#and I like palpatine as a villain

[foundfamilynonsense]

You know what I hate? When readers claim there’s an ambivalent ending of a book because the author doesn’t force feed it to you.

Except sometimes the author 100% does force feed it to them and they still can’t grasp it.

I’m referring mostly to the death of characters. For example there are heated debates about whether or not Winston dies soon after the end of the 1984. As if it is not painfully obvious that’s what happens. Earlier in the book we hear about a group of men who were executed by Big Brother. It’s said they were arrested and pled guilty to a bunch of horrible crimes and were released (exactly what happened when Winston was captured). They were seen in the chestnut cafe (y’know the same one Winston frequents after being released) where a song comes on (the same one that comes on at the end of the book) and all three men are seen looking at Big Brother’s picture and crying (like Winston does when he discovers he loves Big Brother).

But even if you forget that detail there’s still the knowledge that Winston was told “we’re not going to kill you until you love Big Brother” and the last line of the book was that Winston loved Big Brother.

There’s a similar issue with possibly my favorite book of all time: Ghachar Ghochar

The last line of the book is literally someone (who has been built up as this all knowing guy) walking up to the narrator and saying something along the lines of “sir you should wash your hands, you have blood on them.” The character is referring to the actual blood from the broken glass but come on people. That mixed with the huge conversation his family had about how to kill someone the proper way. And yet when we read it in class even my professor was asking what people thought happened to the wife. Saying it was up to interpretation and there were many possible answers.

No! Just because we don’t see the light leave their eyes in scene does not mean they could be alive!!! Writers should be able to trust their readers. And readers shouldn’t be constantly worried that writers are trying to fake them out.

And you know what? I blame popular movies these days. Not to be a crank academic but like. If you see a building blow up with someone inside they should just be dead okay? I shouldn’t have to think “yeah but the writers are just trying to scare us they didn’t actually kill that character off.” But I have to think these things because now we have Loki back from the dead for the fifth or sixth time and Boba Fett got swallowed by a monster in the eighties and yet here he is with his own show.

Writers should be able to kill people off screen and not have people going “well we don’t know”

But they can’t do that because shitty companies like Disney feel the need to squeeze money out of every character while still trying to have actual stakes. So they only sort of die. They got away from the explosion just in time, or they’re just in a coma (stranger things), or they crawled out of the monster’s stomach after everyone left or it’s their clone with that person’s consciousness (Star Wars) or it’s another timeline’s version of them or he was legally dead for three days but was brought back or the heart monitor was tampered with to fake his death (marvel). This is actually terrible, terrible writing okay? Occasionally a death fake out can work but nine times out of ten it’s just stupid. Because now we have people saying “we don’t know for sure he’s dead because we never see the body and even then who knows”

Anita in Ghachar Ghochar is dead. So is Winston Smith in 1984. Both writers actively killed these characters. They did not leave it “up to interpretation” just because they didn’t show the blood spill from their head.

#I’ve been seeing a lot of talk about how people want to bring mace windu back #or have him survive the fall #and I love #love #love mace windu #but what a stupid idea I’m sorry #of course if it were up to me palpatine boba fett echo ahsoka and every other Star Wars character killed only to have actually survived #would be dead the first time #I like boba fett #I like echo #I like ahsoka #and I like palpatine as a villain #but bringing a character back to life is the fastest way to get me to hate them #unless you kill them with the express purpose to have them go through a resurrection arc (Jon snow for example) #then you just shouldn’t kill them at all #don’t kill a character if you’re not prepared to never use them again okay #1984 #Ghachar Ghochar #anti marvel #anti Loki #anti book of boba fett #boba fett #star wars #stranger things

[asocial-skye]

This is probably elaborated on a lot more in detailed meta, but for all of the shit that Lucas has pulled and all of his questionable decisions, Palpatine is probably his greatest triumph as a villain within narrative. Yes, he is absolutely a cartoon with no redeeming qualities, and Anakin definitely has a more dynamic character arc, but it's still incredible.

Star Wars as a franchise is associated with war and wartime: laser sword battles, epic forbidden romance, last stand trench runs against powerful enemies. It's all action, stylized violence and "rule of cool." There is good character writing and plot of course, but the public perception of Star Wars as a whole is about the cool space wizards and laser guns.

So it's absolutely curious that Lucas, in a trilogy that he said was geared towards children, had his villain do none of the things that made Star Wars so famous. Palpatine never fought ever. Except in Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine's horrible crimes all stemmed from his politics, and his cunning. Part of the Jedi's blindness to Sidious was that he was playing them on a field that they didn't expect: politics.

