#arda meta

[ettelenethelien]

ok, but how much did the numenoreans know about the fate of men? because...

the thing is, when you share Tolkien's Faith, the way it's always presented as such a huge mystery is almost funny. because you can so, so easily guess -- well, not even guess, you just know what he meant; it has to be the same as ours, whereas in-world it's always "well, mandos knows, and maybe manwë". kudos for being aware of something most of the valar aren't, then.

but how much do the numenoreans know or guess? they say "we must die and go we know not whither" and I used to pity them a bit for that uncertainty -- which, of course, would not excuse anything, but might be disquieting, especially when you're placed next to the immortal elves. we seem to be pointed towards the edain of the first age having no beliefs they were certain about in regards to this, going only on hope -- one of the closest things we get is when hurin has his moment of defiance to morgoth: "well, you cannot keep on tormenting us after we die! then we're out of your reach", but interestingly, as far as what concerns us here, he replies to an accusation that he's just repeating what the elves taught him (which is not a valid counterargument, but never mind), saying that no, it just came to him in that very moment. in general, we get the idea that they know very little, though some of them vaguely hope for something good (and I do wonder whether news of Beren shook things up at all, even if he did not, after all, meet the full fate of men that first time, just waited in the hallway).

so far, so good, if a bit bleak, but then we get to The Mariner's Wife, and Meneldur's dramatic monologue:

'May Eru call me before such a time comes!' he cried aloud.

and

'I am in too great doubt to rule. To prepare or to let be? To prepare for war, which is yet only guessed: train craftsmen and tillers in the midst of peace for bloodspilling and battle: put iron in the hands of greedy captains who will love only conquest, and count the slain as their glory? Will they say to Eru: At least your enemies were amongst them? Or to fold hands, while friends die unjustly: let men live in blind peace, until the ravisher is at the gate? What then will they do: match naked hands against iron and die in vain, or flee leaving the cries of women behind them? Will they say to Eru: At least I spilled no blood?

and you could read it differently; to be honest the polish translation gives less room for doubt, which may colour my interpretation, but it does seem that he knows, or guesses with seeming certitude, and that is such a different attitude from everything else I've mentioned.

what have I to say to this? nothing except that beliefs may have grown or changed. I am very far from an expert on this, but, within ancient Israel which might be the closest analogue, and was even mentioned in connection to Númenor by Tolkien, beliefs regarding the afterlife seem to have indeed evolved with time; compare, say, the Psalms with (2nd) Maccabees (*the latter is in the Catholic Bible, but not in the Protestant ones, if you're puzzled) or Wisdom?

yes, it's not much of a conclusion, l admit, but there isn't really anything else I might say, unless it were to add that third age gondor seems to be somewhere in between, with a vague and hopeful sense of something, aragorn's "and beyond [the circles of the world] there is more than memory" and faramir's "till that time, or till some other time, beyond the reach of the seeing stones of númenor" (italics mine) being the relevant quotes. (the rather dramatic, if you think about it, context for the latter, being that faramir is probably well aware neither he nor frodo are that likely to see the next month. also worth noting that the italicised phrase is in text paired with the image of an alternatively possible - though "beyond hope" - meeting where they could "laugh at old grief, in the sun")

(the rohirrim seem to have their own beliefs, but they also seem to come with their own traditions, which, while not on the most part incompatible, may at times have been different. on the other hand, what we have is not much less vague either, just cloaked in different terms, so there isn't much evidence either way.)

#my post #Númenor #edain #Tolkien meta #tolkien #Silmarillion #lotr #peoples of arda #mini essay

[novemberthecatadmirer]

Headcanon about Morgoth, the Void and Dagor Dagorath

My crazy headcanon is Morgoth initially stole the Silmarril because he wanted to make sure Yavanna could not use them to make new Trees. Yes the gems were beautiful but he had no use for them.

Then in the horrible Unlight he looked at Ungoliant, this creature from the Void, this being that just existed and eating and eating and never create anything, this thing that’s hunger itself, and realized, Oh.

He realized he could become something like this. Actually, he would become something like this. He already lost the ability to create and he could feel the desire to destroy, the desire to twist and eliminate everything others created, that desire was growing stronger and stronger inside him. He remembered originally he knew what he wanted to create, he wanted to undo the world and build a new one in his way. But now he could no longer recall the full picture of his new world. It was a past dream that was quickly fading, replaced by the wish to just destroy everything. Like a Spider.

He realized he was slowly becoming a Spider. He was already on this path. He had used his one chance to turn back to firmly push himself further down in this direction. Too late.

The family he betrayed, they knew, some of them. He remembered Namo listening to his yelling like some of those elves listening to their horrible kids throwing a fit. Nenna cried for him. Este tried to invite him for tea and demanded him to “heal himself.” Ulmo hated him. Yavanna stayed away from him like he was some kind of foul things that will make her sick. Varda looked at him with that mocking, knowing smile. “I know where you are going,” she once mouthed to him. He remembered Manwe looked so sad. “Why are you doing this to yourself?” His brother, too good to understand evil, ever so condescending, asked him with real concern. He hated it.

Now he understood. Indeed. Why would anyone do this to themselves? Why would anyone condemn themself to become a Spider and end up being claimed by the Void? Of course Manwe knew this. He was the one who knew the most about the vision of Arda. He was the one who knew better. Unable to understand evil? How do you understand why someone do something, when you fully understand doing that brings only harm to themselves? How do you understand why someone do things that will make them a slave of the Void?

Probably the One was the only one that could forgive him now. If he begged. But he would not beg. He might have threw away everything but he had his pride.

The Silmarils burned his hands. Good! That meant he was still NOT a Spider. How foolish the Ungliant was to ask for the gems. He did not know what would happen if the Spider touched them, but nothing good. Maybe they’ll cancel out each other, the Strength and Love and Hope of this world and the Hopeless Hunger from the Void existed before the world was made.

