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wen-kexing-apologist · 7 months

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Can I ask, why do you love BL romance better than het romance? What makes them better? I did not mean anything negative, and I know everyone have their own like and dislike but I want to know your thoughts....

Also what do you think that made Asian MLM (BL manga/manhwa/manhua/tv series/movies) romances better than western MLM romances?

Hello! Yes you are more than welcome to ask :) I truly, truly love getting asks in my inbox and have been having so much fun with the fact I’ve actually been getting some recently! Warning this is long (but i have TL;DRs for everything)

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I think the fastest answer for me is that I am queer, and therefore I find I have a lot more enjoyment and interest in watching queer stories compared to heterosexual ones.

Also, I find a lot of heterosexual romances to be steeped in misogyny, and have low-key or high-key abusive dynamics. And again, do not get me wrong, there are plenty of queer shows where there are abusive dynamics in play, but it is much harder for misogyny to be committed between two men than it is for misogyny to be placed on a male/female pairing. (I love GLs cause, you know…women, but there are a lot more complex dynamics going in to stories written about two women and those can get much trickier for me, and unfortunately many narratives love punishing lesbains with death so.... Anyway, I’m trying to stick mostly to BLs since that is primarily what this ask is about.)

Additionally, I love BLs more than heterosexual romances because of how BLs treat men. Men in heterosexual romances, especially in the West are extremely masculine, often unable to be in touch with their emotions, jaded, misogynistic, they have to be extremely muscular, and we almost never see femme boys or men.

BLs have such a vast range of men, they have twinks, they have femmes, they have gym bros. They have the clowns, and the super masculine boys. There are shows that let boys be boys, be stupid, and stinky, and fucking gross (hey Pat from Bad Buddy), they let boys be angry and aggressive and express their emotions that way (Sean and Yok’s fight in Not Me, Han Baram and Im Hantae’s conversation in the boxing ring in Sing My Crush, Lom and Nuea in The Wedding Plan, Patts in La Pluie), they let boys fight and wrestle and play (Bad Buddy, My School President, Moonlight Chicken, Only Friends). I love queer stories that let men be gay and ensure through the story that that never undermines their masculinity. I love that there are shows that focus on the progress older men can make in their relationships (What Did You Eat Yesterday?) THEY ARE ALSO ALLOWED TO CRY!!!!

And though it is still kind of rare, Asian BLs actually do have femme boys, and while I am sure femme boys exist in Western shows, I think Pose and fucking Glee are like…the only two shows with queer people that I have seen in the last decade that have an femme boy representation at all. On the flip side, I love how often GMMTV puts their boys in drag and that doesn’t even have to be in a queer show. I also generally love the fact that most of the male actors in Asian BLs, and again, especially in Thailand embrace their femme sides in photoshoots and whatnot, that they wear earrings, and jewelry, and makeup and they look hot as fuck, because it helps me with my own gender identity. I feel and see myself much more masculine (and have less dysphoria) when I have an earring or a necklace or makeup on, now that I have seen so many boys do the same.

TL;DR: I am queer, and heterosexual romances are frequently misogynistic, and men are extremely masculine and rarely allowed to be soft. Asian BLs give us a very broad range of masculinity, but often let boys be boys while also kissing boys. And actors embracing their femme sides helps me feel more masculine when I lean in to my femme side.

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As for Asian MLM romances compared to Western MLM romances, obviously this is not a cut and dry thing, not all Asian BLs are going to be better than Western BLs but I find I have a tendency to enjoy Asian BLs/queer media more for a few reasons, generally in order of most to least important for me:

Reason One- Family

This may seem somewhat surprising because the first, and honestly biggest reason I tend to like Asian BLs more than Western BLs has much less to do with the queer aspect. It's actually the family dynamics. I think Western media very frequently has a tendency to be very binary in their portrayal of family dynamics, if family is at all included in Western narratives the relationships that characters have to their family is either almost wholly good, or almost wholly bad. You either have a very abusive household that a character is trying to avoid or flee, or you have a traditional, happy, nuclear family, and when characters have a strained relationship to their family, I have noticed a lot more narrative support for leaving that family behind. But for the most part, family does not play a huge role in most Western shows (and, wild concept to me, it’s part of why I think shows like Succession are so successful, because that is all about complex, fucked up, and loving relationships within a family).

Whereas, in Asian media, far more frequently family and family dynamics play a huge role in the character’s lives, behaviors, and can influence the story. And because filial piety is such an important aspect to many Asian cultures, you get a lot more interesting parent/child relationships out of Asian media than you do with Western content. And I am a white Westerner, but I am fundamentally, culturally a Southerner and despite no longer being a woman, I will never shed the mantle of Eldest Daughter. And that has resulted in a sense of family responsibility and piety that ends up making it very very easy for me to understand the motivations of the characters that remain loyal to their family even when their family is asking for things from them that run counter to their own desires or happiness (I’ve actually had this conversation a lot with @waitmyturtles about the intersections of Southern culture and Asian culture).

And similarly, I find that a lot of Western media with queer characters at least in the time frame that I have been able to find content with queer characters is either wholly homophobic, or wholly accepting. And do not get me wrong, we get family dynamics like that in Asian BLs too, but we also get parents who are upset about their child’s queerness, and will voice that, and yet who still take care of their children. I’m thinking of the film I watched just the other day called Margarita with a Straw where the main character’s mother can barely look or talk to her daughter when she comes out, but because she is disabled, her mother is still there preparing food for her, bathing her, etc. because even if she is upset about her child’s queerness she can’t stop taking care of her. And those aren’t dynamics I often see in Western media.

I don’t see relationships like Sawismol and Wang in Western media, where a mother can look at her child and say, out loud that she is disappointed, and to be upset, and to still, despite everything, be the person that her son goes to for comfort when he is absolutely devastated, and I don’t see Western parents sitting there and performing that comfort even when they are disappointed in their children’s queerness.

TL;DR: Family dynamics feel a lot more built out, realistic, and complex in many Asian BLs/media that I’ve seen, than they do in many Western shows. Until I started watching Asian media, I had not seen the dynamics I have with my mother or my father played out on screen.

Reason Two- Casual Trans Inclusion

And, as a trans person myself, part of what makes Asian BL shows, Thai shows much more specifically, so important, interesting, and influential to me when compared to Western BLs is the casual inclusion of trans people. Like, that is just something Western media is barely ready for. It’s not non-existent. We have and have had shows like The Fosters, Sense8, Pose, The Owl House, and Heartstopper that have some trans rep. But a lot of those shows have a hefty component to them that shows the struggles of being trans.

In The Fosters we have to watch Cole nearly die trying to get his hands on testosterone, in Sense8 we have to watch Nomi be kept as a medical prisoner and stripped of her autonomy and almost lobotomized, in Pose we are constantly exposed to the very real dangers that trans women of color experience including murder, in Heartstopper we are spared from having to witness the transphobia Elle went through, but it is mentioned. I think the only one of these shows that doesn’t have some element of struggle because a character is trans is The Owl House and let us not forget that Raine Whispers goes through fucking hell in that show. And these conversations, and the demonstrations of struggle to just survive and thrive despite that is vitally important in a society that is pushing closer and closer towards genocide against trans people. Stories that show the struggles of trans people exist for the sake of realism but also serve as an attempt to try to garner empathy towards trans people by cisgender viewers.

Thailand does have stories where a trans character experiences transphobia (3 Will Be Free, The Warp Effect, Secret Crush on You), but they also have so many stories where trans people are literally just vibing. Do you know how revolutionary it was for me when I watched KinnPorsche and saw Yok, and she was happy, and beautiful, and fun, and her entire plot centered around her running that bar, flirting with boys, and playing surrogate mother to Porsche? Or just to see trans women existing, who aren’t even central to the plot, but are just there? (Payu’s secretary at the auto shop is a trans woman, Golf Tanwarin was at the inclusive cafe in The Eclipse, Golf Kittipat had an illustrious career as a music producer in My School President). Like that shit is SO important to me, and I never, never see it in Western media.

TL;DR: There are many Thai shows especially where trans people just exist, and they have plots that aren’t always centered around them being trans. Which is revolutionary, coming in as a trans Western viewer where the majority of trans rep in Western shows makes me eventually have to watch trans people suffer.

