#the most “it gets worse before it gets better” storyline for batman i have EVER seen
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with all this gotham war stuff (most recently the comic sc you posted on your twt with jason and bruce), can u explain what is actually going on? like, i’m not that far so i haven’t read it, but… like is it actually bruce saying all that stuff about the kids? or is it this zur person people keep talking about?
oh my friend, it's crazy around here, but i will try my best to explain it!
A GUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE HELL IS HAPPENING TO BATMAN IN GOTHAM WAR:
firstly, the comic reading list to catch up with gotham war is: as of 01/10/23 (the ones in italics are core issues to the story)
for some background on what happens leading up to gotham war:
Batman (2016) #125-136
(Optional) Knight Terrors: Batman
(Optional) Knight Terrors: Catwoman
and then the actual gotham war story:
Batman/Catwoman: The Gotham War - Battle Lines
Batman (2016) #137
Catwoman (2018) #57
Batman/Catwoman: The Gotham War - Red Hood #1
this is everything that is out right now, but from the third of october to halloween we will also be getting: Batman #138, Catwoman #58, Gotham War: Red Hood #2, Batman/Catwoman: The Gotham War - Scorched Earth.
secondly... who is Zur En Arrh.
Zur En Arrh taking over Bruce, Batman (2016) #126
zur en arrh, in the simplest way of explaining, is this alter ego/personality (it's unclear) bruce created for himself should batman (bruce wayne) ever be psychologically compromised or brainwashed. it's not him, but a more sadistic and crueler person that is the "ultimate batman" who doesn't care about anyone or anything but getting the mission done.
during Batman #125-130, zur takes over the role of batman because bruce was losing very badly to the robot Failsafe (which is zur's own creation, that bruce has no memory of making). after getting vaporised by failsafe and sent travelling through dozens of alternate universes, losing his hand and fighting a flying shark (Batman #131-135), bruce returns to gotham incredibly mentally unstable.
During a peaceful dinner with his family, Bruce suddenly imagines the entire world on fire, Batman (2016) #136.
during everything, bruce managed to mentally fight back and kind of... merge their ideals together in order to survive and win in the moment.
and then successfully trapping failsafe back into his mind where he can no longer take over!
Bruce uses some sort of mental technique to lock Zur away in his mind, Batman (2016) #136.
except he didn't succeed! at all!
you see, when travelling through all those universes, bruce somehow brought back every single version of zur en arrh with him. now all of then combined, plus his already deteriorating and weak mental health from the last few years, bruce is currently operating under the impression that he's locked zur away, when he actually hasn't.
zur is the one partly, or even entirely, in control. right now, he's just pretending to stay locked away so bruce continues to do what he thinks is 'right' despite them being incredibly out of character for the run.
During his eight week coma, Bruce sees Zur 'locked away' and he is, apparently, not alone, Gotham War: Battle Lines (2023)
an example is when zur referred to robin as batman's solider, bruce mentally fought back to make it clear that tim was his son. but then, a few issues later, bruce refers to his children as his soldiers and that they've all betrayed him, implying that zur has always had control and isn't locked away.
Bruce and Zur get into a fight inside his mind about Robin [Tim Drake], Batman (2016) #127
so yeah, zur is not bruce! they're both batman, but zur en arrh is like his somehow unimaginably even worse twin. if you're interested more in him, i would suggest giving his character history a read! be warned it gets changed A LOT and is definitely not everyone's cup of tea (personally i hate him and need him shelved for another forty years).
now that that's all done and explained, the current state of gotham war is Bruce (thinks he's okay) fighting everyone else (except Damian) because in his (Zur's) point of view, they're all against the mission and therefore are now his enemies (he's lost his mind). totally not convoluted.
to answer your original question, yes, this is all bruce saying and doing these things but he is being HEAVILY influenced by Zur. we can't tell for certain how much of this is bruce and how much is zur, but we can definitely prove zur is partially or completely controlling him again.
even jason points it out after bruce implants that fear toxin chip into him in Batman (2016) #138:
like we can see the intention is to keep jason out of this, because compared to everyone else, jason was the most directly opposed to bruce. but zur is twisting how this concern gets expressed, since forcing jason into feeling fear everytime he gets an adrenaline rush is hardly the reformation bruce is usually encouraging. the other batfam members also talk about how uncharacteristically violent bruce is being.
"He's out of control." / "He's gone [In more ways than one.]" Batman (2016) #137
as the story progresses we see more and more of zur replace bruce, but because he can't have bruce trying to stop him again, zur is playing along and convincing bruce he's locked away. so really, bruce is at war with not only his entire family, but also his own mind. just another average tuesday for batman. he's being tricked and is unknowingly doing exactly what he was trying to prevent.
to understand what the actual war in gotham war is, give the comics listed above a read! if you find the story boring/ridiculous/stupid, don't worry, it is! the social commentary leaves a lot to be desired, as does most of the characters writings (especially selina's).
bruce and his one sided battle with zur is sort of an overarching story happening alongside it (along with a bunch of other ongoings. i don't even understand how detective comics and batman and robin are going to tie into this once it starts up again).
sorry the answer isn't a simple one, but unfortunately nothing is ever simple with bruce. also apologies in advance if any of the future gotham war comics come out and completely debunk all of this! who knows what will happen in this dramatic family drama.
#bruce wayne#gotham war#dc meta#saki anons#saki comic talks#i have such a toxic relationship with this run#i have nothing but complaints and hate for it#but its so terrible i cant wait to see how it all crash and burns#the most “it gets worse before it gets better” storyline for batman i have EVER seen
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Bruce as a father across the multiverse 🔥
I'm going to put aside Bruce's that don't get children (which are. most of the ones coming to mind rn ngl xD), even if I think I could make a compelling argument for a few of those being primed to be better parents than comics!Bruce -like gotham!Bruce or nolanverse!Bruce lol.
honestly, other than those from animated versions, like yj!Bruce or gotham knights(cw)!Bruce (we don't see him that much because the show is NOT a batman show, but both him and the kids around seem more well-adjusted xD), or dcau!Bruce which I haven't seen in a long time but was overall alright, from what I remember... my mind is focused on the different versions of Bruce we see in the main continuity. aka the one whose fatherhood we see been explored.
first, there's pre-crisis/earth-one!Bruce. I'm less familiar with Bruce, especially with that particular Bruce-Dick dynamic (though what I've seen is complex and less defined than father-and-son. they call each other partners, brothers, and yes, they have a discussion about the more parental aspects of their relationship while Bruce is in a custody battle with earth-one!Jason). but I have read everything there is to this version of Jason and Bruce and it's... well, the most properly fatherly we ever see Bruce, probably? it's sweet. it's hardly perfect or straightforward (this Jason already served as a counterpoint to Bruce, in a much calmer way), and it could be easy to point out questionable aspects, I'm sure -but maybe because I inevitably compare it to the other versions, he comes out shining xD. he's incredibly flaky with women though, I don't know why they put up with him lol.
then there's post-crisis/new earth!Bruce. now this is the bitch I'm most familiar with xDD. and honestly, yeah, I would call him a shitty father figure. increasingly worsening with time, with things taking a nosedive after Jason's death, but he also pulled Some Shit with Dick or Jason (although with the later he apologised and recognised his mistakes once!!! woah).
what I will say for new earth!Bruce is that the concept of BatfamilyTM, while present, was much less conventional than it is right now. while I wouldn't defend any of the shit he pulled, I can acknowledge it was written with more attention to characterization, to the dynamics involved, and in a less... simplified and stereotypical way, iykwim? the ways new earth!Bruce screws up as a father/authority figure feel like they are meant to inform the character, at least most of the time. I feel like I'm watching a deeply troubled man stuck in his childhood trauma who arguably should never have taken a caretaker role over fellow troubled kids, who acts in controlling and damaging ways because of his own issues and might need to hit rock bottom before he could even think to really do better. but there's a sense that all this is in sync with the story, with the path it and his character follows, iykwim.
then there's post-reboot/prime earth!Bruce. current Bruce. mister "I'll beat Dick into submission to accept an incredibly dangerous job after he's already going through the worst time of his life". mister "I'll beat up Jason so badly he won't be able to hold a gun without his hand trembling a month later". mister "I'll brainwash my son and leave him defenseless because he once made choices I disagreed with and he might do them again". mister "I'll never face any consequences for this for longer than 5 pages, if that, and nothing will change no matter what."
the thing about this one is that he suffers the flaws inherent to prime earth: objectively worse writing that veers towards conventionality (if you try to push a more conventional father-kids view of the Batfamily, Bruce's abusive actions read much, much worse), and chronic inhability to commit to anything which leaves writers scrambling to return to a more comfortable status quo, while recycling storylines in a way that makes this come accross as a consistent, undeniable pattern. that, plus the framing of these actions (gotham war pending, but I'm not getting my hopes up) as Bruce-the-stern-Patriarch who must control these unruly kids is. hmmmmmmmm.
I'm not saying that new earth!Bruce didn't suffer some of that but... it does feel different to me because the kid and not so kid bats got to grow and evolve, if that makes sense? and to do it past Bruce. while in prime earth, everything feels in a state of arrested development. stagnant. and thus, unchangeable, unmoving. not all the "movement" in new earth was good or forward but it's a whole other beast, basically. and things now feel like they're more tied to Bruce, like a lot if not all the other bonds go *through him*? maybe I'm being ungenerous: I haven't read a lot of prime earth (and I'm not gonna xD), but that's the impression I'm left with after what I have read.
and all of those factors contribute to making current!Bruce such a despicable figure to me. if we crossed paths one of us would walk away a few appendages down xDD
Send Me a 🔥+ a Topic, and I’ll Tell You My Honest Opinion About It
#replies#talking to the void#i'm not The Expert in any of these continuities. but I have read enough to feel that I can speak about the instances i HAVE read#so there's that#my thoughts#dc#dc thoughts#bruce wayne
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Of creature of the woods give me your wisdom. I really want to read batman comics but I have no clue where to start it's so overwhelming *dies*
omg hiii <333
super sorry for how late this is, i been busy all day !!!! im beyond honoured you thought of me to come to for Batman recs !! but i MUST give credits to my friend instead because their list is how I got into Batman comics!!
this !! is a great Batman reading list for a general use/reference! i know it can be super intimidating at first but you are SO brave and can do it! I promise it gets easier once you start getting into the swing of things! North did a great job in picking the comic issues/arcs so you can get a variety of stories and i can 1000% vouch for their recs!! (i think my personal favourite is Dark Knight, Dark City fyi!!)
another list from them :)
admittedly, I skip around in comics A LOT and just take a glance at a wiki to make sure im a starting a mini story arc in the right spot/it's just a standalone. but north's lists helped me when I was first getting into comics to make it a little less scary and i still look at it for a general use/remember my favourites! if you're just starting to read Batman comics, i cannot recommend them enough !!! :33
another friend of mine has this rec list too and some great for Batman Black and White recs too:
part 1, part 2, part 3
Matty's are great if you're looking for other adventures/different little stories and examples in how writers use the character! take a peek and see what catches your eye :)
AND a quick reminder (as always) to be mindful consuming any media but especially comics! and especially Batman related ones! Batman is a wonderful character and when written correctly, he is a symbol of unwavering compassion. BUT unfortunately the comic book world is a breeding ground for fascist, racist, and antisemitic storylines. be thoughtful in what you're reading and use your head to recognize signs of when the writer is using comics and these characters to push their disgusting propaganda.
three widely known examples are Grant Morrison, Frank Miller, and The Court of The Owls:
Morrison is one of the most known writers for modern-ish Batman. however they played a large hand in retconning Talia al Ghul's character and being a racist piece of shit so everyday i imagine their head blowing up
Frank Miller who's just a straight up fascist. He's largely praised for The Dark Knight Returns trilogy which can be avoided entirely (and should be, imo). you may have Batman: Year One get recommended which, again, i think is unnecessary (especially for just starting out). but if you're going to read it, be mindful of the writer.
(i'm unsure of how much you do or don't know – but if you want to see a short leadup to Bruce being Batman; I'd recommend The Man Who Falls (which is written by the iconic Dennis O'Neil) instead! Batman's origins has many stories and factors and this combines a lot of them into a nice, tidy story while adding a few other elements i like :))
and Scott Snyder's Court of the Owls entire arc is one of the worse cases i can think of; to where i knew of it before i ever touched a comic. Hallie did a wonderful explanation talking about it here and i recommend everyone to read it. even if you already have, refresh yourself and read it again.
If you're just getting into Batman comics i know that can seem like a lot to take in! But this is just to give a warning and reminder that comics are an artform that can and have been used as a propaganda and political piece. For better (police abolishment, his care and belief all life is precious/deserves to be saved/the belief and hope anyone can change for the better) and for the worse (racism, anti-semitism, police militarization).
I hope my friends lists helped in narrowing down where to start and you fall in love with this character too :) feel free to dm me or ask for my discord if you ever want to talk on them/have any questions!!! <3
#one of these days im going to start a new series where i keep track of what i have and havent read and my general thoughts#because after so many comics they kinda blur together in specific arcs and recommendations/nuances#more for myself to keep track but anon u might just gave me a little personal side project eheeye#i hope my post didn't scare you off/make things more confusing! i promise reading them gets easier after developing the feel for it and#finding your own reading pattern and preferences! rather it be skipping around to bulk reading one writer to get a feel how they#characterize bruce to anything. youre gonna be okay and it isnt that scary after just jumping in!#i am holding ur hand and pulling u into the depths of bat-hell <3#also big mwah to my mutuals for making the lists. i appreciate u guys for it still (and the ones i didnt link!) for taking me in and being#super supportive and welcoming when i first got into comics 💞💞💞💞#company in the crypt#crypt recs#<- babe wake up new ransom tag !
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Why don't you like Maribat? Why do you think it's a spite or salt ship?
This is presumably because of my Adrigaminette post or the whole Maribat being on the ship list thing.
Quick disclaimer: if you read/ship/write/like Maribat, cool! This is not an attack. This is me answering why I, personally, do not like it. It’s tagged anti, and salt, so it should be filtered. Please don’t harass me over it.
Another note before we start: a lot of what I’m about to write is based on what I’ve read, fic wise or meta, and I blocked off the Maribat tag and fandom a long time ago. It may have changed over there-I doubt it, and I have zero desire to go and look-but this is based on what I’ve seen and read about.
There are, principally, three reasons I can’t stand Maribat, why I think it’s a spite/salt ship.
1). I don’t like Damian Wayne.
2). I don’t like how Damian and the DCU are written in Maribat.
3). Maribat is a mutated salt fic.
If you want to see my reasons why, the rest is under the read more.
1). I don’t like Damian Wayne.
Damian’s not just my least favorite Robin, ranking behind any of the others who have born the name. He’s my least favorite Batfam sidekick overall.
Part of this is his introduction, where he’s a violent, murderous, arrogant, entitled, snotty little brat of a thug. Lest we forget, one of his first acts is to go out, kill a guy, cut off his head, stuff a grenade into the decapitated head’s mouth, and try to blow up Tim. This is his introduction! There are a number of other occasions, including how he treats Jon, his best friend, and the rest of his siblings.