He was going to keep the gems. He was going to clench them until and after the end of this world. He was not going to let them go. They were going to keep him safe, AWAY from the Void. With the Silmarils he would never become a Spider. Everything was going to be well.

——————————

I think the Silmarils really mattered more to Morgoth than them mattered more to anyone else. My headcanon is the more depressed you are the more attractive the gems feel to you. Morgoth basically was drowning in Nihilism in the end of his character arc.

The worst thing to happen to an artist that live for making things is losing the ability to create. Morgoth did that to himself. He did not knew it; he thought he was just going to have fun destroying other people’s artwork and his own creativity would bear no harm. Actually he was the one who got harmed the most. Yet he still would not regret and say sorry and mean sorry, because he would always try to convince himself there would be other solutions (world domination and the Silmarils) that would help him without hurting his pride and forcing him to take responsibilities.

(The evil is clever but also stupid.)

It’s interesting that Morgoth ended up in the Void soon after losing the Silmarils.

My crazy headcanon is the Valar did not push Morgoth into the Void. They would not do that to anyone.

The Void came for him. The Void claimed him, because he was already a creature of the Void. Then the Void swallowed him whole.

He would never escape.

——————————

As for the Dagor Dagorath? My headcanon is it’s not Morgoth breaking out of the Void. Instead it was going to be the opposite way round: It would be Arda sliding into the Void.

When Arda Marred got so aged and damaged, it started to slide into the Void like Morgoth and ungoliant did. That’s why human were so important in that; a lot of elves probably were just too depressed to fully reject the Void.

(Morgoth would escape but that hardly mattered. He would already became a Spider and it would be like a drowned cat trying to climb onto a sinking ship in desperation.

Also that’s why the human left Arda would “return.” They did not. The world just joined them instead. And they’ll be able to rekindle the world with the Hope they found in places out of the world.

#tolkien #silmarillion #the silmarillion #silm #silm meta #silmarillion meta #silm headcanon #silmarillion headcanon #morgoth #melkor #arda #dagor dagorath

[aeide-thea]

this tolkien meta points out some parallels i'd never particularly considered before, but the main thing it made me realize, which is tangential (and also negative) so i'm sticking it in its own post, is—why is tolkien so obsessed with niblings?

thorin has nephews. bilbo has a nephew. théoden has niblings. and with both thorin and théoden we know they're the children of a sister who gets no screentime. (denethor's sons via a long-dead wife get an honorable mention in this category also.) and part of me thinks: isn't this basically, conscious or not, a strategy that lets tolkien write about dynasties while effectively eliding the sex and marriages—and women!—that produce them?

which is easy to shrug off with the argument that those things aren't the stuff of Adventure, but rather of the society the adventurers leave behind them; but at the same time, it's all of a piece with the deeply sexist, deeply catholic ('sex must occur only within the confines of marriage, which becomes a euphemistic container for it') sensibilities that permeate tolkien's work more generally. like—look at homer. look at vergil. the domestic and familial can absolutely appear in epic. women can appear in epic.*

and of course you can say, well, tolkien's work is really more in dialogue with anglo-saxon and germanic traditions, and i'd have to admit i haven't read those stories since i was a preteen (watch me now get really into the nibelungenlied/völsunga saga/eddas…); but iirc even those featured fewer women who were always-already-dead!

⸻ * obviously éowyn does in fact get significant screentime in lotr! and even in a way where she's involved in Actual Affairs and not, like goldberry and galadriel, just a pretty symbol of the adventurers' temporary reentry into a settled sphere. but you notice that she both has to take on a male role in order to take part—she can't just fight, she has to become 'dernhelm' to do it—and that she's restored tidily to proper wedded femininity by the end of the story (hoo boy can we talk abt faramir literally wrapping her in his dead mother's mantle). anyway. loved éowyn growing up and also very vehemently think people (often women!) who claim her narrative isn't in fact sexist because it's about tolkien ~valuing healing~ are closing their eyes to how that narrative functions when it's applied to a woman specifically.

#anyway this is absolutely not a Proper Post abt this‚ that would require more rereading #of both tolkien and the germanic sagas #this is just an off-the-cuff reaction to some meta someone reblogged that Got Me Thinking #but like. strategies of sexless reproduction whose sexlessness is achieved by killing off the mothers before the story ever gets started… #anyway stay tuned for my eventual paper on the nibling-lied lmao #the matter of arda #bookblogging

[outofangband]

I actually wanted to repost this ramble about Morwen with edits now that I’m almost done with one of the relevant posts 

It’s been awhile since I’ve rambled about Morwen being accused of witchcraft so I just thought I’d confirm that I’m still absolutely obsessed with it and all its implications and possibilities. It remains one of my very favorite details for so many reasons. 

I love that Morwen is genuinely feared by awful people and I love that their prejudices and superstitious, almost certainly ones Morgoth would foster and encourage as a being who delights in spreading discord and turning people against each other, actually work to protect her, at least in part. It’s thematically appropriate

I’m probably going to make another post about the linguistic implications from the line “Witchwife they called her and shunned her: Witchwife it is but elf friend in the new language”. I made one here already but I’ve done some more research to add. It’s such a fascinating word and the fact that human sorcerers of any kind are rare (in Arda) and the use of the word witch with with those gendered connotations is even more rare just makes it more intriguing 

Anyways as always my tag for this stuff is word ran among them if you want to blacklist it

#the silmarillion #the children of húrin #morwen #word ran among them #musing and meta #Also I wanted to post something about Morwen today for the beginning of Also I wanted to post something about Morwen today for the beginning #All of Arda is Autistic event but I didn’t have anything #:/ please feel free to request things #I mean this is sort of relevant? #this particular kind of dehumanization that Morwen faces is first and foremost misogyny of course but the fact that she's an outsider #whether because of being a refugee or being neurodivergent coded #is also relevant

[elithilanor]

Did Arda only get water tides (eg low, high, king) after the creation of the sun and moon? Or does something else create gravitation pull and waves, such as Ulmo? Or are there simply no tides in Arda given that the moon doesn’t seem to be restricted in a gravitational pull around their world, but rather placed specifically?

