#about the straight women who fetishize the shit out of mlm & then turn around and be grossed out by wlw existing. ur not cute | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

simpforthebaron · 3 years

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ok kids today we’re gonna talk about lesbophobia because i am so angry!! its under a read more and tagged for tw because this is fucking rough!!

so if any of you are on tiktok, particularly booktok, and you are at all on queer booktok you’ll have seen the absolutely disgusting video of this straight white girl being like “i loved red white and royal blue (a mlm book, shortened to rwrb in the rest of the post) but i just couldn’t finish one last stop (a wlw book), and i think its because i’m just not attracted to the characters, rwrb was just so cute and the two boys were so cute and they happened to be gay” (this is paraphrasing bc i couldn’t watch the actual video bc it made me so angry) and then after people pointed out that’s incredibly homophobic towards lesbians she said “i’m not homophobic, one last stop was boring, that lifestyle is just not relatable and my opinion still stands”

holy FUCKING shit there’s so much that’s already been said but like the blatant hatred of lesbians???? the fetishization of mlm relationships?????? it’s disgusting, it’s hateful, it doesn’t belong in the queer book community, and like i love for people to read books centered around characters who are a different gender or sexuality than themselves because it encourages diversity!!! it helps develop empathy!!! it makes those books more popular so people who ARE queer get more representation and more fun books that are about all kinds of things not just coming out!! but then these fucking straight assholes say shit like this and imply lesbians are somehow less “pure” and cute than gay men???? fuck that get out you are not welcome in the queer community i’m so sick of it

on a personal note, i’m a queer woman, but because of these shitheads who are ACTUALLY fetishizing gay men, there was a time i felt guilty about all my mlm gay ships, about the mlm books i read, INCLUDING RWRB, because i wasn’t as all in on wlw relationships in the same fandom (think harry potter, mcu, glee (derogatory) ) and i was genuinely afraid i was bigoted towards wlw, which in turn made me question my own attraction to women, and this is all to say that is a fucking lot to handle as a teenager, and i’m very confident about my sexuality now but i wish someone had told me that these people, the ones who see gay relationships as entertainment and not genuine human beings who love just as big as anyone, these are the people who are harming the lgbtq+ community, not you ya baby queer

* on a side note i do in fact love wlw books, i just hadn’t found the right ones, but now i’ve got a library full of them, to name a few, One Last Stop was incredible, Not My Problem is so cute, Written In The Stars is the LITERAL perfect fake dating trope, Her Royal Highness is RWRB for lesbians absolute enemies to friends to lovers perfection

#book talk #rwrb #one last stop #cw homophobia #tw homophobia #cw lesbophobia #tw lesbophobia #i really just emotion dumped on all of you i’m very sorry #pls forgive me i’ll reblog some more daniel content after this #thoughts from the baroness

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comingoutofthecauldron · 4 years

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let’s talk about lesbophobia in fandom

i don’t like to use the word “lesbophobia” unironically because of all the gross radfem terfy connotations, so i will clarify right off the bat that i am neither a terf nor an aphobe and that if you are i want you off my blog like, right now. unfortunately, the meaning of lesbophobia has been so warped by alt right lesbians that seeing it in an unironic context makes me, a lesbian, uncomfortable, which speaks volumes in itself. so to clarify, lesbophobia is essentially homophobia with a pinch of sexism thrown into the mix, and it’s running rampant in supposed safe spaces and, more relevantly, fandom.

/i’d also like to clarify that i’m not only speaking on lesbophobia, but also the general disgust and disdain for all wlw in fandom, and am using it as a sort of umbrella term/

lesbophobia and disdain for wlw has been around forever, but whilst gay positivity, mlm and mlm ships have been steadily increasing in popularity within fandom over time, wlw and wlw ships have remained perpetual underdogs. why? because lesbophobia has become a fandom within itself. both in and outside of fandom, we see instances of casual lesbophobia every single day—from aggression towards wlw to something as simple and prevalent as the complete and utter lack of sapphic ships and characters in media. hatred of lesbians and wlw is practically a trend, and it’s seeping in through the cracks of fandoms who are already facing issues with minorities and marginalized groups (i.e. racism, ableism). if you honestly think that lesbophobia isn’t prevalent as hell in fandom right now, you’re either not a wlw, you’re not all that involved in fandom, or you’re dumb as shit.

just look at ships. in almost every single fandom, the ratio of mlm ships to sapphic ships is ridiculously unbalanced. people are quick to ship male characters who so much as smile at each other (and i don’t condemn that) but would never do the same for two women—even on the rare occasion that the ship is actually canon. i once wrote a wlw fanfic for a [predominantly straight] fandom, and received messages like this gem:

on the flip side of that, if there is a sapphic ship in canon or fanon, it is often fetishized and sexualised to a disturbing degree. there will be double the amount of nsfw art and fics, and ninety percent of it will be derogatory and fetishized as hell. having been actively involved in several fandoms over the past few years (and currently a content creator in one), i’ve seen instances of all this hundreds of times. people go crazy for mlm ships, but the second you say you ship/prefer a wlw ship, there’s always someone at the ready with, “i think all ships are great!” or “it’s not a contest” or “i prefer [insert m/m or m/f ship] actually” or “they’re my brotp!/why can’t you just let them be friends?”. not only do lesbians and wlw not get to have any rep in media, any rep that they try to create for themselves in fandom just gets attacked or ruined. this is so detrimental not only to all wlw, but especially to younger wlw who will end up being indoctrinated into this belief that their sexuality is something dirty, something that can never be tender and sweet but rather something that deserves to be preyed upon.

building on that, let’s talk about engagement. i run an instagram account (where i have a significantly bigger following) as well as this blog for my fandom, where i post the content i create (mainly text posts). when i first started creating content, i made a lot for a relatively unpopular wlw ship, in which both girls are canonically romantically involved with a dude—though one of them is canonically pan. their canonical m/f ships are both very popular, and i noticed that my engagement was dropping every time i posted them, so i eventually just stopped. it wasn’t even a conscious decision; i merely resigned myself to the fact that the fandom didn’t want to see sapphic ships, and some people would even go as far as to condemn them. for reference, my instagram posts get an average of about 500 likes per post (popular ones usually exceeding 1k), but when i post this ship, my engagement drops to about 250 likes. similarly, my tumblr text posts have an average of about 140 notes per post (popular ones usually reaching up to 750), but my wlw content rarely surpasses 100. this just feeds the cycle of wlw never getting rep: if, like me, content creators become disincentivised by the lack of engagement with their sapphic content, they’re more likely to stop making/posting it, leading to further lack of rep—and when new content creators try to rectify that, they face the same problems.

and then, of course, there’s the treatment of actual wlw in fandom. my best example of this is when my friend and i made an anti account on instagram (the first instagram anti account in that fandom), our bio saying something like “salty and bitter lesbians being salty and bitter”, and received an onslaught of lesbophobic insults and threats from angry stans within hours. (tw: r*pe) one commenter even went as far as to tell us that they wanted us to get r*ped. as well as this, i’ve seen so many instances of people using slurs against lesbians in arguments/in anons, often for no apparent reason other than they feel that they have the right. when i first mentioned i was a lesbian on instagram, my account only had about 200 followers, and within a day i lost 20. i also lose followers whenever i post f/f ships, not quite to that extent but enough for it to be noticeable, on top of the aforementioned engagement dips. in the face of all this adversity, i think a lot of wlw turn to mlm ships because they’re the closest thing we have to actual rep, but when we do we get accused of fetishizing them by the same people who fetishize us. there’s an endless list of double standards that non-wlw have been upholding for years, and i can firmly say that i’m really fucking sick of it. because of our sexuality, we will never be allowed to enjoy something without someone labelling it or us as dirty or otherwise problematic, when to them, the only problematic thing about us is that we aren’t pleasing men.