Another part is that he believes that he deserves to be Robin simply because he’s Bruce’s son, and therefore has the blood right to be Robin, to become Batman, and damn anyone else, who are all pretenders. Doesn’t matter that those characters might have a right to become Robin, or the future Batman, he’s the bio son, he deserves it!
Additionally, Damian feels.....not unnecessary, but repetitive, in his actions/characterization. There are other characters who can perform pretty much the same way for whatever storyline is necessary, without including Damian.
Trained by an abusive family to be the best, as an assassin and warrior? Cassandra.
A killer who breaks the main rule of his mentor, which causes tension and strain in the family? Jason.
Incredibly intelligent and talented? Tim.
Damian isn’t unique in what he does, and while that can make him an interesting character, it can also make the focus on him unnecessary.
As well, so much of Damian’s actions and motivations feels like he gets away with stuff, in-universe, because he’s Bruce’s biological son, and so Bruce gives him too much slack, and out-universe, because the writers let him/the fans will defend him. He gets woobified, or leather pantsed. Which leads to:
2). I don’t like how Damian and the DCU are written for Maribat.
For all his (numerous) faults, when written well, Damian can be an interesting character. For example: How does he deal with being deeply insecure? By putting on a mask of arrogance and overconfidence.
Some more examples: How does Damian act like an actual child, when he’s never had a childhood? How can he be a hero, if he’s been trained to be a killer? Can he ever catch up to his siblings, or will he feel like they’re always better than him?
Damian’s sense of being Batman’s son, of being the heir to the Cowl, slams right up against the idea of the Batfam: that there are people who have just as much of a right to call Batman their father/father figure, people who are just as talented and skilled and capable as Damian himself is, if not more. Watching Damian develop, when he’s written right, is actually enjoyable; mainly because when it’s done right, it shows Damian actually progressing and growing, becoming more of a person, with friends and interests. Most times, seeing Damian with his pets can be adorable, same with when he hangs out with Jon.
Is he still a brat? Still sometimes a bit too much of a Demon, an al-Ghul? Yes, but that’s always going to be part of him, and as long as he’s shown to try and grow, or gets called out on that, it’s less of an issue (There’s a completely different rant to be written about how DC likes to chuck character development or backstory into the trash when it suits them for a new run. Damian gets hit with this, as does Tim, or they get handed the idiot/conflict ball, but not the space for it).
Maribat hurls this all out the window. Damian’s bad traits are all “fixed” offscreen-he’s developed, matured, gotten better, whatever you want to call it. It’s basically a writer’s hand wave to make Damian into the character who will be the lead of the story, perfectly suited for his main role of being Marinette’s boyfriend and utterly devoted to her every whim and will. He’s enchanted by her at first glimpse, and defends her against everyone who hates her, because no one can understand her like he can!
Uh, what? This is not Damian Wayne. Even at his best, he’s no broody boy, pulled from his “dark path” by the love of a gentle girl. He’s a Jerk with a Heart of Gold-emphasis on the Jerk. There’s a reason his nickname usually involves “Demon.” Is Damian trying to get better? Yes. But even then, he’s not the type to immediately fall in love. He takes a while to warm up to people, for them to earn his trust, and Marinette would not be like that?
Let’s say that Robin is in Paris for a case, he runs into Ladybug and Chat, and after they explains what’s going on, Robin gives them a stare over his mask, and goes “TT! What a worthless hero, I would have caught him already.” LB and Chat would probably want to deck him, and that’s before he keeps talking.
Same with if Damian transfers to the class, or they meet on a field trip to Gotham. Damian’s not gonna care about some random French teenagers on a tour, or if he was transferred he’s gonna be trying to figure out why his father sent him to Paris, and be focused on the mission, not making friends.
Of all of the Robins, the ones that would be the most likely to capture Marinette’s interest would be Dick or Tim, not Damian. He would remind her too much of Chloe, as Damian, and as Robin, he would be dismissive of Ladybug’s abilities, which would absolutely piss her, and Chat Noir, off.
In characters that aren’t Damian, no one seems to be written properly over in Maribatland. One huge example is that Marinette is so beloved, so pure, that she can make any character fall in love with her, and reform by her pure goodness, including a fic where the Joker-THE JOKER!-becomes her “Uncle J,” and pranks Lila on her behalf.
Uh-huh. Sure. Completely and totally something that one of the biggest, most sadistic twisted, notorious villains in pop culture would do. Maribat winds up worshipping the ground that Marinette walks on, cause she’s “Teh best evar!”
Which then leads to my third and final point:
3). The whole Maribat concept is a mutated salt fic.
Most of the themes you’ll find in Maribat? You will find in nearly every salt fic.
Maybe my biggest issue with the whole Maribat idea is that it doesn’t feel like a proper crossover, which, at their best, explore how characters from one universe and their rules would interact with characters from another universe, and the rules of that one. Putting ML and DC together is a rich opportunity to play with concepts in both worlds!
And yet, it’s mainly used to bash ML characters who the writers despise, predominantly Adrien, Alya, and Lila, with members of the class thrown in depending on feeling, and potentially even Marinette’s parents! The only “good” ML characters are the ones who are on Marinette’s side, usually Luka, Kagami, a Chloe who for some reason has been redeemed and is now Marinette’s best friend, and whatever members of the class the writer decides to throw in there.
You’ll notice it’s not called “MiracuBat”, or LadyBat and Bat Noir-it’s MariBat. It’s meant as a focus on Marinette, making her-the hero of the Miraculous Ladybug franchise, someone in-story in story who is incredibly smart and talented and the leader of her team, future Guardian-even more awesome.....by beating down everyone else around her.
Marinette is simultaneously treated as an beaten-up, beaten-down walked-on carpet, and the best person to ever exist ever, go who only needs a group of new, different, better people to recognize that and save her from the clutches of those greedy and ungrateful assholes! That doesn’t include the fics where she’s the unknown child of a superhero or supervillain, making her even more special.
It’s Chameleon salt, class salt, with pointy ears and a cape on.
Some specific examples.
Adrien: Adrien is a spineless doormat who prioritizes Lila over Marinette, or an entitled bastard sexual harasser, only fixated on Ladybug, or even both. Sometimes it’ll get worse, as Adrien will threaten or abandon Marinette if she steps off of his “high road,” and Chat will be a budding rapist, stalking or capturing Marinette after he’s learned she’s Ladybug, while ignoring her prior to that. He will, of course, have his ring stripped and handed off to Damian, who is the “true” soul of Destruction and so therefore a “perfect match” to Marinette’s Creation soul. Occasionally it will be Jason, or Tim, or Dick, but the key thing is that it’s not Adrien!
While Damian’s issues are magically fixed, Adrien gets no such courtesy. Adrien has been abused, just like Damian, and while Damian’s abuse is more extensive and extreme, abuse is abuse. If anything, if Damian met Adrien, he would probably see another abused kid, and want to be his friend/have his “adopt stray person!” Instincts go off. I can much more imagine Damian dragging a bewildered Adrien into the Batcave and yelling “Father I’ve found another one for you to adopt!” than I can Damian immediately hating Adrien, or Chat, simply for breathing.
We never see Clark taking Adrien under his wing, or Bruce, or any of the other Batfam; nor any of the other Justice Leaguers. We never see Selina try to fight Bruce over the kid, because he’s cat-themed, and Selina can train him, this one’s hers Bat, get off!
Adrien’s never treated as a kid, or given actual development. A major complaint among salters is that Adrien is treated as perfect and never develops, and in fic, rather than developing him, Adrien either remains static, with his flaws narratively exploded, or is developed negatively. He’s there to be beaten up on and punished by the writers, if not actually physically beaten up by characters in the fic.
Alya: the not-so-good friend, the cheap excuse for a journalist, the awful person who abandons Marinette for Lila and her “connections.” Never mind that Alya was Marinette’s friend from the beginning, or that Marinette’s chosen her multiple times for a Miraculous. One instance of questioning Marinette about Lila, and Alya’s a backstabbing bitch.
Maribat treats Alya as neglectful, bossy, domineering and submissive at the same time to Marinette and Lila respectively, and as a journalist, the worst of the worst. She’s played as a two-bit paparazzo, and once again, the DCU is used to punish her. We don’t see Alya get mentored by Lois or Clark-indeed, if they notice her, it’s with disdain or disappointment. Often, they’re crushing her under their heel, calling her not only a bad journalist, but a bad friend/person. This forgetting, of course, that Alya runs her blog as a hobby so far, she’s only a teenager, and that she’s had Marinette’s back against Chloe and Lila.
The Class: the dupes or allies as needed. Class salt levels depend on what the writer needs. If they’re pro-class, they’re all on Marinette’s side, aside from Alya Adrien and Lila. Chloe, for some ungodly reason, is “redeemed” nigh instantaneously, and often will become Marinette’s best friend, if that isn’t Kagami already. Kagami will drop Adrien like a wet tissue, never trying to reconcile him with the clas, or encourage him to stand up for himself, or if she does, Adrien, of course, will not listen.
If the writer is anti-class, whoo boy. Openly mentally, emotionally, physically abusive to Marinette, the worst gang of people you would ever have the displeasure of meeting, they all need to be in Arkham.
We never see any of the class make friends with the Batfam, the Titans, Young Justice-unless they’re on Marinette’s side, of course. There’s no Alix stopping Selina at the Louvre, for instance, or Max hanging out with Babs. It’s all based on how Marinette is treated as to whether or not the class is portrayed as being worse than the worst of the Rogues Gallery.
Wrapping it all up, Maribat has made me dislike the entire concept of a DC/ML crossover.
Even if someone had written an non-salt, in-character crossover, I don’t know if I would read it, simply because the well has been that poisoned.
#anti maribat#anti maridami#anti daminette#maribat salt#daminette salt#maridami salt#anti damian wayne#Damian Wayne salt#ml fandom salt#anonymous#ask answered#long post
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MOONLIGHT MASK
Starman, aka Super Giant, was Japan’s answer to Superman, appearing in theaters in a 9 films between 1957 and 1959. He was also Japan’s first superhero on film.
During that time, Japan’s answer to Batman or The Shadow appeared on Japanese television. Gekko Kamen, aka Moonlight Mask in English (also Moon Mask Rider), was the very first tokusatsu, live-action superhero on Japanese television.
Moonlight Mask fought crime, carried two snub-nosed .38 revolvers, rode around on a motorcycle, and usually could be heard singing his theme song (I ain’t making this up!) before he appeared out of the darkness. He had no super-powers except the ability to never run out of bullets, and never get his cape caught in his motorcycle’s spokes.
As for his choice of weapons, he couldn’t have picked worse. .38 caliber revolvers were standard issue for many police forces at the time. However, the .38s were notorious for terrible penetrating and stopping power; there have been documented instances of the bullets bouncing off someone just wearing a nylon windbreaker! And generally, the longer a handgun barrel is the more accurate it will be. The only reason anyone wore snub-nosed.38s was because they were easily concealable underneath jackets or other clothes. But for 99% of users they were only effective at point-blank range.
Japanese DVD cover for episodes 47-58 of the television series, part of the Skull Mask storyline.
Moonlight Mask was always coming to the aid of Police Inspector Matsuda, usually when some bizarre, diabolical villain was involved. No one knew who Moonlight Mask was, and his secret identity was never revealed. In the cast credits Moonlight Mask was always played by a question mark (”?”). However, even the dullest of audience members could figure that Moonlight Mask was very probably private detective Juro Iwai, played by actor Ose Koichi, because the two characters are never, ever seen at the same time.
Cover to the Japanese DVD for the film Moonlight Mask - The Monster Kong. Gotta say, this Kong isn’t as impressive as the television version.
Moonlight Mask debuted on Japanese television in February 1958 and ran for a total of 131 episodes, ending in July 1959. The episodes were run serial-style, with each episode picking up right where the previous one ended (usually with a cliff hanger of sorts).
The episodes were organized into 5 stories. The first story, Skull Mask, ran the first 72 episodes. The second story, The Secret of the Paradai Kingdom, ran 21 episodes. Mammoth Kong, the third story, was 11 episodes long, and featured the first television kaiju. Story number four, The Ghost Party Strikes Back, was 13 episodes long. And the final story of the series, Don’t Turn Your Hand to Revenge, ran for 14 episodes.
Mammoth Kong as he appears in the television series. He’s a fearsome looking brute!
I was only able to find available for sale in the USA the first four chapters of Mammoth Kong. Above is the cover of the DVD that I purchased from Amazon. The episodes are subtitled in English, but appear to have been lifted from Youtube.
Despite being an early television show, with a very limited budget, I was very entertained by these episodes. Mammoth Kong is a mutant giant ape, approximately 45-50 feet tall. The scale model building for the Mammoth Kong scenes, while not up to Eiji Tsuburaya’s standards, were convincing enough. And instead of using an expensive optical process to put humans in the same scene as the Mammoth Kong, they used marionettes instead. It sounds goofy, but it was actually pretty effective.
In addition to the television series, Toei Films produced six Moonlight Mask films during the same time period. There films were released in 1958, and the second three films were released in 1959.
That’s the diabolical Skull Mask and his gang of eyeball minions threatening Moonlight Mask.
The films were Moonlight Mask, Moonlight Mask - Duel to the Death in Dangerous Waters, Moonlight Mask - The Claws of Satan, Moonlight Mask - The Monster Kong, Moonlight Mask - The Ghost Party Strikes Back, and Moonlight Mask - The Last of the Devil.
The films were adaptations of the stories from the television series. with Skull Mask - the longest story - getting divided into two films. They were filmed in 2.35:1 aspect (”Toei Scope”) and had slightly better production value. Also, Moonlight Mask and Detective Juro Iwai (if they really are the same person) is played by actor Fumitake Omura.
Japanese DVD cover for the film Moonlight Mask - The Claws of Satan.
Think about how neat it was to be kid in Japan back then: not only could you see Moonlight Mask on TV every week, but you could go to the movie theatre and see him at the same time! The equivalent today would be watching Superman and Lois on TV at home, and having a new Superman film showing up at your local multiplex (anybody remember those?) every 4 months.
The television series and films were quite popular and doing well. Unfortunately, a young Japanese boy died imitating one of Moonlight Mask’s stunts. This led to the cancellation of the television series and the films coming to an end.
(A similar incident led to director Teruo Ishii, who directed several of the early Starman/Super Giant films, to leave the series after a young boy had been hurt imitating Starman.)
An early soft vinyl (sofubi) Moonlight Mask figure.
A manga of Moonlight Mask made the scene a few months after the television series started. Much of the artwork in the manga was by Jiro Kuwata, the creator of 8 Man. He is better known in the West as the artist of the Batman manga from the 1960s, which were collected and released by DC Comics a few years ago.
