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sneezypeasy · 1 month

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Why I Deliberately Avoided the "Colonizer" Argument in my Zutara Thesis - and Why I'll Continue to Avoid it Forever

This is a question that occasionally comes up under my Zutara video essay, because somehow in 2 hours worth of content I still didn't manage to address everything (lol.) But this argument specifically is one I made a point of avoiding entirely, and there are some slightly complicated reasons behind that. I figure I'll write them all out here.

From a surface-level perspective, Zuko's whole arc, his raison d'etre, is to be a de-colonizer. Zuko's redemption arc is kinda all about being a de-colonizer, and his redemption arc is probably like the most talked about plot point of ATLA, so from a basic media literacy standpoint, the whole argument is unsound in the first place, and on that basis alone I find it childish to even entertain as an argument worth engaging with, to be honest.

(At least one person in my comments pointed out that if any ship's "political implications" are problematic in some way, it really ought to be Maiko, as Mai herself is never shown or suggested to be a strong candidate for being a de-colonizing co-ruler alongside Zuko. If anything her attitudes towards lording over servants/underlings would make her… a less than suitable choice for this role, but I digress.)

But the reason I avoided rebutting this particular argument in my video goes deeper than that. From what I've observed of fandom discourse, I find that the colonizer argument is usually an attempt to smear the ship as "problematic" - i.e., this ship is an immoral dynamic, which would make it problematic to depict as canon (and by extension, if you ship it regardless, you're probably problematic yourself.)

And here is where I end up taking a stand that differentiates me from the more authoritarian sectors of fandom.

I'm not here to be the fandom morality police. When it comes to lit crit, I'm really just here to talk about good vs. bad writing. (And when I say "good", I mean structurally sound, thematically cohesive, etc; works that are well-written - I don't mean works that are morally virtuous. More on this in a minute.) So the whole colonizer angle isn't something I'm interested in discussing, for the same reason that I actually avoided discussing Katara "mothering" Aang or the "problematic" aspects of the Kataang ship (such as how he kissed her twice without her consent). My whole entire sections on "Kataang bad" or "Maiko bad" in my 2 hour video was specifically, "how are they written in a way that did a disservice to the story", and "how making them false leads would have created valuable meaning". I deliberately avoided making an argument that consisted purely of, "here's how Kataang/Maiko toxic and Zutara wholesome, hence Zutara superiority, the end".

Why am I not willing to be the fandom morality police? Two reasons:

I don't really have a refined take on these subjects anyway. Unless a piece of literature or art happens to touch on a particular issue that resonates with me personally, the moral value of art is something that doesn't usually spark my interest, so I rarely have much to say on it to begin with. On the whole "colonizer ship" subject specifically, other people who have more passion and knowledge than me on the topic can (and have) put their arguments into words far better than I ever could. I'm more than happy to defer to their take(s), because honestly, they can do these subjects justice in a way I can't. Passing the mic over to someone else is the most responsible thing I can do here, lol. But more importantly:

I reject the conflation of literary merit with moral virtue. It is my opinion that a good story well-told is not always, and does not have to be, a story free from moral vices/questionable themes. In my opinion, there are good problematic stories and bad "pure" stories and literally everything in between. To go one step further, I believe that there are ways that a romance can come off "icky", and then there are ways that it might actually be bad for the story, and meming/shitposting aside, the fact that these two things don't always neatly align is not only a truth I recognise about art but also one of those truths that makes art incredibly interesting to me! So on the one hand, I don't think it is either fair or accurate to conflate literary "goodness" with moral "goodness". On a more serious note, I not only find this type of conflation unfair/inaccurate, I also find it potentially dangerous - and this is why I am really critical of this mindset beyond just disagreeing with it factually. What I see is that people who espouse this rhetoric tend to encourage (or even personally engage in) wilful blindness one way or the other, because ultimately, viewing art through these lens ends up boxing all art into either "morally permissible" or "morally impermissible" categories, and shames anyone enjoying art in the "morally impermissible" box. Unfortunately, I see a lot of people responding to this by A) making excuses for art that they guiltily love despite its problematic elements and/or B) denying the value of any art that they are unable to defend as free from moral wickedness.

Now, I'm not saying that media shouldn't be critiqued on its moral virtue. I actually think morally critiquing art has its place, and assuming it's being done in good faith, it absolutely should be done, and probably even more often than it is now.

Because here's the truth: Sometimes, a story can be really good. Sometimes, you can have a genuinely amazing story with well developed characters and powerful themes that resonate deeply with anyone who reads it. Sometimes, a story can be all of these things - and still be problematic.*

(Or, sometimes a story can be all of those things, and still be written by a problematic author.)

That's why I say, when people conflate moral art with good art, they become blind to the possibility that the art they like being potentially immoral (or vice versa). If only "bad art" is immoral, how can the art that tells the story hitting all the right beats and with perfect rhythm and emotional depth, be ever problematic?

(And how can the art I love, be ever problematic?)

This is why I reject the idea that literary merit = moral virtue (or vice versa) - because I do care about holding art accountable. Even the art that is "good art". Actually, especially the art that is "good art". Especially the art that is well loved and respected and appreciated. The failure to distinguish literary critique from moral critique bothers me on a personal level because I think that conflating the two results in the detriment of both - the latter being the most concerning to me, actually.

So while I respect the inherent value of moral criticism, I'm really not a fan of any argument that presents moral criticism as equivalent to literary criticism, and I will call that out when I see it. And from what I've observed, a lot of the "but Zutara is a colonizer ship" tries to do exactly that, which is why I find it a dishonest and frankly harmful media analysis framework to begin with.

But even when it is done in good faith, moral criticism of art is also just something I personally am neither interested nor good at talking about, and I prefer to talk about the things that I am interested and good at talking about.

(And some people are genuinely good at tackling the moral side of things! I mean, I for one really enjoyed Lindsay Ellis's take on Rent contextualising it within the broader political landscape at the time to show how it's not the progressive queer story it might otherwise appear to be. Moral critique has value, and has its place, and there are definitely circumstances where it can lead to societal progress. Just because I'm not personally interested in addressing it doesn't mean nobody else can do it let alone that nobody else should do it, but also, just because it can and should be done, doesn't mean that it's the only "one true way" to approach lit crit by anyone ever. You know, sometimes... two things… can be true… at once?)

Anyway, if anyone reading this far has recognised that this is basically a variant of the proship vs. antiship debate, you're right, it is. And on that note, I'm just going to leave some links here. I've said about as much as I'm willing/able to say on this subject, but in case anyone is interested in delving deeper into the philosophy behind my convictions, including why I believe leftist authoritarian rhetoric is harmful, and why the whole "but it would be problematic in real life" is an anti-ship argument that doesn't always hold up to scrutiny, I highly recommend these posts/threads:

In general this blog is pretty solid; I agree with almost all of their takes - though they focus more specifically on fanfic/fanart than mainstream media, and I think quite a lot of their arguments are at least somewhat appropriate to extrapolate to mainstream media as well.

I also strongly recommend Bob Altemeyer's book "The Authoritarians" which the author, a verified giga chad, actually made free to download as a pdf, here. His work focuses primarily on right-wing authoritarians, but a lot of his research and conclusions are, you guessed it, applicable to left-wing authoritarians also.

And if you're an anti yourself, welp, you won't find support from me here. This is not an anti-ship safe space, sorrynotsorry 👆

In conclusion, honestly any "but Zutara is problematic" argument is one I'm likely to consider unsound to begin with, let alone the "Zutara is a colonizer ship" argument - but even if it wasn't, it's not something I'm interested in discussing, even if I recognise there are contexts where these discussions have value. I resent the idea that just because I have refined opinions on one aspect of a discussion means I must have (and be willing to preach) refined opinions on all aspects of said discussion. (I don't mean to sound reproachful here - actually the vast majority of the comments I get on my video/tumblr are really sweet and respectful, but I do get a handful of silly comments here and there and I'm at the point where I do feel like this is something worth saying.) Anyway, I'm quite happy to defer to other analysts who have the passion and knowledge to give complicated topics the justice they deserve. All I request is that care is taken not to conflate literary criticism with moral criticism to the detriment of both - and I think it's important to acknowledge when that is indeed happening. And respectfully, don't expect me to give my own take on the matter when other people are already willing and able to put their thoughts into words so much better than me. Peace ✌

*P.S. This works for real life too, by the way. There are people out there who are genuinely not only charming and likeable, but also generous, charitable and warm to the vast majority of the people they know. They may also be amazing at their work, and if they have a job that involves saving lives like firefighting or surgery or w.e, they may even be the reason dozens of people are still alive today. They may honestly do a lot of things you'd have to concede are "good" deeds.

They may be all of these things, and still be someone's abuser. 🙃

Two things can be true at once. It's important never to forget that.

#zutara discourse #the colonizer argument #anti anti zutara #text post #long post #anti maiko #anti mai #tagging just in case #anti purity culture #this is not an anti-ship safe space

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nightsmarish · 8 days

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Summary: as summer at hogwarts approaches, both you and Regulus build up your walls again, lose sleep, and are warry of saying yes to the offer to go to Potter Manor.

A/n: might write a pt.2? Would we like that? Maybe? Idk, I lost the plot halfway through and u can tell lmao. Also, have not written for this specific ship, so I may not be as good as the queen of this ship

Update!: pt2

Poly!moonwater x gn!reader (Remus lupin x regulus black x reader) | 1.6k words

Tw: allusions to toxic family, losing sleep, snippy bc of losing sleep, negative thoughts, anxiety, a nap dude

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History of Magic is usually an easy subject. Sit down, take notes, look over the assignment, complete it during dinner or before bed, and you're done.

But today everything but that is happening. You managed to get all the way to sitting down and pulling out your parchment and quill before the words Professor Binns says all mesh together. Nothing makes sense.

And you know it's due to the ache behind your eyes, the pounding in your head and the ache in your bones.

The last few nights you haven't slept, not really at least. It's nearing the end of this year at Hogwarts so everyone is preparing to go home. Planning what they will do with one another over break before the new year starts up. Talking about their family traditions, and a feeling of excitement takes the castle.

Despite this, a feeling of dread has been following you like your own personal rain cloud. The knowledge you'll have to return home eating you alive. Knowing you won't be able to contact Remus or Regulus, less your parents find out you're dating them, making you feel like you're choking on your heart.

