#i feel like i should say that I don't know if this is queerbaiting

[eddiezpaghetti]

Okay, so my experience with Stranger Things is a weird one.

I didn't care when it first came out, started to watch it out of "might as well" in 2020, wasn't interested in it enough to make it past S2, forgot about it outside of going "oh, hey, cool, there's a lesbian in it now, I guess," in S3, got really annoyed when "Running Up That Hill" got popular from it because it was a song I listened to on fucking loop after one of my best friends died in high school and I fully expected its appearance in the show to ignore the whole survivor's guilt theme of the song (and was very happy to learn later that it did the exact opposite of ignoring the lyrics), saw people drawing Eddie, suddenly got a lot more interested, watched just the fourth season like a fucking psychopath because I was seriously only there for Eddie, then got interested enough to start the show over properly, having mostly forgotten what I did watch of the show before.

And let me tell you something from the perspective of someone who started with the complete fourth season, who wasn't there from the start, who wasn't tainted by ship goggles or this internal battle of hope and despair, who wasn't theorizing about what the painting could be or expecting Mike and Will to kiss when Volume 2 happened or rooting for Mike and Eleven's relationship to go down in flames or whatever the fuck. Just someone who went blind into Season 4.

It's really fucking obvious that Will and Mike are gonna be endgame.

Like holy fuck. It's so fucking blatant I don't even know why people are nervous.

No sane fucking person would shoot this scene this way if they wanted the audience to care about El and Mike as a couple. Despite being all blurry in the background, Will's reaction to what's happening here is smackdab in the fucking middle, clearly showing that the important part is what's going through his head here. What he's feeling. It's like the opposite of that scene from Kingdom Hearts II where Sora and Riku reunite and Kairi just fucking vanishes into the aether while it's happening because, despite the fact that she was standing between them when the scene began, she doesn't matter to the scene, so she's just kind of gone when the camera angle changes. Will could have been behind one of their heads, or so far in the distance he blends in with the background, but he's not. He's so obvious that despite being massively blurred out, he's still the first goddamn thing you look at. What, you think that's an accident? You think he's in the middle of this dramatic fucking scene because of a mistake? He basically has a big flashing neon arrow pointing at him with "THIS IS THE POINT" being screamed through a megaphone.

And then this?

They're paired up like they're taking fucking prom pictures. Each one of these pairs is so fucking close to one another and so fucking far from everyone else. It's not, "Oh, they're standing vaguely near each other in a group shot," it's fucking Noah's Ark out here. Again, there's no way to take this as an accident. It's not just a framing issue. If they wanted to make the shot look balanced while still not hiding anyone else behind El, they would have scattered people around much more naturally. Even if they wanted to keep Nancy with Jonathan and Hopper with Joyce, there's so much room on that hill for three people to stand on El's left and three on her right. But they didn't do that. They put Mike and Will together on purpose in the most obvious way possible.

Like I get that coming up with crackpot theories is fun in and of itself and I'm not blaming anyone for having fun. I totally get the appeal of arguing a point and reaching for every stupid little thing to pull into it because it's like a game, okay? I've done that. But if you're trying to actually convince someone (whether it's someone who wants to believe or someone who's pissed at the very idea that Mike and Will could be in love), stay away from blue and yellow lights, stay away from costume design, stay away from the existence of closets in backgrounds. And don't worry about whether Mike's gay or bi when he's in love with Will either way. I'll give you a little tip about persuasion: You're only as strong as your weakest argument. Even if you've got strong stuff in there, too, the person you're trying to convince is going to dismiss anything you say as complete insanity the second you start going on an entire tangent about the shape of a character's fucking pocket.

Sometimes, clothes are just clothes. Sometimes, there's a closet in the background because it helps establish that a character is in a bedroom. Sometimes, blue and yellow are just a couple of colors that look nice together. And sure, it might be set designers and costume designers and cinematographers smirking and winking at the audience from behind the camera. But if the show was just those things, instead of those things in the context of everything else, they wouldn't be saying anything of note.

But this?

This tells a story all on its own. Someone with no context can look at this and automatically assume that each paired person is standing with someone they care about deeply, seeking comfort as they watch some sort of disaster unfold. And yeah, romantic couples usually come in twos, and we live in an amatonormative society, so that's going to be the first association anyone makes seeing a bunch of people paired off.

It's the same reason you look at this

And go, "Oh..."

"Those two are probably a couple."

And I genuinely don't understand how people could have watched S4 Vol. 2 and gotten scared. Because as someone who went in with no investment whatsoever, I just looked at these two--

--and went, "Oh, those two are a couple. Good for them." And I moved on. Shut up about the trees for five seconds and just see the forest for what it is.

Oh, and if you're still nervous? Little thing from a storyteller here: You don't leave a hanging thread like "Will confessed his romantic feelings for Mike by projecting them onto El, but Mike either didn't understand or at least didn't say he understood," without coming back to that later. That's Chekov's gun hanging on the wall, babes. It's gonna fire at some point. If Mike was going to reject Will's feelings, if they weren't relevant, they would have had that discussion in Argyle's van. There'd be no reason to leave you in suspense.

#byler #meta #stranger things #theory #I mean I fucking guess #in the same way gravity is a fuckin' theory. #It feels silly that I even have to say this honestly. #Watching people freak out over these two feels like I'm being pranked. #Like you guys aren't pulling a Goncharov are you? Just making believe there's any chance these two aren't gonna be endgame? #Like completely ironically? And I'm too autistic to catch it? #It genuinely feels like I'm explaining that red and blue make purple here. As if you guys should have learned this in kindergarten. #Or like watching whole-ass adults watch Cinderella for the first time and being on the edge of their seat #wondering if she's going to live happily ever after with the prince or not. #It feels like I'm talking DOWN to people and I don't WANT it to feel like that but it's so obvious and I don't want people to be like #anxious for no reason you know? #Like I get that we're all scarred from queerbaiting and I know you guys are biased from years of shipping these kids. #But like. These guys? The most obvious 'there's only one way this could go' couple I've ever seen? You're scared about THEM?