The Marmit 1:6-scale Moonlight Mask action figure. He has automatics here, which he never used in the television series, so thes may be based on the film version. (Yeah, I know he needs to be touched-up with a Tide Pen. You try keeping your white costume clean when you’re tussling with bad guys!)
Moonlight Mask would return in 1972 for a 39-episode anime series. He had an updated costume, with a motorcycle helmet instead of a turban. He was also sporting two .357 Magnum revolvers, which in real life would be only slightly more accurate than his old snub-nosed .38s, but with a heck of a lot more stopping power.
The Medicom Real Action Heroes (RAH) 1:6-scale action figure of the anime version of Moonlight Mask.
The anime series was apparently very popular in Latin America, where it is known as Centella.
The anime was broken into three 13-part story arcs: The Claw of Satan, The Mammoth Kong, and The Dragon’s Fang. I’ve never seen the anime, but based on the titles alone I’m assuming the fist two stories are based on the original series.
There was also a gag anime, We know You, Moonlight Mask-kun, which had 25 episodes broadcast between October 1999 and March 2000. I know next-to-nothing about this series.
That brings us to 1981, and the most embarrassing point on Moonlight Mask’s career:
The Moonlight Mask movie, known in English as Moon Mask Rider.
This movie was an attempt to update Moonlight Mask for the 1980s, complete with giving him a suped-up motorcycle. I’ve only seen clips from this film, and I was not impressed. The kindest review of the film of several I’ve read describes it as dull; not bad, but not good.
None of the original series’ characters return, and Moonlight Mask even has a new secret identity! The actor who played Moonlight Mask, Daisuke Kuwahara, was never seen in films again after this movie bombed big time at the box office.
The 1981 movie version of the Moonlight Mask costume, which seems to incorporate elements from both the television and anime versions.
Sadly, that was the last time Moonlight Mask was attempted in live action, and he hasn’t been seen in anime in over 20 years. Unfortunately, only Japanese versions of the Toei films, and a few chapters from the television series, are available for sale in the USA. The DVD covers shown above are all from Amazon’s site.
Some random episodes of the television and first anime series are available on YouTube, but I couldn’t find any subtitled in English.
One of the Toei films - I think it’s Moonlight Mask - The Claws of Satan - is available in its entirety on YouTube, but it is not subtitled either.
I’m hoping one day someone will subtitle the original television series and films and distribute them to the USA. I’m dying to see how Moonlight Mask manages to defeat Mammoth Kong and the evil gang controlling him.
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childhood friends to lovers/growing up together sterek fic reclist
uhh this kinda got a lil angsty but i recommend you pick a growing up together fic and listen to this song i promise you will not regret it
https://open.spotify.com/track/5Dz8nrwQlPLE68WaTEIqY5?si=aogjMc1aToSALmAlfQOR7A
anyways as usual check tags please!!
(click on the title for the fic)
you know you're on my mind
bibliosexual
Summary:
If there’s one thing Derek’s learned in life, it’s that crushing on someone who lives on an entire other fucking continent is probably a bad idea.
(hs!au + texting!au + childhood friends to lovers the ULTIMATE fluff fic)
i carry your heart with me (i carry it in my heart) (series)
yodasyoyo
Summary:
Stiles is six years old when he first hears Derek's voice in his head.
Or what happens if you have a soulmate bond, in a universe where soulmate bonds don't exist?
Up Down Lock Unlock
isthatbloodonhisshirt (wasterella)
Summary:
“Why are you going into grandma Ito’s apartment?” he asked.
Derek turned to him, key sliding into the lock. “What do you mean?” He tried to turn it, but the key wasn’t budging. Maybe the lock was sticking again, it’d been doing that the past few days.
Stiles was staring at him like Derek was stupid.
Derek did not appreciate sass from a ten year old.
“That’s grandma Ito’s place.”
“No,” Derek said calmly, pulling the key out and then shoving it back in, wiggling it a little when it continued to refuse to unlock the door. “This is my place.”
“I think you’re on the wrong floor then, because that apartment belongs to grandma Ito.”
(time travel counts as childhood friends right?)
the difference between going back and going home
thepsychicclam
Summary:
Stiles and Derek were inseparable growing up, but then college, jobs, and life happened. When Stiles comes back to Beacon Hills a decade later, he doesn't expect to reconnect with Derek, and he sure doesn't expect to fall in love with him.
It's Such a Gas When You Bring Up the Past
orphan_account
Summary:
Stiles finds a box of old photo albums that dredge up the sweet, the funny, the adorable, and the mildly heartwrenching parts of his and Derek's past.
(mainly a friends fic but its too cute to not include)
It's Always Been You
charlesdk
Summary:
Stiles' love life was practically non-existing, always had been. He was always terrible at picking up clues when people hit on him (it had happened, Erica had been witness to it and had been the one to let him know it was happening in the first place) because he never expected anyone to do so.
He wasn't the most desirable guy around, he knew that. He was loud, extremely nerdy, never knew when to stop talking, not exactly much of a looker if you asked him, the list was endless.
Point was, he never did know when someone was flirting with him. Which was probably how he ended up in the fight that would change his life for the better.
Lead You Home Again
GotTheSilver
Summary:
The first time Derek meets Stiles, the kid’s brown eyes are wide, and he’s staring up at him with a mischievous grin as he tugs at the arm of Derek’s first ever Batman figure like he’s trying to separate it from Batman’s body.
An alternate take on Teen Wolf, wherein Stiles and Derek are childhood friends, and things unfold from there.
Kingdom By The Sea
kilaem
Summary:
Lydia grabs his arm and pulls him down in the seat next to her. “When the hell did you find time to bag a guy like Hale?”
“We’re friends,” Stiles feels his face heat up, and then the team are running out and Derek sees him and smiles. His blush gets worse.
“Oh really?”
“Our moms were friends, okay? We’ve been in diapers together.”
“I thought you two hated each other.”
Those That Bump In The Night
bleep0bleep
Summary:
A boy’s head appears upside down, hanging off the bed. “Is anyone there?” he calls out curiously, looking right at Derek’s eyes.
Caught, then. The protocol for being deliberately seen by a child is just to look as strange and fearsome as possible. No one would believe them, anyways. But Derek is tired, and he’s been running and scared, and now he just kind of flickers, curling out a tendril of dark smoke, hoping that he’s a little bit scary.
No such luck.
The boy’s eyes widen. “Oooh, are you the bogeyman?”
“Bogeyperson,” Derek says, before he can help himself.
~
When Stiles was a boy, he had an imaginary friend named Derek. Ten years later, Derek comes back, and is very, very real.
Five Times Derek and Stiles Kissed For Practice (And One Time They Didn't)
mikkimouse
Summary:
In which Derek and Stiles grow up together and practice kissing, roughly in that order.
216 + 1: Words To Say Instead of I Love You
briggs
Summary:
Derek and Stiles have been best friends for fourteen years. They have their differences, sure, but it's never been a question for them. Their friendship has been the most solid thing in their lives -- until suddenly it isn't anymore.
Funny how just a few choice words can throw fourteen years of friendship off-balance.
OR
a collection of "Bro, That's Gay" one-shots that actually ended up turning into a concrete storyline.
hope is the thing with feathers (part of a series)
ShanaStoryteller
Summary:
Stiles is ten when he saves the Hales from their burning home and Derek from a wolfsbane bullet, and this establishes a pattern that seem to continue indefinitely.
"Then he's facing a burning home, and he wraps the hood of his sweatshirt around his mouth before he pushes the door open and steps inside. There's Mr. Hale asleep - he hopes asleep - on the couch, next to - Stiles thinks that's his brother but there are so many Hales, who can keep track. He rushes over and starts shaking him, can see the rise and fall of the man's chest so he knows he's alive, but he's not waking up.
He shoves away his hood so he can shout, "Mr. Hale! You have to get up, there's a fire! Mr. Hale, get up!" Nothing, he's not even twitching, both of them taking in deep even breaths like they're having the most peaceful of rests, and Stiles is going to cry. "Wake up, wake up, wake up!"
There's a moment, where all Stiles can hear is the blood rushing in his ears and not the roar of the flames or the creak of wood, then with a violent, silent pop it's all back and both of the men are gasping awake, eyes open and jumping to their feet. "
(one of my favourite fics like EVER)
it came from the trees
whatshouldntbe
Summary:
“Don’t worry, Scott caught me up on everything,” Kira assures with a bubbly smile via video-chat. “You and Derek, huh? I probably should have seen that coming. I always thought it might be Cora, but Derek was the one that looked at you how I used to look at you.”
Stiles goes a little pink. “It’s still kinda new but, yeah. I really like him. He’s...” Beautiful. Patient. Smart. Painfully honest. Sweet.“...a total dork.”
Kira laughs and laughs. When she gets herself together, she replies, “Yeah, those little hearts and stars in your eyes definitely say different."
or
Stiles moves from the shiny, fast-paced lifestyle of Los Angeles to the foggy, sleepy town of Beacon Hills so his dad can become the new sheriff. Newly fifteen, he does his best to finish out his freshman year of high school (by staying under the radar) when he suddenly becomes the Beyoncé of the Supernatural community. And, without much prompting on his part, he ends up catching the eye of one of the most prominent Werewolf families in all of North America. It literally all starts with a stuffed animal(s).
(oh god this fic is the literal best even though its abandoned it ends at okay-ish place. this is one of the best hale family characterisations ive ever read. if you squint it can be a childhood friends to lovers fic but im including it anyway bc its amazing)
Promises aren't Meant to be Broken
paradis
Summary:
“Thanks for saving me,” Stiles blurts out, staring up at Laura, wide eyed.
Laura grins. “I like you,” she says, “we’ll be friends.”
(more laura and stiles besties centric but totally worth a read)
The Things We See
MelodramaticSalad
Summary:
Stiles grew up in the life of knowing that there was always more to life than what others saw with a first glance. Even as a child he saw things that no one else seemed to and always had a fascination with the unusual.
Some considered him an unusual child, but Claudia welcomed every single quirk her son displayed. His mother had a few special talents of her own and thrilled her to see it in her son as well. She'd raised Stiles to always keep his mind open and as grew and started to display his powers, she began to teach him how to use them. She even taught Stiles about werewolves at a young age, his infatuation with them growing once he had learned the truth about her closest friend.
Stiles spent nearly every possible moment that he could roaming the Hale house, following after the middle child most of the time. Derek was three years older than Stiles, but the bond they developed with each other was something their mothers considered out of a story book. Like Derek, Stiles was sensitive to his emotions, but unlike Derek, Stiles didn't need a scent to figure it out. He could feel it.
take me back
matildajones
Summary:
“I dare you to kiss me,” Stiles taunts, and he’s not expecting the way Derek says a naughty word under his breath and then leans forward.
Stiles yelps. He just dodges Derek’s mouth before he’s laughing wildly and running through the trees, calling out a series of ew ew ew as Derek chases him back home.
#sterek#sterek fic recs#childhood friends to lovers#au#growing up toget#reclist#teen wolf#stiles stilinski#derek hale#hale pack
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Major spoilers for Wonder Woman 1984 below
Two-thirds of the way through Wonder Woman 1984, Diana of Themyscira, daughter of Hippolyta, Queen of the Amazons and Zeus, the mightiest of the Gods of Olympus, finds herself wounded and being practically carried through the streets of Washington D.C. by regular human man Steve Trevor; then shuffled into an alleyway where he pleads with her to let him go, and she refuses, while humanity burns all around them. Her attachment to him is draining her powers. This after nearly two hours of Diana pining for Steve; indulging Steve in an ’80s fashion montage and a leisurely trip to the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum while a god-honed artifact is being used by an evil businessman to take over the world; being rescued from car chases by Steve and piloted around in an invisible jet which she creates for Steve; and having the most basic plot points of the film explained to her by Steve, despite the fact that she is a world-renowned scholar of basically everything who casually reads Latin as a hobby.
Steve Trevor is the main and unconquerable problem of Patty Jenkins’ follow-up to 2017’s nearly perfect Wonder Woman origin story, but it’s not the film’s only issue. Wonder Woman 1984 is a complete mess.
The story itself is nearly incoherent. Like so many Batmans before it, Wonder Woman finds herself up against two villains who circle around and ultimately tag-team with each other. There’s Pedro Pascal’s Trumpian Maxwell Lord, a narcissistic con-man who wants — well, that’s part of the problem. What does Maxwell Lord want? More, basically. The concept of more, a narratively philosophical pursuit way too far out of bounds for a movie that spends 15 minutes letting Chris Pine try on fanny packs. And then there’s Kristin Wiig’s Barbara Minerva/Cheetah, who just wants a little bit of respect and attention and to not be sexually assaulted in the park on her way home at night. Both Maxwell and Barbara get what they want by wishing on a lump of citrine that was crafted by an evil god? Or something? It’s unclear. The point is that every civilization where the Wishing Citrine shows up ultimately vanishes from the face of the earth because of the greed of the leaders. The Mayans, for example, were wiped out by their own gluttony in using the Wishing Citrine and not, you know, brutal Spanish colonization.
Meanwhile, Diana and Steve exist inside a rom-com from the moment he is resurrected. (Reincarnated? Revivified? Zombied?) They dance, they smooch, they cuddle, they hold hands and watch fireworks and do the tourist scene in D.C. and somehow have unfettered access to the West Wing of the White House and a runway of fully fueled antique(?) planes that inexplicably travel at super speed. Their storyline, which is a retread of the first movie, is baffling, but so are all the plot points inside it. Nearly every scene is overly long; the transitions between scenes are thoroughly disjointed; nothing that needs explaining is actually ever explained (Where did Steve even come from? And how? And what happened to the guy whose body he took over while he was inhabiting it? How does the Wishing Citrine actually work? And why? And from whomst!); and everything is resolved without explanation or repercussion.
The first 15 minutes of Wonder Woman 1984 are perfect, and everything that made the first film such a narrative, symbolic, and feminist triumph. A young Diana enters a Themysciran pentathlon-like gauntlet of climbing, diving, swimming, acrobatics, horseback riding, running, and archery. She very nearly beats fully grown Amazonian warriors, cheats a little, and learns a valuable lesson about doing what’s right and telling the truth from Robin Wright’s Antiope. Then, in the present day, she descends on a full-blown 1980s mall to save some kids from some bad guys, crunching up guns with her bare fists and winking sweetly at the little girls she rescues. Things take a turn for the worse, and never recover, as soon as Steve Trevor’s memory punctures the screen.
Steve pulling Diana through the chaotic streets of the nation’s capital during a global crisis is the antithesis of the Wonder Woman William Moulton Marston and his wife, Elizabeth Holloway Marston, and their partner, Olive Byrne, conceived as a superhero superior to every other in the Golden Age of comic books during World War II. More powerful than Superman, more ingenious than Batman, faster than The Flash, better at fighting Nazis than Captain America, and above all: wiser and more compassionate than every man to don a cape or cowl. In fact, as the main man in Wonder Woman’s life, Steve Trevor assumes the role of the damsel in distress in every Golden Age Wonder Woman story, an accomplished but deeply inept pilot in need of constant rescue. Not only does Wonder Woman refuse to marry him, or even go on a date with him; she perpetually warns every woman she knows not to lose themselves for any reason to any man — just as her mother warns her.
