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theerurishipper · 2 months

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Season 4 and 5 made it just so difficult to truly believe that Marinette really loves her Kitty. The Fandom and show can scream about vague soft eyes and "she loves her kitty so muuuuuuch! <3" however they want, but it says alot about Marinette's character that this vague "I love my kitty" never really gets any more specific.

Saying "I like you / I want you around" doesn't mean anything whne the actions themselves paint the picture of her basically taking Cat Noir for granted and not thinking a single second about his actual well being or his perspective in any of this.

It's like in Glaciator 2 where a good part of the episode Marinette spends either screaming at Cat, manhandling him however she pleases and even invalidating any of his emotions by screaming in his face that HIS emotions don't matter in any of this, this is about HER and her only when she used him not knowing Marinette is Ladybug against him by secretly forcing him to practice with her her confession for Adrien.

She's literally screaming at him that his emotions are irrelevant to her. She just wants him to do whatever she wants and however she wants it bc apparently thats the only way she can stand being around him. And that she got in season 5, how Lovely.

And then later when Cat voices that he thinks Ladybug can't stand him anymore because she screams at him and gets seriously physical Marinette is like "No, no, that doesn't mean she hates you <3"

When, like, yes Marinette. Under anything resembling to normal morality you constantly reducing him to a rag doll, screaming, insulting, replacing him, leaving him behind on the battle field for your own and your friends' benefit and brushing him off would be a perfectly reasonable thing for another person to view as a bad thing. Only YOU would demand of someone to view that as unparalleled depictions of fondness, and that hasn't changed much by Elation.

Her ignoring his discomfort in the kissing scene (closing her eyes again) and then almost turning into Cat's enemy for daring to tell her "no" one time is one unnerving sight to behold. She basically immediately went back to season 4 mode the moment she didn't get what she wanted. I don't even want to imagine what she would have done to him by impulse if that moment had happened in Ladynoir (I hate how CONSISTENT this is...)

and even by the end of the episode she's still only asking him to validate her when he brings her back.

And well, then she leaves.

It's difficult to actually believe that Marinette really values Cat Noir alot. It feels much more like she values and likes how little genuine efforts she has to make in their dynamics to reach a normal standard, and that he's just the most convenient person for her regarding any kind of ugly dirty work or her worst tendencies not coming with regular circumstances. So of course she would like that.

If I had an anger problem, I would probably like the person too who had to learn from me that that's "perfectly reasonable behavior" they should view as GOOD in a dynamic bc i like using them as rag doll, punching bag and tool.

But just because I personally would find comfort in a person accepting that I can do that to them as my way of "showing affection" doesn't it mean that that's a good thing to make soft eyes about.

But the show is not GIVING us much more to work with. Marinette only on rare occasions voices anything she even likes about him. It goes mostly unsaid so you can claim whatever you want about her feelings for him.

She likes that he's funny, only that the show isn't showing that alot. If at all. Marinette telling Alya in Hack-San to laugh at his jokes because he likes taht is kinda out of left field because Marinette herself honestly doesn't do it alot. The normal reaction is her being annoyed, shutting him up and even insulting him, down to any kind of "slapstick".

And the most I can remember her having SAID about being in love with him in season 5 was being thirsty about how hot he is. I don't wanna be mean but no wonder Alya basically disregarded Marinette's crush. It's not like she ever named anything serious, and tahts....honestly awful.

With Adrien as Cat Noir there was NEVER a question if he values her for more than her being pretty. He loves her brilliant mind, her determination, her drive to help people. Him complimenting her for being pretty was just the cherry on top.

But only towards Joan of Arc did she mention that she likes his loyalty, but that got ruined by her straight up AGREEING with her whne she insulted Cat and the "loyal" part was only to save her own face. She literally agreed with someone insulting Cat right in front of him and only said "yeah, but he's LOYAL" which of course made him insecure. He couldn't see Joan of Arc, how many people are there and what the insult was Ladybug just agreed with. He can't defend himself and saw that Ladybug literally WON'T.

So which one is it, Marinette? Is he hot or a runt who's lucky he's loyal? Why was Joan's opinion of you the whole episode the only thing you actually cared about to the point where you were fine with throwing the person you love oh so much to the dogs again? And Cat looking bad and humiliated again was barely an afterthought to you, as long as it wasn't YOU?

If she actually loves and value him then why is she still treating him as if he merely spawns into existence for akumas or her entertainment and benefit as her care taker? Why isn't Marinette trying to make up for how she used her civilian side to make him do whatever she wants several times by now, as if she never even conciders how this will look like once they reveal (I would loose sleep if I did that to a person!)?

