean-centric hellscape that is what the spn fandom is. the true fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter who your favorite character is, it just matters the way in which you understand their motivations and engage with that. i'm sometimes critical of dean because i love him, but i think a lot of the stuff he does gets glossed over by both the fandom and the show, while sam does enough self-bashing on top of the bashing canon already gives him, resulting in a fandom who, when combined with ignoring him in favor of destiel, doesn't choose to engage with the text critically and question why the narrative repeatedly slams sam but praises dean, when they both are complicated people. but i don't think that means you have to necessarily be a samgirl to fully understand the text. especially if you're ignoring dean's plights and positioning of victimhood/survivorship (as sam is too) because he's just not your favorite character. imo it makes someone just as short-sighted.

#sorry to get wanky and again anon it's not about you and i largely agree just using this as a jumping off point #fandom wank #maven.txt #letters #anon

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prettyflyshyguy · 2 months

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Thinking about how genuinely terrifying Sam was during his brief possession incident and how robbed I feel because he could have just gone bad instead - tied directly into his apparent destiny and it would link up much better with the world's opinions of him - specifically the way Gordon describes him in S2.

Like ok hear me out. What if this wasn't a demon, it was just who he was intended to become. Some of the other psychics went bad, or had the possibility to. Sure there's a degree of power corrupts in some of their narratives (guy with pursuasion level 100 became a toxic, awfull person) and some of the others were implied they might get worse over time but they were at their core good people, but what if that power isn't just what you were bestowed and instead was a higher force that influenced you too. The yellow eyed demon was already fucking with them directly in dreams, haunting them, so why couldn't it be poisoning Sam's mind too. Direct possession takes away the "oh god I killed that guy" but I think it's a far more compelling narrative if it was something else that was negatively influencing him. Something he had to fight back against. Something demonic, yes, but something he could push and hold down and exert controll over and over time fully overcome. The devil made me do it vs the devil swung me around like a little puppet on strings.

Something something "choosing to be good" - there's a quote about it I can't remember. Not all monsters are black and white. That werewolf didn't know she was hurting people, she had no controll over it, does she then deserve death? Who can reasonably decide that for her?

Reject destiny, reject the path you were told you will walk, bite the hand that feeds and chew it till it bleeds because you're taking back what you lost.

Plus it then forces them to reconcile with their misconceptions about what constitutes good and evil.

It all comes back to controll and feeling like you have none. One too many people tell you that you WILL become bad and you start to believe it. You stop fighting for that controll. You think it's futile. Dean thinks that's bullshit, and in this essay I will--

#supernatural #not art #THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS..........#hear me out pls #theres something to this #you get a great parrallel betwwwn deans aggressive “what dad wanted us to do” attitude that often overrides pther thought #and sams “this is just who i am. its my trye nature” nihilism over feeling like wlhe cant escape it #his mum and girlfriend died infront of him the same way and he carries that guilt #tired: a demon possessed me #wired: im becoming bad but my stupid stubborn brother said NO and now somehow hes my grounding rock #dean can no longer take the moral fall for sam anymore too #anyway thanks for coming to my ted talk

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rosemariad · 3 months

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Supernatural season 13

I've heard of the widower arc that takes place during the early part of this season but geez

Dean looks so depressed – the desolation, the hopelessness. Poor Dean Bean, lost his angel yet again. You can't help but feel for the poor guy (for now…)

Then the instant 180, uno reverse this man takes in his demeanor. He's so happy Cas is back. AND having a big cowboy adventure! They're spoiling this man after the widower arc. Jack & Sam are not down for it but Dean's been so miserable they shut the fuck up.

Dean swallowing deeply when Cas quotes Tombstone – confirmation they have movie nights together (ALONE??????) if they were alone during these movie nights – they're basically dating w/o clarifying that they are actually dating – and they're coparenting, my goodness! The domestication is real!

We later find out Dean snuck a quick shot of Cas in the little cowboy hat he made him wear for the case. Wow.

But as a side note - I did NOT appreciate how shitty Dean was to Jack. He was basically abusing him verbally like WTF give the kid a damn chance - don’t make death threats to the newborn child that was literally born yesterday like the fuck #jackdefensesquad. Like anything bad that jack actually does, he’ll think back to the moments where Dean was like ‘oh he’s a monster’ ’when you go dark side, I’ll be the one to kill you’ yeah like maybe that’s what pushed him to that point. It’s no surprise Jack chooses to leave. My ass would’ve been gone. Also was Cas made aware of the threats Dean made to Jack???

They’re making it REALLY HARD to like Dean this season. MoC was bad, Demon!Dean too but evil forces were at work. This time he got no excuse — threatening at 16 yr old girl who has no one in her corner. They’re basically forcing her to help them for nothing in return. Unbelievable 🤬 And Sam, wtf? Would it kill you to stand up to your fuckin’ brother!

Anyway - Jack’s power is totally cool though.

Kaia…was killed by an alternate self? Whaaaaaat?

So this was the season they tried for the Wayward Girls? Shame it didn’t work out…like the premise is cool BUT since the main show barely give the women characters the time of day, is it any wonder that a pilot didn’t work? The showrunners only seem good with moments - but no building up of the narrative like the male counterparts AKA main cast. Also - what would be the conflict - give people a reason to keep watching the girls - their storylines seem more or less resolved - Jody has already mourned the loss of her family, its not like she became Batman or something to fight a war against criminality. Claire has also gotten past the loss of her parents (as far as we know but honestly she should’ve been part of the main narrative as her life had been directly affected by Castiel’s actions and we all know why Cas bothers to get up in the morning…anyway), Donna doesn’t seem to have anything going on - she’s divorced but over it, Alex is over her dark past, Patience is just seeming to get a hand of her abilities - like where are the stakes??? Sam and Dean had a whole quest to embark on, then they had to navigate fraternal relationship while fighting monsters all the time, slowly unraveling an overarching narrative that’s taken over their lives. Where’s that for the ladies????

I spoke too soon - Donna’s niece gets kidnapped and Doug is her boyfriend (wow totally forgot about that guy, certainly didn’t think he’d return) and once he gets turned into a vampire but cured of it, he’s done. Before he leaves Donna, he calls her a hero. Honestly, if I ended up having a partner/lover who killed dangerous supernatural creatures, I wouldn’t leave them. I’d stick by them and have them teach me a few things. Oh well. Maybe Donna will run to Jody to have a shoulder to cry on ;) I know y’all JodyxDonna shippers are out there.

Scoobynatural was fucking legendary! I loved watching Scooby doo as a kid, from when they were literal babies, to the OG episodes, to the revamp from the early 2000s, all the movies! (Zombie Island was the best!). It was a genuine delight watching the Winchesters (and Cas) cross paths with Mystery Inc. makes me wish they met Buffy and Ash from Evil Dead. That would’ve been awesome! Watching Dean say scooby dooby doo was total cringe tho :/ I love that Cas shut him down 🤣🤣

That ascot though? He’s wearing it all wrong, its supposed to be stuffed in, like how Fred wears it. And certainly not worn with plaid. SMH…

But now I totally want Supernatural as a fucking cartoon! Just like Scooby Doo - it would’ve been fucking glorious, Dean’s unhinge-able jaw, the kooky facial expressions, the comedic effects, and who knows, it would’ve given the show-runners the artistic freedom to reveal the true form of angels, namely, Castiel’s. Oh well.

Donatello is…dead? I know they said Brain dead but after Amara sucked out his soul and Cas fucked up his brain, isn’t he better off dead? Par for the course for a prophet though, sucks for him.

Funny how Rowena suddenly wants to be the good mom and try to bring her demon son back after CENTURIES of chances. Sure she may not have known what became of Fergus since she left him, but I’m sure it wouldn’t have taken much to find out. She just didn’t want to. Now she’s filled with regret. And Sam’s destined to murder her? And she didn’t take him out? Okay, well then I guess it’s only a matter of time until she dies😒 not this season though, she’s too useful with her witchy powers to be killed off until she serves whatever purpose is convenient 😒

Angels are almost extinct :( I know they’re meant to be seen as controlling jerks but so is Dean XD lol anyway that’s a bummer with devastating consequences cuz if there’s no angels - they said all the souls will fall to Earth and become ghosts - billions in number - yeah. If it were me I would’ve just said the souls disappear but it ain’t my show 🤷🏽‍♀️

Naomi is back and I don’t even care - I’m sorry but I just don’t care about Apocalypse world either, I feel like it’s a grand waste of time. The fact that Charlie and Bobby are there doesn’t even matter cuz it’s not them. It’s not the Charlie and Bobby we got to know before. They’re just counterparts of another world, echoes of the fallen. When Dean says I can’t lose you, dude you literally just met her. And they’re expected to what, abandon the world they were born into? The fuck?