[scarrletmoon]

okay i know the Discourse™️ has been going on for way too long at this point, but

i think some people outside of the OFMD fandom don’t actually get why we’re particularly annoying about this show

OFMD is not the first queer show to ever exist. if anything, it's a late entry in decades of queer media. over a year and a half since the first few episodes aired, everyone knows that OFMD is queer. that doesn't make it particularly special

but back in March? this is the trailer that dropped in February of 2022, 2 weeks before the premier. if you're used to seeing queer chemistry in shows that aren't intended to be queer, you might see the hints between Ed and Stede here. but to most people? it's just a silly little pirate comedy. just guys being dudes. the trailer doesn't even hint at the other 2 canonical queer relationships in the show -- the closest it gets suggesting romance is the music and the pink in the poster

so when people watched this show in March 2022, they went into it expecting subtext and nothing else. to them, it was like watching Sherlock or Supernatural or Merlin in the 2010s. if you were in any of those fandoms -- especially Sherlock and Supernatural -- you know what it was like; constant jokes at our expense, being mocked for creating explicit fanwork, made fun of by the creators and within the show itself. if we saw queer subtext, that was our problem. this was a time when you pretended NOT to be in fandom, for fear of ridicule. we kept our fanwork to ourselves, we DID NOT share it with the cast, and we accepted that our favourite ships would probably never be canon. maybe one day, if we were lucky, we'd have a show where the subtext wasn't mockery as much as deliberate foreshadowing -- but that had to be YEARS away

right?

OFMD was never billed as a queer show, not in the beginning. there was no LGBTQ+ tag on (HBO) Max, it wasn't on anyone's list of upcoming queer shows in 2022, it flew under the radar through most of its first season. this was a show about pirates, and sure, some of them were queer. but not the LEADS. if you think they're romantically involved, that's must be fandom brain poisoning

except the 9th episode aired, and they kissed. and the show said "you're not crazy for thinking they have chemistry because they really do. it's been a romance this whole time". and in the 10th episode, Stede realizes that he's in love

(not mandating you watch this clip if you don't care for the show, but there's something that feels particularly earth shattering about no one saying the word gay but knowing that Stede's realizing he is, that it's completely unambiguous and explicit in a way that only straight romances are usually allowed to be)

this is why people freaked out about this show. no one knew. even the creator, David Jenkins, was surprised when WE were surprised that it was gay for real -- he set out to write a love story, using all the tried and true beats of a rom com. he'd never even heard of the term queerbaiting. he looked at historical Blackbeard and Stede Bonnet and thought "oh, there's something here" and just...wrote that, with very little fanfare, like it was inevitable. like it was obvious. of course Jim and Pam end up together. of course Buttercup and Westley end up together. what kind of disappointing ending would it be if You've Got Mail ended with the main characters just going their separate ways?

so of course Ed and Stede are in love

look, i get it. we're annoying and won't shut the fuck up about this show that seems mediocre at best. i watched the whole thing back in march, thought "huh, that was cool" and was sure that i'd forget about it in a few days

an hour after looking at fanart on twitter, i was lost in the fucking sauce

there's just so much to unpack from a mere 10 episodes. it covers racism, toxic masculinity, gender expression, sexuality, trauma and abuse. and i don't think we should overlook the fact that the non-white characters in this show get to be fully human in a way i haven't seen in my favourite shows in recent memory

additionally, most OFMD are 25 or older. we're not people who've been spoiled by queer rep, who don't get how hard it used to be, how you'd have to grovel for scraps, how shipping and fanfiction was a way to find queer rep where we thought there never would be. we've been here. we're annoying about this show because for a lot of us, it's the first time we've been treated like our queerness isn't an anomaly that needs to be relegated to its own section, that needs to be praised for the bare minimum of acknowledging that we exist. it's not pulling punches to avoid scaring away a straight audience. it just is.

OFMD for me is like when i watched Black Panther for the first time and realized that this is what white people felt all the time. have there been other black superhero movies? of course! does Disney fucking suck? BOY does it. but that was the first time i got to sit in a movie theater and watch a mainstream film that looked at Africa and said "look at how beautiful you are, exactly as you are"

and idk. i think that's really cool

#scarrlet rambles #ofmd #cant wait for all 5 notes on this post #and dont be fucking mean i'm not trying to start shit #anon is off btw if you want to try that #we're going to have a productive conversation or none at all we're adults here #for some reason tumblr didn't save my links and stuff THANKS TUMBLR #anyway the typo version is floating around now i guess 🥲

[styrofauxm]

So you know that thing that's floating around about Vivziepop not wanting to ruin people's fun by confirming Alastor's romantic orientation?

I was going to make a venty (untagged) post about how that's kinda queerbait-y* and arophobic. But then I was like "you know what, I should check the source because I don't remember the exact quote."

And it turns out I never actually saw the exact quote. Nor did anyone talking about it bother to include the context. And while I don't think either removes the queerbait-y* or arophobic aspects of the statement, they certainly make it better than it initially seemed to me.

Here's the stream (linked to the proper place): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5ONxBZoR0A&t=3793s

And here's a loose transcript (it cuts out some less relevant statements in-between but loses almost no context as far as I could tell): https://www.reddit.com/r/HazbinHotel/comments/mle06e/alastors_sexual_orientation_aromanticasexual/

*I am keeping the actual word on the shelf, I just don't know a better one to use here. I think what she said is SIMILAR to queerbaiting but is NOT queerbaiting.

With the queerbait-y stuff, it still maintains the "aromantic people, tune in, this character may or may not be aromantic. We'll tell you eventually, just keep watching!"

With the arophobia, it still maintains the prioritization of shipping over representation, and treats aromanticism as a subsect of asexuality at best, and as flat out not an orientation at worst.

I don't think either is as bad as my original perception, but they certainly aren't good. And keep in mind, this was 3 years ago, any number of things about her beliefs could have changed in any which way since then.

But what gets me is that Vivziepop absolutely did not say that everyone should just let everyone else have their fun. What she said was to have fun and be respectful of his orientation and the people that are represented by him. She says that multiple times.

I'm not feeling this generous, but I guess you could say the fandom had some kind of Mandela Effect over what she actually said.

I think it's more likely that a few people, maliciously or not, spread the incorrect paraphrase without context, and the rest of the fandom, reasonably, believed them.

Anyway the lesson here is check your sources before you contribute to misinformation on the internet.

#hazbin hotel #neon's void #to be very clear: this post is just meant to correct the misinformation I saw floating around and believed myself #it is not a defense of vivziepop #nor is it a reflection of my personal opinions on shipping Alastor or any other aspec character #(my opinions on it are different than hers)

[straightbaittournament]

(shaking, through tears) may the best bait win! propaganda under the cut:

mulder and scully:

Infamously treated and teased by showrunners + writers like how a gay couple would be baited and like a gay couple in general, although eventually they do kiss and have a son (although that falls through and they become kind of divorced)

during the entire original run of the show i'm pretty sure chris carter would have said they never had a romantic relationship (they had a baby without ever having had sex!) however in the revival their sort of ambiguous What Are We deal was made a lot more explicit so feel free to veto based on these grounds LITERALLY INVENTED 'SHIPPING'. YOU'RE WELCOME

while i'm... pretty sure they get together eventually (i've only watched a bit of the x-files), from what i've heard they invented the term "shipping" because of people arguing over whether they would/should be romantically involved, so i think they should be included, for fandom history reasons if nothing else

they are a man and a woman who don't get together until ridiculously late but are hilariously devoted to one another, clingy, self-sacrifice-y, and also Forehead Kisses

They’re together but they’re not they love each other but barely know each other

clara and twelve:

their relationship is heavily romantic coded, but is never explicitly confirmed as romantic or not. the queerbait thing of teasing them on socials but never paying them off in canon applies here! also secret love confessions by way of double entendre or omission

they "arent romantic" but obviously they are

They are a man (I guess?) and a woman never get together but physical contact is filmed with such tension, there's jealousy with one member's significant other, "do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference," "I'm changing history to save Clara," "run you clever boy and be a Doctor," "people like you and me, we should say things to one another," "I'll be the judge of time," "If you love me in any way..." okay these all have context but trust me it's Insane

They never get to be together and in their last episode together, Clara presumably confesses her love to him and WE DONT EVEN SEE IT. like immediately after he gets his memory wiped.