The memories you've made this year really should weigh out the weeks you will spend with your family. In the stiff place, you're forced to call home with strict rules and expectations. Yet, you feel horrible. And it's been causing you to force yourself into your studies for the upcoming tests. Avoiding sleep due to nightmares that have recently plagued your mind.

Which leads to now, the room spinning slowly on an axis, ans Professor Binns slightly to blurry, even for a ghost. You know you need to zone back in, drink some water, take a vitamin potion or even visit Madam Pomfrey at this rate. Yet you can't make yourself do it.

Continuing to stay in your zoned out state till the end of class. And that's when even you draw the line.

Standing up from your seat as everyone filters out, albeit a little you're moving a little slower than usual, you exit in search of your boyfriends. Either or both. And it's not exactly a very long search, quickly finding yourself face to face with Regulus Black and Remus Lupin.

"Hey, dove." Remus' voice is sweet, per usual, like the comfort of a spoon full of honey on a sore throat.

Regulus doesn't speak for a full moment, analyzing you. To anyone else it would look judgmental, but the softness in his eyes and slight pull at the edge of his lips tell you differently.

"Hi, Rem." The boys look at one another, an unspoken conversation playing out.

"Why don't we go to my dorm?" Remus looks back to you, "haven't had much time for the three of us. James and Sirius have quidditch, and Peter is going to his study group."

"I'm down." Without another word, the three of you walk towards Gryffindor tower.

ᯓ★

Remus knows that Regulus tends to be a little quieter the closer to the end of the year, having been around the other Black brother for a while now. Already knowing how closed off Sirius would get when he still lived at the Black Manor, building up the walls early to protect himself when he left.

Even now, Sirius does it. Remus isn't sure if it's a habit or the fact that Regulus has been refusing to take the offer to stay at Potter Manor as well.

But you? You, he's not sure. Remus knows you and Regulus have known one another longer than he's known you, and that's never really bothered him. Remus knows all three of you love one another, and he's never felt left out. But know? Know he wishes you'd talk about your own home life.

Regulus doesn't like talking about his experiences at home; the only thing Remus knows is from old stories from Sirius. And Remus will never pry, not wanting to force either of you to do anything you don't want to.

But Merlin, he feels nearly useless right now, wishing to see the tension in your shoulders calm, wishing to see you and Regulus calm again. Wishing Regulus would take the offer to join them at Potter Manor. He wishes for both your safety more than anything.

The walk to the dorm is quite, but not peaceful. Everyone trying to stay calm and wishing someone else would say something. But no one knowing quite what to say to break the silence.

Once you do get up to the dorm, the Gryffindor's dorm, Regulus sets his bag by Remus' nightstand, you following suit, the emblems on your bags a contrast to the surrounding room. Regulus goes to find clothes he's left in Remus' closet before, while you sit on the lycans bed to slip off your shoes. Remus sits next to you, his hand resting on your lower back.

And finally, after far too long, Remus breaks the silence. "Dove..."

You glance up at him as you slip your shoes under the edge of his bed. "Yes?"

Remus sends a quick glance to Regulus, who's slipping on a long black sleeve shirt, one more comfortable than the previous Slytherin uniform. "I understand if you aren't comfortable with it, but..." He pauses for a moment, glancing back to look into your eyes, his thumb rubbing gentle strokes on your spine. "If you want to, you know you're welcome to stay at James' house."

Under his hand, Remus feels you tense, and from his peripheral, Regulus paused to listen.

"That's- that's okay, Remus. But tell James I appreciate the offer, please." You stand up far too fast for your lack of sleep, causing you to fall right back where you were sitting. Alerting both boys.

One of Remus' hands stay glued to your back, the other on your shoulder, as if your keen over. Regulus is quick to stand infront of you.

"Love, you should stay with them." Regulus' voice is full of worry. "It's better than any other option."

"You're not going." Your eyes shoot up to Regulus', far more defensive than you mean to be. Remus' hand, which was previously on your shoulder, moves down to the bed, the other hand continuing to run against your spine again.

"That's doesn't mean you shouldn't go." Regulus matches your defensiveness out of habit.

"You both should come." Remus talks before you can shoot back, hand on the bed finally moving to Regulus' arm, never seeming to catch a break.

There's a heavy pause. One that goes on for an uncomfortable amount of time.

"I'll think about it if you do." Your voice is more timid as you hold your stare at Regulus' eyes, his boring right back into you. Intense, deep, and so, so, loving.

Regulus sighs, "fine."

"Thank you, both. Seriously, you should come. James and Sirius want you guys there. Not to mention James' parents, they love new people." Remus kisses your hair line, standing up, hand leaving your back, before kissing Regulus on the lips. Both your bodies lossen.

Remus moves to change out of his uniform, and you quickly stand up to join him. Regulus' hand comes out to make sure you're steady as you grab a pair of sweats that no one truly knows who belongs to. They were probably once James, but at some point Lily stole them, and at a different point Sirius stole them back, and now so many of your friends have worn them at some point, it's probably weird.

Grabbing those and a jumper belonging to Regulus, you turn back to see Remus already curled around Regulus' back, who lays with enough room for you to join them. Both trying not to show just how eager they are for an afternoon nap.

You climb onto Remus' bed as well, using your wand to close the curtains, magically dimming the lights in the room before placing it on the bedside table. Curling into Regulus' front, leg thrown over his hip, you tuck your head into his neck. Yet your eyes remain open.

You definitely want to sleep, and you know you should, Remus is likely already asleep, knowing the bastard sleeps like the dead. Yet the knowing you could have another wretched nightmare makes you stay awake, staring over Regulus' shoulder the the golden brown hair tucked into his back, belonging to Remus, and letting the black hair belonging to Regulus slightly tickle your cheek.

"Go to sleep dove. Both of you. Please, you can't function without it." Remus' voice seems to startle both you and Regulus, both believing he was asleep, and believing the same about one another.

You pull back from Regulus neck, facing him, seeing the features of his face barely visible in the dark room. "We will, baby." Your voice is soft, as if you were telling a secret.

Remus merely hums and shift slightly before relaxing back into Regulus' back.

"Get some sleep, darling." Regulus kisses your cheek, "it's going to be okay in the end."

"I know. I know. We both need sleep; Remus is gonna kill us." Softly connecting your lips with his, slow and lazy, both smiling at the hum from Remus, confirming the empty threat you made for him.

You return to your being tucked into Regulus' neck. "'M sorry for being snappy with you." You mumble against his skin.

"You have nothing to apologies for, I understand where you're coming from darling." His hand rests on your hip and lower back, relaxing further into you and Remus, closer and closer to having a lovely nap. Of which, you join with the hopes of no nightmares.

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sophiamcdougall · 2 years

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Oh my God. Where do I -- how do I -- OK, @pensierosatanista, I'm going to try. @becausegoodheroesdeservekidneys is sure to do a better job than I can, but I'll try. So you know how Boris Johnson has a habit of just blatantly, brazenly lying, right? Like "there were no parties in Downing Street during lockdown." "I am shocked and appalled to find out that there were parties in Downing Street during lockdown! I had no idea whatsoever this was going on." "I am shocked and appalled to find out I was at all of the parties..."

So all his ministers put up with that, loyally spouted the line that there's nothing to see here and no one did anything wrong and even if there were teensy, insignificant breaches of the so called "law" who even cares? So it's not surprising that Johnson concluded he could just carry on lying (and degrading any lingering standards in public life) indefinitely. So recently the Conservatives dramatically lost a couple of by-elections, BOTH of which happened because the sitting Conservative MP was forced to quit after he did something gross and sexual. One was caught watching porn in Parliament, the other, much worse, was convicted of assaulting a teenage boy. So a few days ago it came out that one of the Whips had got drunk and groped a couple of men. Rather unusually, the culprit promptly resigned from his role as Whip, although not as MP. It's grim to say it, but in itself, this probably wouldn't be such a big deal. The problem was that 1) Johnson didn't immediately sack him as an MP 2) the guy had done it before. H'd been formally investigated and everything. Johnson, on cue: I had no idea he'd done it before!! Various MPs: OK, wait. Yes, you fucking did. It was reported to you. I was there. You made jokes about it. You hired him anyway. Johnson: OK, maybe. I mean, yes. I forgot. Who can keep track of all the sexual assaults their subordinates have committed, amirite? Various other MPs, live on TV: The Prime Minister had no idea it happened befo-- oh. Oh, he now admits he had, you say? Huh. Well. I look kind of stupid now. And it wasn't the first time versions of that, (MPs going out to defend Johnson only to find that whatever line they were pushing had collapsed before the interview was over) had happened either. So yesterday, the Chancellor Rishi Sunak and the Health Secretary Sajid Javid both resigned, saying they just couldn't take the lies and toxicity and, y'know, the small matter of the culture of drunken sexual harassment, any more. Now it may be true that they really can't stand serving under Johnson because who could? But mainly what they mean is "I'd like a shot at being Prime Minister and if I don't get out now, I'm going to be associated with all this shit forever and that is bad for my personal brand." Historically, just one major minister resigning saying "I can't serve under this Prime Minister" has always meant that PM is toast. So ... the floodgates opened. Since then it's been averaging out at nearly two resignations an hour. Partly because people who've been sick of Johnson for years finally felt they had permission to do something, but mainly because it's either get away from Johnson as fast as you can or go down with him -- staying = saying "Yeah, judge me and my competence for any future office by the fact I approve of this dickhead". And even before all of this happened Johnson was staggeringly unpopular according to all polls. As I write we're up to forty-six resignations. Keir Starmer, the leader of the opposition, came out with a clearly workshopped-to-fuck but still good line "a sinking ship fleeing the rat."" Any normal Prime Minister would have resigned after the first two! Any normal Prime Minister would have resigned before any of this happened!