as i mentioned before, the lack of rep for wlw in media is appallingly consistent, and part of that stems from tokenism. in a lot of modern mainstream media, you’ll have one, maybe two lgbt characters, and nine times out of ten those characters are white cis male gays. of course, there are exceptions to this, but generally, that’s it. script writers and authors (especially cishets) seem to have this mentality of, “oh, well, we gave them one, that’s sure to be enough!”, which means that on the off chance you do get your gay rep, the likelihood of also receiving wlw or any other kind of rep becomes practically non-existant. this belief that all marginalized groups are the same and that one represents all is what leads to misrepresentation on top of lack of rep, which is what makes tokenism so dangerous. if you treat your only gay character badly, you are essentially treating every single gay person badly in that universe. so not only is lesbophobia and disdain for wlw harmful to sapphic women via their exclusion in media, it’s also harming those minorities who do get rep. when people try to defend lesbophobic source material, that’s when fandom starts to get toxic. the need for critical thinking has never been more apparent and it has also never been less appeased—and wlw are getting hit hard by it, as always.

finally, a pretty big driving factor of lesbophobia is, ironically, lesbians. my lesbian friends and i often joke that though everyone seems to hate us, no one hates lesbians more than lesbians do. though i’d say it’s most prevalent on tumblr, i see traces of it all over the internet. the growth of alt right lesbian movements is not only reinforcing hatred for lesbians, but also reinforcing hatred for bi and pan women. here you have these terrible lesbians using their platforms to express their disgust for bi/pan women, for aces and aros, for trans women/nb lesbians, and people see them and say, “gosh, lesbians are just awful.” and just like that, all of us are evil. occasionally, lesbian blogs that i follow get put on terf blocklists for no other reason than the fact that they have “lesbian” in their bio. and the lesbians that actually deserve to be on those blocklists? they’re too busy spewing misinformation about trans women and bi women to care, boosted up by their alt right friends in an ever-expanding movement. i’ve found that this heavily influences fandom on tumblr, lesbians often getting branded as “biphobic” when they hc a female character as a lesbian rather than bi or pan. this criticism of both lesbians and wlw by lesbians and non-wlw alike only ever allows lesbophobia to grow, both in and out of fandom. that said, lesbians aren’t to blame for their own discrimination; rather, many of us have been conditioned into subconsciously endorsing it after spending our entire lives hearing heterosexual platitudes about lesbians and sapphic relationships. homophobic cishets are and always have been the nexus of this oppression—the only difference is that now they can hide behind alt right lesbians.

one thing has been made apparent to me throughout my time in fandom, and that thing is that no one likes to see men “underrepresented”. people hate sapphic ships and lesbians so much because there is no room for men, and men Do Not Like That. so, like the worms that they are, they slither their way in, be it through fetishization or condemnation of wlw characters and ships, and they ruin whatever good things we have going for us. the thing about worms, though, is that they’re easy enough to crush if you’re wearing the right shoes.

so to all my bi/pan gals and lesbian pals: put on your doc martens, because we’ve got ourselves some lesbophobes to stomp on.

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thesharondefenseleague · 3 years

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Ok for like the fetishization/sexualization for mlm in fandom I swear people just missed the point entirely. Like no one is out here complaining that Thor is sexualized in Ragnarok while people do complain about Natasha being sexualized because women being sexualized and fetishsized is the norm it is the default.

We are so conditioned to see images like that with women that sometimes it takes a man depicted in the same way ( like with the Hawkeye initiative) to see how over the top it is.

The problem isnt there are images in existence somewhere of sexualized women its that its the default regardless of who the intended audience is or what the context is. To the point where a women not being sexualized and fetishsized is a refreshing rare take. Men in general don't have this problem. They aren't usually sexualized by default so them being sexualized once in some movie isnt the same as women being sexualized constantly.

So the problem with fanfic and fanart was that this one type of medium where mlm weren't the minority where there was alot of content in many fandoms and where it was the popular content, was also the media where mlm being sexualized was becoming the default. Not that there were sexualized mlm sometimes for certain types of stories or art ( like erotica) but that it was becoming basically the default. Now I will say this stood out more for mlm specifically because men regardless of sexual orientation weren't sexualized by default in non fandom content.

Consider how canon mlm romances or moments were depicted compared to canon wlw romances and moments. So imo we noticed far more and called out alot more fetishization of mlm in fandom than wlw. Because we were so used to the sexualization of women it stood out less.

But still it was good mlm being sexualized didn't become the default in fandom. However the take away seems to have somehow become any mlm or wlw chatacter being sexual and being depicted as sexual is immediately problematic. But that scrutiny is never directed nearly as much towards m/w couples.

And tbh thats true for literally any thing in shipping in fandom mlm and wlw relationships that can be considered problematic on any level are scrutinized so much more than their mlw counterparts unless of course the mlw ship includes someone bipoc.

I remember like 5-7 years ago when misogyny was being called out in fandom especially in shipping culture was becoming more of a thing and I always had to side eye how people so often only used examples of a straight white couple being unpopular as the example. And it was always the straight white couple being unpopular that seemed to get people to call misogyny while couples including bipoc and/or wlw never got that same energy.

Even the few people who actually gave a shit bout sexism and didnt just want to make it problematic to like ships more popular than their otp cared mostly about the depictions of ships between a white guy and white girl in fandom. They spent little to no energy and woc or wlw.

And now it just seems white m/w ships are the easiest and least drama filled things to ship ( by comparison to mlm or wlw ships) unless its so unpopular that its irrelevant or still very new. I don't think thats a coincidence.

You make a lot of great points about how people are sexualized in media and how the fans react/run with what they see.

(Gonna put the rest under the cut since it's long on both sides)

I will say comic books, their movies, and their shows are one of the few places where men are as equally sexualized as women, on top of the intense pressure put on male actors' bodies to have these scenes, though for them the fantasy is intended for male audiences to see and go don't you wish you had a body like theirs unlike for them to see an actress' body with her intense regime and think don't you wish you had them for yourself. The comparison between how a character is drawn in comics and their actor being unable to achieve that extremely unrealistic body is humanizing to the characters. Think that example that comes by your dash now and then of Jackman in male-targeted magazines versus Jackman in female-targeted magazines, and how you can see that reflected in fandom spaces. Since fandoms are often majority women, a lot of modern m/m ships are wanting the softer side of guys based on how they treat each other, and many m/f canon ships are written with little thought past "man kisses woman during/after big battle". I think this is why a lot of audiences when they pick a favorite m/f ship out of Marvel films, it happens to be Steve with Natasha or Wanda with Vision, where they develop a proper relationship beyond if they kiss around a battle.

And we are moving out of the "mlm in film are heavily sexualized" time of media. It's hard to pinpoint when it started, but it's been moving away from it for years. Would like to note that I think this has more to do with mlm films are not always being slapped with the R rating as they used to. Harder for wlw where sexualized women are still considered more taboo, or even straight films with female sexuality shown with her enjoying it.

