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gffa · 1 year

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Everyone has my absolute sympathy for trying to sort this stuff out, because there is so much source material to sort through and so much of a game of Telephone being played (ie, one person says something they believe to be true, the next person picks it up as hard fact and repeats it as such, then the next person also believes it but adding a bit of their own assumptions to what the previous posts said, on and on until we get to where we are now in fandom) that it can be hard to sort it all out. My best advice is to just start paying attention to sources on things--like when someone posts a quote from Wild Space, I automatically think, okay, that's in the Legends continuity, because I've looked up which books are in which continuity enough to know that. Once you start doing that often enough, you start naturally understanding what comes from what continuity. Like, for a specific example--the idea of Jedi aging out at 13, when someone posts about that, where does that come from? It's always sourced back to the Jedi Apprentice books, so, okay, that's a Legends thing! Can you think of any time that came up in the movies or in TCW? If not, then it's not Lucas' continuity and it never happened there. In fact, The Clone Wars (Ahsoka's 14 in the movie and said to be on the young side for being a Padawan) + Disney (the Dooku: Jedi Lost audiodrama has a 16 year old Initiate who will have to wait another year before trying to be a Padawan again) both show that's not part of those continuities. That's pretty much it, I just constantly go after the source, figure out where something is from, and if I can't find a source, it's probably Legends or fanon. (Which is no shade! People should do what they want! But I do like knowing what's fanon and what's not.) For the Jedi stuff, I can definitely help you out--I have a Jedi reference project, which is a collection of citations from Lucas continuity + Disney continuity (if it's quoted from Lucas, the movies, or TCW s1-s6, then it's Lucas continuity, everything else is Disney on that list) and Part II has an intro section that lists the different continuities as I see them. But I would say the primary differences between Lucas/Disney and Legends Jedi are: (None of these are value judgements! I have read so many good fics that mix and match all of these things and I hope people continue to do what makes them happy, re: what goes in which continuity!) - Aging out does not seem to exist, the AgriCorps do not exist in the same fashion if they exist in Disney canon. - While Bant and Siri have been recanonized, Garen and Reeft do not exist in Disney canon, nor does Feemor or Komari. Rael Averross is Dooku's other Padawan in Disney continuity, he does not exist in Legends. - Male Cereans are not endangered, Ki-Adi-Mundi is not married in Lucas or Disney canon. - The post-ROTJ world is massively, massively different, like Luke married Mara Jade and they had a son, Ben Skywalker, Han and Leia had three children (Jacen & Jaina the twins, Anakin their youngest son), Luke trains more Jedi as adults, while in Lucas' views and in Disney, he trains younger students. - The clones are not Mandalorian, in Lucas canon and Disney canon, they consider Kamino their home and they've never spoken any Mando'a. Honestly, I'm not sure any Mando'a has ever been spoken in any of Disney's stuff? (Also, Mando'a was heavily linked with Karen Traviss' writing and, given that she's a Trump supporter and anti-BLM irl, some people really don't want to touch her stuff.) - The Jedi meditation mantra of "there is no emotion, there is peace" is purely a supplementary canon thing, it started in an '80s roleplaying book for the OT, then made its way to PT Legends stuff, and is referenced in Disney's continuity, but it does not exist in Lucas' continuity at all. Also the "emotion yet peace" version is a prequels era thing, a lot of people will say it's an "older version" of the Jedi Code, but the only time we see it is during the Clone Wars (from the Kanan comics' flashbacks). - Grey Jedi do not exist in Lucas Canon or Disney canon. I’m not sure if they’re around in some form in Legends (a lot of wild stuff happened in Legends), but they seem to be actively impossible to have in these canons, given the story group’s commentary about how you cannot use the dark side without consequences. You can’t be a Jedi and use the dark side, pretty much. Oh, no, I'm kind of stuttering to a stop on trying to think of more major differences between the continuities, because honestly I'm better at answering direct questions than trying to come up with something. (And even then, if I can't write a 25k essay, I feel bad, like, "Is this enough?? Or am I FAILING here??" because sometimes Star Wars just Does Not Give Us Answers. orz)

#jedi order #legends vs canon #meta

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mrfandomwars · 2 years

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For those who are still confused on Legends VS Canon...

No, Legends was never canon regarding the movies or even at all outside of the EU, which also wasn't canon.

George Lucas compared Legends/EU and His Canon (Aka Movie+TCW Canon AKA the High/Actual Canon) to two different universes that his (movie and tcw) wasn't affected by the other.

The EU/Legends was a whole different universe that never affected actual canon beyond references here and there

So no, Mara Jade was never Canon, Jango Fett wasn't a Mandalorian until the Mandalorian show after he suffered a retcon and THAT was the retcon not him not being a Mandalorian, etc

Legends Wasn't Canon, It Was A Whole Different Universe Regarding Canon

#gl might have put some references #but it was mostly fan service #legends vs canon #star wars #sw #star wars legends #star wars canon

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cienie-isengardu · 1 year

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Cienie's Star Wars sidenotes

While doing research and writing down the last pieces of Funeral Rites of the Clone Troopers, it became even more clear how The Clone Wars animated TV series did a great disservice to Jedi, especially in the context of medical care for clones.

TCW has clone medics, both as part of combat units (e.g. Kix from 501st Legion) and working apparently in the medcentre as sometimes was presented on the screen.