And fuck this show for killing Kevin TWICE!!! Kevin you were too precious for this universe/multiverse, whatever.

ketch is the latest (aside from rowena) of former villains/enemies/antagonist in supernatural that's suddenly we're supposed to be sympathetic towards since they switch sides and help the winchesters for a change but what's the reason??? I feel it's a little out there that Dean especially would let ketch live after what he put his mom through but whatever. since the show runners insisted with this whole apocalypse world crap, Dean would have died without ketch's help 😑

Gabriel has returned…only to die…again…awesome. at least he got to fuck rowena before he passed away 🤣😅

Luci got fucked over hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahaha

Bobby x Mary, oh man John would be roaring in his grave…if he had one 🤣 [got burned to ashes in season 2], Bobby finna take his whole family, first his sons now his wife ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Luci resurrected someone? And nothing bad happened? Now tht’s a twist. I figured since he’s Satan she’d turn into a demon or something, but i guess not cuz we’re definitely not gonna see her again…

You know since I’ve seen The Boys I can see a resemblance between homelander and the devil, they both blow up in anger very similarly. When jack tells Luci, you’re not my father, he raged in a way that was eerily like Homelander would’ve. Just thought I’d point that out…

Dean lets in Alt-Michael - Oh Lord above its the apocalypse all over again (this was a cool shot though) - meanwhile what’s OG Michael doing? Is he still in the Cage with Adam? Really? You had to bring an extra Michael into this nonsense? Ok 🙄 You know if Luci had possessed Sam too, it would’ve been a wrap!

Jack is powerless…for now? This poor kid was gonna kill himself?! Honey why? Ugh I’m blaming Dean for this. He put the seed in that kid’s head he was nothing but trouble and he was going to sacrifice himself, poor baby!

Cas why would you let Dean go?!?! Too sad to follow him into battle after Dean let Alt-Michael in?

Why can’t Sam get a super powerful Big Bad kill huh? Why is it always Dean? Geez.

So the only good things to happen this season were Scooby Doo and Jack meeting Cas. Ugh, their meetup was soo cute ^_^

Welp only 2 seasons left, the last that’s over 20 episodes. Which means we only have 40 episodes to go til the end…goodie 😅

#supernatural #dean winchester #castiel #sam winchester #mary winchester #jack kline #scoobynatural #rowena macleod #rowena supernatural #ah shit here we go again #apocalypse #supernatural season 13 #bobby singer #charlie bradbury

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autisticandroids · 3 years

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I really dislike dean crit, because so much of it is just “if spn was written better, Dean would have to deal with the consequences of his actions” and/or “Dean should have to deal with the consequences of his actions” and like yeah, okay. However,

if spn was better written, Dean would have been allowed better characterisation and character development. The issue would have been fixed (mostly) before it started.

Charlie probably would have said “hey stop being so shit” two episodes into her run and Dean. Probably would have stopped being so shit (pretty much anyone barring Sam could have done this, I think. Cas wouldn’t - Cas <3 - , but so many of his other friends could have)

Unfortunately spn runs on dean making bad choices (and the others. But mostly dean. In s15 they managed to claim “it’s all god’s fault :/“ which is the worst explanation for 13-ish seasons of bad character development I’ve seen in a long while. Literally deus ex machina), and keeping the winchesters+cas isolated. If they had dealt with deans issues when they first became an obvious problem, they’d’ve had to come up with some better stories 😔 and they can’t be having that.

To add on one other thing: if cas fucked him. I think that would have fixed him (can’t be having that 😔)

the thing is that i agree with this mostly. like the thing about dean is that the universe around him is twisted such that he literally can never learn. he's punished for healthy behaviors (i.e. letting sam go: he's punished for that in 5x04 and then again in season six (soulless sam)), and rewarded for unhealthy behaviors (being controlling, getting violent, overriding other people's decisions). like everything about supernatural is geared to pushing dean towards being the worst version of himself. this is why i tend to say that sam is only a good person because he's not the main character; if he were the leader instead of dean, the narrative would reward his toxic behaviors and punish dean's, leading to him to become a worse person and dean to become a better person.

but i also think that there's some really interesting circumstances surrounding the fact that he can't change, the biggest being this: they are totally isolated. this is especially something i enjoy about the bunker, specifically. like, this isolation, especially the geographical isolation of the bunker, allows a sick system to get sicker and sicker without the checks and balances of an outside gaze. this is why a lot of my fix-it scenarios involve moving an outsider (mary, frequently, but not always) into the bunker with them: an outside gaze provides a sanity check, and without one, toxic patterns can become entrenched.

so i think, despite the fact that yes, it is primarily the fact that dean is narratively rewarded for toxic behaviors and punished for healthy behaviors that is at fault for the way things go in the later seasons, it's still a fun space to play in.

#spn #asks #anonymous

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mittensmorgul · 3 years

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Some ppl are again talking about how Dean's anger at Jack in season 15 wasn't justified or it was ooc, and I'm just so tired. Like... Can you imagine if your child lost their soul? And then killed your mother? And then that child was a potentially unstoppable danger to the world you worked so hard to save? And then you find out that the entirety of your free will was a lie? And then imagine that you have a history with struggling to controlling your anger? Idk. I think anyone with empathy should be able to take all those things, and rationally add them up to Dean's reaction 🤦 Sorry, I'm just seeing this drama for this first time since the episode aired, and it's just as annoying as the first time.

Yeah... that's just one more resolution Dean was denied in canon. It's like Dean's arc was just... plonked down on a receipt spike and written off as unnecessary in favor of basically memory wiping him and giving him a personality transplant so that Sam could wear a bad wig and have a blurry wife and we were supposed to feel bad for his son who was a Replacement Dean who was on screen for less than three minutes instead of caring about Actual Dean... Wild...

But okay, finale wank aside... This really was something I assumed would be resolved in the finale, or at least in 15.19. Like Dean would get to have that conversation with Jack and actually apologize and tell him he was their family and he mattered. It's literally the only way Dean's entire arc would've made sense. But Dean was denied ANY resolution. For anything at all. For Cas, for Jack, or even with Sam.

DEAN WAS READY TO SHOOT *SAM* OUT OF DESPERATION. He had to be PUSHED to that point by Chuck's manipulations. Just like he had to be pushed to be willing to sacrifice Jack. He HAD to rationalize his relationship to Jack as being "not family" to even be able to justify his own actions to himself. Because that's just how desperate Dean was, and the lengths he'd been driven to.

I mean think of Dean as a character going all the way back to s1. What is the ONE thing he never doubted? HIS OWN IDENTITY. His free will. His choices. Sometimes they were good, sometimes awful, but he'd always believed they were HIS.

And then 14.20 and Chuck's revelation to him made him doubt even that. How could he trust that anything was real? Even his own identity? HORRIFYING.

I would invite anyone who has never experienced a psychotic break to step the fuck down on this one and shut the fuck up about how this was so ooc. This was literally the confluence of events for Dean that finally broke him completely, and the narrative decided that was how best to abandon him at the end of the story.

I'd also like to remind people that generally Dean's anger is how he reacts to fear. Fear is a useless emotion, but anger is fire under his feet. So when Dean is angriest, it's also usually because he's most afraid. He's not always rational in that anger, but that's sort of how anger works...

gah, mostly I just ignore folks who don't get this. I'm personally happier for it.

and lol, I've got 6.09 on the tnt loop, and Sam and Dean are having the conversation about how having a soul equals suffering, and I feel that a lot right at this moment :'D

#spn 15.20 #just tagging it with that even though this is about like... all of s15 #but the episode tag has sort of become my dumping ground for Bad Finale Feelings Venting :'D #oh DEAN

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brodependent · 3 years

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Sam loves Dean as much as Dean loves Sam: a meta

Much as I love reading good meta, I don’t often write meta. Thus please accept my apologies if this is mediocre, and let me start with a simple topic sentence:

Sam loves Dean as much as Dean loves Sam.

A little longer, now: Sam is even better at loving Dean than Dean is at loving Sam because of Dean’s profound and abiding love for Sam.

Confusing, right? But not really.

We all know how Dean lives and breathes SammySammySammywatchoutforSammy. It’s his defining mission, his ultimate purpose, or, as a therapist might say, his “core belief.” But sometimes I think that we allow adult!Dean too little autonomy. We assume that he can’t help himself: he’s locked into this single-minded focus, on loving and protecting the only family he has left.

That sells Dean short. (Hang in there, I promise I’ll get to Sam in a moment.)

