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samasmith23 · 6 months

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Retconning the Retcon: How the High Evolutionary unnecessarily complicated the Spider-Man: Clone Saga

I honestly NEVER understood why Gerry Conway felt the need to retcon his own writing from the Original 1970s Clone Saga by stating in Spectacular Spider-Man (1976) Annual #8 (which was part of a crossover event from the late 80s called The Evolutionary War), wherein a supervillain called the High Evolutionary revealed that the Jackal (aka, Miles Warren) never actually created any clones of Peter Parker or Gwen Stacy, but instead that Professor Warren mutated his old assistant Anthony Serba and a student named Joyce Delayne into near-perfect replicas of Peter & Gwen with some sort of "DNA virus" that he created:

When I first read what the High Evolutionary said above, my immediate reaction was this:

"Nope! Nuh-Uh! I don't buy it for one minute! DNA does NOT work like that! DNA is NOT Lego Bricks! The idea that a literal college professor created a virus so advanced that can completely alter a person's genetic make-up to resemble a completely different person down to the smallest molecule is somehow even less scientifically plausible than human cloning!"

Needless to say, this retcon created a ton of problems for the writers & editors who worked on The Clone Saga of the 1990s when Ben Reilly was reintroduced into the Spider-Man mythos. Heck, the entire reason the Jackal was controversially resurrected during the Saga as well wasn't simply to provide more misdirections and red-herrings for the characters and readings (poorly I might add...), but also to try and undo Conway's retcons from the Evolutionary War crossover since it would have still been fresh in reader’s minds at the time. At least that's what editor Glenn Greenberg implied in "The Life of Reilly" essay:

However, both writers Howard Mackie & Terry Kavanagh were unable to satisfyingly address these continuity contradictions in either adjective-less Spider-Man (1990) #56 or Web of Spider-Man (1985) #125 respectively, other than quickly suggesting that the High Evolutionary simply just lied about the DNA virus bullcrap before quickly moving on.

It took an entire annual issue in the form of Scarlet Spider Unlimited #1 by writer Glenn Herdling to finally fully address and correct all the plot holes generated by the Evolutionary War crossover, essentially retconning the retcon. It was now revealed that the Jackal was a former assistant of the High Evolutionary who stole some of his superior's technology for his cloning experiments, but when the High Evolutionary discovered this he lied about the clone's existence by making up the DNA virus bullcrap through forged journals of Professor Warren's.

While Scarlet Spider Unlimited #1 did get pretty goofy in areas, such as revealing that there's an entire group of mutated animal people created by the High Evolutionary which secretly worships the Jackal like a god, the issue did at least finally acknowledge and put the High Evolutionary retcons to rest in a satisfactory manner. At least in my opinion as well as editor Glenn Greenberg's...

I still don't understand why Gerry Conway felt the need to go back and retcon the original 1970s Clone Saga in the first place though, especially since he himself wrote it?

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measuringbliss · 9 months

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Spider-Man Read-Through 025: L to the OG (Clone Saga) (ASM 141-150) P1

MASTERPOST

In this batch! Mysterio! The Jackal's identity revealed! THE DEAD SPEAK! And a ton of angst, naturally. But more importantly...

To my absolute delight, the Spider-Mobile hasn't disappeared. I thought it was a one-off thing, but turns out it seems here to stay!

...At least, that's what I thought, until Spidey crashed his bungie in the New York Bay. Hmm! Wasn't there an alley there, instead of the ocean, Spidey and the readers wonder? Is this the tragic end of the Spider-Mobile?

Later, Peter falls asleep in class (very relatable), and Prof. Warren is there to try and keep him from sinking. I love his vest and tie combo by the way. Also, yeah, Peter still goes to university! His classes are so rarely depicted that you'd be forgiven for forgetting about it.

MJ's back, baby! And she keeps objectifying Peter, to our greatest pleasure.

We also get great scenery and gorgeous panels. Ross Andru was brimming with energy.