Thoughts?

#lotr imagine #elithilanor #lotr #silmarillion #arda #middle earth #Tolkien #Tolkien meta #ulmo #1am sick thoughts

[ospreyeamon]

the shape of arda

I've always had trouble deciding whether I prefer the cosmology as explained in The Silmarillion or one closer to the version in 'Myths Transformed' Tolkien began working on where Arda is always round and the sun and moon pre-date the Trees. On one hand I do like the idea of a world of eternal night and the first humans waking in the light of the first sunrise to hold it in adoration afterwards. But on the other hand there are things that annoy me about it, like how changing the shape of the world didn't destroy massive swaths of it in tectonic disasters, where the extra sea and land needed to cover the gaps came from, and that the sun first rises from the west.

O how I hate the idea of the sun rising in the west. The insistence that Aman is the ultimate source of all light and civilisation, flowing through the Eldar and Númenorians who have been uplifted by the Valar making them superior to all who refused it or never had it offered to them at all, is incredibly obnoxious.

While 'Myths Transformed' can be taken as proof of in-universe knowledge of planetary roundness, that does leave the question of how the mythic flat world came to be recorded by people you would expect to know better; the Ñoldor received teaching from the Valar who surely must have been aware of the shape of the world if they created it. However, I do have an idea about how it could have happened…

🎇🎆

Valar: Well done team – one circular world and it is absolutely perfect.

Melkor: What a stupid shape for a planet. I think *smash* that this *crash* will be a much better one!

Valar: ...let's try again somewhere else and pretend this never happened. If we refuse to accept the Marring of Arda and keep hope things will get better maybe the problem will magically fix itself through the power of positive thinking.

🌳🌴

Manwë: *to the elves* ...and all the layers of the Airs stretch as far as the Encircling Sea. They touch the Walls of the World, beyond which lies the Void where my beloved Varda’s stars shine.

Ulmo: Don't you think you should mention that this is only true for Aman and that Arda is round? And just because the sun and moon didn't turn out quite the way we hoped that doesn't mean we should encourage the elves to forget about them entirely.

Manwë: I think that the fact Arda should be flat is more important. The sun and the moon are old news; the Trees are much better. Just look at the way the light drips – Yavanna really out did herself with them.

1️⃣

Fingolfin's Host: It was amazing how the sun appeared just as we arrived in Middle-earth. Definitely an omen of the coming of good things.

Fëanor's Host: Actually, it was already day over here. You just didn't see the sunlight before you passed the end of the dimensional verge at the edge of the Hel... carax...

Fingolfin's Host: *glaring intensifies*

1️⃣

Ñoldor: Your ancestors must have decided to journey to Beleriand because at their awakening they saw the sun rising from the west and loved it as we love the stars.

Humans: Actually, according to our people’s lore the sun has always risen in the east and set in the west. The first elves we met – we have mentioned them before; they live beyond the mountains and don't have glowing eyes which is why we didn't realise you were related to them at first – told us that their kin had gone into the west to dwell in a land without famine or sickness where the dead can return to life. We thought that sounded like a really nice place to live.

Ñoldor: Let us explain to you why your traditions are silly and wrong.

2️⃣

Faithful: How could anyone doubt that the cosmology taught to us by the elves is correct? They were gifted the knowledge by the Valar themselves.

King's Men: A bunch of people circumnavigated the world by sailing across the Eastern Sea until they emerged from the Sundering Sea. They brought some weird birds they violently appropriated from a distant continent back with them.

Faithful: Clearly this is a conspiracy to trick us into breaking the Ban of the Valar so doom will fall upon us.

3️⃣

Third Age Scholar: It's strange how all these ancient texts describe the world as a disc even though we know it to be spherical. Perhaps the nature of Arda was changed during one of those continent-destroying cataclysms.

#Tolkien Legendarium #silmarillion meta #arda #the creation of arda #a wild headcanon appeared #Melkor Was Right #not necessarily about anything else but about this one thing Melkor Was Right #look if you're not going to put a turtle under your flat world then what's even the point

[imakemywings]

What do you think Sauron’s opinion of Elrond was?

OKAY I know this has taken me a few days and I just have to say: it's the fault of my Sims laptop which I booted up again. I don't know how that game continues to suck me in for hours at a time.

Anyway.

I mean tl;dr incredibly negative, but let's break it down.

First, I think Sauron was contemptuous of Elrond. Elrond is someone who values peace and patience and kindness. If the Second Age timeline on Tolkien Gateway is correct, he establishes Rivendell as a haven for refugees the same year that Sauron tortures Celebrimbor to death for the location of the rings of power. Sauron, as we know, is someone who values power and is willing to go through any lengths to achieve it, as well as someone who desires to impose his will on others, believing he knows best. The Nazgul are an excellent example of this--Men he tempted to corruption, bound to himself essentially as slaves, and continues to support in their tortured existence well beyond when they should have been released by death. I think he would look at anyone as gentle as Elrond and think them weak and cowardly.

In Sauron's view, Elrond either has the ability to exercise more power and chooses not to, or Elrond lacks the ability entirely and either way Sauron finds him pathetic.

However, Elrond is also a direct descendant of Luthien Tinuviel, which makes Sauron reluctant to write him off entirely. He has not forgotten that whole clusterfuck. He never had to go toe-to-toe with Dior or Elwing because the Elves were busy destroying themselves, but I think for this reason he is also wary of writing Elrond off entirely. Furthermore, although at more of a distance, Elrond is also directly related to Fingolfin "challenged Melkor to a 1v1 and actually got several hits in wtf" Finwion and Turgon "can't find me or my city can you loser" Fingolfinion. He's unwilling to out of hand assume that Elrond entirely lacks the power to cause problems for him, because his family history suggests the possibility exists.