Reason Three- Passion Projects

The film industry is huge and pervasive in Western culture, and in the US especially, and with that comes big budget projects that stretch out as long as they can squeeze a cent out of a fan base. As a result you get shows that are too long, you get shows that ruin their premise in the last season after five to fifteen years of dragging the shambling corpse of a story along. And again, do not get me wrong, there are plenty plenty of Asian BLs that are cash grabs, that are terrible, where the actors aren’t really in it. But, most BLs in Asia are one season, they get in, they get out, and you forget it if it’s bad, or you hate it forever if it’s objectively bigoted. But the time commitment to terrible pieces is a lot shorter.

That said, when you have a low budget, and a story you want to tell, it makes my love so much more. Because it means the crew, the writers, the director, and often time the actors are there because they want to be there, because they like the story they are telling, because they have a story they want to tell. It’s part of why I love shows like The Eclipse so much, because that show was made with a budget mainly comprised of pocket lint and hope, because Golf Tanwarin had something they wanted to say. Most if not all of Aof Nopparnach’s shows give genuinely, inherently queer stories that speak to queer people. Jojo Tichakorn makes pieces that are so full of queer lenses you could never deny the inherent queerness in his shows, even if the story is primarily focused on a straight person/relationship (Mama Gogo). There are so many shows in the Asian BL world where you can just tell that everyone is having fun. LIsten, Fish Upon the Sky is an extremely problematic show, but for me it felt like everyone had a great time goofing off on that set. You can tell EV-ER-Y-BOD-Y in the cast of Mama Gogo was having the time of their motherfucking lives.

I also think the West is very self-congratulatory and tends to hold themselves as the standard of televisions and acting, when I am over here watching Asian BLs with some of the strongest acting from young people I have ever seen, and having it be written off because its a) low budget b) gay and c) in another language. Like, when I try to get people in to BL I start with shows like KinnPorsche (which I know drives @bnegiyo mad) cause it has a much higher production value than many other Asian BLs without being prestige and therefore can’t radically alter the perception of what BL is (hello ITSAY/IPYTM and 180 Degrees), Thai BLs especially. And I figure that is the only way to show someone the level of absurdity and camp that comes from a lot of BLs, while also maintaining their interest because it has a higher production value, so that if they end up enjoying that they are more willing to watch the low budget shows.

TL;DR: Many Asian BLs are pretty low budget, compared to like any Western show, which I find to mean we have more stories in Asian BL that people actually want to tell. (there are still very many shows that people seem to just kinda show up for, or get bored with partway through [looking at you Tee] but.)

Reason Four- Abundance

There are

Many

Asian

BLs

Here's a fraction of my watch list

I have watched 81 in roughly the last year, and there are so many more on my Plan to Watch list, and there are more coming out all the time. The West has given me like…two, maybe three. And when we do get good queer shows in the West, they are frequently canceled before completion. Especially if they are on Netflix.

We lost Sense8, fans had to fight for Out Flag Means Death to get renewed, The Owl House got cancelled by Disney after giving their main character a girlfriend, ND Stevenson had to write two ending to She-Ra and fought tooth and fucking nail to get the gay one, Legend of Korra had to save the gay kiss until the end just like She-Ra had to. If you want to get depressed here is a link to an article ‘50 TV shows with Lesbian, Bisexual, and Queer characters cancelled after one season’. Because most Asian BLs are meant to be only one season, we actually get complete stories, rather than ending with unresolved tension, or cliffhangers.

TL;DR: there is a metric fuck ton of Asian BLs

Reason Five- Sex

The West, especially the US, tends to have a very puritanical view of sex (which makes sense because the Puritans were some of the first colonizers…I mean colonials…to murder everyone and occupy…uh, I mean settle the United States (I would also like to place blame on the Italians and Spanish [hey Columbus] and their Catholicism AND PROTESTANT CALVINISM that also influenced the pervasive societal views of sex and especially gay sex in the United States).

With ever increasing homophobia and transphobia, so many shows are trying, in my own personal opinion, to garner empathy, sympathy, and acceptance for queer characters by cisgender and/or heterosexual viewers by making their queer characters flat, two-dimensional, virginal, perfect people. But homophobes and transphobes consider holding hands to be just as grotesque and inappropriate as full on porn. With Western, and especially US based, views of sex, many queer characters are sanitized, sex scenes are rare, and if they do exist at all they are usually in shows that have mature ratings.

That is not the case with Asian BLs. Like, do not get me wrong, there are plenty of pure, virginal, don’t kiss, barely touch BLs out there, but because there are so many BLs, there are also plenty of shows with lots of physical intimacy and multiple make out scenes that aren’t maturely rated, as well as plenty of maturely rated shows that have multiple sex scenes AND CAN INCLUDE KINK WHICH LIKE!!!!! I rarely see in the Western media I’ve watched. Hell, Sense8 is a sexual liberation show that includes multiple orgies, but there is not even a hint of any other kink (besides whatever Dani, Lito, and Hernando have going on).

gif by @radishayuan

Meanwhile, The Warp Effect has fucking puppy play, Bed Friend has pet play, Laws of Attraction which has a couple pretty chaste kisses shows handcuffs to at least imply kink, there’s a ball gag and a fucking leash in Big Dragon, I haven’t seen it but Unforgotten Night has a lot of BDSM themes in it, Rain and Payu have a dom/sub dynamic going on, we have daddy kinks abound, I also haven’t seen this one but I know there is some belt bondage in War of Y. And even if it isn’t shown, kink and bondage specifically are often referenced in passing in shows with sex.

Also, there are very very very few Western shows I have seen that treat sex workers kindly, and Jojo Tichakorn is right there giving us sex workers as main characters multiple times in a row. Taiwan has great physical chemistry, the very few things I have seen from the Phillipines are so fucking queer, Japan even when they aren’t including sex at all have some extremely queer narratives, and when they are including sex? Holy fuck. South Korea is developing, but I have liked what I’ve seen so far, and it’s been fun seeing very rapid progressions in the level of physical intimacy characters are allowed to have, Thailand has been making a name for itself.

TL;DR: There is a very broad range of physical intimacy in Asian BLs from no sex to lots of sex, but the abundance of content means I am seeing more shows with gay sex in them in like…a month or two, than shows I have seen in the West with gay characters at all in like…the past year. (This is of course, subjective, don’t ask me for real numbers).

And, you know, in case this response wasn’t long enough, the amount of queer content, the types of stories being told, the rapid and continued development of BL is super interesting to observe in its own right. Sure, it may be driven by marketability and sales, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t some truly important, realistic, vital, and beautiful pieces of queer media being created and shared with the world, a lot of which is much more accessible to audiences than Western media. I go heavy on the Thai shows in part because they are available for free on YouTube.

I also think the West seems to think that having gay marriage is the be all, end all of queer inclusivity, and that they do not realize that countries without gay marriage are creating some of the most realistic queer content out there right now. The West has a lot it can learn from Asian BLs, but in my opinion, we’ve got our heads too far up our asses to be following their lead.

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st5lker · 11 months

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one thing i dont see talked about very often is the casual transmisogyny specific to nonbinary transfems especially those of us who have any kind of masculine presentation/pronouns. like as a bigender person i consider myself both a trans woman and a gay man at the same time in different parts and everyone just kind of sees that and goes "oh so youre not an actual trans woman so being transmisogynistic doesnt matter". and believe me i dont consider myself having it "worse" like im far safer irl than most binary post-transition transfems since i present masculinely irl and I constantly recognize that but when it comes to casual transmisogyny people are transmisogynistic in a very insidious way when youre nonbinary.

like people who would normally be really careful about checking themselves for transmisogyny just throw everything out the window when they realize youre nonbinary. you tell them you consider yourself a woman and a man at the same time, or anything in between, or have any kind of attachment to masculinity, and they immediately mentally categorize you as a man. it doesnt matter how you present, what you say, whether it's online or offline---if you're amab and don't fit the bill of being "woman enough" people online will go "thats a man" end of sentence.

the most painful part is that it comes from everybody. it comes from the cis lesbians that called that amab nonbinary person on tiktok a rapist for saying they liked when bi women primarily attracted to women were into them. it comes from the "femboy" obsessed tme transmascs and nbs who don't take your concerns about their transmisogyny seriously. and rarely, but most hurtfully, it comes from other trans women. anyone else remember when lesbianchemicalplant endlessly harassed a trans girl on here for daring to call her attraction to men gay? I do. I do because I saw it at a vulnerable time in my development and it made me repress myself for years because I thought being gay for men and a trans women were the most mutually exclusive things in the world and daring to say you can connect to both of those will get you labeled a Fake Transfem that's doing it for clout. i STILL get a feeling in the back of my mind that whenever i mention being a transfem after talking abt being a gay man people will be like "dont be ridiculous you're not REALLY transfem".

this of course comes from the fact that trans women are held to an impossibly high standards of femininity. you have to be a Capital W Woman to be taken seriously. meaning, of course, that you have to have long hair and thin shoulders and wear dresses and be skinny and short and attractive and usually white (unless they have a fetish for black women, then you can be black IF you hit the rest of those criteria). no matter what you can't be anything CLOSE to a man. make sure you take hrt and get The Surgery too and throw in some breast implants while you're at it.

if you're not rejecting every single part of you that could at all be associated with masculinity you're not even trying, you're just a man, you're just like all other men, and they don't have to care what you say about how you're treated. that type of transmisogyny is so deeply ingrained in literally everyone and its so depressing. it comes back to haunt ALL transfems but the way nonbinary transfems are treated is a perfect example of it.