I'm sure nothing harrowing will happen in these issues. Don't worry about it.

We get a quick scene with Jameson looking strangely elated. I can only imagine he hired someone (probably Mysterio) to mess with our hero. Oooh, Johnny boy, you can't reach the level of the Jackal.

Spidey is famished and steals a poor guy's food, vaguely intending to send him bills before getting interrupted by----SMOKE! Not Felicity Smoke, but actual smoke! Mysterio's smoke! The showdown quickly begins.

Mysterio issues are always a treat, and this one is no exception.

However, this fighting style... reminds me of the Tarantula. The pointed boots, the agility...

Illusions keep piling up and...

Gorgeous art! That's something we've never seen. Oh, Andru, Conway, you know it, you're in your prime.

Ned needs a much better tie, but I appreciate the attempt. Peter going insane is a theme throughout this batch.

Onto #142! Stuff happens and May notably makes an evil face.

She keeps that trend for the next issue. She should chill out a bit.

Ross Andru is great, but his face are a bit much a lot of times. Romita Sr. had a softness that Andru just can't emulate.

Meanwhile, Betty tells MJ the big news:

(We later learn it's for August 27th, which means we might see it in about 30-50 issues or so.)

Because the cast really needs good, no, GREAT news in their life right now.

Coming back from the Bugle, Peter sees someone who looks like... *her.* Surely, it must be another one of Mysterio's illusions...

Peter's naturally very angry, because this one feels very mean. Oh, Peter...

He figured off-screen that Mysterio put a VR chip on his suit that basically shows him what Mysterio wants him to see. Thanks to that, he figures out where Mysterio's hiding and...

Spider-Man: Far From Home (2019)

In the end, he's arrested. He was just a buddy of the original Mysterio (who seemingly really died) and, as he's arrested, he warns Jameson to give him a lawyer. Jonah skips town instead! Not the most interesting issue, but it compliments the previous one well and does a very clever set-up.

#143 starts between Christmas and New Years' Eve. Spidey keeps seeing *her* everywhere, but Robertson asks him to follow Jonah to Paris.

Hahaha, I just saw the upper panels on my TL this morning. I still don't get exactly what she means, but who cares, they're kissing! They're official! And they look cute. Robertson obviously approves.

They're adorable, really. I'm on board!

Turns out Jonah's been captured, but Conway and Andru are more interested in drawing the monuments of France. That's understandable! The villain (Cyclone) also kidnaps Robertson and says Spidey has 24 hours to give him the money, or else...!

That's how this issue ends, and we're now trudging in the territory of issues I've already read (again). Feels nice to have context for... well, everything.

Ish #144!

We get an actual scene with May and Anna, who go out to see a movie (and secretly kiss each other, naturally), and May is sad that Gwen Stacy died, thinking it should have been her instead of Gwen... which is a reference to how May was supposed to die in her place (and I think it would have made for a better cast but oh well).

At least, it's a great scene.

The Cyclone and his goons spend the issue complaining about Americans, and it's very funny how his thoughts were probably a caricature at the time but resonate a lot today.

Anyway, the day's saved and Peter goes back home to find...

Oh my!

Good for her!

I was initially planning to stop here to make a second post, but I'm not doing too bad at restraining myself from uploading too many pics, so let's continue.

Ish 145! Peter lashes out at Gwen (?) and is soon confronted by the Scorpion. Just before that, a textbox helpfully informs us that Marvel Team-Up 33 happens, and I shall proceed to read a summary. It's ok, nothing groundbreaking.

After the fight (where the Scorpion escapes), Peter goes back to the hospital, and Gwen's there with everybody else. Ned confirms that not only this Gwen has the same fingerprints as the one who know, the OG Gwen's grave is also still full. Ooh, drama!

MJ's not sure she's liking this.