The Jedi are not politicians, nor have any interest in politics; the movies make this painfully clear. (The fact that the Council just goes and attempts to execute Palpatine, a popular leader who was "democratically" elected-I will give the Jedi credit; Palpatine is a monster, and killing him then and there was probably necessary- shows that there aren't the most politically minded) Palpatine literally does more damage to the entire galaxy that has repercussions for a generation- seriously, people like Biggs probably lived and died within the Empire- than Anakin could ever do during Operation: Knightfall or even as his tenure as Vader. And the Jedi can't do anything to stop it because they refused to play the game. In fact, one could make the argument that refusing to play only meant that Palpatine could carry out his agenda even faster.

It's almost like the bad guy won because any damage wreaked by an army of space wizards can be done a thousandfold by one politician. And it's like the lesson is that if you turn a blind eye to the injustices in your government, the corruption festers until it turns into something unspeakably horrid, and by then it'll be too late.

That's something to think about.

#starwars #star wars #darth sidious #sheev palpatine #palpatine #the empire #gffa #democracy #the jedi #jedi #like i know that the writing of the prequels was fucked #but at least we got palpatine out of it #i have no idea whether this is what Lucas wanted #but this is what we received #at least in my opinion #the greatest villain of all time is a politician #and that's the tea #sw prequels #prequel trilogy #darth vader #jedi council #gffa politics #star wars meta #fandom meta #meta

[maulfucker]

Kinda funny that Maul was like. The one star wars villain who wasn't a space fascist.

#hm i should make an original post tag #darth maul #maul #said this in a message to a friend. and I'm right. #like. palpatine vader and dooku are obvious. grievous and ventress were (probably) hoping to get a spot in the upcoming empire too #hondo doesn't count as a villain to me he was more like. a funny criminal who got in the way sometimes #maul wanted a spot in his master's plan but he never really had one. he was not a separatist (in fact dooku and grievous wanted him dead) #and judging by the inquisitors hunting him I'd say he was not too friendly towards the empire either #he was a space crime lord yes he committed war crimes yes but at least he wasn't a space fascist #he was just an angry weirdo who was super obsessed with one jedi

[idiosyncraticrednebula]

People on social media will get mad as hell and call you problematic if you enjoy a villain for being, well, a villain.

#txt #“this villain promotes bad values” ok and what's your point? #just because a character is morally questionable it doesn't mean i can't like them lmao #we are in an age where you can't like anything that isn't “pure” and “progressive”. fuck off #now if the villain's stans are actually trying to paint them as a poor misunderstood angel victim that's DIFFERENT #and let's be honest stans (usually female mind you) do this when the villain is attractive/hot/sexy #if a dude is ugly or fat there is no way you would have swarms of women defending that son of a bitch #but because he was drawn to be hot (or the actor who plays is hot) some chicks are READY to paint him as a poor baby #like... baby you are missing the point #just appreciate that son of a bitch as he is. there is no need to “sympathize” with him #i miss it when villains were villains and people appreciated that about them #anyways yes a character can be a very shitty person and you can still like them because that's the entire point of them #they are the antagonist/villain #i enjoy palpatine as a villain but that doesn't mean i think he was a poor lonely wholesome baby #that piece of shit deserved to be burn in hell lol but he still is a fantastic villain #but again tumblr twitter and fandom in general have no grasp of the concept of enjoying villains because they are villains #one side thinks you are fucking evil and disgusting if you admit to enjoying a villain #and the other side wants to find every justification in the book to paint the pos as an actual good person who is misunderstood :( because #that mofo has a six pack and a nice smile or is generally visually appealing lol

[weedle-testaburger]

unpopular opinion but actually i love when heroes refuse to kill their enemies and no one is gonna make me not love it

#personal crap #i think it makes writers have to be more creative about how they solve problems #plus it allows you to play with the morality of killing and what ways to fight are ok #(doctor who and su do that a lot obviously and imho it slaps idc what anyone else says) #and have stone cold badass moments of like emotional superiority (vash from trigun does that a fair bit #and my favourite recent example is how in gotg 3 rocket refuses to kill the high evolutionary bc he knows he's already won #and doesn't want to do to him what he did to lylla teefs and floor) #when heroes do just kill their enemies in cold blood it feels kinda boneheaded to me by comparison #not to mention a lot of purity culture weirdos loooove when villains are just one-dimensional evil dicks who have to be destroyed #bc that plays really nicely into their morality #oh and i just thought of another one: in rotj luke refusing to kill palpatine to take his place is so cool #especially in contrast to how in tros rey just kills him like it's nothing even though they spent the whole trilogy #building up the idea her allegiance to the light side of the force isn't as strong as most jedi #only to go 'nah if you kill palpatine everything's good'

[supremeprince-bensolo]

As much as I dislike the route they went in tros I do think I wouldn’t have disliked it as much if.