#trans lesbians are another great example of this. don't even fucking dare consider being a butch lesbian if you're not cis #bc then youre basically just a cishet man right? in everyone elses eyes you are.#this is ok to rb btw

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albertserra · 2 years

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my trans/faggot reading list

The Queer Art of Failure by Jack Halbertsam

Stone Butch Blues by Leslie Feinberg

Going Stealth: Transgender Politics and U.S. Surveillance Practices by Toby Beauchamp

Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity by Julia Serano

gay masculinities by peter nardi

Homosexuality in Cold War America : Resistance and the Crisis of Masculinity by Robert J Corber

Out of the Shadows: Reimagining Gay Men's Lives by Walt Odets

nevada by imogen binnie

gender nihilism by alyson escalante + addendum

Trans-in-Asia, Asia-in-Trans: An Introduction

Trans Exploits: Trans of Color Cultures and Technologies in Movement by Jian Neo Chen

The Terrible We: Thinking with Trans Maladjustment by Cameron Awkward-Rich

Nonbinary: Memoirs of Gender and Identity (various)

Acceptable femininity? Gay male misogyny and the policing of queer femininities Sadie E Hale and Tomás Ojeda

Please Miss: A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Penis by grace e lavery

delusions of gender by cordelia fine

a failed man by michael v smith (part of persistence: all ways butch and femme)

time is the thing a body moves through by T. Fleischmann

kai cheng thom’s writing

we want it all: an anthology of trans radical poetics

second skins: the body narratives of transsexuality by jay prossner

transgender warriors by leslie feinberg

the faggots and their friends between revolutions by larry mitchell

translating the queer: body politics and transnational conversations by hector dominguez ruvalcaba

captive genders: trans embodiment and the prison industrial complex

we both laughed in pleasure: the selected diaries of lou sullivan

how we get free: black feminism and the combahee river collective

trans girl suicide museum by hannah baer

dagger: on butch women by lily burana

black queer studies: a critical anthology by e patrick johnson and mae g Henderson

queer sex by juno roche

black on both sides: a racial history of trans identities by C. Riley Snorton

transgender liberation by leslie feinberg

female masculinity by jack halberstam

transecology by douglas a vakoch

street transvestite action revolutionaries : survival, revolt, and queer antagonistic struggle (Sylvia Rivera , Marsha P. Johnson)

a body that is ultra body: in conversation with fred moten and elysia crampton

building an abolitionist trans and queer movement with everything we’ve got (morgan bassichis, alexander lee and dean spade, 2011)

feminism and the (trans)gender entrapment of gender nonconforming prisoners (julia oparah, 2012)

normal life: administrative violence, critical trans politics, and the limits of law (dean spade, 2015)

Tseng Kwong Chi: Performing for the Camera by Việt Lê

detransition, baby by torrey peters

paul takes the form of a mortal girl by andrea lawlor

a failed man by michael v. smith (part of persistence: all ways butch and femme)

my new vagina wont make me happy by andrea long chu

sexing the body by Anne Fausto-Sterling

something that may shock and discredit you by danny lavery

the argonauts by maggie nelson

gender outlaws by kate bornstein

special mentions for articles ive read that were already very formative for me

Masquerading As the American Male in the Fifties: Picnic, William Holden and the Spectacle of Masculinity in Hollywood Film by Steven Cohan

The Production and Display of the Closet: Making Minnelli's "Tea and Sympathy” by David Gerstner

huge thanks to @mypocketsnug who sent #20-40

this is not at all intended to be some kind of definitive resource as ive literally read none of these yet save for the two i mention at the bottom and im compiling this for my personal use, im only publishing this bc an anon asked me to! feel free to reblog and also recommend me more but keep this disclaimer in mind

#reading list

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palant1r · 6 months

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for ship opinion: royai👀

godddd royai is SO fucking good. royai is laced with the kind of crack that is usually only present in unintentional queerbait. they have the kind of dynamic that every other anime gives to two men who are Just Supposed to be Besties.

i think that fullmetal alchemist is a great case study for how gay shipping in various fandoms, anime in particular, is often kickstarted by a very particular type of canon homoeroticism resulting from misogyny, and fmab serves as a counterexample. it shows that, actually, people WILL go apeshit for straight ships, provided that the author gives the women in their story enough depth and agency that they're allowed to build compelling and tense relationships with the men around them. the push and pull between roy and riza is so good — the way they know each other so well, but call each other only by their titles. the way they give each other everything yet have this barrier between them that neither allows themselves to cross. the way that, when riza catches envy in the guise of roy, it turns their very pretended formality into a show of intimacy. the way that they love each other enough to sacrifice each other, because their love is selfless, and they'll carry on each other's wishes no matter how much they want the other alive. the BATTLE COUPLE of it all. do NOT separate them.

my main thing with royai, though, is that despite it all, i don't really...ship it? in the sense that i don't create transformative work or Blorbo Imaginings of them romantically involved. simply because i think the ambiguity and platonicness of their canon dynamic is the most compelling possible version of their relationship. so yeah, im not really a royai shipper, if anything i'd only really write them as a qpr, but rest assured that whenever i see some good Royai Content i am clapping and cheering throwing flower bouquets in the air etc etc

#ship opinion game #royai #fma #fmab

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p1nball-c0la · 1 year

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i saw your post about the essay you wrote on the gayness in great gatsby, and im doing a similar thing. im wondering what parts you quoted because to me it’s more the vibe rather than any piece of text. thanks!

Happy to provide! I'm trying to not miss anything here, so my apologies for the ultra-long post. And trust me, this is a very long post. I went through all 137 pages. This is likely far more than you wanted or needed, so. Whoops on that front. But I digress. Without much further ado, textual evidence of The Great Gatsby's (mostly Nick's) queerness and where to find said evidence within the book!

The PDF I'm using, found through a single google search. The wonders of a lack of copyright!

Chapter 1

Nick, immediately asserting his Gatsby bias; "Only Gatsby, the man who gives his name to this book, was exempt from my reaction—Gatsby, who represented everything for which I have an unaffected scorn." (5).

When describing Gatsby; “If personality is an unbroken series of successful gestures, then there was something gorgeous about him.” (5).

Nick eyeing up Tom and also being a little afraid of him; "Now he was a sturdy straw-haired man of thirty with a rather hard mouth and a supercilious manner. Two shining arrogant eyes had established dominance over his face and gave him the appearance of always leaning aggressively forward. Not even the effeminate swank of his riding clothes could hide the enormous power of that body — he seemed to fill those glistening boots until he strained the top lacing, and you could see a great pack of muscle shifting when his shoulder moved under his thin coat. It was a body capable of enormous leverage — a cruel body" and "His speaking voice, a gruff husky tenor..." (8).

Nick finding Jordan Baker, the most androgynous woman around, attractive (Which, while not inherently queer, as a mostly gay man I've found that masculine women and feminine men tend to be a hit with queer folks. Do with that what you will); "I enjoyed looking at her. She was a slender, smallbreasted girl, with an erect carriage, which she accentuated by throwing her body backward at the shoulders like a young cadet." (11).