Ish 146 opens with the Jackal saying it's been two years since *that* death, and since the Jackal was born. By now, Conway has a good handle of who hides behind that mask. Interestingly, the Jackal shatters a head statue of Spidey, similarly to ASM #129 where the Punisher (in his first appearance with the Jackal!) shoots a full-body statue of Spidey.

One page later, Gwen says she's been dead for two years. Oooh! She's hanging out with Peter and asks him the big question:

She proceeds to slam her face in a revolving door, as is custom when you just got dumped.

The Scorpion attacks May after being advised by the Jackal, but Spidey catches him and we see the best panels of the issue just in time to close it.

Ish 147! The Tarantula is back and I'm very happy. While he escapes from prison (good for him), May and MJ have a heart-to-heart. MJ's not pleased that Peter's completely stopped giving her attention, and May advises her to fight for her man. It's pretty sweet actually!

Ned gives a file from the doctor to Peter, who learns Gwen is... a clone! Of course she is. It's the original Clone Saga, after all!

Spidey and the Tarantula have an actual fun fight in the middle of New York traffic (which reminded me of the Spot and Miles's first battle in Across the Spider-Verse) until the latter pushes Spidey into a bus... from which every civilian soon departs, afraid of the fight. In a fun twist, an apparently puppeted Gwen gets on the bus... and in a fun twist, the driver turns out to be the Jackal!

See what I mean when I say it seems just out of the Spider-Verse movies?

Eventually, they stop just where the OG Gwen died and the Jackal reveals HE'S the one who created Gwen's clone.

The Tarantula pushes Spidey, whose feet and hands are shackled, off the bridge... and that's where the issue ends.

In the readers' letters, they keep bringing up the fact that Peter's still in college. From my point of view, their complaints are completely uninteresting. But it's because it's 2023 for me, not 1975.

Ish 148! The textbox helpfully informs us of the following: "At this point, we're not even going to try to explain it. You'll have to pick it up as we race along, Tiger!"

It's funny, but also... yeah.

Spidey successfully stops his fall, but he knocks his head on the bridge. The Jackal reveals he hid a JETPACK on Gwen, and they all fly away in a quite strange threesome.

Spidey tricks officers into freeing him from the shackles, and he gets away. MJ's waiting for him, but he doesn't give her the time of the day.

I put this entire page because I'm thirsting, and I'm also here for the Ned/Peter Ho Yay. They actually make an incredible team on the next page, they reach together the conclusion that Prof. Warren and/or his assistant might be involved. Their conversation and comfort around each other is very strong in a way you really don't see. I don't know. I'm shipping it. It's an awesome page and it's just a conversation.

Turns out Gwen's DNA samples have disappeared from the college fridge, and Warren pinpoints his assistant, Anthony Serba (a name I never forgot all those years, I don't know why), as the likely culprit.

But at Anthony's place...

I didn't remember the Tarantula being so involved, but I'm here for it!

Spider-Man's sexuality is a subject we must briefly broach. He regularly says "handsome" to all kinds of men when he's quipping, however, here, he says to the Taratula, "Sorry, pal--but I only dance with girls."

This is just food for thoughts.

Spidey beats the Tarantula, but as he's dragging his body...

Hmm!

Hmm-hmm!

Check out the next part of this post!

#comics #spider-man #amazing spider-man #comic books #the jackal #cyclone #mysterio #whump #original clone saga #gwen stacy #peter parker #mary jane watson #peter parker thirst #ned leeds/peter parker

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frontmanspeaking · 3 months

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“It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith -

Because now your self is all you will ever have.”