Even people who have been forced into a certain way of life have choices. Even people who have been told who they are all their life have choices. Dean tells us, in Season 14, I’m good with who I am--and I, for one, believe him. Whether we follow canon all the way to 15x17, when Dean is finally brought back from the edge of his desire for revenge against Chuck by his love for Sam (the only thing that’s “real”), or whether we keep to season 1 when Dean said--that’s all we have...that’s all I have... and I want us to be a family again and as long as I’m around, nothing bad is gonna happen to you--Dean has always accepted his role as Sam’s big brother. Dean’s life is unabashedly Sam-centric. He’d change a lot of things, but in the end he’d change nothing, because he wouldn’t change that.

Some fans get very het up about the codependent aspect of this. Others (in my opinion, rightly) defend it. There’s scads of meta on why the Winchester dynamic IS necessary for their mythic role in the narrative, and their human role in the narrative (more importantly), so I won’t write that meta now. All I’m saying is what I think you already know: Dean lives for Sam, his baby brother, and despite the grief, the growing pains, the occasional cruelty of desperate love, Dean said it all when he told Sam (and us), Don’t you ever think that there is anything, past or present that I would put in front of you.

So where does that leave Sam, and his love for Dean? Let’s start with that line I just quoted. Building on the above, Dean’s goal in life is to give Sam a life. He wants Sam to be happy. He wants him to be free. He also wants to keep him by his side forever, to control him for safety and comfort’s sake, and sometimes those instincts of a frightened-child-turned-traumatized-man win out. Dean isn’t perfect. Dean’s full of contradictions. But time and again he goes back to stone number one: what he can do for Sam. What he can offer Sam, by being the grunt, by standing in harm’s way.

When we begin the story, Sam has succeeded in the path Dean helped carve for him. I’m not taking all the credit from Sam here, and giving it Dean: merely pointing out that Dean stepped into traditional parental roles and helped send Sam into adulthood, even though that meant Sam leaving him. We know that the night Sam left for Stanford was one of the worst of Dean’s life, but even in mid-season 1, Dean tells Sam he’s proud of him. You always know what you want. You stand up to Dad. Hell, sometimes I wish I--

(this, of course, is beautifully echoed in the series finale itself)

Dean is telling Sam what so many parents tell their children: you have gone places I never could, accomplished goals I never could, grown in grace and understanding like I never could. At least, I like to think that’s what the best parents tell their children.

To Dean, Sam is always the one with more hope. More wholeness. More options. To Sam, Dean is stone number one.

You asked how Sam loves Dean, and my answer is: just look. Look at how Sam goes out into the world young, stands up to their father, makes his own decisions, fights back against Dean’s own nihilistic narrative through their primary losses and setbacks. Dean gave Sam the safety to build a better worldview than Dean himself has, and Sam turns that right back around and tries to give it to Dean.

What do you think my job is? You’re my big brother--there’s nothing I wouldn’t do for you.

I can’t lose you.

You’re not a grunt, Dean, you’re a genius.

This is my life. I love it. But I can’t do it without my brother. I don’t want to do it without my brother.

I am going to save my brother. And then I’m going to kill you dead.

If you ever need to talk about anything with anybody, you got somebody right here next to you.

I believe in us.

This is just a small collection of Sam quotes showing his love for Dean. A small collection showing the persistent theme of Sam’s persistence. He knows that pushing chick-flick moments and emotional conversations can get jokes for a dime a dozen, and even the occasional punch thrown his way. He keeps at it anyway. When Sam knows Dean’s hurting, he wants to help. He’d do anything to help. He won’t sit around and see his brother turn into an embittered killer (season 2), go to hell for saving his life (season 3), take on the Trials (season 8), be irrevocably corrupted by the Mark of Cain (seasons 9-10), let him despair (seasons 11 and 13), let him sacrifice himself to an archangel’s grave (season 14), or let him lose his goodness to the whims of a vicious god (season 15). Sam fights for Dean with full use of his considerable gifts--intelligence, rationality, resourcefulness, and yes, the occasional blind rage. Sam looks to Dean, first as a leader, then as a judge, and finally as an equal. Sam has been looking up to Dean since he was four, yes, but over the course of the show he comes to look at Dean. With love, peace, understanding, humor, pain...whatever their inimitable connection requires.

The quotes I noted above also reveal Sam’s own conflicts rear up. Sam and Dean (again, in my opinion) are equally developed characters. Both have flaws and inconsistencies. Both have struggles inherent to their personalities and upbringings, distinct from those imposed on them by supernatural forces.

Sam had a glimpse of a different life, once. He had the smarts, he had the drive, he had the sheer stubbornness to live a different life than John or Azazel or hell, even Lucifer had planned for him. But also in Sam--innate in Sam--is his core of goodness and compassion and the principle of doing right, which leads him back into the life and to soul-crushing sacrifice again and again.

Sam breaks and is broken. Sam suffers and ages and spends more time in hell than even Dean, who went to protect him.

But what keeps Sam going? Dean. Dean can’t live without Sam. We know that. The flip side is that Sam doesn’t want to live without Dean. Importantly, I think, he has more choice in the matter. Dean focused his whole childhood identity on giving Sam a life that meant he had choices, even if Dean didn’t know he was doing that. Sam can move through more crowds, more roles, more relationships. He has a better education, he has a more powerful ability to intellectually reason and detach. He would have made a great lawyer. Yet he casts all this aside out of sheer willpower, choosing instead to love Dean and live with Dean through the chaos of their lives, and to go near mad when Dean is gone. Consider Sam in season 4, Sam in season 10...Sam in season 8 trying to atone for the very choice that Dean (the best part of Dean) wanted him to make, even if the real muddle of Dean’s psyche couldn’t forgive him, for a time, for making it.

All of this leads us to the finale.

You said you wish Sam had said I love you back to Dean in the finale. I argue that he did. He made his love perfectly clear to Dean in that moment by holding his hand, by looking in his eyes. He said, you can go now, when all he wanted was for Dean to stay.

The best part of Dean wanted Sam to have happiness and freedom. At the end of his life, Dean was finally able to communicate that without fear or reservation.

But the bittersweet brilliance of that moment is that Sam--the Stanford boy who went to hell and back, who saved the world, brought down one god and raised another--no longer wanted any kind of happiness or freedom that didn’t include the one person who’d been by his side all along. Dean was giving his blessing for a path that didn’t beckon Sam anymore. And yet: Sam said yes to it out of the love for Dean. Sam went out of that barn, out of the bunker, out of that day and that year and that decade and into the next and the next, out of love for Dean. Sam loved Dean by living. He loved Dean by raising another Winchester. He loved Dean by holding all their contradictions, flaws, and heroisms in his heart (in their car), until he’d done what he set out to do many times over.

Then he met Dean on a mended bridge, dressed in old clothes that said: I was happiest at the beginning. I was happiest when we could be brothers again. I took my time getting here anyway, because I know that was what you wanted. I took my time so that we could be happiest now.

If that isn’t love, I don’t know what is.

#my meta #meta #spn meta #the epic love story of sam and dean #sam winchester #dean winchester #spn positive #spn #supernatural #carry on #spn finale #sam loves dean as much as dean love sam #winchesters #sam n dean #sam and dean

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remythologise · 4 years

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You are the only person on my dash who is earnestly, truly enjoying the implications of a canon Destiel in its like...purest and best possible form. The way it COULD be. And honestly. Mad respect. I'm so happy for you.