#straightbait tournament round 1 #the x files #x files #relationshipping #msr #sculder #whouffaldi #twelveclara #doctor who #poll #polls #poll tournament #fox mulder #dana scully #clara oswald #the twelfth doctor #twelfth doctor #twelve #x-files #the x-files

[ilovedthestars]

and also just. the way ambiguity in relationships is assumed to be romantic, too. see, i wrote that whole post a while back about how I loved ambiguous fictional relationships, with deep devotion but no clear label as to the type of relationship. i called it love as in significance--that's where my tag comes from. love as in being important to someone, in whatever form that takes.

and what I said then about how this applies to romance still applies--when I'm reading about a fictional romance, I'll be much more engaged with one that feels built on that foundation of significance than one that isn't. flirting, the trappings of modern courtship, those feel empty to me without the feeling that these characters already matter to each other. (this is why in real life I'm so perplexed by things like dating apps, or people who actively seek out romance with strangers--I just personally can't fathom the idea of wanting that kind of closeness with someone you don't already know and care for.)

but in regards to ambiguity....I feel like I've been burned a little. I loved ambiguity because it meant you could take many things away from it. other people could see romance, but I could see the kind of deeply devoted platonic relationship that, let's be honest, is incredibly rare in fiction. but I'm starting to feel frustrated by the way ambiguity is assumed to be romance, without an explicit statement that it's not. (I've joked about the obligatory "no hetero" moments that have to be inserted into the start of a piece of media that has a male and a female protagonist with any kind of relationship other than romance--the "not with those lips" moment in the D&D movie, for example. It's funny, and i appreciate it being made very clear, but it's kind of sad that it has to be.)

and...okay, there's an elephant in the room that i really should acknowledge. I was talking about it in that first post, but I made a point of never mentioning it, although i'm sure plenty of people guessed.

I haven't watched Good Omens season two. I'm not sure if I'm ever going to. When I first wrote about my love for ambiguous relationships back in February of 2023, Aziraphale and Crowley were at the top of my list. When I wrote about how ambiguity left room for anyone to see themselves represented, and how i wished that a little more space was left for aro voices, I was talking about them. I was frustrated by people who saw that ambiguity as "queerbaiting"--didn't they see that the story was already queer, that Aziraphale and Crowley cared so deeply for each other, and whether they kissed or not wouldn't change anything?

But they did kiss. And it did change something. I don't feel like there's a place left for me anymore. And there's social pressure to celebrate, to be happy for another canon queer love story on TV, and god I'd love to celebrate that, but I can't help but feel a little betrayed by a story that I thought would leave space for me.

(and yes, a kiss doesn't have to mean romance--but in this, in hollywood, it's assumed to. the creators and the audience both understand it as such, unless someone stops to say no, we're friends who kiss each other the mouth, we're subverting your expectations. because the expectations are inescapable.)

I've been trying to give myself the space to feel upset about this. To remember that aro stories are queer stories too. And I think I'm raising my standards. I'll take ambiguity--I'll take any carved-out space I can find. But I'm not sure I trust it anymore. I want explicitly platonic relationships with the level of love and devotion and care usually reserved for romance. I want to read and watch and listen to stories about people who are significant to each other without romance even being in the picture. I want love that isn't synonymous with romance. I'm going to stop feeling like I have to settle for anything less.

#stars has thoughts #aro thoughts #love as in significance #platonic love #amatonormativity #aphobia #sorry for not tagging this go2 spoilers but it's been a while and i think everyone's either seen it or given up avoiding spoilers #and i frankly don't want to put this anywhere near a good omens tag #also: as usual this is a complaint about broader media trends that can't be solved by a few counter examples #BUT i will still take media recs especially from fellow aspecs #i need more platonic love stories in my life

[theophagie-remade]

I've been kind of following the Gundam lesbians vs Bandai controversy from the sidelines (ie: the main characters got married (offscreen) at the end of the series and the production team is supportive; Bandai censored the explicit mentions of marriage in a recent magazine and then said that everything is up to interpretation) and. In general it's a really good example of how oftentimes it's not authors who should mainly be blamed for the lack of unapologetic queerness in anime and manga (or anywhere else, for that matter), but those companies that they work for

Which leads me to

And as a side note I want to reiterate this but anyone who calls them "queerbait", "yuribait", etc is a stupid dickhead because Toga is bisexual and in love with Uraraka. THE QUEER IS THERE

At this point it no longer makes much sense to wonder whether the romantic undertones to Uraraka and Toga's relationship are accidental or not. I won't claim that they will definitely end up together together (although I've seen enough Japanese fans go crazy for how proposal-esque Uraraka got to, like, at least entertain the thought lol), but what I want to say is. Everything that happened between them is deliberately meant to be read as queer, romantic, and mutual. Uraraka may have not said "I love you" back to Toga in these same terms, but through her actions and words she has reciprocated her feelings. Yes, even if Those Assholes say that she's just lying, that anything that isn't spoon-fed explicitly confirmed is just a "delusional interpretation"

Even then, the supposed line between text and subtext is... a bit eyebrow raising, innit. Toga being bisexual and having feelings for Uraraka is text. Exchanging blood being equal to kissing to her is text. Her insecurities are text......... Uraraka wanting to give Toga her blood, thinking that her smile is beautiful, and that she's the cutest in the whole world is text. I feel like that strongly suggests something at minimum, no. And. Can we really call it subtext, or even coding, when characters do everything short of dramatically shouting "I gay-love you!" to each other? These are more of my personal feelings, and I know that this happens because We Live In A Society, so we tend to feel like things like these must be outright defined so that our queer interpretations can gain validity and the right to exist in the eyes of the majority (= the cishet audience), but... I do find this way of engaging with media rather stifling, especially because... people who hate us to begin with won't care if two manga girls declare their love to each other. Chances are that they will get angrier, actually, or that they will look for excuses to deny their love ("the author was pressured by crazy shippers", "akchually the wording is ambiguous", "the degenerate West is corrupting the purity of the East", you name it)

Still, I know. I know that there's a lot of hunger for undeniably canonical queer relationships (for obvious reasons! understable reasons!), but to circle back to the beginning of this post, pushing back against the system is hard. Bnha's ending is still a ways off, and no one can predict the future. We don't know if Horikoshi plans to stress even further/more bluntly within the manga that Oh, They 👭🏳️‍🌈, we don't know if Jump would allow him to, we don't know if such a thing would be met with opposition elsewhere/afterwards (see: what Bandai is trying to do now, after everything has been said and done).