Johnson, you will have observed, is not a normal Prime Minister. Trump-like, he is currently insisting he's never going to go. This is somewhat less terrifying than when Trump did it because we don't have guns here and even when he DID have a crazed personal fanbase it wasn't that rabid and he doesn't have it any more. But technically, the rules currently say the Tories can't get rid of him for at least another year. That's not a big problem, as they have the freedom to change those rules and are going to by Monday. But technically, they could vote to remove him as leader of the Conservative party ... and he'd still be Prime Minister. And there would be nothing they or we could do about it! This would be completely unprecedented, a gigantic constitutional crisis, and in that case we might be stuck relying on the fucking Queen to save us, which is obviously a) is pretty dire for a so-called democracy and b) what if she doesn't. It probably won't actually come to that? (...will it?) He has just made a lot of enemies all at once, including the crazy own goal of sacking Michael Gove, his scheming long time frenemy/nemesis, who is the one the Murdoch press really likes. The 1922 committee is "preparing instruments of torture." And although it's true that this is not a normal way for a PM to behave -- a lot of PMs have said "Fuck you all! I can totally survive this!" in various crises, only to quit the following day. So everything's a little terrifying and he might take us all down with him, but it is also spectacular and hilarious and it's preventing the government from actually doing anything. And so today was the headiest and most electrifying day I've experienced, politics-wise, since November 6th, 2020.

#UK politics #Boris Johnson #ukpol

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gritsandbrits · 8 months

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In light of recent news over the passing of voice actress Arleen Sorkin, I wish to reflect on the impact of Harley Quinn on my life.

When I was a kid I grew with Harley. From getting fired from a tv show for giving questionable advice, as her backstory in the 2004 cartoon The Batman, to falling in mad love with her own patient as is the origin story in the 92 animated and subsequent media, Harley has such a big role in Batman lore I don't remember a single time where she wasn't involved. Sometimes I wonder what batman mythos was like before her inclusion.

The first thing that drew me to Harley was her design. Red and black the colors of danger which she was. But there was an added playfulness, that she genuinely enjoyed being herself. She was also VERY hilarious and at times out of pocket. Child Me was amazed. Did I want to be her? Not necessarily. But she did look like someone I'd hang out with.

The meta origin of Harley is just as fascinating. The creators of BTAS saw a performance of Arleen in a clown costume. From there inspiration leapt off the pages onto the big screen. Unlike most of the cast Harley didn't originate from the comics. She was created exclusively for the show, an OC if you will. OCs tend to have a mixed reputation. But Harley's concept and execution was so perfect, she almost feels like she could've been a real character in the comics.

And real she became!

Introduced as a psychiatrist, after receiving Joker as a patient, Dr. Harleen Quinzel begins to fall in love with him; and down a path to iconoclastic doom. Her love for Joker is obsessive, hilarious shallow, horrible but also downright entertaining to watch. I enjoyed every moment she was on screen: I still quote "rev up your Harley" to this day! I see her despair, her goofy outlook and morbid ruthlessness. I wanted her to get comeuppance but at the same time I can't help but feel sorry for her.

Joker abuses her, ignores her, and only complements her when she does something good for him. While the makes how awful their relationship clear, there are a good amount of fans who sees the pair as a glamorous whirlwind romance a la Sonny and Brenda or Jane and Mr Rochester. While such fantasies may seem morbid I don't blame them. No matter how horrible Harley is there is a tiny unavoidable spot that aches for her to win. Or at least see Joker for the monster he really is. While Harley is often held accountable for her actions her arc shows that no one deserves to be abused.

Arleen's performance played a major role in brining Harley to life. She nailed her weaknesses and strengths with such a sincere note that elicits pity, humor and shock at the same time. And of course that ear candy of the New Jersey accent that set the standard for future VAs. Whenever I look at a picture of Harley I hear Arleen. Not to say the other VAs aren't bad, but Arleen's performance is that iconic I can't help but think of her!

Over the years Harley grew apart from Clown Prince of Crime. She got her own spinoff comics, made appearances in other DC media. She even gotten her own tv show which sees the DC universe through her eyes. Harley has marginally healthier romances, primarily Poison Ivy (this isn't to say that pairing doesn't have it's share of toxic moments). The Harlivy ship is a fan favorite but even without shipping and the wars, Harley still shines bright as the Bat Signal.

In a way Harley's descent and eventual rise back to normalcy reminds me of my own struggles. I wasn't a happy child growing up, I've made a lot of mistakes and bad choices. To see a person like Harley work to take back control of her life, makes me feel a bit better for my own prospects. Of course I wouldn't torture a kid to near insanity or blow up a whole city but I can at least put my energy towards something constructive. Harley shows people like me thay we can be more than just screwups if we try.

Of course I can't forget Harley's design. The red&black suit is an icon by itself and inspires similar designs in and outside comics. I could talk all day about how cool her design is from a show and historical perspective but that would take me all day. While I prefer her classic palette, her recent blue and pinks aren't bad either and show just how far she's come out of Joker's shadow. It's even to the point where when, I see something black and red and white I have to point it out and say "Harley would love that outfit!"

Nowadays I complain about the oversaturation of Harley quinn (seriously what was DC thinking taking a team started by a disabled character to reclaim her agency) and overshadowing other cool DC villains. But I would be lying of I say she didn't leave an impact. And it's all thanks to Arleen Sorkin for breathing life into a character that proves you don't need to be be from "the comics" to be considered cool.

Thank you Arleen! May her memory be a blessing - Grits.

#arleen sorkin #harley quinn #essay #dc comics #btas #voice actors #batman the animated series #birds of prey #harley quinn show #characters #may her memory be a blessing

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sixstepsaway · 6 months

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I don't get why people want to pretend Ed wasn't abusive. Why do people insist on making everything into binaries? Yes, Ed has been a victim of abuse. Yes, he has been abusive. Both things can be true. I love him because I think he's in interesting and I understand where his pain is coming from (even if I think S2 was a missed opportunity in terms of character development). But anyway, thank you for writing about this because maybe some folks genuinely don't recognize abusive trends.

I think it has a lot to do with the fandom culture of only being allowed to like "wholesome" ships.

Look at it this way: when season 1 was airing, Ed and Stede were, in fact, very wholesome. Sure, they had some moments of lesser wholesomeness, but overall they were pretty wholesome and sweet and gentle. They were sweet and finding love in middle age and it was adorable. They had a general stamp of fandom approval that they were, in fact, Wholesome And Good To Ship™.

If you look at other fandoms, you'll see a lot of times there's the Good And Acceptable Ship and then there's the Bad Ship (or ships) and the Bad Ship is always slapped with the "oh that's actually incest!" label when they've, idk, grown up together, or "oh it's abusive!" because one of them one time made a bad joke or something, or "power dynamics!" because one is 27 and one is 25 or one is short and the other is tall or whatever, and yeah sometimes the Bad Ship is actually toxic or whatever (which is not a reason to not ship and enjoy it!), but they're put in neat little boxes: Good and Bad.

And for a lot of people, those boxes keep them safe. Last year, someone who was an Izzy Hands fan got doxxed because...? They liked Izzy Hands and shipped him with... I don't know actually. Ed? Stede? It doesn't matter, all I know is they got doxxed.

The side of fandom that thinks you should only ship the Good Ship are toxic and downright dangerous. It's happened again and again in numerous fandoms and just keeps happening.

So when at the end of s1, Ed turned around and cut Izzy's toe off and fed it to him, I think a lot of people panicked because shit, now Ed was Bad too, and if he's Bad then you can't like him or relate to him or ship him with the Good guy of Stede, so what the fuck do you do?

Obvious answer: Blame Izzy. Izzy's already classed as Bad, so put all the responsibility on Izzy for Ed's darkness and then it's safe to ship Ed and Stede again and no one can call you an abuse apologist or whatever for liking them together.

(To be clear: Shipping says nothing about your real morality. This is very clear for many reasons, one of which is... spend thirty seconds watching fans of the Wholesome Ships dox people and abuse people online lol)

So they spent all this time saying Ed was just scared and lashing out, and now s2 has come along and Ed is... well, abusive, canonically.

And for most of us, that doesn't really matter. We can still enjoy Ed and Stede or Ed and Izzy, we can throw ourselves into fanworks and enjoy the show for the things we like, and we can critique the things we have issues with (my problem is not Ed being written as dark and twisty and having a villain arc, my problem is the show writing it badly, exploring it badly, and then handwaving it, because it's shitty writing) and still really enjoy the vibes we got from the show.

But for people who are scared because they spent all this time saying Izzy fans should kill themselves for liking an abuser, well... now they have a choice: either admit Ed is an abuser and admit that liking a character doesn't dictate your irl morality, nor does it say anything about you aside from what you enjoy in fiction, or excuse away his actions, insist he's just a lil meow meow and continue feeling safe in their little bubble.

In a lot of ways I can't blame people for wanting to duck and cover from it. I mean, look at the shit people get for liking characters who aren't perfect, or talking about the imperfections of characters, or just enjoying complex narratives!

But what genuinely concerns me isn't anything to do with the fiction really, it's when people look at Ed's behavior in 2x01 and 2x02 and go, "Nah he's fine," because oh, honey, no, you are making yourself so vulnerable to real life abuse. That is what worries me, which is why I answered that one ask saying Ed wasn't abusive, it felt important to point out why he is.

Anyway, that's what I think is happening here. I think people are just scared that if they admit their fave has multitudes and isn't a perfect character who never does any wrong, they'll get doxxed and abused and harassed online.

I get that.

#anonymous #ask

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olderthannetfic · 4 months

Note

https://olderthannetfic.tumblr.com/post/739381076510785536/so-it-seems-our-flag-means-death-has-not-been#notes

I liked OFMD and I'm sad it's not getting renewed, but I agree that the fandom was especially toxic, even by the standards of currently popular slash-heavy fandoms. I wanted to read fic after s1 ended the way it did, and I read a little bit, but along with it having all the tropes that I can't stand in a lot of what is currently big with the MSF crowd (and that I'd been happy to have a reprieve from in my current main M/M fandom), the toxicity of the online fandom discourse made me quickly realize it was one that I was going to discuss among my current-friends-from-other-fandoms who also watched it, and my sister who watches it, and pretty much ignore the rest of the Internet. It was such a perfect storm of everything awful, from people who are overly invested in it to an unhealthy degree (I think I realized I wasn't gonna be active in the larger fandom around a month or so before the s2 renewal announcement, when I saw earnest PSA tweets telling people to "stop threatening suicide in HBO's replies if they don't renew OFMD"), to bombarding and parasocial obsessions with the creators and actors, to all the classic "anti" and purity police crap that plagues anything that gets popular on here.