Why was she still perfectly fine with him being completely isolated and having no one in a case of emergency, meaning she always continued letting him run the risk of ending up the way he did in the season 5 finale? Cat being found as a civilian by Hawkmoth was from day 1 one of the most obvious things that could happen and even after 2 what if episodes this fate of his was never actually avoided, because Marinette always just prioritized getting HERSELF out of the equation more than him truly being safe.

That's a risk she was apparently from start til the end perfectly willing to take.

5 entire seasons and the only safety thing she cared about in their dynamic is that if he gets caught and is at the villain's mercy, he does so as quietly as possible so she isn't bothered by it and can close her eyes, cover her ears and go "Lalala".

If Marinette in any of these 5 seasons thought Cat deserved help too than she sure never acted like it, and in fact demanded the complete opposite for her own comfort.

How am I supposed to believe that Marinette loves and values Cat Noir as a person when non of that or his entire personhood goes beyond what little she wants for her own comfort? If you love a person you would actually want them save and not remain in harms way but accept that you shouldn't be asked to care about that? Or remain completely isolated in the dangerous lives you lead without being allowed to ask muvb of anything from you support wise?

Or constantly ditched on the battle field, being done who knows what to so YOU and your friends are fine while you execute the actual plan with the others.

You would ask questions if they're okay and if they need help too, and not just take any half an indicator your being given to write off any concern because you apparently don't actually wanna think about any of that.

You would actually think about them in any decision you make because this is not just about you and their well being should mean something to you. You would tell them things so you don't risk them getting hurt by having to find out themselves the worst way (and here leading to akumatizations).

You would let them made their own choices, have agency and not just when you're forced to. You wouldn't casually execute a plan to trick them into revealing their important secret identitiy to two people without their consent or knowledge, and ESPECIALLY not when the god damn angry authority figure, who already doesn't lie your partner, would fucking use it to get rid of them behind YOUR BACK TOO.

You wouldn't want physical harm being done to them instead of even being a main source of it, and never taking accountability for that while demanding to never get touched and spoken to in a single wrong way. You wouldn't want that they accept that you don't owe them anything as their LEADER but they owe you EVERYTHING because you said so and can't handle anything else in a "partnership".

(Only to feel sorry about it for 2 minutes when you loose everyone else but, well, not really I guess? Or else she would have tried making up for it in season 5 more than just surface level stuff that was once again mostly for HER benefit anyway. But more than that never happened)

You wouldn't want to think they're stupid for not thinking like you and draw the line at any "back talking" you're being given bc you apparently concider anything else but absolut obedience and blind faith as your little puppet as you being "disrespected". So they must walk around you like on eggshells and only talk in soft compliments and supportive words cause who knows how you would react otherwise?

Dude, no wonder Ladynoir is fucking dead. Good for Adrien, and I hate that we've come THIS far. Such a thing is one of the last things I ever wanted to say when I started watching the show. Now I can't be angry taht Ladynoir is fucking dead and Cat Noir didn't made it out of the partnership for the finale, because wtf else was this supposed to result in??

I just cannot fathom the type of "Love" and fondness Marinette supposedly has for Cat Noir. Whatever fondness she feels for him gets drowned out by other 20 red flags about her not actual treating him like a real person.

And man, I HATE that...

Yeah, literally. This is probably harsher than what I think, but it's more or less my thoughts on the matter.

Thank you for your ask!

#ML Salt #ML Critical #ML Writing Salt #ML Writers Salt #Marinette Salt #Asks #Meta #Ladynoir conflict #Ladynoir Salt #Also anon I am so so so sorry for being so late #This is like 2 months late #Anon you're probably not even here anymore but I didn't forget you I promise

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miraculousalt · 1 year

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Love how the S5 finale proofed that Adriens life rlly is just handwoven away in the terms LadyNoir was set by Marinette thru season 4. If Chats life threateningly endangered as civilian o in th hands of villains & in desperate need of help physically an emotionally hes not allowed to ask for Ladybugs help n shouldnt expect bein worth gettin help from any1 else of the 70 billion heros on their side either. bc him gettin help equals "leaving LB high and dry and selfishly asking too much of her". His worth in this partnership depends on how little he inconveniences Ladybug. How lovely.

Chats job on LBs side s rlly just to be the 1 team member Marinette has no obligations towards n flawlessly takin care of her while hardly askin anything in return but owing her to remain all isolated n endurin whatever civilian problems he has by himself if something happens. Which it did. Adrien was locked up ina diffrent country under constant monitoring of Monarch an Tomoe who stands above Gabriel & was put thru agonizing nightmares on purpose so Adrien gives in, puts on the alliance ring n stayed completly @ Tomoes mercy while bein kept unconscious by the ring. That woman could have done anythin she wanted to Adrien once Gabriel failed his mission. Adriens purpose in her eyes IS her deal with Gabriel.