Regardless, sought after explicit confirmation or not, they do have something, something that is very much there to anyone who's willing to embrace it for what it is: mutual, queer love. And they're sooo real 🩷💛

#bnha #togachako #animanga #mytext #and now we finally go to sleep. eepy....... #if tomorrow i'll wake up look at this again and find any typos i will end it all #long post

[martinsharmony]

Thank you for your RPF post. I agree. I wake up thinking of scenarios for DT/MS. They're just there, in my head, being in love and content. And I need them there. I need to know that even middle aged queers can find love, that lives adapt, that finding new love doesn't mean abandoning established love.

I need to see happy, older queers thriving in our bigoted, hateful world. Because I don't get to have that happy ending myself. And because young questioning queers need to see it, know they have a chance. To know that not everyone finds their someone(s) in high school or college. To know that everyone's path and timeline are different.

And MS and DT are such lovely people, inside and out, truly kind and giving and they deserve happiness in whatever shape that takes. It warms my poor, injured heart to see them gazing at one another adoringly, their softness for each other plain on their faces. To see them choose to be in each other's lives over and over. Like, how wonderful! How can someone hate on that? They're little bright spots in my cloudy world.

My shipping them with never affect them. I don't know them, I'm not in their circles, they will never know I exist. If any of them are seeking out the RPF fics, then they are reading them intentionally because they want to. (I'm sure MS has written and submitted some himself based on various interviews over the years.) They aren't fighting allegations of a relationship, they continuously fuel them, even. Something I don't think they'd do if they felt it was harmful to their careers, untrue, or as queerbaiting. They're allies at a minimum, they wouldn't cheapen the lived experiences of other queers for a couple of extra asses in seats at a show.

Anyhow, thank you for your well thought out post and for making me feel seen, even as I hide behind an anonymous ask.

Thank you so, so much for writing this. My apologies in taking so long to respond.

And thank you for saying that my post made you feel seen. I truly appreciate that. RP shippers are the red headed step children in the fandom world. You saying you felt seen by my writing made ME feel seen by your appreciation, and truly by receiving this ask as well.

I agree with you. I have never seen anything so wholesome in my life as the way Michael and David are with each other. They just exude love. It's so pure. I really don't understand the vitriol against it. I mean the majority of our "fuel" comes from them in the 1st place. Plus it's evident when you watch them interact.

I just chalk up the hate to it saying more about them than us.

And yes, of course people can find love at any age and regardless of what state their current relationships are already in. Why should we think they are not with each other because they are each already in relationships? Because they are famous? Because they have kids? That makes no sense. People do it every day.

Yeah no way they are doing this for any kind of "marketing" or whatever, except to provide some kind of narrative that would allow them to hide in plain sight. That way they can be just about as "free" to be themselves and show as much affection toward one another as reasonably feasible. I wish they could feel 100% free to be out in the open with it, but I also realize they probably prefer privacy as well.

I look to them as relationship goals. I hope to someday find someone that I feel as at home with as I believe they feel with each other.

#shennant #sheenant #ineffable lovers #michael loves david #david loves michael #rps #real person shipping #michael x david #david x michael #ask #SlashWhore

[kawaiixchaotic]

billie eilish has been dropping hints about her sapphic attraction for years but felt pressured out of the closet on the red carpet today, bc it's all the interviewers kept fixating on. yes she said she is physically attracted to women in an interview recently but ppl keep pushing for details that we are not entitled to. and everyone's so happy about it too, which is funny to me. y'all switch up quick. remember when y'all accused her of "queerbaiting" over a music video and an instagram caption? bc i do. the only reasoning you all had was that she had only ever (publicly) been with boys. as if one cannot like both boys and girls. as if one has to use dating history to earn queer credit if they are attracted to multiple genders. that, and her saying she was "straight as a ruler" one time when she was 15 or smthn, which, let's get real. we've all said that. i said that. and now I'm a lesbian.

a similar situation happened with kit connor from heartstopper. he held hands with a girl and you all went fucking ballistic. to me his case was worse bc he got practically kicked and shoved out of the closet. he didn't get to come out on his own terms. i hope you guys aren't still expecting anything from that poor kid, bc he doesn't owe any of you bullies anything, and i wouldn't blame him if thoughts about the heartstopper fandom leave a bad taste in his mouth to this day.

so why am i bringing all this up? bc there's something particular about the online LGBTQ+ community that has been bothering me for years now: Check your biphobia. Because clearly it is affecting your worldview a whole lot more than you think, no matter how young you are, or how progressive you think you are.

Any public figure who even alludes to liking multiple genders, you put under a microscope. you wait for them to "prove it" to you. any action they take that doesn't feel queer enough to you, you pounce. they are (i feel, deliberately) misinterpreted and ostracized, and what hurts most is, we are supposed to be there for anyone who is questioning their sexuality as a safe space, to help them figure themselves out, answer their questions. and yet somehow we've become their biggest opps. what hurts more is the fact that it's mostly very young people doing this! I don't know if you're all just looking for things to be mad at or what. But I could honestly rant about this for all of eternity so let me end it with this:

TLDR; by taking the stance that public figures have to show and prove their queerness, you are furthering biphobic stererotypes, and by drawing the ridiculous conclusion that an individual is "queerbaiting," (which is a corporate marketing tactic, ffs) you are freezing them in time and being unreasonable about the amount of growth and self-discovery we do as human beings. grace should not only be afforded to those who are "out," and only validating queerness if someone announces it is unfair and ignores the many circumstances that could prevent someone from coming out, like risking danger at home, legal persecution, or simply a want for privacy. STOP BEING SUCH INSUFFERABLE LITTLE ASSHOLES.

Thank you for coming to my TEDTalk.

#lgbtq #lesbian #sapphic #queer discussions #queer discourse #bi solidarity #biphobia #real people can't queerbait #queerbaiting #rant post #billie eilish #kit connor #heartstopper #bisexuality

[sageistrii]

This is slightly controversial and honestly you can skip this completely if you think this might bring hate to Jimin in any form because that's not my intention at all. I trust your judgement.

