wesavegotham

[wesavegotham]

You've been gone for a long time. Are you okay? 😥

I'm fine, just kinda lost interest in comics for now. Doesn't mean it won't come back. I got back in a lot of stuff I was into before DC comics that is currently coming to an end (some books, some manga and a few shows), and I'm currently more interested in those so I haven't kept up much with current comics.

But maybe with the right book I will get invested in DC comics again? Who knows?🤷‍♀️

[wesavegotham]

"Talia can never be redeemed and her romance with Bruce can never come back because *falls for Grant Morrison's/DC's extreme racism towards asian and arab characters in the 2000s/2010s"

Yeah, sorry, but shut the hell up. It never fails to astound me when DC actually tries to fix the mistakes they made with Talia/the al Ghuls in general these last two decades and the fans manage to be even worse than DC by clinging to the blatant racist/sexist writing of the past instead of embracing the turn for the better.

"But she did this and that!"

She's a fictional character in a fictional universe that is aware that it goes through continuity changes/retcons. What Grant Morrison did to her character was a a complete retcon of her 30 year history and characterization with zero respect for her. Why am I supposed to take Morrison's bullshit as gospel and reject any attempts to fix her from writers who know better?

#talia al ghul #fuck grant morrison #I'm fine btw #Just not really keeping up with comics right now #It's just that not a lot of interesting stuff is going on #because apparently the DC comics fandom is forever stuck in the 2000s #And the things that annoy me...well its more or less always the same #I'm not sure if there is much new to say #The main Batman book somehow manages to be one of the worst Batman books #Once again the writer is a Tim fan who doesn't even try to be subtle about their favoritism #and fans will bring up crap from Morrison's run to justify their terrible takes even almost 20 years later #Seriously how the hell do people still manage to write edgy fanfictions about “Dick firing Tim as Robin and trying to sent him to Arkham” #Which isn't even what happened at all #Over 15 years later? #Is there really nothing else to write about???

[wesavegotham]

You can't even tell me that Zdarsky is doing this to honor the fact that Bruce and Damian have a Batman and Robin book coming out right now, their dynamic is completely different in that book and Zdarsky had no problem writing Zur influenced Bruce abandoning Damian during Gotham War, which made no sense if he cared one bit about what Williamson was doing.

What was even the point of Bruce abandoning Damian in Gotham War if he's now written to be just as loyal to Zur/Bruce afterwards anyway? You would think Zdarsky's Damian's lesson from that was that even if he does everything his father asks of him that it will not stop him from abandoning him just like he did to the ones who stood against Bruce. But no, apparently Zdarsky's Damian is dumb enough to still think that if he just keeps siding with who he believes to be his father that he'll not be abandoned. Against his VERY recent experience, written by the SAME writer in the SAME book.

I just don't get it, why is Zdarsky writing everyone to be so freaking stupid?

#damian wayne #bruce wayne

[wesavegotham]

It's especially baffling because Damian is actually selling as a character and Tim is, for all we know, not. Despite DC's numerous attempts at making Tim work again, even going so far to take away Damian as far away from Gotham as possible for several years and making Tim Robin again in his absence, they are not able to recapture Tim's "glory days", while Damian is constantly being sabotaged and somehow still doing better than him.

And it's writing like in Zdarsky's run that makes it obvious that the claim that having two Robins isn't damaging to the characters is simply wrong. Tim clinging to the Robin role even though there already is another one using the mantle (remember when Tim used to say he's only planning on being Robin until another one comes along?) makes Tim look like he's unable to grow up, move on with his life and to just let Damian be Batman's partner in peace. He's also not seen as the main Robin by the majority of fans because most people know deep down that there is no real future for Tim as Robin, it should be Damian turn now and even if Damian disappeared at some point DC will introduce a new Robin. Tim needs to move on eventually. For Damian it creates the problem that if Tim is the "good" Robin and "the best partner for Bruce" etc then a lot of writers will resort to making Damian the "bad" Robin to contrast the two. He gets written as an unreliable partner, the one who fucks up and then Batman has to face the consequences to save the bad Robin from his mistakes. The one who doesn't "get" Bruce and the mission like the good one does. It sucks. It's annoying. It makes Damian fans dislike Tim even more. DC has been doing this for years and it's not working.