The fandom it reminds me the most of, honestly, is Yuri on Ice fandom at its peak in early-mid 2017. Again, a show I love, but a fandom I absolutely do not miss. In some ways they are kind of similar shows: ones with canon M/M romances where they were not billed as that, and they were hinted from early on but people didn't trust it due to years of dealing with queerbaiting, where that sort of thing slowly crept up on people and then became the defining feature of how it was discussed everywhere. I wonder if there's a particular level of insanity that that type of thing breeds in its fans - or maybe, more broadly, "canon M/M with a large female fanbase." Like, you don't see this kind of thing in canon M/M stuff that's mostly watched by queer men rather than women, but there are shades of the insanity I also remember from Glee fandom (I was more active on the F/F side of things there, which had its own unhinged drama, but the Klaine vs. anti-Klaine stuff was so explosive that it was hard not to notice it if you were anywhere in that fandom, like a mushroom cloud in the distance). But YOI and OFMD do seem very... singular in the particular kind of obsession that they generate.

And I really wish people would shape the fuck up, because if they're going to act like this over and over again, that's just going to de-incentivize showrunners to make shows like this for that audience.

Driving Con O'Neill off Twitter was one of the worst parts of it, too. There was something so refreshingly earnest about how much he embraced the fandom, even the weirdest parts - saying with regard to NSFW fanart that "art is art" and retweeting stuff like his character in a crop-top that said "babygirl." It was so nice to see an actor who didn't usually have that kind of following embrace it wholeheartedly rather than steering clear. ....And then people had to be awful and creepy and obsessive and he left Twitter. I bet he's going to be a lot more skeptical of dealing with fans in the future!

It's not just the canon m/m aspect: it's the wholesomeness.

Yes, yes, they're all evil pirates, I agree, but watching S1 did give me the feeling of something that was supposed to be very progressive and light-hearted in particular ways. I don't think that's bad, but it does tend to attract some very over-sensitive fans with some very rigid expectations.

It's sadly par for the course that one of the random side character actors is the fun one and people are jackasses and desperately want the leads they ship to be the fandomy ones and/or just start creeping on any actor they can get a reaction from.

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littlekohai77 · 19 days

Text

Thoughts so far (Ikevil)

🄲🄾🄽🅃🄴🄽🅃 🅆🄰🅁🄽🄸🄽🄶: This is nothing but just a ramble, a bit suggestive, op is clinically insane.

*･ﾟﾟ･*:.｡..｡.:*ﾟ:*:✼✿　　✿✼:*ﾟ:.｡..｡.:*･ﾟﾟ･*

Okay so I finally tired out Ikevil and I just wanna say....

I'm in love with William. I have known him for no longer than an hour but I'll commit war crimes for him. Wtf how can someone be so lovely??? How can someone be so captivating that other people become this obsessed with them?

I can't even begin to fathom what I'm feeling right now.

I'm so confused and intrigued because usually, the recommend suitor tends to be really cold or the route turns out to be boring. Basically they tend to be the golden cow.

But William is an anomaly. He's not cold or rude or harsh or as morally gray as others.

He seems quite level headed, polite and morally good.

At least from my impression of him so far.

Also Harrison is so 😍😫😩🙌🙏😫😭💀🤔🤤😓😬🤒🤗😘😚😡🤬😤🤯🧐😳🙄😳😳😳😍 🙇‍♀️🤰💃💃🏃‍♀️👀👁👁👀👁👁💦🔥💦😻😫😖

But I still didn't pick his route for now. I'll probably go for him after William.

Strangely enough, Liam doesn't interest me in the slightest bit in the romantic aspect. But I do want to be his friend, if that's even possible, cause he seems to be suffering.

Also Harrison gives off traitor vibes which is even more 😍🤗😍😳🙌😩

April 24... I'll keep it in mind and see for myself.

I don't know what it is I like about Ellis. Maybe it's just that I'm into size kinks and he's one tall goofy little goober. Also the fact that he wants to make you happy 😏 HUEHWUHEHEHEH

Jude Jazza. Is giving frollo vibes. Idk why IT'S GIVING FROLLO FROM HUNCHBACK OF NOTRE DAME. Also he has a resemblance to Silvio. The tone, the 'woman', the hair, the face, the attitude.

I'm sorry but Elbert is giving FUCKING MAGPIE VIBES. It's kinda adorable. Until he steals your jewelry.

Idk what to feel about Roger. What's even more unsettling is the uncanny resemblance with Tray from Twisted Wonderland. I associate Tray always with good things but Roger gives off none of that and that clash makes me feel unnerved and queasy.

Victor... I don't know what to feel about him. His carefree and easy going nature makes me even more weary of him.

I don't like Alfons. Period.

He just radiates toxicity. He looks like he's an avid player of mind games and I do not wish to participate.

Yeah... That's about all of them for now.

ALSO KATE

KATE KATE KATE

I think I'm having another gay moment here cause goddamn is she beautiful and do I feel for her. I might just make another oc and ship her with Kate... For science..

I have bearly started the route but I'm already in love with William.

*･ﾟﾟ･*:.｡..｡.:*ﾟ:*:✼✿　　✿✼:*ﾟ:.｡..｡.:*･ﾟﾟ･*

𝙰𝚕𝚛𝚒𝚐𝚑𝚝... 𝚃𝚑𝚊𝚗𝚔 𝚢𝚘𝚞. :)

#ikemen series #ikemen #ikevil #ikemen villains #ikemen villains jude #ikevil victor #ikevil jude #ikevil william #ikevil harrison #ikevil liam #ikevil ellis #ikevil elbert #ikevil alfons #ikevil oc #ikevil discussions #pointless rambling

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poopingonthefloor · 9 months

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Davesport is Toxic NOT abusive

(((WARNING: PRETTY LONG POST UNDER THE CUT.))) I've seen some people making the claims that Davesport is comship/proship (ok well i've more seen people bitching about it) and im tired of the Davesport slander so this will be an analysis of their relationship. My motive isn't to force anyone to ship it or anything- i really dont care what you do with your life, my frustration is just when people try to make up REASONS why they don't like the ship, even though its literally canon (and not badly written). My main point is -- You can hate what you want. You don't need a reason, and it doesn't need to be bad just because you don't like it. But I will not take any slander on their ship nor any slander of people who like davesport. Davesport is absolutely toxic-- No DSAF fan would disagree. They are literally child murderers with little to no souls and literally are physically disfigured to the point they don't have the capacity to feel proper humanity anymore. You cant expect 2 men who live their lives willingly murdering and then partying in vegas to celebrate on repeat to be gentle and kind to themselves or anyone else.

However, its NOT abusive. I've seen multiple people (mostly from twitter screenshots) claim that Davesport is abusive or the way people portray it is in a fetishy or romanticizing way of abuse, when that's just not the case. I don't blame a lot of people, since a lot of it comes from reading context and intent of the artist, which not everyone is good at-- BUT I'm here to assure you that MOST people don't intend to do that much and just like to portray how their dynamic is canonically like or portray Daves obsession with Jack. Another argument I've seen (by a twitter screenshot...) is that people are comshipping Davesport because people draw Jack annoyed a lot at Dave when...thats not true? That's just Jack's personality, first off:

(From the Dave x Reader fanfic by Directdoggo)

"Jack is a bastardman not very touchy-feely. We can see this in many scenes, where Dave more or less says “I love you” and Jack responds with deflecting humour, or outright scorn. When Dave says it for the final time, this time, Jack tries to say it back, but can’t outright, only getting out: “Why is this so hard?” and “I hope you can find peace with what you’ve done.” Which Dave understood the meaning of. (Hey, better than Henry (LEGACY Jack) hearing “I love you” and proceeding to tear Dave limb from limb, huh?"

(Directdoggo describing Jack's personality)

I know it can be a little confusing to some people, but as someone who struggles with similar issues, just because he struggles to express intimately doesn't mean he can't love anything. Sometimes people are just different and communicating like that doesn't come as easily, even to the people you're closest to. To make it as easy as possible to comprehend-- He's quite literally a tsundere. (Minus the exaggerated ridiculousness in anime) He loves Dave, he just cant bring himself to say or act like it. The dismissiveness or rudeness in response to Dave's affection is not abuse, it's just a defensive response since he doesn't know how to say it back. (His way of being "shy") -- Also note its important that Dave UNDERSTANDS this about him by that point.

However Jack isn't the only thing I've seen regarding the claims that their ship is abusive-- and to debunk all of those I'm going to explain the three points that keep Davesport from being abusive, and I'll use Henry x Dave (which is what I'll call it to prevent it getting confused for FNAF willry) as an example alongside it since its super obvious why that one is messed up. Firstly, They are both bad people. By this point, Dave and Jack are murderers. It's just not surprising that they will be willing to kill each other at at least some point, considering they are willing to kill 5 year olds without remorse- and they'll both deserve it. It's only their own faults that they teamed up with the other, and it's meant to be the ultimate irony when Jack becomes even worse than Dave by "An ending". My point is- they're bad people. It's not like they're owed perfect company or would choose wholesome people to hang out with when they're literally both child murderers. Dave wasn't evil and didn't want to kill by the time he teamed up with Henry (and even after it was Henry's fault), so by that point his suffering was absolutely undeserved.

Secondly, They're lacking any specific power dynamic. Unlike Henry and Dave- whom have several levels of "Age, Father figure, and Employer", the most important one is that Henry is Dave's abuser. He manipulated him and purposefully harmed him both mentally and physically, whereas Dave never had any intention of doing either because Dave loved him and didn't want to lose him (because he had nobody else) This obviously much different with Dave and Jack, whom other than being taller and several years older than (which you can argue their 6 year age gap is weird but they didnt get to know each other till they were both older than 30 so by that point age difference doesnt rlly matter and (also theyre "mentally" like 24 and 22 canonically anyways (as much as I usually hate that argument)) Other then that they are only co-workers. This is a bit more arguable during DSAF 1, where Dave comes across more threatening and comes across like he's manipulating Jack, but I don't exactly count that because I wouldn't say theyre "shippable" or in their "situationship*" by that point (but also because them even being a ship was barely considered by the creator at that point obviously)-- whereas Dave is certainly more easily recognized as sincere to Jack in DSAF 2. Jack also is not someone who is afraid to defend himself against Dave, as shown by the fact he's willing to call out Dave's ridiculous behaviors (which is reasonable of him to do).

