#supernatural argument

[sammydontcrynomore]

Ok, this is what pissed me off about the Supernatural finale.

One of the things I loved about this show is its lessons.

And one of the most valuable lessons is that you choose your Family.

If someone is related to you but he/she is nothing but a douchebag, if he/she never be there for you, if he/she is toxic, then it's not your Family.

And that, that is a fucking deep lesson.

I for example struggled for years bc I thought that if someone is related to me, even if he/she had always been a shitty person, is anyway my family and I owe he/she something.

Supernatural taught me that it's not like that. Supernatural taught me that true Family is who is always there for you, especially during hard times. It's who cares for you, it's who knows everything about you, bad and good things, and still loves you.

And it's not about blood, it's not about being related.

It's a fucking important lesson that can change the way you see life and relationships.

And then comes the finale.

And everything is erased.

How painful are these words? After all the things they did and all the people they've met, the Family they've built...

The last Dean's speech is all about him and Sam, ONLY he and Sam. He said that the only important thing is Sam, always been. Period.

And then he goes to heaven and meets Bobby. Bobby was like a father to him and Sam, always helped them and protected them. But hey no time for you, just as I understand how heavens work (and most of all that Sam will come) time for me to go.

He tells Dean that Rufus is here, that his parents are here, and that Cas is here, but nothing and no one is important to Dean.

He just wants to wait for Sam. That's all.

He doesn't care for his parents, his friends, and even for Cas. Cas who is Family, bc he said that multiple times.

But nothing matters anymore, just him and Sam. He has to wait anyway so why in the hell wouldn't he go to see one of them?

He would care to know if they're ok, if everything is fine. He would go to see and talk to them, telling them everything that happened.

Why they have to erase everything that was built in fifteen seasons?

Of course Dean cares about Sam! Of course is one, maybe even the most, important person in his life but is not the only one! 

Why they erase all the relationships they've built, all the people they care about, the ones who even if they're not blood became Sam and Dean's Family?

This is not the Supernatural I know, this is not the Supernatural I love.

#supernatural finale #supernatural last season #supernatural season 15 #spn #supernatural argument #finale supernatural #dean winchester #sam winchester #castiel #supernatural #dean and cas #jensen ackles #misha collins #about supernatural #sam and cas #dean #sam #cas #spn15 #carry on #destiel #deancas #deansam #bobby singer #jim beaver #supernatural writing #supernatural quotes

[paellegere]

i rewatched the sex scene between dean and cassie, and the samulet is such an active player in this it's driving me insane. it's often the brightest object on the screen, for one, and on top of that it remains more or less in the middle of the screen, propped between them.

then, when cassie starts kissing dean's chest, the dark lighting makes it appear as if she also kisses the amulet due to where it's lying on dean's chest. and when dean flips her over, the samulet dangles between them until it finally drops onto cassie's parted lips:

and then dean dives down and kisses her, not removing the samulet from between them:

and again the dark lighting makes it uncertain whether the amulet is locked between their lips—the subtle implication is that it's there, touching both of them, because the darkness doesn't reveal to the contrary. the samulet is thus a participant in the scene, engaging in acts of intimacy between dean and cassie. and the samulet representing dean's love for and devotion to sam, transfers that intimacy indirectly onto sam as the unwitting third party to the first sex scene in the show.

so anyway why the hell does the samulet stay on during sex if not for incestuous purposes

#supernatural #wincest #1.13 #i rewatched this to help my argument in my previous post but i needed to talk about this on its own because wtf #the implication that they both kiss the samulet as if paying respects to sam or acknowledging his integral role in this act #absolutely sickening. who decided that #.txt #spn posting

[jenanigans1207]

All I’m saying is that in the supernatural universe, I firmly believe that the most popular destiel fics are written and posted by one Sam Winchester under a pen name. And he doesn’t even come up with elaborate plots. He just dictates, almost verbatim, interactions he witnesses Cas and Dean having and then just tacks a kiss or a love confession on the end.

And everyone comments about how he just gets their characters, how he builds such convincing sexual and romantic tension, how the characters feel like real people instead of words on a page. Sam is the most popular destiel ao3 author, his fics on every single rec list, and it’s simply because he got tired of watching Dean and Cas pine uselessly for each other so he decided to make it everyone’s problem.