...please tell me Damian is simply super undercover and not just truly that braindead...

Was the last thing Zdarsky read with Damian in it Teen Titans (2016)? Otherwise I can't explain myself where Zdarsky would get the expression from that modern Damian still thinks like this. And even in that comic Damian knew that his father would be extremely against his methods, that was pretty much the point of the book.

I've talked about this...I think it was during Gotham War, but it really sucks how when it's about Tim Zdarsky (and other writers) portray being loyal to Batman as a positive thing, but when Damian is being used it's often portrayed as him being dumb and a terrible Robin. Like, fuck off Zdarksky, Damian knows his father. Only a few months ago he didn't hesitate to stab Insomnia in Bruce's form the second he noticed something was off:

And now Damian falls for Zur that easily? Usually this would be an undercover plot, but with how terrible and dumb everyone was in Gotham War I'm really not sure Zdarsky deserves that much trust.

His Damian might just be that dumb/bad and oh, wonderful, the solicitations for June make it sound like Bruce will have to give up on being Batman to get Damian out of Zur's clutches! How exciting! Of course for something negative like that we can't use Tim even though he was the Robin Zdarsky focused on pre-Gotham War, no, Tim can only be used when it's about something positive like saving Bruce😑

Do these writers think we readers don't pick up on their blatant favoritism?

[wesavegotham]

...please tell me Damian is simply super undercover and not just truly that braindead...

Was the last thing Zdarsky read with Damian in it Teen Titans (2016)? Otherwise I can't explain myself where Zdarsky would get the impression from that modern Damian still thinks like this. And even in that comic Damian knew that his father would be extremely against his methods, that was pretty much the point of the book.

I've talked about this...I think it was during Gotham War, but it really sucks how when it's about Tim Zdarsky (and other writers) portray being loyal to Batman as a positive thing, but when Damian is being used it's often portrayed as him being dumb and a terrible Robin. Like, fuck off Zdarksky, Damian knows his father. Only a few months ago he didn't hesitate to stab Insomnia in Bruce's form the second he noticed something was off:

And now Damian falls for Zur that easily? Usually this would be an undercover plot, but with how terrible and dumb everyone was in Gotham War I'm really not sure Zdarsky deserves that much trust.

His Damian might just be that dumb/bad and oh, wonderful, the solicitations for June make it sound like Bruce will have to give up on being Batman to get Damian out of Zur's clutches! How exciting! Of course for something negative like that we can't use Tim even though he was the Robin Zdarsky focused on pre-Gotham War, no, Tim can only be used when it's about something positive like saving Bruce😑

Do these writers think we readers don't pick up on their blatant favoritism?

#damian wayne

[wesavegotham]

I just stumbled upon a discussion centered around the question why Tim Drake is so "hated" these days by some parts of the fandom and it literally took 5+ pages in that thread for someone to bring up the fact that during the time some Tim fans claim Tim got "mistreated" by DC (Bendis trying to make Drake his new hero identity and giving him a brown costume) Dick had amnesia and went by Ric after Tom King wrote him getting shot in the head for shock value in Batman and editorial's mandate for Damian was to kick him out of the Robin mantle dishonorably so they could turn him into the next Hitler in 5G to make Jon and Luke Fox look better (and so Tim could be Robin Eternal).

I have a lot of reasons to be annoyed by Tim/his writers/his fans, but one thing that really never stops baffling me is the sheer ignorance/entitlement.

You think Tim naming himself after a male duck, wearing a lame brown costume or dating a cardboard like Bernard is character assassination?

Read Batman and Robin 2011, Robin: Son of Batman, Super Sons and then read Teen Titans 2016. THAT is character assassination.

#damian wayne

[wesavegotham]

Isn't this basically just what happened in City of Bane?😅 Bruce fighting an evil Batman and Damian's life being danger even though he was pretty irrelevant to the plot before?