However I will say there is still a heavy layer of misogyny in fandom towards women if there are any m/f pairings. Remember how people said people tolerated Steve with Peggy because she was considered his past? And then when they were the final couple, people turned on that ship and in turn those shippers? And I've seen people jump through hoops to prove that any woman Bucky flirts with has to be a lesbian so that the ship gets shot down in canon in their own minds because they are afraid of canon validating a ship that interrupts their own. Plus the posts of him needing to be possessive over Sam because Sharon checked him out in episodes 3 and 6, even though this is the only character to have shown any kind of interest in Sam and he never even reciprocated? Fandom misogyny isn't as strong as it might have been, say, five years ago, but it's still heavy in mlm shipping culture.

~Mod R

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thewillowbends · 3 years

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Please learn with fetishization actually means and stop throwing it around when you really just mean "I don't ship that and it makes me mad others do." You only shipping het ships and thinking they are the One True And Only Superior Pairings and that everyone else is crazy and wrong and shitting on them for shipping mlm is a real bad look.

(It looks like homophobia. It sounds like homophobia. Tastes like it, too. I think it might just be homophobia. And wtf are you doing, tracking all shippers down and preforming sexuality brain scans to figure out if they're straight or not? Most people shipping LGBT+ are LGBT+, closeted or out, knowing or unknowing yet. Care about how people treat real people, because that's what matters. And you seem to treat them shitty.)

I literally came in here for two minutes to log out of this account for the rest of the month for spoiler reasons, and man am I glad I did, because I would've been even more pissed to come back to this in a few weeks.

For the record, I am literally bisexual, anon, and have been in romantic relationships with adult women. "Only ship het?" If you bothered to look at my fanfiction page or even scrolled down this blog, you'd see I've written several mlm and wlw pairings, not just het ones, not that shipping primarily het content means shit one way or another considering it dominates most media.

Not all straight women fetishize mlm, but I've encountered a hell of a lot of them who do. I literally just had to deal with somebody in current fandom who did that and then pretended it lended them some insight into LGBT+ issues and their ability to judge the validity of LGBT+ representation in media. For that record, it's not acceptable for bi or lesbian women to portray it that way, either, but since we make up a significantly smaller portion of the population than straight women, I somehow doubt we're responsible for mlm dominating 50% of the AO3 archive. I do not have to sit here and put the kid gloves on for my blunt opinions about people's internalized misogyny and homophobia.

Try using some of your own logic and stop assuming people the people whose rhetoric you don't agree with are straight. Anon asking is now turned off since this is literally the second ask I've received in one week containing biphobia or outright erasure of my sexual identity in my inbox. I have had my limit of the intellectual deficit and rampant hypocrisy that makes up Tumblr's discourse userbase in my inbox.

#literally one of the stupidest fucking things I've ever gotten in my inbox

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thehollowprince · 4 years

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Two cents from a female cis-het passing queer person who grew up in a deeply compulsory heterosexual environment. Media and mainstream het culture socialises girls and women to identify so much deeply problematic and violent male behaviour as perfectly normal, romantic behaviour. Prime example, Spike and Buffy. imo this is heavily reflected in the mlm slash ships that straight people love to fetishize, prime example St*r*k. When I discovered they were a ship it made me really sad.

Oh, you're preaching to the choir.

That was a pattern I picked up on years ago, one that I actually had to look for, because as a guy, I was told that it was okay to behave like the men we saw on television. Well... half told. My grandmother always told me to be nice first, because if you start off by being an asshole, no one's ever going to think your anything but an asshole. I also realized all on my own that maybe I should just care about other people, but that's just me.

The thing that really gets me about this phenomenon is that it's on here. Naturally, I don't expect Tumblr to be completely absent of this, but come on! This is Tumblr! You could throw a stick and hit a post about how men shouldn't treat women like that, or how women shouldn't put up with it, but then those very same people turn around and make apology posts for Kylo Ben, or Snape, or Damon Salvatore or Klaus Mikaelson or Spike. Oh, god, Spike! That whole "romance" (see: obsession) between the two just blew my mind, even back when the show was airing (yes, I'm old enough to remember when it aired on the WB and then UPN).

The fact that anyone can look at the intersections between Buffy and Spike and call that a romance disgusts me. And that's without even including the attempted rape. Just his obsession with her since the fourth season and how that spiraled into everything. That show really should have just ended at season five.

Spike is actually the earliest example that I've seen of a fandom loving a villain so much that the production decides to keep bringing them back. Except, you can't keep them around as the villain (y'know, the version of the character that everyone fell in love with), because it eventually gets to the point of "why can't the heroes beat the villain?" Simple, we'll give them a Tragic Backstory™, have them make the sad puppy eyes, and bam! We got us an antihero.

And people just eat that shit up.

It happened with both Damon and Klaus on The Vampire Diaries and The Originals. We have two characters who are introduced as these outright villains, killing people for their own amusement or to prove a point, but fans loved them so much that they got turned into antiheroes and all their bad deeds forgiven. I mean, its outright nauseating to see the way Damon treated Elena throughout the run of the show, invading her personal space, trying to compel her into kissing him, manhandling her, taking her choices away, and fans calling that love. Same with Klaus, who repeatedly threatened Caroline, actually tried to kill her (twice!), and Kl*r*line shippers thing that's the peak of romantic behavior because Klaus makes the sad puppy eyes. (See also: Theo from Teen Wolf)

And don't even get me started on the fandom fixation on Bonkai!

It all stems down to this weird phenomenon where one of the two characters is a self-insert for the reader/viewer, because they want to bang the male character/actor. That's why Rey is usually written so one-dimensional in R*ylo fics, because the reader is thirsty for Adam Driver. And that, of course, just leads us back to Teen Wolf and St*r*k. Although, that one's a little tricky, because you'd think that so many of these St*r*k shippers would insert themselves into Stiles (which there are a fair share that do), but more often than not, Derek acts as the self-insert, because most of the fans want to bang Dylan O'Brien. Seriously, I will never understand fandom's fascination with white twinks, but it's an all-encompassing thing.

Part of me understands because I'm old enough to remember the early years of internet fandom. Okay, I was there for FF.net before the purges. I remember Anne Rice's militant legal campaign against her own fans. I remember when the BNFs started gatekeeping, harassing the self-insert OCs in fanfic. Hell, I remember Ms. Scribe and the Inner Circle! I have seen things! And that crackdown against OCs was what led to the rise of fangirls in the slash fandom. Equal parts hiding from the BNFs and fetishizing mlm sexuality for their own amusement/pleasure.

The thing that really baffles me about it all is why St*r*I. Ignoring the obvious reasons (*cough*racism*cough*), why them. As I already pointed out, Tumblr loves their posts about self worth and not standing for abuse, but then turn around and advocate for one of the most abusive crack ships I've ever seen. Why not, say, Scott and Danny, who had actual moments that, if taken out of context, could be portrayed as moments of a building romance ("its Armani"), or Scott and Isaac ("Be careful"/"I don't want you to get hurt" and "Dude, I love Mexican"). Like, the subtext between Scott and Isaac was so strong that one could just call it text.

