#making of sauron in the primary world

[sotwk]

SotWK OC Spotlight: Prince Turhir Thranduilion

Born in Third Age 37, the second son and child of Elvenking Thranduil and Elvenqueen Maereth. 

His name means “Victorious Master” in Sindarin. 

Towering at 7 feet, 6 inches, he is not only the tallest member of Thranduil’s family, but he is the tallest of all elves born in the Woodland Realm, in all of its history. (For reference, Thranduil is 7 feet, 3 inches, and the other Thranduilions are all less than 7 feet.)

As a child, Turhir had difficulty making friends with elflings close to his age. Since he was always much bigger and physically stronger, even from infancy, it was hard for him to play normally with them. His size and his more somber nature also made his childhood peers uncomfortable around him--and it was difficult enough to relate to a prince!

As a result, Turhir was rather lonely in childhood and spent most of his time with his mother, his older brother Mirion, and his tutors.

Otherwise, he spent his alone time reading and thus grew up into an avid reader. He especially enjoys narrative poems, and became an eloquent writer and poet himself. 

He is a skilled carpenter and builder who helps construct community buildings in his spare time.

He is a member of the very exclusive guild of Greenwood woodcutters--laborers who fell trees, which is a highly restricted and regulated practice.

Turhir is a horsemaster and was the primary trainer of the arroch breed that existed only in Greenwood (discussed in this post). He had a close relationship with the ancient ancestors of the Rohirrim who once dwelt near Greenwood.

Moodboard credit: @alicent-targaryen (Thank you again!). Fancast for Turhir: Sam Heughan

But the talent Turhir is most famous for, by far, is his battle prowess, which is discussed in this post. Thranduil noticed his son’s martial abilities very early on and persuaded the reluctant Elvenqueen to let their son begin training with Master Trainer Ivenil before he had properly come of age.

Turhir carries the official title of the King’s Champion, and would be called on to fight for the crown and kingdom if single combat is required. 

Although Turhir loves tournaments, especially jousting, his size and skill give him too large an advantage over his opponents. It has been deemed hazardous for him to participate in these types of competitions, so he is usually left only to spectate.

Occasionally, he is able to publicly demonstrate his skills by competing against his own father and brothers in special events limited within the royal family. 

His Royal Highness Turhir’s regency in north-western Greenwood (the province he governs) is seated in Thangail (“shield-fence” in Sindarin), one of the realm’s most recently established cities, built to house the largest military base in the kingdom. 

Turhir is the closest in personality with his father, but Thranduil tends to be hardest on him compared to his other sons. Turhir is thus closer to his mother and is the most protective of her. 

Turhir considers Mirion and Arvellas his closest friends in the world, and witnessing both their deaths nearly drove him to insanity. 

Although he is very noble and good-hearted, Turhir is the most prone to being corrupted by Darkness in his family, and Sauron himself grew aware and took interest in this.  

Much thanks again to @cheryl-of-kangsu for making this request!

So far, Turhir has drawn the least amount of interest among the Thranduilion Princes, which is not necessarily surprising to me, since that's how it would probably be in "real Middle-earth life". You might not like him at first glance, but once you get beneath the layers, there's a lot to admire there. He's an excellent hero for the "enemies to lovers" trope, and is a terrific Mr. Darcy archetype.

Also, I don't write and don't plan to write smut for the Thranduilions, but if there was ever a great leading man for that sort of thing among Thranduil's sons, Turhir would be my endorsed candidate. Just a creator's opinion. ;)

Elves HC Tag List: @a-world-of-whimsy-5 @achromaticerebus @aduialel @asianbutnotjapanese @auttumnsayshi @blueberryrock @conversacomsmaug @elan-ho-detto-elan-15 @entishramblings @fizzyxcustard @freshalmondpandadonut @friendofthefellowshipsnerdblog @glassgulls @heilith @heranintomyknife23times @ladyweaslette @laneynoir @lathalea @lemonivall @LiliDurin @quickslvxrr @ratsys @scyllas-revenge @stormchaser819 @talkdifferently6 @tamryniel @tamurilofrivendell

For more Thranduil/Mirkwood headcanons: SotWK HC Masterlist

Other useful links:

Introduction to SotWK

Fanfiction Masterlist

Fanfiction Request Guidelines

#sotwk headcanon #tuhir thranduilion #thranduil #thranduil headcanon #thranduilion princes #elvenqueen #sotwk oc #mirkwood #mirkwood elves #greenwood the great #tolkien #the hobbit #lotr

[outofangband]

Clothing and Shoes in Angband: extended headcanons

Angband World Building and Aftermath of Captivity Masterlist 

Majorly procastinating on updating my long complex trauma posts so here is this! I’m working on putting some older asks into longer form posts! Next will be my post on children born in Angband I think:/

As always please feel free to ask any questions! I love Angband world building and world building in general

Originally published in April 2022

CW: captivity/slavery, mentions of enforced nudity, mentioned abuse, some violence and gore

I'll link my other primary Angband world building posts for convenience! They're not necessary to read but they can add some more context! x, x (I also go into the psychological aspects of this a bit in my complex trauma and privacy post)

Unless there are special circumstances*, if you are brought to Angband, your clothes will be taken from you as you're sorted into whatever area of the fortress you're meant to be at (I go into this process a bit in my Hierarchies post but please feel free to ask questions about it, I have lots of thoughts always

Upon  arrival, captives will be searched and any possessions they're carrying will be taken. Sometimes, the orcs or other soldiers who make the capture will take any items that they want, they're not technically supposed to do this but until the prisoners actually reach the fortress, there is very little record keeping. The stolen items including clothes are sorted and used in a variety of places and ways by the inhabitants.

Keeping inventory of items taken from captives or returning scouts or soldiers upon arrival is a job given to some of the older prisoners on the upper levels and is considered a privilege that comes with occasional gifts, often used to further one’s feeling of being complicit in the system they are forced into

There is a thriving black market both among the prisoners and the orcs with some crossover. Orcs in lower ranks of their own hierarchy will often take part in the trade of items among the prisoners rather than reporting it as they’re more likely to get goods that way than by appealing to their higher ups. Reporting and punishment in this case is done primarily out of pure spite.  

Actual clothes are relatively rare in the black market but access to supplies to mend or clean badly torn clothes are relatively common as is fabric scraps.

I have a separate post for fiber related work in the fortress!

As Angband isn't exactly able to trade with other regions, much of their accumulation of goods and necessities are stolen from a variety of sources including captured elves and occasionally humans. (As well as made by the slaves themselves, by orcs, and by the other servants of Sauron)

The mending of clothes and sewing for the fortress of is done largely by prisoners

Enforced nudity is common including as a punishment. Slaves in the mines, forges, and kitchens are usually allowed clothes because they’re useful and clothing does offer some prevention of injuries. The clothes are typically those that have been taken from other prisoners. No one is allowed to keep the clothes they came in with.

Prisoners who are being held for interrogation or in isolation for some wrongdoing are typically naked, as are prisoners who’s current or permanent  use is for entertainment for the orcs or higher ups. Some of the personal prisoners of the higher ups are occasionally dressed up as are prisoners who serve in the fortress itself and are more akin to trophies or decoration.

As I mentioned on the complex trauma, sleep, and hygiene post, prisoners who’s bodies or clothes are  “too” clean are often understood to be targeted for favoritism (and thus abuse) by an overseer or other figure and face stigma as a result. Especially in the mines where there is almost always over crowding and lack of resources including water for drinking, cleaning, and cleaning clothes, cleanliness stands out.

I do have a long standing headcanon that there are orcs who have settlements in the Ered Engrin beyond the gates of Angband who among others things, raise some animals including mountain sheep. These are orcs outside the military hierarchy who are loyal to Angband. I have an entire post about that little community upcoming but that is where some woolen cloth comes from. Wool is spun and turned to thread and fabric in the settlement before being taken to Angband

Most elven prisoners of Angband do not wear shoes, even in the mines, forges and other dangerous areas. The shoes of all captives are taken at or prior to their arrival. The reasons for this are simple; shoes allow greater mobility and taking them is a further way to depersonalize the captives and require them to rely on the denizens of the fortress for anything

The wearing of shoes among the prisoners is considered a large privilege and will immediately mark someone out as having received the attention or favor of one of the higher ups (whether or not the prisoner themselves had any say in this matter).

Injuries as a result of not wearing shoes are common. Many prisoners and former prisoners have scars from untreated cuts and even burns

Shoes in Angband are made primarily from leather. Horses, sheep and even cows are stolen by servants of Morgoth along with elves and people and some are even kept alive to breed. I do actually headcanon that there are animals, primarily sheep, albeit modified ones. These descend primarily from stolen animals. (I’ve talked about the reasons for this in previous posts!), raised in the Ered Engrin though outside of the fortress. Leather from these provides some materials for clothing and shoes for the higher ups of the fortress as well as the prisoners who are afforded this “privilege”

Sighs…leather is also obtained from considerably less savory sources. The deaths of prisoners and orcish denizens are not an ideal outcome for a fortress that relies so heavily on slave labor and menial labor. But for elves and orcs who are disposed of or who die of neglect, deprivation or injury, their bodies are not buried but are used in for a variety of unpleasant material collection.

Other materials are obtained primarily from cloth taken from prisoners and reused. Orcs who spend significant time outside the fortress might use bark as well.

*these might include prisoners who's capture was specifically ordered by Melkor and who's fate is specific or important enough that the order is to just stick them in a cell or room and not do anything, including removing clothes (weapons will of course be taken and any other belongings/accessories almost certainly will be)

As always please feel free to ask any questions! I love Angband world building and world building in general

#the silmarillion #Angband #In the iron hell #musing and meta #cw abuse #cw violence

[itariilles]

The Elves From Episodes 1 & 2 Of The Rings of Power

On the 30th I was lucky enough to attend the world premiere of The Rings of Power. This means that I've had some time to sit down and process some of my thoughts regarding how certain thematic elements were addressed in the show, from the adaptation of textual themes, to the altering of themes to better fit the narrative the show is attempting to portray.

Specifically, how the elven characters were portrayed. The breakdown of my thoughts have been included below the text break with commentary and context from various texts. I've limited myself to the published Silmarillion, LOTR and The Hobbit, and Unfinished Tales as I don't have the capacity at the moment to delve into additional contexts from Histories of Middle-earth.

Disclaimer: this is my opinion, and my opinion only. While I am trying my best to be fair in my critique, one has to remember that this is a show produced and streamed on Amazon with a 1 billion dollar budget —  the highest of any TV production in history. I am also basing my critique on the first two episodes only, meaning that there is much more to come, but I still believe that there are themes worth talking about that were established in the first two episodes that will likely reoccur over the duration of Season 1 if not the whole show.

@silmarillionwritersguild makes an excellent statement on the ethics behind consuming Rings of Power, and the labour and human rights abuses by Amazon.

Galadriel's Motivations

"Finrod was with Turgon, his friend; but Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will." — Of The Flight of The Noldor, The Silmarillion

The prologue briefly depicts a two minute summary of the Darkening of Valinor, Flight of the Noldor, and War of Wrath. We are shown Galadriel presiding over Finrod's corpse which bears scratch marks and a brand of the eye of Sauron which can be assumed to be after his infamous duel with Sauron during their duel in Tol-in-Gaurhoth.

While it is extremely likely that Galadriel will bear personal animosity towards Sauron for the murder of her brother, it does feel odd to me that the choice was made to establish the avenging of her brother as her primary motive in remaining in Middle-earth.