Chapter 2

Nick being kinda grossed out by Catharine; "The sister, Catherine, was a slender, worldly girl of about thirty, with a solid, sticky bob of red hair, and a complexion powdered milky white. Her eye-brows had been plucked and then drawn on again at a more rakish angle, but the efforts of nature toward the restoration of the old alignment gave a blurred air to her face." (25).

Nick's opinions on the McKee's (Take note of Mr. McKee's description-describing a man as "feminine" pretty much meant nothing but gay when Fitzgerald wrote it. Trust me, he would have known the connotations); "Mr. McKee was a pale, feminine man... there was a white spot of lather on his cheekbone, and he was most respectful in his greeting... His wife was shrill, languid, handsome, and horrible." (25).

Nick doing something that could be described as tender; "Mr. McKee was asleep on a chair with his fists clenched in his lap, like a photograph of a man of action. Taking out my handkerchief I wiped from his cheek the remains of the spot of dried lather that had worried me all the afternoon." (30).

I implore you, read the final few paragraphs of chapter two. Nick 100% sleeps with Mr. McKee. A taste of that; "… I was standing beside his bed and [Mr. McKee] was sitting up between the sheets, clad in his underwear, with a great portfolio in his hands." (31).

Chapter 3

Nick, upon receiving an invitation to Gatsby's party (The 2013 movie had Tobey Maguire stress that 'No one had ever been invited to Gatsby's' with the exception of him. Do with that what you will); "I had been actually invited. A chauffeur in a uniform of robin’s-egg blue crossed my lawn early that Saturday morning with a surprisingly formal note from his employer: the honor would be entirely Gatsby’s, it said, if I would attend his “little party.” that night. He had seen me several times, and had intended to call on me long before, but a peculiar combination of circumstances had prevented it — signed Jay Gatsby, in a majestic hand." (33-34).

A quick aside about the party and Gatsby symbolism; as my English teacher so fervently pointed out, Daisy wears white to symbolize purity/innocence/some other million dollar word. If we are to believe that Fitzgerald painstakingly planned out that symbolism, then this line about Nick's party attire, "[I was] dressed up in white flannels" (34) should have some significance to it, right?

Nick, unaware he is talking to Gatsby, immediately feels better upon talking to him; "It was on the tip of my tongue to ask his name when Jordan looked around and smiled. 'Having a gay time now?' she inquired. 'Much better.'" (38).

And of course, this gem—Nick, instantly smitten by Gatsby's smile; "He smiled understandingly — much more than understandingly. It was one of those rare smiles with a quality of eternal reassurance in it, that you may come across four or five times in life. It faced― or seemed to face― the whole external world for an instant and then concentrated on you with an irresistible prejudice in your favor. It understood you just so far as you wanted to be understood, believed in you as you would like to believe in yourself and assured you that it had precisely the impression of you that, at your best, you hoped to convey." (39).

Nick being anxious and a little fixated on a shoulder touch from Gatsby, Gatsby practically planning a date out; "Rather ashamed that on my first appearance I had stayed so late, I joined the last of Gatsby’s guests, who were clustered around him. I wanted to explain that I’d hunted for him early in the evening and to apologize for not having known him in the garden. 'Don’t mention it,' he enjoined me eagerly. 'Don’t give it another thought, old sport.' The familiar expression held no more familiarity than the hand which reassuringly brushed my shoulder. 'And don’t forget we’re going up in the hydroplane to-morrow morning, at nine o’clock.'"

Nick, about Jordan, then very quickly saying something that very much sounds like the closeted experience when you're in an unaccepting environment; "I thought I loved her. But I am slow-thinking and full of interior rules that act as brakes on my desires..." (47).

Chapter 4

Gatsby, picking up Nick for what I will only call a 'Discreet meeting between two close male friends'; "Good morning, old sport. You’re having lunch with me today and I thought we’d ride up together." (50).

Nick, paying a strange amount of attention to Gatsby's stance, and describing it so... yeah; "He was balancing himself on the dashboard of his car with that resourcefulness of movement that is so peculiarly American — that comes, I suppose, with the absence of lifting work or rigid sitting in youth and, even more, with the formless grace of our nervous, sporadic games." (50).

Another interlude; According to my literal teachers, Gatsby's car is supposed to be a euphemism for his penis. I'd censor this, but hey, this book is about affairs. Anyways, this fact makes this sequence very funny to me; "He saw me looking with admiration at his car. 'It’s pretty, isn’t it, old sport?' He jumped off to give me a better view. 'Haven’t you ever seen it before?' I’d seen it. Everybody had seen it. It was a rich cream color, bright with nickel, swollen here and there in its monstrous length with triumphant hat-boxes and supper-boxes and toolboxes, and terraced with a labyrinth of wind-shields that mirrored a dozen suns." (50).

Nick, falling in love with the way Gatsby speaks; "Little Montenegro! He lifted up the words and nodded at them — with his smile. The smile comprehended Montenegro’s troubled history and sympathized with the brave struggles of the Montenegrin people. It appreciated fully the chain of national circumstances which had elicited this tribute from Montenegro’s warm little heart. My incredulity was submerged in fascination now; it was like skimming hastily through a dozen magazines." (52).

Nick being not okay with Gatsby being not straightforward with him; "'Look here, old sport,' said Gatsby, leaning toward me, 'I’m afraid I made you a little angry this morning in the car.' There was the smile again, but this time I held out against it." (56).

Wolfsheim talking up Gatsby to Nick; "'Fine fellow, isn’t he? Handsome to look at and a perfect gentleman.' 'Yes.'" (56).

Nick literally settling for Jordan—Note how Nick describes Jordan as 'wan'. Jordan is, almost exclusively, the only one described as wan. Remember this. Anyways, Nick settling; "Unlike Gatsby and Tom Buchanan, I had no girl whose disembodied face floated along the dark cornices and blinding signs, and so I drew up the girl beside me, tightening my arms. Her wan, scornful mouth smiled, and so I drew her up again closer, this time to my face." (62).

Chapter 5

Gatsby inviting Nick to Coney Island way too late at night; "'...Let’s go to Coney Island, old sport. In my car.'" (63).

Wow Nick. Interesting way to describe Gatsby. That's. That doesn't seem fond no not at all. No but why does 'glaring tragically' sound. Yeah; "Gatsby, pale as death, with his hands plunged like weights in his coat pockets, was standing in a puddle of water glaring tragically into my eyes." (66).

Nick describing Gatsby; "He literally glowed; without a word or a gesture of exultation a new well-being radiated from him and filled the little room." (69).

OH COOL GATSBY YEAH JUST INVITE YOUR ROMANTIC INTREST AND YOUR 'VERY GOOD CLOSE MALE FRIEND' OVER TO SEE YOUR HOUSE YEAH; "'I want you and Daisy to come over to my house,' he said, 'I’d like to show her around.' 'You’re sure you want me to come?' 'Absolutely, old sport.'" (69).

Gatsby searching for approval from Nick; "'My house looks well, doesn’t it?” he demanded. “See how the whole front of it catches the light.' I agreed that it was splendid." (69-70).

Gatsby saying he keeps his house 'full of interesting people' (however, Gatsby has only invited Nick, honestly); "'I keep it always full of interesting people, night and day. People who do interesting things. Celebrated people.'" (70).

Nick, very sure Daisy couldn't possibly be right for Gatsby anymore; "There must have been moments even that afternoon when Daisy tumbled short of his dreams — not through her own fault, but because of the colossal vitality of his illusion." (74).

Chapter 6

Nick tells us of Gatsby's truth, of the name James Gatz. Note that Nick is the one person Gatsby trusts with this. This quote us of little importance aside from me telling you the fact only Nick knows of his past; "He was a son of God — a phrase which, if it means anything, means just that — and he must be about His Father’s business, the service of a vast, vulgar, and meretricious beauty. So he invented just the sort of Jay Gatsby that a seventeen-year-old boy would be likely to invent, and to this conception he was faithful to the end."

Nick once again fixated on Gatsby's smile; "I suppose he smiled at Cody — he had probably discovered that people liked him when he smiled." (77).

This isn't important this is just funny to me; "...in the course of gay parties..." (77).

Nick once again not being that into the women around him; "The girl addressed was trying, unsuccessfully, to slump against my shoulder."