“These bracelets, they’re an Amazon’s greatest strength and weakness,” she says to herself once she breaks free from Nazi Baroness Paula von Gunther’s henchmen. “What a fool I was to let a man weld chains upon them! It just makes a girl realize how she has to watch herself in this Man’s World!”
In Wonder Woman 1984, Diana cannot get enough of Steve’s boring human head. She caresses it, stares at it, pulls and pokes at it, holds it close, strokes it, pets every inch of it. But her adoration of Chris Pine’s face has nothing on Jenkins, who frames Gal Gadot behind him constantly. The camera focuses on Steve’s reception to everything, while Diana reacts to his reactions. She isn’t just riding shotgun in her own iconic invisible plane; she’s in the passenger seat of her entire movie.
In the film’s climax, as Maxwell Lord manically and incessantly begs everyone on earth to utilize the power of the Wishing Citrine, my wife glared at the TV and said, “I wish this Wonder Woman movie had been about Wonder Woman.”
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WandaVision
I want to share my thoughts and opinions about WandaVision. So spoiler ahead, please don’t read this if you don’t want them or wither don’t want to now my opinions about it.
Let’s start with the positive sides.
1. As a sitcom is very good. I particularly love that they did an amazing job making each episode about each era. It really feels like is part of the era it was suppose to be. Like for example now on episode 07 we have the modern family episode that is supposed to be in the era that shows are more self aware so is when things start to showing off and the glimpse of this fake reality starts to break.
2. The production is on point. Is very obvious that Marvel/Disney put a love of money on the process to do this show.
3. The cast is fantastic. Let’s talk about my favorites individuality:
-Monica. To be honest I wasn’t that happy to lose child Monica so soon before getting another thing from her(and Maria too to be fair) but the actress is killing it. She is amazing. I love how she is so strong minded. And also how versatil she is. The way she changed personalities so well.
-Darcy. I miss her so much after Thor and was afraid we were gonna lose her for good in that sea of testosterone that is the MCU, but we got it back and full strong. Being inside of the hex makes me happy because even if I love her I wasn’t so happy to what she is doing.
-Jimmy Woo. The actor is amazing and was very good on Ant-Man. I just hope they make him do more because technically he hasn’t done anything remarkable(and I mean of the calibre of the actor) yet.
About that I would die for some tv show with these three. Also, I know a lot of people ship Darcy and Jimmy but Darcy and Monica, or even better a trouple?
Now what I consider negative.
1. The most important part is what jewish and romani are complaining about the erasing of Wanda’s heritage on the MCU(and not is not because she is not Magneto’s daughter; Magneto is not the only Jewish men out there). It feels extremely weird that we have only see like three avengers’s bedrooms and she has not one but two crux, implying that she is catholic/christian. That’s not ok and there’s not an excuse for that kind of treatment. I love Wanda and personally think Elizabeth is doing very good portraying her but that should not be erased. Representation matters and the MCU should do better.
2.Is still irks me how they decide to make a sitcom of Wanda’s mental breakdown. It doesn’t sit right with me and that’s one of my biggest complaints about the MCU. They have always treat everything in a funny/joke side and that’s something that I don’t feel right.
House of M is one of the biggest and more impact storyline that Marvel ever did. And there’s a reason why each one of the heroes were awakening were disgusted, almost ready to barf/puke(I believe Hawkeye or Luke Cage did). Peter freaking Parker wanted to kill Wanda with his own hands. If people is so angry with batman not kill rule in BvS seeing Peter Parker wanting to kill someone himself was worse.
And yet, here we are, seeing this as a sitcom. I believe that’s a MCU problem and that’s why Thor’s breakdown was so bad represented. Is like they don’t know how to handle heavy stuff, but they do. Is more like they are afraid that their audience are not able to handle heavy stuff.
Personally I would love to have a Haunting of Hill House/Bly Manor or this is us or another kind of really dark drama we can handle and show how really horrible is what is happening to Wanda.
Probably the last two episodes would show me something different but still those first 7 episodes were so weird for me. Knowing each joke and funny moment were a cry for help from Wanda wasn’t sit right with me.
3. How easy is the storyline. For all the talent and money they have they are doing so weak in hiding and working their stuff. Maybe is because is supposed to be a sitcom but really the show is not as deep as most of the people try to make it feel.
4. Boy the MCU and Netflix has spoiled most of you, but having an episode per week is a very normal and not so different thing towards tv shows. Seeing articles saying WandaVision changed the TV industry showed how easy the MCU has their things.
5. And speaking about that, you give too much credit to the MCU for doing things so minimal. How they are 200+ posts on all social media about the shape of some curtains make and M so is homage to house of M show exactly why people give so much credit to the MCU for the simple things.
6. I hated how the MCU did so dirty Agent of Shield, Agent Carter, Runaways, Cloak and Dagger, Luke Cage, The punisher, daredevil, Jessica Jones, Iron Fist and others I don’t remember; and I was expecting they give some credit to them in the disney+ shows. So I expect that book from episode 07 is not the Darkhold because that showed up on AOS season 4 and that would be another spit on their show (I still want Daisy Johnson Agent of Sword show so finger crosses).
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Talia, Damian and choosing between good and evil
Before Grant Morrison created Damian in 2006 Talia was seen as one of Bruce's greatest loves for a long time. She was the first love interest of Bruce that showed him from a more passionate side:
Bruce and Talia loved each other, but Talia could never really choose between her loyalty to her father and her love for Bruce, even though in most stories she would end up helping Bruce against Ra's.
While she was morally gray, Talia was originally a kind character, who fought against child rapists, murderes and other villains, patched Bruce up when he was hurt or down and even threw herself between Bruce and bullets that were about to hit him. In the 1987 graphic novel "Son of the demon" the two even married and Talia got pregnant. Bruce went pretty much overboard trying to keep Talia and their unborn child safe and almost got himself killed in the process. Which is why Talia lied to him about suffering from a miscarriage and asked him to leave her. Later she gave birth to their unnamed son and gave him to an orphanage:
The graphic novel was later taken out of continuity because DC didn't like the implication of Bruce having sex and not knowing that he had a child when he's supposed to be the world's greatest detective.
The reason I'm mentioning this story is because it would later serve as the base for Damian's creation in 2006. While the idea of Bruce and Talia having a child came up in Elseworld stories before (Ibn in "Kingdom Come" and Tallant Wayne in "Batman: League of the Batmen") the introduction of Damian marked the first time their son became canon in the main DC universe.
When Grant Morrison started his run on Batman he decided to bring "Son of the demon" back into continuity, but didn't bother to read the graphic novel he only vaguely remembered. His vague memory ended up basically destroying Talia's original character, something she hasn't recovered from since 2006.
In his memory they didn't have a consensual relationship and Talia raped Bruce to have a child. Morrison reduced her to the "Asian Babymama" trope and turned her into a mustache twirling villain, a worse version of Ra's basically, who turned evil because Bruce rejected her. Suddenly she was willing to sacrifice both Bruce and Damian to reach her goal of ruling the world. I have a lot of issues with this premise, most importantly its racist and sexist undertones, but this post wouldn't end if I started ranting and there are fans who are more knowledgeable about Talia and better at explaining why this sucks so much.
Grant Morrison later admitted that he remembered the story wrong and tried to explain that Talia went evil because of the continuity changes Superboy Prime punching the universe caused (Don't ask, comics are weird) and that when Bruce accused Talia of drugging him Bruce was actually lying about getting drugged, because he didn't want to admit to himself that he had loved her and slept with her out of his own volition.
If you don't believe me, here is the link to the interview: https://www.blogtalkradio.com/hotb/2016/11/15/064-the-zorro-of-arkham--an-interview-with-grant-morrison
Think what you will about that explanation. Fact is, the last time Bruce commented on Damian's conception he said this:
So to all the people who love to yell that Talia is a rapist and Damian a rape-baby, kindly shut up. Morrison's mistake got retconned years ago.
Anyway, Damian inherited Talia's struggle to choose between Ra's and Bruce, only that they turned Talia into a second Ra's and gave all her previous conflicts to her son, which is probably one of the reasons DC is unwilling to return her to her former character.
Some writers like Patrick Gleason have tried to give her some redemption, like when he wrote that Talia had been posessed during Morrison's run and cleansed during her resurrection, but the rest of DC pretty much ignored his attempt.
I'm not a fan of DC's extremely black and white, good and evil narrative they have created for Damian and the execution is pretty lackluster.
First of all, it's pretty racist that the Al-Ghuls lost a lot of their complexity over the years to serve as Damian's dark and evil side of the family, while the batfamily (which is pretty white) is presented as the light and good side. It gives me major "white saviour" vibes and has lots of unfortunate implications, especially because DC likes to pretend that Damian is white and only touches his arab/chinese roots when they write him in a more negative light. DC does the same thing with Talia, where they draw her as white when she's more sympathetic and give her brown skin when she's evil.
Second of all, DC loves to label Bruce as a man of high morality, but I think he's actually a pretty bad hero and parent. Some part of me is convinced Talia isn't allowed to be a better mother because it would make Bruce look bad in comparison.
I talked enough about why I don't think of modern Batman as a good person and a hero in my previous post, so I'm going to focus on Talia and Ra's Al-Ghul.
Making Talia evil robs her of her character and history, erases one of Bruce's most important romantic relationships and after a while it just lacks story potential. If the Al-Ghuls have no redeeming qualities then writing Damian struggling so much between the two sides becomes baffling after a going through this character arc several times.
You can argue that Damian got gaslighted for years and that he was still an impressionable child, but if the Al-Ghuls are really as evil, brutal and selfish as DC writes them nowadays it makes it really hard to sympathize with anyone who thinks about joining them (which happens a lot with the batfamily).
Another fact that DC loves to forget is that originally Ra's used to be an eco-terrorist. He planned to wipe out some part of the human population to save plants and animals from extinction, which is extremely relevant today. Ra's is a villain, we don't have to argue about that, but he used to have more depth that made him interesting as a character and made it more plausible why someone might join him. He also loved his daughter, which explained why Talia struggled to leave him in her old stories.
The way they are written now it makes little sense why Bruce should have so much respect for Ra's, something that made their relationship special, there is no reason why Bruce ever loved Talia and decided to sleep with her and there's no reason why Damian should ever return to the League.
Establishing a more loving relationship, both between Bruce and Talia, even if it's in the past, and a better relationship between Damian and Talia has a lot more story potential for Damian's seemingly never ending storyline where he can't decide if he wants to follow Bruce's methods (whatever that means for modern Batman) or the way of his mother. Because as it stands his character developement is stuck in a loop where he just looks like a boy who is unable to learn and can't see how one of the possible options has nothing going for it.
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So in-between writing fanfiction, working on my novel, work, the upcoming online semester, keeping the house clean, and getting my ass repeating handed to me in Dark Souls: Remastered and Dark Souls III, my increasing disdain for how terrible, unimaginative, and terribly imaginative some ‘fans’ of particular properties can be. And it’s not just from one particular instance, it’s from several occurrences over the years.
Yesterday, I was watching Maj0r Lee’s video reaction to terrible reviews of Final Fantasy 7: Remake. Side note, I’ve respected ML for not being afraid to speak his mind, no matter how much it goes against the nerd fan hivemind. And one thing that quickly got on his and my nerves about the reviews was how repetitive they were.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR-1NTCwLr8
“Tetsuya Nomura pulled a Kingdom Hearts and ruined the great story of the original FF7.”
“Nomura and friends turned FF7 into Kingdom Hearts-tier garbage.”
“I was going to give FF7: Remake a ten out of ten until that terribly ending turned it into a zero.”
Tetsuya Nomura this, Kingdom Hearts that, something something the original story was basically the bible. The same points repeated over and over again. It’s like listening to all the same complaints about the Last Jedi. I’d probably take those complaints seriously if it didn’t feel like the same arguments were being copy-pasted over and over because that generates more clicks on YouTube.
If I sound a bit salty, it might be because my favorite video game franchise (BTW, I would never say KH is flawless) is being used as a go-to example of bad writing. This must be how the Call of Duty fans feel all the time.
But there was one particular ‘review’ that pissed me off to no end;
“The more and more I think about it, I feel like Nomura and co. have little to no respect for the fans that have given their work this love, and perhaps even harbour some contempt for them wanting to to see their childhood imagination and memories of the story realised as they deserve to be.
There is a certain arrogance to twisting this world and story to their own whim, as if to say that “this is our world, our characters, what you fans think means nothing to us, we can do what we want with them and you can get fucked if you disagree”.”
You know what this reminds me of? Those laughable Anti-Horikoshi blogs that use the trans flag as their background to supposedly ‘protect’ the female characters of My Hero Academia from their ‘disgusting’ creator. Those lunatics that posted themselves burning their copies of Tokyo Ghoul because the main character banged his female love interest and called Ishida a homophobe. Or the the worst episode of South Park where Trey Parker and Matt Stone showed their disapproval of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull by having Indy getting horrifically sodomized by George Lucas and Steven Spielburg.
This might be hard for some idiots to understand, so let me spell it out for you; YOU DO NOT OWN A STORY OR CHARACTERS JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A “FAN”!
In the end, writers have their own ideas for how storylines, character progression, and character relationships will turn out. If all creators ever did was pander to the fickle desires of the most rabid ‘fans’, all media would be nothing but self-referential bullshit. Hell, we already example how bad this would be. It’s called ‘How the Last Jedi should’ve ended!’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ
While this video was clearly made to take the piss out of TLJ, it ironically demonstrates my fucking point! This is also why I am 100% certain that we’re never getting a Dark Souls/Bloodborne movie or tv show. Because any interpretation or story that dares to go against the most poorly thought out fan theories will get ripped apart by absolute lunatics with nothing better to do with their time.
And another thing, can we stop treating stories like they’re fucking scripture?! There’s a reason that the ‘Stations of the Canon’ trope is derided by many authors. I can probably name all the Naruto fanfics that aren’t just the same as the original story just with slightly altered dialogue and everyone wearing slightly-different clothing. And I was guilty of this too, until I realized how much more fun it was to go completely off the rails.
Not the mention that this kind of thinking leads to people holding stories to such a ridiculous degree that any sequel or retelling that fails to live up to those unreasonable expectations will get treated like a personal attack and a dumpster fire not even worthy to roast expired marshmallows over.
I’m not saying you should never criticize a story, game or comic for its actual flaws, but don’t try to make it into a sob story like ‘How dare the creator or owners of this story like go about it what they think is the best! These guys are worse than HITLER!’ Hate to break to ya, but no ones goes into a story or long-running franchise to purposely piss off the fans. They’re doing it because they got a story to tell...or to make money. Or both.
And try to come up with your own critiques instead of just copy and pasting the same arguments over and over again.
“Fairy Tail is terrible because all the girls have big tits and skimpy outfits.”
“I’ve heard all that before. Do you have any other complaints?”