The cover makes it look like Bruce's secret identity will be outed or like he will be forced to resign to save Damian and I don't really like how often Damian is used to make Bruce lose something. Like we already had DC trying to blame Alfred's death on Damian and Bruce died protecting him against Nezha in Batman vs Robin, give it a rest. Or at least make their relationship feel important before Damian needs to be rescued again? So far this run focused on Bruce and Tim so why don't you just use Tim for this?

This is what I mean when I write that I don't feel like Damian being Bruce's son is really all that of an advantage for him. A lot of comic writers just go "fuck it, he's his son, I don't need to elaborate on their relationship/dynamic, they simply care about each other and even if Damian messes up it's not like Bruce will ever fire him" so it often comes across as if Damian doesn't add much to Bruce's life or even makes it worse. Which is a shame because if you read Batman and Robin 2011 you see that Damian makes Bruce look to the future instead of to the past. Bruce clings to the death of his parents a lot and while the other bats provided him with hope for the future through being his found family Damian gave Bruce back hope by showing him a future for the Wayne family he probably didn't see before.

#damian wayne #bruce wayne

[wesavegotham]

Of course the "why doesn't Batman use his money to fix the system instead of punching the mentally ill" twitter argument is dumb and missing the point (Bruce is not a real person, he did invest a lot of money into helping people in need when he was still rich, it's an action comic, which means violence is going to happen and Gotham is not meant to be fixed, if it was fixed there would be no story), but these past few runs have deconstructed Bruce so much that the people of Gotham or public figures like mayor Nakano thinking Batman is a menace do actually have a point.

I mean, who has Bruce been fighting this entire run? Failsafe and Zur, two evil Batmen of Bruce's own creation. And even in the runs before Zdarsky it was kind of a running theme that Bruce wasn't fighting to save the city from an strange threat, he was fighting someone who had a bone to pick with him for one reason or another. I get that this is supposed to make the story feel more personal, but if you're also constantly asking the question "is Batman doing more harm than good?" then the answer might eventually be "more harm" if you had to be honest. A lot of the many recent takeovers of Gotham had nothing to do with Gotham, they were all about Bruce.

Superhero comics kind of need to have what their protagonists are doing to be helpful though. Of course Batman is not ever going to stop crime in Gotham. But if things don't improve at all or get even worse? Then what did Bruce and his family members sacrifice so much for? And if you seriously think their struggles should have been for nothing because the idea of heroes saving the day is stupid then why are you even writing superhero comics?

#I remember an issue of Tomasi's Tec run in which Bruce told Damian about crime statistics that showed that what they were doing was helping #Of course the idea of Batman helping crime rates go down in real life is ridiculous #just like the idea of the death note reducing crime is dumb #as if committing a crime was driven by logic #a lot of the times people are desperate #mentally ill #or not in their right state of mind #but for the story to work you need Batman to have some positive impact #If not he's really just a lunatic who endangers himself and others to pursue a childish take on justice #and that shouldn't be the goal

[wesavegotham]

There is also just something about the Joker talking about breaking Bruce this issue that really annoyed me.

How many Batman runs have been about "breaking Bruce/Batman" in a row now? Hasn't this been all writers could think of since Morrison did it? We get it, Bruce will always get up again, focus on something else already. Like an actually good detective story or something. Anything! Just stop trying to break Batman. We know he's not going to break no matter how many supporting characters you are throwing under the bus to hurt him.

I have my own gripes with people who cling to nostalgia, but sometimes I think the last few years have removed Bruce from the status quo people know too much and if the current trend continues I'm not sure what the next writer could even take from him to break Bruce. He has lost Alfred, his fortune, Wayne Manor, Wayne Enterprises, one of his hands, his family (depending on what book you are reading)...even killing him would be lame because of all the recent arcs that had the people of Gotham believe Batman was dead.

Maybe just go back to basics, give Bruce a few things he lost back, try to write interesting stories about Batman fighting his rogues gallery, have Bruce be a mentor/father to the members of the batfamily and let the whole "we need to break Batman" stuff rest for a few years. Just find another goal for your Batman run that isn't "I'm going to break him". God.