We had four canonically gay characters (Danny, Ethan, Mason and Corey) and yet the focus is still on two straight characters. Hell, Mason was literally the version of Stiles that fandom cooked up (incredibly smart, did the research, openly gay, had a crush on a hot werewolf that he was very open about) and yet he doesn't get even a fraction of the attention that Stiles does, despite fulfilling the criteria they claim they want in the form of more queer representation. It can't be because he's black, right? I mean, they've told me they're not racist, despite numerous examples of racism, so it's hard to know what to believe (insert sarcasm here).

But still, fandom put these two characters that couldn't stand each other, and who both had much stronger connections to Scott, together in their heads and then cried queerbaiting when they didn't get what they wanted. There comes a point where you have to question whether these people are that influenced by media and propaganda or they're being willfully ignorant.

Anyway, thanks for listening. Apparently I had more of that bottle up inside than I thought so thanks for giving me an outlet to express my frustration. And now, back to your regularly scheduled blogging.

#ask and ye shall recieve #fandom racism #fandom nonsense #anti sterek #anti reylo #anti klaroline #anti delena #anti bonkai #anti spuffy #teen wolf fandom problems

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purplepingupenguins · 6 years

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Let’s take a minute to discuss the homophobia and double standards in the Star Wars Fandom...

Okay, so, recently I made this post:

Which unsurprisingly got quite a few notes quite quickly. But also, was met with comments like these:

And as an lgbt+ person with chronic fatigue I'm pretty good at picking my battles and knowing when to not start drama, actually, that's a complete lie I will call you out on your shit no matter how shit I feel.

So, this is me calling out the homophobia in the star wars fandom. That's right kids, I'm calling you homophobic.

A special shout out to the folks who made this even possible @freddie-and-i-got-stayingpower @zeminon @natenko @brandong50

Firstly, I've seen a lot of things about how his sexuality isn't even hinted at so it's wrong to call him queer and I'm like.... huh??? So just because a character hasn't explicitly kissed or fucked another character of the same gender on screen then they can't be queer. And I know, you only care about lgbt characters when they do make out on screen so you can fetish them but that is a whole other issue.

90% if not more, of characters in media don't explicitly state their sexuality and because of that it's automatically assumed that they're straight and saying otherwise is forcing labels and a sexuality on them. News flash folks: if your adamant on making him het then you're forcing a sexuality on him too.

Yes, other than a lot of looks and subtext (flirting) nothing has actually been outright said that Poe has an interest in men. But also nothing has been said about him liking women either but you're all perfectly happy for Poe and rey to happen.

As the delightful first comment asked: why does it matter? Because Disney has never had a main lgbt+ relationship or character in movies before.

Star wars, where people can wave around laser swords and fly spaceships but can't kiss a person of the same gender.

Star wars claims to be progressive and at times, it has. Carrie Fisher was the first female character I ever saw pick up a gun and save herself. She was the first female character I saw that didn't need a relationship with a man to be complete but she just wanted one. Star wars new trio is a Latino man, A black man and a woman and that in itself is very important. But still isn't able to treat them with the basic respect they deserve.

Lgbt+ kids deserve to watch their favourite movies and feel just as powerful as everyone else. It’s as important as Wonder Woman is for women. It’s as important as Black Panther is for black people. But LGBTQ+ people don't get that, especially in movies because society doesn't want our sexualities to rub off on kids. Because they don't want their kids to be gay. Because they think being gay is bad.

"Stop trying to shoehorn lgbt into everything"

Hahahahahahahaha I’m sorry, what the fuck did you say?? I can’t hear you over how ridiculous that sentence actually is. It’s straight people who time and time again shoehorn new characters into plots in the hope that fandoms will love the new het couple over the baited queer one so producers don’t have to go through with having decent representation. For example, those that have seen the Last Jedi, Rose, I love her to pieces don’t get me wrong, but I do not love her relationship with Finn, not as a romance. They were such good friends throughout the entire movie and then bamn! Forced het romance!!

That kiss was so unnecessary that even the straightest of straights agree that it was forced. Not only did it ruin a perfectly good on-screen friendship between a man and a woman but it also showed just how shitty the writers and producers really are. That they’re so desperate to take attention away from a healthy, interracial, mlm couple, a couple that their entire cast and the majority of their fandom supports that they’re putting entire plots and storylines on the line.

“Jesus Christ everything has to be about lgbt these days. sick of it.”

Firstly, you're on tumblr. What the fuck do you expect? Secondly, you have a completely empty blog just to spread your homophobia, that’s childish af. Thirdly, LITERALLY, NOTHING IS ABOUT LGBT THAT’S THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT! Every single straight person who whines about “everything’s so gay now” “I can’t watch anything without it being all about lgbt” TELL ME WHAT YOU’RE WATCHING AND WHERE YOU’RE FINDING IT. BECAUSE IT DOESN’T EXIST.

Nobody is trying to make everything lgbt+, especially star wars, because if it was then we wouldn’t have han and leia and they’re iconic af, even if han is totally bi... okay, i’ll stop. But the point is, we’re not trying to make everything lgbt but most things are naturally lgbt+. One in four people are gay. Just gay. Think about how many characters are in Star Wars? It’s not unrealistic for some of them to be gay. In fact, it’s completely more than likely. Whether it’s Luke, Poe, Finn, Rey, Han, Leia or old Ben Kenobi, someone in that galaxy far far away is gay whether you like it or not.

I’ve seen a lot of people also saying that Star Wars isn’t even about romance, it’s about friendship and while, yes, you’re not wrong. Romance has never been a small part of it either. Han and Leia are still one of the most iconic straight white couples ever. Padme and Anakin’s romance was what started this whole mess in the first place and literally not a single person ever complained about either of those relationships.. So when you say that you don’t want it focussing on romance over friendship. What you’re really saying is that you’d rather it focussed on friendship than a gay romance.

“Stop with that lgbt crap”

That lgbt crap as you so eleoquently put it is literally mine and billions of other people’s lives. How about you stop with your homophobic crap? That’ll work out a lot better for us all?

Lastly, exactly who is it hurting?

Who is watching a healthy interracial queer relationship, or even just a non-white queer man on their screen and is hurt by it? Nobody.

Giving LGBTQ+ people a voice hurts nobody. Seeing a gay character is not going to turn your child gay, just like seeing millions of straight characters on screen hasn’t magically turned me straight, because that’s not how it fucking works.

What hurts people is silencing that voice. Calling it s*upid and childish and irrelevant, that’s hurting people. And I know, that if you’re silencing these voices that you probably don’t care but a lot of people do. It matters to more people than you could possibly understand. This sort of content has the power to change someone’s life for the better and if that makes you and your homophobic lifestyle uncomfortable for a couple of hours. Then I really don’t give a flying fuck.

If you don’t like it. Don’t watch the movies.

Stormpilot isn’t hurting anyone. If you wanna hate on a ship that is the symbolism of abuse then go shit on the r*ylo shippers, because that’s the real issue in the star wars fandom at the minute.

TL;DR: Stop invalidating lgbt+ voices by mocking them and calling them childish. Stop spreading your homophobia. If you don’t ship finnpoe, okay, move on. LGBTQ+ people deserve representation like women deserve wonder woman and black people deserve black panther.

Why are you all so adamant that it’s wrong for us to force queerness on poe or finn or luke but you’re all happy to force heterosexuality on rey who has shown no real interest in a relationship besides hugging finn.

Did I miss anything?