(Also from the Dave x reader fanfic) (I just think this specific screenshot debunks any sort of "power dynamic" claim)

My Third and Final point: There is a CHOICE involved I haven't really done much Dave defense in this post, but his defense is very simple: He is literally physically unable to comprehend guilt or conscience. Dave didn't want to murder anyone in the first place, but it was Henry who fucked with his (literal) head so much to the point he stopped being able to feel guilt. He doesn't care about murder and doing wrong because he CAN'T care. You can't really let that reflect Dave as a character when he's really not in control of himself in the first place. Now with that, that doesn't change the fact he could certainly affect and hurt people, and it's fully up to Jack as to whether or not he wants to deal with this purple man's freakish life choices and hobbies or not. And that's honestly super dependent on the ending you decide to base Jack on. Most people see the 'canon' endings to be: Gnarly ending (DSAF 1) -> An ending (DSAF 2) -> Good ending (DSAF 3) Where in all of these, Jack DOES choose to deal with Dave and basically is completely cool with murder. You don't have to follow those endings if you don't want to, but that's just typically what the modern "Davesport" is known for, but its what I'm using for my defense (considering this is a defense of both fandom and canon Davesport.) Though as opposed with Henry and Dave- Dave had no choice. Henry only ever manipulated him into thinking he did, and Henry made sure to feed this whole 'we will be a family' ideal into Dave (who never had one) so that Dave would be terrified to lose him. Jack never manipulates Dave (when teamed up with him), and Dave never manipulates Jack (tho arguable in DSAF 1 as well). They stay with each other despite all of their issues, and I believe its due to some co-dependency (imo I think Jack is also obsessed with Dave just in a different way before DSAF 3) Which isn't healthy, but not...inherently abusive.

I believe my main three points kind of cover the most of why I dont consider Davesport to be inherently a bad ship, but like I said- if you don't like it, none of that matters anyways. You dont NEED a reason to like something, and I wont try to convince you why you should ship something because I like it. Just don't hate it just because of what someone else says-- 90% of the dsaf fandom aren't comshippers, and Davesport isn't gross or "toxic /neg" just because it's not healthy. I think "Don't fetishize/romanticize literal abuse like its normal or sexy" and "We should explore more complicated and unhealthy dynamics" can and SHOULD coincide with each other!!!! I think Davesport is great because of how bittersweet it is that these two people finally found solace and acceptance in each other but couldn't get past the self-sabotaging nature of what Henry turned them both into, ultimately making it impossible to work out forever. I think embracing the Davesport makes the (kind of aged) trilogy a lot more enjoyable of an experience and I DO encourage any davesport skeptics to keep an open mind. [Pretend I wrapped this up super nicely I can never do that--- Also this is open for conversation and/or debate, and also yada yada my bad if i said something randomly terrible I have extremely poor social skills lol let me know so I dont do it again yada yada] *Also if anyone doesnt know a situationship is (at least in the context im using it in ive heard other definitions for it but its not a real word so i actually dont care) when 2(or more) people basically treat eachother like lovers but they never communicate this outright and dont technically officially date but like they treat and commit to eachother like a partner would) (So its kind of what all those people who playfully flirt and call each other their spouses as a commited running joke are in)

#this might have gotten a little messy by the second half but i've spent so long on this the words have lost their meaning #could you believe this is my second draft #ill make a tldr...#dsaf #dayshift at freddy's #dave miller #jack kennedy #dayshift at freddy's 2 #dsaf dave #dsaf dave miller #dsaf jack #old sport #dsaf old sport #dsaf william afton #dayshift at freddy's jack #dayshift at freddy's 3 #dayshift at freddys

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thesoappope · 3 months

Text

My thoughts on Chaggie/ Charlie x Vaggie

Before we begin, no this isn't a "I hate chaggie post" and no I will not be hating on those who ship it either. Rather this is just my thoughts on chaggie at the moment.

So, I'm just gonna say it, Chaggie is my OTP. Not because it is perfection, but because it's in my opinion one of the most interesting relationship canon/noncanon, I love both the characters in the relationship, and any moment of intimacy (not just kisses and such but any intimacy that reads as romantic) is cute. And with that I want to talk about the relationship so far.

Now I've been seeing people say their relationship is toxic or unhealthy, and to that I say...that's a bit strong. Let me explain. So because hazbin is kinda speedrunning it's plot (which I understand bc limitations on episodes and seasons green lit) we don't get to deeply know all the characters and specifics on why they make certain choices and how they ended up the way they did so we have to rely on the broad and limited information provided in each episode.

Based on the 6 episodes released, we can tell Charlie is very optimistic, to a fault at times, passionate, a go getter with some direction, very empathetic, ablivious at times, and ultimanty wants to be a leader but lacks the confidence and authority (despite begin a princess bc we love the royal that doesn't know how to rule troupe, genuinely) to be one.

Vaggie on the other hand, is like Charlie, very kind, but isn't as willing to put faith in a person till they've proven they deserve it, protective, loyal, good intended, not very trusting, lacks confidence, and dependent on Charlie.

Now when you put these two together, while the two do help eachother supplement what the other lacks, whether through reassurance, doing what the other can't or doesn't want to do, or giving the other what they need at the moment, even if that isn't them, it's clear who relies more on the other. After it's revealed how Vaggie and Charlie met, it really reframes Vaggie's character. No longer is she just a slightly insecure girlfriend who just wants to make sure her partner is happy and is being supportive and good enough to her, she's now a character who has bad identity issues. I mean can you blame her?! Her whole life disappeared in an instance and started all over when Charlie found her. I imagine they haven't really been apart since then except for a couple hours maybe, but never for days or longer. And being with someone for so long especially in an unfamiliar place, of course you become attached to them. Add Charlie basically saving Vaggie's life, there's an imbalance there. A feeling of indebtedness even if Charlie never said Vaggie owed her bc wow that would be way out of character.

Now as I mentioned before, Charlie is a bit ablivious to certain things, she's especially ablivious to how vaggie feels and what she's going through. Now that's not entirely her fault, she didn't know Vaggie was an angel and that Vaggie may feel indebted to her for saving her life, but also it's clear Charlie doesn't understand social cues and again, because of her trust in Vaggie, she'd assume Vaggie would tell her anything that was wrong or bothering her since the contrary just isn't something established in there relationship. And if Vaggie didn't want to talk about something she'd say it, not lie. Like in all honesty I think Charlie won't be upset by Vaggie being an angel, but rather hiding it. Now it may sound like alot to ask of Vaggie, but again, Charlie is under the impression that Vaggie would be explicit about what to talk and not talk about. Also Charlie may be hurt because she may feel like Vaggie doesn't trust her enough or think she wouldn't accept her. So I get both sides.

So to me there relationship feels like any relationship, complicated. The relationship Itself isn't unhealthy, but some of the actions of the two involved aren't healthy or the best. Don't think I forgot about Charlie being pushy at times, I understand why she does it, but combine it with her abliviousness it's not so great. I definitely think Charlie and Vaggie can bounce back and maybe the two can have a moment together that helps the two be better together and separate. Which brings me to another thing I'd like to talk about.

My hope for Chaggie in the future is this. In the next episode, the two give eachother space, and they hangout with people in the hotel. I like the idea of Vaggie, Husk, and or Angel hanging out. Charlie and Lucifer or Charlie, Sir Pentious, Husk, or Angel spending time with her. Then half way or 3 quarters through the episode Vaggie and Charlie have a moment together after talking and hangingout with the others, talk about it/maybe apologize, make up, and have there first kiss in the show (other gestures like their foreheads touching or noses touching or a combination of gestures work as well). Then of course setting up for the 8th episode.

Another thought I had, is also the two trying to act as if nothing happened, they continue with there plans with the hotel, then when everyone notices the obvious tension, while they want to prepare for the extermination, they also want to figureout/help Vaggie and Charlie get through what ever happened. Then I imagine they either try doing the exercises and such Charlie plans but secretly use it as a way to help Charlie and Vaggie, in the end Vaggie or Charlie blow up. Shit goes down and then they make up. Or it's still not working so they try getting the two away from eachother by saying they need help with stuff, talking to them, then the two make up. Or one last one I swear, Vaggie or Charlie say to take a break from this. Everyone does, Charlie and Vaggie talk or argue. Walk different ways, Vaggie stays at the hotel and Charlie leaves the hotel. After the two end up figuring shit out, I like to think Charlie got into some shit, Vaggie saves her, they talk as they deal with the trouble Charlie's in, make up, and have an intimate moment.

Now the last thing I wat to say is kinda related but not, so if you came just for Chaggie you can leave. Anyways, with the current state of chaggie (especially with the lack of typical romantic intimacy) I noticed people shipping Charlie x Emily. And while yes I see it, personally I don't ship it just because they've only met in episode 6, they're too similar, and in my opinion, I like them as friends. With that being said, I do like them together so long as Charlie is still with Vaggie. Like I just love Charlie and Vaggie together so much, I don't want them to split. So either I'd have them as a throuple, or Charlie is dating them both but Emily and Vaggie are just friends. Either one is a pretty interesting shipping dynamic and great for fanfiction. Also just to clarify, I'm not hating on Emily x Charlie, it's just not one I'm strong about. So if you like it, more power to you. And you know what, I'll probably still look at content of it anyways cause even if it isn't my fav it's still cute.

Uh anyways, I hope you enjoyed my word vomit and thoughts? Idk how to end this...uh goodbye!

#hazbin hotel #charlie morningstar #vaggie #hazbin hotel charlie #hazbin hotel vaggie #charlie x vaggie #chaggie #hazbin hotel emily #charlie x emily #vaggie x charlie x emily #shipping

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glitchadeli · 1 month

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PSA: Shipping & Fandom Culture.