But hey it's fine. Marinette made sure Adrien understands that HE needs no help bc thats HER privilege & if he ever needs it it betta be solvable for her with a band-aid slapped on a open wound or a quick save. If its more or even *gasp* inconvenient for her then Adrien owes LB to die quietly n alone. & that Adrien did so nicely didnt he? Complete refusal to ask for any help cuz poor Ladybug can only be ina partnership with her isolated anonymous partner if she gets all the benefits, a second partner behind his back & Chats acceptance that his suicidal tendencies are not her problem. Cuz thats what Adrien did in the finale. He gave up fightin & gave away his only way of escapin or reaching help on the outside thru Plagg.

Cuz well, Unlike Ladybug Adrien actlly has to follow all the rules forced on them bc LB said she gets to be the exception to evrything but hes selfish if he steps one foot out of the line she sets o reinforces.

Thx S5 finale for makin clear what the priorities r in this partnership. This is so fucking awful but I guess it does validate why I lost all respect for Ladybug an her leadership in this "partnership" in season 4.

The LadyNoir terms Marinette "lovingly" beat in Adriens head r nothin short of glorified abandonment. And when evry danger in Adriens civilian life did eventually end up gettin him its good to know that LadyNoir was settled for good in the Ladybug biased way that Chat thinks it's his responsibility to give up on himself an rather wither away in the prison that is Adriens life before asking a single thing from his partner.

Fucking amazing. & of course Marinette gets to teach it to children for almost a decade as a GOOD thing! Guess theres rlly not much else to expect from Marinette an her stories morality.

#Ml salt #Ml season 5 finale salt #ml season 4 salt #Ml Ladynoir salt #ml leaks #marinette salt #ladynoir critical #ladybug salt #i'm tagging it salt fuck off #ladynoir salt #ladynoir conflict salt

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that-was-a-bit-stupid-of-you · 1 year

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Alya, teaching marinette how to drive: okay so you're driving and you see chloe and sabrina on the road. Quick, which do you hit?

Marinette: oh without question, chloe

Alya, rubbing her temples: the brakes, marinette, YOU HIT THE BRAKES

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gentil-minou · 1 year

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I really should be sleeping but I really think one of the reasons Adrien is so fond of the statue scene and why it led to the realization of his feelings for Mari is because in that scene she's basically doing what he does as Chat Noir to Ladybug.

As in she's speaking his love language.

And I don't mean cringe, I mean honestly saying how she feels, showing open and deep devotion for the other person, a willingness to be vulnerable and dramatic in pursue of passion and love.

It must have been so jarring for Adrien to see Mari act that way, because it really is something Chat would do. And while I do think he thought it was just her joking around, that playfulness is what Adrien adores! And remember in psycomedian how important comedy is for Adrien! And Mari, well she's like him!

That "cringe" that all the haters complain about is exactly what Adrien loves about Mari, because it's exactly how he would express his feelings! And, as we've seen in canon, it is what opens his eyes to her and to his own feelings.

Don't forget Mari has ALWAYS struggled with her feelings and never been clear about them. That's WHY the statue scene happened in the first place, because Adrien thought she hated him. And all he wanted was to know if she maybe, just maybe liked him back. At least as a friend.

What he got instead was something way more, and I really do think it's because once she did say her feelings, in that ridiculous over the top way of hers to a statue, he realized they were more similar than they'd previously though.

LISTEN TO THE BOY.

#insert taylor swift i'm the problem gif here #except the problem is the stupid salters ajdjgjsjfjks #anyways i had to rant everytime someone goes and salts on my puppeteer 2 posts i fight back by spitting more facts #anyways im gonna go read fic and sleep well knowing i actually freaking understand the show lmao #miraculous ladybug #adrinette #ladynoir #puppeteer 2 #ml determination #ml s5 #bushy overthinks things #ml meta

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alteanroyals · 1 year

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not to ruin the adrienette fest but... did they really give up their miraculous without saying goodbye to Chat/Ladybug?? Like am i the only one seeing the huge problem here???????? THEY ARE PARTNERS, THEY ARE BEST FRIENDS, THEY WOULDN'T DISAPPEAR WITHOUT SAYING GOODBYE TO EACH OTHER OMG THEY ARE JUST FINE WITH IT??? NEVER SEEING THE OTHER AGAIN????? ALSO IMAGINE IF IT WAS ONLY ONE OF THEM WHO RENOUNCED THE MIRACULOUS WITH NO EXPLANATION TO THE OTHER ONE??? shut up this is awful i need a fic to cope with this