Matthew Stover, Star Wars™ - Episode III - Revenge of the Sith

#star wars original trilogy #star wars #star wars saga #star wars books #star wars prequels #sw prequels #prequel trilogy #darth vader #anakin skywalker #the clone wars #artwork #revenge of the sith #sith #jedi #the skywalker saga #skywalker family

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anakinskywalkerog · 1 year

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in honor of May the Fourth, a very simple poll ✨ VOTE FOR YOUR FAV

#star wars #sw poll #star wars poll #star wars prequels #star wars original trilogy #star wars sequel trilogy #rogue one #the phantom menace #attack of the clones #revenge of the sith #a new hope #the empire strikes back #return of the jedi #the force awakens #the last jedi #the rise of skywalker #skywalker saga #may the fourth

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gennianydots · 4 months

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Me, age 15: Hello, I’d like to order one star war please

Dad to me, casually: If you watch one, you should watch them all

Me: ok cool whatever

———

Me, now, at 30: I’ll take all the Star Wars you ever have, even the ones that don’t count anymore, and anything else you can give me. Books? Movies? Fanfic? Fanart? TV shows? Toys? Games? Video Games? Lego crossovers? ANYTHING.

#star wars #this is a constant hyperfixation #bad batch #obi wan series #ahsoka #clone wars #star wars rebels #the acolyte #the mandalorian #book of boba fett #andor series #rogue one #star wars original trilogy #star wars prequels #star wars sequel trilogy #star wars resistance #star wars fandom #lego star wars the skywalker saga

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sstarssucker · 5 months

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Idk why this man (George Lucas ig) insisted on doing such a sad fanfilm where Anakin turns to the dark side, Padmé dies, Luke and Leia are separated and raised by others, and this order 67 or whatever kills all the jedis out there.

I respect it, but the canon will always be better.

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daylightanakin · 2 years

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I want more Star Wars.

Which some might say is foolish to wish for, considering the exponential growth and release of Star Wars content since the early 2010s.

If that’s what you’re thinking, my answer is this: our definitions of Star Wars are very, very different.

I want more of the blue light on Luke’s face as his father’s ghost appears before him, of the shifting of the sky as The Chosen One brings the Force to its knees. Of the small smiles of masters and padawans exchanging bows, of soldiers and commanders exchanging salutes. Of Obi-Wan speaking of the parents he hardly met and the brother whose face he’ll never know, avoiding the crack forming in his voice. Of the orphaned farmhand who became the galaxy’s greatest hero by deciding he would rather die than make his father’s mistakes.

Of Jyn and Cassian holding onto each other in their final moments. Of Vader’s birth and Padmé’s death occurring simultaneously. Of clones firing at a Jedi whose pattern is painted on their helmets. Of Rex retiring his shovel, and Ahsoka letting her lightsaber fall from her fingers and clatter on the ground. Of Vader pocketing it years later. Of a farmer and a princess meeting in the woods, speaking of the mother they never knew, buried with their father’s gift laced between her fingers.

To me and so many other people, Star Wars isn’t about people picking up their weapons, but throwing them to the ground. It’s not about the destruction of the Death Star, but the festivities that followed. It’s not about the wage of war, but the pursuit of peace.

“I’ve got to save you.”

“You already have, Luke.”

Star Wars isn’t guns and spaceships. Star Wars is a story, a place, a feeling. It’s something people can’t describe, can’t put a finger on, can’t label or put into a box. I don’t want an action movie. I don’t want a blockbuster. I want Star Wars.

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jessequinnfirstofhername · 4 months

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Yes, I am aware most of the lines are from the prequels. I only had twelve slots and those films are such a goldmine of bad quotes that they got the lion's share.

#star wars #skywalker saga #the phantom menace #attack of the clones #revenge of the sith #a new hope #return of the jedi #the last jedi #the rise of skywalker #star wars prequels #star wars original trilogy #star wars sequel trilogy

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figures4fun · 2 months

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Vader has arrived

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starwarsquestions · 1 year

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olives-and-lilies · 1 month

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New piece for Clone OC Bingo! I had the thought that all of my clones so far only have rather law-abiding companions, so I built Saga to go with my deserter oc Tank.

This one is for the prompt Trading Weapons. Saga doesn’t really do blasters, while Tank sleeps with his DC-17. On the other hand, that blade is the last weapon Saga has from his home world, letting Tank hold and use it is far more meaningful than I think even Tank understands let alone me.