1. They kept Rey as a nobody. Having Palpatine lie and having her not taking the Skywalker name

2. Had Rose be in the group instead of Chewie or the worm thingy at the beginning of the movie (let the new cast have more screen time)

3. Have Ben be with Rey during the final fight instead of being blasted into a hole, and if he had to die (which I won’t get into) have the epilogue be Rey searching for a way to resurrect him instead of burying lightsabers…Finish what Anakin started with triumphing over death.

Completely agree with all of this!

Rey should have been a nobody, and they shouldn’t have even entertained the idea of her being a Palpatine. I would have loved for her at the end of her journey to come to the conclusion that just Rey is enough. I think that would have been so powerful.

Yes yes yes!! Rose should not have stayed back at the base for the entire movie doing... I don’t even know what she doing? Klaud was such a pointless character??? Like... why would they take him on a mission instead of Rose? She should have 100% been involved with the main crew. And yes to letting the new ST characters have more screen time!

Rey and Ben defeating the villain together is what should have happened. It doesn’t make sense for Rey to be able to do it on her own. They told us their dyad is a power like life itself. They are two that are one. They need to be together for great things to happen.

Ben should not have died. That is the main thing that breaks the story. (Also Kylo Ren symbolically died and Ben was reborn... but that’s another story.) Unless, as you said, they were planning to bring him back. Have the ending be Rey hearing Ben call out to her from the WBW or something along those lines. They could have made it feel like an ending of this chapter, but left the door open for the next chapter. Leaving us feeling hopeful.

Finish what Anakin started with triumphing over death.

THIS!!! I love that.

#ask #anonymous #tros #anti tros #thanks for the ask!! #there were so many small changes that would have made the movie 100 times better #I have so many thoughts #I haven't even thought about for years haha #like palpatine being the villain could have worked so well #if they'd focussed on him trying to get to ben but failing #so instead he targets his dyad rey #and she almost turns to the dark side #and yeah there are so many interesting ways they could have gone #also of course there should have been a stormtrooper rebellion #I'm ranting now haha #mytxt

[jewishcissiekj]

E. K. Johnston's dedication to writing books that could be so good but just miss everything that would make them good would be admirable if. it was anything to admire

#yael is reading star wars #hey i liked ahsoka #but it just missed the spot on so many things #the queen's trilogy is fine #(reading queen's peril rn) #her books are just dry in a way i can't explain #and plotless #but i don't think she wanted to write a padme book #there's too much palpatine in this one #absolutely unnecessary yoda & mace and qui-gon & obi-wan scenes #it feels like she wanted to write a prequel to tpm #but then remembered she's supposed to write a padme book #ugh #also she's trying SO HARD to villainize Panaka #which is... um #weird #considering he's being antagonized for literally just doing his job #not to start with the underlying racism at every corner #not a fan of this #queen's peril

[tranakin-skywalker]

Who is your most disliked star wars character and why 👀

Oddly enough I don't tend to dislike characters. The most I get is indifference, just a complete non-opinion.

Actually wait no

Rush Clovis

I suppressed my memories of those episodes so hard I forgot he existed. Though it's more the writing choices rather than the character himself I dislike. I'll admit, I only ever watched the Clovis episodes once and that was several years ago so I don't remember them very well at all.

I think mostly I just dislike that the writers used him to get Padme and Anakin both to behave in ways that are entirely out of character for their movie counterparts, and it pisses me off to no end. Like, I'm fine with characters acting ooc, but only when the writers give me a convincing reason to why they're behaving that way. I actually find that really interesting! For me it's less a question of if someone is acting out of character and instead what would it take for them to behave this way realistically? And those episodes episodes failed spectacularly at that.

Honestly, it's probably the wasted potential more than anything else that annoys me.