#I just know #that every time destiel has one of their arguments or staring matches and Sam is in the background on his computer #he’s not doing research #or just scrolling the internet to be uninvolved #he is typing out a transcript of what’s happening in front of him #so he can go to his room later and turn it into a fic #he knows both of them so well it doesn’t even feel like a lie to say he knows Dean’s fingers were shaking #or cas could feel his heartbeat in his throat #he felt weird about it once #but now he has an audience to please #and the weight of their unbearable UST is easier to bear with all these other people sharing the burden #destiel #deancas #spn #supernatural #Sam Winchester #Dean Winchester #Castiel

[mathmusicreading]

Currently thinking about the title of Supernatural season 4 episode 1 "Lazarus Rising". It's so simple and so evocative. I think I get something extra from it because I love Terry Pratchett, Discworld, Hogfather, Discworld's Death, and the quote "where the falling angel meets the rising ape". (Do the Destiel shippers go wild with this? The Cas fans supporting his love for humanity and even creating free will? They should.) But just on it's own, it's referencing coming back to life and the phrasing has connotations of ascension and empowerment. It also avoids connotations of zombies or likening Dean to Jesus Christ.

On that note, I wonder how much Supernatural meant to parallel Dean Winchester to Lazarus of Bethany, and Castiel to Jesus for that matter. (With how little I engage with Supernatural canon, I think my thoughts on Chuck's relationship with Castiel are mixed and not set, but for fun right now: Castiel is Chuck's favorite angel, and Chuck hates it and hates him for it!)

Dean was dead for four months, much like Lazarus was dead for four days. (Dean was also in hell for 40 years, a significant number and amount of time in the Bible. And moving away from the Christianity angle, four is a fitting motif with Dean's death given "four" sounding like "death" in Mandarin Chinese.)

Dean is "the righteous man", while part of the title with which Lazarus is venerated is "Righteous Lazarus".

If "risen dead" evokes zombies and "risen from the dead" invokes Jesus, then "Lazarus rising" conveys that the subject of resurrection is a normal human, and the key is that they are resurrected by a great power who is good. Specifically, Lazarus is resurrected by Jesus, the Son of God, and Dean is resurrected not by a necromancer or demon, but by the angel Castiel, sent on a holy mission.

Jesus did not immediately save Lazarus, rushing to heal him upon hearing of his illness, but waited two days before traveling to and resurrecting Lazarus after he died. I can't help but feel like this is similar to Castiel's not rescuing Dean until 40 years into Dean's sentence in Hell, after he had broken on the rack and become a torturer shedding blood in Hell.

Jesus did not merely heal Lazarus when he was sick, but resurrected him after death, for God's glory and that people might believe in Jesus' own coming resurrection. (God resurrecting Castiel, anyone?) I think Supernatural canon is not explicitly clear, and it may be widespread fanon or a popular fan head canon that Castiel was sent immediately to rescue Dean, but wow the similarity to Jesus and his mission if Cas couldn't reach Dean or wasn't sent until after Dean broke because of heaven's ultimate plan to carryout the apocalypse, rescuing Dean not being about saving a righteous man but about breaking the first seal to Lucifer's cage.

Not full of meaning, but Jesus resurrected Lazarus in his tomb and still wrapped in his grave cloths. So for the people jokingly asking why Castiel left Dean in his coffin, six feet under, instead of zapping him out, it's because we're really leaning into the Jesus angle. (Is Cas lobotomized Jesus?!)

And the kickers now that we've gone through all that: Jesus wept. He was moved with compassion for Lazarus' sisters and friends. He mourned Lazarus' death even while on the way to resurrect him. It was well known by all that he loved Lazarus. Take that how you will and run with it, Cas fans and Destiel shippers!

Last thing not being included with the rest because you can't as easily get it just from reading John 11:1-44 or doing an internet search for Lazarus. DiscIaimer that above, I got the title with which Lazarus is venerated in the Eastern Orthodox Church from Wikipedia, and so too the following Biblical interpretation/theological commentary.