By the time of LotR, I think Sauron knows or suspects that Elrond has one of the Three Rings of course one of Luthien's brat descendants has one which also contributes to his ability to be difficult.

He would obviously prefer for Elrond to just be dead and out of the way, and I think he looks forward to destroying Rivendell simply to spoil one of the last Elven refuges that exist in Middle-earth, but there's a reason he didn't bring the hammer down there immediately. He's had enough experience with Elrond's family to want to handle him carefully.

#elrond #lotr #sauron #meta #tolkien tag #Anon are you the same anon who asked the earlier Tolkien meta questions #I'm flattered by your interest #always happy to think more about Arda XD #mine

[spontaneouselfcombustion]

Something I like playing around with for the avari and countries of the east/south is mixing in like villain guy vibes and then have it be that the majority aren’t villainous at all, things like spiky villain architecture is a response to being basically abandoned by the valar to the hands of morgoth and sauron and their minions. If your house has like a million ominous as fuck spikes on it people done wanna climb your walls to stab you. Do you look like a metal album or fantasy bad guy? Sure. But that asshole Greg the orc ain’t fucking with your cabbages anymore.

Like I love stealing elements of the melniboneans from elric, who are Elves At Their Absolute Worst for a ideas (at least aesthetically) for a current age avari people. The avari are said in the silm to be the weakest of the elves bc they never got a hit of god juice and I love that bc I love thinking about how they had to get creative and maybe even a lil “ends justify the means” to survive in the more fucked up lands of the east.

Love the idea of them having to finally accept that middle earth is not good for their health anymore and they gotta head to valinor finally. Western elves being weirded out by their hot topic eastern cousins while the avari are just pissed that SOME PEOPLE messed up their job SO BAD back in the day they have to EVACUATE THEIR HOMELAND OR DIE FROM EVIL POISONING.

Like I really enjoy thinking about how the vibes in lotr are “the east/south are forever beset by the evils of morgoth and sauron, their taint, and their minions and everyone’s gotta wrangle that shit constantly” while the west sits on their asses for the most part. I love thinking about how it would effect the growth of cultures and aesthetics. Love thinking about easternlings being so used to how fucked up their lands are that they see a Cool Evil Wizard Tower some maia minion of morgoth made millennia ago and they just say ‘that’s free real estate’ and build a town in/around it

#avari #meta #modern ​avari in my brain are the only goth elves in arda and it IMMEDIATELY FREAKS OUT THE ELDAR #they’re expecting quaint savages or rural folk or some shit and it’s a fantasy goth empire of freaks run by the WEAKEST MAN ALIVE #WHO’S ALSO THE STRONGEST???? WHAT? HOW??????

[arofili]

Dwarves of Middle-earth Edit Series: Appendix B

Continued from Appendix A. This section will contain information on Longbeards outside the Line of Durin, the Firebeards, the Broadbeams, the Ironfists, the Stiffbeards, the Blacklocks, the Stonefoots, and the Petty-dwarves.

~~~

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Appendix A: Dwarf-fathers, Line of Durin (work in progress) Appendix B: Misc. Longbeards, Firebeards and Broadbeams, Ironfists and Stiffbeards, Blacklocks and Stonefoots, Petty-dwarves (you are here!)