It’s because I was actually watching the show (again, after many years)!!!! I am invested in these characters and this relationship and I totally get how seeing this happen out of nowhere with a three minute clip with - let’s be real - bad editing, cinematography and production values - makes people absolutely crazy with laughter. I get how people didn’t think about this show and then saw this out of nowhere and it seems like the dumbest most random thing ever. I get why it’s awful to think Cas has been killed off straight after confessing his love, I get all of the memes and find the ones that aren’t outright derisive very funny. But the thing is that for people watching this show who have been invested for years and aren’t ashamed of liking Supernatural because it’s ‘cringe’ (an arbitrary decision! I promise if you rewatch the show you’ll be swept along by your old emotions!) - this was a lot. It meant a lot. It would have taken a HELL of a lot to get even this much pushed through on notoriously conservative-leaning show Supernatural. And we still don’t know where the final pieces will fall because there are two episodes left, and EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH is dead in the next episode except for Sam, Dean and Jack. So thinking that Castiel’s death is narratively permanent is not necessarily true, particularly because there is a character we know is coming back who is also currently in the Empty and we think the Empty will be defeated before the end of the show. People don’t have these context cues for the plot, or production, or the emotional context of what it meant after YEARS AND YEARS and a damn long COVID hiatus - to see this go canon against absolutely every expectation. And the other thing, I see most of the shots taken at Dean/Jensen’s reaction - we don’t know IF he reciprocates, because the whole arc of the series and the episode is about Dean being angry, Dean having nothing left (he believes) but anger, and the WHOLE POINT of this was to start to change how he perceives himself and find love instead of anger. Cas telling him he’s a lover, not a fighter, to wit. Having Dean react literally any other way to Cas suddenly confessing than how he did would be out of character because he IS repressed as hell, and doesn’t do well talking through something like this when he has seconds to process it. (And there have been hints Dean does feel romantically for Cas and is bi over the years. Let’s not forget among other things, Dean gave Cas a mixtape of the same songs that was key to his parents’ romance.) And yeah, maybe there’s no bisexual Dean revelations, and there’s no more Castiel. Maybe they could brush this off and Dean could never mention it and Cas could go full Bury Your Gays. I am fully aware of that possibility, trust me - we all know that Misha has been notably absent from 19/20 filming pics. But considering Robert Berens, a gay man, wrote this ep, and is fully aware of the trope... Considering they went THIS FAR to make a main character confess their love to another character at the end of the series... I’m not sure. Frankly I think both Dean and Cas will be dead by the end of the show and together in some form of an afterlife, but we’ll see. I mean, they hid this absolute bombshell from us... maybe they hid more surprises too. Even if SPN goes the way everyone on the internet seems to think it goes though, I’m so happy that they made Cas canonically queer, in love with Dean, and retroactively wrote a love story into Supernatural. It means a lot, and no amount of people laughing at the memes about this can take away what it means to know Cas fell in love with Dean in season 4 (!!!!) and every SINGLE interaction can now canonically be seen in that way. I guess at the end of the day, it felt pretty damn good for years of subtext to be brought into text and to not be a ‘delusional shipper’ anymore. Supernatural has been famously bad to its queer fans over the years, so this... this is far more than I ever expected. And yeah, I want Cas to come back, and for Dean to reciprocate. But I will celebrate this victory too.

#lol I turned this into an essay when what I actually wanted to say was thank you #so much it means a lot!#supernatural spoilers #for ts?#destiel #ask #gay skywalker #I just hate that people can't enjoy this because spn is 'cringe' what does that even mean guys seriously search your hearts #embrace your teenage self

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fucktheroyals · 4 years

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You know after reading and reading and reading peoples theories and the meta from before the spn finale aired and the meta writers reactions to the finale I think I have a theory of my own. We don't have any answers tho, so this is pure speculation. If you wanna add something to support or discredit any of this that's cool but there's too many things floating around. Know I dont have proof for this conclusion at all. A lot of what I say is just guesses based on previous facts.

This all came together in my head when I realized how much this finale REEKS of the original producers and who the show was originally for. It REEKS of Robert Singer. Like if the execs started saying they didn't want it, Robert Singer was the one pushing that the story was about the brothers. That kinda thing.

Then, I was thinking of the problems in this episode and it struck me these are all of Supernatural biggest issues and to be honest all of it feels completely deliberate.

Take the sexism for example, Supernatural in it's later seasons largely out grew this, we have Jody, Rowena, Donna, Charlie, Mary, Claire (and even a wayward sisters pilot with MORE women/girls) all making regular appearances. They're mainly good characters and mostly aren't there to hurt our boys. Rowena, of course, is the one outlier being very about herself but it's clear she still cares for them, I mean its part of her development. But they're all real, with character flaws just like everyone else. (And we have Death too and she was POC 😭 THANK GOD)

Now look at the earlier half of Spn, we have Ellen and Jo, who's appearances were far in between. There's Bela in season 3, recurring for quite a bit (5 eps), but she is a character that is only there for herself, definitely not found family (unlike Ellen & Jo), and she's got more episodes in season 3 than Ellen and Jo in season 2 who aren't seen again til season 5. The "fans" send in hate mail after hate mail to try to get these characters off, and eventually they are. Then there's Ruby who's character stayed for a whole two seasons and was a largely recurring character. Why does she get to say so long? She's a plot device. She's supposed to be there to betray Sam. She has to stay (plus Jared obviously likes her). But she's not just a character the writers like writing about. Same with Lilith. Obviously not as recurring but still a plot device. Did they get hate mail tho? You can bet on it. Why? because tHeY'rE gOnNa PuSh ThE bOyS (Dean and Sam) aPaRt ThE sHoW iS aBoUt ThE bOyS oNlY. Without even thinking about the hate mail, just notice how large the difference is from how women are seen in the earlier seasons to the later seasons. Misha got tons of hate mail too for being a character that could split up the boys (probably only being allowed to say because he a man, thanks sexist producers and execs).

Only after Castiel was killed off and then Castiel fans successfully (thank you guys) got him back on the show did the hate mail largely simmer, which means female character's were allowed to stay! Which has lead us to a show with a good amount of female characters. But can you imagine having to kill characters off time and time again because people keep complaining that the show is "only about the boys." Fun times really.

So now we get to this final and we see sexism. But it wasn't just the plain old regular sexism you find in the earlier days of spn. Because now, there ARE women to talk about, talk to. But this episode was DESOLATE women wise, unless they were used for plot (which is also sexist!). Small scenes, they're barely there. Women gets her tongue cut out. Random women from s1 gets killed. Sam doesn't SPEAK of Eileen. Nothing. No mention of any female characters from the boys mouths unless they were from/in this episode itself. That's WIERD. I know we've all said it. But that goes beyond forgetting about characters. I mean its SAM'S GIRLFRIEND for Christ's sake. There is NO REASON they couldn't have said Eileen's name. Notice how Sam's wife is just... faceless. This is literally an age old sexist trope. Like... one of the things about bringing Mary back to life for s12+ is that it takes this trope... of basically a generic mother, and gives her life and feelings, whether you like them or not, they're real feelings. They said Mary isn't just a mom she's a person. Mary's existence in the later half of spn is to fix this kind of female tropes that fall upon her character, to not let these her stay a 2 dimensional character. They said we should know she's more than just the mom who tried to save her kid. Do that is the exact opposite of Sam getting a nameless, faceless wife. The sexism of the old spn wasn't just brought back, it was completely amplified. It wasn't just accidental or some exec "fixing" the story it was DELIBRATE. Whoever wrote that, didn't do ALL OF THAT by accident. Because an exec or a producer who doesn't see the flaws in old supernatural isn't going to write it that deliberately.

Let's bring it back to s10 when Charlie was killed (singer was mainly to blame). Dead in the bathtub, age old classic of burying ur gays. If you were here you know people never let Supernatural live that down. THEY KNOW what bury ur gays means. Hell, Robbie Thompson left because of Charlie's death and you think the writers don't know what it means? I mean both Bobo Berens (especially) and Steve Yockey's careers are centered around LGBT+ storytelling and you think they don't know? They know. They know.

And Dean wasn't just apart of the bury your gays trope, it is so far BEYOND that. Dean being killed on a rusty nail/screw, the tongues ripped out, things that seemed to be meant for other people. Jensen's acting in the last two episodes was giving us "DEAN RECIPROCATES" but no one ever actually saying it. I think it's clear that Dean was killed for being Bi. They didn't address it for a reason, they just silenced him. His narrative was supposed to be about letting him be HIM for the first time, to say what his feelings are instead of having them miscommunicated, and instead of doing that, they just silenced him. And the more we look at this scene the more horrific it gets. The more it's a complete slap in the face and it's supposed to be. Some guy who knows nothing about the LGBT can't write a scene this horrific.

Some guy who knows nothing about Dean couldn't write a scene that deconstructs all of Dean's character development and gives Dean his worst nightmare. I MEAN DEAN WANTED TO LIVE HIS LIFE! THEY DIDNT HIDE THAT JOB APPLICATION (or whatever job related thing that was) IN THERE FOR SHITS AND GIGGLES THEY WANT YOU TO KNOW THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE WORST SITUATION. Dean isn't Barney from HIMYM. If you watched HIMYM then you'll know Barney went from being a stereotypical ladies man and treating women terribly to being in love with a women and treating her right and working hard for it. The last episode of HIMYM (why its so bad) Barney's character development is thrown out and he's back to being a stereotypical ladies man. You don't need to know Barney's character very much to do that.

To kill Dean during a hunt his father never finished, to not have anyone at his funeral, to have Dean die young like his life didn't matter. Those are Dean's worst fears and you'd only truly know that if you watched the gin episode in s3, where they are basically laid out for you. You HAVE to know Dean's character to tear him apart like this.

This episode took all the core elements of the show and did a complete 180° the name of the episode itself is "Carry on" and Dean and Sam very much did not carry on. Sam grieving his entire life so that he good get to heaven and see Dean again. Dean being ready to live his life, despite the enormous pitfalls and learning to love himself only to be killed. "Family don't end with blood." Um.... it did in that episode either literally with Dean's death or you know BECAUSE NONE OF THEIR FOUND FAMILY WAS THERE. Not Jack, Not Cas, Not Eileen, Not Donna, Not Charlie, Not Jody, Not Claire... on and on we go. No one was there, nobody was even mentioned. Dean's funeral, no one even called that we know of. It was just Sam and Dean. Sam and Dean. And Bobby. Don't forget Bobby. But yeah Sam and Dean.