The miracle of the raising of Lazarus is the climax of John's "signs". It explains the crowds seeking Jesus on Palm Sunday, and leads directly to the decision of Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin to plan to kill Jesus. Theologians Moloney and Harrington view the raising of Lazarus as a "pivotal miracle" which starts the chain of events that leads to the Crucifixion of Jesus. They consider it as a "resurrection that will lead to death", in that the raising of Lazarus will lead to the death of Jesus, the Son of God, in Jerusalem which will reveal the Glory of God.[17]

Dean's resurrection led to Castiel's death. Castiel died because he saved and loved Dean. When Castiel first laid a hand on [Dean] in Hell, he was lost! Castiel died because Chuck is a Pharisee that can't accept his manly everyman main character (sorry, Sam) is bisexual instead of straight. Chuck can be bisexual, but the manly everyman main character has to be straight, and so he killed Castiel for it. Dean too if you believe Chuck won.

And if the point of Lazarus' resurrection is Jesus' divinity, then the point of Dean's resurrection is that the angel is gay and Dean is bi!

#Supernatural #SPN #Destiel #Dean Winchester #Castiel #4x1 #Lazarus Rising #Lazarus #Jesus #Terry Pratchett #Discworld #Hogfather #Death (Discworld) #meta #Christianatural #Christianity #Given that this meta had an argument and conclusion I will make the joke #Thank you for coming to my TED Talk #I apologize to Jupernatural #but Christianity is my lense #and I do feel like I was invited to use it by the episode title being a reference to the New Testament in the Bible

[wickedwitchofthesouth]

Just made my self cry over the realisation that Morgana and Arthur are perfect parallels of what Dean and Sam would have become if Sam let lucifer take him. And to an extent, despite that not happening they are still very very similar:

Arthur and Dean being their fathers perfect little soldiers. Morgana and Sam being the defiant, rebellious siblings who really just wanted to be heard. Dean and Arthur always having to be the mediators. Sam and Morgana always being forced into becoming the instigators. DEAN AND ARTHUR FALLING IN LOVE WITH THE ONE THING THEY SWORE TO HATE FOREVER. Sam and Morgana becoming the things they swore to hate forever.

Dean and Arthur being Courage, Sam and Morgana being strength

Cas and Merlin being Magic

#i know gwaine is strength but for arguments sake lets say its morgana #even at the end of her reign morgana always thought that she was doing the right thing #her goal was always to bring liberation to magic folk. her mistake was taking that liberation at the cost of innocent lives #i love when my hyperfixations cross over #supernatural #castiel #dean winchester #sam winchester #destiel #bbc merlin #merthur #arthur pendragon #merlin #morgana #gwaine #courage magic strength #parallels #spn

[castielinpastel]

i would just like to point out that the argument “why can’t people just be friends anymore??” usually only comes up on posts about queer ships. not always, but 99% of the time.

#like honestly #why do you care if I ship an unproblematic ship involving two characters I think mesh well together? #it’s none of your business #i think they’re neat and they bring me joy #you don’t have to be negative about it #also yes this post is mainly about wenclair & elmax because there is not one single edit without this argument in the comments- #it’s so infuriating #ships #wenclair #elmax #ronance #byler #destiel #plus many more but these came to mind first #stranger things #supernatural #wednesday

[lukesfrag]

Someone: "Sam is a top because he's tall-" Me:

#I've seen a lot of arguments used but this is the shittiest of them all #Being tall is not a criterion for being a top #And even if it was Sam still doesn't fit as a top 😉 #Furthermore tall bottoms and short tops exist #sam winchester #bottom!sam #supernatural

[licieoic]

"Argument" - Digital Oil Painting

Now kiss and make up!

Please see the pinned post at the top of my Tumblr for my links if you'd like to help support me in saving for a safe place to live!

#argument #supernatural #spn #supernatural fanart #spn fanart #destiel #destiel fanart #deancas #deancas fanart #spn cast #spn fandom #dean x castiel #dean winchester #castiel #jensen ackles #misha collins #digital oil painting #licieoic paints

[fromtheseventhhell]

I love how Stark stans claim that the whole Children of the Forest (a brown-skinned indigenous race) somehow didn’t count as settler colonialism and genocide because they weren’t human. Like ??? As if fantasy writers haven’t been using fantasy races in their racism allegories for decades. Besides, so what if they weren’t human ?Clearly, they were sentient beings with complex thought processes, complex underground structures and a way of life, had a religion and places of worship (the Old Gods and the weirwood trees), not to mention a language to communicate so they were civilised enough to engage in a war with the First Men, are able to speak and understand the Common Tongue, and wiping them out is still terrible regardless of their relation to humanity (or lack of thereof).