As always, card by @clonefandomevents under the cut!

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kopf1 · 2 years

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Strong is the Roger with this one

#movies #star wars memes #star wars #star wars movies #star wars trilogy #darth vader #anakin skywalker #sith #roger roger #droids #clone wars #star wars saga #star wars prequels #star wars original trilogy

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uncharted-constellations · 7 months

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Someone else remembers Untold Tales of Spider-man?!

COLOR ME SURPRISED!!!!

I think i read it back in the mid 2010s but i ended up rereading it for Sally because I was trying to remember all the midtown students and couldn't remember what happened with her in the comics and oop (rip babe). But baby gwen and harry though, my heart, they deserved the world

Also Olliffe has a great style for spider-man, especially the classic designs, he's like the sweet spot between romita jr. and mcfarlane, and he can also draw normal human faces, wild

#i think its very funny of me to have read several of the nicher titles and yet ive barely read the classic spectacular spider-man lmao #i originally read through most of amazing during math class and if a storyline continued into spectacular i just Moved On #a wild way to read comics #when i got to the clone saga i tried for like 10 issues of jumping back and forth and then gave up and skipped it

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ljones41 · 1 year

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It’s easy to watch a TV series like “Andor” or a movie trilogy like the Star Wars Original Trilogy, which featured people struggling under tyranny, fighting against tyranny or speaking against tyranny. That’s easy, because it gives audiences an opportunity to identify with such characters and pretend they are that noble or strong. What is not easy is watching a series of movies that reveal how these same beings succumb to tyranny, embrace tyranny or vote for it. It’s not easy to identify with people who embrace tyranny or allow it to happen, due to their own stupidity. Which is what many of the Prequel Trilogy protagonists were guilty of - including members of the Galactic Senate, the Jedi Order and Anakin Skywalker. This is something many countries have done in the past. This is something many countries have been doing lately. And this is something no one wants to admit that humans are still capable of doing. And that is what the Prequel Trilogy, and to some extent, “The Clone Wars”, had revealed.

#star wars saga #lucasfilm #lucasfilm disney #star wars original trilogy #star wars prequel trilogy #the clone wars #andor #galactic republic #galactic senate #jedi order

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i-dreamed-i-had-a-son · 2 years

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Sorry don't mind me I'm just still in shock that the Kenobi series is real

#star wars #kenobi series #we got that. we truly got genuinely authentic true-to-the-heart-of-the-franchise star wars media #with my BOY obi-wan!! and anakin!!! and ewan and hayden!! and we got to see obi-wan have a relationship with leia (!!!!!!)#and we got to see him heal!!!#i just...i just can't believe it like we are living in the era of the final big chapter of their story #we're still freaking out about rots from 2005 sure but we also have something new that is made for *us*#we are this star wars generation and we got to be here for the last chapter of the entire 6-movie saga. it was made for us #i'm losing it #little 11-year-old me who journaled as a made-up star wars character...little 9-year-old me who wrote her first fanfic about star wars #little 13-year-old me who never forgot about how the clone wars series never got an ending and wished that it could have (and it did)#little me who watched the original trilogy on vhs and fell in love with it. who freaked out when vader said 'i am your father'#little me who made up a parody song about star wars and still remembers it to this day (it's called 'yoda was a puppet')#(it started as a rip-off of the veggietales song 'jonah was a prophet' and evolved from there lol)#little me who was OBSESSED with obi-wan and always related to him but thought i'd never get to see any more of him #and now my dream's come true #and i just feel a lot of things about it #all those younger versions of me got what they wanted. i got to witness something worthy of being that final chapter as it happened #i've never been happier to be a star wars fan #obi wan kenobi #kay has a party in the tags #kay can i just catch my breath for a second

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fandom-aesthetic-kingdom · 2 years

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Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga (1977-2019)

"Remember, The Force will be with you. Always."

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