That's what the show is about right, the brothers.

Except it's not anymore. It hasn't been for years.

Cas not being there was deafening but it brought us to a major point. Becky. Becky's telling us about the terrible ending.

And many of us are wondering why would they literally tell us this is the worst ending and then... make it the ending.

Now before we move on, it very apparent many of you think Dabb doesn't ship Deancas. And Dabb doesn't care about the characters.

Say what you will about any plot holes in his writing, the point he is VERY GOOD at writing the characters, and giving us good ones.

Why do we know Dabb ships Deancas? (ill say when its cowrote, other wise its not) cowrote ep 8.02 - purgatory "I prayed to you, Cas, every night" "Cas, Buddy, I need you." "I have a price on my head, and I've been trying to stay one step ahead of them, to – to keep them away from you." 8.08 Hunteri Heroici - Cas helps them hunt! 😊❤ Dean & Cas have a serious convo about why Cas doesn't want to see/go to heaven. 8.22 Dean's mad at Cas. Sam's explanation of why Dean should be easy on Cas: "It's Cas." Dean then points out how he'd knife anybody else if they did what Cas did. 9.10 - Cas comforts Dean when Dean can't take seeing Sam (Gadreel) being tortured anymore. Also tons of Cas. 9.20 (bloodlines) - Canonical couple parallel "I was there, where were you" 9.22 The angels make Cas choose between them and killing Dean and he "gave up an entire army for one guy" 10.09 Claire's reintroduction. Cas heavy ep. DeanCas date. 10.22 THE PRISONER - u know the ep where Dean beats the shit out of Cas but loves him enough to not kill him.

We COULD keep going but I think I've made my point. If Robert Singer is the guy that is like "the show is about Sam and Dean only" Andrew Dabb is the DeanCas shipper. And you could even say a Cas stan.

Notice! How in s13 for SEVEN episodes we have a story that revolves around Dean's grief about losing Cas. Notice! How often the stories in all these seasons have a focus on their relationship. THAT is Andrew Dabb. If it weren't for him doing that, we wouldn't be able to easily say after Dean's lack of a response to Cas' confession, that Dean reciprocates.

To me, when I was (binge) watching s12 for the first time, I thought damn this is really got a lot of DeanCas. So I went to look at who was in charge, who was writing. I saw Andrew Dabb, associated him with Deancas episodes, saw all the new writers, Bobo, and then I saw that Yockey is known for same sex stories and it clicked. Dabb assembled a team to give us Destiel. THAT WAS IN SEASON 12!!!!!!!!

The amount of people saying he's homophobic flabbergast me. Open your eyes! That isn't what's going on.

Imagine making a show and trying to right all the wrongs of Supernatural. Imagine trying to write the greatest love story ever told and you have the entire season planned out for it to end off beautifully, it may possibly be your greatest achievement when it's done and then boom. someone comes in and tells you you aren't allowed to make Dean bi or make destiel endgame, after he was most probably already given the go ahead.

Sure. You could imply he's bi or into cas still in a way. Still make nice-ish ending. just give everyone what the kinda want.

Or you could scrap the last season, nothing close to a canonical bisexual Dean Winchester or Deancas endgame in site. People can be done with it be happy with the show, continue to live their lives in ignorance as to how close they were to Canon destiel.

OR you can lead everyone to the very closest you can get them to what you were aiming for and then show everyone the ugly truth and reality. Light it all on fire. Burn the show to the ground in your wake. Try your darnedest to making these people's (the people saying no) pockets suffer. Show us, the audience, what happened. Show us what this show really is.

I've seen people talk about the ending being changed during covid but I dont think that happened. I think what happened was Dabb already had this season planned out before it even started. Obviously the details were wobbly but it was all lead up to this ending. Destiel endgame, Canon Bisexual Dean, whatever it was. They were ready to write the greatest love story ever told and then someone shut it down.

Imagine the pain that must have caused them to be told no when they already said yes. They must have been so excited to give this to us.

I think someone (some producers) told him what this show is "really" about. The brothers. Can you imagine, after being told no, some kinda bullshit like this is said to you: "Why aren't you bringing it back to the brothers, Andrew? that's what the shows about. What with all this homosexual stuff, you know the audience won't like that. Not really." Imagine the original producers pushing this kind of view on you. "You know when we started it was Sam and Dean. It should end with Sam and Dean." That kinda sounds like someone huh? huh.

So why give us a nice acceptable finale, when you can take every problem Supernatural's had either up front or behind the scenes and create a finale so incredibly bad that people don't want to watch it anymore.

Someone made a good point about how Sam was originally supposed to be the main focus (this isn't to put any hate on Sam or Jared). Dean and Sam are the main characters but Sam was supposed to be the focus and for Dean to have become the focus, must have annoyed the producers because... well here we are. They wouldn't listen to Jensen. The producers liked this ending. Jensen's opinion didn't matter to them.

In some ways, if this is really what happened, it can be seen as childish from Dabb. To hurt all of us like that. Yes, he's hurting the producers, the execs, the cw. But to hurt us? Yeah it stings.

But in other ways, if this is really what happened, this is Dabb showing us the muck and gunk under the shiny surface. The hate for Misha. The hidden hate for Jensen. The underlying sexism. The underlying homophobia. The people REALLY in charge don't care about us, they just want our money. He needed to open our eyes and free us, at least free the people that he was writing for. The people he sees that care about this show.

This is the ending the powers that be wanted and its a big fuck you for a reason. I dont think this is Dabb spitting in our faces for loving this show, I think this is him trying to get revenge for us.

But from here, you can see it how u want it. If this is really what happened, I'm not in charge of your emotions, if you wanna be mad be mad if you wanna be grateful be grateful. And you don't have to believe me either I said this is speculation.

Also, as for all of the rumors like there being shots to the confession scene that we didn't see, which Jensen himself implied, I think that might have been a last ditch effort to canonized DeanCas but obviously it was cut. Like the name change was pretty clear. As for Misha possibly having shot some stuff for 20 I dont know what to tell you. If it's true I dont know where the blame would lie.

I do think however, that if all this was the case, the writers were prepared to become villians here. I mean they told us the writers were villians with Chuck right? So. Who knows what went down so they could give us such a vile ending. It could've been the producers or the writers, who truly knows. I do think tho that people we "trust" did some pretty shitty things to push the narrative in certain directions so now one would see this as the actual ending that was coming.

So again do with my SPECULATION what you will. This was in no way meant to put Dabb on a pedestal or anything. Just meant to give a bit of perspective.

(Also Jensen didn't unfollow Dabb recently he was already unfollowed for years)

#15x20 wank #spn finale wank #spn finale meta #15x20 meta #Andrew Dabb #spn #supernatural #castiel #dean winchester #destiel #deancas #misha collins #jensen ackles #long post #sorry im on mobile #this is the longest post i have ever writen

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icefire149 · 3 years

Text

There is always an angry man in your house - alternate spn s13-15

After sending 1 anon msg to get a feel if this idea that popped into my head was dumb or not, it has now exploded in my mind.

The idea is: Imagine if they ran with late season Dean becoming the angry man in his house & being like his dad in relation to him being insane to Jack. And his nightmares kept going from Cas' funeral pyre to Cas burning on the ceiling and Jack & his glowy yellow eyes watching.

So the dynamic shift would be: Dean is John, Sam is Dean, and Jack is Sam. Dean looks at Jack and he sees a monster (lucifer), but he can’t kill him or get rid of him. Not that he hasn’t tried, but for now he has to actually protect Jack. And despite his feelings, Jack is growing on him.

Still, Jack is the reason Cas was running all over the map s12. Jack is the reason Cas died. Jack is the reason Crowley and Kelly died, and Mary got trapped in apocalypse world. Jack and his glowing yellow-gold eyes are the new monster haunting his life.

It’s his childhood trauma cycling again. The yellow eyed demon haunting and destroying his family. So Dean drinks too much, is plagued by nightmares of glowing yellow eyes and Cas burning, and blows up in anger all the time.

Jack ends up learning to see himself as a monster. His otherness makes him wrong, and nothing he does trying to mimic & please Dean makes a difference in Dean’s eyes. And we have to remember that Jack is an angel so he is picking up Dean’s unintentional prayers & feelings. So I’d imagine Dean’s mind keeps swirling about the monster and yellow eyes image he’s scared of. So along with the scene in 13x02 when Jack is stabbing himself, he also tries to tear his eyes out.