The role of doctors treating wounded troopers was given to Kaminoans (Nala Se) and droids and sure, those two groups were part of the whole GAR’s medical system in the Legends too. However Jedi Healers (doctors), as far as I remember, were seen treating mainly other Jedi like Yoda

and even then TCW barely paid attention to force healing as an important skill.

The research about medical care for clones gives a pretty drastic idea of what was happening during and after battle which is understandable why the show destined for younger viewers didn’t go into full details about triage of wounded but considering how many dark themes were put in the same show, I dare to say not showing medical care provided by Jedi or common Republic doctors and nurses (who btw are a rare example of republic citizens conscripted into army during the war) actually is unfair. The show reduced one very important aspect of Jedi - they weren’t just generals and commanders either sending or leading troops into battle, they also provided medical help, whether they were specifically trained at healing or not.

In Legends, we could see Jedi Healers assisting the army on various occassions, working in triage area like in Republic comics series:

The triage unit, where Jedi healers labor to save the lives of the wounded, was set up safely behind the line of battle. But as the fortunes of war shift, so do the battlelines.

and worrying first about wounded even in the face of serious danger

Master Saa! We’re cut off! There’s no way to get the wounded out!

and searching for survivors

Master Saa is hurt! She pulled the trees on top of us for protection...

and working in hospitals

Follow me Skywalker. We have much healing to do. The Jedi sickbay, where we treat the most severe injuries. And our own, of course. Master Offee has saved countless lives. She seldom leaves her post to rest. But we all work long hours.

Not to mention the whole Medstar duology dedicated to padawan Bariss Offee, doctors and nurses serving in Republic mobile hospitals close to frontine - and yes, forever I’m gonna be bitter about how TCW/New Canon treated the most iconic Jedi Healer.

(The cover art for Medstar: Jedi Healer by Dave Seeley)

When padawan Skywalker arrived at New Holstice with his troops, he was immedialy called to assist in the nearest sickbay

“Are you injured, master Jedi?”

“Not really, no.”

“Good. You can make yourself useful by heading to the nearest sickbay. We need all the Jedi healers we can get...”

and for context, this is Anakin two days after after Jabiim, one of the worst war campaigns Republic experienced so far, the solely survivor of Jedi Pack traumatized both by the loss of his comrades and what happened on the planet and forced to make a devastating choice is literally told to get at work ASAP because every Jedi in between assignment was working here hard to heal the most wounded..

Though no healer himself, Anakin even force-healed injured trooper on battlefield to stop him going into shock:

Supporting the commando trooper with his left arm, Anakin warded off blaster bolts on the run. The rest of Squad Seven supplied cover, blowing STAPs out the sky with uninterrupted fire. Cody motioned everyone into a shallow irrigation trench just short of the mound. By the time Obi-Wan arrived, the troopers were deployed in a circle, and continuing to pour fire into the sky. Anakin slid into the trench a moment later, lowering the commando gently to the muddy slope. Squad Seven’s medical specialist crawled over, removing the commando’s ravaged utility belt and deeply dented helmet. [...]

The harvester’s pincers had crushed the armor into the commando’s abdomen. His skin was intact, but the bruising was severe. With only half the original army of 1.2 million in fighting shape, the life of every clone was vital. Blood and replacement organs - - what the regular troopers referred to as “spare parts” - - were readily available - - “easily requisitioned” - - but with the war reaching a crescendo, battlefield casualties were on the rise and treated as high priority.

“Not much I can do for him here,” the medspec told Anakin. “Maybe if we can get an FX-Seven air-dropped - - ”

“We don’t need a droid,” Anakin interrupted. Kneeling, he placed his hands on the injured commando’s abdomen and used a Jedi healing technique to keep the clone from going into deep shock. [Labyrinth Of Evil]

(and included request for evacuation of the wounded trooper when Cody called for artillery support)

In Republic comics series alone we could see Jedi showing concern for the wounded troopers at various moments, putting their well-being as priority:

or helping (healing) wounded enemies:

And I won't lie, it is frustrating how Legends, especially Republic comics series that had around 40 issues put so much pressure on Jedi Force healing and how Jedi care for wounded troopers while The Clone Wars (New Canon) that lasted for decade or so kinda ignored the issue? Which is unfair to Jedi and clones alike. The first are presented as less caring, at times indifferent? the latter deserved to have all the available medical help, not just Kaminoans and droids.

#star wars #jedi #jedi healers #clone troopers #legends vs new canon #anakin skywalker #luminara unduli #bariss offee #aayla secura #mace windu #i wil be bitter forever for how tcw treated bariss offee #i demand new canon to bring back the jedi force healing their troopers and wounded in general

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operationbeifong · 15 days

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— 𝐒𝐔𝐘𝐈𝐍 + 𝐓𝐎𝐊𝐊𝐀 — '𝑪𝑨𝑼𝑺𝑬 𝑰𝑵 𝑴𝒀 𝑯𝑬𝑨𝑹𝑻 𝑺𝑯𝑬'𝑺 𝑻𝑯𝑬𝑰𝑹𝑺.

#atla #lok #i'm not crying you are #suyin beifong #toph beifong #tokka #like father like daughter #sokka #beifong family #avatar fandom #canon vs fanon #legend of korra #avatar the last airbender #operationbeifong:edits #lokedit

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smhalltheurlsaretaken · 1 year

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The fandom used to be so fcking weird about how it went about interpreting canon. There's still some dumb stuff around but looking back on 2000-2010 era SW fanfiction people had the weirdest Legends-inspired fanon ever and genuinely held it as authoritative reading of the text even as the movies explicitly and completely contradicted it?