And Leaf herself debunk the idea that COTF are trees and squirrels, and GRRM calls her a “little woman”: “The First Men named us children,” the little woman said. “The giants called us woh dak nag gran, the squirrel people, because we were small and quick and fond of trees, but we are no squirrels, no children. Our name in the True Tongue means those who sing the song of earth. Before your Old Tongue was ever spoken, we had sung our songs ten thousand years.” — ADWD, Bran II

The thing about this fandom is that they view the Starks as having a divine right to the North in a way that no other family has to their lands. So even though they'll insist that Dany has no right to the Iron Throne because her family was usurped, the Starks deserve to reclaim the North because it was "stolen" from them. If the COTF weren't physically there in the story I could slightly understand (not that I would agree) people ignoring that aspect of the Stark's history, but they are fully realized and present. Apparently, them being supernatural is enough for people to ignore the Starks being colonizers when, like you said, racism allegories exist. And I can guarantee that the reaction wouldn't be the same if it was the Targaryens who were responsible for eradicating them. Instead, we get people headcanoning the Starks as indigenous (of course only the ugly/feral ones) which is just even more offensive. This is why it's so annoying that discussions on racism have been turned into just another fandom argument, like who deserves the throne. People's opinions on it are influenced by what characters they like instead of being objective on the subject.

#ask #anon #fandom nonsense #fandom racism #anti house stark stans #this is why I'm never gonna call myself a /house stark stan/cause they are one of the most annoying groups in fandom #and most of them are show stans on top of that so there's even less logic behind their arguments #the cotf are supernatural so it doesn't count but the Targs are horrible colonizers who deserve to die out...alright #if you don't want to discuss the topic then fine but don't call one house colonizers while ignoring the history of another lol #that's not how it works #and the fact that people /defend/ the Starks being colonizers while pearl-clutching about the Targs is hilarious #they want the targs to be extra evil but that's not anywhere in the story

[archivistsammy]

stackednatural, may 15

We are not gonna make the same mistake all over again.

3.16 “no rest for the wicked” // 8.23 “sacrifice”

#stackednatural #supernatural #spnedit #cowboycoven #spncreatorsdaily #dean winchester #sam winchester #winchester brothers #3.16 #no rest for the wicked #s3 #8.23 #sacrifice #s8 #our edits #spn stacks #category is: enmeshment #this is obviously a theme that runs throughout the show but what strikes me about this stack is that dean is using the same point to make #very different arguments #in s3 he is wary of how bad actors use their familial devotion against them #while in s8 he is the one playing on that familial devotion #from we are not gonna make the same mistake all over again to let's make the same mistake all over again

[vaiyamagic]

Going through the Our Flag Means Death tag is a trip.

A good third of the posts are a detailed analysis of why Izzy's death was narratively good and meaningful and not 'bury your gays,' while another third are about how Izzy's death was pointless and cruel and a betrayal and absolutely 'bury your gays/disabled people.'

#ofmd season 2 #ofmd spoilers #ofmd #our flag means death #both arguments make good points #i liked izzy and loved his growth and was sad when he died #but i don't think it was a bury your gays moment nor do i think it was narratively pointless #i also don't think we've seen the last of him #either he's not actually dead #or he's coming back either as a ghost or gets resurrected #as much as i love the idea of ghost #the show hasn't really done supernatural as reality yet #have weird things happened? yes #are they actually magic/supernatural? ...maybe? #we'll see

[paellegere]

there is interesting johndean subtext and insinuations across kripke era, usually through an antagonist insinuating parent-child sexual violence in order to exert dominance over dean. this type of mockery exploits that ambiguous relationship between john and dean and reminds dean that he never had a normal relationship with his father, and that makes him gross and wrong. it doesn't actually matter in the end whether john was sexually abusive to dean. the core of their relationship was damning enough: dean was made to take the place of john's wife—to comfort john and raise sam—while simultaneously being his son. the codependent nature of their relationship implies the incest that underscores their dynamic. again, this is regardless of what literally occurred between dean and john because there is enough doubt toward the nature of their relationship that multiple antagonists can use it against them.

sonwife, brotherhusband—dean is stuck in a liminal space between family and lover and is unable to put his feet firmly on just one side and instead has to accept both together or abandon both together. he doesn't get to have a relationship with his family without it being simultaneously incestuous. he plays the role of wife to john and mother to sam as mary's replacement; he therefore becomes more than a son and transcends the boundaries of the familial into the incestuous. it's baked into the dynamic and he can't hope to escape the liminality in which he's stuck without abandoning his entire family altogether.