~~~

MISCELLANEOUS LONGBEARDS

Balin’s Colony ft. Balin, Óin, Ori, Flói, Lóni, Náli, Frár This story is mostly canon, but with a LOT of embellishments! We don’t know the specifics of how many dwarves went with Balin, so all the numbers here are made up. Sometimes I try to flesh out every member of a group like this, but with ~70 dwarves involved by the end, I decided just to stick to canon names. I included a special mention of dwarrowdams for Day 4 of Khazad Week :) I do try to depict female dwarves as a little bit feminine in this series, but that’s only for when they’re safe at home—dwarrowdams who travel are very practical about it, and would appear to outsiders to be male. Thus, the sisters Lóni and Náli are very masc indeed (at least, that’s my excuse for not making them more femme). That Lóni and Náli are dwarrowdams is entirely headcanon; the only thing we know about them, and about Frár, is that they died when the Bridge of Khazad-dûm was taken. Flói is referred to with he/him pronouns in the text, and the manner of his death and burial is canon, but everything about his relationship to Ori is headcanon. We don’t know if any other dwarves came to join the colony after it was established, but I thought it was entirely possible, so yeah. I don’t think any children came, though; that would be far too dangerous, and dwarves are too protective of their children to risk something like that, even if Balin promised everything was fine. Balin’s death and the subsequent battles are canon, but I added a lot of details. Óin and Ori’s argument is entirely made up, but Óin did take a group of dwarves to the West-gate, and they did find the Watcher there, and it did “take” Óin. Only four dwarves made their way back to Ori; we don’t know exactly what happened to the rest, but it’s certain that none survived, or we would’ve heard about them coming to Rivendell, or something. The details of that return journey are headcanon. We know that Ori wrote until he couldn’t write anymore, with his words falling off the page, but we don’t know exactly how he and the rest of the dwarves died, just that they did. Durin VII’s descent from Dwalin is entirely headcanon, but that is the king who is prophesied to take back Khazad-dûm at last!

~~~

FIREBEARDS AND BROADBEAMS

Notes that will probably get placed elsewhere once I do the rest of this series:

The Broadbeams and Firebeards are canonically part of a “pair” of dwarf clans descended from two dwarf-fathers that woke together. My headcanon is that while there is a fair amount of overlap, the Broadbeams live mostly in Nogrod and the Firebeards live mostly in Belegost.

I headcanon that dwarves don’t assign gender at birth or with any correlation to sex. “Male” is the most common gender (among the dwarves that we see in canon) but that has nothing to do with sex. So, a lot of male dwarves are what we might call transgender, but that term doesn’t exactly apply to them. Therefore there are a lot of same-gender dwarf marriages, and many of those can result in biological children.

Úri and Linnar ft. Úri, Linnar, Thrár, Dvalinn [tba]

Gabilgathol (Belegost) ft. Azaghâl, Thalor (OC), Sacha Bodruith, Fimli (OC) I’m doing this one very much out of order for Khazad Week 2022, Day 1: First Age & Family! We don’t know the canonical translation of Azaghâl’s name, but it’s likely related to battle and is speculated to mean “warrior,” which is what I’m going with. We don’t actually know the Khuzdul names of most dwarves, so I’m interpreting that to mean that dwarves are given names in the language of the other peoples they live around—in this case, Sindarin—but Azaghâl is a special boy who likes the Khuzdul name he earned from his own people, and since it’s not actually his inner name (which is a closely-held secret) the other dwarves are like Fine I Guess. We know from canon that Telchar made the Dragon-helm and that it ended up with Azaghâl, but Telchar is from Nogrod and Azaghâl from Belegost so I had it exchange hands that way through a marriage gift. The incident on the dwarf-road is canonical but greatly embellished. Azaghâl’s participation in the Dagor Bragollach is entirely headcanon. His participation in the Nírnaeth is almost entirely canon. The names Sacha and Fimli are both Gnomish, which is a precursor-language to Sindarin; I think they’re probably bastardizations of some names Maedhros gave to them in Sindarin. The story of the Nauglamír depicted here is a mish-mash of the version from the Silm and the version from BoLT. In BoLT, Bodruith is the King of Belegost and he goes to war against the Grey-elves over the Nauglafring (Nauglamír); in the Silm, Belegost refuses to aid the dwarves of Nogrod in this attack...so I had Bodruith (Sacha) go personally, but the other dwarves refuse. I cut out the stuff with the traitorous elves because it didn’t really fit my idea of how things went down, but I did keep Bodruith’s betrayal of the King of Nogrod. The fallout of that incident is all headcanon. The name Bodruith means something like “vengeance” so I figured that couldn’t be his original name, and had to be given posthumously, so thus I found another name for him. Fimli is my OC and everything he does is headcanon; he appears briefly in my fic “a kingly gift” :) Canon says that Belegost and Nogrod were destroyed in the War of Wrath, but looking at the maps that doesn’t seem like it *must* be true, so I have it damaged but eventually restored. Bonus: the triangle symbol I used in the title (△) is the alchemical symbol for fire :)

~~~

These are all the edits/headcanons I have shared so far - this post will be regularly updated as I share more!

Last Updated: 12/8/22

#dwarves of middle earth #peoples of arda #misc longbeards #longbeards #firebeards #broadbeams #ironfists #stiffbeards #blacklocks #stonefoots #petty dwarves #my meta #tefain nin #dome appendices #firebeards and broadbeams #ironfists and stiffbeards #blacklocks and stonefoots

[undercat-overdog]

Another day, another three bad language takes.

I think that has to do in part with how it's seen as important, even necessary, to care or "know" about the conlangs and to have opinions on them. ("Know" is in quotes because lbr, there's a lot of wildly incorrect, uninformed, and plain stupid misunderstandings and incorrect information out there.) Like you're seen as a better fan, or more respectable fan, if you talk about it.

That shouldn't be the case! You can be a huge fan, a knowledgeable fan, a well-versed fan, and not know or care about the conlangs. Unfortunately it is the case that fandom rewards bad takes about linguistics over no takes about them and so the bad takes spread.

If you want to opine about the sociolinguistics and politics around language, please read at least the Shibboleth of Feanor and after that Quendi and Eldar. And read them, not a summary you see on tumblr. (I can give more detailed recommendations if anyone's interested, but the Shib will get you what fandom goes on about and Quendi and Eldar great info about different elven group names and divisions).

If my opinion means anything (and it doesn't), you have my permission to not give a fuck about Quenya. But if you do, at least go off the actual text and not tumblr?

Edit: this was a bit intemperate but truly not aimed at any one person, rather the fandom as a whole. Which is arguably more intemperate, but I cannot count how many times I have seen takes that fundamentally misunderstand not just the conlangs, including their historical development, but the way language and languages work.

#meta #fandom #no seriously #you don't need to care about the conlangs and sociolinguistics of arda to be a fan #and i wish there wasn't this lowkey vibe that it is necessary #also for the love of christ on the fucking cross #feanor didn't lisp #aren't jokes about speech disorders just high-larious? #no really stop it with the lisp 'jokes'

[ettelenethelien]

to quote this post (basically about a conceptual golden age empire; people have already been tagging it as númenor), which got me thinking:

none of it is sustainable. it's collapsing under its own weight and the rot eating at its heart, its bottomless hunger barely kept at bay. it's a society that isn't built to last or be outlived.

***

I think that the last generation of númenor knew that it was to be the last.

they never tried to ensure a hypothetical future -- there wasn't really a new generation growing up to take their place. some scattered children, yes, but the concept of children and heirs implied that they wouldn't after all be immortal, and that was something they would not countenance. said out loud or not, the feeling went: either we live forever -- or après moi le déluge. after me comes the flood.

I think that had he not set off on his disastrous venture, ar-pharazon would have begun executing people left and right when he realised his death was near, out of mere jealousy at the fact that someone might live and enjoy life when he could not. if he could have ensured for númenor to be destroyed, he would have done so.