Nick immediatly defending Gatsby from Tom's accusations; "'I didn’t hear it. I imagined it. A lot of these newly rich people are just big bootleggers, you know.' 'Not Gatsby,' I said shortly."

Nick really hating that Gatsby won't give up Daisy and wishing that somebody could just replace her in his mind; "Perhaps some unbelievable guest would arrive, a person infinitely rare and to be marvelled at, some authentically radiant young girl who with one fresh glance at Gatsby, one moment of magical encounter, would blot out those five years of unwavering devotion."

Nick staying late because Gatsby asked him to; "I stayed late that night, Gatsby asked me to wait until he was free, and I lingered in the garden..." (84).

Nick trying to hint that Gatsby should start looking into new people for romance. Perhaps someone in the present. Y'know. Like a writer. Just shy of thirty. With the initials N.C. Y'know. Here's the quote; "'I wouldn’t ask too much of her,' I ventured. 'You can’t repeat the past.'"

Nick wanting to say something to Gatsby; "For a moment a phrase tried to take shape in my mouth and my lips parted like a dumb man’s, as though there was more struggling upon them than a wisp of startled air. But they made no sound, and what I had almost remembered was uncommunicable forever." (86).

Chapter 7

Nick really liking Gatsby; "I wanted to get up and slap him on the back. I had one of those renewals of complete faith in him that I’d experienced before." (99).

Nick, concerned about losing 'men to know'. He doesn't mention women; "Thirty — the promise of a decade of loneliness, a thinning list of single men to know..." (104).

Nick, lying; "I disliked him so much by this time..." (110).

Chapter 8

Intriguing of you to say 'come home' and not 'go home', Nick; "I hesitated. 'You’d better come home and

get some sleep.'" (112).

Nick embodying every lovesick gay; "I couldn’t sleep all night... Toward dawn I heard a taxi go up Gatsby’s drive, and immediately I jumped out of bed and began to dress — I felt that I had something to tell him, something to warn him about, and morning would be too late." (113).

Hey remember how I said Nick pretty much only describes Jordan as wan? Yeah here's Nick describing Gatsby that way; "'Nothing happened,' he said wanly." (113).

Nick essentially being annoyed that Gatsby doesn't want to romance him now; "I think that he would have acknowledged anything now, without reserve, but he wanted to talk about Daisy." (114).

Nick not leaving Gatsby; "I didn’t want to go to the city. I wasn’t worth a decent stroke of work, but it was more than that — I didn’t want to leave Gatsby. I missed that train, and then another, before I could get myself away." (118).

Parallel between Nick and Daisy; "'I’ll call you about noon.' We walked slowly down the steps. 'I suppose Daisy’ll call too.'"

Nick's complement to Gatsby; "'They’re a rotten crowd,' I shouted across the lawn. 'You’re worth the whole damn bunch put together.'" (118).

Nick lying. You don't dedicate a book to a guy entitled 'The Great' with his name and 'disapprove of him'; "It was the only compliment I ever gave him, because I disapproved of him from beginning to end." (118).

The smile, again; "First he nodded politely, and then his face broke into that radiant and understanding smile, as if we’d been in ecstatic cahoots on that fact all the time." (118).

Nick again being a concerned lovesick gay; "I called Gatsby’s house... I tried four times..." (119).

Sounds rather wishful, Nick; "I have an idea that Gatsby himself didn’t believe [the call] would come, and perhaps he no longer cared."

Chapter 9

Nick being basically haunted; "...his protest continued in my brain: 'Look here, old sport, you’ve got to get somebody for me. You’ve got to try hard. I can’t go through this alone.'" (126).

Nick upset at everyone who isn't Gatsby; "I began to have a feeling of defiance, of scornful solidarity between Gatsby and me against them all."(127).

Nick describing himself as a close friend of Gatsby to Gatsby's father; "'...Were you a friend of my boy’s, Mr.—?' 'We were close friends.'" (128).

Tom Buchanan being cruel as usual, drawing a direct parallel; "...He threw dust into your eyes just like he did in Daisy’s..." (136).

And that's it! All possibly queer quotes from Gatsby. Again, I apologize for the length.

#the gay gatsby #the great gatsby #great gatsby #gatsby #natsby #nick carraway #jay gatsby #jordan baker #gay #queer

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player1064 · 2 months

Note

Hi! All such great carraville drabbles so far! If you’re still doing them, may I request them coming out publicly and the various reactions of news broadcasters, other ex/current footballers and of course, the internet. Thanks!

aaa thank you!!! and yessss I love fics where it's public reaction to stuff and i LOVE multi-media type fics so this was fun to write (even though i am much too lazy to come up with fake twitter usernames)

---

Group: MU mob

Phillip: forwarded an instagram post by gneville2 Phillip: ???

Gary: what Gary: do u think I was too nice to him in the caption Gary: I can edit it to add something about scousers maybe Gary: or how he never won the league

Phillip: you and Carragher???

Gary: ?

Paul: whyd u make me look at that rot first thing in the morning Paul: put me off my breakfast that did

Ryan: im not installing instagram for this whats he done now

Nicky: ^

Phillip: he’s dating Carragher?????

Ryan: where have u been for the last 2 years its literally all he talks about

Phillip: America! I have been! In! America! Phillip: Gaz I can’t believe you told them and not me?

Paul: I wish he hadnt told us to be fair Paul: they r so annoying

Gary: sorry phil I mustve forgot Gary: timezones etc Gary: gtg we’re having breakfast before he has to head to studio 🥞😍

David: nice post Gary 😊🏳️‍🌈 Happy for you x

Chat: Stevie G

Missed call from Stevie

Stevie: Carra

Missed call from Stevie

Stevie: Jamie Lee Duncan Carragher Stevie: pick up your damn phone Stevie: you are shit at this best friend thing yknow Stevie: also Gary Neville??? Stevie: you were moaning about him when I called you just last week Stevie: but if he makes you happy that’s alright then Stevie: tell him he’s buying me a pint next time I’m home Stevie: in liverpool mind Stevie: don’t care if you love him you won’t see me in pub in manchester

The Daily Mail

LIVERPOOL AND MAN UTD LEGENDS JAMIE CARRAGHER AND GARY NEVILLE REVEAL GAY RELATIONSHIP?

Former rivals turned co-pundits posted Valentine’s day messages on their Instagram accounts which appear to show an intimate relationship between the two men, who were both married to women for over ten years. Neither has responded for comment.

Comments:

> they’re the worst pundits on sky anyway they don’t even try to hide the bias for their teams

> gary neville’s always trying to bring politics into everything rishi was right he should stick to football!

> well I will be getting my commentary from MOTD moving forward. wish I could cancel sky sports but can’t afford to miss all the match coverage so they will be getting a strongly worded letter from me instead.

The Guardian

OPINION: IT’S 2024. WHY HAS THE FOOTBALL WORLD NOT CAUGHT UP?

There are still no openly gay players in the top tier of the men’s game. Now that two retired premier league footballers have come out, we have to ask: why is this headline news?

Both Liverpool and Manchester United football clubs have posted messages in support of Neville & Carragher, and so have many current and former players. But it begs the question why they thought that support might not be implicit, or why the two pundits had to publicly “come out” at all.

Comments:

> tbh I didn’t even know who they were until I saw Beckham’s ig story 💀

> surprised Gerrard’s not said anything, thought he and Carragher were mates >>> probably can’t if he wants to keep his manager contract $$$

> the guardian: why is the media making a fuss about two ex-footballers coming out? the guardian: is part of the media making a fuss about two ex-footballers coming out…

Twitter

Sports - Trending Gary Neville 264k tweets

Jamie Carragher 151k tweets

@.1111 they’ve been obsessed with each other for years is anyone really surprised

@.222 ngl I thought Gary Neville was already out as gay? You’re telling me people have believed he’s straight this whole time??