Christopher Tolkien's note in Unfinished Tales on the passage above is interesting in that:

"Most notable however in the passage just cited is the explicit statement that Galadriel refused the pardon of the Valar at the end of the First Age." — History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Unfinished Tales

This seems to fall in line with her established motivations in text with her desire to rule over a realm herself, as up until this point she has only aligned herself with rulers of other realms (Thingol and Melian in Doriath, Círdan in the Falas, etc.)

In the context of Rings of Power, Galadriel is portrayed as being "rewarded" a return to Aman by Gil-Galad as an honour which she too refuses for the sake of continuing her altered show motivation of avenging Finrod and hunting Sauron.

"She did indeed wish to depart from Valinor and to go into the wide world of Middle-earth for the exercise of her talents... and she felt confined in the tutelage of Aman. This desire of Galadriel's was, it seems, known to Manwë, and he had not forbidden her; but nor had she been given formal leave to depart... Galadriel, despairing now of Valinor and horrified by the violence and cruelty of Fëanor, set sail into darkness without waiting for Manwë's leave, which would undoubtedly been withheld in that hour, however legitimate her desire in itself." — History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Unfinished Tales

The issue with this change of primary motivation is that it makes no sense with regards to her imperialist incentive in crossing over to Middle-earth which is something that is core to her character.

"Galadriel laughed with a sudden clear laugh. 'Wise the Lady Galadriel may be,' she said, 'yet here she has met her match in courtesy. Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting. You begin to see with a keen eye. I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired to ask what you offer[.']... She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad. 'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.'" — The Mirror of Galadriel, The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring

The completion of her character arc is when she rejects the one ring when it is offered to her, and with it she relinquishes her desire to rule. It is only then she willingly makes the journey back to Aman as she rejects her ambition and rule, and when that happens Lothlórien begins to fade, and with it the last of Noldorin imperialism in Middle-earth.

I must reiterate that while I take no issue with the idea that pursuing Sauron as a means of avenging Finrod's death is a motivator for Galadriel, it should not be her primary motive as has been portrayed so far. It is unclear whether or not at this early stage in the show if she has come into contact with the elves of Lórien, but this is something to keep in mind when she interacts with Amdir and Amroth later on if they do appear in this adaptation.

It is also absolutely crucial to acknowledge the complexities and nuances of Galadriel's imperialist narrative, and the settler colonialism of it all. I could go on for literally an entire essay's worth of points, but I'm saving that for a paper later on.

"In the Second Age their king, Oropher... had withdrawn northward... he resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lórien." — Appendix B: The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves, History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Unfinished Tales

While the text does seem to portray her imperialist ambitions either positively or neutrally, there are also characters who are shown to be critical of Noldorin imperialism.

"'You are of the house of Eöl, Maeglin, my son.' he said, 'and not of the Golodhrim. All this land is the land of the Teleri, and I will not deal nor have my son deal with the slayers of my kin, the invaders and usurpers of our homes.[']"

"'I acknowledge not your law,' [Eöl] said. 'No right have you or any of your kin in this land to seize realms or to set bounds, either here or there. This is the land of the Teleri, to which you bring war and all unquiet, dealing ever proudly and unjustly... Your father commands you. Leave the house of his enemies and the slayers of his kin, or be accursed!'"

— Of Maeglin, The Silmarillion

@skyeventide has an excellent thread on Twitter analysing Tolkien's specific choice of Eöl as the narrator for his critical commentary on the Noldorin settlement of Beleriand and in-text bias favouring narratives of settler colonialism.

Additional links and sources:

Galadriel and Ayesha by William H. Stoddard

Fantasy Racism Against the Elves

The first time we are introduced to the fantasy racism element of the show is when a man from Tirharad launches a tirade against Arondir venting his frustrations over the elven presence in their lands, calling him "knife-ear" which is a slur taken straight out of Dragon Age. It feels cheap and delivers less commentary and insight into the power dynamics the show attempts to suggest with the elven garrison guarding Tirharad on orders from Gil-Galad.

When approaching racism as a concept, one must remember the dynamics of power and disenfranchisement, in which the group(s) that wield power exert and abuse their power over another group for gain and profit in one form or another.

Textually, there is an element of cultural hierarchy and supremacy judged by a Quendi group's proximity to the West with Calaquendi (most notably Noldorin in a Middle-earth context) hegemony on the top of that pyramid, closely followed by the Sindar. While this deserves its own essay, I think the fact that Arondir is a Silvan plays into the uncomfortable "lowly Silvan elf" narrative that was introduced in adaptation in Peter Jackson's Desolation of Smaug (2013). Any review that claims fantasy racism is a "new" element to Tolkien adaptation in Rings of Power is inaccurate in this regard.

This is also made all the more uncomfortable by the fact that Arondir is played by Ismael Cruz Córdova who is Black and Puerto Rican, and is so far the only elf to be portrayed by a non-white actor. This, coupled by the fact that he is also a Silvan OC highlights a bunch of in-universe, and productional issues with regards to the way in which racism and inclusion are handled.

“[Wood-elves] differed from the High Elves of the West, and they were more dangerous and less wise. For most of them… were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves, and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and are fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft in the making and of beautiful and marvellous things, before some came back into the Wide World… Still elves they were and remain, and that is Good People.” 

— Flies and Spiders, The Hobbit

While there are definitely more nuanced ways to handle the element of inter-Quendi cultural dynamics, hierarchies, and conflicts, I don't think that establishing it using one-dimensional cheap commentary from a throwaway Tirharad man is the best way to go about it.

There are implications of Eldar holding power over men in the First Age, with men being portrayed as vassals in a feudalistic system under the Noldorin princes. In the Second Age there is less of this implication with the establishment of Númenor as the new mannish cultural centre, but it would have been better handled in the Tirharad context if there were points made about power dynamics with the Tirharad men treated as second-class citizens of their own lands or vassals of Eldar power and hegemony over their lands for the sake of their interests.

A line said by a Silvan soldier reasoning their station over the men of Tirharad as "descendants of those who served Morgoth" is uncomfortable as it plays into the established trope of South/Eastern men being inherently evil which links into Orientalist ideas of the East being percieved as fundamentally Other. This is an established trope in Tolkien which some of my links from my race in Tolkien masterpost linked below regarding the portrayal of Easterlings by Tolkien and in adaptation explain in more detail.

"The Silvan Elves had invented no forms of writing, and those who learned this art from the Sindar wrote in Sindarin as well as they could. By the end of the Third Age the Silvan tongues had probably ceased to be spoken in the two regions that had importance at the time of the War of the Ring: Lórien and the realm of Thranduil in northern Mirkwood."

— Appendix A: The Silvan Elves and Their Speech, History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Unfinished Tales

There is also a soft imperialism and cultural assimilation aspect to Sindarin settler colonialism in the Second Age, and while we have yet to meet the major Sindarin players of the Second Age (namely Oropher, Amdir, and Amroth), it may yet hold implications for Arondir down the line.

It feels rather strange that Gil-Galad is implied to hold dominion over Silvan elves, as it feels reductive of inter-Quendi dynamics from textual material. Unless Arondir and the other Silvans garrisoned at Tirharad are Silvan elves of Ered Luin or of the forests that fall within Lindon, there is no reason they should answer Gil-Galad's orders, much less recognise Gil-Galad's authority over them as a people group.

It is also strange that Gil-Galad appears to hold the more imperialistic narrative, rather than Galadriel who is explictly depicted as having imperialistic motives in Middle-earth. I question how this aspect of his character will be handled in the show, but I'm not holding my breath given how fantasy racism is often handled poorly and with little nuance in Tolkien fandom, adaptation, and fantasy as a genre.

The second instance in which we are shown the theme of fantasy racism is when Galadriel is rescued out of the water by human castaways. Halbrand reveals her ear, and the woman on board who had previously showed her kindness in offering water, turns on her and shrieks at the elf.

We do not know which people group(s) the castaways belong to, but Halbrand claims to be of the South.

The undertones of fantasy racism falls onto Galadriel's shoulder, who once again in adaptation is played by a white woman. I have written a thread on Twitter criticising fan responses to Morfyyd Clark's instagram posts, and how the Rings of Power fandom has ascribed to the actress the role of a white saviour in which it feels as if the conversation of racism is again being centred on whiteness.

Additional links and sources:

Please check out my Race in Tolkien masterpost for more links on the topic. I've last updated it 02/09/2022.

The Neoclassical Aesthetic Given to the Noldor and its Unfortunate Implications

Elves in their Roman mid-first century legionnaire-esque armour designs battle amongst the chaos against legions of orcs, and a mound of helmets as a symbol and testiment to the mighty dead. Galadriel adds a galea to the mound in sorrow and grief.

The scene shifts to Lindon in an unspecified time during the Second Age. A male elf crowned in golden laurels plays the lyre, and the female servants clad in their sleeveless Doric chitons linger in the background of shots.

As I mention above, the proscription of a neoclassical aesthetic to the Noldor exacerbates existing textual favourtism and cultural superiority, made all the more uncomfortable with recent discourses regarding the whiteness of the elves and the knowledge that real life facist and white supremacist groups have a habit of co-opting Classical Greek and Roman imagery. One need only look to Benito Mussolini and Identity Evropa as examples.

It feels less coincidental when considering the Classical Greek and Roman imagery and white actors the show has deliberately chosen for the Noldor.

This is a complicated and nuanced subject, with the popularisation of Ancient Greece and Rome as inherently white societies being a recent invention popularised in the 18th century by scholars such as Johann Joachim Winckelmann.

I brace myself and wince for the inevitable far-right white supremacist co-option of the neoclassical Noldor from the Rings of Power. It feels as if all my arguments against elves being inherently "white" are all for nothing, as in the past I have come face-to-face with white supremacists who have used the Peter Jackson film portrayals of Galadriel and Arwen as the pinnacle of white feminity to further their incentive to keep the elves in adaptation as white as possible.

Additional links and sources:

The whiteness of the Rings by Sean Redmond

Whitewashing Antiquity by Imara Ikhumen

Why the alt-right loves ancient Rome And Greece, too. by Sean Illing

#rings of power #the rings of power #lotr on prime #racism in tolkien #tolkien meta #tolkien adaptation #finrod #galadriel #arondir #gil galad #rings of power critical #not really a review per se but just some opinions and analysis

[tolkien-feels]

I require a list of people Sauron has ever feared from most to least, please

I can't answer this ask without talking about amdir vs estel, so if you're not familiar with those, do skim over them.

Also I know you meant this jokingly but I find the serious answer very fascinating so I'll be serious. Sorry.

Okay here's the thing. Sauron's primary weapon seems to be fear (and despair, and betrayal, which are all related to fear), and he is himself described as afraid a few times. Of all the Valar, Morgoth alone feels fear, and from that, I tend to headcanon that Sauron feels a lot of fear. Because see, in Tolkien's world, fear is the opposite of estel, right? And estel, ultimately, is trust that Iluvatar's plan may not be thwarted. How can you possibly find the confidence of estel if your whole thing is that you oppose Iluvatar??

Sauron's hope at all times must be amdir. Which means he either must trust that he himself is powerful enough to face X person or Y event or he has nothing else to cling to. There's never going to be eagles coming or unexpected allies or Chance for him. And because he draws no comfort from "If I die, it'll be defending my home/friends/honor which I love" anything except victory is meaningless for him. So he has to win and it has to be by himself, because he only ever fights for himself. It's a horrible, horrible way to live and most of the reason why I genuinely pity Sauron, not because he's not evil (he is) but because being evil sucks. (At least in Tolkien's universe.)