#I'm not even fucking sorry #Star Wars #FinnPoe #StormPilot #JediStormPilot #Yes I fucking tagged you people #Finn #Poe Dameron #Luke Skywalker #Rey #Rose Tico #FinnRose

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bisluthq · 3 years

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Sort of follow up to are Larries straight. It reminds me of the convo around mlm fanfic. The internet discourse I've heard is that a lot of those readers/writers would have said they were straight women then but later identified as queer. Which rings turn bc that is my gay origin story but also I would like some data please.

Ya no there’s queer women who write/engage in Larries/mlm fanfic but my point is it’s not really ever gay boys thirsting for representation it’s still coming from a place of fetish rather than a place of “oh damn this person might be like me.”

I’ve spoken about this before.

Obvi I’m a queer woman but I have gay guy friends. Much like queer women do, gay men have their own culture and norms and vibes and no it isn’t as simple as the caricatures portrayed in media. Now these are CULTURAL TRENDS I have observed not rules for every gay couple but the one I often bring up because it does appear to be so pervasive is how reluctant they are for traditional monogamy. Like I have gay guy friends who’ve been together for ages but keep Grindr on their phones “in case” and gay guy friends who find it “obvious” that a LDR should be non monogamous. Which is why it’s so very weird to me when Larries have them jump into a 5eva thing aged like 16 and 19 and not only that but as like... gold star gays. It’s just COMPLETELY unlike anything I can imagine taking place irl and tbh I think it’s unlike anything most young gay guys can imagine taking place too. They don’t want that love story lol they want to experience Sam Smith’s gorgeous and like loudly mlm song Young.

Speaking of Sam I think there are many very famous out gay masc celebs which means young gay boys don’t thirst for representation quite as much as young lesbians.

Like there are fewer - off the top of my head - loudly bi men in the public eye. Most of the queer blokes ID as gay. So if anything it’s bi men who’ll gravitate towards conspiracy ideas to feel less deviant whereas gay mascs will just simp for the million gorgeous amazing out gay men who are living their best lives with their casual boyfriends and later husbands and kids and shit.

So it’s just a very different dynamic/journey for coming out and it doesn’t “need” conspiracy ships on the way to self-acceptance that young lesbians need them because... there are so few out lesbians.

But young lesbians don’t feel that represented by actual out masc celebs often because it’s... as I suggest a slightly different culture and it doesn’t ring true to what they want or what they experience.

#nat talks gay celebs #nat talks celeb culture #nat talks social stuff #nat talks the konspiracy

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serendipitous-magic · 4 years

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hey 1st of all, love ur work! scndly, I NEED HELP. idk who else to go to, saw u talking about it the other day n i was like PERFECT! so im a writer myself, n the fic im working on needs some smut to happen. which is fine but heres the thing. the ship is mlm & im a straight girl. n i cant help feeling like im doing smthn wrong? also scared of getting shit for it for fetishizing them which I'M NOT! i genuinely love the ship a lot! but im stupidly hesitant n need reassurance. 😭 hope u answer soon!

Here’s the thing, the fact that you’re concerned about writing in such a way that doesn’t fetishise a mlm relationship already puts you a step ahead of the majority of writers/people that we’re talking about when we refer to fetishising lgbt relationships. (What comes to mind first is a) girls who go on an on about how “HAWT XD” their mlm ships are but then turn around and are like “I just don’t want lesbians to hit on me, that’s gross :/,” and b) men who are Homophobic but watch lesbian porn because it’s hot. That’s what I mean there.) So I’d say you’re already headed in the right direction.

Furthermore, I’d say one of the simplest ways to avoid fetishising lgbt relationships/sex in writing is just not to write it like a fetish. And that seems obvious, but let me explain. (And I’ll put it under a “read more” line to save y’alls dashes.)

Role playing is a fetish. Being tied up is a fetish. We’ve all read some sort of smut that centers on a fetish before. And in those pieces of writing, where’s the focus? In fetish smut, by nature and definition, the focus is going to be on the role-play, or the ropes, or whatever it is. Whether explicitly stated or inherently implied, it’s all about how wEiRd and UnUsUaL the fetish is (if not for the characters, at least for the reader / as opposed to the norm). Right? Even for something pretty tame like role-playing, there’s still this built-in supposition of, “Look at this thing that’s happening that’s different from the norm, and that therefore makes it more intriguing/hotter.” The scene is about the fetish as much as, if not more than, it is about the relationship. And therein lies the key here.

So, in writing lgbt smut, just be cognizant of how you’re approaching the situation. Are you writing it through the lens of “look, it’s two women / two men getting it on! That’s different than the norm, which therefore makes it hot!" If a lot of the focus is on, “look, it’s two men,” maybe reevaluate how you’re approaching the scene.

(Side note - that’s not to say that there can’t be any mention of “same sex relationships are outside the scope of “normal” experience” if that’s true/relevant for the character - which, in many cases, it is! Especially, for example, in historical fiction pieces. There’s nothing wrong with a character focusing on what this experience is like and how unusual / different it may feel to them, if that’s part of their characterization/plot. It’s just that the character should be the one in that mindset, if that’s part of the plot, not the writer/reader. If that makes sense at all.)

The focus - that is to say, the motivating force behind the scene - should be plot-based or relationship-based. Why is the sex scene here in the first place? Is it an act borne out of the need for comfort, after they’ve both been through something harrowing and they need the physical reassurance that they’re both okay? Is it a long-awaited dam breaking after months or years of mutual unacknowledged pining? Is it simply a slow Saturday afternoon when they have the apartment to themselves for once and they’re just taking advantage of that? Whatever the situation is - whatever the motivating force is (the reason they end up having sex in the first place, and then whatever plot points the sex scene carries through) should be what drives the scene and what the scene revolves around, not the fact that they’re two men or two women (or whatever relationship it may be).

That being said, say that the motivating force behind the scene is that this is the main character’s first experience with someone of the same sex, in which case it seems that the focus would be very much on “isn’t this strange, it’s two men making out.” How would that be handled, considering everything I rambled on about just now? Same rules apply. Here, the scene should be about the main character’s first experience with someone of the same sex - that is to say, the scene revolves around what the character is experiencing, thinking, feeling, etc.. The focus still isn’t on “hey look it’s two men,” it’s on what the character is experiencing - whether that’s, “I can’t believe I’m doing this,” or, “holy shit, this is what I’ve been missing?” or, “I absolutely should not be doing this with my best friend but I can’t bring myself to stop,” or whatever the direction of the scene is.

I hope any of that made sense!

#asks #anon #on gay smut #on writing smut #writing advice #fanfiction struggles

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iant0jones · 7 years

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The Gwen Cooper debate, part 2

So last time I posted about the Gwen Cooper discourse was a little less than a year ago (on Gwen’s birthday, to be exact). This post along with some fan content that’s been emerging recently has brought the discourse to my attention again and @javic-piotr-thane said I should finally state my thoughts on the matter.

Everyone obviously has the right to hate something, be anti something, etc, and I, a 19 year old who’s experienced like next to nothing ever, have absolutely no right to tell you what to think. Nevertheless, I’ve been in the torchwood fandom for over 2 years now and in that time I’ve witnessed and digested a lot of opinions and a lot of content on this matter, and I have quite a few opinions of my own. I didn’t post my opinions when I posted the debate because I wanted it to be focused on the fandom as a whole and not my opinion, but I think it’s my turn to take a few stabs at the discourse (not all of the stabs because it’s impossible to get all of my opinions down in one post, but a few stabs).