***

and that other fundamental instability -- of conquest... they had subjugated half the world already, and were running out of space. what sauron promised them, after all, was at least as much about new worlds for conquest as about immortality.

what they craved, in the end, was not life. it was ever-increasing power. that was why they were afraid to die -- that out of necessity it put a cap on one's ambitions. sure, you were encouraged to put hope in whatever awaited after. but you knew, deep inside, it would not be that which you had, because what you had was built on greed and on pride. you were never encouraged to put your hope in vices.

#númenor #my post #I feel like I've forgotten a point or two but never mind #tolkien #Silmarillion #silm #peoples of arda #tolkien meta

[elvcnson]

The idea that some people have of elves being prudish or bashful in terms of sex or sexual innuendo has always amused me. Legolas is thought to be anywhere from at least 2898 to 4000 years old...I assure you there are scarce few things that can shock him 

#[ ; the mun doth speak ] (ooc) #[ ; meta tbt ] #[ there are some elves in middle earth/arda that are older than the sun ] #[ they were literally alive before the sun was put into the sky ] #[ sex is not a new concept to them ]

[valacirya]

Indis appreciation post!

Disclaimer: All the canon info is taken from Morgoth's Ring and Peoples of Middle Earth. Also, this isn't a character analysis/meta. It's just a list of stuff I love (plus some headcanons) about one of my favorite characters in the legendarium.

1. She's athletic and outdoorsy. We're told that Indis is "exceedingly swift of foot" and that "she walked often alone in the fields and friths of the Valar, turning her thought to things that grow untended." When Finwe sees her, she's chilling on a mountainside. I love that she's associated with nature, specifically the wilderness. She parallels Feanor in her exploration of Aman and interest in the imperfect. Also, this is purely self-indulgent but ever since reading HoME for the first time, I've pictured Indis as tall and broad, and muscular beneath a layer of fat.

2. She doesn't let her unrequited love affect her life. "There was ever light and mirth about her." She's not the pining, languishing princess stereotype. She goes on. She doesn't let it make her bitter or depressed, and she is so restrained that only Mandos and possibly Ingwe are aware of her feelings.

3. Part of her attraction to Finwe is intellectual. In HoME we're told that his "mastery of words delighted her." Considering that Indis is also a poet/composer ("wove words into song") and that the Vanyar enjoy linguistics, it makes sense. It's also just really cute.

4. She's politically minded. Her reasoning for pronouncing 's' instead of 'th' is: "I have joined the Noldor, and I will speak as they do." This is the right thing to do to gain the respect of the Noldor and their acceptance of her authority. I also think she makes a statement with Fingolfin and Finarfin's mother-names. Arakano ("high chieftain") and Ingoldo ("the Noldo, eminent among the kindred") are not only powerful, prophetic names, they're also strikingly similar to Ingwe ("chief of chieftains") who is the High King not just of the Vanyar, but all Eldar. What a power move.

5. She's able to balance her own culture with the culture she marries into. Indis integrates into Noldorin society easily while remaining Vanyarin at her core, as is evidenced by Finwe saying that "above all her heart now yearns for the halls of Ingwe and the peace of the Vanyar." Her sons also respect and are proud of their mixed heritage; Finarfin "loved the Vanyar, his mother's people" and is said to be like them (as are Finrod and Galadriel), and Fingolfin's daughter-in-law is Vanyarin (plus the Nolofinweans have a special connection to Manwe).

6. She gets an awesome prophecy about her line. "But I say unto you that the children of Indis shall also be great, and the Tale of Arda more glorious because of their coming. And from them shall spring things so fair that no tears shall dim their beauty; in whose being the Valar, and the Kindreds both of Elves and of Men that are to come shall all have part, and in whose deeds they shall rejoice. So that, long hence when all that here is, and seemeth yet fair and impregnable, shall nonetheless have faded and passed away, the Light of Aman shall not wholly cease among the free peoples of Arda until the end." Fuck yeah.

7. Her name means "valiant woman." This is the only definition given in Morgoth's Ring, I believe. I highly prefer it over the "bride" meaning because it's a badass name and is similar to Artanis ("noble woman") and Astaldo ("the valiant"). A headcanon that I'm particularly attached to is that Indis's mother-name is Indome, meaning "will of Eru."

8. She's popular with most of the Noldor. We're told that "Finwe, King of the Noldor, wedded Indis, sister of Ingwe; and the Vanyar and Noldor for the most part rejoiced." The majority of the Noldor also follow Fingolfin and Finarfin instead of Feanor.

9. She's friends with Nerdanel. HoME states that Nerdanel went to "abide with Indis, whom she had ever esteemed."

10. She gets pissed off at Finwe when he sides with Feanor. So much so that he thinks she won't want to see him if he's re-embodied. I know this is from his perspective but I'm inclined to agree. [However, this is still very presumptive of him, and his comment that "Indis parted from me without death" is super shitty. Eugh.]

11. She's close to her kids. Finarfin takes after her, Fingolfin passes on the name she gave him, Findis lives with her, Lalwen goes by the name she gave her. Finwe also says that "she hath dear children to comfort her."

So there we have it! What little info we get about Indis is pretty awesome. And this is just a list; I could write a whole essay on her fortitude and unconventionality and my numerous headcanons about her.

#indis

[lesbiansforboromir]

Why do you think Aragorn as accepted as a King? They don't have blood tests to confirm his identity and he is not even from Gondor (was probally born here, but not raised)

Oh no Aragorn was not born in Gondor, canonically speaking he was born in the north amongst the northern dunadain and that is his cultural heritage. And not only that, Aragorn's claim to the throne is legally shakey at BEST. His only claim to the line of Meneldil (original King of Gondor after Anarion and Elendil's deaths) is through a female line, which used to be an accepted path to kingship in Numenor, but was since entirely discarded by both Gondor AND Arnor (so not even Aragorn's own direct ancestors agreed with letting women rule kingdoms) And a previous legal ruling on this PRECISE ISSUE decreed that Aragorn's ancestor DID NOT have a right to Gondor's throne. So yes it's a good question isn't it? There are two answers!