So like, who does Sauron fear? Literally everybody who is a threat. And when you spend millennia exploiting people's willingness to betray each other and go from friend to threat... well, you would be stupid to trust even your must trusted servants, wouldn't you? So who is a threat to Sauron? Potentially everybody.

Now, because Sauron is arrogant, he wouldn't consider hobbits a threat. Yes he's relying on his own strength, but his strength is more than enough to handle hobbits. But this very arrogance makes it so that a given person either doesn't register in his mind or registers as a threat. Everything he pays attention to comes from a place of fear. At most he can probably conceptualize the idea of toys ie people he's paying attention to because it's fun to make them suffer, but they aren't very dangerous. But after the great Luthien fiasco I think he probably becomes a lot more pragmatic about that - he kills Celebrimbor fairly quickly, for instance. (And of course, there's the Frodo effect: certain threats fly under his radar because he's too arrogant.)

So who does Sauron fear? Basically everybody he's ever given any thought to, which is the entire reason he loses the War of the Ring.

[morgulscribe]

Could the Witch-king Wear His Ring and Remain Visible? A Scholarly Essay About Naked Nazgul

The Black Wizards by Bastien Lecouffe Deharme

This is a follow-up of my post entitled "The Witch-king as Sauron's Emissary."

In early drafts from The History of Middle-earth, the Witch-king had a penchant for making dramatic getaways by flinging off his clothing Níniel style and fleeing naked and unseen from his enemies. He does this both at the Battle of Pelennor Fields when fleeing from Eowyn, and at the Black Gate, where he serves as the Emissary of Sauron who offers terms of surrender to the Host of the West. This habit, while peculiar, does not seem out of place within the writing of an author who was known to include random scenes of non-sexual nudity in his works. In fact, when taking the material from The History of Middle-earth into consideration, the Nazgul have more nude scenes in the legendarium than the hobbits and anyone associated with the Children of Hurin combined.

"With a clamour of dismay the hosts of Harad turned and fled, and over the ground a headless thing crawled away, snarling and sniveling, tearing at the cloak. Soon the black cloak too lay formless and still, and a long thin wail rent the air and vanished in the distance." --"The Battle of the Pelennor Fields," The War of the Ring, p. 366

"The ambassador laughs, and gives a dreadful cry. Flinging off his garments he vanishes; but at that cry the host prepared in ambush sally from the mountains on either side, and from the Teeth, and pour out of the Gate." --"The Story Foreseen From Forannest," The War of the Ring, 362

Just to clarify, the garments that the Witch-king casts aside refer to the clothing that he wears in the world of the living, not to the garments that he wears in the wraith world. I believe that a Nazgul's appearance in the wraith world is more representative of his soul/fëa, and has little correlation with what he wears upon his physical body/hröa. This explains why the Nazgul are described as wearing black garments when pursuing Frodo, but gray robes when he puts on the One Ring and sees them in the wraith world for the first time.

Now one might assume that the Witch-king in these early drafts did not possess his Ring. It has often been assumed that the Nine Rings work in the exact same fashion as the One Ring: the moment that the wearer puts one of the Nine Rings upon their finger, they become invisible to mortals, clothing and all. Using that logic, if the Witch-king had his Ring in these two scenes, he would have had no need to tear off his clothing to become invisible. He would simply take his Ring from a pocket in his cloak, or from a chain about his neck, and slip it onto his finger. Instant invisibility - with far more dignity.

However, this is the tricky part.

Tolkien might have intended for the Witch-king to be wearing his Ring in both of these scenes.

"The Nazgul came once more, slaves of the Nine Rings, and to each, since now they were utterly subject to his will, their Lord had given again that ring of power that he had used of old." --"The Siege of Gondor," The War of the Ring, 335

Now, there is very strong evidence in the published version of Lord of the Rings that Sauron had possession of the Nine Rings of the Nazgul in the latter part of the Third Age. Tolkien even stated in Letter 246 that Sauron held the Nine Rings and used them to have "primary control of their wills." So it is obvious that Tolkien abandoned the idea of having the Witch-king and other Nazgul wield their Rings at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Over the years, I have read theories that perhaps Tolkien did not want to address the situation which might arise if someone found the Witch-king's Ring after he fell upon the battlefield, and that it would be better if the Nine Rings were destroyed during the fall of Barad-dur. Whether or not this was Tolkien's actual line of thinking when he made this decision, only Eru and the Professor know.

But back to the early drafts in which the Witch-king was wielding his Ring at the Battle of Pelennor and at the Black Gate.

If the Witch-king's clothing was visible when he was wearing his Ring, that means that the Nine Rings might work more like the Three Elven Rings as opposed to the One Ring. In other words, the clothing of the wielder stays visible, while the wielder can will the Ring itself to appear invisible. Remember how Frodo could see Nenya on Galadriel's hand, while Sam could not.

While we do not know the exact properties of the Nine Rings, we do know that they were originally created for elves. When Sauron's plan to control the elves through rings did not pan out, he reclaimed sixteen of them and gave nine to powerful men. Tolkien writes, "The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay […], the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance […]. But they also enhanced the powers of a possessor […]. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron […] such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible." (Letter 131)

These preservation effects have a unique effect upon Men: "A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings." - "The Shadow of the Past," Fellowship of the Ring, p.56

Of the Nazgul, we know: "Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thralldom of the ring that they bore and of the domination of the One which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows." - "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age," The Silmarillion, p.289

I posed this question some time back on Reddit, and one person theorized that since the Nazgul were already wraiths, the property that Rings of Power have of drawing a mortal wearer into the spirit realm would no longer have any effect upon them. So, based upon this theory, the Nazgul would function more like elves or maiar when wearing their Rings. We know that Galadriel, Gandalf, and Elrond were visible at all times, although Nenya, Narya and Vilya remained hidden.

So could a Nazgul wear his own Ring without his clothing turning invisible?

By time of the War of the Rings, the Nazgul had been wraiths for almost 5,000 years. Surely by that time they would have figured out a way to will their clothing to be visible while wearing their Rings.

#witch-king #nazgul #ringwraiths #lord of the rings #return of the king #history of middle-earth #tolkien theories #rings of power #nine rings #wraith world #elfhild's essays

[phoenixrisesoncemore]

Why Do We Know Sauron's Original Name in Quenya if Sauron Was Never In Valinor: Speculations on my Favorite Baddie, Part 3

Finishing up that meta I've been working on for, like, 7 years (RIP me) about Sauron and his original name and the mindf#@& that gave me. Planning to post that on Sun [now posted and can be found here]. But this bit is just too long to fit in it.

In Helge Fauskanger's "A Name for the Dark Lord" (where I first read about "Mairon" in 2015) he points out that Sauron's original name existing in Quenya is pretty odd. The version of Sauron Tolkien was writing about at that time had defected to Melkor's service before the language "Quenya" even existed, so why would his original name be recorded in it?

Now, there's the (I think, likely) Primary World reason for that: Tolkien is writing this down as a part of his work on the "words and phrases" lists he began compiling after the publication of The Lord of the Rings. These words and phrases are primarily about ironing out the linguistic features of words and names that appear in that story. Valarin—the language Sauron's original name was most likely only ever known in while he was still associated with it by anyone but himself—is a language Tolkien did relatively little work on, and it does not appear in The Lord of the Rings. "Sauron," however, does (well… I'll talk about that more in the main post), and the name "Sauron" is Quenya. Considering the kind of character work that flowed naturally from names in Tolkien's work on the Legendarium, it makes sense that it would be important to Tolkien to have an understanding of what this character's original name was, even when translated into another language it might never have been translated into within the confines of the Secondary World.

But Tolkien—through his devilish little framing device in which all this information is, in fact, information not flowing directly from his imagination but is, instead, merely being reported by him, the translator of some ancient documents—has given us a kind of carte blanche to challenge his "translation," amend and append to it, no matter what The Estate might think of that. Maybe I have access to those ancient documents, too ;-).

So in the interest of promoting the "Infinite Variety of Being" that I think Ea's metaphysics desires (if not requires), I'm going to throw a headcanon out there.

There's a related puzzle regarding the name "Mairon," and that's where I'll start: the name "Mairon" and the word "Maiar" are very similar. I'm going to go into more detail on that in the full post but for now just consider this: just prior to Tolkien coining the word "maiar" and the name "Mairon" the "lesser kin of the Valar" are called the "Vanimor" and the "Valariindi." The Valarindi are understood to be the actual children of the Valar (Eonwe and Ilmare were two of these) and the Vanimor are what we would come to know as the Maiar: lesser Ainur who (mostly) attached themselves to greater Ainur once they enter Ea and start their demiurgic work. Sometime in the late 1950’s (at the same time Tolkien is writing down the name "Mairon"), he decides that 1. the Valar do not have children, meaning that all Valarindi are now Vanimor and 2. the name for the Vanimor is now "Maiar." Christopher explains this change in Morgoth's Ring:

“AV 2 had here (V.110) 'these are the Vanimor, the Beautiful', changed in the later rewriting (see note 3) to 'these are the Mairi…', and then to 'these are the Maiar…' This was probably where the word Maiar first arose.” --HoMe X: Morgoth’s Ring, Part Two: “The Annals of Aman.”

So, around the time Tolkien decides Sauron's original name was "Mairon" he also decides to rename the lesser kin of the Valar to… basically the same thing as Sauron's original name. And that's… interesting. And it got me thinking about both of these puzzle pieces and how they might fit together.

In his essay Fuskanger speculates that Sauron's original name in Valarin was translated into Quenya after the Elves arrived there.

"According to Tolkien’s late ideas, as reflected in the essay Quendi and Eldar [...] [i]t is said that the Valar encouraged the Elves, not to borrow words from Valarin, but rather to “translate the meanings of names into fair Eldarin [= Elvish] forms” (WJ:405). So when Mairon is said to be Sauron’s “original” name, maybe we must take this to mean that he had some unstated Valarin name that meant The Admirable, and that this was later translated into Quenya as Mairon when the Elves learnt about this person from the Valar (at which time he was not so admirable anymore)." --"A Name for the Dark Lord"

Here's my headcanon addition.

The being who was called the Valarin equivalent of The Admirable was excellent at what he did. Top of his class material. Admired (and sometimes envied) by all the other lesser spirits who were to serve The Powers in their demiurgic activities. Unlike those Valaraukar that would come to be known as Balrogs, the being who would come to be known as Sauron had repudiated Melkor in the Timeless Halls, winning him even more admiration from among The Powers, those who would be the great movers and shakers in Ea.

In Ea his work was perfect… or as close to perfect as you can get in Arda Marred—which was not nearly close enough, at least for him. And that was the crack that Melkor exploited.

Not because Melkor knew he needed the kind of devotion and help that came from having The Admirable in his service. No, he was too arrogant for that. But because what a prize it would be for Melkor to turn not just any of these lesser Ainur to his service, to make them serve and worship him, but to turn the best and the brightest. What an insult that would be to Aule, who he especially hated. What a valuable asset it would be to gain one of the chief architects of the Two Lamps who worked immediately under Aule during their construction. Who would know better how to topple them? Who would make a better spy?

Melkor was cunning. And still at this time patient. And he was observant, far more observant than most when it came to spotting the seeds of dissatisfaction with The World that were sown in other creatures as time passed. He would teach The Admirable one day—when The Admirable was far less admirable—how to spot them, too. But for now he watched and learned what he could to use in his mission to corrupt the best servant his enemies had.