I'm specifically thinking about "Sai Tok" and how *gasp* the Council was apparently suuuuuper duper creeped out that Obi-Wan used a *gasp* forbidden Sith lightsaber technique on Darth Maul and they thought it was a sign he had fallen a little bit or whatever (genuinely have seen idiot SW youtube bros use the 'sai tok' argument to say that the Jedi code is hypocritical and they all use the Dark Side anyway when they need to yadda yadda).

But remember how the Council immediately knighted Obi-Wan in TPM?? They didn't HAVE to do that. People using the previous argument would go on about Old Republic "traditions" and how killing a Sith automatically makes you a knight and it's in the Code, but that's just another headcanon used to cover up that the first one doesn't make sense. Nothing in TPM says the Council knighted Obi-Wan out of a tradition they were obligated to follow - if it was the case, they probably wouldn't have given him Anakin. As it is, what the movie seems to be saying is that they knighted him because they thought he deserved it. (Especially since he didn't just hold his own, he also managed to calm himself down and center himself and that's how he got Maul.)

The part in the TPM novelization (iirc) about Sai Tok being 'frowned upon' (not forbidden) isn't in the movies and even if it was it's not very conclusive. Bisecting your opponent would logically be discouraged in lightsaber fights because it's been a thousand years since the Jedi have fought Sith, so anytime they pull out their lightsabers it's to fight people who very likely aren't as powerful as they are and the Jedi only go for the kill as a last resort. They just don't like killing people if they can help it, that's why you'd scold a kid at lightsaber practice who always goes for the throat or midsection. Not because oNLy SitH pEoPle dO thAt. And Obi-Wan's situation? was a last resort, so there is zero reason it'd be frowned upon in the Code or whatever.

And again, that's not what happens! They're so impressed they trust him with Anakin when they could have just knighted him. Frankly I think they wouldn't have had much reason to care if he'd bitten Maul's head off at that point. They also put Obi-Wan on the Council right as the war started (so either they made him a Master specifically to get him on the Council, or they put him on the Council the second they made him a Master for other reasons: bc he fought Dooku, bc he led the investigation, bc Anakin got knighted, whatv. the point is: they ABSOLUTELY trust him.) That he used a 'bad' technique is never, ever, EVER hinted at in all three prequels movie, it's never brought up, used to discredit him, talk him down, used by the Sith as proof that he is just like them... nobody EVER makes a big deal out of it because it's not!! To everybody, the big deal is that Obi-Wan SURVIVED! And managed to beat a Sith!! He could have tripped Maul into the pit, shoved Maul's own lightsaber into his skull, or stabbed him with an actual knife and that still wouldn't change their takeaway!!

#fanon vs canon #darth maul #obi-wan kenobi #canon vs legends #sai tok #the phantom menace #my meta #more like me ranting #jedi order #jedi council #tpm

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luna-lovegreat · 7 months

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Some Zelda fans:

We want Ganondorf to have a sympathetic arc portraying him as more than just a villain!

Nintendo, sipping tea:

Sorry, friendly Ganondorf is not Canondorf

#he’s an incarnation of hatred guys #I really just wanted to make a pun havin his name start with canon vs ganon #anywho #have a meme #loz #zelda #Ganondorf #link #legend of zelda #gerudo #ganon

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puppetsoftomorrow · 3 months

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at the start of arrow sara haunted the narrative, the from s2 its like. the opposite. the narrative is actively trying to kill her and she just won't let it stick!!

#phoebe returns #maybe thats what legends is all about #the legends vs the narrative #thats why i'm so interested in post canon avalance #what do you do when the danger ends?#what do you do when the speeding train stops?#what do you do when the narrative releases you?

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artbybai · 3 months

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Poor Shallot

#canon vs fanon #dragon ball #fan art #dragon ball legends #shallot #sketch #doodles #poor shallot #bro needs a nap #give him a break #and chicken soup

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rottencandyapp1es · 10 months

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I wanted to give the canon vs. artstyle challenge a try!!

#art challenge #art meme #canon vs my style #canon vs headcanon #legend of zelda #zelda #loz #tloz #majoras mask #mm #loz mm #fierce deity #legend of zelda fanart #zelda fanart #loz fanart #fierce deity my beloved

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gffa · 10 months

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Is melida/daan canon? sometimes people argue about how the jedi should not have gone to war, and then I remember that whole story and the debate about whether qui-gon shouldve stayed and fought- and it's really quite fascinating.