#I know some people weren't fans but a reason a lot of people liked Rebirth was because it returned characters back to a status quo they like #Not that Rebirth Batman was good I still despise King's run #But the general idea of Rebirth sounded good to a lot of people #There is literally no point to “breaking” Batman #I know he's not going to give up #Or kill someone #Or die #So if you want me to get excited confront him with choices where I'm actually not sure what he would do

[wesavegotham]

Sorry if I seem unreasonably annoyed by this (I know I am), but...like what is the point of Zur influenced Bruce abandoning Damian in Gotham War even though Damian had been nothing but loyal (and you know...having a whole damn team-up book with Bruce that makes no sense if Bruce abandons him) and then trying to recruit him back to his side? What is going on in Zur's brain? What does he gain by doing this? He has all of Bruce's knowledge, all of Failsafe's power and he has no reason to care about Damian or the concept of Batman and Robin.

It feels like literally the only reason this is happening is so Zdarsky can eventually have a good B&R vs bad B&R fight and if things just happen because a writer wants to get to a certain plot, but doesn't know why the characters would even get in that situation, it's simply bad writing.

Why does Zur want Damian back anyway? He's in Failsafe's robot body now and Failsafe defeated EVERYONE in Zdarsky's first arc, it's not like he absolutely needs to convince them that he's the real Bruce. Zur was also the one who convinced Bruce to abandon Damian during Gotham War even though Damian hadn't even betrayed him😅

Failsafe is seemingly invincible and according to this run Zur is Batman without Bruce's humanity and the batfamily only gets in his way. Why would he want or need a sidekick? Is he worried Bruce might escape and hopes to use Damian as some kind of hostage?

#will this turn into Gotham War 2.0? #everyone is acting like a dumbass because the plot demands it? #fuck motivation! #Or logic! #Sorry but there is literally nothing Zur gains by convincing Damian he's the real Bruce #Zur in Failsafe's body is so overpowered what would Damian have to offer that would be useful to Zur #everyone is so dumb in Zdarsky's run #“Could this be the real Bruce” he's acting like a fascist you idiot of course it's not Bruce #why is this even a question #And why would Zur care if they think he's real or not they can't do anything against him anyway #Again #Failsafe won against the damn JL in the first arc and it was easy #the batfamily got captured by him #They are no threat to him #It doesn't matter what they believe

[wesavegotham]

Is this going to end with Damian getting his own Zur backup personality? Do we really need another reason for writers to use him as an antagonist? We already have this whole "oh, his mother's family is evil", "he's connected to demons", "he's destined to doom Gotham/the world" shit, do we really need more?

Why does Zur want Damian back anyway? He's in Failsafe's robot body now and Failsafe defeated EVERYONE in Zdarsky's first arc, it's not like he absolutely needs to convince them that he's the real Bruce. Zur was also the one who convinced Bruce to abandon Damian during Gotham War even though Damian hadn't even betrayed him😅

Failsafe is seemingly invincible and according to this run Zur is Batman without Bruce's humanity and the batfamily only gets in his way. Why would he want or need a sidekick? Is he worried Bruce might escape and hopes to use Damian as some kind of hostage?

[wesavegotham]

Why does Zur want Damian back anyway? He's in Failsafe's robot body now and Failsafe defeated EVERYONE in Zdarsky's first arc, it's not like he absolutely needs to convince them that he's the real Bruce. Zur was also the one who convinced Bruce to abandon Damian during Gotham War even though Damian hadn't even betrayed him😅

Failsafe is seemingly invincible and according to this run Zur is Batman without Bruce's humanity and the batfamily only gets in his way. Why would he want or need a sidekick? Is he worried Bruce might escape and hopes to use Damian as some kind of hostage?

#damian wayne #bruce wayne

[wesavegotham]

Oh no, I was already kind of worried because it sounds like Damian will become Zur's sidekick, but then I read someone's post predicting that this will end with Bruce and Tim teaming up to fight Zur and Damian. Good Batman and Robin vs bad Batman and Robin. And you know what, that prediction sounds very plausible to me.