And what did he see? He saw that there was always this friction, this entropy, this failure, and he saw that it didn't occur to The Admirable yet that some of that was not because Arda was Marred, but because Arda was populated with other beings who had different ideas about what perfection meant.

He saw the realization of the crush of time creeping into The Admirable’s eyes, gold like the metal from stars that he sowed in the veins of the rocks to stitch them back together. Time: the thing that none of them knew, not really, before they made the irrevocable choice to enter into that Story they had given shape to. He saw the crushing weight of the length of prehistory do its work.

He saw the mounting frustration with the broken bits of the world they couldn’t save from Melkor or his retinue. He saw the sense of powerlessness—after all, even Aule and Varda and Manwe couldn’t undo the damage Melkor had done. The pottery was broken. You can Kintsugi it back together, but it’s never the same. You have to learn to love the gold as a part of the work even more than you loved the work before.

And so Melkor made his move. If The World, itself, bends to his will, bends to the flaw in its design that Melkor had introduced into it, then any attempts to guide The World without his blessing was folly. The only way forward, he tells The Admirable—was to give in and accept it.

But The Admirable was hard to sway. He was proud and stubborn. And Melkor knew this, too. So he watched especially hard as he “abandoned” his quest to sway The Admirable, and went after Osse instead. He watched especially hard when Ulmo asked Aule for help coaxing Osse back. He watched as The Admirable’s questions to Aule, about the good and the bad and the marred and the healed, never earned the same attention. He watched as the doubt grew and he watched as The Admirable ran from it.

He watched as it became Despair.

And that’s when he got what he wanted. And that’s why, eons of time later, The No-Longer-Admirable will know how to bring Denethor down.

When The Lamps and The Admirable are gone and The World lays in ruin once again, the Powers (like angles in the Last Days piecing together the bodies of the faithful) gather the molecules of the land that do not contain the corruption of Melkor—so much stronger than they believed—and use them to build a new home, The Undying Lands, where even entropy can not enter. They assess what they have lost and what it means. And when they go to find the awakened Elves and learn their frightened tales of the Entity that comes to torment them and steal their kind away, and the other Entity, the one that helps him do it, the one who devises their torment, they realize what The Admirable has become.

They strike his name from the rolls. He is Admirable no longer. But that name, the name for the person he was, they give it away again, they give it to all the spirits of his order, to those faithful spirits who served them well. When it is that The No-Longer-Admirable finds this out, I can’t say, but I sometimes imagine that revelation comes much later, when he presents himself to Eonwe, who finds some small delight in telling him the name he has continued to call himself for all these ages is no longer his, that it now belongs to all of them who continue to do what he would not.

Long before this, when the Eldar arrive in Valinor they learn the name for these lesser spirits, so much closer in stature and knowledge to themselves than the Powers are. And when they ask where it came from there is a hush and then a very sad story, a precautionary tale, shared among these spirits and the Powers they serve. “Maiar” is how they translate the name for these spirits for they are Admirable, Excellent, Precious, Sublime. And “Mairon” is how they translate the name of the one who is now nameless, the name he had before he lost his right to it.

Later, when Melkor swans his way through Valinor in the Years of the Trees, a “humble penitent” newly released from his ages of captivity, whispering his little lies in the Noldor’s ears, the rest of the Eldar turn to each other in warning: “Heed him not. Remember what happened to Mairon.”

#tolkien #silmarillion #lord of the rings #sauron #mairon #rings of power #tolkien metaphysics #linguistics #Eldarin cautionary tales #speculations on my favorite baddie

[emarasmoak]

Rings Of Power Writer Gennifer Hutchison's Challenges, Temptations, And Favorite Scenes In The Season Finale

Very insightful interview. Highly recommended.

The first season of "The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power" is only the first part of a five-season story arc that amounted to nearly half a decade of work (including pandemic delays).

The first season spent a lot of time establishing the show's massive cast and sprawling setting. It provided background, set stories in motion, and ended with some major reveals.

Gennifer Hutchison, one of the primary creative talents behind the series, doubles as one of the show's executive producers and primary writers, spearheaded writing the script for both the second and eighth episodes and was able to share some fascinating insights into many of the creative decisions that went into the final moments of Season 1.

Read more for the biggest narrative challenges, her favorite scenes, the potential of visiting Rhûn and some insight into where the other Rings of Power are hiding.

Writing challenges and the potential of more Rhûn in season 2

Question: You have executive producer credits throughout the first season, but you wrote Episodes 2 and 8, correct?

Answer: Yes. I wrote Episode 2, and I co-wrote Episode 8 with Patrick and JD.

Q: As one of the primary writers on that episode, how much creative input did you have on the finale compared to the rest of the season?

A: Just as much. We all built the season together. The writer's room worked together to build the story for the entire season, and then writing the finale, myself, Patrick, and JD had a hand in every scene and every beat in that episode.

Q: What was the biggest challenge with trying to tie up so many storylines at once and then set the stage for Season 2 at the same time?

A: The biggest challenge is figuring out where to stop the scene. You want to answer a question, but you want to ask another one. It was figuring out the best way to build those climaxes of our two big reveals but still leave it so it's like, "Now what happens?" and making sure that was coming through, where you feel a satisfying character arc, but you also are intrigued to [wonder] what comes next.

Q: To zero in on one of those scenarios, in particular, we have a still-undefined Wizard who is heading east by the end of this episode. Assuming we can't get any identification specifics still, can you at least give us a little bit of the background on the decision to officially name-drop Rhûn and then include the eastern regions of Middle-earth in the show?

A: That's a world that exists in the Legendarium, and we know a little bit about. We don't really get to see as much in the primary text. When you're doing a show that you have that space, it's such a temptation to go into that world and get the opportunity to expand it since it's there. We love the idea of exploring it.

Where are the other Rings of Power?

Q: Shifting gears to Eregion — we all know the Ring Verse, which lists 19 Rings of Power and One Ring to rule them all. In the source material, the Three Elven Rings are made last and without Sauron present, like you had in the episode, but only after the Nine Rings for Mortal Men and the Seven Rings for the Dwarf-lords are completed. Where are those Rings in the show?

A: We have seen the rings that have been created, so there may be a little bit of a shift in the sequencing of the Rings, but yes, the Rings that you have seen [are] the Rings that have been made.

Q: Is this the way it's been from the beginning, as far as fitting the making of the Rings into the finale itself? Was it always planned to make the Three Rings at the end here and then other Rings later on?

A: Yes. This season was about tracking the Elves and their story of dealing with the fading and Galadriel's journey with Halbrand. Coming to that ending for this season was always, at least very early on, the plan because [we're] focusing on that story and making sure we're servicing that one for this season.

Q: A slightly nitty-gritty question: How much time in the story takes place once they get to Eregion, because Elrond requests three more months, and then it's hard to tell how quickly the Rings actually end up being made. Is that actually known or not?

A: We don't really say exactly what it is, but you can assume that it is within that timeframe that he asks for it. It's certainly not ... I don't think it's an immediate thing that's happening.

Q: That's important, right? They do have that spring deadline that has been established and so days versus months matter at this point, right?

A: Yes.

Addressing Annatar rights and potential Sauron/Galadriel romantic tension

Q: Do you know in Season 2 if there is going to be any kind of a time jump or is this going to pick right up where you left off?

A: I can't really speak to that, but I will say we've set some stories in motion that we definitely want to keep following, so whatever's going to best serve that is the direction we're going to go.

Q: In the source material, Sauron masquerades — a lot of people are aware of this — as the immortal being Annatar. That's the name everyone was looking for when he makes the Rings. Did you guys have permission to use that name and chose not to use it, or is it outside of the range of material that Patrick McKay and JD Payne have expressed you have full permission to use?

A: That's a Patrick and JD question. I don't know the specifics. It may be about the rights issue, but they are way better suited to answer specifically that question.

Q: With the Sauron and Galadriel sequence that took place in her mind, I guess you'd say, is there a personal or romantic motivation behind Sauron's desire to have Galadriel as his queen or is it purely... We know he's a deceiver. Is it a power and control situation?

A: People can bring their own reads into that scene, especially with a character like Sauron. He's a little slippery. So much of what we were building to was less intentionally a romantic thing and more a meeting of the minds — this idea of this team together challenges each other to be their best in a lot of ways. She inspires him, and he helps push her. That was what we were thinking about [while] writing that scene — him selling this idea of "Together, nothing could stop us." That was the intention behind it. I love people being able to look into a scene and bring what they bring into it and get their own reads from it.

Q: Yeah, that's very Tolkienian, right? He liked to have other people interpret as well. It wasn't all allegorical or preset.

A: Yes.

Season 2 storylines and Hutchison's favorite part of the finale

Q: Moving forward, what storyline are you the most excited to work on in Season 2?

A: Oh my gosh, I love every world. Now that we've uncloaked Sauron ... What's he going to do? That's so exciting. Also, I'm so invested in Nori and the Stranger and seeing where they go, now that she's finally gotten what she wants. She wants an adventure. Now, she's on an adventure. What does that look like for her?

Q: Did you have a favorite part of this finale in particular that you really enjoyed writing?

A: I loved writing the Galadrial, Halbrand, and Sauron confrontation, and the Nori goodbye scene was also one that was so close to my heart when I was writing it.

#the rings of power #sauron #galadriel #haladriel #halbrand #trop interviews #gennifer hutchison

[minubell]

Can you tell us about what are the ships from the playlist you posted?

Oh absolutely! Here's the ships and their breakdowns for why the songs represent them:

Take Me to Church: Both Angmar/Sauron and Angmar/Khamul. Angmar loves very religiously. Songs associated with him not mentioned on that list usually have an element of devotion to them. In particular, Roar of the Jungle Dragon really embodies his loyalty, though I don't tend to use it for shipping purposes because it's more one-sided. I do not think Angmar is capable of behaving like a normal person when it comes to love, and in this particular instance both the Lover and the Church mentioned in the song are the same person, because Angmar loves self-destructively.

The Riddle (Scarlet Pimpernel): Khamul/Angmar. Man, the Scarlet Pimpernel has some great songs for Tides of War. So does the Frankenstein musical and the Count of Monte Cristo. Anyway, the thing about Khamul and love is that he doesn't. Not really. Khamul wears so many masks that he doesn't even know what he looks like underneath all of them, and meeting someone who is genuine and straight forward is sort of baffling to him. Even if he did love someone, he expects treachery. He expects deceit. He expects betrayal. The Riddle is a great song for Khamul because it is how he views love, but not necessarily how it is reciprocated back unto him.

Never Enough (Greatest Showman): Sauron/Celebrimbor. I've actually thought about this song so so so much and could tell you line by line how the animatic I would make would go for it. I use this both for Sauron's time as Annatar, and when he returns and eventually kills Celebrimbor. I believe it's a great song for Sauron in general because wanting more really is his primary goal for literally everything in Tides of War. Celebrimbor was the ONLY person who ever managed to make him deviate from that goal, and his death left Sauron rattled. For Annatar, this song is about cherishing the moments with Celebrimbor. How everything he did in the First Age wasn't enough for him, but he's happier now with Celebrimbor. For Sauron, it's about how Celebrimbor is now also not enough, and he now desires both Celebrimbor, and the world. Unfortunately, this selfishness would lead to him getting neither.

#Tides of War #TOW Lore #Angmar #Sauron #Mairon #Khamul #Celebrimbor

[loopy777]

A world building question. One of my planned stories is a Tolkien What if set in a universe where Sauron ultimately went west to face judgement, and so in turn this butterflied away the fall of numenor. This in turn caused a second age that essentially never ended, stretching on, and on, and on for years beyond count.