Since Cas is dead, Sam is the one that steps up. He has to be both parents, teacher, protector, and mediator with Dean. Despite how much Jack is trying to win Dean over. And Dean is convinced that Jack is just another monster they will have to put down sooner rather than later. Which matters when the moment comes around and Chuck is setting Dean up to kill Jack, he can’t and doesn’t do it.

Dean still changes when Cas comes back, but the damage is done to Jack. And Cas isn’t quite sure how to navigate any of it, because he doesn’t know the true extent of it since Dean doesn’t explain his feelings & nightmares and Jack doesn’t want to explain his feelings either. But there is obviously a problem with the way Jack sees himself.

Dean also ends up also fearing that Jack will cause him to lose Cas again. This causes friction.

Dean saying yes to Michael should be heavily leaned into him doing that to save Jack. Despite everything, he does this 1 thing that he promised he would never do to save his kid. Also when Jack loses his grace and is dying, Jack is okay with it in a warped way. Because this means the part of him that’s bad is gone. And Cas is distraught.

So we set up this dichotomy that the angel part of Jack is what makes him a monster in Dean’s eyes, while the angel part of Cas is what makes him so wonderful in Dean’s eyes. It’s so screwed up and this is when it’s really sinking in THIS is the problem with Jack. This horrible idea of himself.

Jack burning his soul away to do good despite knowing it’s a bad thing to do, should be leaning heavily into reflecting season 4 Sam and the demon blood. Cas does more trying to remove Jack from the bunker. They’re going on their own cases. He’s teaching him. Cas is trying to help Jack and his self worth, but Dean is thinking his fears are coming true. Jack is taking Cas away. Jack could get Cas killed again.

In this au Jack never kills Mary. She’s still out doing her thing, and it’s Dean’s fears about Jack taking Cas away that becomes the boiling tension. Chuck kills Jack, and the big divorce is about their family. Jack has never been a monster. Dean is the one that planted that seed and watered it. And Cas is sorry to both of them that he didn’t do enough. Dean is angry about everything and still doesn’t want to accept that he is the problem. Jack is dead and he’s still taking Cas away. Cas leaves.

So then season 15 should focus in on Dean taking himself apart. It finally sinks in that yes, the yellow eyed demon has haunted his family his whole life, but the demon was never the monster in Dean’s life. John was the monster that had him sweating every time he heard his footsteps reaching the motel door. John was the one that made him feel disposable. John is the one that put way too much on him. He’s 40 years old and he’s still afraid of John. Dean was right all along, there was a monster in the bunker tearing his family apart, but it didn’t have yellow eyes.

This should also lead into Dean really digging into his childhood issues with Mary. That wasn’t addressed nearly enough. And it should be reflected in this new discovery of himself. AND all of this should funnel into his rage at Chuck & why he desperately needs to escape the narrative. He didn’t deserve that screwed up childhood, and Jack didn’t deserve what Dean did. And Chuck did it...for fun? Hell no. Dean spends the rest of the season fighting against those impulses to kill & push Jack away. Chuck is wrong. And Dean has to try with Jack, but Jack is like him and is trying to self sacrifice to save the world.

#spn #save #i need to sit with this more but holy shit my brain clocked me over the head #with this while i was cooking dinner

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crispyjenkins · 3 years

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buir i ask ur opinions on one sam winchester (i am entirely neutral on him, go off)

oh goodness, you know not what can of worms you have opened

basically, i think as early as the second season, the showrunners and writers like. didn't realise they had shifted the entire show to be about dean. like they just kept trying to make sam the focus, but then giving all the actually interesting plots to dean, and then being like "oh shit we've made dean more interesting again, we have to try and make it about sam again". like. hell. purgatory. his near death situations in seasons 4-9 (that’s about where i stopped watching), just about everything bad that happened about dean HAD to happen to sam later, in order to like try and keep him as the main character, but it just cheapened just about every plotline and made the show repetitive as fuck.

here’s abouts where i say i genuinely liked jared padaleki's performance of him, especially post soulless-sam, the writers just. kept trying to shove him into a protagonist role while also continuously writing him out of one.

now, sam as a character can eat my GODDAMN ass. maybe it’s just ’cause i have good relationships with my siblings, even the one i don’t talk to much cause he moved out years ago and i'm autistic, but fucking hell the way he treats dean and how much he expects from him and how much of his trauma from their dad he projects on dean, like. unlike other characters i dislike but think were important like qui-gon, or a.d. janson, i think most of sam just wasn’t written well, so jared padaleki didn’t have enough to work with to make him a worthwhile character. what i mean is like, sam's trauma is never addressed narratively, and how much the shown pushes family and brotherly love made sam's gross behavior... somehow acceptable.

i can’t speak to anything after season 12-ish, like the only thing i know is the turbo-hell situation, but i sincerely doubt anything improved on this front.

in regards to benny, i forget the purgatory timeline a lil like how long they were together, but it was about a year i think? regardless, in the short time they knew each other, benny like.... was way more of a brother to dean than sam ever was, in a way that should have been intentional narratively from the writers and directors, but then the contrast is never even addressed in the show. like the same way sam's grossness to dean should have had a purpose narratively and continutively, it was just changed and flip-flopped to fit what story they were telling per episode.

i sort of stopped watching the show mainly because benny was killed off. that once again dean had to be the tragic hero the writers kept forgetting sam was supposed to be. like we were offered a taste of what brothers hunting together should be like, how good it could be, and then they killed him off ’cause the writers belatedly realised he was a better-built character than the one they had spent 8 seasons trying to convince the viewers was important or even likeable.

#i don’t even care about spn anymore #but i will never stop caring about benny and dean and especially their relationship #brotherly or shippy or queer platonically im just #all fucking about it #not star wars #cj answers #supernatural #anti sam winchester #but like #based on writing and the show going just too damn long #hashtag rant

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teamfreewill2pointo · 3 years

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Transcript of End of the Road Special

Transcript of End of the Road Special.

Please let me know if I made any errors in transcription. Twitter version Family Don’t End with Blood Transcription Winchester Mythology Transcription

Dabb: Ultimately, we came up with something that we're all very proud of Singer: You never know what the audience is going to like so we really tried to say "what would make us happy? Would we be satisfied with where we've taken them?"

The Carry On song was a guideline.

Singer: The myth of what these brothers were throughout 15 years... We didn't shy away from fatalism, but we wanted to be able to have it be kinda uplifting as well.

Dabb: If you're going to do something that feels like a complete arc, you have to kinda go back to the beginning of it (clips of them hunting vamps from s1 & 15.20) When it comes to Sam & Dean- it's all about getting back to, in some ways, these two guys on the road in this car.

Dabb: They've been doing this job for 15 years now. They've fought everyone from demons to vampires to God himself, but at the end of the day, they're still working guys, out there on the road & taking cases. We've tried to never lose sight of that.

Dabb: There are times when we've been wrapped up in our own mythology a little bit. We've always tried to get back to the basics, which are: these two guys, saving people, hunting things.

Eugenie: I think we sort of knew generally what the ending would involve.

Eugenie: We might not have known the mechanics, but we sort of knew there would be a victorious, glorious sacrificial ending bc I think sacrifice is a big theme in the series.

For every great thing you do, a cost must be paid.

Singer: Andrew & I talked about it. We were in agreement pretty quickly... talked to the rest of the writing staff & let them know what we wanted to do and we were open to suggestions. And then we pretty much pitched it to Jared and Jensen.

Jensen talks about flying to LA. Jensen: So before we ever even started 15, we knew how the last portion of the story was going to go. We didn't know how we were going to get there, but we kinda knew the final- the finish line- we knew what... what that was going to look like.

Jared: I don't think there's ever been a season of SPN in 15 years where the way the writers thought the show would play out for that season- ended up being the way it played out And so we were aware of that. They told us here's what we're thinking, here's what happens to Castiel

Jared: In the finale, Dean dies & Sam lives on. And then we think they're going to meet up in heaven.

I remember Jensen... just because I know him so well- he seemed to bristle a little bit.

Jensen: It was hard to hear then & it was hard to read now. Not because I didn't like it, not because I wished it had gone differently... I'm not adverse to it. I think it's a great ending. I'm proud to film it.

Singer: And we just aimed for that, you know, throughout the season. We knew where we were going.

Jensen: Reading it & knowing that... there's just a weight that is so much larger reading these scripts than I've ever experienced before.

There's an emotional weight that these scripts are going to carry & these episodes are going to have that I don't think we've ever seen before.

Brad: [J2] were so young when all of this started. They brought to it such conviction & such commitment to the effort.

That's one of the things that kept the show going for so many years... a show that was designed for very young guys, footloose & fancy free, & on the road…

Brad: To see these guys grow up b4 your eyes into- men, not boys any longer- was amazing.