I was just thinking about what your anon said about taking kpop shipping too far in the case of Karina who I don't know so I don't know if that's accurate for her. But I was thinking, though I blame the majority of the strange perception around Jimin and jikook on shippers, because they overblow certain things for no reason even though Jimin does the same thing with other members, sometimes I wonder if he isn't slightly to blame for the shipping mess he's gotten himself in? Not most things but just a few incidents like the whole biting JK on the neck thing, or the whole JK carrying Jimin out of the concert.

Both of them know they have shippers and I understand they grew up in a culture where it's normal for kpop group members to act like that but when I see pjms blame taekook for feeding their shippers which they definitely do, I feel Jimin is also very slightly guilty of the same and we sweep it away because we love Jimin and also he seems like a very touchy guy but I just find it a tiny bit hypocritical to blame everything on everyone but absolve Jimin. He's definitely the least problematic person in this situation but... I give Jimin the benefit of the doubt always because he's a touchy guy who's grown up in kpop but I also give the other two the same grace. Does that make sense?

He's not being absolved of anything. Jm has gotten hate all his career because he's touchy, he's been called an attention seeker, queerbaiter, homewrecker and a slut. He knows about the hate and the fact that he never limited his physical interaction with members because of it should tell you all you need to know.

Jimin's connection to jikook as a ship has done nothing for him, in fact it's done more harm than good so wouldn't it be counterproductive if he was like that because he wanted the stans to think he was gay and in a relationship with jk and in turn make them like him and his music?

Also Jimin is like that with all the members at all times, as opposed to certain members who initiate forced interactions when they need to promote their music. Jimin is touchiest with Hobi and Hobi is just as touchy and they barely have shippers, it's not his fault if jikookers think he's dating jk when he acts the exact same with other members. Like I'm sure Jimin isn't doing all that with Hobi because he wants armys to think they're dating.

Jimin already addressed this and he has explicitly stated that he doesn't do fan service or bromance, he's just being himself if you were a Jimin Stan you would know that.

No one thinks Jimin is gay or bi because he clings to his members, they think he is because of how he's perceived and because of things that have been insinuated.

Jk carried Jimin out, not the other way around so I'm confused and that's like the tamest thing BTS members have done with each other. And they said Jimin bit him because he wouldn't stop swirling him around they never insinuated anything romantic with it, jikookers did that all by themselves. BTS members have playfully kissed each other on camera, if Taekook did that no one would think they were doing it because they wanted to feed taekookers, like we literally have a picture of Jin hugging a shirtless jk, was that posted because Jin thought it would make armys think he was gay and was dating jk?

Don't act clueless like you don't remember the moments that made people say Taekook were feeding their shippers, like it wasn't because there are multiple instances of Taekook being touchy feely so what are you talking about?

Pjms said that when Tae was name dropping jk throughout his debut, the awkward lives and how they became besties around the time they were both debuting and were embroiled in dating rumors, it's not like we go around saying they are queer baiters, Jimin is the one who gets those accusations. And unlike whatever they had going on at that time, Jimin wasn't being touchy with jk on camera for fan service, prior to 2022 they were always spotted out together because they were close, we also have people who have said Jimin is like that with the members behind the scenes so... 🤷🏾‍♀️

[busyxfangirling]

The second season is honestly becoming increasingly harder to watch because what are they trying to do?

The show is titled Loki but he feels like a side character is his own show, I know many MANY things are happening but literally Loki is not the central figure driving the story.

My expectations were low but I did not know Disney could do this much worse!!!!

What the FUCK was episode 3 with the Miss Minutes thing and weird little Ravonna/Victor attempt???

Marvel is just getting worse and worse with what they're putting out, I want the character or even narrative driven stories back where people were well fleshed out, had consistency and their actions made sense to who there were!!! This feels like just trying to sell shock value because you know you have a base of consumers who will stay to see what happens to their favourite character.

They are absolutely ignoring all the material they have available to them to work with! This Loki has only experienced things till the Avengers movie, there is so much character deep dive they could do! What is the point of giving them their own show and then not talking about them at all??

I'll come to the queer things later cause boy do I have a list for that, but first of all, Loki is not a new character in any capacity??? He has been loved and is arguably the biggest fan favourite since his introduction, the amount of theories about him and what people would like to see is very well known!! Right in front of them is his still unclear feelings in his adoption, about being a Jotun, loosing his family and the complicated relationships with them. I can see they are acknowledging his God of Mischief status a little bit but!! Trickster!! Let us see him be a wild card properly!! Not in the sense of betraying his new TVA family - that's what it is and you can fight me on that- but being chaotic!! Yes, using his magic like with Brad!! SHOW ME HE IS A GOD!!!

The worst thing is how lost everyone feels, like I'm not talking about the whole free will conundrum everyone is going through, that is spectacular! Unfortunately it is not coming across, we literally don't get to hear any of the characters talk about what they think of it. There was the key lime pie moment but no follow up to what that is for Loki? It's just one crisis after another, maybe rehash some of what has already happened, bring back the seriousness of this!! The entire multiverse is at stake but we'll make it look like whimsical wishy-washy stuff??!??!!!

Don't get me wrong, I am LOVING the time travel aspect of it, where it looks like Loki/Mobius are on cute dates. But then make it real, the fucking queerbaiting is ridiculous. The throw-away comment in season one about looking being bi was just that and nothing else. And I'm not saying this cause aww they look cute together! But also cause the development of their relationship has been as such!! They have been very dependent on each other and that's not being addressed at all.

I know there are multiple posts about a possible betrayal and my fear is that they're going to try to use that to basically change everything about the characters again, a lot of OOC based on the fact that oh yeah they're going through an existential crises so it makes sense.

Sylkie made barely any sense to me even apart from the whole selfcest issue- they just imposed a the structure of what a straight relationship should be where there was barely any chemistry. S1 E3 had them as really good chaotic siblings/twins and then adding the romantic tones to that really ruined it. Trying to bring it back, possibly, is just weird cause so far they want very different things. These people just don't align together, stop forcing them to? The fact that they refuse to even talk about that kiss shows that they are keeping it open and not just acknowledging that "hey, we don't want the same things in life and I'm happy for you, you matter a lot to me but a romantic relationship is not happening. Also cause you know, we're the same person, lol."

Sylvie as a character is also very confusing rn, there is honestly no need for her to keep coming back in this way??? I'm going to reserve further opinions because half the season is left but I dont expect anything to really get better.

#loki #marvel #lokius #loki season 2 #loki spoilers #mobius #kang #loki tv series #sylvie #rant

[utilitycaster]

A few recent books I've read and disliked led me to this conclusion but it feels like there's been this switch over time with queer stories. It used to be that queer relationships (or queerness in general) had to be Show Don't Tell because, well, you could not make them textual! So you get, for example, shows like Legend of Korra, or Xena: Warrior Princess, where you have women who are clearly devoted to each other to a degree that goes beyond mere friendship, and a ton of effort and care is put into that depiction because they can't actually be shown in an explicitly stated relationship. And as a result, these relationships, while they never receive confirmation in the show, are rich and complex.