However, due to different events not related to to the numenoreans, the lands of Valinor got a second great shroud put over them, to make certain that none save elves, or one who carried a silmaril as Earendil had, could ever pass by way of sea ships.

My question is this. How would you advice me to handle the flat nature of the world in the age of Planes and airships? Should i treat the void beyond like it's space, or could one actually fly through it without worry so long as one has the fuel? Or should i treat the void like it's always been like space, and so essentially around the world there is a horizontal atmosphere?

I had a little trouble parsing the two options, so I asked for more detail and got the following:

All right so a bit of clarification about the Tolkien second age void question.

My question is, do you think should i treat the void like actual space, aka. Ridiculously hostile, and impossible to traverse without at least 21th century tech, or should i treat it more like, say, the disney movie Treasure planet treats space?

Obviously im not gonna go in the direction as that movie did, with a massive interplanetary trade network or something, but i kinda like the idea of people using flying balloons to explore the sides of Arda, beyond the outer encircling sea where nothing lives, and there is no buoyancy (Specifically made that way, presumably so you can't literally sail off the map.).

Also a bit of expansion on why I'm asking this question.

The way i have always thought of this, is that the point where Eru bend the world into a circle was turning point, not just in making the world much more mundane, and the magic leaving it, but also making the world much more... Clarified and built on a much less fantastical base.

For example. Earendil the evening star. In the context of the first and second ages, Earendil is a man in a flying boat who lights up the night sky, and brought hope to the world after the battle of unnumbered tears, to reawaken the free people in preparations of the war of wrath.

However, as the second age ended, and Eru realigned the universe to fit it, Earendil's physical nature was changed, as while he remained in the night sky, the man on his ship with his sillmarill became the very physical planet Venus, and would presumably remain as such until the Tolkien version of Ragnarok.

Now, one of the things i wanted to explore here, is a world where this never happens. Arda does go through changes, but the world remains the way it was originally made, with a flat top, all the way to the encircling sea, numenor never falls into the sea, though its golden age does not last forever, the elves, though they never quite regain the kind of energy and drive they had before the first dawn, and the first age, never begin to truly fade away as they did into the fourth age, and magic remains much more common even as technology advances.

Hence why i'm trying to figure out how such a world would progress once it reaches the kind of tech where the natural boundaries of the encircling seas suddenly isn't so impassable anymore (Also, you might have realized this story is heavily inspired by the steampunk, prototype numenor that Tolkien eventually abandoned in favor of his finalized version.)

I'm very glad I asked, because this speaks directly to how I like to do my worldbuilding: its primary purpose is to support the needs of the story, its secondary purpose is to provide color and texture, and its lowest priority is to delight the audience. Any worldbuilding that satisfies all three objectives is solid gold. Anything that delights but otherwise adds nothing is on the chopping block if I need to reduce words or tighten the pacing. Anything that enables the story but accomplishes nothing else will get to stay but will be pushed as far into the background as possible. Texture that adds nothing else can be written into something completely different at a moment's notice.

So, considering that one of the main goals of this story is explore a different kind of setting, I like the idea of the 'fake space' that can be explored without a pressurized airtight capsule and strong understanding of momentum. For one, Tolkien was purposefully trying to create a Mythology, not a History, complete with the mythological-style explanation for stars. I think your idea works for how the end of the third age and the loss of magic retcons the fantastical into the mundane, but that's also where the story Tolkien was telling ends, aside from the distant ragnarok. As long as you're exploring the world in your own story, I like the idea of keeping things a bit separate from reality, especially if it makes for good spectacle.

And as far as spectacle goes, I love the idea of a steampunk setting where space exploration is based on older ideas from back when no one thought it would be a vacuum. Elves In Space is a great title, but Elves in NASA pressure suits flying Saturn V rockets doesn't really do anything that actual stories of actual Apollo missions doesn't. Doing something different and creative is a draw on its own, even aside from the Tolkien links.

I also think there's some story possibility where this kind of space exploration creates a kind of Tower Of Babel situation where humanity and/or elves is going a bit beyond what Eru wanted of them and so they might have another set of limiters coming like a vacuum space that's lacking gravity.

Plus, I admit, I just personally like the style of retro space opera that stuff like the Duck Dodgers cartoons pulled from, so I always advocate for it.

[theuntitledblog]

The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (2001) - REVIEW

SYNOPSIS

A young hobbit, Frodo, who has found the One Ring that belongs to the Dark Lord Sauron, begins his journey with eight companions to Mount Doom, the only place where it can be destroyed.

There are fantasy films and then there is the Lord of the Rings. Having never read the Lord of the Rings or even the Hobbit prior to the release of Fellowship of the Ring, it was clear that the Lord of the Rings was different to most other fantasy films. For a start this is a film, like the source material, that takes its fiction seriously; its history, cultures, races and even languages. There is nothing about Lord of the Rings that makes you think that no-one involved doesn't take it just as seriously. The fascinating appendices of the Extended Editions of these films is proof of that and is a big contrast to the filming of the first Star Wars film for example where many didn't take it seriously. Such was the scope and depth of JRR Tolkien's work; written between 1937 and 1949 and intended to be just one volume, it was believed to be unfilmable. However Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens have somehow managed to achieve a difficult balance; honouring Tolkien's sprawling, descriptive epic while creating a cohesive blockbuster that comes in at a relatively lean 3 hours. Fellowship is a long film but never grinds to a frustrating halt, it has many characters to introduce yet none feel sidelined and it traverses across many different locations but doesn't feel episodic.

Likewise this isn't a film that's carried by any particular lead character or actor. That's not to say that there aren't some impressive performances throughout the film and if you're looking at Fellowship of the Ring in particular then there's undoubtedly the Hobbit actors; Elijah Wood, Sean Astin, Dominic Monaghan and Billy Boyd. Then of course there's Sir Ian McKellon's terrific and iconic turn as Gandalf the Grey and Viggo Mortensen as the stoic and heroic Aragorn. This is an ensemble piece and the film is excellently cast with the visual effects team doing an incredible job in depicting smaller Hobbits and Dwarves alongside Men and Elves. The visual effects in general are excellent with the use of miniature models of the fantasy locations such as the towers of Barad-Dur and Orthanc, the Elven realms of Rivendell and Lothlorien and the Mines of Moria that blend in seamlessly with the live action. Credit must be given for the decision to the trilogy in New Zealand with the vast and natural landscapes proving a perfect location to bring Middle Earth to life.

At nearly 3 hours in length, it's not for the faint hearted but at the same time you feel that nothing is wasted. The world of Middle Earth feels lived in with the weight of its history bearing down upon it. What also works surprisingly well is how the primary antagonist, Sauron, serves the story as an off screen threat. Sure there are effective sub-antagonists to contend with such as the Ringwraiths, Saruman and the Uruk Kai, but Sauron always feels present thanks to the brilliant decision to have the Ring itself be a character. The memorable opening prologue tells us everything we need to know about the Ring plusthe obsessive pursuit by Gollum (Andy Serkis), the toll taken on Bilbo (Ian Holm) and later the corruption of Boromir (Sean Bean) emphasis this further. This is a film where the danger always feels present and the stakes always high. This is fantasy of the highest order and perhaps greatest quality ever put to screen. While being the first of a trilogy means that Fellowship doesn't get an ending, it does its perfectly to make this a journey you want to stay the course with to the very end.

VERDICT

There's nothing I could write or say about Fellowship of the Ring that others haven't said before or said better. One of the most ambitious film projects of all time is befitting of one of the greatest fictional works of all time. This is a rich epic possessing so much depth with a scope that will leave you breathless. Like it's sequels, Fellowship of the Ring is one of the all time greats.

5/5

#the lord of the rings #lotr #lotr trilogy #lotr fellowship #fellowship of the ring #peter jackson #fran walsh #philippa boyens #new line cinema #fantasy #new zealand #weta workshop #weta digital #middle earth #jrr tolkien #hobbits #frodo baggins #bilbo baggins #samwise gamgee #elijah wood #sean astin #ian mckellen #viggo mortensen #sean bean #christopher lee #orlando bloom #ian holm #hugo weaving #john rhys davies #2001 film

[warrioreowynofrohan]

Vice and Virtue in Tolkien’s Works

I’ve been rereading Dante’s Purgatorio (easily my favourite of the three sections, both for having a very satisfying structure and for its themes of repentance and reform), and the structure inspired this post. Each level of purgatory has images, words, or both, associated with the vice being reformed and its corresponding virtue (the examples being drawn both from the Bible and Greco-Roman history and mythology) and it gave me ideas for a discussion of similar themes in Tolkien’s works.

The structure is: 1) Pride/Humility; 2) Envy/Generosity of Spirit; 3) Wrath/Charity; 4) Sloth/Zeal); 5) Avarice/Simplicity; 6) Gluttony/Abstinence; 7) Lust/Romantic Love.

1) Pride/Humility

Saruman: Our time is at hand: the world of Men, which we must rule. But we must have power, power to order all things as we will, for that good which only the Wise can see.

Frodo: I will take the Ring, though I do not know the way.

This is easily the primary emphasis in Tolkien’s works. The fall of all his main villains (Morgoth, Sauron, Fëanor, the Númenoreans, Saruman) and as well as other non-villainous tragic characters (Túrin, Thingol, Turgon, Thorin, Denethor) is characterized by pride - the desire to be the one calling the shots, the desire for greatness and others’ recognition of that greatness, the refusal to listen to the advice or views of others.

It’s there in Melkor’s desire for his theme to be the only one heard in the Music; in Sauron’s desire to rule the world and arrange everything as he thinks best; in Fëanor’s determination to take any advice, correction, or disagreement as a personal attack, his desire for rulership in Middle-earth, and his attitude that the Silmarils are more important than anything anyone else has done or created; the late-stage Númenoreans’ campaign of imperialist conquest. It’s there in Túrin’s, Thingol’s, and Turgon’s rejection of good advice; in Thingol’s attitude towards other peoples, whether it’s Beren or the dwarves; in Denethor’s conviction that Gondor is the only place and people of any account in the war against Sauron.

Humility, in contrast, is mainly seen in the form of hobbits. None of them have any idea what they’re doing when they leave Rivendell (Sam and Pippin don’t even know where Mordor is), and they know they’ve got no idea. They’re not going because they see themselves as specially skilled or qualified, but because it needs to be done. And that’s the very reason Frodo can resist the Ring so long, and Sam can resist it, because they don’t have any grand ideas of themselves.

The ability to say I don’t know what I’m doing, but I’ll try to do what’s right is pretty crucial to humility; even members of the Fellowship who are far more experienced, skilled and knowledgeable than the hobbits show it. Aragorn says it, in the search for Merry and Pippin when they’re captured by orcs. Pride could easily say I need to go with the Ring-bearer, that’s the most important task or I need to go to Gondor and lead the war against Sauron as their King. But Aragorn lets himself trust in other people doing their parts, and focuses on rescuing his companions - the thing that no one else is a available to do - even as the chase seems increasingly hopeless. It’s also seen in Gandalf, who openly admitted he was scared to go when the Valar first sent him, and wandered around as an old man in a battered cloak and hat, talking with everyone, rather than setting himself up as a Respectable Dignified Authority Figure the way Saruman did.

The Silmarillion has fewer examples of humility than LOTR (perhaps why things turn out so much worse there) but there are a few in the Leithian. L��thien is another case of saying I don’t know what I’m doing, but I’ll do it because no one else will when she sets off to rescue Beren. Finrod walks away from his crown and realm to help a friend.