@.333 it’s giving slow burn enemies to lovers 150k words…

@.444 sky already wheels the two of them out together whenever they need to promote ANYTHING I bet it’s gonna get 10x worse now

Chat: J ❤️

G 👹👸: good luck on show tonight G 👹👸: no vday dinner :( G 👹👸: I shall have to waste away and pine instead G 👹👸: drown my sorrows etc

J ❤️: should be back to hotel by 1 at the latest J ❤️: I know that’s past ur bedtime old man so don’t wait up

G 👹👸: I will be up (😉😉) and ready to give you your dessert 😘 G 👹👸: might have a cheeky nap before though to be fair

#sorry to stevie g for being slightly mean to him in this but well. i dont approve of his recent career choices <3 #thanks for the prompt!!! i really really enjoyed writing all the text messages daskjsghfdg #carraville #drabbles #place ur bets now did gary successfully wake from his nap on time to greet jamie or did he fall asleep immediately

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olderthannetfic · 8 months

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https://www.tumblr.com/olderthannetfic/728489573268750336/im-really-not-fond-of-baby-gays-trying-to-make?source=share

This got me thinking about the way gender, and especially manhood, is constructed and defined and how it sucks for both cis and trans people.

If a man puts on a frilly dress, he is thought of as not actually a man, in queer circles, homophobic circles, and everything in between.

If a cis man wears a dress, he's thought of as a trans woman, and if that's used as an insult or said supportively depends on the context, but he's always thought of as not a man.

If a trans man wears a dress, he'll get some people saying he's acutally nonbinary and some saying it's proof he was a woman all along, and, again, wearing a dress erasing his manhood.

GNC is a useful term because it acknowledges that people behave outside the expectations of their gender, without contradicting what their gender actually is. A GNC man is a man, not a woman or a nonbinary person, who doesn't dress or act the way people expect men to.

(I'm sure this happens for women, too, but the expectations and the level of acceptance for crossdressing are different for women and I don't have a good window into the finer details myself)

In my experience, a lot of women who self-describe as GNC are either living in places with much more aggressive Thou Shalt Wear A Full Face Of Makeup To The Supermarket At Ten A.M. cultures than I am or they're just too autistic to perform Girl™ correctly even when they try.

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cam-ulu29 · 1 year

Text

the problem in the majority of destiel conversations is the weaponization of lgbtqia. It’s a well-known fact (I thought) that the majority of shippers for any given m/m ship are straight women. Destiel isn’t about queer representation. I cried when I realized that Castiel’s so well written asexuality was destroyed to make room for another fetish ship. It was so well written…his reaction to having sex for the first time…his interactions with Meg where he tries to copy what he saw in the porno…his confusion when Hannah took off her clothes in front of him…that was queer representation. That was beautiful, multi-layered, accurate asexuality. But because we’re in a culture obsessed with sex, no, he had to want to get in on with another man, because that’s what everyone wants to see. Straight women push these ships. They created Omegaverse BECAUSE IT RELIES ON THE FEMINIZATION OF MEN TO RATIONALIZE THE ATTRACTION BETWEEN THEM. DO YOU NOT SEE HOW INVALIDATING THAT IS TO LEGITIMATE GAY RELATIONSHIPS. im sorry I have strong feelings about omegaverse.

Pushing Destiel by claiming representation is a horrible thing to do if you’re truly an ally. It erases already established queer representation for the most popular thing in all of lgbtqia. It is a creepy fetish being pushed by straight women who want to see two men get it on, just like Stucky or everything else hellers across all fandoms throw fits about while ignoring the characters they should really care about if they truly want to see equality. Stop using lgbtqia and calling people homophobic to push your stupid fetish. It’s not an weapon. And it obviously has nothing to do with chemistry or even romantic subtext, it’s just the safer m/m ship in the fandom, so it’s the one people latched onto.

And if you haven’t seen supernatural, or have only barely seen supernatural, I don’t care if you’re part of the lgbtqia community. Don’t you fucking dare come at me. You have no idea what’s going on.

#jensen ackles #jared padalecki #misha collins #supernatural #anti destiel #anti destihellers #anti cockles #spnfamily #spn fandom #lgbtqia #lgbtq community #asexuality #asexual castiel #anti jared hate #tagging that because a lot of it stems from destiel #dean winchester #sam winchester

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demxnicprxncess · 1 year

Text

GxG Smut "Can't Sleep"

YALL IM FEELING OVERLY CONFIDENT IN MY SEXUALITY RN AND ITS 1 AM I HAVE SCHOOL TMR BUT I HAD THIS SCENARIO PICTURE WHOEVER TF YOU WANT, I managed to imagine both Sarah Paulson and Lady Gaga during different moments. (Don't ask.)

Taglist: @kitwalkersgfff, @ppawmpkin, @yes-divine-ruler, @quicksilversg1rl, @charsdunkie, @eddiemunsonsbitch69, @dahmevan, @sultrysullen dm me to be added or removed dears. (idk if you guys wanna be tagged for my wlw stories sorry js lmk!)

CW: WLW cs im gay, cursing cs im popeye the sailor, overly detailed because im hyper, scissoring and tribbing, dirty talk, titty worship cs its women, no men, purely porn with no plot, MAKING LOVE, ITS SEX!

Rolling around against the soft sheets that wrapped around my half nude body as I practically whimpered at the things my girlfriend did to me in my dream, only to be woken up by my actual girlfriend. "Baby, are you okay? You're all sweaty and whiney..." I looked at her squinting to read her expression in the dark room, before leaning over to cut the light on. "What?" She laughed softy before pulling me into her chest, I felt the side of my sweaty face being pressed against her pillowy boobs, I felt like I was in heaven. "What were you dreaming about pretty girl?" I looked up at her and smiled bashfully before pushing her down onto the bed and sitting on top of her each of my thighs on the side of her waist. "Just how good it feels when you eat me out." She looked up at me and smiled before bringing her hands to my thighs and then my waist. "Oh yeah?" I leaned down close to her lips barely letting them touch before mumbling a soft "Yeah." into her lips as I kissed her. I slid my hips down so my pussy was in line with hers. I slid my hand down in between us and slipped it into her panties, tracing figure eights along her clit feeling as her body stutters against mine. "You like that?" I pull back from this kiss still moving my fingers before using my free hand to push her hair out of her face. "Alot." I smiled once more now removing my finger and pulling down her panties and mine. "As much as I'd love to recreate my dream I can't. Cause damn, I really fucking need you." I pushed her legs up to fold her knees in reach with her still covered breast whilst I undid my bra and then laid myself at the perfect angle to where her clit was lined perfectly with mine. I gave a gentle testing grind to make sure that whilst stimulating myself I could stimulate her, her somewhat loud moan being everything I need to tell me that I was doing right. But before I could start, I had to remove her bra, I reveled in the sight of her boobs, bare or not. I placed a hand on her boob before grinding with a bit more force now, the pleasure striking from my core all the way down to the tip of my toes. I sped up the little pushes feeling her body quiver in pleasure undermine while her moans grew in volume and intensity. "Shh baby, we wouldn't want the neighbors to hear now, would we? Let 'em hear how good I fuck you in the middle of the night?" She shook her head no, and I leaned down to kiss her, swallowing every moan she sent my way and pushing my hips against hers even harsher before moving my finger to massage her scalp through her tangled hair that flung around her head and clung to her sweaty face. I pulled back feeling myself getting close knowing she finishes before me she must be holding it, I pushed with more force feeling my arousal pool out and mix with her that had also started pouring out of her hole. "You're so needy for me princess." Her moans got louder, I could feel her body shake as she reached her highly anticipated orgasm following in her footsteps, I reached mine, moaning her name out in pure ecstasy. "I have a feeling we're going to sleep well tonight.

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my-castles-crumbling · 4 days

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hi cas!!

im gonna rant at you for a bit if you dont mind :)

Im a minor that lives in a super tight night, close minded community. Super religious, super homophobic transphobic ect. Seeing as im a teenage girl whose questioning their gender and is definitely attracted to women thats kinda problematic lols. Honestly idek how to explain the situation without a bunch of details, but basically, theres a fifty-fifty chance of me being sent to conversion therapy or just cut off from any internet access (and i mean ANY. i have a flip phone for fucks sake.)if my fam finds out im queer, i have no support system outside of some internet friends who know nothing about my situation, and within the next few years(so like once i turn 20ish, thats in like 4 years but whatever) my family is going to expect me to get married to a man and start popping out babies asap. Btw thats whats expected of me in this community, marriage under the age of 25, have like as many kids as physically possible and god forbid higher education. And im not okay with that . Ffs i want to go to college, major in fine arts, meet a person i like and fall desperately in love or maybe not just have a bunch of close platonic relationships i want cats and a dog and a cute studio in a big city where i can dye my hair whatever color i want aand get an obsene amount of piercings, i want to wear pants!! I just want to live. Without expectations or limits or people who love me hating everything they dont know about me. Is that truly so much to ask for?