#i will write it myself if i have to #yes we still have the second part of kwami's choice #BUT LIKE????#ISNT IT WEIRD?????#HELLO?????#US AGAINST THE WORLD??????#ALSO PLEASE DONT TAKE THIS AS SALT #i really liked the episode but... this broke me #ml spoilers #miraculous ladybug #ml #ladybug #miraculous #mlb #chat noir #adrien agreste #marinette dupain cheng #ladynoir

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nixthelapin · 2 months

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A Jekyll&Hyde type akuma whose power is to bring out a hidden or repressed part of your personality (but like, making two of you instead of switching in one body), and when Chat gets hit suddenly there’s both “normal” Chat (I’ll get to that in a sec) and Cat Walker/Patte de Velours at the same time.

(Cue Ladybug freaking out upon learning they’re the same person)

“Normal” Chat looks the same, but is just a bit more intense (since this is Adrien’s way of “letting loose” to not be how he is as a civilian, he’s not too different, but because of the split he does lose some usual traits). I.e. *heavily* flirting with LB, going at it with the puns, more agressive and impulsive with the akuma, doesnt like following orders (especially with the remaining feelings of anger towards the partnership being put further into question as LB prefers CW), heart on his sleeve

Cat Walker is also not super different to the episode he was in, but is also more intense thanks to the akuma: all business- no nonsense, doesn’t laugh at jokes (even in a “I’ll laugh if you want” way, like in Kuroneko), cordial to LB, follows LB’s orders to a T (to the point of not making his own decisions in battle), calm and collected (almost emotionless, even with that plastered smile)

CN starts to hate CW as the fight goes on, because LB seems to prefer him (and she’s understandably getting annoyed with CN’s impulsivity). CN gets territorial, saying that he’s LB’s partner. CW: “then why did she replace you with me?” (Man, look at all the self hatred in Adrien’s psyche!)

So CN runs off and leaves them alone to fight the akuma. This ticks LB off even more, but she has an akuma to deal with- and she has CW- so she lets him go.

As the fight goes on, some of the same issues from Kuroneko occur, so she also gets frustrated with CW too.

Since he’s acting more extreme than normal (more like someone awaiting orders than a partner due to the Jekyll&Hyde thing), it causes more problems (like him waiting for her decisions leaving openings where he could’ve done something proactive)

She actually blows up at him, asking why he didn’t do anything (“I was waiting for you to tell me the plan!”), and she says he should be able to think on his own, he doesn’t need her to tell him everything, but- “I thought I was just being what you wanted.”

(He’s shocked and genuinely hurt- though it’s still pretty quiet emotion, subdued and apologetic)

And that’s when it clicks for her what becoming CW was back in Kuroneko. He was molding himself for her. And this version of CW is even more of that. She realizes just how much CN suppresses, not just for her, but for everyone- why else would this be a major aspect of his personality?

(Also, Patte de Velours? Velvet Paw? That’s basically saying he’s been declawed. Yikes.)

She makes CN get his butt back to the fight (or she finds him- he may have been doing something while away like talking with someone, maybe Alya or Nino, or Luka). CN and CW argue more, with insults. Then she goes on a whole rant/lecture to them about how important they both are, both to her and to each other, how they are one person, and their traits are both important, but each extreme is not great. Ex: instinct/impulse and service/obedience (the key is self control, so that your emotions aren’t controlling you, but neither is another person). He is allowed to be both! Neither personality is bad, and hating one is just hating himself- he can’t just reject a fundamental part of himself.

She makes them agree to work together to defeat the akuma. It’s awkward at first, but they get a rhythm by seeing where each one is needed in the plan (LB does still do that, but how they follow is more fluid now). Two cataclysms now! Yay! (Maybe they used their powers already and have to de transform, and they see themselves as Adrien- the same one, not different, and it gets through their skulls. Idk I’m spitballing).

They have a quick talk between the two about accepting each other, it won’t be easy, I’m nervous, we’ll be okay (“yeah, I think we will :)”), etc.