this ambiguous relationship is further acted out with sam, where people perceive them as lovers rather than brothers; where their mutual devotion trumps, neglects, and disallows any other close relationship outside each other; where their physical closeness is viewed through an unusually sexual lens despite no literal sex acts between them taking place on screen. once again dean is stuck in a liminal space, paralleling the ambiguous and uncertain relationship he had with john.

in the end, sex (and sexual violence) is just a symbol of this codependency and uncertainly incestuous dynamic. sex acts in kripke era end up being symbolic: misinterpretations of sam and dean's relationship; accusations of sexual violence; literal, on-screen sexual moments between the brothers and someone else. it's a literary device that highlights the incestuous themes of the show. dean hand-picks women for sam to fuck because it allows dean to be symbolically part of sam's sex life. henricksen accuses john of raping dean because it is a symbol of the unhealthy, codependent relationship dean had with his father. the samulet stays on during sex because sam is symbolically integral to dean's sexual gratification (seen too in the way both dean and cassie in 1.13 appear to kiss the amulet at least once in the dark room). sex is used to signify more than what's literally on the screen, and the connections between the literal sex acts and the blurred lines of dean's familial relationships allow for a reading of incest between both john and dean and sam and dean.

it never mattered whether johndean or samdean had a sexual relationship in the canon because that was never the point. the point is the liminality that permeates the narrative. sam, dean, and john all stand upon a threshold between acceptable and taboo. the point of it all is the doubt and anxiety, the are-they-aren't-they that is never answered. the absence of incest within the text invites the understanding that the incest was, in fact, always there.

#supernatural #wincest #samdean #johndean #i've been thinking about this yesterday since i talked about it with mac #figured i could share it here too and hopefully move on lol #i tried so hard to make this easy to understand but i fear that i will be misinterpreted nonetheless #i suppose that's what happens when your topic of choice is literally Doubt Uncertainty and Liminality #i focused this on dean's relation to the liminal incest of the narrative only because he's the common thread between johndean and samdean #obviously sam dean and john all equally occupy the liminal space here #dean simply worked as a good focal point through which i could make the argument #.txt #spn posting

[babygirldilf]

OK OK OK OK!!!!!! Important stuff!!!!!

Claire is so much like Dean that even he saw himself in her and chose to adopt her (let's be real Dean has such a golden heart that he adopts literally every kid he meets, but my point still stands). If you do not like Claire, you are sexist. I don't care. She is brave and smart and pure of heart and dumb of ass JUST LIKE HIM and she IS Dean's lesbian daughter and we both love her so so much don't even touch me I am on a roll here she is amazing and incredible and beautiful and she can barely keep it together on a good day but neither did Dean and look at him now!!!!!! He's learning!!! And he cares that she will learn too!!!!! They are father daughter excellence, and you can not convince me otherwise!!!!!

#claire novak #dean winchester #castiel #cas is obviously also he dad there will never be an argument #just an old gay married couple and their lesbian daughter #spn #supernatural #destiel

[child-of-hurin]

.

rare feanorian post: i do think it's incredible that feanor and nerdanel produced among their sons two sets of brotherwives

#and one widow! #i wonder if feanor would have grown jealous of them if he had lived (is he capable of so much self-awareness by that point) (or ever) #OR he would have developed acute and perhaps one sided brotherwiveism with fingolfin... on fingolfin's side it is called something else #except they were always more brotherdivorced than brothermarried. so maybe not #the concept here btw is not the baroque fantasy of marriage as the triumph of love but rather the modernist understanding of marriage as an #ambiguous trap of complicity and intimacy #shall we say: the cw supernatural argument #inane post #nightblogging

[tedhugheshater]

#mine #even if u dont fucj men lets just say so for the sake of the argument #supernatural #spn #.polls

[helloitshaley]

Please explain why you picked who you picked in the tags! (yes I just did this but I didn't have the right duration, also I kicked Esther off the list bc it didn't seem like a fair fight)

#i tried to keep the list mostly human not fully supernatural #i know the argument could be made that jennifer is fully supernatural but nah #polls #horror polls #tumblr polls #horror movies #horror villains