And im incredibly dramatic cuz i literally have the dream life. My family loves me, my parents are upper middle class, theyve never hurt me before(besides for all the anti everything rants haha) i literally have a full sized bed, which for some reason i see as the peak of being spoiled idk why. I go to school, not even public, a private religious school that prob costs thousands of dollars, i have friends(who are all part of this community btw and id bet my entire savings that most of them think gay is only a word that ppl use to mean happy lol) close ones even!! I have adorable neices and nephews(my 3 sisters all were married by the age of 20, so i have 11 niecesand nephews while my oldest sister is 31) im living the dream life. But i hate it and i have no way out. No hope of college to get on my feet and find someway out, no people that'll help me fucking run away or some bullshit like that, hell ive considered it and then felt like shit, cuz what am i even running from? Im probably attracted to men it wont kill me to marry one. And i like kids, i wouldnt mind having any either. But.... i dont want to be trapped anymore. Cuz ill be honest thats what i am.if some one asked me to run away with them rn i would, no hesitation.

God im a mess😭😭 anyway this was me ranting in my notes app, im just apologizing for dumping this on a complete stranger(we're moots actually!!) albeit a very kind one :) i dont know what im looking for, but ill take whatever your comfortable giving ig.

I love and appreciate you<333

And hey this has been oddly cathartic so lmk if its okay for me to do this again sometime :))

"im living the dream life. But i hate it and i have no way out."

Hon, you're not living the dream life...there's a difference between financial privilege and being happy, you know? It's pretty clear that this isn't what you want.

I'm not sure if you're asking for my advice here, or if you just want to vent. But I care about you, and if you want me to research some things to try to help you, I'm more than willing to (that way it's not on your search history.) Just say the word!

Until then, you are ALWAYS allowed to vent to me.

I'm naming you venting anon in case you write again!

#ask #asks #ask cas #venting anon

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qqueenofhades · 1 year

Note

hi there! ive always loved your history posts, and was wondering if you had any insights/directions you could point me in to learn more about a specific area of queer history?

im personally most well-read on the history of gay men in britain between the labouchere amendment and ww2, so a pretty specific area. i dont know very much at all about the history of queer women, though id think its harder to get primary sources for them as the legal records wouldnt exist in the same way?

anyway, my main question is actually about cross-gender solidarity. i notice that a lot of the men i read about operated in very gender segregated spaces, which was typical for the era anyway and ofc there are plenty of spaces today where gay men want to be with other gay men exclusively. i suppose im wondering if there's any way of investigating how much queer men in the past would have felt solidarity with queer women, and how to look at whether/how those sentiments changed over time?

i realise this is a bit more of a "how to do history" question than about history proper - any insight or thoughts you'd like to share about this would also be really appreciated! and in either case, hope you're having a great week xx

First, thanks! Glad to help.

Second, the difficulty of doing premodern queer history largely or exclusively from legal documents is that a) it gives us a distorted version of what degree of prejudice actually existed in society, on a practical and not just theoretical level, and b) it makes it even more difficult (if not impossible) to speculate on what people "really" felt, thought, or personally identified. (I currently have a book chapter about John/Eleanor Rykener in the peer-review process, which touches on some of this difficulty, since our only major source in that case is also a legal record.) We are very rarely granted direct access to the actual voices or perspectives of premodern queer people, and if it's filtered through a hostile framework that has an interest in minimizing that person's existence and/or social experience, it provides an even more excessively or solely negative picture than is probably at all the case.

However, I would gently challenge your idea that it's harder to get primary sources on queer women, since the assumption is that premodern queer men are only memorialized by their (presumably punitive) encounters with the legal system, and that society cared less about female homosexuality and thus did not attempt to police it in the same way. Both ideas have some degree of truth, but not entirely and certainly not categorically, and there are many ways to access premodern queer experience and memorialization. I don't know what particular time/region you're interested in, but since you said Britain, I will once more recommend checking out the website of gay British historian Rictor Norton. He has everything, and I mean everything, you could possibly want as a resource/starting point (his specialty is 18th-20th century British LGBT history):

He has a wildly extensive list of links to subject, region, and chronological-specific LGBT history:

He has an equally comprehensive list of links sorted by region, methodology, art/music history, thematic approaches, etc:

Now, obviously I haven't combed through all of these to see if there is something that specifically addresses the question of premodern mlm/wlw solidarity, but since queer spaces have often been a lot more gender-mixed than people tend to think, there are certainly more than enough resources to get you clicking and searching.

#indieninja92 #ask #history #queer history #british history

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yuukei-yikes · 1 year

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What’s your opinion on Harushin (Haruka and Shintaro)? Can be either platonic or romantic

i love that u had to clarify who they are LMAOOO

hmm well i don't like them romantically. when it comes to the yuukei quartet ships I'd put them at the bottom 💔 mostly cuz i just dont ship haruka with anyone other than takane (but for some reason i pass takane around like a blunt) and also it means a lot to me that the reason haruka recognizes he loves takane is bc he defines shintaro as a friend but feels sad putting takane in the same category bc of the different feelings she entails.

and I HAVE THIS PET PEEVE that is a bit silly and nuanced. and it implies a lil bit of jin bashing so TOTAL AND COMPLETE DISCLAIMER i love jin's work and his characters and i immensely respect everything he's done for this franchise he shares with us and clearly loves. that said fuck his misogynistic fucking writing

i could go on and on and on abt that but to answer this ask specifically, i just HATE that shintaro is so nice to haruka and he's just a total ass to ayano and takane for no goddamn reason. takane was SO nice to him at first, could u imagine the good buddies they would've been if shintaro was fucking normal. and shintaro LITERALLY stands in a 2 hour line at the festival just to insult her😭😭😭 he didn't even KNOW her. he's like "u act like this big shot bc all these ppl fawn over you" as if takane hadn't been literally sobbing miserably the whole afternoon precisely bc people were fawning over her and she found it mortifying. bc ofc he didnt know that!! LIKE WHAT WAS THE DAMN REASON HE DID THIS HES CRAZY i will never know what was going thru jin's mind writing that bit but ig all i can do is imagine shintaro was like GIRLS CANT PLAY GAMES *SHAKING* i know im always talking abt shintaro and takane's friendship and how much i love them but god the writing in the hs days is just inexcusable like shintaro is so damn unlikable. i hate when they put him and takane in the same level of irrational arguers bc truly takane is just fucking defending herself. how would u treat a person who didnt even give u a damn chance and just says all that shit to u first meeting. and she's also speaking for ayano too cuz her ass wont defend herself. and also haruka wont say anything. like takanes fighting for her life in here i 10000% support her actions as ene cuz man fuck that guy i find it insane she still cared for him anyway

and it pisses me off that then we see him in novel 6 being totally capable of being a decent fucking person to haruka. like seriously what's his damage. also idk japanese but i THINK shintaro speaks in a polite manner to haruka and not to ayano and takane. obligatory joke im gay not bc i like men but bc i hate women etc etc etc

i could rly go on abt how much it annoys me haruka and shintaro's friendship is super developed opposed to ayano and takane's pathetic dynamic that doesnt pass the already stupid bechdel test (i actually ranted a lil bit abt it on my side twitter a few days ago if you wanna read it LMAO) (it starts as a thread abt harutaka but then i get sidetracked cuz...yeah) BUT THIS IS ABT HARUKA AND SHINTARO SO. yeah u could excuse it with shintaro being the protag and ofc getting a lot more focus on his relationships but still. i kinda resent this aspect of their dynamic so i don't like the ship teehee i just... i think haruka is way too good for him sorry shintaro my man. i say this while shipping shinaya i know but to be fair i make them go through hell in my mind before they can properly be happy together if at all. bc when i start going off abt all this stuff i also start resenting shinaya LMAOOO sometimes i say i like it out of nostalgia but then their whole story together and how theyre literally always destined to find each other (holds head) ok. thats aside the point. i have a complicated relationship to shinaya. it's all abt drawing the line between author and creation and how much u can say augh author is being annoying and augh character is just an ass on purpose. and compared to the pov of all the other kagepro characters, u can indeed see that sexism shit in all of it (i could whip out examples in a second)but on shintaro it is noticeably worse LOL

and again im not blaming fictional characters for author's misogyny, like someone is writing this duuuh which is why haruka never points it out but FROM MY insane perspective i interpret it as haruka recognizing the pattern but he's so damn spineless he can't bring himself to stand up for ayano and takane. he probably makes some comments that shintaro just dimisses and haruka is too nervous to bring them up again *me going off abt the internalized misogyny of fictional characters headcanoned based on the author being misogynistic*