Many torchwood fans are very loud about their hatred for Gwen. Sometimes it’s through intelligent, well-thought-out discussion, and sometimes it’s comical bashing, and sometimes it’s “look, I just don’t like her, it’s that simple.” I believe fandoms as a whole need to stop taking themselves so seriously and allow people to say “look, I just don’t like [insert something controversial here], it’s that simple,” or “look, I really do like [insert something controversial here], it’s that simple,” and they need to stop policing that content and those people.

However, I also believe it’s important to recognize when opinions are caused by unhealthy habits/behaviors/etc. and it’s important to analyze and acknowledge why we fall into those unhealthy habits/behaviors/etc. For example, feeling the need to attack other people, especially women, because you think your opinion is right and their’s is wrong, or not accepting that it's always the creator[s]'s fault when a character does something you deem “problematic,” and not the character's fault. Or, I dunno, straight female fans getting upset because some female character’s getting in the way of their gay otp. Meanwhile, there are people who think Gwen can do no wrong and ignore her morally gray aspects, which is a disservice to the character and the creator[s]’s intent.

I like a balance. I want to see this woman from every complex angle she possesses. That’s difficult when there are so many writers for Gwen and so many contradictions in the torchwood universe, between the show, the books, the radio plays, etc. But I can try to address most angles here.

Gwen is a truly kind and empathetic character, and not as stupid as some fans make her out to be. She immediately hugs Ianto to comfort him as soon as she is able in Countrycide. She assures Tosh that she does not judge her for imposing on Gwen’s privacy in Greeks Bearing Gifts. She does the hard, emotional work in Torchwood when no one else wants to, like in Combat. She defeats the effects of retcon in Everything Changes. She says no to Jack’s desire to have loyalty without question in several episodes, like Adrift. She’s managed to survive everything Torchwood has thrown at her. She is tough, she has a mother-like need to protect, and she fights against what she feels is wrong when no one else will.

Nevertheless, she can also be selfish, self-centered, needy, a bully, and represent the promotion of unhealthy relationships. She cheats on Rhys multiple times. She retcons him after telling him that she cheated. She nearly cheats on him again, while in her bloody wedding dress, at that. She’s prying. She feels the need to attack other women to show superiority, especially in the books. She shows jealousy towards Ianto and undermines his relationship with Jack while simultaneously trying to earn Jack’s love.

This is the part where we get into the “straight female fans getting upset because some female character’s getting in the way of their gay otp” issue. I am not an avid shipper. I have very few ships that I am passionate about. However, my top two otps are Janto and Johnlock, and both of them have a strong female character that tends to get in between them (in Johnlock’s case, Mary Morstan). Now, as this is a torchwood post and not a Sherlock post, I’ll keep the comparison to a minimum, but it’s important to recognize the similarities between these ships and the reasons why fans don’t want women getting in between them.

Many people hate Johnlock shippers because some Johnlock shippers hate Mary and people think that we hate her because she’s getting in the way of us seeing two men fuck. They think we are fetishizing mlm and hating on strong female characters at the same time, which is an awful and admittedly wrong thing to do. However, these people seem to not understand that most Johnlock shippers are wlw who are looking for interesting, complex queer relationships that do not have to be imposed on by a straight woman, or the very heteronormative cliché of a love triangle. We want healthy representation.

I am a bi woman who wants to see Ianto and Jack have a healthy relationship, and I want the same for Gwen and Rhys. Gwen and Jack are, in my opinion, too similar, which is why they butt heads all too frequently and are driven by passion, not by sense. They would be just another uninteresting, unhealthy couple between a man and a woman on TV. That is not revolutionary. That is not good storytelling from a show that was so ahead of its time when it came to queer representation. Don’t be angry at Gwen for getting in the way of your otp making out, being fluffy, whatever. Be angry at her for intruding on the healthiest aspect of Jack’s life, and the healthiest aspect of her own life. Be angry at the creators for forcing another heteronormative love triangle created simply for the function of adding drama. However, do not be any more angry at female characters for the faults they have than you would be at the male characters that have the same or similar faults.

I definitely believe Gwen’s not the audience's perspective that RTD intended her to be. He alienated (buh dum tish) her from the audience by having her cheat and lie so many times. Also, I feel that the majority of the audience that has continued to be drawn to torchwood is a queer audience, and she is by far the least queer/the most arguably straight member of the team. She is also the one that causes the majority of her conflict/drama for herself in the first two seasons, while the other characters go through loss, PTSD, self-esteem issues, being ignored and unappreciated, depression, and suicidal tendencies; conflicts that are inflicted onto them by often uncontrollable forces. Most people cannot relate to Gwen’s faults or misfortunes, but a queer audience can (unfortunately) relate much more to faults and misfortunes of the other four characters.

And here is where I conclude my rant:

While I believe it’s important to continue this discussion on how Gwen and other female characters are treated by fandoms, maybe it’s time we stopped beating around the bush and started discussing the morally gray male characters that don’t get nearly half the shit Gwen does, like Owen and Rhys, or god forbid John, Jack, or Ianto.

#Gwen Cooper #The Gwen Cooper Debate #torchwood #doctor who #fictional ladies #representation

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mlmshadowhuntersource-blog · 7 years

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i've never written sexual alec/lydia, period and anyone who is perpetuating that has not read the fic in question. i am a queer woman but not mlm, so i can't speak faithfully to whether any of my fics have come across as fetishistic, but if they have i would welcome the feedback on how to grow and improve

Hi! I (mod Ira) have taken the liberty of providing some pointers to your writing. First, and most importantly, I’d like to discuss non-platonic Alec/Lydia in fic. Something much of fandom seems unable to understand is that Lydia and Alec’s relationship is inherently toxic. In the beginning of season one, we see Alec as a terrified closeted gay man, willing to commit suicide before being outed to anyone. Lydia knows he has feelings for Magnus before they get married, and goes through with it anyway. She was in a position of power over him, because she never expected him to back out of the marriage, and so takes advantage of him. After the wedding kiss, Alec says that Lydia letting him go saved his life.

Many non-mlm have trouble understanding that writing non-platonic Alec/Lydia is inherently homophobic. Lydia was more than Alec’s temporary beard. Lydia was a manipulative person who took advantage of Alec’s trauma to gain an Institute. Creating au’s in which they are planning to marry is trivializing the trauma and internalized homophobia from Alec’s experiences of living in such a deeply homophobic society. Mlm can write this in order to relate it to their own experiences, and some even find it helpful to work through their own related trauma. People who are not mlm shouldn’t use it as a plot device to further Alec and Magnus’s relationship.

I’d also like to discuss a common trope in malec fics. The infantilization of Alec Lightwood in order to make him more desirable for sex is fetishistic. This is seen in your fics No Sweeter Innocence and blow me (one last kiss). Sexual inexperience is different from being bashful, blushing and embarrassed, especially when the Alec we see on screen is nothing like that. Alec in canon would resent being coddled and being seen as an innocent baby who doesn’t understand what he wants enough to articulate asking to be taken to bed, why do you write him that way?

Another issue we see is Magnus as the Ever Giving Partner while Alec sits around sucking him dry of affection. The balance between their affection is concerning. Why is Magnus the one constantly smothering Alec in love and pet-names while Alec is allowed to eat it up and never give back? Furthermore, there is again not much evidence in canon to support this. Alec is the one seen giving Magnus gifts, initiating intimacy, confessing his feelings first, and seeking Magnus out for company. Rarely is it the other way around. Why do you see Magnus as the one who lives and breathes affection and waxes poetic about Alec, and why do you see Alec as the one who has most of the orgasms and let’s Magnus coddle him?