2) Envy/Generosity of Spirit

Denethor: I will not step down to be the dotatd chamberlain of an upstart.

Faramir: My lord, you called me. I come. What does the king command?

Envy is akin to pride, but I’m characterizing it as being specifically the resentment of being surpassed (or even equalled) by another.

Fëanor is again a major example of this, specifically in his resentment of Fingolfin and of the descendents of Indis more generally. Peoples of Middle-earth notes that he resented the name Nolofinwë (Fingolfin’s Quenya name, roughly means ‘wise-Finwë or ‘learned-Finwë’) due to regarding himself as not only the most skilled of the Noldor at craftwork (which he was), but also the most skilled at lore/scholarship (which he wasn’t), and likewise resented the name Arafinwë (Finarfin’s Quenya name). He’s in a mental place of resenting anything positive that can be said about his brothers as if it inherently detracts from him. And he takes the same attitude towards Men (‘No other race shall oust us!’), treating their very existence as a threat to the Eldar. Losgar is the peak of this: he’s willing to sabotage his own war effort to prevent Fingolfin from participating. This is contasted with Maedhros’ attitude after being rescued by Fingon, when he willingly gives up the crown and, later, moves across Beleriand to the most exposed section of the northern border to avoid conflict. His own status isn’t his priority; peace with his family and the best interests of the war against Morgoth are his priorities.

Denethor is another major example, seeing both Aragorn’s return and Faramir’s respect for Gandalf as personal affronts to himself. (Gandalf points out that the literal job description of a steward is to be in charge until the king returns. When the king comes back, that means you’ve done your job, not that you’re being demoted. Denethor is not interested in hearing this.) He’s also mentioned in the Appendices to have resented the respect and admiration recieved by Thorongil [i.e. Aragorn in disguise] during the days of their youth. In very similar ways, Saruman resented the high regard that some (like Galadriel) had for Gandalf, and saw Gandalf as a rival. Thorongil and Gandalf were not interested in rivalry; they were more interested in what was achieved than in who was achieving it. Faramir is the contrast here - he is interested in the good of Gondor, not his own status, and has no jealousy of Aragorn.

3. Wrath/Charity

Fëanor: See, half-brother! This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls.

Gandalf: It was Pity that stayed Bilbo’s hand; Pity, and Mercy, not to strike without need.

I would say that this is the third-most-emphasized of the vices in Tolkien’s works, after pride and avarice. And, of course, another Fëanor example: both his threat on Fingolfin’s life and his actions during the Return of the Noldor, the latter being driven by wrath primarily against Morgoth and secondarily against everyone else in his vicinity (Valar! Teleri! Fingolfin and anyone who supports him!). It’s the spillover that’s the problem, and the self-centredness; hating Morgoth isn’t a problem in and of itself, but Fëanor’s taking the fight against evil and turning it into a personal vendetta, with disastrous consequences.

Túrin is another example, most particularly in three events: causing the death of Saeros, burning the hall of Brodda in Dor-lómin, and killing Brandir. The former two are provoked, the latter isn’t, but all of them are sudden deeds of anger that only serve to make matters worse.

The contrasting virtue is charity, mercy shown to people that you have good reason to be hostile towards. Fingon’s rescue of Maedhros. Lúthien’s sparing of Curufin when he and Celegorm attacked her and Beren. Frodo sparing Gollum and treating him with kindness and compassion.

4. Sloth/Zeal

Guard Hobbit: It won’t do no good talking that way. He’ll get to hear of it. And if you make so much noise, you’ll wake the Chief’s Big Man.

Merry: Shire-folk have been so comfortable so long they don’t know what to do. They just want a match, though, and they’ll go up in fire.

This is comparatively less of an emphasis in Tolkien’s works than some of the other pairings, but I can think of some examples. The best one is Saruman’s takeover of the Shire and the subsequent liberation. Sloth is the characteristic hobbit vice (not gluttony; I’ll get to that); they tend towards being comfortable and complacent and don’t like being bestirred. Even Frodo dawdled around for half a year after learning about the Ring, mostly because he was reluctant to go. And under first Lotho and then Saruman, everyone (except Tooks) more or less puts up with an abuses because they don’t want the trouble or danger of standing up against them. It’s the return of Merry, Pippin, Sam, and Frodo, who have experience fighting evil on a much larger scale (and who can organize things) that spurs them to stand up for themselves and their home.

5. Avarice/Simplicity

Celegorm: For the Silmarils we alone claim, until the world ends.

Gandalf: I wonder what has become of [the mithril-shirt]? Gathering dust still in Michel Delving Mathom-house, I suppose.

Avarice is, I would say, the second-most-emphasized vice in Tolkien’s works, after pride. The central conflicts in both The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings are objects (they’re in the titles!): the Silmarils and the Ring. The Oath is almost the strongest possible expression of avarice, the most extreme statement of this is mine that a person can make; The Ring is an even more extreme expression, as Sauron makes an object that is literally part of himself. And both conflicts are resolved through the renunciation of claim on these objects, in Eärendil’s journey to Valinor (and the Silmaril becoming a star that is seen by everyone and owned by no one) and Frodo and Sam’s mission to destroy the Ring.

The Silmarils themselves are not evil; they are good and hallowed objects, and fights between elves, dwarves, and men are the result of the Oath (the kinslayings) and the connection with the dragon-contaminated and Mîm-cursed treasure of Nargothrond (Thingol and the dwarves of Nogrod). The Ring is evil, and inducing avarice is its most basic power, even among people like Sméagol and Déagol who could never actually wield it; letting it go is incredibly difficult, and Bilbo and Sam are the only people in the history of the Ring ever to do it.

Avarice is also a central theme in The Hobbit, and dragon-treasure is specifically noted as provoking avarice in people who are in any way inclined towards that vice. Smaug is practically a physical manifestation of avarice in his rage over losing one small cup that he has no use for from an immense hoard, and both Thorin and the master of Lake-town fall prey to the dragon-sickness.

I’ve given ‘simplicity’ as the antonym, and I thought of ‘generosity’ as well, but neither of those is quite right. The opposite of avarice is holding lightly to things, and it’s a particular virtue of hobbits. This is seen both in their birthday parties (the tradition of giving away possessions) and the Michel Delving Mathom-house, a museum for old heirlooms that people feel they don’t need to have around. The most beautiful example is Bilbo’s mithril-shirt (worth more than the entire Shire!) spending some time sitting around there.

It’s worth nothing that the vice of avarice in Tolkien’s works isn’t associated with having stuff, just with holding to stuff. Bag End being comfortable isn’t a problem. The Noldor having piles of jewels isn’t a problem provided that they’re sharing them and letting them go, as in the Noontide of Valinor (gemstones scattered on the seashore!) or Finrod giving them away in Middle-earth. The issue comes when the owning becomes what a person values; the signal that Fëanor is becoming too tied to the Silmarils is when he prefers to lock them away so no one else can see them.

6. Gluttony/Abstinence

Gollum: He’ll eat us all, if he gets it, eat all the world!

The lembas had a virtue without which they would long ago have laid down to die. It did not satisfy desire...and yet this waybread of the Elves had a potency that increased as travellers relied on it alone and did not mingle it with other foods. It fed the will, and gave strength to endure...

Gluttony is distinguished from avarice as the desire to consume things, not merely accumulate them. This is an interesting one, because Tolkien has no issue with the consuption of large amounts of food for enjoyment (which hobbits do frequently and enthusiastically!). As with possessions, enjoyment of physical things isn’t seen as problematic. The enjoyment of everyday pleasures is specifically discussed as morally desirable in a way that contrasts with avaricious accumulation (“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”)

However, there is one large (very, very large) example of the concept of gluttony as unlimited consumption and appetite: Ungoliant. Ungoliant represents not the hoarding of things, but their destruction, and is continually described with very physical terms of appetite and devouring. Shelob and the spiders of Mirkwood are lesser versions of the same concept. There are other mosters in the same vein: Sauron’s werewolves and Carcharoth. On of the names for Carcharoth is Anfauglir, the Jaws of Thirst, specifically invoking the idea of insatiable consumption.

And gluttony can be described more broadly as an form of overconsumption which uses up or destroys things; pollution could be a modern-day example. Looked at in that way, gluttony can be considered the end-stage of all evil in Tolkien, in the same way that pride is its beginning-stage. The ruin of the Anfauglith, the Desolation of the Morannon, the trees of Fangorn used to feed the fires of Isengard or hacked down for no purpose (and even Losgar, if you like) are all its work. Gollum (heavily driven by mundane hunger) grasps this when he fears Sauron regaining the Ring: “He’ll eat us all, if he gets it, eat all the world!” Ungoliant is the final stage of all evil.

In the same way that hobbits enjoying ample meals isn’t treated as a moral flaw, abstinence isn’t particularly notable as a virtue. However, it does come up in forms like Sam noting that lembas provides more endurance as the hobbits rely on it solely in their final journey to Mordor. This indicates that Tolkien regards the ability to go without physical pleasures when necessary as a virtue (also symbolized by Sam’s heartrending decision to give up his cooking gear!) but doesn’t place value on ascetism for its own sake.

If we want to expand on the metaphorical idea of gluttony as overconsumption/destruction, then we can also see healing/restoration as its opposing virtue, in forms like the box of soil that Galadriel gives Sam, which he uses to restore the trees of the Shire.

7. Lust/Romantic Love

Celegorm became enamoured of [Lúthien]...they purposed to let the King perish, and to keep Lúthien, and force Thingol to give her hand to Celegorm.

Beren: Though all to ruin fell the world, and were dissolved and backward hurled, unmade into the old abyss, yet were its making good, for this - the dusk, the dawn, the earth, the sea - that Lúthien for a time should be.

Lust is often regarded simply as a term for physical attraction, and its condemnation as a type of prudishness, but I’m going to present a different take, one that draws on its connection with the two preceding vices (the three are consistently grouped together by Dante). Lust is when the two previous desires, of ownership and consumption/use, are applied not to objects but to a person.

It’s an extremely rare vice among elves, with only a few examples in Elvish history: Celegorm, Eöl, Maeglin. In all cases, there is sexual desire combined with the desire for control, turning to violence when that control is thwarted: Celegorm’s imprisonment of Lúthien in the attempt to force her to marry him, and the later assault on her and Beren; Eöl’s restrictions on Aredhel and murder of her when she leaves him; Maeglin’s attempt to kidnap Idril during the Fall of Gondolin.

In contrast, the examples of romantic love, which are primarily the elf-human couples and especially Beren and Lúthien, combine desire with value for the freedom and identity of the beloved, and with self-sacrifice (or willingness to take on risks) for their sake. Beren’s song before setting out for Angband is a celebration of Lúthien’s existence, irrespective of what may happen to him. Lúthien counters with the expression that she does not want to exist apart from him, and purpose of lovers is to act together and to guard and support each other. Elwing runs through the waves to Eärendil on the shores of Valinor because she would rather face the same risks he does than be safe apart from him. Eärendil accepts immortality for love of Elwing. Arwen accepts death for love of Aragorn.

#tolkien #the silmarillion #the lord of the rings #christianity #ethics #moral philosophy #fëanor #frodo #gandalf #sauron #beren #lúthien #ëarendil #elwing #celegorm #sam gamgee #denethor #faramir #saruman

[outofangband]

Do you have headcanons of Maiar in Angband's military hierarchy?

Angband World Building and Aftermath of Captivity Masterlist

Place of Glaurung, Gothmog and Sauron in the Hierarchy

I think I have more posts on this but these are the main ones!