Hi! So, it depends on what you mean by "canon", as Star Wars has several different continuities and what is "canon" in one will not be "canon" in another, despite that they're both officially put out by Star Wars. 1. George Lucas continuity: The first six movies and seasons 1-6 of The Clone Wars. Nothing else is canon to Lucas' Star Wars, he has explicitly said dozens of times that the books, comics, games, etc. are their own world, but they're not canon to his Star Wars. 2. Legends continuity: Any books, novels, games that you can reasonably expect to be taken seriously (ie, not LEGO Star Wars or a mini-Flash game or what have you) that's pre-April 25, 2014 is in this continuity, unless something post-this date has a disclaimer in the back that says it was based on Legends continuity but wasn't ready for publication until later, but still counts as the Legends continuity. This is where the Melida/Daan events fall. 3. Disney continuity: Once Disney bought Star Wars and started putting out their own shows (Rebels, season 7 of The Clone Wars, The Mandalorian, The Book of Boba Fett, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Andor, etc.) and movies (Rogue One, the sequel trilogy, Solo, etc.) and games and books and comics, they created a new continuity. This one is a bit tricky since they say it's all on a level playing field, but the truth is that the TV shows are higher "canon" than the books and games and such. (As a note: Fantasy Flight Games' reference books are generally not a source of canon material, they try to be canon-compliant, but the story group has said they're probably not to be trusted re: being hard canon.) So, to answer your question: It depends on the discussion you're having and what the agreed-upon continuity is. For me, while I dabble in all of the continuities, if I'm talking about the movies+TCW, then Melida/Daan is probably not canon. But if we're talking about the Lucasfilm era novels, then they are canon to that continuity and a lot of people occupy that space, that's the playground they're in, so those events are canon to them. And, honestly, it's hard for me to take those books 100% seriously, they were written when only one of the prequels movies was out, AOTC didn't even exist then, much less the expanding of the world that TCW did, as well as they were written to a very specific audience of young teens, who would want to read about other young teens being heroes, which means the adults basically had to get hit with the idiot stick and so I'm more interested in meeting them where they're at and what their aim was, in my view. They're great fun and people should go nuts with them if that's their jam, live your best fannish life! God knows, that's what I do on stuff I love! But they also occupy a very nebulous space on being "canon", because so much depends on what framework we're talking about!

#lumi.txt #legends vs canon

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jewishcissiekj · 6 months

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Do you guys ever think about how they never stood a chance:) How their stories were doomed from the start:) How their lives were orchestrated and put together by a person who manipulated them all the time:) How their fall was inevitable and planned:) How Asajj was probably some sort of a test on Dooku's and Sidious's parts to see a Jedi fall to the Dark Side:) How they foil each other so well because Asajj had nothing when she fell and Anakin almost had everything:) I do like all the time it's pretty miserable

#daily asajj thought of the day #not a ship!!#i could be the ceo of asajj and anakin parallels if i tried #listen the way they foil each other so well #and the way asajj's character in cw 2003 was created to oppose anakin directly #is so engraved in my mind i get surprised whenever i remember how they stuck her with obi-wan and quinlan in tcw and canon #it doesn't work!!!#yes i know she's obsessed with obi-wan but to me it twistly mirrors anakin's relationship with him #like the care and the attachment for him as a father figure vs. the absolute determination to kill him #it makes sense to me #(twistly is not word tho)#asajj ventress #ventress #anakin skywalker #sw #star wars #darth vader #star wars legends #star wars comics #star wars republic #the pics are just interesting visual parallels i found #anyway #au where they're besties #clone wars 2003 #sw clone wars #attack of the clones #episode ii #episode iii #revenge of the sith #star wars obsession

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sallyastral · 11 months

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TLoZ fandom and ableism - Link's mutism

I recently had a discussion with a user here on Tumblr about the subject of the title, and I felt like doing a dedicated post about it.

To clarify: I will NOT provide the user's profile link, because I don't want to create unnecessary drama or discussions for no reason. If this post were to reach the person concerned, know that it is absolutely not against you, but it is a generalized speech.

I've often seen a lot of headcanons regarding Link's mutism, for example, that he may have autism, selective mutism, complete mutism, and many others. I find it really amazing that everyone can make their own headcanons, and I love sharing mine or reading and commenting on other people's.

What I don't tolerate is saying that certain headcanons are wrong from the start. Unless they completely destroy the character's morality, personality, and defining characteristics, no headcanon should be considered wrong because it isn't. What also bothers me is to take one's headcanon for canonical facts and accuse others of "canceling disability" just because they think differently.

For example, I headcanon Link to have aphasia, but that doesn't mean I am canceling a disability and replacing it with another because Link was NEVER confirmed to be either autistic, selectively mute, or completely mute. I am not erasing anything just because I don't headcanon him as autistic or selectively mute. I just have a different opinion from yours, I am not being ableist.

Saying "headcanoning Link as completely mute is wrong, stop trying so hard" IS ableist, exactly how saying "headcanoning him as completely mute is just an easier and less deep way to justify his mutism, it means not taking autism seriously" is too.

There's not even any need to justify your headcanons and support them with misinformation. But if you really want to do that, at least PLEASE do your research right.

Let's take a closer look at what mutism is:

"Muteness or mutism (from Latin mutus 'silent') is defined as an absence of speech while conserving or maintaining the ability to hear the speech of others. Mutism is typically understood as a person's inability to speak, and is commonly observed by family members, caregivers, teachers, doctors, or speech and language pathologists. It may not be a permanent condition, as muteness can be caused or manifest due to several different phenomena, such as physiological injury, illness, medical side effects, psychological trauma, developmental disorders, or neurological disorders." [Wikipedia]

There are 4 main causes for mutism:

Physiological causes of mutism may stem from several different sources, for example, problems with the physiology involved in speech like the mouth or tongue, or apraxia, involving problems with the coordination of muscles and body parts involved in the action of talking. Other causes may be the complete loss of the voice because of illnesses, deformations of the larynx, injuries, or paralysis. The latter does NOT seem to be Link's case, as he can still emit other sounds that aren't words, meaning that his larynx and verbal organs are just fine.