I've been pretty quiet for the most part but this topic has been eating at me for a long while now so I wanna speak on the matter. I'm WELL aware that being in a fandom / fandom culture is toxic and has it's issues. Basically every fandom has it's problems, which is expected because like.. there's so many kinds of people on this earth. We're all bound to have our own thoughts, feelings and opinions. Everyone has a right to want to share those kinds of things, but you know what's really unnecessary? Shitting on a ship so much, saying that you want a certain character to DIE, and overall just being a petty person about it. It's one thing to not like a ship, but going around and doing that is so not necessary. I've seen it in so many fandoms it's insane. I'm well aware GumRob is not everyone's cup of tea. I know very well that Pokeshipping is shit on because of Serena. I've seen the fights in the Paw Patrol fandom over the "Skase" ship. I've seen so many Oc x Canon artists get ridiculed for ever 'daring to put their oc with someone in the canon'. I've seen.. a lot. Been on the internet a long time. Just let people enjoy their ships. (so long as it's not a harmful one, which let me be clear, GumRob is NOT a harmful ship.) For example; I've outwardly said I don't like JulRob (not calling it the other name.) but here's the thing. When I see JulRob art, I don't start commenting how 'bad' it is or shit on the artists' art of it. None of that. I simply scroll and move on with my life. Why should I make someone feel bad for their ship if it makes them happy? Why is it so necessary for you to feel the need to shit on that when you don't need to. I don't understand. I will NEVER tell someone that I dislike/hate their ship if it makes them happy. Hell, if an artist I follow posts a ship I don't like, but the art is still good? I'll tell them their art is good. You CAN compliment something without agreeing with it. Lmao, it's not hard. And also, it's not "fake" to do that. You can be nice to someone and their art even if you don't like the ship itself. I've seen cute Penball art and complimented it, even if Penball isn't my main ship. I'm not being 'fake'. It's not hard to be nice. It's really not. If you're an adult and you go around doing that? Grow up. Hell, block the tags if you need to. Stop being so miserable that you feel the need to spread your misery elsewhere. Go look in a mirror and grow the fuck up. 'scuse my French but I just.. I don't understand. (I mean, I get it, it's the internet, it's inevitable.) Which yeah, that's another thing, I'm well aware that the internet has always been like this. Fandoms are always like this. Ship wars are so common it's not even funny. I can't think of 1 fandom that doesn't have at least 1 shipwar, if not multiple. I know that me complaining about this really isn't going to change anything, but I hope the message at least gets across. Let people be happy, how fucking hard is that? It's not, so grow up. TDLR; Stop shitting on people's ships that aren't harmful and let people be happy :) It's not that hard.

#vent #needed to get this off my chest #Idc how people feel about gumrob #it makes me happy and I will continue to draw it #same with DarDog #it's a newer ship for me and i'm sure eventually itll get shit on but idc it's not harmful #let people be happy #stop being miserable and trying to spread that everywhere #if your ship makes you happy keep drawing it #and don't pay mind to shitty people #sorry for the harsh language but this needed to be said

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am-i-the-asshole-official · 4 months

Note

AITA for arguing with someone over ships?

🧀⛵ so i can find this later

Yes, this is ship discourse AITA #294729472 you can scroll away, english isn't my first language, my apologies.

So I (16M (But 13-14 at the time)) am in a very niche fandom. As in, we didn't have any new content for the past 5 years and media is old af (2013), very few fans, most of us know each other already.

I used to have these mutuals Cheese (Not their real name) (around my age i think?? I can't remember) and Breadstick (Not his real name) (18M).

We all had our little ships, ok? I like the little (dumbass golden retriever boy) x (badass traumatized man) ship, Cheese liked the little (badass traumatized man) x (literally the same thing but evil and abusive) and Breadstick liked both ships.

I met Breadstick before meeting Cheese so we were already friends before i met Cheese. I thought "Cool, another person likes this little niche thing i'm hyperfixated on!" So we became mutuals.

I didn't anticipate that we would argue about ships, but oh well. So, i'm a very chill person regarding ships, literally any, although i do have NOTPs, i'm not really toxic about my hatred, i just go "Ah, not my thing" and scroll away not without blocking the person, but really nothing personal and no hard feelings, i can perfectly be friends with someone who loves my notp.

In fact, that was the case with Cheese. They shipped my NOTP, like A LOT. But I was okay with it, i mean these are just characters and all we're doing is being silly. I didn't take this THAT seriously. However, when I seemed to talk about my ship, Cheese seemed uncomfortable in some way.

When I was talking about my fankid (call me cringe idc) of my OTP, Cheese got very confused and asked who was i talking about. Breadstick came in and introduced my fankid to them, since he knew about it before. Cheese just started being rude, literally saying swear words (Not against them but, the context didn't really call for it? No one was being mean or mad), saying, and i quote as best as i can, "I don't know what the fuck made you think i knew who the hell [Fankid] was".

I got very mad about it, so i privately dm'ed Breadstick about Cheese's attitude. We began trash talking about them, which, i admit was a very trashy thing to do and definitely asshole material™.

Reason why may i be the asshole: over time, Breadstick just started complaining a lot about Cheese, and I could honestly agree, it came to the point of us disliking them to some degree but not telling them and not breaking the mutual, that could be considered two faced behavior.

This was partly influenced because of another incident. So Cheese and Breadstick where rambling about an OT3 (3 person ship) they had in common, basically sharing ideas and stuff. I thought it would be fun and went "Hey, I have an OT3 too, maybe i should post about it too". So I went and posted about it, but Cheese felt very uncomfortable with that, since basically my OT3 was exactly like Cheese's OT3 but one character is different, "basically".

They said "You have your thing, let US have ours". Felt bad and honestly, maybe i shouldn't have intruded their ot3 rambling. I didn't expect such negative reaction out of them.

In other occasions they complained about me posting a little too much about my ship, even though they did the same thing with theirs. And they also had a mutual that said "If you ship [this character] you suck and i fucking hate you. [character] is too abusive to be shipped with anyone and you can't just make an AU, that would just change him as a character completely" which, dear god, that language wasn't needed, right?. And despite that crazy person saying that, Cheese agreed with their take, despite literally shipping the character in question with another one. And abusively too, which like you do you, lord knows i do that too, but agreeing with a take like that while doing exactly what it is complaining about is weird. On the other side, that person wasn't my mutual, so it's unrealistic of me to expect Cheese to control their mutuals over me, Cheese can mutual whoever they want, but i can still be weirded out right?

That is without including them telling other people to kill themselves over shipping, so it was clear that Cheese took this shipping thing seriously while me and Breadstick to some degree didn't. Honestly another reason why i might be an asshole, clearly they felt their otp was personal and me not liking it + ignoring it caused a bad environment, mala mía, but what else could i have done?

So, clearly Cheese is kind of an asshole to some degree. But i think what makes ME an asshole too is when I trash talked behind their back and cut them off way later than i should've. And also, i guess i shoved my ship down their throat taking by how mad they were about it? I didn't do it intentionally though and i could definitely say they did the same thing too when 80% of the fandom and character tags was them posting about their ship. Again, small niche fandom for old unpopular media, we are keeping it alive ourselves.

What are these acronyms?

#aita #am i the asshole #ship discourse #posts that make me crave one of those lil cheese dip breadstick snack packs #which i have not eaten in roughly uhhhh at least a decade and a half #but the taste. you never forget that taste

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im-a-hoping-beetch · 4 months

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In all honesty, idk what happened with the fandom recently for it to suddenly shit out a ton of crappy takes in ATLA most especially for Zutara. I often find myself defending Zutara because a lot of its antis say the most racist and sexist stuff against it. I'm not even a Zutara fan! I'm a rareshipper.

Can't just antis simply say they don't like Zutara and move on to enjoying their own ships instead? No more stupid holier art thou morality takes that just backfire on their faces.

If they want discourse, then use canon material NOT HEADCANONS, FANONS, OR FANFICS as "evidence" to back up their takes. Antis that do that makes my head spin in exasperation. Then you point that out they start whining how you hurt their feelibgs and get all offended as a "minority".

Actually, let's focus on that last bit. It's pretty rancid too how sometimes they pretend to be part of the "minority" so they can use it as a shield for themselves when their bad behavior gets called out. In fact, this tactic hurts the actual minorities who have valid concerns about Zutara. They get drowned out by all the insanity toxic shippers say and get lumped in with them.

Well, with the new live-action coming, there has obviously, been a revival, making the fandom way much more active. Which leads to people having more time to pay attention to the show and all its intricacies.

This is where ship wars come into play. And in all honesty, atla’s ship wars have definitely left a legacy in a way I don’t think we’ll have to ever witness. With the creators perpetuous jabs at zutara solidifying antis need to hate on it and the fans, fuelling the whole thing to another level. To this day whenever something avatar related gets announced or released you start to see a revival of a not so dead ship war. And while they (probably, not sure) aren’t as brutal as they used to be, they have took another turn, with this faux-progressivism being used to fear monger zutara shippers as well as casual listeners about the ship’s legitimacy. I recommend @i-d-e-g-a-f ‘s post about it to get more insight.

On my part, if I were to pin point the moment where this faux- progressivism started taking space in a lot of anti-zutara takes, I’d say that the atla renaissance isn’t innocent for this phenomenon happening. You need to understand the context in which atla’s release on Netflix took place in. One where the blm movement took the entire world by storm. Resulting in people not having the reservations they’ve probably had in the past when it came to talking about racial issues. This was followed by the emergence of numerous movements involving similar cases (not identical, tho). As well as media and the people consuming said media being ready to offer commentary on and call out harmful depictions of racial minorities as well as the rethorics they carried.

Suddenly, anyone and everyone could offer their piece of mind on harm being caused to racial minorities. And while good, it also came with its downside.

When you take into account this context, I think it exacerbated the already existing phenomenon of people saying things in order to put on this front of being good and virtuous, yet failing or simply not wanting to realize how these things are perpetuating the very harm they claim they want to undo. You know, people perceiving and claiming zutara to be a colonized-colonizer ship. As well as comparing katara to Pocahontas, when talking about these two. Which, if these people actually cared about progress, they would know how incredibly racist and sexist it is to make that comparison.

When it comes to antis obsession with hating on zutara, I think it stems from a certain insecurity. You gotta understand that unlike any other non-canon ship, zutara could’ve legitimately been canon. It was constantly talked about in the writers room, many of the team members seriously considering it (head writers, voice actors etc..) Hence why, the creators felt the need to throw numerous jabs (ie. the ember island play, (2008) comic-con) at the ship and more specifically, its fans. Since they themselves were insecure. @burst-of-iridescent perfectly explains it in this post.