On a more personal note, we never said your fics were garbage. Many of your fics are very sweet, I enjoyed your Found Family ‘Verse quite a lot! And yes, we’re giving you feedback to improve your writing, like you asked, even though mlm don’t exist to keep non-mlm from being fetishistic. The amount of entitlement to ask for an explanation and then vague us on your blog before actually receiving a response is astounding. I hope this was helpful!!!

Hey, it’s Tyler here. If you’re still reading I have commentary, too. First off, I am going to say that I am at fault - I should have read your works before taking the word of someone else (who was a mlm so I did trust his word, and still do). It is totally on me for not fact checking and I will remember to fact check before I state things as fact. However, he was not wrong to say your works were fetishistic nor was he wrong in suggesting we not rec your fics. (There was fetishization in your fics and while there was not sexual Alec/Lydia, there was romantic Alec/Lydia).

Onto your fic: First Comes Love. As Ira mentioned earlier, Alec is infantilized a lot. But most notably is how you write him as if he’s unable to make decisions or do anything for himself when that isn’t the Alec we see on screen. You make Lydia the decision maker (which she is, canonically, but so is Alec) and you make Magnus… well, I wouldn’t call it predatory but it’s really uncomfortable how he flirts with Alec, notices Alec’s uncomfortable, stops briefly, and then starts flirting again. Yes, Magnus is flirty but I don’t believe he would flirt with anyone when he knows they’re uncomfortable. (I mean, canonically Magnus told Alec he would back off if he [Alec] could say he was in love/loved Lydia and canonically Magnus did tell Maryse he would leave if Alec told him to).

I know Ira didn’t read “First Comes Love” but the whole dynamic between Alec and Magnus was… well, I wouldn’t say it is predatory because I’m not a 100% sure it is but it is uncomfortable. I think what makes it uncomfortable is how Alec has been infantilized to a point where it is completely out of character for him.

However, I’m not here to tell you how to better that fic because I actually discourage it. I read your disclaimer but ignoring canon, the relationship you have written is extremely unhealthy. It is very one-sided, Lydia seems to be the voice in the relationship and the one who ‘runs’ the relationship to the point Alec doesn’t really have an opinion on anything.

Anyway, I want to talk about your disclaimer.

Updated A/N: Just to clarify, I tagged this fic as ‘alec/lydia’ and added an extra warning tag because I know some people don’t want to read alec/women regardless of context and I want to respect that.

Ask yourself why do people not want to read Alec/women regardless of context? It’s not just a matter of it being uncomfortable. Yes, it is uncomfortable but it is also extremely disrespectful. It is disrespectful because it is taking an experience that a lot of gay men relate to and may have been through and turned it into a plot device. Our lives, our experiences, are not meant to be used as plot devices in fanfiction and they are not meant to be used by non-mlm.

And furthermore, if you wanted to respect us not wanting to read Alec/women (or, for some, not even wanting to see Alec/women) you would not write it. Period. Full stop.

As a gay man, when I watched that episode I can’t even describe the amount of pain and discomfort I experienced because I thought Alec was going to marry Lydia. Just imagine the pain and discomfort I experienced as an outsider, as someone just watching a tv show, now amplify that by a 1000 and you probably have the exact feeling that Alec felt, that every mlm who was forced into a straight marriage/relationship.

However, two things about this story, 1) Alec is gay, 2) the only pairing presented romantically is Alec/Magnus. Not offended if it’s still not your cup of tea, but just want to make that clear if people are trying to judge from tags alone.

It isn’t, though. Alec/Lydia is presented as a romantic pairing. In the fic, they are engaged- that is an inherently romantic relationship. You cannot write a relationship where two characters are engaged or even married and then turn around and say, “oh but it’s not romantic” because those are romantic relationships.

That’s all I have to say on that and if you’re still around I also read “Blow Me (One Last Kiss).” But I have to agree with Ira on literally everything that he said. Also one thing they didn’t address is… please if you’re going to write smut, please say ‘dick’ or ‘penis’ - not length.

Also not to critique a smut scene because that was the last thing I thought I’d be doing at 6 o’clock on a Monday morning but I feel like it would be physically impossible for Alec to do what you’re saying he is doing. Unless Alec just doesn’t have a gag reflex.

On a personal note. I would like to say something about the vaguing which I didn’t really appreciate when I saw your blog. You messaged us, probably seeking an apology, and feedback. Which we were both very happy to give but after we saw your blog we were kind of… thrown. I can’t speak for Ira but for me, personally, I found it childish. Why message us then vague us or vague us then message us? I get vaguing, I vague people all the time, but I don’t turn around and message them - or vice versa.

I’m gonna be frank, had you not messaged us we never would have seen your vague and you know what that’s perfectly fine. You can talk shit about us and spread lies and over-exaggerate what I said (not Ira, because they weren’t a mod at the time) and I frankly don’t give a fuck. I would rather someone not message me giving off the air of politeness and civility and then turn around and talk shit. That’s fake as hell.

But onto your vague posts which I have some problems with because some of the things really rubbed me the wrong way. Specifically the amount of entitlement.

“apparently a sh mlm blog rec’d one of my fics but then removed it and like made a recant post basically saying someone had told them i write fetishistic fic and ‘sexual alec/lydia’ so they would never post any of my fic again.”

Specifically the “so they would never post any of my fic again” part rubbed me the wrong way. You are not entitled to our spaces and we do not owe it to you to promote your fic, especially if we don’t feel the material you are writing is something that should be promoted. We are not here to promote the fics of people who fetishize mlm or portray Alec/Lydia. Actually, our blog’s purpose is to raise up the voices of mlm and we aren’t obligated to promote anyone who isn’t mlm. But the fact that you felt entitled to our spaces is just beyond infuriating.

i dunno how many followers they have but they posted my ao3 tag and everything

As of this posting we have 108. And I didn’t “post [your] ao3 tag and everything.” I stated your ao3 username, yes, but I hardly call that “everything.” I posted what I did because I choose to try and take responsibility for my actions - as I am doing right now.

(and like, tbf i would try to be open to whatever criticism this person has on the first point because i’m not mlm obvs so i’m sure i’m not perfect by any stretch, but the second point could only be made by someone who’s literally never read my fic so..)

On this part… if someone asks us for feedback, I will give it to them. However, it is not our job to go out of our way to educate every single fetishistic or homophobic fic writer. Your job, as a writer and as someone portraying mlm when you are not a mlm, is to go out and do the research and educate yourself and make sure you’re not portraying us in a negative/fetishistic light. Not to sit back and publish your work until someone comes along and tells you, “hey this is fetishistic” or “this is homophobic.” Your job, as a writer, is to make sure that doesn’t happen.

And our job, as mlm, is to make sure we aren’t promoting fics that are homophobic and/or fetishistic. (And yes, you can be homophobic despite being a queer woman and stating that you’re a queer woman is not a get out of jail free card).

if you don’t want to read my fics that’s awesome but since you haven’t actually read them can you maybe not tell everyone else they’re garbage? thanks

Neither of us has said your fics are garbage so again with the twisting of our words and over-exaggeration. All I said was that someone brought it to my attention that you write fetishistic portrayals of mlm (which you do) and sexual Alec/Lydia (which you don’t, but you do write romantic Alec/Lydia) and that I would not rec your fics on a blog by mlm for mlm. And that is fully within my rights. We do not have to cater to you or any non-mlm.