Neurological causes such as strokes, brain damage, degenerative illnesses, brain tumors, or severe injury could cause aphasia, which I headcanon Link to have: - In aphasia, a person is unable to comprehend or unable to formulate language because of damage to specific brain regions. The difficulties of people with aphasia can range from occasional trouble finding words to losing the ability to speak, read, or write; intelligence, however, is unaffected. In my case, it's related to a severe injury Link got during a fight, so it was something sudden. resulting in Broca's aphasia, where individuals understand language and know what they want to say, but are unable to produce isolated words and sentences or write correctly. This form of aphasia most frequently associates with damage in the frontal area of the left hemisphere. In this case, the patient is able to say small phrases and can STILL use his voice like in every other case. It doesn't contradict Link's canon behavior, as it is shown through dialogue boxes that he can say small phrases, and doesn't erase anything else.

When children do not speak, psychological problems or emotional stress, such as anxiety, may be involved. Children may not speak due to selective mutism. Selective mutism is a condition in which the child speaks only in certain situations or with certain people. Selective mutism should not be confused with a child who does not speak and cannot speak due to physical disabilities. Selective mutism may occur in conjunction with an autism spectrum disorder or other diagnoses. Differential diagnosis between selective mutism and language delay associated with autism or other disorders is needed to determine the appropriate treatment. All of these could be extremely valid headcanons.

Absence of speech in children may involve communication disorders or language delays. Communication disorders or developmental language delays may occur for several different reasons. Language delays may be associated with other developmental delays. For example, children with Down syndrome often have impaired language and speech. Children with autism, categorized as a neurodevelopmental disorder in the DSM-V, often demonstrate language delays.

So no, not all mute people can't emit other sounds, and not all mute people are completely unable to speak even small phrases or words.

The point is: NOTHING entitles you to invalidate people's headcanons and spread misinformation just because they're different from yours, and NOTHING gives you the right to call other ableists for the same reason.

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short-wooloo · 1 year

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Since mando s3 comes out tomorrow, it's probably a good time to remind y'all that none of the legends stuff is canon to it.

Now you'd think the fact that these works don't apply to a TV show made years after they were officially declared non canon (not that they canon to the movies/tcw anyways) would be simple to grasp, but no, I still see constant mention of Jaster the mandalore, the true mandalorians, the war between the true/new/death watch mandos, etc etc in context of the Mandalorian

Speaking of which

Factions:

There are only two major mandalorian factions in canon, the death watch and New Mandalorians, the true mandalorians are not a faction, because they're legends, they do not exist in Lucas SW, their source means they do not apply to didney SW/didney eu, and they are not mentioned in canon/canon eu, ergo they do not exist

And the NM/DW were not rival factions (and honestly calling them "factions" is a bit of a misnomer, they'd be better described as coalitions since they themselves are compromised of a number of groups/factions) in the Civil War, the New Mandalorians existed during the war, but they weren't so much a faction fighting in the war as they were a political reform movement born in respone TO it, the war was largely fought between different clans/alliances of clans for control/power, the New Mandalorians' rise to power came not from conquest, but from a movement of Mandalorian people and groups (including warrior clans) sick of the self destructive, authoritarian, violent old ways, and wanting change, would rally around Satine Kryze

The death watch is a reactionary regressive movement of mando conservatives angry that they lost the war and appalled that they can't be violent murderers anymore who determine who's in charge by fighting to the death, and they insist that this adherence to the "old ways" makes them "real mandalorians"

And that brings me to something else

What makes someone a "true mandalorian" in canon?

As I said, the "true mandalorian" faction does not exist in canon, but you will still here different mandos throw around the phrase(s) "true/real mandalorian", this is a case of the "no true scotsman" fallacy, every mandalorian considers themselves/their group as being the "right" way to be a mandalorian and anyone who doesn't follow that way is wrong and ergo is not a mandalorian, and the only ones who don't buy into this nonsense are the New Mandalorians because they're the only adults in the room and realize it's all really stupid

And lastly we have Jaster, much like with the broader history of mandalorians, I see people attributing Jaster's legends biography to his canon incarnation, when-as we have already established-legends would have no bearing on canon, because they are two different universes (and also Jaster's only "appearance" is in a canon show, made years after the legends stuff was pushed aside)

The canon facts of Jaster are:

He exists

He's Jango's adopted father

That's it, he doesn't even appear in person or is mentioned by name, his "appearance" and existence in canon is down to a quick Easter egg in another language

Now elements of his legends story could become canon, but I want to stress, THAT WOULD NOT MAKE THE LEGENDS SOURCES CANON, because that's another thing I notice, "new SW content makes a nod to or recanonizes something from legends? Fans start thinking that makes a legends thing canon", and that's not how it works, things from legends can be brought over, but they are being/will be retold in a new way for canon, the version made for canon is the canon version

#wooloo-writes #wooloo writes #star wars #sw #legends is not canon #anti death watch #death watch #pro new mandalorians #new mandalorians #satine kryze #jaster mereel #canon vs legends #sw canon #real sw canon is films and shows

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broitsf-ckingfreezing · 8 months

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Fandom vs. Dooku: Religious Affiliation

Okay, my first rant has been making the rounds, so I wanted to come back and do a more in-depth approach (WITH EVIDENCE). Last time I was rapidly keyboard mashing on my phone whilst simultaneously howling my grievances to the moon, so hopefully everything should be a smidge more... coherent in this one.