Ends with them combining back with the ladybug cure. Surprise! His outfit is combined too! (Honestly, I just want the ponytail with the fluffy hair)

LB and CN have a talk after recharging about everything. CN apologizes for lying about CW and explains why and how he did it. LB didn’t realize how much he hid. She never meant for him to change or hate parts of himself. He thought she didn’t like the CN parts of him, but LB promises that isn’t true. She admits she did get… annoyed, but never hate! She loves both sides of him. Besides, CW didn’t work out that first time, remember? (Though she very much leaves out her intense crushing being the deciding factor there)

CN admits he feels more, well, not whole, exactly, he’s actually still pretty uncertain about what all this means for “who he is,” but… he can at least say he feels less like he has to perform all the time. He loves being Chat Noir, but he is exaggerating a bit when he transforms, in part to be not like his civilian life. He tells her he’s not like that as a civilian, but he’s also not like Cat Walker. But he’s not really sure who “he” is yet. (What I’m getting at is Oblivio!Adrien- dorky, but not over the top, in love, trusts his lady to make the plan, but is still proactive, etc.)

LB says that’s okay, he doesn’t have to figure it out right away. But she’ll be there to help him figure it out.

END

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lostuntothisworld · 3 months

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They really did have Adrichat really say he hated cauliflower with bechamel sauce in season 4, and then named Marinette Comrade Bechamel the following season where they get together

#finale aside this ship is doomed lmfao #miraculous ladybug #adrien agreste #marinette dupain cheng #adrinette #adrienette #cat noir #chat noir #ladrien #ladynoir #love square #lovesquare #ml salt #miraculous ladybug salt #marichat

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folkloristico · 10 months

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As an Adrien stan who used to defend his writing back during season 3, I take everything back. I feel so sorry about the way he’s been treated by the writers—always put aside, always unaware of what’s happening even when it specifically concerns him.

“It’s better that he doesn’t know that his father was a villain.”

No, it isn’t. Marinette doesn’t get to decide that, Adrien does. He deserves to know that his father was an abuser. Gabriel doesn’t deserve to be remembered as a hero. I wasn’t expecting, nor did I want it, that Gabriel was going to be exposed to everyone because that would’ve reflected badly on Adrien, so I would understand if Marinette wanted to protect him from that. What it’s not fair is keeping him in the dark.

“But Adrienette is finally canon, aren’t you happy?”

As a hardcore Lovesquare fan since season 1, I absolutely am not. I wanted their relationship to be about honesty and trust. Why would I, as an Adrien stan, want him next to a person who’s lying to him? Who will likely be lying to him for the rest of their lives? Mind you, I’m not blaming Marinette (I love her even more than I love Adrien); I’m blaming the writing. For having us believe that any sort of criticism of the show comes from a place of misunderstanding of the canon material, because God forbid someone has an opinion that doesn’t align with the writers’ idea.

Anyways, Marinette and Adrien deserved so much better. Everyone did.

#anyway happy ladynoir july y’all whatever you got planned will be better than canon #ml salt #anti thomas astruc #miraculous ladybug salt #don’t know what others tags to add #adrien agreste #adrien marinette GET BEHIND ME!!!#i love them both so much they did them so dirty

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d1g1k1tty · 9 months

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I keep thinking about this, and I don’t remember if I’ve already said this on here, but Miraculous Ladybug is the only fandom where you will have four very distinct and unique ship dynamics from the same two people.

Like, I adore Adrienette. It’s the classic, dare I say, the OG. It’s just two awkward kids who kinda have crushes on each other. It’s cute and it reminds me of a simpler time. They’re both kind-hearted and shit. It’s just-- akfaljaf;ajfk They were my favorite in middle school and I’m attached. I used to watch that timeskip comic video on Youtube. You probably know the one. I’m not even going to explain it. You know what it is. But, I will say that my favorite panels from that video were the ones were Marinette tells Adrien about her pregnancy by putting a bun in the oven, and he doesn’t get it at first. But anyway.

Then there’s Ladynoir. Again, a bit of an OG. It’s the casual banter, the partnership on the battlefield, the complete and utter trust they have in each other. I love them, and I miss them. I need the flirty Ladynoir dynamic again.

Now, Marichat. I love Marichat, too. They’re just so goofy. It’s like when you meet someone who seems really cool and then you find out that they’re actually a huge dork, and they try to impress you the whole time. That’s the dynamic that they have and I live for it. And also, Chat is just,, so sweet with Marinette. And on the other side of the coin, it’s almost like the secret lover trope. Like, for God’s sake he literally can come in through the balcony in the middle of the night. I love the fics where he’ll just check in on Mari.

And finally... Ladrien. I’ll admit. Out of each ship in the love square, I really, reallly dislike Ladrien. It gives me the vibes of when celebrities get together with their fans... They distract each other too much, and not in the silly goofy way. I just don’t think it’s cute. That’s it. I think I’m done.