I said anyone could follow as long as they are respectful of the fact that this is a safe space for mlm because I feel non-mlm should be able to hear our thoughts on how mlm are portrayed and see proper portrayals of mlm.

But I will not tolerate people feeling entitled to our spaces because the only people entitled to this space is mlm.

#ithilien-writes #mod tyler #mod ira #commentary #long post #fetishization #infantilization #homophobia

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aroceu · 7 years

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i’ve seen a varied amount of replies to a post by a trans mlm talking about how he felt like a lot of women-aligned fandom writing about mlm was fetishizing rather than actually lgbt-positive. i’ve seen a lot of my women-aligned and nb and women-aligned nb friends respond with some positivity - but overwhelmingly i’ve seen a lot of negativity, how it felt like another man was gatekeeping something that women made for women, and that the fandom that is largely women - slash fandom, specifically - does not intend to nor does it actively shut out mlm participants. this especially was the response from lgbt women, from what i’ve seen, because the fact that they write about and ship a lot of m/m ships does not inherently mean it’s fetishistic.

the discourse i want to address is that while the targeting of women’s sexuality occurs in mainstream media that it is important for women - lgbptq women especially - that doesn’t mean that the space that we occupy is immediately free of criticism. and i don’t think that that’s what people who respond to such accusations of fetishizing are trying to imply. but the aspect of immediate defensiveness makes me wary. since slash fandom is largely occupied by women - lbpq women especially - we rarely hear the voice of men. and we don’t need to! in the frequently addressed patriarchal society that we all know about, we do need a space to both explore and express our sexuality without the interference of men.

but again - we, fandom, slash fandom is flawed. in the wake of progressiveness that tackles questions regarding gender identity and sexuality, there has been a slight increase in trans fanfiction and discussions. there has been more talk about mental illness in fandom, and awareness about how white-biased fandom is. there has been talking about interacting with kids in fandom, and how we treat characters of similar or younger ages in our fanwork.

and all these things are issues in mainstream media - but they’re also issues in fandom. we know how awful the movie split is, but fandom also has normalized disability tropes and terminal illness narratives. we want more mainstream poc representation, but fandom is still overrun by kylo/hux instead of poe/finn, stiles/derek instead of scott/stiles, shawn/lassiter instead of shawn/gus, emphasizing the relationship between raleigh/mako instead of the familial bond between mako and pentecost. we want more women - “well written” women mainstream, but sherlock fandom still shits all over mary and i can’t even begin to talk about the internalized misogyny that occurs in literally every boy band/music rpf fandom.

obviously these things are not prescriptive, and some of us are more aware than others. but the one thing that is different about slash fandom from mainstream media is that where heterosexuality can occur, we often spin it around to make it gay. because many of us are lgbpq, or we care about lgbpq people. there’s still nuance here (how we treat women in favor of gay ships, how we treat moc in favor of white gay ships, how we treat woc in favor of white gay ships...) but this is the element that makes slash fandom different.

still, when it comes to the discussion of possibly fetishizing gay men, we dismiss it entirely. or we say it’s not as harmful as how mainstream straight men treat lesbians. and yes, it’s true that the possibility of fandom fetishizing gay men isn’t and will never be as harmful as the treatment lesbians face on a day to day basis.

but that doesn’t mean that we are flaw-free, or that we should aim or ignore the possible flaws we may have. we don’t have to listen to men, but we also don’t have to be harmful in our own space when they are harmful all around us. and with regard to young gay men, especially young gay trans men, there are honestly very few spaces for them to feel safe, either. it’s hard to deny that a lot of lgbtq+ communities have a lot of emphasis on drugs/alcohol/sex, which aren’t inherently unsafe - but may not be the place that young gay (and trans) men are looking for. we, the slash community, are a place that fights for lgbtq positivity and equality, and in turn we should also be welcoming. i’m not talking about men specifically, and i don’t think we should cater towards men - but we do discuss, ship, and furthermore care for young gay men in our fictional mediums - and naturally i don’t think ostracizing them should be prevalent within our communities.

the only people whose discomfort i don’t care about in regards to a space championing for sexuality positivity for marginalized groups are cishet ablebodied white men. otherwise, i think we should be critical of ourselves, and absolve to be welcome to those who deserve it.

#this has been a post brought by me

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colorisbyshe · 7 years

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that anon crying about mlm doesn’t really care. mlm just love that they can now point the finger at women and cry “objectification”. this isn’t about misrepresentation or “using mlm to find their sexuality” it’s all about playing the victim. stop reaching to make women out to be the bad guys. not every woman who writes about or finds solidarity in mlm content a uwu yaoi fangirl. it’s bc that’s all we fucking have. in the real world it always boils down to misogyny and toxic masculinity

I don’t know if I co-sign this 100% but like... are mlm really gonna ignore how women’s issues and homophobia overlap, often come from the same sources, and have been fought in the same circles? Like, yeah, hold cishet women responsible for the fucked up shit they do, but completely divorcing mlm and wlw issues is just... it’s sketchy at best.

Like, the reason why WLW have spaces away from MLM is because mlm are men and we want spaces away from men because they are... our oppressors. It doesn’t work in the opposite direction.

And like?? Completely diving up the markers makes NO fucking sense to me. “We don’t want any women to consume MLM content” just slices your market in half?? Like, having people being able to empathize across gender lines, sexuality lines, racial lines is a GOOD thing. I would fucking LOVE for straight women and all men to look at women who love women and think “yes, they’re human beings just like me and deserve their own narratives.”

Yes, there is a risk of fetishization. But BY and fucking large, most content about MLM created by women is about humanizing them, adding depth to relatively flat characters, and, y’unno, worshiping the fucking ground they walk on while shitting on every woman who gets in the way. Yeah, there’s a problem when cis straight women abuse their straight privilege and start doing creepy shit. I think we’ve all heard a million fucking times over about how bad fetishizatiion is.

But Dream Daddy which is about cooing over cute men, realizing their nuances, and defying stereotypes... isn’t that. And women playing it, supporting it, giving it their money isn’t fetishizing. Like... people need to learn what that word means, the power dynamics behind it, and how just seeing something sexually isn’t... fetishizing.

It’s not just a fucking buzzword. It’s referencing an abuse of power and the dehumanization as well as exploitation of one group by their oppressors for their oppressors’ pleasure.

Like? WLW aren’t MLM’s enemy. WLW have stood by and been treated like shit by MLM even in the darkest times. Yes, there has been lateral aggression from both ends but like...

I’m just so fucking tired of the victim complex at play here. Because I don’t see what it accomplishes besides dividing MLM and WLW by painting WLW as aggressors rather than MLM as our oppressors.

It’s a way to turn the blame around in a situation that doesn't even require blame. WLW would love to have a game like Dream Daddy. We’d love to have the shit MLM brush off. We’d love to have fandom and fanart and fanfic and games but like??? We don’t. Because everyone hates women, wlw especially.

Lmao.

God. It just feels SO fucking disconnected from the material reality of women when men go off about how we’re speaking over them. Like?? The fetishization of MLM is like... a fucking small look into what it’s like to be sexually objectified as a woman or woman aligned person. You think we don’t fucking get it?

#Anonymous

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