This is taking HOURS to type up, so everything will be split into different posts. Possibly, idk. Look I have opinions and ADHD. Gotta peel those layers back like a particularly rancid onion.

(thanks @eloquentmoon for the dividers!)

Something that Star Wars as a fandom often fails to realise is that Jedi Master Dooku (or Yan Dooku, I suppose, if that's your headcanon) and Sith Apprentice Darth Tyranus are not the same. Well, they are literally the same person, but that's not what I'm getting at. The point I am trying to make here is that a character can in fact be an inherently good guy and also a genocidal psychopath. In Star Wars, one is not born a Sith. You cannot just... be a Sith and nothing else. Much is the same with a Jedi. One is either born with the ability to reach/manipulate the Force or they aren't (Force-nulls, for sake of clarity), they are not born Jedi or Sith. Jedi and Sith are religious orders. Like Protestants and Catholics, Jedi and Sith follow the same faith but with different philosophies and restrictions (or complete lack thereof regarding the Sith; anything is game if it eventually means absolute power).

Let's take a look at the best established religious order of Star Wars in canon and Legends. Mandalorians.

(A GIF of the Armourer in The Mandalorian. The subtitles read: "According to Creed, one may only be redeemed in the living waters beneath the mines of Mandalore.")

In Legends, to be Mandalorian is to dedicate yourself to the Resol'nare or the Six Actions:

Wearing the armour

Speaking the language

Defense of oneself and one's family

Raising children as Mandalorian (this is the Way)

Contributing to the clan's welfare

Answering the call of the Mand'alor or Sole Ruler

Canonically, to go against the word of the Creed, such as removing your helmet to outsiders or non-clan, was to declare yourself dar'manda or No Longer Mandalorian (not stated explicitly in canon, but widely accepted in fanon/features in SW: The Old Republic). In Christian equivalent, this would be committing sin. As shown in the GIF above, one could be redeemed for "sinning" in Mandalore's living waters. Kind of like confession and repentance in Christianity.

And like the many differing dedications to the concept of God, like Jedi and Sith as you will soon see, Mandalorians have their thoughts on the Force. The only difference here is that where God is not provable beyond doubt, the Force is. Its existence cannot be denied. However, how the Force is/should be interpreted varies from person to person, from religion to religion.

The Jedi Code

Jedi and Sith also follow Creeds.

(An image of the Jedi mantra in Basic and Aurebesh. It reads: "There is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, there is knowledge. There is no passion, there is serenity. There is no chaos, there is harmony. There is no death, there is the force.")

The Jedi Code places great emphasis on compassion and bettering one's self; particularly, maintaining control over your emotions and learning to let go. Here especially is where fans like to pick and choose their understanding of canon like rooting through a jar of lollipops at the doctor's to get the orange one. So, I'm gonna highlight my point here with some big ass text:

Jedi do not condemn emotion

(be warned: LOTS of italics incoming)

(An edit of a still of Anakin Skywalker from Attack of the Clones. The text reads: "Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life.)

Sure, where Anakin is obviously not the prime example of what a Jedi should be, and he is clearly trying to butter up Padme to embrace his frankly awful flirting attempts, we must also remember that he had been living by the Jedi Code for almost (if not exactly) ten years at this point. AND. AND AND AND. We have IMPERICAL EVIDENCE from the Clone Wars that while not often stated outright (if at all; forgive me, I only just reached the Mortis Arc and believe me, I have OPINIONS), Jedi DO love unconditionally.

(A GIF from The Clone Wars of Mace Windu. The subtitle reads: "I'm going to do whatever I can to help these people.")

Often, their first instinct unless guided otherwise by alternate intel or the Force itself, is to have faith in those who would call upon them for help. There's literally an entire movie about Ahsoka and Anakin delivering the child of Jabba the Motherfucking HUTT back to him. They could've killed the child. Held him for ransom until Jabba conceded to a beneficial alliance. Instead, they hold to the hope that Jabba would hold to some kind of honour as a parent and allow an alliance negotiation on good faith. Jabba. A literal owner of SLAVES. Who planned, because of intel from a Sith Lord, to stab the Jedi in the back.

I bring your attention to this iconic line from my last post:

(A GIF of Ki-Adi Mundi from Attack of the Clones. The subtitle reads: "He is a political idealist, not a murderer)

He is talking about Dooku, ex-Jedi, now publicly politically aligned with and the leader of the Separatist movement: AKA the "let's leave the Republic because we believe them and, by extension, the Jedi, to be corrupt" crew. He is a mark of shame upon the order. One of the Lost Twenty--Legends lore, for those who don't understand, is that there have only been twenty Jedi (including Dooku) ever to leave the Order past achieving Master status)--and yet, they still honour him as one of their own, literally saying: "he was once one of us." If that isn't a sign of unconditional compassion, then I'll eat my lightsaber collection.

I now move on to this:

(A GIF from Attack of the Clones of Obi-Wan Kenobi. The subtitle reads: "Don't let your personal feelings get in the way!")

To be in control of yourself and your reactions isn't to abandon emotion entirely. That is literally impossible. In fact, emotions are valuable to Jedi. However, they are taught to be mindful of how emotions can affect their logical reasoning.

When Obi-Wan Kenobi is ordered to hunt down Darth Vader, whom has just sworn himself to the Sith Lord and literally murdered possibly hundreds of Jedi Masters, Knights, Padawans, and Initiates by his own hand, he actually abandons his logical reasoning and refuses to kill the man he raised and fought beside for the last 13 years.