#zutara #zuko #katara #anti kataang #anti bryke #atla fandom critical #atla #avatar the last airbender

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lovemyromance · 2 months

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Let's talk about the dreaded pliant bones argument in ACOTAR

First of all, I don't ever want to see this stupid argument anywhere, especially after HOFAS. Second of all, none of the Archeron sisters are Illyrian so they do not have Illyrian anatomy suitable for childbirth. And yet, we see Feysand and Nessian as mates. So it's not like SJM even cared about that herself.

Then ACOSF happens, and oh no, c-sections don't apparently seem to exist and it becomes a BIG DEAL™ that Nesta changed only her own body and Feyre's body to have Illyrian anatomy.

People have been latching onto this argument like Rose on the goddamn Titanic, anything to cling to their sinking ship.

Let's not forget that Elain & Nesta had their bodies changed already once before, against their will. Why the hell would Nesta change Elain's body without obtaining consent after that traumatic experience? That would be a gross violation of bodily autonomy.

And Nesta was shown how to change the bodies. Which could hint that she still knows how, should a similar situation arise again.

But none of that even matters! What matter is that it's 2024 and we are still saying a woman can't be with the man she loves because she can't give him biological children. That is the crux of the argument Gw*nriels always try to skip around and say without saying. Like "oh no!! She can't have his babies!! Ship sank. It's over. The End."

As if a woman should be reduced down to her ability to procreate. This is not the middle ages people! Wake up!

Also, not to mention, even if we use that disgusting logic - The only other female in this series that is mentioned to have Illyrian anatomy is Emerie. Are we shipping Azriel with Emerie now? Because she can FOR SURE have his babies, if that's all that matters. Who cares about her own desires and personality and sexual preferences if she can have illyrian kids??

Now let's consider what people have been latching onto:

Gwyn...is flexible and adapts to training moves quickly. That's why Nesta commented she had "pliant bones", that's IT. She is part nymph and "has different anatomy than high fae", sure, but is that anatomy in any way, Illyrian? Water nymphs don't have Illyrian leathery wings either so I don't understand why insisting Gwyn has "pliant bones" is in any way endgame ship material. Why would her half-water nymph heritage give her the anatomy to birth a full grown illyrian-winged baby??

And then there's the cowards that use this argument by hiding behind SJM herself by saying "Well, I hate it too, but SJM is *kinda* known for writing like this and her characters are all male-dominated, fae-territorial blah blah, she is *kinda* hinting at endgame because the womb thing–" NO. No.

Don't hide. Tell the room exactly what you are saying. Which is the exact same misogynistic spiel as above, where you try to use gross medieval logic to justify your mf fictional ship, but you hide your faces when you say it. Because you know it's wrong, but you're still not above using that as "evidence" in your ship's favor.

I've even said before, I don't care what SJM says. If I don't like a misogynistic take, I am not using that as evidence in any capacity for any reason.

I'm not even being biased by my preferred ship. I genuinely just want people to stop using this argument because it's hurtful to women as a whole. Ship wars are fine, but ffs, when did we get to the point where we are pitting two women against each other based on whose uterus is more suitable??

And before you even say "I just have a problem because I ship Elriel" No. No.

It's about these kinds of cheap arguments in general. I have also never been one to go off saying how Gwyn can't be a valid love interest because her past SA trauma - That argument is also archaic and hurtful. I've never once used it. I don't like seeing it.

Can we just - Not do it? The only reason such arguments have gained traction is because they're constantly echoed by the toxic sides of the fandom online. It's gross and I don't want to be a part of a group that condones that.

Ship who you want, but let's just be respectful about it. We should not have to resort to cheap arguments like the above.

#elain #pro elain #elriel #gwyneth berdara #pro gwyn #azriel

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deripmaver · 8 months

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Which is worse, rape or murder? - Or, should Casca have died during the Eclipse?

Unlike most of my meta posts, this is one I'm making as a direct critique of a specific take I've seen. It's similar to my meta about apostle Casca in that regard, where I want to look at a specific idea and why I dislike it, as opposed to wanting to explore my thoughts on an aspect of canon. To be clear, this is only something I do if I've seen a take a bunch of times, enough so I know it's not a one-off. It's also not something I do because I want to engage in discussion with the people who've said whatever the take is, it's something I do in case other people who agree with me might be interested in a meta post that's more in line with their viewpoint.

I provide this disclaimer because, as I've said a few times now, the idea that it's the better choice to have Casca die during the eclipse is one that I just really dislike, and I make that preeeeetty fuckin clear. I can't control who sees this or who comments, but I did think I should make my stance explicit.

Berserk fandom is an absolute treasure trove of bad takes about rape and sexual assault. Considering the seriousness with which the manga takes rape, despite it's sometimes quite dodgy framing and portrayal, the fact that the fandom is Like That is fully a testament to cishet men's inability to consume media without turning into a brainless amoeba of toxicity.

I have to say, though, what shocked me the most was that this particular take, that Casca should have just died during the eclipse, was not from the dudebro side of fandom ('cause if she had they couldn't make their silly little "casca enjoyed it" jokes).

I'm coming right out of the gate with my opinion, which is a firm no, Casca should not have died during the eclipse, and the story would be weaker if she had. I'm going to presume during this analysis that the people who say this assume that her death would be instead of her rape, as opposed to her being raped and then dying, which would be... Horrific. Even more horrific than canon, lol.

I do have sympathy for some of the people who wish she had died, and in a way I understand, though I vehemently disagree. Some of the posts with this POV sound almost traumatized as they proclaim I wish she would have died, it would have been better. As this is something I've only noticed in the tumblr fandom side of things, where most people are women, I think this comes from women readers feeling furious and sick about one of the most vile rape scenes out there. In some ways its intentionally vile, in others - ie how grotesquely sexualized it is - it's unintentional. Then, of course, she continues to suffer in her disabled, infantilized trauma state. I hear these readers wanting to shout at Miura that he should have just killed her off rather than force her, and us, through reading that. It would have been kinder.

I have... Far less sympathy for others. There's a side of fandom that simply does not care about Casca (in a different way than the dudebros who don't care about her despite gushing about how she's peak tomboy waifu). It's amazing the veneer of progressivism these people put on as they say that Casca should have died, because she did not contribute to the narrative before the eclipse, and she certainly hasn't after. Going to get even spicier for a second and point out fandom's long history of wanting female characters dead because they get in the way of mlm ships, and how I think this is SOMETIMES simply another manifestation of it.

To be fully fucking clear, I do NOT think that being a grffgts shipper (censored so this doesn't show up in the tag LOLLLLL) precludes being shitty about Casca. I think tumblr's demographics, and those demographics' typical shipping preferences, mean that grffgts is naturally going to dominate. By simple statistics, most of the people whose opinions I hate are going to be grffgts shippers. Same with most of the people's opinions I like on tumblr tbh. I do, however, think it's prudent to point out old school fandom misogyny, and how I personally feel it's showing up in the fandom, and also point out that it pisses me off that Casca dying during the eclipse is at all presented as the least misogynistic outcome.

I'm also going to say now that this is firmly being kept in the realm of fiction. In real life, there are horrific discussions about how being a victim of rape defiles you for life, and that it's better to die without the "shame" of being raped than live with it. While I have to be blunt it's difficult for me to separate some of the discussion of Casca dying during the eclipse from that anti-survivor bias I see in real life just because ~we live in a society~, I in general think this sentiment is coming from a place of simply analyzing, narratively, which outcome is less misogynistic given how the rape in canon is portrayed.

Would it narratively have been better for Casca to have died? What about the impact of her death versus her current storyline?

First, I think I need to outline my interpretation of the eclipse rape. I don't think that the decision to have Griffith rape Casca was Miura simply being a misogynistic cishet dude who threw in rape for the hell of it. I also don't think it's OOC. Again, there's much to critique in how it's drawn, but not in the fact that it happened. Griffith, in his moments of feeling out of control and powerless, uses sexual advances to reassert his control over the situation - see Charlotte, or the wagon scene with Casca. A distaste for sexual violence committed by his enemies doesn't mean Griffith is incapable of wielding sexual violence as a weapon himself. In real life, there's a paradox where rape committed by political or social enemies is seen as the worst crime one could ever commit, while the mundane rape committed as a consequence of patriarchy is excusable and the victims should be blamed and shamed. Did Miura have the gender studies acumen to think about that when writing? I dunno, but neither does anyone who thinks he didn't.

I also think it's supposed to establish his actions during the eclipse as fully over the moral event horizon. Without it, it's easy to ask if ultimately, Griffith's decision to sacrifice his followers to a cruel death is justified to create a perfect utopia. With it, it establishes Griffith as acting fully on cruel, malicious impulse in moments of emotional turmoil, which puts his future utopia in jeopardy. I can't be the only one who sees Falconia as a ticking time bomb. Of course, this doesn't mean he needed to rape Casca, but simply that I think it was necessary to his character to do something that crossed that moral line. He could have raped Guts I suppose. Killerbambi has entered the chat.

While I think this might sound strange, I actually think it's immensely validating to have a character who is a victim not just of rape, but of rape committed by someone she already knew. That's genuinely unique in media on the whole, which plays into that paradox I mentioned earlier - in real life, the vast majority of assaults are committed by someone the victim knew. Having the story surround the continual, horrific trauma of betrayal, of having to watch the person who hurt you move on while trauma keeps you in horrible stasis is almost so realistic it's... uncomfortable. Painful. Hard to read.

There's no greater purpose to what happened to Casca. She didn't grow from it, instead she regressed.

Her general lack of agency post-eclipse is much critiqued in the fandom and like. Fucking yeah fair LOLLLLLL BUT ALSO... But also. Fandom on the whole can be so cruel about traumatized female characters, like there's no way they can do trauma "right." In Casca's case, her lack of agency is turned into a reason she should simply have been killed off instead, as though there aren't so many survivors who, while not as literally as she does, retreat into a shell of themselves and are frozen with trauma as the world begins to pass them by. Of course, the critique would be that she's not a real person, she's a female character written in a misogynistic way by a man, but I personally think this overstates Miura's issues with his portrayal of rape. To me, it presents what they think are his biases as justification for their own biases.

Time and time again, I see survivors discuss feeling validated by Casca's trauma response after being assaulted. Even the parts of the rape scene that I vehemently dislike, such as the hyper-focus on Casca's body and the physical reactions she's having, I've seen more than one person say they felt validated because they too had an unwanted arousal response during an assault. I'll still critique the scene, but regardless of if this was Miura's intention, its impact is clear.