#miraculous ladybug #mlb #adrienette #ladynoir #marichat #ladrien salt

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ladyofthenoodle · 1 year

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okay i lied in my last tags i am annoyed that they got over their kwamis leaving in like 3 seconds, didn’t even consider saying goodbye to their partner, and didn’t seem worried that their partner was gone. what happened to marinette being so in love with chat noir last episode? what happened to chat noir being ready to cataclysm scarabella when ladybug didn’t show up? who are these people?

them giving up their miraculous was set up pretty well imo, the episode showed us how miserable they were and gave them a push from the kwamis. but… they’re just over it so quickly. and yeah, there must be a huge sense of relief, especially for marinette, and yeah, they’re excited to be together… but why aren’t they worried about their partners? i’ve accepted (or, well, i’m trying) that canon wants to kill romantic ladynoir, but it seems like now even their friendship doesn’t matter at all. i really want to love this season and the first half of the episode (plus the adrinette hand raising scene) was SO GOOD. but. but.

#i was ready to write a whole ass meta on the first marinette in bed scenes #but then the rest of the episode happened and i’ve got just such mixed feelings right now #why #rip platonic ladynoir too i guess #put in the grave with ladrien and my dream of being a homeowner #miraculous ladybug #ml salt #because i guess i’m salty now #about this anyway #ml spoilers #kwami’s choice #noodling #transmission

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purrincess-chat · 1 year

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Just to clarify that we are all watching the same show (bc I've seen so many takes that make me question my sanity), let's do a love square run down. Correct me if I'm wrong, but:

LadyNoir: Chat put aside his feelings for Ladybug after spending the entirety of s4 being sidelined and chastised for having feelings for her. Ladybug made a mistake with Adrien that has made her too traumatized to pursue him, so she turned to Chat Noir who has now stated that he only loves her as a friend. (Which is probably a lie, he more than likely still loves her but is just trying to respect boundaries she set in s4)

MariChat: Marinette loves Chat bc of her interactions/friendship with him as Ladybug (Chat does not know this). Chat Noir loves Marinette bc of his interactions/friendship with her as Adrien (Marinette does not know this). They both pretty much decided that they couldn't be together in this way, even if it hurts, as a result of information they don't have. (Identities)

Adrinette: Again, Marinette harbors a lot of trauma surrounding Adrien (Adrien does not know this) so she's running away from feelings she clearly still has. Adrien, after giving Ladybug space and growing closer to Marinette, is in love with Marinette and actively pursuing her. This will likely still be a problem bc of the way Marinette is currently feeling, but he's gonna try. Results are pending.

Ladrien: No where to be seen in s5 atm, but we can glean from the other sides that Ladybug would likely be apprehensive around him, and Adrien would probably be respectful/polite. They both know she screwed up and is likely feeling some kind of way about that.

Did I get that right? Is there another version of canon floating around out there that other people are watching? Am I missing an episode? Please let me know for my sanity bc if I have to read another 'x side is canon, all the others are dead' post when none of the sides are actually canon right now, I just might lose it, yall.

#ml spoilers #the love square isnt dead nor is it canon #yall understand that right?#it's important to me that you guys understand that #ml fandom salt #ladrien #adrinette #adrienette #ladynoir #marichat #anyway happy monday morning #im tired both literally and figuratively

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theerurishipper · 9 months

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Ladynoir and (In)Equality

For me personally, the most important thing in any relationship is that both partners are equals in that dynamic. I think that's a reasonable expectation to have. And Ladynoir did fulfill that requirement for me in the first 3 seasons. Even though Ladybug did most of the leadership stuff by making the plans and directing Chat Noir on what to do, it was understood that this was a mutual agreement. They both understood what they were good at, and their dynamic evolved accordingly. Chat Noir was content to follow her lead and Ladybug was content to make the plans and direct Chat Noir.

Season 2 saw the introduction of the inequality that shattered this balanced dynamic between the two, and quite frankly the later seasons only made it worse. It started in Syren, as we all know, where Chat Noir first expressed his displeasure at being left out of the loop when Ladybug was privy to important information that was being kept from him. Of course, Master Fu arrived to barely smooth things over before the issue was dropped for the season and never brought up again. Their dynamic remained as it was, but the cracks began to form here.

The introduction of Ladybug being the Guardian in Season 4 changed this established dynamic, obviously, and Ladybug began to give the Miraculous out to other holders. Keeping Chat Noir out of the loop began to become her MO, and she effectively replaced him with Rena Furtive in all but name. The central conflict of the season was the cracks forming in their relationship because of her new responsibilities and her secret keeping. And the resolution to this, as stated in Kuro Neko and Risk, is that even if he's no longer her partner, she still likes him best.