Now not only is it much easier to make explicitly queer stories outside of niche areas; it's even popular (and, cynically, a marketing tactic). The problem is I've run into a bunch of stories that are marketed very clearly as A Queer Story that forget to like...be a story, or show me why these characters should be in a relationship. It's All Tell No Show: I'm told that the characters are gay and are in a relationship, but no work is done to actually explain why I should care about this beyond "well they are gay and in a gay relationship."

I'm not going to rehash what I discussed here, but Baru Cormorant is an example of those books where I'm given no real reason to care. The protagonist is a lesbian but the prose reads like a phone book. On the other hand, while Starless has a queer disabled woman as a one of the two protagonists, it also provides her with traits other than "queer, disabled, woman, important" and grants her a rich interiority (even though the story is told entirely from the first person point of view of the other protagonist.)

And the thing about the good examples in that link (Starless, Teixcalaan): they show and tell. It's both explicit that these are queer stories with a canon romantic relationship, but the little moments that make up the tapestry of a relationship are given the time that moments in a subtextual - or frankly, even a queerbaiting work are. That's the real tragedy; for queerbaiting to work, you have to actually make the relationship compelling enough for people follow it until you pull the rug out from under them; whereas you can slap a cold fish kiss on a cold fish queer relationship and technically you are Better because it was Explicit Representation even though everything about it was poorly constructed. I would rather have an lazy and shoddy explicit relationship than queerbait just on principle; but honestly I'd rather have a good story that does neither.

One of my more cynical interpretations of this is that writers are either intentionally or inadvertently taking advantage of the legacy of the Show Don't Tell era of queer coding to place the burden of those small moments on the audience. They know that people looking for queer relationships in fiction are used to having to dig for moments and subtext; but instead of providing that subtext, they set up the clunky text and assume the subtext to support it will emerge from the fandom. Or perhaps, more generously, especially for younger queer writers, they are just so used to having to provide that work themselves that they forget they are doing the writing and are able to (and should) layer subtext and text together and weave something actually good.

Either way, it's this that's led to the "Lesbian necromancers in space, need I say more"* era of recommendations, taglines, and writing, in which explicit representation is, if not plentiful, at least available; but a worrying amount of it forgets to actually write realized characters or a relationship with chemistry or a plot that makes sense.

I should also note: there's obviously a TON of straight romances and books that range from mediocre to abominable. I am under no circumstances arguing that "gayboring" media shouldn't exist. But while I don't think queer stories should be held to a higher standard, I don't think I should be obligated to settle for a lower standard either simply because it's gay. I know it's fraught, in that we're at risk of publishers and producers taking away the message "people hate this because it's gay" rather than "people hate this because it's poorly developed," but like...at the very least, could we recommend things in terms of "this is a great book that has a wonderful queer romance" and "this show is gay but it is also deeply mediocre, and if it weren't gay I wouldn't recommend it at all; do what you will with this information."

*I should note: I happen to like The Locked Tomb (of Lesbian Necromancers in Space fame) a lot! I know it's not for everyone; I know it can feel very gimmicky at times. But no matter how you feel, that tagline is DIRE and does a miserable job of representing the books. Like, that premise could suck, actually (and plenty of people find it does) if you're not sold on the mere fact that it's got lesbians, necromancy, or space in it. Worth noting that neither Starless nor the Teixcalaan books were heavily marketed as Queer Romance Fantasy/SF even though both very much are, which does further make me think this is a case of people writing good books that are queer, vs. people writing books with the intention to be on some New Queer SF list or, god forbid, Booktok.

#long post #the book i read this week (light from uncommon stars) was also like. really hit or miss #the locus review of it is spot on. like. i think one of the characters' stories is fantastic but i think it's afraid to have any bite. #also this was out of scope for this post but like. i have recommended terra ignota before #and like. it is saying THE MOST about Gender since Le Guin or Butler imo. but it's NOT marketed as queer at all #and part of that is that it's really not capable to read it as a romance (certainly not a happy one) despite there being queer pairs in it

[beauspot]

Loki Matters a Lot to Me *Long Post*

If you go on my page you’ll see that I’ve never posted about the Loki show or Lokius before so you might be wondering why now that the show is (probably) over? I always liked this show, and I considered myself a fan but coming out of it I wasn’t shipping anyone.

Don’t get me wrong I enjoyed the dynamic Loki and Mobius had but I was just happy to have Loki alive so I savored that. Also I sensed some history with Mobius and Ravonna which I still think exists. I found all of the characters interesting. That includes this season but something about season 2 was different for me and I couldn’t figure out why.

Why did this show affect me so much? Why did this second season affect me so much? And particularly why did this ship, Lokius, affect me so much?

To understand where I'm coming from you should probably understand that first of all I am queer and even before I knew I was queer I had a want for queer representation. For me oddly enough it started with Owen Wilson in Night at the Museum. Jedtavius was a pairing I didn't even realized I shipped til I was older. The enemies to lovers thing was so cute and it pretty much got confirmed in the last movie.

(Just inconspicuously having your cowboy character quote Brokeback Mountain no big deal.)

I enjoy a good ship. As I got older however I began to crave real queer representation and I was lucky enough to find it in places like Steven Universe

And Adventure TIme

Then as I reached my mid to late teens I was able to see films like Brokeback, But I'm a Cheerleader, First Girl I Loved, The Miseducation of Cameron Post etc. Seeing these made me feel more secure in my sexuality.

Of course along the way I got dragged into non canon ships some of which were queerbait like Stucky or even worse, Stormpilot/Finnpoe.

The malicious part about all of these ships is the teams behind them waving these pairings out in front of people like a dog with a bone, hoping to draw them in to get their money knowing they had no intention of following through.

And I have become disillusioned with that. I have also become annoyed with fans of straight ships that oppose those queer ships acting like we're reaching.

I bring this up because there is a certain segment of sylkis(not all) and on a broader scale fans of straight ships that have this sense of persecution because fans of a queer pairing don't like their ship. It's weird and I am tempted to say it stems from homophobia. If you simply don't enjoy a ship that's fine. There are queer ships I despise, but try and assess where that hatred comes from.

There is a language that conveys romance and it seems like only when there is a minority involved do you guys become unable to understand it. This is an issue within most fandoms when it comes to not only sexuality but race in popular ships. For example, The Bear fandom in regards to Chef's Kiss, but I digress.