(A GIF from Star Wars III: The Revenge of the Sith of Obi-Wan Kenobi. The subtitles read: "You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you.")

This is a direct parallel to Anakin's refusal to kill recently-revealed Sith Lord Palpatine, Darth Sidious. Both of these instances were done for entirely selfish reasons.

Anakin twists a tenet of the Code upon its head and refuses to kill Sidious because, at the time, he is without a weapon, and Jedi are sworn never to kill an unarmed opponent. Logically, we must reason that these rules do NOT apply to the Sith because A) they had been thought extinct and therefore didn't need exceptions written into the Code, B) it is literally proven within that very same scene that an unarmed Sith Lord is still extremely dangerous, and C) Jedi are sworn to uphold the balance of the Force within themselves and the galaxy, therefore the Sith must be destroyed. In this moment, Anakin has allowed his fear of his wife and unborn children dying to cloud his judgement, allowed the Lord to live, and subsequently doomed the galaxy.

Obi-Wan, canonically a far better Jedi than Anakin, allows his love for the man he raised to stop him from killing him. Even out of mercy as Anakin burns in the heat of Mustafar. Yes, he walks away, believing Anakin will certainly die, but again: an unarmed Sith (literally because ya boy has NO ARMS, lmao) is still extremely dangerous. Just as Maul survived from literally being sliced in half, so did Anakin survive Mustafar. Allowing love, grief, desperation to cloud his judgement, Obi-Wan has (although unknowingly until the Obi-Wan Kenobi series set ten years later) assisted in dooming the galaxy.

It is not Obi-Wan's love for his former-padawan that has done this. It is his refusal to let him go, his fear of being the one who has to kill Anakin, despite being the only one capable of doing so because of Anakin's incredible skill and power.

Despite these contradictions: Obi-Wan Kenobi is still a good guy, and Anakin Skywalker is a bad guy.

Obi-Wan would go on to repent for the rest of his life, cutting himself off from the Force to hide his presence and watch over Luke Skywalker on Tatooine, even though the Lars family do not welcome him at all. And he will go to great lengths, putting himself in constant danger, to save Leia Organa. When this is all over, he will face his student one last time and sacrifice himself to ensure the safety of the children, to give the darkened galaxy just one more chance at hope.

(And, as an aside, Obi-Wan's final sacrifice is also to teach Luke about the Jedi tenet of letting go and dedicating yourself to something greater than your own wants and physical being, just as Qui-Gon did for Obi-Wan decades before.)

Anakin, in the meantime, Darth Vader by this point, is literally running around blowing up planets. Let me repeat that: BLOWING UP PLANETS. With billions if not trillions of lifeforms on them. And also murdering Jedi Purge survivors. And, you know, killing basically anyone that doesn't agree with the rule of the Empire. Also, enslaving a lot of people. Like, a lot of people. Including the clones he once thought brothers until he... idk, kills them all? They all die of rapid old age? I'm not exactly sure what happens to them.

Obi-Wan loved unconditionally. He was compassionate. As was in accordance with his Creed.

Anakin Skywalker was possessive. He loved only that which he wanted and that which loved him in return, but only if it was love to his standards. Obi-Wan, who surely loved him as a brother and a son, tried to stop him from taking the galaxy, therefore he had to destroy his former Master.

This is what attachment is.

Unwillingness to let go of something you can no longer have.

Do you pro-genocide fans think Obi-Wan wanted Qui-Gon Jinn to die? He literally cradles him in his arms and cries, for goodness' sake. And do you know what Qui-Gon does in his last moments? He does not fear for himself. He does not tell Obi-Wan everything will be okay. Because he knows it will. He knows Obi-Wan will be okay. Because his padawan will mourn, but he will also accept that it was Qui-Gon's time to pass into the Force. And he knows that Obi-Wan knows that he will always be with him in the Force. There is no death. There is the Force.

What he does instead is so loving and compassionate and so caring. All he wants in his final moments is to make sure that Anakin, the boy in his care, will be safe.

(A GIF from Star Wars I: The Phantom Menace of Qui-Gon Jinn comforting Obi-Wan Kenobi as he dies. He reaches up and brushes Obi-Wan's face with his fingertips)

Those who can see that GIF, look at it and tell me that it is not a highly emotional, beautifully intimate moment between a dying father and his son. Look me in the eyes and tell me that and I will call you a liar because your pants are on fire, mother fucker.

The Sith Code

We have a better understanding of the Jedi Code than we do the Sith, largely because Sith are chaotic pathological liars who constantly break their own rules.

(A GIF from Star Wars I: The Phantom Menace of Yoda and Mace Windu. The subtitles read: "Always two there are. No more, no less. A master and an apprentice.")

Only two, huh? Then tell me, Tyranus and Sidious:

WHO THE HELL IS THIS?!

(An image of Asajj Ventress from Star Wars: The Clone Wars wielding two red lightsabers)

Like Satanism to Christianity, the Sith Code stands as a direct and deliberate contradiction to the Jedi Code.

(An image of the Sith Code in Basic and Aurebesh. It reads: "Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power. Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The force shall free me.")

Let's take a quick look at the two Creeds side by side:

(An image of the Sith Code (left) and the Jedi Code (right). The one on the left reads: "Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power. Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The force shall free me." The one on the right reads: "There is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, there is knowledge. There is no passion, there is serenity. There is no chaos, there is harmony. There is no death, there is the force.")