Now, the previous Ladynoir dynamic was one of equality, where they knew their roles and acted upon them. They were equals, and Ladybug's leadership in their pair was an informal one, one that was mutually agreed upon by them. The introduction of the Guardian role for Ladybug changes this from a mutually agreed upon dynamic to one where Ladybug is, for all intents and purposes, his boss. She is officially his leader, in the sense that if she so wished, he would be obliged to hand his Miraculous over to her. In the sense that she would be well within her rights to replace him if she so desired (which she does do). She is his superior, and he is no more important than the other temporary holders, with the sole exception that he holds his Miraculous permanently (which has now been exacerbated by the fact that all of them are permanent holders now).

Chat Noir received a demotion for no fault of his own, which he did not want, and someone else was promoted to replace him in the position he once occupied. Rena Furtive is Ladybug's special partner. Chat Noir is not Rena Furtive's equal, and he is definitely not Ladybug's equal.

This is not about a woman making more money than a man. She isn't just more successful than him, and this isn't about him being insecure about her being better than him. The problem is that Ladybug is Chat Noir's direct superior, and she has power over him. She has the power to call him when she needs him, and if not him, she'll get someone else. She has the resources to figure out his identity without him being none the wiser. She has the power to replace him if she wishes. Far be it from him to allow her to lead of his own accord, now he is obliged to follow her orders. She has the power to control what he knows and how he acts, and she has the power to keep vital information from him.

None of this is inherently "bad." But when you look at it from the context of them being on a path to a romantic relationship with each other, that's where the problems begin. Two people in a relationship should not have a dynamic where one has so much power over the other. Ladybug has so much power that she is able to slide a third teammate into their partnership and slowly push him away from his role at her side. She, quite unfortunately, can and has abused his trust because she had the resources to do so. The only opportunity he had in Season 4 to make his own choices that were not dictated by Ladybug's rules was when he quit. The final takeaway from this Ladynoir conflict is that Chat Noir is her favorite subordinate now (because Rena Furtive has replaced him), and just because they aren't equals anymore doesn't mean she doesn't want him around.

And, no, this was not corrected in Season 5. Season 5 was a return to their original dynamic, not because Ladybug and Chat Noir worked around this new shift in their relationship to find a way to overcome this new power imbalance. It's because Ladybug's power was forcibly taken away from her by a third party, and the only reason Chat Noir is her special partner again is because there is no one else left. But the end of Season 5 sees everyone come back, as permanent holders no less, and Chat Noir is once again demoted to his role as "just another holder like any other."

With the establishment of the Ladybug and the Black Cat Miraculous as two halves of a duo, equals in power, you'd expect them to be, well, equals. Me being upset about the inequality of these characters isn't with regards to screentime, or my wish for Adrien to be the main character or anything. My wish is for Adrien to be a character of his own. My wish is for the show to stop promoting such unhealthy dynamics as cute and fine. If they had simply made Adrien's role out to be the love interest, if they had just literally made him Ken who is content with just being Barbie's trophy boyfriend from the very beginning, if that was all his role has ever been and was meant to be from the start, I wouldn't be complaining so much. But the one they reduced into the role of Marinette's prize, the one over whom she has so much power, is the abuse victim whose arc is about self-actualization. And it paints a very disturbing picture. That far be it from Chat Noir to expect any kind of equal treatment from Ladybug, he's going to have put aside any discomforts or issues he has with their relationship to settle for being her favorite by virtue of nostalgia.

And it's just... bad, on a narrative level. Despite its ambitious introduction of so many plot points, the focus of this show has always been its romance. The main narrative goal of the series is for Ladybug and Chat Noir to get together. So, when your narrative hinges on these two characters getting together, and you decide to introduce such a power dynamic into the mix, saying "I still like you," isn't the fix that it's cracked up to be. If they are supposed to be the relationship around which the show is built, Chat Noir should be Ladybug's special partner, he should be her equal and not just another holder whom she likes better than everyone else. Ladynoir's relationship is directly tied to their partnership, and their dynamic as partners is the basis for any future romantic relationship between them. Introducing such an inequality between them in their partnership does affect their ability to be able to get together, and not in a good way.

This isn't a bad plot point. I like Ladybug being the Guardian, I like that they didn't just brush off the fact that there would be some changes in their dynamic. What I dislike is the way it was resolved, with Ladybug essentially saying that they would never be equals but she still likes him. A power imbalance does not a healthy relationship make. Ladynoir do not have a relationship where they are both completely aware of everything they should know. Chat Noir really cannot do anything in their dynamic, because Ladybug has all the control over everything. It's Ladybug controlling this information and Chat Noir accepting that he'll never be treated the way he wants to be treated, because he's been conditioned to believe his feelings don't matter. And she never did end up correcting this, and the conflict as it is ended with him forgiving her for everything even though she never apologized, and accepting that this is how it's going to be.