ERM. ANOTHER REMINDER I LOVE KAGEPRO AND I RESPECT JIN FOREVER BC HE IS THE CREATOR OF ALL MY FAVORITE CHARACTERS. but also lol. doesn't mean i cant point out some of this stuff yknooooow

uhhh soooo platonic wise i love them. but its also not my favorite dynamic to explore, id repeat some of the stuff ive already written, it does bother me shintaro is Normal to haruka and not to ayano and takane and haruka acts like nothing. it's just a big thing that annoys me generally abt them lol and i find it tough to separate from author like i normally would with these weird things he includes because this bit is just a whole dynamic you know?? i could.... go on abt this but um. sorry ive been talking for a while. its definitely something im kinda bitter about in the writing.

but still they're definitely sweet, and i understand the appeal completely!!! these are just My thoughts i think its 2023 and i wont get death threats for not liking a ship anymore but also haruka is shintaro's bisexual awakening that is for damn sure. i like entertaining the onesided concept. shintaro being like hahahaha what if we kisssed like ayano and takane apparently did and haruka is like No thanks.

#ask tag #you: what do u think of this ship #me: SHINTARO HATES WOMEN BRO #its funny except when it isnt #i love exploring his dynamics but then i start going abt this and im like fuck the yuukei quartet its a trio now #throw shintaro in a river #sorry. i dont meant that. i love you shintaro.#most of the time at least.#kagenalysis

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jackienautism · 9 months

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Omg thanks for making a post about that disgusting mlm ship (du'lie 🤮) it's so gross I don't get why they don't ship a normal ship like Markate.

Like why do they always have to make try to ship two obviously straight characters together, Charlie and Du'Met aren't gay they are just straight and everyone is acting like they are gay or something. I hate it, mlm ships are so weird they should just ship something canon instead of trying to make everything gay like

Anyways thank you for your post, if they want lgbq+ content they should just ship Jerin or go find something canon I don't get the appeal of liking a mlm ship anyways like 🙄 just ship markate or jerin why would you want a ship with two men if you want one so bad go play the quarry or something lol 🤭

yeah of course! ive already seen my fair share of stuff for that pairing and its fans being annoying so it was bound to happen at some point. i understand what you mean by a "normal" ship, assuming youre referring to the fact that charlie/dumet is a pairing between a serial killer and its victim, but i took it as a .... straight vs gay type thing, w/ the straight being "normal." i hope that isn't what you meant. also the emphasis on the "mlm" part of the pairing just..... doesnt sit right w/ me

i mean... from a lesbian perspective, we've had to LIVE off of pairing up two "obviously straight" characters together in order to get our representation. it's a totally normal phenomenon, especially when the number of canon wlw pairings is very small. so i dont blame anyone, esp men loving men, for searching for 2 "straight" characters to pair together. what IM criticizing is the fact how fandom focuses on mlm pairings, even when theyre toxic or lackluster, before even thinking of considering shipping something between 2 girls, let alone woc. i know im probably repeating myself at this point, but i want to make it clear that i dont have a problem w/ the mlm pairings themselves, its often the people behind those pairings that i have a problem with. ESP if they're like...straight women. so, apologies if it ever made it seem like i was bigoted towards those pairings. because, anon, based on what youre saying to me right now, that seems to be the case. calling all mlm ships "weird" just....isn't right. sticking w/ shipping canon stuff would slash what we engage with in half. i dont know abt you, but ive spent my entire LIFE engaging w/ 2 "obviously straight" girls and imagining what they'd be like in a relationship. you saying to stick w/ canon instead of "making everything gay" also applies to sapphics. we're both the same, we both had to make everything gay and read through a gay subtext to survive

you can do you, you dont have to see the appeal of shipping a mlm pairing, but you can atleast show them the same respect as you would with others. "why would you want a ship with two men" ............................do you not see how wrong and bad this sounds? like. this feels like a very homophobic almost radfem view. but im not going to assume.just know this is what it sounds like to me.

i will give you this though, the quarry DOES have a loads better potential mlm pairing than the devil in me. why they don't engage w/ TQ instead? it all depends. it all probably comes down to them enjoying TDIM more than TQ

feel free to explain yourself or debate with me, or don't. whatever works

#mine #text #asks #anon #the devil in me #im sorry but this sincerely pissed me off #really? right in front of my The Prom shirt?#my thoughts #[emma mountebank voice] ok :) i’m done #TDIM #edit: switched the wording of heterosexual to homophobic. that’s what i meant more

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singularsoldier · 9 months

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One of my biggest complaints about lesbianism on this site is that I haven’t seen a remote whisper of similar discourse surrounding gay men.

Heads up, a lot of this is ranting/venting so im probably gonna repeat stuff or not make a ton of sense in some places:

Like, a man was married with kids before realizing he’s gay. Okay, cool. You’re still gay dude. A man dates a boygirl person. Still gay who cares. He thinks a female celebrity is stunning. Duh! Look at her! But the second a lesbian is inserted into those exact scenarios, its a race to micro label and argue over what she can call herself.

Previously married with kids, dating a boygirl, thinks a male celebrity is hot, all of these are used against the lesbian identity and can be boiled down to elementary “eww you have BOY cooties” which leads into terf territory. Its a rehash of gold star lesbianism and ultimately shames lesbians who were unsure of their identity or found themselves in comphet relationships for safety/lack of support. Hell, its shaming lesbians for even thinking a random person is objectively hot bc they ID as a man.

Moving on, a similar thing happens when someone who previously ID’d as gay/lesbian realizes they’re attracted to multiple genders. Even if its just romantic for one and sexual for the other, the gay person is ultimately seen as bisexual. No further questions. The lesbian? Once again, its a race to label and argue.

This is where “bi” lesbian loses me. I don’t see anyone calling gay men bi gays for being in those previous scenarios I listed. A bi guy who only dates women and sleeps with men is bi. End of story. Not a peep about being a bi gay. I have, however, seen multiple definitions of bi lesbianism that include those exact examples. A lesbian got exposed to BOY COOTIES so now they can’t call themself a lesbian.

Or, rather, a woman only likes men romantically but since she isn’t dropping her panties for him, she’s still a lesbian. Is she only bisexual if she has sex with men? What if she only dates girls and sleeps with guys? Does that make her a bi straight? Once again, the second a woman enters the equation, everything goes out the door and we have to argue about Person Who Doesn’t Have Sex With ____. Why is being bisexual regardless of how it presents a bad thing? I haven’t seen anyone give a solid reason other than “i dont wanna be bi” or parroting some kind of terf rhetoric.

Adding to that, in a lot of the discourse, it honestly feels like bigender/multigender people are being used as a gotcha. Like I said before, a gay guy dating a boygirl is just a gay guy dating a boygirl. A lesbian dating the same person? “They identify as a boy!!! You clearly like men!!” which, ultimately, ignores the full scope of that person’s identity. They aren’t just a boy in the same way they aren’t just a girl. I guarantee no one would jump down a gay guy’s throat and say “ummm ACTUALLY she says she’s a girl so she makes you not gay”.

The same gotcha issue comes about with trans people. It’s as if saying “I’m not attracted to men” equals not calling a trans woman a woman. I only ever see terf accusations float around when a lesbian makes that statement. Never when a gay guy says he isn’t attracted to women. If your first thought when hearing that is “well they MUST be talking about trans people” then you have a problem, and anyone who actually refuses to date someone bc they’re trans is the actual exclusionist.

Gay and lesbian have a region of gender identity that falls out of bounds. A lot of people do. Yet the level of discourse over everything I mentioned is drastically different between them. God forbid a lesbian say “oh I dated a gay once but realized I wasn’t attracted to men”. They’ll get called a terf, an exclusionist, and every name under the sun. If a gay guy said the same about a woman? Two notes and its gone.

#vent #rant #lesbian #lgbtqia #gay #lgbt discourse

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