#damian wayne #bruce wayne #tim drake

[wesavegotham]

Wait, I didn't think about this too hard last night, but is he seriously trying to convince Damian that he's really Bruce by telling Damian something only Bruce would know...but we never saw Damian having nightmares and Bruce staying with him until he fell asleep after Damian moved in with him? So this is kind of a weird thing to write?

At first Bruce only yelled at him and locked him in his room, when Damian joined the batfamily for real Damian seemed to have been left in Alfred's care and Bruce got lost in time. After he returned he left Damian in Dick's care so he could travel around the world and set up Batman Inc and when he finally started to act like a father towards his son Damian didn't seem to be having trouble sleeping, but he did seem to have an issue with Bruce touching him/being near him:

We saw Damian having nightmares shortly before his death:

But in that case we also saw him falling asleep alone and when Bruce did come into his room it was after Bruce had had a nightmare on his own and Damian was already peacefully asleep again.

Would it really have been so hard to read a few issues of Batman and Robin (2011) and simply pick something that actually happened? It would have been a great opportunity for a callback to a previous book and sold the whole thing better.

Not sure why, but for a few years now DC seems to want to sanitize their early relationship so Bruce was a loving father to Damian from the moment they met, but what I liked about their relationship was that it started with lots of issues and that it took time and effort on both sides to build a proper father-son-relationship.

Not really caught up with current comics, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but is Damian seriously being written to be the only one dumb enough to think this is Bruce?

I know Zdarsky said he likes Damian, but his writing doesn't really show it. His Damian always comes of as a child too naive to question their parent and while Damian is quite loyal to his father in most comics he's also usually questioning Bruce quite a lot. So writing him as the only one too loyal/dumb to recognize that his father is not acting like he should is weird.

#damian craved Bruce's respect and acceptance when they first met #but Bruce didn't want to deal with him #when Bruce returned and did want to have a relationship with him Damian resented him for his previous distance #I simply don't see early Damian wanting Bruce to sit with him until he could fall asleep

[wesavegotham]

There is just a fundamental difference between a writer you trust doing something unusual/different with a character you care about and a writer you don't trust doing the same thing.

With the first option I feel like they love and know the character like I do and will probably do something cool and rewarding in the end (even if it might not turn out to be exactly my cup of tea). With the second option I'm worried they will fuck over the character and nobody will care enough to fix it.

#Also so many writers say they like a character #Waid said he liked Damian and then demonstraded how little he knew about him #It doesn't mean anything #I mean who would respond to being asked if they liked the character they are currently writing by being honest #and saying they either don't care or even hate them #Nobody of course

[wesavegotham]

Oh and I would be down to believing that Damian is just playing along to get more information or something, but the solicitation for Batman #147 hints that Damian is going to join Zur as his sidekick for some reason and...after Gotham War I just don't have a lot of confidence in Zdarsky's writing for Damian😅

Even if there is a twist in the end I'm not sure if its worth it. I'm just tired of Damian getting punished by the narrative no matter what he does.

Not really caught up with current comics, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but is Damian seriously being written to be the only one dumb enough to think this is Bruce?

I know Zdarsky said he likes Damian, but his writing doesn't really show it. His Damian always comes of as a child too naive to question their parent and while Damian is quite loyal to his father in most comics he's also usually questioning Bruce quite a lot. So writing him as the only one too loyal/dumb to recognize that his father is not acting like he should is weird.

[wesavegotham]

Not really caught up with current comics, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but is Damian seriously being written to be the only one dumb enough to think this is Bruce?

I know Zdarsky said he likes Damian, but his writing doesn't really show it. His Damian always comes of as a child too naive to question their parent and while Damian is quite loyal to his father in most comics he's also usually questioning Bruce quite a lot. So writing him as the only one too loyal/dumb to recognize that his father is not acting like he should is weird.

#damian wayne #bruce wayne #like this is the child that straight up left Bruce without Bruce firing him #and why are characters like Tim and Dick usually rewarded for blind loyality and Damian is being shit on for it #what is he supposed to do? #The writers make it sound like he's making the wrong choice no matter what he does #And it's annoying