And it's not good. This isn't the Ladynoir I signed up for, honestly. I signed up for the Ladybug who accepted Chat Noir unconditionally and the Chat Noir who supported Ladybug through everything. I did not sign up for Ladybug trying to pull a Gabe and Chat Noir only being her emotional support who suppresses his own needs for her. The Ladynoir conflict and its less than satisfying resolution caused irreparable damage to the Ladynoir dynamic (it's irreparable because the writers don't see a problem with it and so they'll never fix it), and this has only continued into Season 5, which said "why fix it when I can make it worse."

#MLB #Marinette Salt #ML Salt #Meta #My meta #I know it's too late to be ranting about Season 4 when the Season 5 finale exists #But I needed to say it #Ladynoir conflict

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familyagrestefanblog · 11 days

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The existence of the Ox miraculous is such an unnecessary ugly detail when you think about Ladynoir and how Chat Noir served as the punching bag and scapegoat for Ladybug, Alya as Marinette's actual partner in season 4, and the whole team in every single way pre-s5

The Ox gives the power of immunity even against any other Miraculous power. One would think with Adrichat's self-harming tendencies that canon had Marinette make entirely about herself because "they're haunting her so much", and her still narratively entirely unchallenged tendency of leaving Chat Noir behind on the battle field as sacrifice or bait to possibly have whatever the hell done to him so she can be save and sound while she and everyone else can look and be cool on his expense

With all that, one would have thought that if Canon Marinette truly loved Chat Noir "sooooooo much" and is oh so haunted by his self-harming behavior and him always getting hurt so she sidelined him "for his own good"

Then how come at no point did Marinette do the actually caring thing by giving Chat Noir the Ox miraculous since he's ALWAYS left behind BY HER so she can leave the battle field and execute her plans with the others save and soundly? If her Chaton's well-being was oh so important to her and it always "pained her so much" to see him getting hurt then why was the Ox only used 2 insignificant times by Ivan at the end of season 4 when it could have saved Chat Noir ALOT of suffering all the way through?

Or the turtle. Or ANY OTHER Miraculous for that matter?

Why was Alya getting two miraculous in Hack-San perfectly fine with Marinette but heaven forbid Marinette is actually expected to ACT like she gives a damn about Chat Noir's well-being as his leader, guardian, partner, and friend and not just the show having her claim superficial words that hardly have anything to back them up once they actually have to mean something?

Its almost as if Canon inherently doubled down on having Marinette be the kind of leader who will only do things in a way that primarily benefit HER while everything else gets swept under the rug because she isn't maliciously intentioned and then never brought up again. And unfortunately it was her who was written to prioritize making an unnecessary team of 18 miraculous holders no one ever asked of her to form (Su-Han even told her NOT to give out the miraculous like candy),

so Marinette was just made to not consider Chat Noir either at all or simply not as worthy enough of any kind of consideration in her entire leadership/ guardianship or actual safety, support, or ANY KIND of resource since that wouldn't be narratively about her, now would it?

She can't have Chat have the Ox because she might need Ivan as Ox in 4 months and she doesn't want to have to ask Chat to get it back or end up NOT getting to use this ONE other Miraculous out of a whole ass box, because that would involve a basic ass conversation Marinette can't have apparently or her not getting to use all of the miraculous however she pleases at any given point

The horror. Now she would have only 14 miraculous to work with!

As per usual, count me fucking unimpressed by Marinette's writing. The negligence towards Chat Noir on even the most basic level is insane and she was declared the epitome of leadership and kindness for this.

Cool that Marinette already decided in her head that Ivan is suitable for the Ox miraculous and he should get it in future, but Chat Noir needing help and protection wasn't some theoretical case, it constantly happened right in front of her eyes and even by her own freaking orders too because she never thinks of him in ANYTHING and the show glorified the hell out of her as leader for doing all that

Why is looking into ANY detail only making Marinette's side of Ladynoir so much worse ever since season 4? There is no escaping this! Just don't add the Ox with this power or actually have Marinette be a good leader towards Chat Noir. But noooooooooo.

#ml writing critical #Ml Marinette critical #Ladynoir conflict salt #Marinette is unfortunately still an awful leader to Chat Noir but can't be called out for ANYTHING #No matter what price Adrien has to pay for it #Rip Ladynoir #And Rip Marinette I once loved so much #Ml season 4 salt #Ml season 4 critical

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