#1 Gondor is still a partial if not full theocracy. This is one of those aspects of the book that doesnt really make sense unless you understand all the character's actions through the lense of catholicism and religious faith in general. Aragorn is 'Estel' or 'hope', but when people say 'hope' in Middle-earth what they mean is faith etc.

In lotr meta-logic the divine right to rule is a real thing that actually exists, god (Eru) literally wants Aragorn to be king. The characters within the story are aware of this to varying degrees, Boromir being one of the few characters who properly disregards this and wishes to view Aragorn's claim on it's own merit. Even Denethor knows and understands that Aragorn is chosen by god, and he's very bitter and angry about it! (good for him). But in general, all other characters including all Gondorian lords are 'faithful' or 'elendili', and within this religion the only people who could be called 'priests', who can bridge the divide between man and god, are their Kings. So, religiously, if Aragorn IS sent by god to rule them, then they would be committing a kind of heresy to refuse him. And remember, god literally exists in Arda canonically and so therefore does sin and heresy, not just in a moral way but also in a literal like... fact of nature kind of way.

So when Aragorn arrives in Pelargir with an army of ghosts it gives Lord Angbor FAITH in him. When Gandalf, an angel literally doing god's will, is his friend and expressly supports his claim the other lords of Gondor also are inspired to have faith in him. Aragorn spends a good deal of time after the siege of minas tirith ticking divine checklists for 'guy who should be king', he is not making a legal argument for his right to the Gondorian throne, he is making a religious argument for his right to rule over the entire population of 'the faithful' which includes Gondor AND Arnor, destroyed or not.

There WOULD be discussion though! Not everyone in Gondor is dunadain and not everyone is faithful in the way that the dunadain are faithful. Culturally the northern and southern dunadain have been seperated for 3000 years and a lot of people would have issues with being ruled by someone so other to them, even if he had lived among them for 10 years (though that does help). But in the end the lords of gondor are almost all dunadain and they all have to abide by the tenets of their faith, or '''fall''' and become '''lesser men''' than even the rohirrim (terrible I know 🙄) so they really had no choice but to support Aragorn in the end.

However, reason #2

Minas Tirith's armies were absolutely decimated after a weeks long siege and war before that, and what few soldiers were left were exhausted and barely functioning. Aragorn arrived at their gates and broke the siege with a full army who'd only done ONE fight and told everyone he was king of Gondor. What was Imrahil gonna do, say no?

#chats #Anonymous #aragorn #erran vs tolkien

[thegreatzombieartisan]

Rings of Power + Tolkien Fusion Meta

Elvish Love, Sex, and the Single Maia

“Elves only love and marry once.”

Yeah, the Laws and Customs of the Eldar (Elves) aren’t this clear-cut. Foremost, Elves reflect Tolkien’s devout Catholic ideal including his strongly held belief in the dangers of unbridled sexuality. Also, Tolkienverse runs on morality and mysticism, not science.

Update: After performing direct research and analysis on Tolkien’s LACE text, I’ve come to new conclusions. I’ve highlighted updates in this post in blue. Otherwise the rest remains aligns and unchanged.

For Elves love =/= marriage. Most unions are love matches but at . However, Tolkien did write about Elves who love yet never wed à la courtly love. Elves that love with our reciprocity, even when married. Moreover, of lusty Elf men who wed Elf maidens with dubious consent gained from questionable means.

But sex complicates things. Elves are monogamous. And it's not just culturally.

Elf sex = marriage = binding. Elf marriage = intent + sex or binding of hröa/body and fëa/spirit. Since Elves are inherently bound to Arda’s fate through their fëa/spirit, marriages are thus eternal.

Most couples have children early in marriage and with each child, their sex drive would diminish. It infers that sex (at least cultural) is viewed as being primarily purposed for begetting of children. Based on that, though not explicitly stated in text, it’s also inferred that “real” sex, that kind that led to bringing, would be was PIV (pen-in-vagina). Perhaps a consolation price strong incentive for eternal monogamy, Elf sex is intensely pleasurable.

For Elves, choosing the right partner critical. Divorce doesn’t exist. More accurately, divorce can’t exist because Elves can’t unfuck-bind themselves. But the Valar, spirit stewards of Arda who favor the Elves, are capable. Otherwise an unhappy Elf couple could lead separate lives, and maybe love others, but not remarry.

Can widowed Elves remarry? In the uncommon event an Elf dies, its spirit is summoned to the Halls of Mandos (aka purgatory). After an unspecified amount of time, the Valar will typically reincarnate them. During this Time of Waiting, both dead and living Elf spouse remain bonded. Upon reincarnation, the formerly dead spouse returns home like returning from a very long trip to the store for bread.

As it stands, the Valar will unbind a widowed Elf’s marriage in these rare events: the dead spouse refuses the summons to Mandos (usually evil Elves), eschews reincarnation like Míriel (Celebrimbor’s great-grandma), or denied the opportunity like Feanor aka “Mr. Fuck the Morgoth, Valar, and Teleri Elves.”

Therefore, in RoP, even if Celeborn were indeed dead, he and Galadriel are still bonded. But look, the way she said, “And you? My king?” sounded thisclose to RISKING IT ALL for power and sitting on Halbrand’s handsome face for eternity.

Asking for a friend: Can Maiar and Elves “marry”? Yes, with ample space for speculation and theory

The only canon union between a Maia and Child of Iluvatar (Elves and Men) was Melian and High-King Thingol. They begot Luthien, a powerful Elf and fairest Maiden ever. She even once beat Sauron in a duel.

Maiar are disembodied Eälar or spirits that contrasted with fëar/spirits of Elves and Men. Halbrand is Sauron’s fana/physical form he can change like clothes. But far as an Maia-Elf marriage aka sexy times goes, it’s unclear if it’s inferred binding is like Elven marriage because begetting children requires mutual intention to impart each parent’s spirit to the child. But either way, it doesn’t provoke any mystical moral cockblocking.