“No, but that’s what everyone else is whining about.”
“Well then, piss off and come back when you actually form your own goddamn opinion.”
And I’m not saying that if your problem if a story is the same as someone else’s, then it's invalid. But at least try to say it in a way that doesn’t come across as just copying what the guy before ya said.
One last ramble before I go back to writing and getting attacked by video game monsters; can we stop with all the hyperbole? There are only so many times I can hear the phrase, “This is the worst thing ever” before it loses all meaning. Yes, I’m sure the newest Call of Duty game is worse than Santa Claus Saves the World. That the newest Star Wars movie is worse than A Serbian Film. Or that Black Clover is worse than Eiken.
And that argument is especially soured when the phrase ‘raped my childhood’ eventually rears its ugly head. It was outdated and terribly tasteless when Doug Walker reviewed Batman and Robin, and it’s gotten more disgusting and childish as a phrase over time.
Anyway, that’s my delusional rambling done for the day. Hope you all are safe and comfortable. Have a nice day!
#fandumb#dark souls#dark souls III#my hero academia#tokyo ghoul#star wars: the last jedi#south park#fairy tail#comics#anime#video games#rant
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SnK 121 Thoughts
Where’s the clip... someone had to have clipped it. Or I could just not interfere with my tentatively obligatory aesthetic and do this the less fun way. Less fun does indeed sound like me, so
There’s this DragonBall Z Abridged line.
From one of the Bardock specials.
You know. Bardock.
He can see the future.
He has a line about all the conveniences this ability causes his life.
-ahem-
USELESS ASS PSYCHIC POWERS.
Do I even need to write this? Can it just be a chorus of what the fuck over and over? Because sincerely, what the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck what the fuck what the fuuuuuuuuck.
That doesn’t even have a tune. I sort of imagined one in my head, but I’m sort of caught up on how this makes everything worse, better, and changes absolutely nothing because it’s still Eren and Zeke being on the most disastrous family trip this world has ever seen.
Let’s review.
In the way that Angelica reviews Alexander Hamilton’s quality choices in the musical.
So we’ve got Eren, who is basically dying after his epic war games decision (good grief I haven’t even read War Games, but is he Stephanie Brown in this analogy? is that what we’re dealing with? is he somehow both Stephanie Brown and Batman?) that was intending to lead into him holding his brother’s hand.
His head is shot off.
Lest we forget.
Zeke caught it.
Because he’s a Good Big Brother.
That quality pro-genocide big brothering.
Brought to you by Dad.
Yeah so. Zeke and Eren, down memory lane. In an Inception of their own making, only like. Actually Inception. I am going to make this post take nine times longer than it has to because I’m going to keep making pop references instead of dealing with the content.
Inception is a movie where the plot is for a heist team to go in and plant an idea inside someone’s head so that it grows into a genuine change for the world, breaking up a giant monopoly of power and slowing human civilization’s speedy erosion. #Spoilers, I guess.
...The things I bring up in these posts are always keenly relevant, good fuck.
So that we continue to all be caught up, Eren is playing out the part of the first time this is done, where the main character plants an idea in his wife’s head that leads to the destruction of his life and her death.
With his dad playing the part of wife.
Anyway, Zeke and Eren are having an Inception.
In the real world, Zeke is holding his little brother’s decapitated head while Paradis is attacked by Marley (soon to be the entire world) due entirely to Eren and Zeke’s choices. The objective of which, for each of them, was holding hands.
Eren’s aim for that is unknown, while Zeke is shooting for a passive genocide that the narrative is making look like the more reasonable decision based on the fuckery that has become of the unscrewed nuts and bolts inside Eren’s head.
To be clear, neither one is being reasonable.
This is a trash fire of bad decisions.
Where the person rooting for genocide mostly just has the edge of probably being the same person throughout the entire chapter, as well as his life history, while the person with the unknown aims is looking like a really good case of Inside Eren Yeager, Titan Attack You.
That was funnier in my head.
The joke is that the Attack Titan ate Eren.
Is in the process of eating Eren?
Is periodically nomming on Eren.
Results may vary.
V original theory do not steal.
Ahem.
Going back to our plot summary!
Eren and Zeke, being the quality brothers they are, want to hold hands, and being the quality human beings they are, start a massive war of death and trauma on their way to holding hands, then they fail to hold hands because the natural result of the quality of their quality is that Eren’s head got blown off, so they’re settling for Zeke holding Eren’s head.
Eren is presently cast as the clear antagonist, Zeke’s idea is still awful, and they’re locked in an extradimensional space where no one else has the power to point out that their main achievement so far is being useless dumbasses.
On top of a field of bodies.
Boys.
What in the fuck.
Forget what they want to do.
By all evidence, even in the midst of other horrifying details coming to light, all that needed to happen was them making contact. That’s it. Whatever massive plan is ongoing, they just needed to hold hands.
Cue a bunch of people dying. Including probably Eren.
This is a bad plan.
I’m okay with that.
It is still one of the most insanely complicated monuments to a zero sum game that I have ever read, and it becomes very obvious that the reason these characters have Titan powers is because if they didn’t, they would be dead the first chapter they showed up, lacking the good sense to not be dead.
First volume, sorry.
This is not a complaint. I would happily eat mountains of popcorn to the tune of canon agreeing that yes, letting Zeke and Eren come up with their own original ideas is maybe bad. It is hilarious. They are not good at this.
I realize Zeke didn’t have hands back then, but at this point both of you have to be considering that maybe you should have just bumped shoulders on the plane.
I’m sort of on the fence for how to react outside of heavy amusement, though. The downside of Zeke and Eren being so bad at this is that literally nothing is going well. Paradis is on fire again, Marley exists yet remains to let the members of its cast who sort of have morals die shocking deaths, and the fate of the world is being decided in the split second before Eren’s death between two people who should be in charge of absolutely nothing.
The rest of the cast, barring the inevitable reveal of what the fuck Eren’s got up his sleeve, has no power over any of this.
It’s. I guess it’s what you would call appalling.
Yelena’s point of view is really the closest anyone in canon has come to understanding the situation, and boy is that telling. She sees these two men as gods. She believes in their ability to remake the world. All that falls to her is facilitating their union.
She might have her battle lines a bit crossed, but yeah. Once Eren and Zeke make contact, all the rest of the world can do to discover its fate is wait.
That is a key Epic style plot, only it’s drawn out by Eren and Zeke both clearly not being gods. Zeke is a broken child who has made all of his decisions from a belief that the world is too cruel to be worth living in.
Eren is.
...
Eren, I’m coming back to you.
For now, let’s just dub him a disaster.
So you have the storyline of gods clashing while the mortals sit back with bated breath, but the scale of it is stomped all over because mortals who should not be making these decisions are still making them, and neither one seems entirely sane.
Locking Eren and Zeke in a bubble has been a source of grand entertainment, but as a story feature, the idea of these circumstances determining anything is something of a letdown.
Eren’s known for years what he’s wanted to do, and he still ends up with his head shot off while he runs too slow to stop his brother from initiating the death of their people.
Something has to give for this to feel like it matters, because right now the prevailing feeling is that these people should be as far away from power as humanly possible.
The darkness of this story is often, I feel, exaggerated. Sometimes by the author. It is a story where horrific things happen, and are attempted, but the hearts of all the characters we’re invited to sympathize with have always been crystal clear. There has never been a question that Zeke’s plan is wrong. There has never been a question of genocide in all its forms being inexcusable.
Reiner breaks down a wall. Bertolt breaks down a wall. Annie calls monsters to the broken wall.
Thousands of people die because children were handed power and thrown into a situation they had no hopes of understanding.
All three of the traitor kids end up traumatized. Reiner’s mind splits, Bertolt retreats so far into himself he barely engages with the world, and Annie literally crystallizes herself through the desperate desire to make it home.
There is no question that they could have been something besides murderers. They probably all would have preferred that.
This is not a grimdark series where everyone has forgotten what good things look like. Hange can design trains with prisoners of war. Niccolo can learn to care for people he’s been taught to hate. Children can be protected regardless of side.
Where the darkness comes from is not from the absence of light, but the deterioration of faith in that light.
Annie wants to go home. Bertolt and Zeke want it to end. Reiner doesn’t know right and wrong, but he’ll fulfill his duty and extend sympathy to a fellow victim of chaos he’s not equipped to understand.
They stop seeing their fight as something that has true meaning. The most proactive hearts come from Bertolt and Zeke, who share the same mind of simply ending things, not forging a new beginning.
That’s where things get sticky with Eren and Zeke.
This chapter paints Eren in such a dark light it’s hard to hope he succeeds in whatever he’s doing, but Zeke’s wish is still something that can’t be allowed to happen.
The scenario presented is one where the light has gone out, and the person who was counted on the be its champion has lost something essential in his humanity.
Obviously that doesn’t mean this is over, but every time the immediate entertainment of Zeke and Eren being the worst strategists to ever live passes, the question of what’s being fought for here comes up, and there’s no clear answer. Not with this version of Eren.
Cultivated distrust in the protagonist is nothing new, but the extent of this is impressive.
Trying to put this the simplest way I can, for the chapter, I like how this is going.
For the story, the only two people who seem to have power over changing the state of the world are people who should have that power taken away as soon as possible.
If this weren’t all happening while Eren’s head was still falling to the ground, it would bother me less. But as things stand, nothing anyone else is doing has any impact on the story, and Eren and Zeke are impossible to root for.
That it’s probably by design doesn’t do much to make it more palatable.
Leading us into the only part of this post anyone is actually here for.
Eren.
The fuck.
I feel like it’s a fair thing to say that this might not be good.
Outside the usual realm of not good.
Also, now obligatory monthly mention that Eren looks a hell of a lot like Frieda and I want more to be done with that besides the current holder of Frieda’s memories murdering actual Frieda.
He fucking looks like Frieda.
This is why people thought Geographia was a female Eren. Even before his hair choices. Fight me.
As referenced earlier, I think a good chunk of Eren’s problem is that we’re finally dealing with the Attack Titan. Features include an immunity to the First King and the ability to see into the future.
With mixed conclusions about mindless raging.
Funny story about that! Your sons think differently. Have corpses receipts, can verify
...Hell, sorry about your life, Grisha.
(Side note, I’m pretty sure this panel is Frieda. Why? Because Isayama went to the trouble of making one of the long-haired Founders have their ears showing. That is literally the only way I can tell, and even then I’m only sure because Eren comes with a lot more extra shadow this chapter and the very next page.)
Okay, so. Uh.
Here’s where I wonder if I have the right caps for this comparison. I’m pretty sure I don’t yet. This noted time gap brought to you by me typing while I think even though no one reading this would ever know the difference.
The first thing that occurs to me is Mikasa, and cue the rabbit hole about her inheriting the Attack Titan and saying goodbye to Eren in their memories. Add in some bonus flavor about how in Trost, Mikasa’s vocalized motivation for living was being able to remember Eren. The Attack Titan is looking like a very good fit for her.
As for why Mikasa occurs, well!
Note that the key difference in these scenes is that Mikasa is encouraging Eren to transform so fewer of them will die. Eren is encouraging Grisha to transform so the Reiss family absolutely will die.
Sorry, ‘encouraging.’
I feel like I’m more at peace with some of Grisha’s interactions with Eren the last night of his life. As well as the display involved in killing the Reiss family. That’s always been one of the bloodier massacres we’ve played witness to. I passed it off as Grisha being unhinged by how badly everything was going and how it was all his fault, but...
T-tatakae?
-scrolls through images-
Hey so anyone else have fond memories of chapter 63? You know, back when Historia’s allegiance was in question because she was siding with her father and being a very generous-minded child about why Eren was strung up in chains and gagged?
Remember how she got all her memories of Frieda back and glared at Eren even though his father was the one who killed off her beloved older sister, and it was an amusing moment of irrationality in a sea of Historia having a low wisdom score?
Look at her glaring at the last person who deserves to be glared at over the massacre of the only family who treated her kindly!
...
Yikes?
Like, I don’t think she knows, because as tolerant as Historia is of people committing atrocities, Frieda is a sore point, but I think at this point, Isayama probably knew what actually went down with the bloodbath.
Easter eggs. Fun for the whole fandom.
In other fun news, I’ve made the comment several times that one of the sad points of Historia’s situation is Eren is her best friend, given how the story has limited her contact so thoroughly with the other people she cares about.
My brotp has seen better days.
The effect of Historia’s hand coming out of the darkness, Historia herself completely shrouded in the shadows as Eren takes it and discovers the worst moments of his life he hasn’t lived through yet...
Hell, the layout of this chapter is beautiful. All of it, including the very obvious descent into Eren being not quite right.
He’s unlocked the Attack Titan’s powers, and with it, I think a will that is more indomitable than anything Eren the person would have been okay with. Really, I don’t know how much of this is Attack Titan brain sickness, and how much is that Eren already saw himself doing all of this crap, so how bad was doing it one more time?
He’s lived through betraying his friends. He’s killed children. He’s killed the entire family of a friend who saved his life.
What’s doing it twice?
In the grand scheme of all Eren has seen, how bad is anything he’s done recently? Civilians are dead, but bad people are too. People who would hold power the wrong way.
I want to say that Eren’s choices are a result of the Attack Titan having a mind of its own, and between that and the other memories in Eren’s head, his intentions have been corrupted, but that’s mostly me trying to find a way for Eren, as he has been, to survive.
Eren looks at the Reiss family, sees his father hesitating, and takes the lead himself.
The Attack Titan can travel the Paths through time, and Eren, the character most angry about cages, decides that the way things were is the way things should be, even if what happened was wrong.
I realize it’s partly my priorities with the series which keeps the thread of fate so active a plot point in my mind. I’m always going to see Ymir demanding to know why Kristoria’s strength hasn’t turned into trying to change her own fate as a key theme of the series.
Eren had choices.
Maybe something catastrophic would have happened, but nothing forced him to make his father murder the Reisses. Going by his expressions, he’s not entirely okay with it, and the second they step into that cavern he knows that he’s at the hard part...
But he still does it.
He chooses to let the story play out as he knows it instead of allowing his father’s kindness to change the world.
I don’t know what Eren plans to do with the Founder’s power. Evidence points to him still wanting a better world for the people born into it. He disdains Zeke’s plan.
Nothing about this screams that this is what he wants. There’s a person in Eren still, recognizable as the young boy who wrapped a scarf around a cold girl’s neck.
Eren’s eyes are firmly on Mikasa and Armin when he walks his memories of them. He’s ignoring Zeke completely to stare at the warmth of his childhood. That isn’t someone who’s completely lost.
Yet he still pulls the trigger on this.
This isn’t what the Eren we’re familiar with would call freedom; adhering to what happened in the past just because it already happened.
Fight. If you don’t fight, you can’t win.
Zeke isn’t fighting, for all he’s holding back Eren.
Eren’s fighting something, but holding to the path already plotted instead of changing it.