First, a rather extensive note about the Maiar of Angband

The exact number of Maiar serving Melkor is unknown. In what is generally considered canon we have Sauron of course, Gothmog and other balrogs, Thuringwethil (though her origin and that of any of the other vampires if the others are indeed Maiar, is also unclear.*), and Ossë for a time. in the book of lost tales version there is another called Langon who is a herald to Melkor but who is destroyed by Tulkas and subsequently returned to Mandos his former Vala after the Darkening.

I personally enjoy his character and tend to have him appear even after the darkening especially as the circumstances of his destruction were also something that were discarded from the later versions.

Also from The Book of Lost Tales is Telvido. Telvido, the Prince of (monster) cats, appears in the Book of Lost Tales and Beren and Lúthien. In some versions, he is a forerunner to Sauron himself rather than a distinct figure. Little is known about him or his fellow cats but his personality is obviously influenced by a malicious reading of felines; he is sly, intelligent, cruel and at times playful, toying with his prey. I also enjoy Telvido as a figure of his own right and have my own thoughts about where he fits into the Hierarchy of Angband

Whether the dragons are also Maiar and the exact nature of werewolves remains a matter of debate.

I also do headcanon there were more Maiar than just those listed above.

ANYWAYS

The Maiar of Angband are at the top of pretty much any formal hierarchies with only Melkor above them. Not all Maiar or Maiar adjacent beings are equal however and there are still more internal hierarchies among them.

The simplest one with respect to military is Gothmog, High Captain of Angband and lord of balrogs. All other balrogs report to him as well as to Melkor. Gothmog is without a doubt the shrewdest and cruelest of them. His role in battle and in military operations is essential. He rallies and commands his own forces while acting as a source of terror and intimidation for the enemies. He is easily recognized and widely feared, taking part in the killing of Fëanor and Fingon and the capture of Maedhros and Húrin which I talk about here. He is a capable strategist though prefers hands on work to long planning and councils.

Gothmog and his balrogs are the primary Maiar who take place in battle personally. The other balrogs also hold higher ranking positions, usually generals though they defer always to Gothmog.

Sauron oversees a variety of operations in Angband as well as military ones but his role as Lieutenant of Angband certainly encompasses that as well. He is primarily a strategist, rarely taking part in larger battles during the first age though he does control several important operations including holding Tol Sirion for awhile which was vital in controlling northern Beleriand

There are other Maiar involved in the military aspects of Angband but they tend to be on the background rather than leading actual armies in person. More common are various monsters of dubious origin on the battlefield.

I hope this answers your question, anon! Please feel free to ask more!

*I definitely want to make a post at some point about werewolves and vampires in the books because especially the use of the term werewolf is fascinating. The word is an old English one that means man-wolf however the werewolves in Tolkien appear to be monstrous wolves with no aspects of transformation. Given his extensive knowledge of linguistics and of old English specifically the seams of strange oversight if indeed it is one

#the silmarillion #Sauron #Mairon #Angband #Gothmog #in the Iron hell #musing and meta

[anxiety-analysis]

ANXIETY PROFILE: Sauron

Full name: Sauron From: Lord of the Rings

Sauron is truly, the epitome of a character with Generalized Anxiety Disorder. Much like people with anxiety, he doesnt actually have a personality. Most of his anxiety comes from his motivation, which is his fear of disappointing his son and wife. His wife died long ago, but his son wants him to be something in the world, and so sauron becomes an eye, so he can watch and make sure his son doesnt do anything bad. He also uses his eye to witness everyone, as he is anxious people will upstage him, and kill him, and make him not an eye, so he makes an army, a defense of sorts to hide the scared child inside that Sauron is. Sauron actually has three children, one is a man, one a girl, and one a baby. Sauron is terrified of those three children dying, so after his wife dies he is a single father and must protect his children, as since he is so powerful and feared, people may want to kill them or take them hostage, this is primary reason as to why theyre not mentioned ever, its because sauron was afraid. There is zero evidence denying that this is not the events that transpired. AN: Thank you so much for reading!

#posts #lord of the rings #sauron

[absynthe--minded]

for the ship questions: all the odd numbers for russingon??? please and thank you

all the odd numbers!!

okay I am answering this one First but there are some other asks I technically got first so I’m going to exclude a few for the sake of answering all of them! I hope that’s okay. Below the cut for length and some quasi-NSFW discussion.

PRE-RELATIONSHIP:

1. How did they first meet?

this is actually the plot of one of my fics! Finno goes to a party with his parents, wanders off to get drunk and enjoy the free food, and winds up getting very drunk and then seeing Maitimo and assuming he’s a Maia because of how hot he is. he is in fact so very drunk that he straight up forgets that “Curufinwë” and “Fëanáro” are the same person and doesn’t understand why Maitimo is like “what the fuck why are you talking to me oh shit you’re hot”. (Maitimo ditches his date to the party to climb a tree, drink wine, and deal with the fact that he’s suddenly interested in a boy.)

5. Did either of them try to resist their feelings?

Maitimo tried so fucking hard to resist his feelings. He basically tried to be like. Gay But By Telperion’s Light Only. he’d write poetry and burn it, he’d stare into the stars and the silver light and be Dreamy and Distant. (Finno leapt into having feelings with his whole self and everyone knew he was pining after someone. He kept trying to play it off as nothing serious, but everyone around him knew. Everyone.)

7. What would their lives be like if they had never met?

Maitimo would be married to the daughter of one of Fëanáro’s first and most loyal allies in the Tirion court. Her name was Cirissë, she was chosen for him by Fëanáro (with the clear caveat of “if you’d rather marry someone else please give me the name and I’ll arrange it”) and the expectation was that they’d have at least one child named Cantëafinwë. As the eldest of his House and since he didn’t have any great works or passions of his own, his “job” was to carry on Míriel Þerindë’s legacy. If he had objected to this or found something else to do with his life, Fëanáro would have given way, but Maitimo prior to meeting Findekáno was okay with having an arranged marriage. This wasn’t a decision made in spite of his feelings - he’d never said he wasn’t all right with it.

Findekáno would probably be drifting through life without really any sense of purpose - I’m going to assume that history goes very differently if they don’t meet, because not meeting implies that even the Darkening doesn’t quite go as planned - and I think he’d have settled for the single life, floating from party to party and social event to social event without ever really being rooted in something.

GENERAL:

1. Who initiated the relationship, and how did it go?

Findekáno was the one who insisted they become proper friends and start spending time together, and who introduced Maitimo to the joys of fucking around in the meadows outside Tirion on their free days. He was bold, and intense, and bright, and constantly smiling. But it was Maitimo who confessed his feelings. They went out one day - it was Finno’s begetting day, and Maitimo had gotten him a falcon (they took up falconry as an excuse to be out and about and alone for days, but they’d been using Finwë’s mews and Finwë’s birds) and they were with their horses and their birds, and Maitimo very shyly admitted that what he felt was more than friendship.

Finno kissed him, and he almost fell out of his saddle and off his mare.

5. What’s their height difference? Age difference?

Their height difference is a little ridiculous. Maitimo is eight and a half feet tall, which is Very Tall by elvish standards. Finno is seven feet tall, which is on the taller side of “average” - his mother Anairë is taller than he is, and Artanís is like 7′9″. He comes up to about his husband’s sternum. Maitimo isn’t really built, though? He’s actually quite delicate and slender when you look at him on his own, but compared to quite a lot of other elves he’s buff as hell just by virtue of needing to be muscular to move all those bones around. Their age difference is actually something that’s kind of hard to calculate but I’ve worked it out - Maitimo is 90 solar years older than Finno, he was about the human equivalent of eighteen when his husband was born. They met for the first time when Maitimo was 190 solar years old and Finno was 100 solar years old - they were both adults, in the same stage of life.

7. Who takes the lead in social situations?

It depends on the social situation tbh! Findekáno tends to take the lead in most things that involve being a bright and shiny polite happy public figure, because he’s charismatic and intuitive and good at that kind of thing, but Maitimo will lead if it’s one of his few areas of expertise or if his husband is floundering. He does have a flair for the dramatic and it’s a very natural thing for him.

9. Who whispers inappropriate things in the other’s ear?

They both do, because they’re fortunate enough to have a telepathic bond that lets them communicate silently in a room full of other people. It made for some fascinating council meetings the few times they wound up sharing a space in that way.

LOVE:

3. Who uses cheesy pick-up lines?

Elves don’t really have cheesy pick-up lines, but they’ve both fallen victim to sappy poetry. Maitimo probably holds the record there for sheer number of dumb things he’s said solely for the purposes of getting Finno’s attention, though. There are. A Lot of those.

5. Who initiates kisses?

Maitimo. Always, constantly. His primary method of affection and of emotional expression is “Kiss Husband” and he does it all the time.

7. What are their favorite things to do together?

I’m excluding sex from this because the answer to that question is “sex”, honestly. They like cooking (Maitimo cooks and Finno watches him), and going riding, and one time Maitimo climbed the side of a cliff and Finno went along with it solely to stare at his ass. Finno is terrible at archery and at the harp but he’ll do both of those things because they make his husband happy. They like reading, and discussing what they’ve read, and if they’d had the chance they would have enjoyed the theater.

9. Who’s more protective?

see this is sort of a weird question because like

Maitimo is Obviously Protective. He glowers, and he glowers protectively, and he does things like plant spies in Nolofinwë’s household so he can keep an eye on his husband’s movements. He considers himself Findekáno’s guard, and he’s very very paranoid so he’s very very good at guarding. (The one time he saves Findekáno from orcs and from Sauron he has several mental breakdowns all at once.) Maitimo is the obvious answer here.

But Finno will cross a room in half a second and vault over like sixteen tables to smack you with his riding glove and demand you duel him if he’s all the way on the other side of the hall and thinks he heard you considering insulting Maitimo.

It goes both ways tbh.

11. What are some songs that apply to their relationship, in-universe or otherwise?

The in-universe songs that apply to their relationship are basically all written about them, lol. I tend to headcanon that the song Findekáno sang is preserved through the ages to some extent and its ultimate form is the song that Sam sings in the tower of Cirith Ungol? So take that as you will.

Out of universe... well, I have a shitton of playlists, but I’ll leave you with the song that inspired my Tolkien Reverse Summer Bang fic, “Last Train Home” by Ryan Star.

13. Who remembers the little things?

It depends on the little things. Maitimo remembers every detail of every military operation he ever devised, but Findekáno remembers what day of the week it is.

DOMESTIC LIFE:

3. How many kids do they have, if any? What are they like?

Gil-galad would have been their kid in a happier world. He’s the biological son of Lalwendë Finwiel and Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod, sent to Barad Eithel when his mother and father were missing-presumed-dead after the Dagor Bragollach, and Findekáno adopted him as his ward and heir but didn’t keep him in Hithlum due to the danger.

(They do, however, have three additional children that they don’t find out about until Valinor, because Sauron is a mad scientist and he had unrestricted access to Maitimo for sixty years, and because Findekáno bled all over the Thangorodrim cliff-face when he slammed face-first into it. Those children are Autamar Autahala, whom I’ve mentioned before (he’s their eldest and the only one who’s descended from both of them), and Alya and Ailinwë, twins who are descended solely from Maitimo. Their three kids show up at their house one day, the same ages as they were when they all died, and that’s a fun time for everyone.)