Well, one thing is clear: Melian literally fucked around, begot Luthien, and found out such activity had a side effect. She became permanently bonded to her fana. Donning a new fana requires the death of the bonded fana. To note, even though Melian bonded to an Elven fana, she retained her Maia spirit class.

What if Thingol had an Elven wife in the Halls of Mandos? Understand that Elves live on Middle-Earth to guide Men toward a righteous path. Elves and Maiar cucking dead Elf spouses certainly defies Tolkien’s “ideal devout Catholic” behavior. Assuredly he’d invent some mystical punishment to reenforce monogamy. Perhaps even Valar intervention but if they let Morgoth and Sauron run wild, I doubt it. But without precedence, it can only be speculated.

But renegade Maiar like Melian and Sauron do not give a FUCK nor need the Valar’s approval. If they want to fuck elves, THEY WILL FUCK ELVES.

Thus, irrespective of likelihood, conscience, or wisdom, no laws bar love and/or sex between Galadriel and Sauron. Platonic besties, chaste courtly love, or cucking Celeborn to the end of Arda - do you, you crazy kids. Since she is still married to, the closet thing to binding with Sauron would be with a 3rd party conduit and magic. Like a blood oath. Or rings of power (teehee).

Many challenges exist to a productive Galadriel and Sauron union beyond the metaphysical. And the most awkward would follow her spirit husband’s reincarnation. Imagine Celeborn discovering Morgoth’s first lieutenant has been railing his wife for centuries (now that’s a good fanfic prompt).

Thank you for reading! Your likes and reblogs are appreciated. Got feedback?

What did you like? Got theories or insights to share?

Disagree? I love good faith debate and sparring!

Something not quite making sense? Got feedback on readability?

Spot an inaccuracy? Hey, Tolkien's work is complex. Drop it in comments or DM.

#tolkien #saurondriel #theory

[legitimatesatanspawn]

Could you please tell me where Morgoth is during The Lord Of The Rings? (Is he alive?)

I'm gonna answer this one first because it's the easiest:

Morgoth is alive and not on the world although his evil power still is infused in the world and his malicious lies still plague countless minds.

The First Age ended when he was tossed into space and cast out, far from the world he coveted and the Flame of Creation he sought. Beyond Time as well. He's unable to return as long as the Valar and the Sun and Moon and the Evening Star continue to sail around the world. What Morgoth is up to we don't know - or at least it is not written by any being living in the world. The Valar believe existence beyond Ea - the universe beyond the world Arda - is empty and lifeless but it is suggested that the original Song of Creation echoed out and created more than just the world. And Eru- who is God - saw that it was good even as twisted as the Song was by Morgoth - then Melkor - in his attempts to change the Song into something he thought was better.

(There's always That One Person in band practice who thinks they're funny, I swear.)

The world being made with song but still needing to be shaped by hand is an incredibly fascinating image. Because the Song wasn't just Making the world but the instructions of the world itself. In a way it was a prophecy that every angel that existed then took part in shaping.

The changes, the imperfections, the clashes... it made the Song better even if it wasn't perfect anymore. But because he kept trying to claim the world and make it his, Morgoth was The Enemy and all his works were cruelty and corruptions of good things.

There's a prophecy of what is functionally Ragnarok where the Final Battle will be fought, the ships of the Sun and Moon crash to the planet, and the Silmarils will break open and whatever Feanor made of them will become known. (Personally it always sounded like they're talking about nuclear detonation as part of the Doomsday Apocalypse.)

But part of that prophecy is that Morgoth will return.

Sauron's dead. Saruman is either sort-of dead or cursed to wander the world as a spirit forever. The orcs all retreated into dark unseen places, likely deep within the mountains - which funny enough is also where the Dwarves are implied to be hiding out at. If there's any Elves still alive in the world they don't make themselves known and same with the Hobbits but they are implied to be still around… just hard to see. Maybe Hobbits have become folklore takes of Brownies or Leprechauns or other fae things, much in the same way that the meta lore suggest that stories of Elves gradually became tales of the Fairies Courts.

Our world, by the lore of the Red Book of Westmarch from which the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings were "translated" from, is the modern version of Middle Earth. We live in what is likely still the Fourth Age. Sauron's defeat heralded the end of the Third Age two/three years later. The World began an untold length of time before the First Age, which lasted about 590 years (by their calendar). The Second lasted 3441 years, and the Third ended after 3021 when Bilbo and Frodo sailed to Valinor.

Whether they survived the sailing (remember: Bilbo was Old AF when they set sail with the Elves and Gandalf) and lived there in some place on Aman or on the small island of Tol Eressea isn't clear. While people who were neither Ainur (Valar/Maiar) or Elves were no longer allowed there after Numenor's Biggest Screwup, exceptions can be made and Bilbo had no idea he bore the One Ring and it was through him and Frodo (and Sam but he stayed in the Shire) who were able to keep the Ring from Sauron's hands.

But some day in our future, Morgoth will return. In what form we don't know nor when or how. He will be fought and finally be completely defeated, although there's some variations where it is said that if humans choose to side with him then all will be lost. But if defeated then the lost lands will rise back above the sea (Beleriand but maybe also Numenor). Humans and the angelic beings alike (the Maiar and the Valar as a whole) will sing a new Song of Creation before God Himself and remake the world anew.

If it's not super obvious, the series is a blending of various myths and cultural ideas as well as Catholic teachings. So there's a lot of heavy handed stuff regarding God and morality. And a lot of questions raised and worried over by not only the fans but Tolkien himself.

#the silmarillion #the lord of the rings #morgoth #melkor #valar #maiar #lore dump #meta lore #jrr tolkien #frodo baggins #bilbo baggins