BABY Jared: Though the story does involve Sam & Dean chasing supernatural things, it really is a story about two brothers that love each other & ultimately will do anything for each other.

Jensen: There's really one person that gets it on the level that I get it, and that's Jared. Jared: I've never spent as much time with another human being as I have with Jensen Ackles. He will be my friend and brother forever. And I know that.

BABY Jensen: There's a lot of dynamics between the two brothers, there's a lot of history between them, there's a lot of banter between them... it's good stuff S15 Jensen: We had a partner in crime & we leaned on each other for, you know, for times when it was tough.

Jensen: But we also won together. We got to share the experience of success & the experience of getting picked up for another season. Watching these two characters go through what they're going through, when we're working 14 hours & it's 2-3 o’clock on a Sat morning and we're just now finishing filming out in the rain and mud and we gotta race to the airport to get on a plane because we've got a photoshoot in LA & we've gotta do on camera interviews and we gotta promote the show that we love so much that we were just in the mud & the rain filming hours before we're exhausted and it's like there's only one person that gets that right now. That gets how I feel and that's this guy standing next to me. That's pretty cool. That's pretty cool to have somebody like that.

Brad: We knew it was going to be impossible to tie up every aspect of all of the cans of worms that we opened up.

We did want to bring a proper ending to the guys, the guy's relationship.

Brad: Then of course we had this huge corner we painted ourselves into with the most powerful thing in the universe being the big bad of the season. We try and find a proper send off for Jack & for Cas. What to do w/ the boys & is that a together farewell or an individual?

It was just... lots of moving parts.

Dabb: I give a lot of credit to Bobo who really was the one who started banging the drum early & often to ending the mythology in 19 and end the characters in 20.

Brad: You're battling God & battling God & you have this epic situation going on through the first 3/4 of the show & then what? You send off Dean in act 4? That just felt wrong. Eugenie: We had this obligation, it was really mandatory, that we tie up the mythic narrative and leave the final episode for the emotional resolution. I [was] more on the side of not wanting to best God. To have God change to be more like his creations. So there were philosophical arguments, but we always knew God's resolution was going to be a big ticket item.

Jensen: We'd started day 1 of the 2nd to last episode, 19. We were 1 day down on that episode & we were just about to start our 2nd day & we got the call that morning that we were not going to be coming in that day.

Jensen: So we figured ok, we'll figure out protocol, figure out what we need to do, & we'll just regroup, come back on Monday. As that day progressed, it was like- this looks like more of an apocalypse that is ascending upon us than just a bad cold.

They pulled the plug & they said everybody go home.

Singer: Fortunately, we got assurance from both the studio & the network that one way or another we were gonna finish the series. That was comforting to us, but we didn't know when we were going to go back.

Eugenie: We didn't know what we were going back to... if this was the last time we would ever see the set. There was no plan. It was just get out of dodge. Dabb: When it first happened, we thought it would be a couple of weeks, maybe a month.

I had conversations w/WB where they expected everyone to be back shooting in June & then things got worse & pushed & pushed.

Eugenie: Slowly as we settled into that 4 or 5 month period, discussions were going on w/the studio, & the networks, & the actors. We knew there would be restrictions on what we were allowed to shoot, but finally, the mechanics were figured out.

Singer: So they were ready to go pretty quickly, shooting in Van, where covid wasn't quite as virulent as it was [in LA].

Dabb: We were one of the first shows, one of the first WB shows to start back up. So in a way, we were kinda a guinea pig. But, in being that, I think everyone took it really seriously. We had 0 positive tests. Crew members weren't going out on the weekends.

They were like look, if I get sick, it hurts the whole show. That speaks to the family culture up there, where we've had so much of our crew for so long. Where J2 & Singer provide such great leadership.

Singer: When I was in prep for 20, I was basically in the office but couldn't go to the set. It was very odd for me not to be able to go to the set while I was in prep.

Everybody just hung in there & did what they were supposed to do.

Brad: Then we were faced with the dilemma of having to rewrite a lot of the stuff bc of the pandemic bc of the limitations that we knew were going to come on the production.

Jensen: We were gearing up for, not only the end of that season, but the end of the series. There was a lot of big, big things written-packed- into those last two scripts.

Jared: At first, it was supposed to be a lot of our old cast from prior seasons in a Roadhouse with Kansas.

Everybody had already agreed. Kansas was going to be in Van. We were going to have dad there & mom there. Just probably 20 or 30 different actors & actresses who had been a part of the SPN's canon over the last 15 & a half years.

Jensen: It was scheduled to be the last day that we were going to film, so it was almost like rolling right into a nice wrap party on camera.

Brad: The idea of flying a boatload of ppl up there to quarantine for 2 weeks so they could shoot for a day was making less & less sense.

Eugenie: How do we make this work? And while you're doing that, you also don't want to sacrifice the heart and soul of the project.

So we came up with a reduced, much more intimate ending. It has been replaced by something equally magical & rewarding.

Singer: I felt an enormous responsibility in directing the finale of a show that's been on for 15 years. Andrew, when he saw the cut, he said some really nice things to me as to, you know, the way I handled the material.

Jensen: The scenes that were filmed on our last day on the sound stages were filled with the most emotion of the final episode.

Singer: One of the really hard things was we're on another stage that wasn't the MoL stage & they started wrecking the MoL sets

They'd been working on this set and been apart of this- this family for just as long if not longer than the set's been around. I was like "it's really sad seeing this get taken down" and the other guy said, "I'm trying to hold back tears while I'm swinging this hammer."

Jared: As we start saying goodbye to characters, to locations, like it just seems like every day you would wake up and there would be some reason to cry.

Misha: This is a show ultimately about love, & empathy, & caring, & I think that Castiel embodies that.

Misha: Half the crew was crying. It was really such a sweet, supporting environment to be in for the demise of a character that, of course, for me is really important.

But it was so lovely to see that, you know, the folks that I'm- I'm working with were also there for Cas at that moment.

Alex: To get to work with these caliber people & see your friends every day is really special & is not something that often happens in this business for this long. It's been definitely a topsy turvy last couple weeks here with us and the crew.

Jared: Friday of the final full week was the big scene in the barn with the vampires where Dean suffers his fate. They did the first two days with the entire stunt team & the young boy actors.

And then they cut it for Thursday night and they're like, okay, Friday, tomorrow, we’re starting the dialogue. Dean, you're on the post. Sam, you just cut off the last vampire's head.

That was the scene- that was where Supernatural was really encapsulated.

Jensen: And then the next week we kind of had this- on the road encore get together filmmaking scenario that felt more like we made it & it was more pats on the back as opposed to tearful goodbyes.

Dabb: In a weird way you can look at the 15 seasons is like Sam & Dean's emotional evolution. You know instead of therapy, they kill vampires, but other than that it's kind of the same & brings them both to a very good place. And a place where they can, as the song says, you know, lay their weary head to rest.

This felt like the most honest & emotionally fulfilling episode for these characters to us. Jared: I got thinking about how Supernatural started & how the majority of times how I thought it should end. It started with Sam & Dean Winchester. I think it's proper that it ended with Sam & Dean Winchester together again.

Jensen: When the cameras stop rolling & Bob yelled, “Cut!” and Bob yelled, “That’s a series wrap on Supernatural.” There was- a there was a loud cheer that echoed through that canyon we were filming in. I will- I will happily say that there were hugs that happened and that needed to happen. Those are people that I spent not just years with, but so much time with- it's like brothers in arms and so to put it to bed the way that we did felt really good and then felt good to hug some people, I'll tell you that much. Singer: I thanked everyone, but I wanted to really thank people who had been with us from the beginning and as I looked around, there were so many people who had been there from the beginning.

We really were a family. I always say about this show is one of the reasons that it was a success and is that it was not only about the Winchester family, but it was about the Supernatural family.

Jared: So now that's all said and done, I guess I can look back at it and just be proud that I helped this show carry on and I'm really proud of the blood, sweat, and tears that I put in, and I feel like- I feel like that sacrifice was also maybe one of the things I learned from Sam, you know? Sam had to sacrifice a lot. So, I'm honored and flattered and grateful that I got to be a part of that journey.

Dabb: You're never going to have another show like this. You're never gonna have another experience like this. For a lot of different reasons, from how long it ran, from the family that the show became, from the amazing fans that we have. [Footage of us] From the emotional investment people can put in over 15 years of their lives.

Some started watching this when they were in high school, when they were 15, they're 30 now, they might have kids. That's their- that's like half their life. They've been with this show. You're not gonna have that again. Shows just aren’t gonna run this long, especially genre shows, but I don't know that I'm ever gonna do anything else in my career that I'm gonna be more proud of than having been involved in this show.