Gil-galad is brave and fair and just and all that good shit you need to be a king. Autamar is kind of terrifying because growing up in Angband and being groomed to be a puppet ruler will do that to you, but he’s very smart and very dry-witted. Alya and Ailinwë died when they were quite young, but they’re very bright, and Alya is as fond of horses as Maitimo is. She also likes knives.

5. Who’s the stricter parent?

Maitimo. He’s got more experience parenting, as opposed to Finno who died and then suddenly found out that his ward had claimed him as a father - Maitimo basically raised his four youngest siblings, and Elrond and Elros, and he’s very good at being the strict dad. It’s the one thing he’s actually strict about outside his military work. But he’s actually a giant marshmallow underneath his stern exterior and he really wants to be a good father.

7. Who kills the bugs in the house?

This is a non-answer but they don’t kill bugs as a rule they’ll either let them outside or allow predator bugs to live in their spaces - lots of spider neighbors who pay rent by eating gnats. But as a rule Maitimo will do the gross or unseemly things just because he wants them done. Finno is a bit more of an obvious coward when it comes to those things.

9. Who’s more likely to convince the other to come back to sleep in the morning?

Maitimo doesn’t sleep as often as Findekáno does, but Findekáno can usually entice him into coming back to bed.

11. Who likes to dance?

Maitimo is the one who really truly loves partnered dancing. He leads. Findekáno can and will dance alone, but it’s only after he marries that he truly becomes enchanted by the high romance of a good querië.

#guys this is long this is SO LONG #RUSSINGON #absynthe's headcanons #tolkien #moriquendii #replies

[iridescentoracle]

another one from the chatlogs

huh. something something stories repeating themselves at smaller and smaller scales something something subcreation something something evil cannot create anything, only twist what already exists, something something good can create but all creation within the confines of the world is inherently imitation of the creation of the world

a) first conflict with morgoth is when he’s melkor and they’re playing the music that creates the universe; he tries to control and dominate the melody and in so doing introduces evil/suffering/pain into the universe as we know it, so it’s a fight in the form of playing music but also entirely metaphysical

b) the first war with morgoth happens while the valar are trying to create the earth; there is never a garden of eden in the legendarium bc every time they try to build something beautiful he crushes it, and the whole world is physically shaped from day one by a war on a scale we can’t even comprehend

c) physical fight with morgoth #2 is after the elves are discovered and is hugely damaging to the physical fabric of the world but elves do actually survive and the humans and dwarves still more or less in secret hidden hibernation aren’t all killed before they have the chance to exist

d) final battle with morgoth is the war of wrath, which destroys/sinks a continent but ends with enough people alive and not-drowned that we can have the entire rest of the history of the world

e) now our primary antagonist isn’t even morgoth, it’s sauron, and he manages to make the one ring and destroy eregion but still pretty definitively loses that fight in the end

f) and then manages to get númenor sunk and the entire world reshaped but gets himself sunk with it

g) and after a seven-year siege, fights gil-galad and elendil and friends in personal combat and loses that too

h) and finally turns back up a couple thousand years later in time to be defeated for good

and that’s without getting into the ways morgoth and sauron themselves become less and less creative and more and more repetitive, just repeating and reusing their own earlier ideas, as they go

meanwhile the protagonists are always looking back towards earlier days and missing the beauty that once existed in the world but also seeking to create what new beauty they can now

see: lothlorien, everything celebrimbor manages to build in the second age before sauron strikes, the glittering caves gimli discovers near helms deep, gondolin and nargothrond, imladris, erebor, we see it over and over again

and even when they’re following earlier patterns there’s always variety to individual people’s stories!

beren and lúthien manage to tell a story so new and incredible they walk right out of the world as we know it into a happier ending (for them) than anyone was supposed to be able to get

arwen and aragorn echo that story but also have very different personalities and stay engaged in the world around them after they achieve their personal happy ending—beren and lúthien wander off into the woods to live in their own little paradise but aragorn and arwen are king and queen of gondor and have a bunch of kids and found a dynasty that lasts/reigns for centuries, instead of one son who gets himself killed within a couple years and his kingdom summarily destroyed

for that matter, frodo and sam play out part of a story belonging to both beren & lúthien and fingon & maeðros, with sam rescuing frodo from the fortress, but fingon invented Just Walking Into (Worse) Mordor and being rescued by eagles while lúthien decided to raise him kicking sauron’s ass and destroying the fortress, and sam and frodo managed to add destroying sauron while they were at it

idk there’s something there. evil & the fight against evil getting smaller and smaller but good still surviving and managing more and more thorough defeats

#lotr #lotr meta #the lord of the rings #the silmarillion #subcreation #cemende tambe Erumande

[phoenixrisesoncemore]

Tolkien Index

Sauron Meta

The Nameless Enemy (Deep dive into the name "Mairon," why Mairon may have been considered an exemplar of his order, and why being "Admirable" makes it hard to be alone)

Why Is Sauron's Original Name In Quenya If Sauron Was Never In Valinor? (Extrapolating from thoughts in "The Nameless Enemy," why might the Elves have translated The Admirable's Valarin name into Quenya?)

Tolkien the Horror Writer (How Tolkien uses the magnetic power of Sauron's ability to subvert, capture, and direct his image and the image characters have of each other as a horror device)

The Inverted Mountain (On the only moment in LotR where we get a look into Sauron's perspective)

Reckoning Nothing of Wizardry or War (My favorite LotR passage—and a bit about the things that Sauron can't control)

How to Destroy Your Enemies and Influence People (What was Sauron really doing in Numenor? Was it really just about revenge? Or was he "Making a Point"?)

Whom Morgoth Made (On the first appearance of Thu-Sauron in the Primary World and what Tolkien might have meant by calling him one "whom Morgoth made.")

Fixation and Attachment Can Lead to Missing Fingers (On why Sauron seems to have trouble fixing injuries to his physical form even when he can still shape-shift and rebuild a body)

Ordering Reality (On Sauron the conlanger, or how Sauron and Tolkien shared a hobby that allowed them to conceptually organize existence)

Quote: "The Necromancer Is Not Child's Play" Sauron and The Panopticon [r+] Sauron Doesn't Use "Sauron" [r+] Methods of Forging the Rings in Visual Adaptations [r+] Sauron's Villainy as Parody [r+] Quick Thoughts on PE17 Sauron's Numenorean Misinformation Campaign Sauron's Canonically Pretty Handwriting [r+] Babel Builders A Little Sauron Crack More Sauron Crack Evolution of Depictions: When Sauron Became Sexy Excerpts from "Moral Vision in The Lord of the Rings" Bombadil and The Ring Gollum's Song or Sauron's Song Ar-Pharazon the "Besotted"

Metaphysics and Eucatastrophe Meta

The Whole Damn Thing Is Fallen (Some dark and at times personal thoughts on theodicy, the nature of Nature, and Arda (un)Marred vs Arda Healed)

The Whole Damn Thing Is Fallen II (Continuation and elaboration of the previous thoughts on theodicy, the nature of Nature, Arda (un)Marred vs Arda Healed, and Tolkien's Felix Culpa)

Is Eucatastrophe Inherently Teleological? (Questions about whether Tolkien's idea of eucatastrophe requires a universe that is understood to be teleological and differences in reader engagement based on differences in metaphysical viewpoint)

Perspective and Scale [r+] (Adding thoughts about the way Gandalf and Aragorn are able to interact with Middle-earth due to their unique experiences of the extremes of scale)

The Ainur and Subcreation [r+] (Thoughts on The Exploration of Potential Things (imagining/fantasy) > The Invocation of Potential Things (envisioning with a clear purpose/planning) > The Evocation of Potential Things (making))

The Imagining and the Making (Follow up to "The Ainur and Subcreation")

Emergent Properties of Ea (Thoughts on Vaire and Story and whether story can be said to be an emergent property of Ea)

Balancing Myth and Metaphysics [r+] (On Tolkien's struggle between the "legends/mythos" conceptualization—flat world—of the Legendarium and the "theological/scientific"—round world—conceptualization)

They Shaped and Wrought, and Light They Caught (Art as it relates to light imagery in gems and elsewhere in Tolkien's work; light as a material constituent of Ea)

Quote: Tolkien Coins Eucatastrophe Is the Ending of Disney's Hunchback Eucatastrophe or Deus Ex Machina? Justice is Not Healing Tessellating a Feanorean Star

Primary and Secondary World Meta

Valie Evolution [r+] (How Nienna and Varda become more passive but more metaphysically and theologically important, and how they trade the Marian trait of listening back and forth)

The Poet of Prague (Comparing the lives of Prague photographer Joseph Sudek and Tolkien, who both produced work that investigated faerie, light, and story)

Tolkien and Final Fantasy (On what Tolkien might have meant about realist or representational visual media being unfit for Fairy-stories and whether this is why I engaged differently with earlier Final Fantasy games whose graphics were iconographic rather than realist)

The Road Goes Ever On and On (On journeying through the Fall and the perilous call of nature in decay)

How to Make a Flat World Round? [r+] (Thoughts on possible ways to present the physical change of Arda from flat to round in adaptations)

Tolkien and the Far Tree (Letter 96 and Tolkien's thoughts on the power of untold stories like Celebrimbor's)

When the Far Tree Becomes Near [r+] (How The Silmarillion reveals the machinery behind LotR)

Thuringwethil [r+] (Thoughts on the different iterations of Thuringwethil)

Christopher's Work on Maps Tolkien's Elves are Ancient Aliens Christopher and the Tear Tolkien and George MacDonald Tolkien Blames Bilbo for Plot Holes Barahir's Snake Ring [r+] Heraldry Development [r+] How Perspective Makes Aragorn a Better King [r+] Tolkien, Language, and the Construction of Reality The Cauldron of Story and Fanfiction Tolkien Wanted The Hobbit to Be An AU [r+] Owen Barfield on Julian Jaynes American Numenor My Leftist Propaganda Is Tolkien Was the "Atlantis Haunting" Sleep Apnea?

Events, Talks, and Media Meta

Art of the Manuscript (review of the Marquette Exhibition)

The Magic Ring (On my favorite piece at the Maker of Middle-earth exhibit, the original LotR title page)

The Little House of Lost Play (Adele McAllister's performance of Mar Vanwa Tyaliéva among other adaptations)

Tolkien Biopic (Thoughts on the missing Silmarillion in Tolkien)

Thoughts on Project Northmore [r+] (On why I personally have reservations about the project)

Collecting Namárië Performances [r+] Paul Kocher and The Road Goes Ever On Signum Symposium on Christopher Tolkien John Garth on the Catholic Culture Podcast Shaun Gunner on TEP Oxonmoot 2021 Post 1 Oxonmoot 2021 Post 2 Oxonmoot 2021 Post 3 Marquette's The Art of the Manuscript The Nature of Middle-earth American Numenor My Leftist Propaganda Is Tolkien

Read and Reread Liveblogs

The Flame Imperishable: Post 1 | Post 2 | Post 3 | Post 4 | Post 5 | Post 6 | Post 7

The Lord of the Rings: Post 1 |

The Rings of Power Meta

Tom Shippey Discusses the Show Announcement of Writers Main Cast Announcement Some Thoughts on the Nudity Issue Official Summary is Released/Lindon Questions First Image With Two Trees of Valinor Title Announcement and Logo Feature Thoughts on the Celebrimbor Infodump Teaser Trailer "Sauron" Trailer No Annatar?

Tolkien Art and Fic

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#tolkien #sauron #mairon #the silmarillion #lord of the rings #nienna #the hobbit #unfinished tales #the history of middle-earth #the nature of middle-earth #eucatastrophe #metaphysics #linguistics #index post