I can’t imagine what Eren saw to push him this far. He’s not happy. He’s not winning. Not even over Zeke. He’s lost the love and confidence of everyone who has ever cared for him
Frieda only transforms after Grisha does. She waits for him. She waits to see if peace wins out.
The Attack Titan, as ever, has other ideas.
Not good ones. Just. You know. Different ones.
In conclusion Eren is a Billie Eilish fan.
#Shingeki no Kyojin#SnK 121#Eren Yeager#shingeki no spoilers#SnK spoilers#spoilers#tl;dr#chapter post
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1/3 YOU! I blame you for the fic idea that haunts me. A happier alternative to your AOB verse where in the midst of Bruce being presumed dead and Tim basically holding down all of Gotham as Robin while Dick is off doing something other than making sure the already suicidal boy is okay, the bit where Jason gets invited in to the Cave goes differently. Cause while Tim is dealing with the free-for-all that is a Batman-less Gotham like a Boss, things like food, sleep & hygiene has been abandoned.
2/3 Instead of hearing B’s last message to him and going of the deep end as a result, Jason picks up the faintest scent of Omega distressed/abandoned/desperation coming from Tim’s direction and comes closer, ready to mock and rag at the presumed beta for fooling around with some poor omega in this stressful situation. Except the scent only gets stronger, because Tim’s suppressants have worked hard over the years but this last death is just too much, Tim’s suppressants quit and retire to Florida.
3/3 Omega pheromones of unsexey desperation and painpainalonepackless come into the air as Tim belatedly backs up. And now Jason has to deal with Alpha instincts to comfort and Jason instincts yell at everyone, while Tim is weighing up his chances of escape while having three different breakdowns at the same time.I can’t decide if it all ends in cosy cuddling or smut… your thoughts and permission maybe for me to write this plus Dick’s belated entrance.
**
Hi babe.
Ah, permission?! WRITE THAT THING. Fuck yes! Take the world and make it your own. Take this storyline idea and tweak it your way, with your interpretation of Tim’s voice and Omega politics with spicy Alpha on the side. Give your Omega!Tim his own space somewhere and let him grow.
I know you’ll experience the same love and support from the fandom as I do because this idea just takes the fucking breath out of me it’s so good.
I love writing Tim still as Robin, and you already make me feel how he’s dragging some ass, still in mourning for B, and lost without Dick. He’s been working more nights than he can remember, and it’s all starting to catch up. He’s more vulnerable than he’s ever been, even when he was alone before, riding his own cases. It's worse because he doesn’t have B to fall back on like when he lost his mom and his dad. Even better he’s literally the only thing keeping the drugs, the gangs, the scary Rogue Gallery on their usual escapades, at bay.
But it’s not just about Gotham.
He’s riding with the Titans still, trying to coordinate missions from Gotham while he’s solving his own cases. Maybe Bart and Kon are still gone, so there could be new recruits in your world, or it could be he’s got them back, but still missing the Batman in Gotham so it’s not like he sees them outside of Skype sessions at three am with half-slurred life updates. He could at least have them as an excuse to keep going this long.
But he’s collapsed by the Batcomputer, beaten and battered, bruised and more than a little broken. His Pack is gone and all the security, all the safety, all the things he craves…just gone.
(Last one left standing, of fucking course.)
So his instincts are completely out of wack and he's physically pushed to the limits of his endurance. The stress and strain, the fact he’s made his body skip yet another Heat and his hormones are going crazy in retaliation. Of course the scent blockers fail because he’s sweaty and tired, dirty and worn, and he’s so close to nodding off, he doesn’t even realize the sweet tinge to the air is his natural scent (but to be honest, he’s hidden his orientation for years. It’s probably more sad that he’s forgotten his own scent). His eyes are blurry and his body sinking further in the chair, the throb of pain in his chest is suppressed whines, the Omega in him fighting to pick up the damn phone and call Dick just to hear the sound of his voice, but knows how upset the pack Alpha would be if Tim interrupted him while he was trying to keep Dami sane and safe.
Just the realization is enough to make his eyes get hot and full because fuck he’s so alone–
He hasn’t even closed his eyes all the way when he registers the purr of a Ducati already in the Cave proper. He’s swaying on his feet in time to see the Red Hood throw down the kickstand and swing a leg over.
Jay tosses the helmet, ready to give this little shit a piece of his motherfucking mind.
But the scent hits him in the face like a punch the second he breathes.
Timmy wouldn’t have brought an Omega here and the scent is too strong to be from contact, even fucking, so the detective puts it together just that fast. The Alpha in him, however, is almost crawling out of his fucking mouth, tearing at him to hold and soothe, feed and calm until that scent is gone.
“Jesus Motherfucking Christ. What did they do t’ ya?” Is low and gentle even if this guy seriously tried to slit his throat not that long ago. “Pretender…. Tim. Ain’t gonna hurt ‘cha, yeah? Just gonna make ya somethin’ ta eat, getcha a nice shower, sleep maybe a few hours, who the fuck knows?”
And while he’s talking, using his hands to keep the exhausted, overwrought Omega, he’s inching closer, a low purr starting in his chest, something that vibrates down Tim’s spine, makes his pupils dilate.
Either way you go, they could have such an epic fight after this. Just Tim fighting with will alone, fighting not to go down, probably riding panic and fear now that someone –that Jason Fucking Todd– knew his most dire secret.
it could very realistically end with Jason pretty much just defending himself, never trying to land a blow, keeps trying to talk Tim out of the fear, with the two of them by the glass case with Jay’s Robin tunic. And the bigger vigilante is wrapped around his smaller replacement, part-trapping him, part-holding him, rocking back and forth gently. He’s so far into his inner Alpha, all he can do is purr against Tim’s back and rub his cheek against the Omega’s so his scent would help soothe.
When Tim finally goes limp in his lap, Jason can unwind his cramping legs and stand with the Omega high in his arms and every intention of being a good Alpha.
>.
Ah, so there’s some ideas for you, babe.
WRITE THE THING :D
#omega!tim#alpha!jason#aob#tagged for anon#winter answers#because babe is going to write the thing#tim drake#jason todd#jaytim
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All of our questions were answered in RHATO #31! OR WERE THEY? (They weren’t, like at all.)
When we left off in #30, Jason was confronting the guy who claims to be Willis Todd in the basement of an abandoned creepy prison made over into some kind of drug distribution center/android factory/still a prison. That’s pretty much right where they pick up. Oh and also the cover says:
They really don’t, though. One guy dies. One. This cover was an outright lie. There are ZERO zombies in this issue! WHY WOULD YOU LIE TO ME LIKE THIS DC?
There’s a flashback of ‘Willis’ looking back on how Rebirth has gone so far and saying some pretty poignant stuff about how Gotham hasn’t treated Jason the way he deserves. I’m not going to lie, I’m really into the Jason as the promised son/savior allegories. The Damned Prince of Gotham is an iconic epithet.
THIS is where we left off, and we learn Willis is calling himself Solitary and starts calling Jason ‘son’ but Jay isn’t having it.
Jason, you’re like two or three years older than this kid. And you’ve been way worse than kidnapped when you were way younger. Seriously, it’s like he doesn’t even realize he’s traumatized.
ALSO, JayMig, you guys. He’s LEGAL. Ship ship ship ship ship....(it’s okay if you don’t get on my ship I’m just going to be weird over here in this corner...)
Solitary: You missed me! *crowbar wooshes past him*
Jason: I ain’t missed nuthin’! *crowbar hits Bunker’s prison-vat*
Solitary: Ulp! (no he literally said ulp! in one panel.)
Jason: You’ve been bamboozled, SON!
Classic Jason Todd.
I guess Solitary can control perception? I thought he was literally just omnipresent like he was literally everywhere and nowhere. That’s what he said to Ma Gunn, his ‘mother’. But whatever. This is Lobdell, he forgets what he’s doing halfway through doing it and just starts doing something else entirely.
Bunker is Mexican, if you guys didn’t know. It actually makes some sense that he’s here. in Mexico. Also, canonically gay.
( Ship ship ship ship ship )
Technically I’m not sure they actually met in that comic. It was a crossover event in New 52, Roy and Starfire and the Teen Titans (including Bunker) fought zombies, or something while Tim and Jason were captured by the Joker and Jason actually got to show off a little by psyching out the Joker and shooting him while blindfolded and breaking him and Tim out of trouble after getting kidnapped (those two sure do get kidnapped a lot when they are together...)
Also, SUPER REFRESHING for a hero to run into the Red Hood and be all, “Hey man, let’s be friends!” instead of immediately belike “What!? The Red Hood? Yuck, you’re a bad guy! Imma fight you!”
Dog has been around for 2 issues and she’s already the most useful teammate Jason has ever had. Jason and Dog, besties forever!
You really didn’t though, Jay. We have no idea who this guy is, how he got your old costume, what he wants or why he’s here. All we know is he wants you to go back to Gotham.
WHY CAN’T YOU BE HONEST WITH US!? WHO THE HELL ARE YOU!?
They were fighting right before this panel, and the fight was pretty good too, they seem to be evenly matched in terms of fighting ability. Maybe Wingman was slightly better, but Jason had a Doggo on his side so it evened out.
Unrelated, but I actually like this artist and what they are doing, everything looks really clean, the action is very readable and the anatomy is excellent, I’m not a fan of Jason’s haircut but luckily we already know he gets his longer hair back in an issue or two, thank god.
Solitary comes out as Jason’s dad. Apparently when he was in prison he volunteered for some experiments on people’s minds to try to get out early. We saw a little of this foreshadowed like ten issues ago. The experiments were done with tech stolen from Lex Luthor, so he hired Artemis to go fuck them up for stealing it and using it on people. In the fight it messed Wilis up and combined his mind with a few other inmates into his body or something. So that’s what happened to him.
I think it’s trying to be implied that this prison Jason is at where Solitary is operating out of was literally the prison where it all happened, but there are a few problems with that, namely 1) they don’t send American prisoners to Mexican prisons, and 2) that prison had water around it in the panels where it showed it happening and this prison is in the middle of a dessert so who knows what’s going on here.
Okay, so a Gotham thug getting a batman tattoo after coming out of a fight with him without going to prison is the kind of thing a Gotham thug would totally brag about. “See this scar? I got it from Batman, yo! And then I got a bat tattoo to commemorate it!”
Guess what though, Willis/Solitary doesn’t have the tattoo. SOLITARY ISN’T HIS DAD. Maybe this guy thinks he’s Willis but he’s actually not, he just has his memories or perceptions or whatever. He was one of the minds combined into this dude. This explains why Jason walked right past him more than once, he wasn’t really his dad (although with ‘perception’ powers it wouldn't actually have mattered even if he was). Jason has so many shitty wannabe dads it’s crazy. Batman, Solitary, Joker, Ra’s, get in line, folks.
Jason straight up kills this guy, no flinching. I love how Jason is so matter of fact about everything in this issue, Solitary says he’s his dad, and Jason is just like, “Okay, no, and I can prove it.” No melodramatic gasps or anything.
It amazes me that people seem to think Jason is so overemotional and angry all the time, and can’t get anything done because he’s too busy being mad, when he does shit like this without making any kind of deal about it or shouting or anything. Jason gets angry and emotional about ONE THING, and that’s his ACTUAL FAMILY BEING SHITTY TO HIM. A.K.A batfam stuff. Pretty much whenever he’s actually mad, and acting crazy it’s justified, he’s in serious emotional distress. He’s not some super angry murder boy all the time! I mean, he does murder people...but not because he’s just angry, it’s always a calculated move.
A slight time skip (a week).
*cries* WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO ME!?
I think Lobdell is as pissed off as we are that Roy was killed off in a stupid way for stupid drama. Because he’s been really selling us Jason being super sad and messed up about it and even tried to give him a good send off in the Annual. Like, I complain a lot about Lobdell, but at least I think he actually likes Jason and tries to do right by him in his stories, he’s just really scatterbrained about storylines sometimes. Like he needs someone to say, “Yeah, maybe not this, but this stuff is good.” That’s kind of the comics industry in general though, they don’t have anyone making sure characters act in character. They need someone vetoing some of the more stupid ideas, but they don’t seem to have any of that.
The New Outlaws! Red Hood, Bunker, Dog and Wingman.
Wingman is...some old guy. We see his face but it’s no one obvious. Clearly he has some connection to Jason. But he’s definitely not Roy, unless something REALLY weird is going on.
I still think there’s a good chance that he’s a future Jason from another dimension. But there’s also a chance that he’s Jason’s REAL FATHER since we know Solitary wasn’t. Hell, maybe he’s got the same powers Solitary had and it was him who went to see Ma Gunn before because she seemed pretty sure that guy was really Willis Todd, and he’s changing how he looks so Jay won’t know. We’ll see I guess.
And Bunker is just like, oh, you’re gonna go back to Gotham, fuck up Penguin and take all his stuff and start running a mob? I’m down. I don’t know his character (except that Lobdell created him and purposefully made him not angsty), I’m going to have to read some old Teen Titans, but I’m into it so far. He’s just super puppy-like, helpful, “I don’t know what’s happening but let’s be friends!” I can imagine Jason just blinking at him and being like, “Just...what even are you? Why are you so nice?! Why do you even like me!? Why are you even here!?” Miguel, all like, *shrug* “You saved my life and you’re hot?” Jason, “...well that’s a reason, I guess.”
YEEEEES. Tell me the old costume is making a come back! Also, Jason in a Trench Coat is the shit. He looks so sexy, you guys. I’m so ready for Mob Boss Jason. And Miguel is his gay right hand lover I mean man. YES.
( Ship ship ship ship ship )
Yeah, I’m getting so many “Wingman is from the future” vibes right now. He’s either Jason himself or someone he knows, but from the future/another dimension. Or maybe he can see the future.
Well, that was it. It was pretty good even if I was raising my eyebrows a few times at all the NOT explaining we were getting. I’m actually kind of excited for next issue though, you guys! Jason is going to mess up Penguin and take the Ice Burg Lounge, I’m so up for this!
#Jason Todd#Red hood#Red Hood And The Outlaws#Red hood outlaw#Issue 31#DC Rebirth#comics#dc comics#Wingman#Who the hell is he?#fuck if I know#But Jason-from-the-future is looking more and more likely#Solitary#Not Willis Todd actually#Miguel Barragan#Bunker#JayMig#It's my new ship you guys!#Dog#That's her name#Best teammate#Roy Harper#still can't believe he's dead#ranting about comics#commentary#meta#Damned Prince of Gotham#Spoilers#But not the actual Spoiler
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Favorite characterization of Dick Grayson
What's your favorite era or writer for Dick Grayson? What characterizations do you like or dislike?
Here are my opinions. I may ramble a bit. Sorry about that.