Jared: The things that stick out are just how important it is to keep putting one foot in front of the other. And keep on working and wake up every day and treat it like it could be your last and- and if you make it out the other side, you'll be happy and proud of what you did.

Jensen: The crew had packed up, they had cleared the bridge, and they were all starting to, you know, load their trucks and get moving. And Jared and I just kind of hung back, and we just took a moment. I looked at him and I said, “I’m proud of us, man. I'm proud of what we've done.”

We know that that's the collective we, that is everyone that is involved, that is- you know from the top down. You know, for our portion, for what we contributed to this monster of the show, he and I reflected on that, and still able to see and smell the roses.

#supernatural #spn #spnfamily #spn family #spn 15.20 #spn s15 #spn s15 spoilers #carry on #spn finale #spn spoilers #sam winchester #dean winchester #jared padalecki #jensen ackles #brotherlylove #sam&dean #brothers man #bts #actor opinions

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rosemariad · 9 months

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Supernatural Season 9

Sam oh noooooo 😥😭

He really said lemme die in peace. But Dean won’t let him go.

OML the forces of Heaven and Hell really fucked up this man’s life.

Kevin survived season 8 - woo! I know he not gonna make it to the end tho 😑

Charlie’s still around too, but is she gonna make it to the bitter end 🫥

Crowley’s locked up - its about time honestly. He is long overdue for some karma after what he put poor Kevin through. I'd be happy about Abaddon giving him shit but she's no better.

I know Dean did not just kick Castiel out😣🤬without so much as money or food or any necessities.🤬🤬🤬🤬

Oh heeeeeeeeeeeeell noooooooo. That son of a bitch!!!!!! 😠😡🤬🤬🤬Poor Cas looked so devastated. Bendito. You could pinpoint the exact moment his heart broke in half.

Poor guy had to rough it on the streets all alone, you don't just do that damn. He could've just sent him somewhere to stay like a friend's or a shelter.

Sam was all dazed and confused he had no idea what was going on afterwards. Dean you can't keep lying!!!! This man is so dumb!!!!

Not the angel that saved Sam's life turning to be bad :/

UGH I hate Metatron he is the WORST! Why do people keep listening to such a jackass?! And what he doesn't have the stomach to do his own dirty work?

KEVIN NOOOOOOOOOOOO

KEVIN - you deserved the best of everything! This one hurt me the worst y'all 😨😢😭😭😭😭

Is Dean allergic to good decision making?!?!?!?!!? After his latest fight with Sam, he fucks off and AGREES to work with Crowley? After everything the son of a bitch put him through? I knew nothing good would come of this. Dean was actually surprised that Tess died - I mean she chose to break the demon trap when she knew herself it was a bad idea. Now Dean has to deal with the mark of Cain 😤

I did find it interesting that the show decided to put a twist on the famous Cain & Abel story and how it echoed Sam and Dean's story. But there was no angel for Cain when he sacrificed himself, or his brother Abel.

Who knows how many other pairs of brothers throughout history were put in the same position across time? Cain and Abel were among the first humans…I don't think since the dawn of human existence it was just Cain and Abel then Sam and Dean. Not for a second. Especially with what we learn later…

Man Dean just gets douchier and douchier. With everyone, even Sam and Castiel. My God.

Abaddon died…yay? That Crowley son of a bitch. First he fucks Dean up, shoots up human blood ….recreatively? And strands his son out in present day despite the fact he was just in 1723. Will we even see Gavin again?

Man I really do not care for Metatron, I cannot wait till he dies. I mean I guess he’s pushing the narrative forward some but jeez what a douche.

Dean died nooooo

Then he became a demon…NOOOOOOOOOOOO

And he’s gonna be with Crowley

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

While the Dean and Castiel scenes got some good stuff going - Cas losing his powers and becoming mortal - why couldn’t he be picked up? The way these guys constantly drive around the country: If Dean really wanted to assure Cas was safe from any avenging angels post fall, he’s only a car ride away 😔

Anyway, kicking Cas out was a douchey thing to do but it made for good drama. As did having the two reunite a few episodes later.

There’s also the apology scene and them working together on cases, but after Dean gets the mark of Cain and Castiel gets pulled back into the angel stuff, their stories detract from one another. Dean does see Castiel again towards the end of the season but by that point he’s totally affected by the mark and Castiel is once again mixed up in angel shit so he doesn’t really get any quality time with Dean for more than half the season. It’s a shame because Dean probably could’ve used more time with his angel friend, given what the mark was putting him through. Oh, well.

#supernatural #supernatural season 9 #dean winchester #castiel #sam winchester #kevin tran #destiel #deancas #gadreel #crowley

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elizabethrobertajones · 3 years

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hi! is their any good lore or (more likely) what's your preferred headcanon on the metaphysics of demons? what actually *are* they, that is different from human souls they're made from, yet allows them to basically have human-like personalities in some cases (and be completely rabidly evil in others)?

Honestly the last few years have left me at “people be like that” and how hard is it anyway to convince someone who was already an asshole who got sent to hell that they’d suffer less if they inflicted pain back, and leaning into that will get you sick supernatural powers to do more evil with, and before you know it all these incel weirdoes who had an unhealthy murder-suicide pact in their head with the barista who had never even talked to them except to take their order and give them the side-eye when they stared too long, are in a weird one upmanship culture with each other about who can eat the most babies or whatever Hell’s current Evil Fad is in order to be the Most Alpha Bad Demon.

Which makes it a pretty chilling commentary before it was even fully in the epoch for pop culture commentary, on how society and herd mentality are warping people into terrible monsters, and many of those people are people who maybe would have been sympathetic and vulnerable and probably bullied and insecure a long time ago, but instead of being helped they’re put into this mill that twists them and feeds their insecurities and tells them who’s to blame for them and gives them a new sense of purpose and a club to belong to that for the first time they feel powerful and accepted and need an autocratic ruler to worship and follow and the only condition is to mete out pain? These people who’ve been filled with pain all their lives and would like nothing more than to lash out against everyone they perceive has hurt them?

I think the show has actually got into this a bit from the start with the Psychic Children stuff, and how Yellow Eyes was following them around bothering them and making their lives horrible in order to twist them or at least make them feel outside and alone and different. Like, after the Mary incident and seeing how John took up arms, he didn’t have to do SHIT with Sam until he was an adult, but some of the kids had had him whispering to them since childhood, probably because they were living too stable middle class comfortable lives and needed a push. Max for example didn’t have any known contact from Yellow Eyes though because he also grew up in an abusive home, and the people around him did all the work to turn him into a killer as soon as he had special powers to pay it back to those who hurt him.

A lot of the season 1-4 messaging was very much how Sam and Dean were good men because they had been put through this or sent to hell and how they struggled against what they thought might be their nature either from basically birth for Sam or the abuse Dean was put through (Dream a Little Dream very clearly showing how Dean could be someone who was ripe for demonisation just from his upbringing even before the torture because he had these things which could be twisted to make him evil if someone was going to manipulate him)... Sam’s side was all based on magic bullshit and he turned out to be mostly good all the way through even when he was being very very bad, but Dean’s struggles always were framed through this. Like the season 7 episode with Jeffrey, who was very strongly paralleled with Dean and put attention back on him having been a torturer in hell long after the main narrative had moved on from Dean’s trauma. But even when Dean did get demonised through magic bullshit it still was more based in his character than the way Sam struggled through knowing he should be a good guy and wanting to be a good guy and just always finding more magic bullshit in the way when he tried.

So I think you can say this is sort of the reasoning the show’s always given for how demons end up like that... Like, Ruby being a witch with a demon pact before she died meant she was very in control of herself and probably needed no torture whatsoever to pop back up as a demon because she was already willing to do these horrible things. Likewise idk if it was confirmed Rowena was a demon or just a dead soul in Hell who was too scary to fuck with, but either way she was allowed to just waltz onto the throne without any real process of suffering because she was so well suited to it from her life, even if her death was a heroic sacrifice and she had become a better person in life, she was still a blatantly hellbound soul and then once there blatantly a step above MOST souls Hell would ever be lucky to get their hands on. Dean on the other hand was someone who would resist at every step and have to be seriously broken by prolonged torture to ever even start him on the path. Rowena might not even NOTICE the day she slips from human soul to demon :P

I think back in season 10/11 there was more of an effort to suggest cosmic nonsense and the balance of hell to heaven and demons to angels and amara to chuck, giving Amara similar looking powers to demons with black smoke especially, and of course Dean and Cain being demonised as just an inherent part of their souls being in contact with her. No one ever laid down any ground rules about this but I suppose the magical process has to be at least somewhat borne out since Lucifer had the Mark at one point when he started making demons, so probably the Darkness has its spooky fingers in the mechanics of all this somewhere. But the psychological aspect is far more interesting to me. :D

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