#it's actually very hard for me to dislike a character #even ones i find annoying like jar jar or c3po i still find things to love about them #i think it's my habit of looking at characters and asking 'what made you this way?' that always gets me invested in them #i want to know what kind of person would make those choices. what is the history that created this? how do these characters view themselves #and how do they interact with the world around them #i think that's why i have a lot of love for characters that my subset of fandom has a tendency to bash like qui-gon or mace windu #they're so much more interesting to me as well rounded characters with flaws and virtues than as punching bags to hate on #or characters like palpatine who could so easily be one note 'pure evil' villain but actually can have so much depth and complexity if you #do the legwork

[grandmofftarkinsuggestions]

'what's wrong with him' 'they made the citadel arc have actual relevance to the plot of animated sw besides the underrated ani + ahsoka character moments and having ani and tarkin interact' 'oh that's good why is he pacing his enclosure and snarling' 'they didn't actually give it any closure they just made a side character relevant again and while he is admittedly a good addition as a character to the bad batch they still never gave any closure on the citadel arc despite it ending on what is essentially a cliff hanger' 'ohhh.'

#MFW THEY ROBBED MEE OF TARKIN MOMENTS GRRR GROWL NO CLOSURE #'i'm reporting to the jedi council 😒' 'well i'm reporting to palpatine 🥰' why not at least have a palpatine #moment about the nexus route 🙃 please. apparently palpatine gave the coordinates to the separatists so like #whyyyy not talk about it ??? please. it was such a big thing please more palpatine being a little two side playing freak at least. #no more implicit closure! please i need more i need itt i need palptine imperial march evil villain heehee hoohoo yes tarkin good boy momen #sw #wilhuff tarkin #tcw

[xxxcertifiednerdxxx]

Ok i love Star Wars but i feel like a problem it has is we just can’t comprehend the mass of a galactic civilization.

The empire is kind of an analogy for attempted world domination I guess, but the republic and the confederacy/separatists kind of seem like two conuntries, even tho it’s meant to be like two political parties that multiple planets/countries are part of (maybe like the allies and the axis in wwii?) I also don’t know really anything about Star Wars pre phantom menace in the timeline sooooo idk how the galaxy was organized before.

And then there’s the fact that Star Wars treats entire planets like they are just countries. That’s what I mean when I say we cannot comprehend the existing in such a large society. People go to a planet and hang out in like one city in Star Wars and call it a day.

we never really explore different climates on different parts of a planet. We rarely see different cultures on one planet. (You’re telling me the entire planet of Naboo is only inhabited by the Gungans and the Naboo??? Yeah right) we don’t explore much differentiation in dialects or anything like that either.

And since aliens are a thing, i think we should have planets where so many different species and races coexist. Bringing back Naboo, how cool is it that humans and Gungans naturally exist on the same planet? (I think they do anyways, please don’t kill me if actually one of those people migrated to the planet at some point.) There should be more planets with tons of specie diversity!

idk maybe people don’t care as much as i do, and I should give Star Wars creators some slack since galaxy building is a lot more challenging than just world building, but I feel like we don’t get to see the rich depth of a whole galaxy.

#nerd out #nerd-out #the different species and cultures and planets is so fascinating to me #and I love that when space travel was made possible in this galaxy they decided to go and explore and hang out with each other #and now you can just move to another planet #how awesome that they came together like that #It’s a shame people like palpatine ruin everything good #sw #star wars #yea I will take every chance I get to bash palpatine I hate him so much #He’s a good villain in that I want him to burn #naboo #the naboo #gungans

[frumfrumfroo]

Your position on redemption stories is well documented. But how do you feel about stories where a character is offered redemption and rejects it?

I can't think of one that's like.. notable? It's so commonplace in thriller, adventure, and high fantasy that it's basically a ticky box. I would hazard a guess more superhero movies (and comics) have such a moment than don't. It's paint by numbers and it's the most boring option. It's also usually the reactionary option.

To introduce a redemption arc and then subvert it by having the character explicitly, wilfully shoot it down while going on to be evil forever is most often done in a way that is intentionally shitting on the entire concept of redemption being possible. There are certainly exceptions, but those are mostly found in formal tragedy and are basically never about commitment to evil. Genuine rejection of goodness per se will always result in a flat character.

'Haha, you fool, I just love being evil!' is never an interesting answer to the question posed by a redemption narrative.

#it's just so boring #reactionary and boring #like yeah we really need to make sure the 'tee hee silly rabbit compassion is a weakness to be exploited' message is repeated CONSTANTLY #'how stupid of the hero to treat the villain like a human being and consider anything other than violence as a solution to anything' #I appreciate the hoary trope of the starry eyed idealist hero who's just gotta try to get through to Evil McEvilface #but most pop culture depictions of it are hacky and thoughtless #shit like Reypatine the Herobot telling Palpatine she doesn't hate him #like fuck off #they did literally nothing to earn that whatsoever #I am literally always down for a hero who does not want to kill the villain but there's a reason the usual execution gets mocked so often #where Captain Hero has been mowing down mooks the whole movie and then can't kill Evil von Hitler or he will be just like him #and then you get a Disney Death where the villain dies of hubris to keep the Hero's hands clean #or the mildly sympathetic villain the hero tries to save and then he betrays him and the hero accidentally kills him self defence etc. #whatever it's just always the most boring choice and it is a choice made by cowards #I mean there's Trigun but in Trigun it is compelling and interesting because Vash /will never give up/ on Knives and he will never kill him #Vash has achieved moral victory and it's left as a question of whether Knives will allow himself to desire healing #he won't be conquered but Vash isn't interested in conquering him #there's hope and tension and triumph in it #Vash's arc is resolved even though outside circumstances haven't really changed #but Trigun is brave and good throughout the ending is not copping out or compromising anything #context makes it meaningful in a way this scenario almost never is