You can skip this paragraph if you don't care how I ended up here and which comics I’ve read - it's not particularly important, I just wanted to share. First, while previously having seen on-screen versions of Dick Grayson, and read a bit of DickBabs fanfic (Batman: TAS sold me on them before the show went directions I loathe), I never actually read any issues of DC until 2015ish. Had been a Marvel girl because they didn't do reboots, but then they destroyed Peter Parker's marriage and rebooted the universe, so I abandoned comics for a while. But then I saw some reruns of Young Justice cartoon. So I read some fic. Many fics incorporated comic characters. There I discovered Spoiler, who I really liked the idea of as Spoiler (someone who works against Batman's wishes and doesn't obey his orders and refused to back down, but isn’t a killer). So I read the Robin series for the first 100+ issues (quitting when I knew War Games was near because the storyline sounded bad). But that made me decide to read the Nightwing comic that stared in that era. Really liked that, and really liked Dick Grayson (on-screen portrayals had already lead me to favor him). Then Birds of Prey, Dixon-era, too. Then, because I liked Dick, the Original and New Teen Titans. Original was too Silver Age for me, but really enjoyed 1980-1986ish New Teen Titans (thought it went downhill after that, and abandoned when I reached 1990 issues). Also read assorted Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age comics. So I have relatively broad, but very shallow knowledge of most Bat-eras, with more in-depth knowledge of the '90s and much less of post-2000 (mostly fic, which isn't always representative of the comic).
While I have opinions on various Bat and non-Bat characters and storylines, I'm starting with Dick here. He was my favorite. It's so dependent on writing (as is ever character), and right now he’s Ric, and that is something I’m not interested in.
While I absolutely like aspects from other eras, and I dislike some aspects from these eras, my favorite time periods for Dick are probably 1980-1986ish and 1996-2000. There’s some good 70s stuff and I like certain dynamics of him as guardian/mentor to Damian (and some stuff with other family), but as whole, these two eras in his titles (Teen Titans and Nightwing) are my favorites. For his characterization as stand-alone (rather than his relationships with other characters).
Golden and silver age Dick merit a bit less discussion. Characters weren’t as distinct from each other back then. Nor, really, as consistent. But Dick was sometimes regarded as quite a mature young man in the golden age. Responsible, good grades, intelligent, etc. But so was Speedy - like I said, not much distinction. Despite some impressions, in the stories I read I did not notice Robin to make lots of puns or be unusually cheery and smiley.
Come to the mid-60s and Dick was so much a teenager. I mean the original Teen Titans fairly scream with it early on (so much slang, really folks). One writer I didn’t like had him behave like an idiot (I’m not the only one who thought so, judging by the letters pages, though opinions were split). Really, though, in the early original Teen Titans it felt like writer(s) were trying to push the “teen” thing too much, and they sometimes came off like caricatures. But it was a time in comics when stories and characterizations were shifting and there were, IMO, both failures and successes in trying to embrace new and different.
The ‘70s were okay. Some bits I liked, and some I didn‘t. Dick is usually responsible in Detective Comics stories. He did a little bit of playing the play-boy (with Silver), which isn’t my speed, since I like the idea that Dick, unlike Bruce, doesn’t put on a facade in day-to-day life. Had a few girlfriends - very normal and not either stunningly celibate or shockingly promiscuous. Though the entire 70s was one year of college for Dick.
I am not at all fond of the "goofy" Dick that seems to have popped up fairly often in the past 20 years. They often seemed to have seriously dampened his brainpower and detective skills (because Tim is the smart one and the detective and for some reason they can’t both be that). I’m not a fan of separate out all Batman’s skills and assigning one to each Robin. It makes the Robins all less than Batman and inferior to him and sets that they will never be his equals and that I do not agree with. Now this is by no means a *consistent* thing, but it does happen, and it does irritate me. I don’t like seeing characters diminished.
I really love old-school Dick. Back when he was young (late '70s to mid '80s), they showed us how mature he was (probably to contrast his youth and make him a viable peer to older heroes). Both Wally and Roy commented on it. Roy said how he always felt so much younger (issue where he got custody of Lian). Wally though Dick was always on top of things (Kory and Donna knew better). Heck, Terry's (Donna's ex) bachelor party was another fine example how much more of an adult he was than some men twice his age. He was pretty cerebral, a fantastic detective, a good fighter, etc. He could hang out and have fun, too, of course. He wasn't a stick-in-the-mud. He was too closed off and unwilling to talk sometimes (moreso with his team, and perhaps because he thought he needed to project confidence as a leader?). He was, in a reverse, quite willing to talk about other people's emotional issues. Sometimes as a friend, and sometimes as a leader. He behaved most immaturely when dealing with Batman, particularly as their relationship became more difficult - there were times when they brought out the worst in each other. Though it wasn't steady, of course.
We really got to see Dick as a leader in this era. Someone people respected and looked up to. Not that his team always agreed with him or that he was always right, but that but that he was a person that people did have trust in. And that he usually did a good job of deserving it. It’s not just other teenagers, though, but the older heroes respect him as well. It’s also the first time we a real, substantive romance - with Kory. Saw where he floundered and how he loved, and such. Which I thought worked well until it reached a point where I thought it needed to end, and it didn’t (or rather it did end, but didn’t stay ended). Readers who like the ship, though, will likely have a different perspective, if they are like me (I just blame the writing when this sort of thing happens with ships I prefer).
Batman: Year Three - not the best story. I don't remember most of it, to be honest. But one thing I really liked was the highlighted difference between Bruce and Dick. It hits that Dick is more emotionally healthy than Bruce. That Dick had the emotional support Bruce lacked as a child (I don't think continuity had yet settled on the idea of Alfred as a father-figure to Bruce). That could segue me into changes in Bruce's backstory and characterization, but I'll refrain. I will say that I preferred Dick with the nice-nuns orphanage to Dick-in-juvenile-facility (though I really, really like Dixon's run on Nightwing). It makes Bruce less of a "rescuer" of Dick, which I prefer. I do not like the idea that Dick was doomed to end up dead on street (or a criminal) if not for Bruce. Though I admit to preferring old-school Dick-goes-directly-to-Bruce's-home, no matter how unrealistic. I dislike the entire Talon thing even more. I hate the back-projecting of more angst and more terrible things, like his parents being murdered wasn't bad enough.
Now we come to Nightwing series. I really liked Dixon's run. I'm a DickBabs fan, so seeing them get together was great. I did read he wanted Dick/Donna, and I'm glad that didn't happen. Partially because I'm a DickBabs fan, but also because I really, really liked the platonic friendship between Dick and Donna during the New Titans. And I liked that it was platonic and that a friendship - rather than romance - could be so very important. I don't think friendships get near the credit they should as important relationships in fiction, and so often fans want them to be romantic. And the older I get, the more I value good fictional friendships and sibling relationships and so on. For the record, I also really liked the Vic/Gar friendship. And I still tend to think of Donna, rather than Wally as Dick's BFF. Though he has many friends.
Anyway, I really liked seeing Dick working on his own and having his own city. He was finding his own path and his rogues were being developed. I liked the idea of him as a cop, and I enjoyed Amy. I liked a lot of his banter with Barbara. But not just the banter, the serious stuff. Dick was looking for a real, long-term, serious relationship. And Barbara was the hesitant one - for understandable reasons. It's an everyday reminder of the things they used to do together. Things he can do that she no longer can. And she really wants to.
Of course, in this era, he was totally a big brother to Tim, a relationship he never really had with Jason (post-crisis). Now, Bruce's character was becoming worse and worse in this era, so that provided some conflict for Dick. Early in the series, Bruce wasn't that bad yet, and he and Dick had some nice bonding/reconciling moments. And so some of the issues were just on Dick's side. He has, since at least the Titans days, had a persistent need to prove himself Batman's equal. To others and to Batman. I was kinda peeved with Donna when she said he'd never be as good. He thinks Bruce thinks less of him on occasions when Bruce doesn't. But Bruce still treats him like an underling a good portion of the time. He expects Dick to take orders with no questions and doesn't give him full details of plans and doesn't listen to his opinions or consider Dick's needs. Way too often, Bruce just puts his goal ahead of everyone else. That's an issue with Bruce. But Dick feels like it's Bruce not seeing him as equal. Which it is, IMO, but mostly in the sense that Bruce tends to put himself/his goal above all others in terms of importance (a problem that has only gotten worse with time).
I wasn't real fond back-projection/retconning of the Dick/Babs relationship over the years. Or her de-aging. I like her at least 4 years older than Dick. With no involvement when he was in highschool. Flirtation when he was in college (1970s Batman family issues), sure, but nothing really happening until he's in Bludhaven and in his mid 20s and the 5-7 year age gap doesn't matter because they're both adults. I much prefer her pre-crisis background with Batman to the post-crisis one, but that's a topic for my post on her.
Then the Devin Grayson era - I don't agree with all the positions of the author, but I do agree about Devin Grayson: http://theflyingwonder.tumblr.com/post/107703923021/you-made-me-curious-and-i-couldnt-resist-it-tell and I think way too many of her aspects stuck with the character. Which I guess makes her a success, but doesn't work for me at all, because I don't like the character she describes at all and he is not Dick to me. I've read her interview on Dick Grayson and her perception of the character was just nothing like mine. She acts like he's not a thinker (even though got called too cerebral in the old days). She acts like Dick either "fights or fucks" everyone he meets, and totally disregards so many other types of relationships. Now, the Mirage-rape had already happened (and was horribly handled), plus the Raven-mind-controllish thing (also didn't work for me), but Grayson made Dick the sleeps-around type. That was specifically contradictory to earlier characterizations where Dick was the committed-relationship type - something he actually discussed with Roy at one point. I liked Dick being a relationship-only guy, it was a big contrast with Bruce (particularly post-Crisis Bruce). I don't like Dick being Batman-lite at all.
Not Devin Grayson, but Nightwing Annual #2 - ghastly. So incredibly out of character for who Dick was back then. Another not-my-review at http://theflyingwonder.tumblr.com/post/93534635531/can-you-explain-the-nightwing-annual-2-thing. Though I would go further in that it's reason I don't like post-Kory’s-political-wedding Dick/Kory. It felt like a lot of build up to "love isn't enough" and then he basically chunked his beliefs to stay with her, which makes the relationship a bad thing to me. Here's my less-well-worded thoughts when I read the wedding. http://tzigone.tumblr.com/post/170389768364/nightwing-and-starfire
So, Dick's life in Bludhaven was destroyed. His life as independent hero was destroyed. I enjoyed Dick with the Titans, but him in Gotham is a no-go to me. Because he goes back to being an appendage of Bruce. He's working in someone else's city, he's a subordinate (at least with Bruce is actually there).
I haven't read as much of the Dick/Damian relationship as I maybe should have. While interested in their dynamic, I'm not keen on Dick's wider characterization. I do not like lothario-Dick. And I do not like Batman-lite Dick. So I deeply disliked him taking Robin from Tim and giving it away without discussing it, just like Bruce did to him. Yeah. To top that off, I unlike many, did not like the first 12 issues of Red Robin, so there wasn't even pay-off. And then later we'd get Dick faking his death and hurting his family for the sake of the mission (Batman's mission). Too Batman-like. I do get incredibly frustrated with that no matter how badly he treats them, Bruce's "kids" keep coming back and following his orders. I didn't like his non-masked storyline, in N52, either. Sadly, at least Barbara (who I don’t like being a student of Bruce’s), Dick, and Tim have all adopted some of Bruce’s worse traits in regards to secrets and manipulation at one point or another.
But my biggest thing is that Dick all to often (not always, but even once is too often) gets treated like a joke. He's the lovable brother, and that part is okay. But he's all cuddles and cartoons and Disney and most of his maturity is just gone. This is heavy in fic, but it's present in the comics, too. At 19 he was man, and now he's a man-child. Not when he's working, I mean, but in personal life. Lex Luthor says he's not a big thinker and some people agree. And that is just totally wrong to me. For me Dick, while far from perfect, is a person that has earned and has respect not only from his peers, but from the first-generation heroes. And it just gets worse later. Late Pre-Crisis they de-age him and he's 21 in N52 (when it starts anyway). And I hated his de-aging, and Barbara's. It feels like they're being drug backwards and not allowed to grow up. Even though Barbara *started* grown up and Dick had pretty much been a man even during his endless year at Hudson. I don't like the idea of Dick as someone people don't take seriously. Bart or Booster, maybe is someone villains don't take seriously, but should. But Dick, at least as he reaches his adult years, should be someone that people (villains and colleagues) do take seriously and respect. Thought without the intimidation Batman has, at least with criminals. I will say I do think it was done partially to keep Batman from getting too old to do the job, but I still don’t care for it.
Don’t get me started on Dick and what he thought was Bruce’s body and the Lazarus pit.
I thought the entire issue with Dick and Bruce after Bruce’s failed wedding was bad. Dick tries to be the goofball. They try to redeem it at the end, but it falls flat because he was stupid enough to think it would help in the first place.
Some people seem to think it's the sweetest thing ever if Dick moves back to Gotham and lives in the manor and Bruce takes care of him, and that's just a no-go to me. It's infantilizing. He's grown up and should be allowed to grow up. I see a lot of infantilizing of Dick, Jason, Tim and Damian. I get why it's done (to see Bruce the dad), but dislike it intensely. It's demeaning to me. I like Bruce the dad, too. But he can be a dad to adult children and treat them like adults (well, the grown ones). And yes, like equals, but that it what I think the relationship between adult parents and children should be. Though it’ll be a long time before Bruce gets to a point where he’ll consistently do that.
Side note: the comments on Dick's body get a little old. I totally get that he's stunning. I'm cool with Kory or Barbara or his current girlfriend enjoying his body or complimenting him on it. But sometimes it seems like various characters (usually female) are discussing him like a piece of meat. Particularly frustrating when his hero colleagues do so. I know a good bit of this comes with me binge-reading, making it seem more often than when issues are read a month apart.