I'll again plug this article by Jackson P. Brown, How Berserk’s Casca challenges the myth of the “Strong Black Woman.” Just to show a quote from it:

All of the action of the story after Conviction Arc is in service of restoring Casca's mind. During Conviction Arc and after, Casca has groups of women who love and protect her, with women as her source of safety. Guts is single mindedly focused on bringing her back, putting his body on the line again and again to protect her and restore her. I wondered about including Guts here because I'm sure I'll get some anon about the Beast of Darkness, which again fair LOL. I have complicated feelings on that, but mostly I think the importance the narrative puts on her mind and her protection is touching, and I think this outweighs how the negative things apparently mean that she should have died.

Her story and trauma, despite its flaws, is shockingly realistic and validating to so many people. She's also a key narrative component post-eclipse, and not just ~for Guts' manpain~ or as a helpless plot device, her story is her own. I've written about Elaine as a character and what she represents, but in brief, Casca doesn't disappear after the eclipse. Miura wrote Elaine with these moments where Casca comes to the surface, and while I wish we had more of her POV I think you can look at how she's coping from how Elaine reacts to the world around her.

I also think it's necessary to have Casca at the Hill of Swords. There's Guts, who Griffith torments in the way only a bitter ex can, and Rickert, who doesn't know what happened the day of the eclipse, but I think Casca is the key component in that scene that cuts through all of Griffith's posturing and Guts' anger. She is there, making the real, human cost of what Griffith did during the eclipse unignorable in a way that no other character could. It's one thing for Guts to be furious with him and Rickert ignorant, it's another to have someone who loved him so innocently and dearly trembling just at the sight of him. Let's not pretend that the depth of betrayal in this scene would be the same if you swapped her for, say, Judeau.

It's funny, Miura is quoted as saying that his initial reason for keeping Casca alive was to provide Guts an ever-burning flame of vengeance, an eternal reminder of everything that he lost during the eclipse. What's wound up happening, on a meta level, is that Casca provides the reader a constant reminder of what happened during the eclipse. As more and more focus is given to her PTSD with her revival, the cruelty with which Griffith acted (and continues to act) becomes harder and harder to ignore. It becomes more difficult to push it aside as just bad, misogynistic writing.

And also, quite simply, I like narratives about trauma recovery, and therefore I'll always find Casca's story worth telling despite my frustration with a lot of it. It's absolutely wild to me that for how often I see the fandom complain about her being "fridged" they think it would have been better to see her ACTUALLY fridged, no chance of coming back at all, just dead to fuel Guts' revenge arc. Would it really be better to have her be just another dead girlfriend? Really?

That's really what it comes down to. I like Casca as a character, and I want her to have lived. The people who wish she had died, many of them simply don't like her as a character. Not all, particularly in that first group I mentioned at the start, but many. Everyone has their preferences of course, but I don't think I need to respect when someone thinks a character has so little influence on the narrative that they should have just died, especially if that character is Casca.

If Casca had died during the eclipse, it would not have been a good death. It would not have been brave, or triumphant, or worth anything for her as a character. Judeau died to protect Casca, but even his death was not brave, it was just sad. That's the whole point of the eclipse.

To have Casca die that way would be a disservice to her as a character, far moreso than to have her struggle on as a traumatized victim of sexual violence. That's genuinely what I believe.

#berserk #casca #casca berserk #berserk meta #casca the og victim of yaoi IN CANON

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nordickies · 8 months

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Welcome back! I missed your art a lot. I was scrolling through your posts and saw one post where you said that you have an unpopular dynamic for SuFin. If your dynamic for SuFin is based on their history together, I might have the same unpopular dynamic as you too.

I'm not a fan of the fanon SuFin that is perfectly wholesome and "the ideal relationship" because it ignores how history would have affected their relationship, and also has the uncomfortable implication that Finland enjoyed being under Swedish rule. I think that in the modern day, Finland would still struggle with feeling insecure and too competitive with Sweden. Sweden would be quite oblivious to Finland's feelings and offend him without realizing it. But that's my Swedish perspective on their relationship. What are your thoughts about their dynamic?

Thank you! Happy to see you as well! And yes, you're pretty close to how I view them! This is going to be a long one, so my answer will be under the cut <3

As a disclaimer; I will not judge or shame anyone for enjoying SuFin as the perfect domestic husbands with a dog and kids. Heal that inner child desperately clinging to happy fictional families, hehe. Besides, unless you ship a totally random crackship in this show, every single relationship is going to be flawed based on historical context. And at the end of the day, SuFin isn't even the worst case of this issue, so you can ship them without worrying about being "problematic" (whatever that word means nowadays). I'm just saying this because some people like to claim that SuFin is so inherently toxic, and I strongly disagree with that! There is no right or wrong way to enjoy these characters, and you can apply as much or as little historical context to the characters as you like. Have fun with them!

To me, ignoring all the historical context behind Finland's and Sweden's relationship would be impossible, though. We're talking about 600-700 years of living together and the additional 200+ years as separate countries. And I love overthinking things. Whether or not you like SuFin as a ship, you can't exactly ignore their shared past. I see the Nordics as a found family above all else. I really don't ship them with each other (but I don't judge those who do). Sweden and Finland are just kind of tricky because of the way the canon portrays their relationship. It's impossible to see it as purely brotherly. But I don't vibe with them being lovey-dovey husbands either. Best friends, sure, but then again, Finland and Sweden would have a different dynamic than Sweden has with Norway and Denmark. Or the dynamic Finland has with Estonia.

The way I see it is that they used to grow up as one, meaning that they both acted as the personification of the same land. Sweden was just in charge of the West, and Finland was in charge of the East. They both had similar responsibilities, jobs they were expected to do, and the people they were expected to obey. They really did everything together. And they were everything to each other because sometimes it felt like it was them against the rest of the world. And honestly, I don't see Finland as a subordinate to Sweden during those times. He was just extremely passive and ignored most of the time. But Finland's interests usually aligned with Sweden's, and he had complete trust in his ability to run things for both of them. But as time went on, his ability to trust was put to the test many times, which ultimately would cause problems in their relationship.

Eventually, they were separated by forces outside their control, and they had to figure out who they were without one another. And it must have been a traumatic situation for both of them. Until then, they didn't have to think about such things; they had always been together. But while Sweden lost his best friend/partner, Finland lost his entire identity. Obviously, as time went on, they both went in very different directions, which made them grow apart quite drastically. It definitely wasn't easy, and the pain caused by that situation made them even butt heads a few times. Ultimately, they made peace with it and could be friends again. Actually, they really needed that separation because otherwise, they would have never evolved as individuals. And their break made their relationship healthier and more equal. It just came with growing pains.

And yes, I agree with what you said. Because Finland has always had the shorter end of the stick, he feels a bit jealous. In his eyes, Sweden always got it so much easier. Also, figuring out his own identity was way harder for him once they got separated. He depended on Sweden a lot more. Fin did truly feel let down by him in the end, which made his relationship with Sweden for the following decades even saltier. For most of his life, he was seen as Sweden's eastern sidekick, so he sometimes tries to desperately create some distance between Swe and himself. He wants to be seen as his own person, and show his capabilities, which manifests in him being extremely stubborn. Ironically, he constantly compares himself to Sweden because that's how he measures his success. If Sweden can do this thing, he should too. And that's why Finland will get very passionate about any chance to be better than Sweden at something. In his eyes, it's the only way to measure his worth.

Sweden, on the other hand, can be oblivious to Finland's need to have his own thing. He doesn't get what's the issue since they used to be inseparable for so long. It's not malicious, but just a bit ignorant. He doesn't have similar experiences, so he doesn't really know how to relate to what Fin is going through. In some cases, Sweden can act annoying in Finland's eyes, being a bit patronizing or not understanding Finland's feelings. One moment, they might be fine, joking around - but then the next, Finland requires some time alone. It's confusing, but Sweden tries to understand it. He has learned that it's just better to give him his space and definitely don't try to solve Fin's problems. Swe has to kind of know his place with that one, even if it can be frustrating. Occasionally, he finds Finland's competitiveness and excitement over small wins a bit ridiculous, but he plays along. At the end of the day, Sweden understands why Finland has such mixed feelings about him. And he knows that in the past, he could have done way better, and he has lots of regrets about it.

It's definitely Finland who has the problems and insecurities in their relationship. Like, even if you think about the canon (which is rich coming from me), Finland is always clarifying that he's not affiliated with Sweden in a romantic sense while simultaneously defending everything Sweden does, telling everyone that they have misunderstood his sensitive persona. And Sweden silently suffers on the side, not wanting to push his boundaries or make Finland uncomfortable.

But I don't want to make it seem like they don't get along - they absolutely do! Maybe being ridiculously close at times, communicating almost telepathically at this point. Not to mention their vast cooperation in work-related settings. So, whether or not Finland wants to create some distance - he can't. He always finds himself glued to Sweden's side, looking for warmth. And no matter how much Finland's competitiveness tires Sweden, he can't help but admire the persistence. Maybe they're one of the things they both actually deep down like about each other; who knows. There are no hard feelings between these two, though sometimes, the old pain and confusion might pop up in unexpected situations. But in the end, they always work through it.

I think that Finland does legitimately love Sweden, but due to their shared history, he gets uncomfortable with how others might view their relationship. It would be fine if it were literally anyone else than Sweden he had these feelings for. I can see them having some kind of romantic relationship, but it would be very private and a topic they don't like publically discussing. That doesn't mean they're the best at hiding it, though.

Anyway, that's how I view it. I have to say, I do like SuFin as a ship nowadays. It's cute! And a source of endless possibilities. I just don't like reducing Finland and Sweden to "the married couple," especially when my blog is about all of the Nordics. There is so much more to discuss about these two, so many sides people rarely explore. That's why I like to focus on their lives and personalities outside of their romantic relationship. It could also be because I'm not a passionate shipper overall. Or because it's hard to find non-SuFin content out there. But, even with that said, exploring SuFin from time to time is fine. Discussing headcanons for them is fine! They're allowed to exist as a ship in this blog. But I don't want it to be the only thing they're defined by. Let them have a life outside of each other! <3

#hws sweden #hws finland #sufin #headcanons #culture/history stuff #nordickies nationverse au

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