[dylan-welcome-bot]

⚠️FLASHING LIGHTS WARNING⚠️

More like, Darth Faul!

Get it because like gravity and stuff?

#star wars battlefront 2 #star wars #heros vs villains #bespin #prequel trilogy #original trilogy #sequel trilogy #obi wan kenobi #darth vader #darth maul #darth faul #you know #like fall? #sorry #luke skywalker #kylo ren #emperor palpatine in the back #and I think that was han solo who was defeated but idk

[benevolentslut]

just saw a youtube short that was like "you thought he was the villain but he's really the victim 😢" about darth vader and im once again just like. no he was definitely the fucking villain lmao

#victim of his circumstances? sure we can argue for that #he still made key decisions in those circumstances. he still was the one who gave into his flaws despite knowing why he shouldn't. #he still was the one who decided that since he was past redemption #that there was no point stopping the pain he was causing. #yes he was manipulated by palpatine. yes the jedi council mistreated him. #he was still the right-hand man of a fucking fascist empire he is STILL a villain #literally at the end of his life he says - 'it's too late for me to make up for what i've done but i'm going to put an end to this now' #and sacrifices himself to take out palpatine #THAT DOESN'T MAKE UP FOR EVERYTHING HE'S DONE HE LITERALLY SAYS SO HIMSELF #it doesn't suddenly mean he's morally pure!!! #like i can enjoy and appreciate the tragedy of his story as much as the next person but c'mon guys #like... the best you can say about him is 'he lost himself and hurt & killed countless people on the way to finding himself again' #like. good intentions in the beginning. good intentions at the end. STILL COMMITTED COUNTLESS ATROCITIES #like it's not a case of 'he's good again now so he was never the villain <3' #it's more 'he made the right decision in the end and that should earn him some respect but do not forget the suffering he has caused'

[coline7373]

Palpatine's granddaughter vs Palpatine's "granddaughter"

#palpatine #die sheevie #rey #star wars #star wars fanart #don't get me wrong #villains coming endlessly back to life #cloning #and #conscienciousness tranfer #are all canon #but if you were going there #what the fuck would you choose that noce girl who doesn't look even one tiny bit like him? #or the Skywalkers #or the Kenobis #I'm looking at you Korkie #yeah #I did this just to give myself an idea of what the fuck a young sheevie female descendant might look like #lol

[weedle-testaburger]

i asked for star wars heir to the empire for my bday, and the first chapter having grand admiral thrawn destroy a fleet by identifying the species through the artistic design of its planet was brilliantly slimy and a really interesting first impression

#personal crap #i see why eu fans seem to like this guy #star wars needs more calculating slimy villains palpatine slaps but more variety would be nice

[clonecylinderjuice]

the popular perception of Commander Fox's and Palpatine's relationship is just one that lacks all interest to me. There's no way Fox would be doing Palpatine's paperwork, Palpatine's worked like 60 years to get this plan into motion, he's not going to shove off unimportant duties on some random guard, no matter how high up he is. I also don't think he'd be abusive to the guard, in any way. Palpatine is not uniquely prejudiced against clones. He's literally just only for himself.

I think the real interesting relationship (to me, anyway, everyone's got preferences) is one where Fox is idk, maybe suspicious for how much he doesn't do. Sure, him and the Supreme Chancellor have a cordial working relationship, and duties on Coruscant are a lot easier than fighting out on the front, but aren't things almost too easy at times? Why does the Chancellor decline protection so often? Is there someone holding something over him? Is someone blackmailing the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic? What's going on?

#em noise #IDK MAN #INTRIGUE. MORAL DUBIOUSNESS. ANYTHING. #I think a lot of this frustration just stems from the fact I like Palpatine #He's such a fun villain. #and a lot of people just don't at all. I guess bc he's a villain #which. fine I guess. but it really feels like it flattens things.