Pretty big differences there.

One of these Creeds is dedicated to learning, maintaining balance in the Force, and achieving personal betterment through peace of mind. The other is dedicated to becoming strong, powerful, and unbeatable by comparing putting the needs of the many before the wants of yourself to slavery.

I'll let you take a guess which one is which.

I mean, it is almost explicitly said that an important initiation process for becoming a Sith is to fucking murder a Jedi. In Tales of the Jedi, which is considered canon in the current state of the series (meaning should someone with authoritative control over Star Wars later retcon this, then it will no longer be canon), Dooku kills Master Yaddle as his official initiation after the death and funeral of Qui-Gon--don't forget, before this point Dooku may have been Fallen, but he was not Sith until Sidious loses Maul as an apprentice. Say what you will about Palps, but you gotta give him credit for abiding by the Sith Rule of Two, otherwise the galaxy would've been a lot more utterly fucked than it was. Until this was canon, anyone who was not versed in Legends lore (AKA me) generally headcanoned that Dooku murdered and assumed the identity of Sifo-Dyas for his Sith initiation.

Also, I feel it is imperative to note that the Sith Code was literally inspired by Mein Kampf. You know, ADOLF HITLER'S MANIFESTO. Need proof? Here, straight from the Star Wars Wookiepedia:

What's The Point?

I've been writing for almost 3 hours and I'm only JUST getting to the bit that's actually about Dooku. Let's take a breather and re-establish some points:

Jedi and Sith are religious Creeds

You are not born Jedi or Sith

To be Jedi or Sith is to make CHOICES that align with the tenets of the Creed

To be Jedi is to be compassionate, mindful, and a protector of those who are defenseless

Jedi have rules and regulations to protect their Order from corruption and abuse of power

To be Sith is to put your wants first, to become all-powerful, and to be victorious over all others

Sith do NOT have rules and regulations (that they actually follow faithfully aside from the Rule of Two, which is broken by Dooku multiple times anyway)

Got it?

Cool let's move on.

This is what I mean by the separation of Jedi Master Dooku and Darth Tyranus. On the matter of Dooku, the fandom largely seems to be divided between:

He was manipulated by the Sith! He was actually a good guy who knew the Senate was corrupt! He was just trying to save the galaxy!

And:

He was a shit Jedi and everyone should've known he was Darkside. He abused Qui-Gon. He abused padawans. He hated children. He didn't Fall because he was always evil.

My guys.

My dudes.

My homies.

Just... WHAT?

For point A, I present to you:

(A GIF from The Clone Wars of Dooku. The subtitle reads: "I would kill you both if I didn't have to drag your bodies.)

He literally just threatened murder. Actual murder. In another scene, season 1, if someone could find the GIF that would be fantastic, Dooku says he wants the death of the Jedi. All of the Jedi. He wants to slaughter children, the people he once considered family. In season 4, to Savage Oppress, he offers the galaxy. "We will rule the galaxy together." That is a dictatorship. These are not the signs of a healthy man doing what is best for the people. This is selfish desire. This is Sith Creed.

For point B:

(A GIF from TOTJ. Dooku stands before Qui-Gon's favourite tree on Coruscant). Look, I'm not great at image and GIF descriptors. If someone would like to fix this for me, please do. I worked real hard on this analysis and I want it to be accessible.

A man who did not love his padawan, his pseudo-son, would not have visited their favourite place on the entirety of Coruscant upon their death. This was inconvenient. Him visiting this tree when he shouldn't have because he'd just infiltrated the archives and deleted evidence of Kamino brings suspicion upon him that he could've avoided by simply staying away. But he couldn't. He had to go one last time.

He also, in Attack of the Clones, expresses regret at never meeting Obi-Wan before then. Qui-Gon always spoke very highly of him. Yes, because an abused child whose evil, evil master, again, abused him, would ever speak of his own child to said-abuser. Dooku may be a Sith of a decade by that point, but don't forget that Sith are entrenched in negative emotion. We have no idea what he was feeling meeting the son of his son for the first time. He could have easily murdered Obi-Wan before Anakin and all of the Jedi arrive. He later tries to multiple times. The first thing he does is offer an alliance. An apprenticeship. He even tells Obi-Wan the truth of Palpatine in the Senate, not that he (Obi) has any reason to believe him (Dooku).

Again, what's my point?

My point is that he is both a good guy and a bad guy.

He can be both.

He was once good. He Fell. He was not always one or the other. Because that is how Star Wars WORKS. His doubts over the Senate, his fears that the Order is falling to darkness, his utter grief at the death of his child; it crippled him. He could not overcome the Darkside. And so he Fell. Perhaps originally he had good intentions.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions after all.

Eventually, the anger, the grief, the fear, corrupted him. As is how the Darkside works. Yes, it is a choice. It is a Creed he chooses to follow. But to walk back from the Darkside is also a journey that requires incredible strength.

In canon, only one achieves it. Anakin Skywalker.

Early on, perhaps Dooku could have been saved. But by the time of Attack of the Clones, he is utterly corrupt and evil and literally planning an absolute takeover of the galaxy. He is far beyond redemption.

Look, thanks for coming to my TED talk. If you enjoyed this post and would like to see more, please consider tipping! I am an unemployed chronically anxious and depressed sewer rat. I also accept love in reblogs and comments XD

I feel like @jedi-enthusiast and @antianakin will like this.

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