When a character feels the need to constantly touch another character that signals something, when a character fixes themselves so they look nice before they see another character that signals something. The way they talk, the way they act, how they are with and without one another says A LOT.

So why is it when we point these things out we get called delusional? Why do I feel like I'm going crazy every time I speak with someone about a queer ship? And why do I always feel the need to justify it?

Straight, white, pairings never have to justify their existence. They just are. Sylvie and Loki can fight, yell at one another, hurt one another, literally be the same fucking person and people will find that ok, but suddenly when people see Loki fixing himself before he meets Mobius we can't see love in that(you’re telling me this isn’t how someone acts when they see their crush unexpectedly)? We can't see loss in Mobius when he can't even do his job anymore now that Loki is gone? We can't grieve what could have been even if we find Loki as the God of Stories cool?

Why?

Mobius is the first person in probably thousands of years to tell Loki he’s not evil and he can be good if he chooses to be. We see how much this means to him. From this point on Loki is attached to Mobius like a puppy. Mobius becomes his person. I find something so refreshing about Mobius calling Loki out but then also offering him a path to redemption. He doesn’t let Loki slide, because he cares about him enough to know he can be better and Loki deserves to be better for himself.

So I was bothered by the way the finale was set up. I know they have the conversation about “the burden of glorious purpose” and often I am honestly a supporter of not everyone gets a happy ending even if they “deserve” it in a storytelling sense. I find the tragedy in that intriguing, but this didn’t feel good to me on a personal level. I didn’t walk away from the finale feeling sad but fulfilled, I walked away from it feeling miserable and empty. And I recognize that I attach myself to characters more than the general populace but I don’t really care? This hurt.

Loki wanted nothing more than for somebody to be there with him, to be for him, to love him and instead he ends up alone. Mobius ends up back in his timeline but he can't go back to his life. A version of him is already there and our Mobius doesn't even remember his children. Mobius doesn't smile at the end because he isn't happy. He's alone. They are alone and realistically there's a high chance these versions of them will never see each other again.

Does Sylvie seem bothered by that? No. She's ready to go live her life. And there’s nothing wrong with that, she took the gift Loki gave to her but Mobius is clearly, deeply hurt by Loki being gone. Because they found purpose in each other. In the order and chaos.

Having watched Good Omens and Our Flag Means Death season 2(along with the movie Bottoms starring Ayo Edebiri which everyone should watch 😁) in the same year I have become quite used to seeing queer rep in my mainstream shows. As the years have passed more and more queer characters are able to take center stage. So even though I knew Disney's track record I still held out hope because even the writer and composer saw the potential in Lokius.

Tom and Owen did too somewhat, but at the end of the day actors don't write the shows.

I think what bothers me most is that Loki is the first queer character in the MCU, we've seen him struggle and grow and learn to love and finally last season his queerness was made explicit (more than in Thor Ragnarok where he like fucked the Grandmaster or something). And they immediately paired him off with a version of himself.

Loki isn't gay so I'm not saying he had to end up with a man or anything you can be queer and end up with someone who is a gender different than yours my issue is a broader one which is, this story wasn't made to validate bi/pan people who date the opposite sex or whatever it was made to close Loki off to any other possibilities. One of those being Mobius.

Rewatching season 1 this decision is exacerbated because there are moments where they could have had him flirt with a man like when he was D.B. Cooper and boom we have on screen rep, but they decided “nah let’s just have him say it one time and then never acknowledge it again.” Again I want to reiterate, you can be queer and not be in a same gender relationship, but this is a television character. We don’t know their innermost thoughts like we’re reading a book we have to take them at their actions and we never got the opportunity for our first queer character to express that(at least in his own show because remember the grandmaster, but somehow that feels worse).

The executive producer recently came out and said Loki and Mobius were always meant to be platonic because they were trying to dismantle toxic masculinity by portraying “platonic male friendships”. A phrase I have grown to hate over the years because ALL WE EVER SEE ARE PLATONIC MALE FRIENDSHIPS. This is another parallel with issues I have with The Bear in which the cast and crew were like “why can’t women and men just be friends?” but only in reference to the black girl. Back to the topic at hand though.

Have you ever met a queer person who acknowledges they’re queer once and then never talks about it again? Especially someone with as much showmanship as Loki? Does that make sense to anybody? Even if he ultimately ended up with Sylvie(which I wouldn’t have liked but I digress) that would have been enough for me.

But instead we had this troubled character give up everything and everyone they love to sit on a throne they didn’t even want so that their friends could have a choice. So that they could have a life. And again I can find beauty in that, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it. And I won’t pretend I do.

🥀End of Post🥀

sidenote ouroboros is so autistic tell me i’m wrong. he’s literally an autistic with no experience of ableism just pure autistic sunshine.

#loki #loki laufeyson #mcu loki #mobius #mobius m mobius #lokius #loki x mobius #loki season 2 #loki series #loki spoilers #lgbtq #loki odinson #the bear #the bear fx #the bear hulu #chefs kiss #sydcarmy #sydney adamu #tom hiddleston #owen wilson #ayo edebiri

[sevensoulmates]

I must say I'm kinda baffled by the way some people are reacting towards Tommy and Buck's scene. Like we may have bi Buck on the horizon so I think we all should be happy about it, I know we are all protective of our ship but this is a good thing because there has to be a catalyst, something that will make a change in Eddie and Buck relationship and this is it. Buck's bi realization is a must if buddie it's going to happen because if buddie does end being together it can't be sudden, it has to be built on. So I'm having a blast with Tommy's character 🤷 he's a funny guy.

Also I may know nothing about cinematography but that little scene there with Tommy, Buck and Eddie seemed important for a reason.

Btw I was wondering about this interview https://youtu.be/vlCRTTAfeYs?si=oiVXhkBu7WQ9hV_1

Because sometimes I still struggle with the real meaning behind some sentences or words in English, when Oliver said:

"You can’t have the audience interpretation in mind too much when you make the show. You have to make it and put it out in the world and people can take what they want."

Can this be interpreted as they wouldn't care if some viewers may have an homophobic reaction towards Eddie and Buck getting together or I'm reading things differently?

I understand people being sensitive to "another barrier" towards buddie but like...yeah, it's getting a little out of hand. It's fine to feel your feelings, but keep them in your group chat's or to your like-minded friends. Please don't make them other people's problems.

I am also having a blast with Tommy! I wasn't sure how they were going to take his character with the reintroduction given how he wasn't the most well-liked character in the Begins episodes. Again, if POC fans never want to forgive him or like him, that's totally fine. I won't ever get on people's cases for disliking him for his past actions. But I do think he'll prove to be interesting if he plays a role for Buck (and Buddie by extension).