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while I can sort of understand throwing out the wedding for the sake of drama and plot movement... I really think dc using a batcat wedding like how they did was a really shitty move. it’s like you don’t play your best cards and throw them away. from here on out, dc will never be able to make a batcat wedding. it will never have the same feelings or suspense or happiness or long-waited build up. any future marriage will be intrisinicly doubted as fans will be thinking “they could easily ditch this like the last one”
so yeah, plot twists for the sake of building into another portion of a series? that’s cool. I’ve done it in my writing and many authors do. still, you need to be smart. you don’t play the biggest card, the one people will be most excited for, and just toss it away. you save it. you let it build slowly but obviously with the plot, and you have it happen once fans have waited forever. you let that moment be grand and everything it ever should be. you give it to the fans because they’ll trust you to do something right and people will stick around to see what they want to see. you don’t build it up strongly, throw it out, and use that twist as a catalyst. you don’t ruin the possibility of seeing a new side to a character with a storyline that offers very little character growth. it’s a waste of that moment and just leaves fans questioning if you can really write the character right.
and the reasoning being bruce can’t be batman and happy is so shit. like from selina, especially. you cannot tell me that the robins (and other batfamily members) don’t make bruce happy. you cannot tell me that selina does not see this happiness. you cannot tell me that batman isn’t a better batman because of his robins and his friends and his family and his support. BRUCE HAS BEEN BEING BATMAN WHILE BEING HAPPY! LET HIM GET MARRIED!
they make like we’ve never seen a sad or miserable or angry or broken batman before. like shit, I know heartbreak hurts and isn’t the same as grief from someone dying, but I’m pretty sure bruce will always find more hurt in the fact that... I don’t know... his parents died. jason died. stephanie died. damian died. dick died. (other people have also died but I’m not well-versed in the comics so those are the best I can recall right now)
again, I get it. being left at the altar isn’t the same as losing a child, but if bruce has found happiness after those deaths and still been batman, I REALLY DOUBT THAT
calling off the marriage introduces anything that’s truly new to his character or story line
bruce being happy automatically makes him a shit batman
plus imagine how much more you could explore with bruce and selina being married
PEOPLE ARE CHANGED WITH MARRIAGE there’s so much more compromise and communication required and there’s a lot of things that go unchanged until a little bit later
there’s opportunities to truly explore how bruce is change by this newfound happiness. how does it affect him as batman? we know a grieving bruce is an angry and violent batman. what about a happier bruce? do we see a change in batman’s ways? how does he become a BETTER hero as a result?
batman becoming a shitty hero after bruce finds happiness is just lazy writing. how many other heroes are happy and good at what they do? I’D SAY QUITE A LOT OF THEM! he doesn’t need to be constantly brooding to still be stoic and serious and stubborn and independent. he doesn’t need to carry the weight of the world and the grief of everyone he’s lost in order to kick ass and serve justice.
batman needs to be strong. batman needs to believe in what he can do and who he is. a batman with support is stronger, that’s why he has robin and the rest of the batfam. a batman with support is wiser, there’s someone there to come home to, to take care of, and that means better thinking it through and making the best choices. a batman whose married means a batman that isn’t always stressing out about every case as he has someone there to take breaks for, who puts his heart into making a better city so the people he loves can be safer, who believes in himself and all that he does because he has people in his life to remind him that what he does is good— it’s not perfect or necessarily the best, but it’s something.
bruce wayne is not made a worse batman by the people in his life and/or the happiness they bring. if written right, bruce wayne can be made an even greater batman through happiness in his life.
because if it was really about bruce and happiness, then why the hell does he have robins? why does he have the batfam and their support? why does he have friends in characters like clark and diana? why does he groups to work with and family like alfred? why does dc keep writing people that make bruce happy when happiness makes him a shitty batman?
bECAUSE THEY DONT!!!
you don’t keep writing new robins if they don’t make batman better. you don’t keep alfred around for a questionably long amount of time, if he doesn’t make batman better. you don’t add friends and extended family to be there when needed if they don’t make him a better batman. you don’t write a relationship for years iF IT DOESN’T MAKE HIM A BETTER BATMAN!
you want a shit batman? you give him happiness and tear it away. you make him so clouded by his grief that he sucks in the field, being too violent, too emotional, not level-headed and just. you isolate him and let him fall back into his comfort zone. you let him be static, an unchanging character that never grows and is never truly challenged. you write a hero that’s played so safe, he never feels like he’s doing enough.
if bruce is happy, then he has something to risk. if he has something to risk, every choice and action becomes more challenging to make. if he is challenged, he can learn and he can grow. if he grows, he is made a better person. if bruce is made a better person, then he sure as hell can be a better batman.
bruce is made a better batman BECAUSE of the happiness and love in his life and it appalls me that dc honestly thinks I’d believe otherwise
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With the release of Spider-Man: Homecoming a podcast I used to regularly listen to with panelists I used to respect did their two cents on the movie.
I say used to respect for a few reasons, but one of them is self evident by the podcast themselves.
They seemed to have forgotten/sold out big time on their grasp of Spider-Man’s character and mythology. It’s still better than most people but as their defences of Homecoming (though admittedly they weren’t as enthusiastic about it as everyone else) mounted in the episode I began to write them off more and more. To the point in fact where I wrote them an e-mail explaining both my POV and counterpointing many of their views. A few episodes later they seemed to have not covered what I wrote and I am now presuming they simply aren’t going to for whatever reason.
Nevertheless I felt very strongly about what they said and so will repeat here what I wrote to them, albeit with less polite asides.
Dear CBFR
If I am honest I have to disagree with a lot of what you guys said. That was code for ‘Were you guys on drugs during parts of this review’.
If I was grading the movie on its own I’d give it a solid B but as an adaptation it’d be a D at best.
It was a fun thrill ride but there have been way better MCU films. In fact the slapstick comedy moments of the film felt repetitive to me of other MCU movies, especially Doctor Strange. For record they were also pretty praising of Doctor Strange, which isn’t as bad when you consider they all had limited knowledge of Dr. Strange whereas they have been touted as Spider-Man experts, even claiming as much in the episode themselves.
However there was also one huge logic problem with the movie which underscored the movie as an adaptation. That was the critical scene where Stark lectures Peter and takes the suit away. The thrust of that scene and the whole movie is to make Peter think he’s nothing without the suit and then to realize that actually he doesn’t need it.
However this sentiment doesn’t really make sense when you consider that for most of the movie Peter hadn’t unlocked the suit’s extra features and was using it more or less as high tech cloth. Worse though, in Civil War we’d learned Peter had been working without the suit for months. Given that he still has all of his powers and had all this past experience it’s not exactly an honest story to have Peter realize he is more than just a fancy suit. Even if Peter has come to believe that due to his youth the audience know from earlier in the movie and Civil War that that’s clearly not true. As such it’s not really a good justification to hang your coming of age story on.
Beyond that there wasn’t much wrong with the movie.
However comic book films like this, at the very least when it comes to characters as big as Spider-Man, are frankly obliged to honor the spirit of the character’s source material even if they don’t do a word for word adaptation of it. A fact the panellists despite their self-proclaimed Spider-Man street cred seemed to not give a shit about. Chris did the same when it came to Guardians of the Galaxy, his favourite MCU/comic book movie that was ultimately a wretched adaptation of the Abnettt/Lanning source material he has also praised in the past.
That’s the bulk of my problem with this movie. It really goes against a lot of the spirit of Peter Parker. A spirit the panellists seemed to have forgotten about.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not demanding another origin movie or that this movie religiously adapt Ditko stories. And I understand the need to involve elements of the wider MCU in this film, including Iron Man. Nor am I saying this has to, as Chris said, be ‘a definitive Spider-Man movie’. Chris repeated this frankly shallow point more than once during the course of this review.
However the way the film goes about this is honestly a disservice to the character regardless of whether this film was trying to be a definitive take on Spider-Man or not. Certain changes and directions taken to be blunt do not belong in any Spider-Man movie. I imagine the panellists would disagree and argue the ‘adapt’ part of adaptation implies ANYTHING can be changed...which isn’t true the ‘adapt’ part of adaptation refers to changing the MEDIUM not any given thing about it.
Sorry to sound cliché but the biggest one of these was the high tech suit and Peter’s relationship with Iron Man and his motivation to be an Avenger.
I disliked the suit for most of the reasons you guys went into in your review but I disagreed with Chris that its present was justified by virtue of Homecoming not having to be a definitive take on Spider-Man. I agree it doesn’t have to be a definitive take but at the same time part of the spirit of the character is that he’s relatively ordinary so that level of high tech gadgetry to be honest doesn’t really belong in any given Spider-Man film.
As for Tony Stark, I’m not saying Iron Man shouldn’t have been in the film or that this was an Iron Man movie but Peter Parker, especially as a teenager, should categorically never have anything resembling a mentor or parental figure as far as his super hero life is concerned. A point the panel repeatedly mocked to the point of obnoxiousness was how some people called Homecoming Iron Man 4, which it wasn’t outside of a very abstract sense. But it was more Iron Man Junior than Spider-Man which somewhat justifies the criticism.
This is because a truly massive part of Spider-Man’s original conception was that he was effectively the first ever solo teen super hero. He wasn’t a sidekick like Robin or the token teenage team member like Johnny Storm. Josh of this podcast is a huge F4 fan and, along with Donovan, a huge Batman fan. So combined with their Spider-Man clout you’d imagine they’d have recognized this big aspect of the character’s history. But apparently not.
Not only was that a novelty at the time but it fed into his characterization because he essentially had to make mistakes and learn from them all on his own. He didn’t have somebody there to lecture or reprimand him as Stark did in this movie. Giving him a figure like that, even one who isn’t there all the time changes that dynamic and infantilizes a character who had to grow up faster than most people in the wake of losing his actual father figure. It was also a fairly subtle appeal to the idea of teen rebellion, something popular in the 1960s. Along with his F4 and Batman knowledge Josh is a huge Beatles fan, the band being touted as part of the counterculture of the 1960s. He even once made note of all the times Spider-Man stories have referenced the Beatles. So again you’d think he’d have recognized this aspect of Spider-Man and taken it into account when evaluating how Homecoming eviscerated it. But no.
I am aware this direction for Spidey has some precedent from the Civil War storyline and Ultimate comics but I do not really see why that is a viable justification.
A concept having precedent in the source material doesn’t necessarily justify including it in an adaptation. Contexts can be different and concepts can be rotten in the first place.
In the Ultimate Universe you could just about get away with Nick Fury as Peter’s father figure/mentor because the Ultimate Universe by that point had made it clear it was the experimental side universe where things could be different for the sake of being different. One of the panellists, I think Donovan, has expressed his love for the Ultimate Spider-Man series and backed up the idea that Nick Fury was a huge part of that series.
Personally I still think making the head of SHIELD Peter’s pseudo-mentor figure was a bad direction given Spider-Man’s concept as a relatively ordinary person who is also a super hero. But fans could roll with it because USM existed tangentially to the mainstream version that people did expect to be more definitive. That’s why people who weren’t that upset over Nick Fury over in USM were rubbed the wrong way when Peter moved in with the New Avengers in 616.
Although Spider-Man: Homecoming didn’t have to be the definitive Spider-Man movie in every way possible, it is now the primary version in the public consciousness and part of the closest thing to the definitive take on the Marvel universe as a whole. That drastically changes the context from what the USM comic was.
I know the big defence of the Avenges/Iron Man thing is Spidey’s attempt to join the F4 in ASM #1 and his growing up in a world where the Avengers exist but I’m afraid I don’t buy this justification either. This is another case where the fans street cred is undermined. Not only is Josh an F4 fan but both he and Donovan actually used to be part f a podcast covering Ditko/Romita Spider-Man and ASM #1 referred to here was part of literally their first episode. Even putting that aside, all three panellists have definitely read ASM #1 but seemed to ignore the important context and nuance of the situation that actually undercuts their arguments.
In ASM #1 Peter tried joining the F4 purely for the sake of getting money to provide for himself and Aunt May, he wasn’t really in awe of them and he wasn’t driven by a desire to join the big leagues. And although they didn’t debut when he was a child the F4 were famous big time superhero celebrities, with Reed Richards already being a famous scientist years beforehand. Additionally Peter was never in awe of Captain America during their interactions in the Silver Age despite Cap’s legendary status.
Because of this whilst it isn’t illogical that Peter could be in awe of the Avengers it also isn’t unrealistic that he wouldn’t be driven by a desire to live up to them like he is in Homecoming. After all if he was you do have to question why he never tried to join them before Civil War or why he would bother going into show business when he got his powers?
At the end of the day though I really feel the spirit of the character is more important than pretty much all the other aspects of the movie. Like I said that doesn’t mean you have to be word for word accurate but if a big part of who Spider-Man was as a teenager was his independence as a superhero then the MCU films should do their best to make that fit into their universe not ignore it and make Spider-Man an aspiring Avengers fanboy desperate for approval.
It’s not like going with that would be a bad movie. Spider-Man could be butting heads with Iron Man due to his disagreement with the Sokovia Accords and his belief that the little guy on the street actually gets ignored by the Avengers, thus justifying guys like him or the Defenders.
My other major problems with this take on Spider-Man is that it’s clearly influenced by both the USM cartoon version of Spider-Man and Miles Morales.
I’m sure Don could speak to the Miles influences better than me but personally I find it a huge disservice to both characters to mix and match them like this. Don goddam LOVES Mild Morales and sees precious few problems with his character, he regards Mild as his main Spider-Man currently. Peter Parker has 50 years of history to draw from so borrowing elements from Miles is totally unnecessary. But for Miles it’s even worse because it means film audiences might see him as ripping off aspects from Peter. Whilst they called out the use of Ganke as Ned Leeds in this movie, none of the panellists, who have ALL read Miles stories, mentioned the OTHER Miles Morales elements implanted into Peter...even though Donovan DID mention them when asked about it separately. He straight up said the following:
the whole comparing himself to other heroes was way more Miles than Peter...Peter would make off-hand references to the MU, but it wouldn't stick in his mind...lemme put it this way: If Peter's mantra is Power and Responsibility, Miles' mantra is living up to the standard of the other heroes...the whole "I was trying to be like you!", Peter Parker has never said that before...
As for the USM cartoon take it from someone who suffered through more than a full season of the show (which to my understanding is far more than any of the panellists ever tried), this movie was under the impression that a bumbling screw up Spider-Man is the best thing ever.
Much like in the show a lot of the time problems are caused or exacerbated by Spider-Man’s intervention precisely because he is played as so out of his depth and incompetent.
The ferry scene is the biggest example obviously as the lesson being pushed was that Spider-man should have just left it alone. Most of the action sequences push this idea in fact to the point where had Peter been smarter listened to Tony and ignored the crises he saw things would’ve gone better.
This is really problematic for Spider-Man’s character not least because his origin story hinged on him ignoring a situation and it having terrible consequences.
More generally though Spider-Man is simply not as incompetent or bumbling as the movie put him across as. Showing him as inexperienced and capable of occasional missteps would have been relatively new to the movies, but in this film his missteps are most of his character. He rarely makes the right call as a superhero and he rarely avoids tripping over himself or coming off as an idiot.
It’s a far cry from say the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon where the character was both a teenager and even less experienced but wasn’t a buffoon despite being imperfect.
There is a lot more I could say but I realize I’ve gone on long enough at this point.
Basically, I enjoyed this as a movie but it was unacceptably bad as an adaptation and we deserve better in future instalments.
I actually cut a load of stuff I wanted to say and have now deleted it. off the top of my head though I called them out for themselves not sufficiently calling out the disservice done to Mary Jane’s character. The fact that Chris justified the movie on the basis of adapting the crappy USM cartoon, the crappy Iron Spider era of the comics (which only worked at best as a tangent to what Spider-Man should be at default) and the USM comics which I have already called out. What I wanted to say but didn’t was that their review was profoundly disappointing.
#Spider-Man#spider-man: homecoming#marvel cinematic universe#mcu#marvel#marvel comics#peter parker#the spectacular spider-man animated series#Ultimate Spider-Man#Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon#Avengers#Iron Man#Tony Stark#the avengers#defenders#Luke Cage#Daredevil#fantastic four#fantastic 4#Nick fury#Miles Morales#Ganke Lee#Ned Leeds#mjwatsonedit#MJ Watson#mary jane watson#Mary Jane Watson Parker
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