I'll give you my personal interpretation (which could be up for debate) of what Oliver said in that interview. To me, he's saying, that he can't always be policing himself when he's acting by wondering "is the audience going to think I'm making this scene too gay?", "will they get mad at me and accuse me of queerbaiting if I act in certain ways with Ryan/Eddie in this scene?", etc. I think that Oliver is very aware of how he and his actions are perceived by the fandom. He's always been the one who has dealt with the brunt of people screaming "BUDDIE!" and "QUEERBAITER!" in his face. If the long-running theory that FOX was purposely not letting Buddie happen is true, then Oliver was probably very aware that anything he did or said would give fans false hope and would lead to disappointment and people disliking him. He seems like a really good guy who doesn't want to really hurt people's feelings that way. But at the end of the day, it hinders an actor's ability to give a character or a scene their all if they're constantly overthinking how it will be perceived by the audience.

So, I think Oliver is saying that he's no longer overthinking his actions when it comes to the way he acts as Buck. If people want to perceive a scene/action as gay, then okay. If they don't, okay. If they hate it, okay. If they love it, fantastic. And the same for any solo Buck scenes or non-buddie scenes too. I'm glad he's trying not to let how other people perceive his acting choices get to him anymore.

I hope I explained myself clearly! And again, that's just MY interpretation of what he said. I'm sure there are plenty of other valid interpretations too.

#911 abc #buddie #oliver stark #911 bts #911 press #speculation #bucktommy #buck x tommy

[lmskitty]

What do you think about the answer to this https://www.tumblr.com/gojuo/742796780522061824/is-satosugu-a-queerbaiting-ship?source=share ?

Look politely to that person they are able to read narrative and view it however they wish. No hate to them, they are absolutely right in that certain things are canon and certain things arent.

Here is a list of canonical things that Gojo has done regarding Geto/Gege has put in canon

-calling them his one and only

-saying his heart and soul knew otherwise

-an entire plan working on the basis that seeing them back from the dead would be enough to stall him

-having their deaths happen on December 24th which is a day considered super romantic in Japan.

-having Kenjaku state that to be creepy and refer to it as a date despite having used that emotional connection to manipulate them

-the urge to protect Gojo being so strong Geto briefly took control of his own body FROM THE AFTERLIFE to try and stop Kenjaku

- Gojo recognised Geto by scent after TEN YEARS (?!?!?!?)

- Geto specifically wore a Gojo- kesa because of the name

-Geto told a girl he would refer to her as Sato because he liked the name more

https://shipping.fandom.com/wiki/SatoSugu (for even more!!!)

I get not reading it that way, you wanna read them as friends that's fine but you cannot argue they can't be read as displaying romantic affection and that people reading that are seeing something that isn't there. It doesn't need to be stated as romantic but there is 100% love there and the entirety of the plot is driven from that and the break down of their relationship and the paths that leads them on.

Also (and I'm getting real tired of pointing this out) no one would say shit if either of them were female. If they were heterosexual people would be writing articles about this being the most romantic narrative in a manga regardless of if the canon remained the same and we never saw either of them act on their feelings.

I mean come on Gojo didn't give us love is the most twisted curse of all with no romantic basis.

But. The most important factor here is this.

It doesn't fucking matter. Everyone can read a text and get a different perspective from it. We don't all have to agree on the reading, there are headcanons people have that I don't agree with but think are neat , I have headcanons that are 100% fanon that most people would disagree with. OP is right in that everything else is fandom but it doesn't matter dude. You wanna ship them you ship away, I will state I've not interacted with anyone gaslighting or throwing it in people's faces, maybe I'm just in a good part of the fandom? If people are doing that which tbh I don't doubt, fandoms are insane and I've been in them since I was 11 and I'm 31 now, then that's shitty behaviour and ridiculous. People can ship how they want, just keep your fandom friends circle small you know? Fandoms should be for enjoyment so if it's getting toxic then cut your losses and start blocking I guess.

In summation:

Life is short, don't be a dick, you don't really need canon confirmation to enjoy a ship but don't chuck it in other people's faces or call people gaslighting for reading deeper into canon.

#satosugu #stsg #goge #anon ask

[will80sbyers]

I don't agree with the thought that if Mike is not queer he's a terrible person but I would think some scenes do not make ANY sense for the character and that he was written a bit out of character if he ended up being straight... he wouldn't be just an asshole that I wouldn't care if he died but I would be so fucking confused about everything they decided to make him do this season...???? like, it would be all ambiguous on purpose to just queerbait with byler, if Mike was straight.

I think he is written since the start as a compassionate person full of love that is trying his best constantly while growing up and facing his own struggles as a character, I know he's not written to be homophobic and I don't think he was written to be a bad friend to Will in season 4

I am convinced the weird stuff in the story is because he has some feelings for Will already, even if he's not aware of the fact that they are romantic and he's trying to avoid thinking about it and he wants to keep as believing they are platonic when they are not... he does feel "the electricity" between them!!

like...

calling the Byers constantly to the point that Dustin was annoyed by him complaining about Will not picking up the phone but not saying ANYTHING to Will about how much he called him when Will said he should have called more

his jealousy over the painting and him thinking that it was for a girl and acting like he didn't want to hug Will when he saw him again at the airport

being angry at Will for not telling him what Eleven should have told him, because he was angry that Will didn't call him more and didn't tell him anything because he thought Will didn't care about talking to him or being his bestfriend anymore and was acting like an ass to him and El all day because of that before he knew that El was lying to him... to the point that Will not talking to him made him feel like Will was sabotaging the day with his girlfriend (lmao) meaning Mike Wheeler couldn't focus on being happy about being with his girlfriend if he thinks Will is not happy about something and hates him and they are not ok

him acting more distant and fake with Eleven this season like his feelings for her really DID change

"....It's a little WeIRd"

initially avoiding saying to Will exactly what the problem with Eleven was and why they fought and what was the thing he couldn't say to her...

Mike looking at Will in the desert on his own and panicking when he sees that Will was already looking at him

Mike looking like he was thinking about kissing Will in the van and like he was mesmerised by the beautiful speech Will made and how much happiness and security Will just gifted to him with that

Mike looking at Will and his smile fading when he looks back at El in their reunion like he's feeling conflicted when he remembers what he feels for Will too...

Mike looking confused about his feelings for El, trying to say the I love you to her in the Pizza place but not being sure at all that he even wants to do that... and the fact that we can see the uncertainty in his expression and from his wording, we can see he was not feeling it.

bonus:

ZERO MIELE SCENES WHERE THEY TALK AFTER A FREAKING LOVE MONOLOGUE?????? EL LOOKING AT HIM WEIRD IN THE CABIN????

I would be so fucking confused if he was straight... but I believe byler is endgame and Mikey right here is one of the queer ones too

#byler #will byers #mike wheeler #el hopper byers #anti mileven #bike wheeler don't disappoint me #my gifs #my gif