#that's just how I conceptualize their dynamic now | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

penaltyboxboxbox · 19 hours

Note

i love ur charlos parents au sm!! im not requesting art or anything if u dont feel like drawing (tho youre a phenomenal artist!!), but i was wondering if you wanted to share any more details abt the au? i thinks its so cute haha and would love to know more. also hope ur having a great day!

I LOVE THIS AU TOO i do want to draw more i always have ideas for it.... but i will gladly ramble about my lore ive developed

1. is this an mpreg au even i do not know or care to know. yes these are their biological children who look like them and share their genes but how did we get here ill leave that to you to assume. either way both of them definitely wanted big families and even tho i draw them with 2 kids i think they want at least 4..... charles wants a daughter and carlos says the same but secretly he only wants sons. hes picturing a future football team and also doesn't understand women conceptually

2. i actually think carlos3 was an accident child and charlos get shotgun married over it. its part of the reason why theres a bit of a gap between their first and second child. they had to like reassess and settle stuff after kind of having to get their shit together and make honest men of each other.

3. they get divorced at some point during all this mainly due to SAINZ SENIOR PRESSURE. probably while carlos3 is like highschool age. charles talks so much shit and then proceeds to get emotional like I SHOULDNT TALK ABOUT YOUR FATHER THIS WAY vs carlos like. bro tries to just act like they are normal regular friends now like man thats not how this works....charles always plays cool irl but is annoyed as hell underneath. very good coparents though....always at all the events together. when the kids stay at sainz family evil mansion for the summer they come back to charles so villainous and feral. he has to go supernanny on them...

4. charlos DO get back together after like 10 years of being separated lol. and yeah there were lots of messy nights out and not quite reconciliations throughout that time. very confusing family dynamic but theyre happy at the end

5. carlos3 grows up to be a guy who just kind of piggybacks onto whatever business endeavors his dads are doing. ultimate nepotism hire. hes not bad at what hes doing he just never really found that passion. his passion is like.....posting peaky blinders quotes on instagram. hes kind of a failson but hes also the perpetual baby for charlos so they just...coddled him too much his whole life djhdksndksbs.... younger son herve becomes a FASHION MODEL!!!! hes beautiful gorgeous and also a perfect nepo child so he's ripe for this career....he walks runways in paris

thats all i can think of for now thankssssss ily

#ask #parents au

41 notes · View notes

waitineedaname · 5 months

Text

not romantic or platonic but a secret third thing (bonded pair)

#I think more character dynamics should be described as bonded pairs #are two characters very attached to each other in a way that's hard to define? bonded pair.#are two characters rarely seen in a scene without each other? bonded pair #do two characters get anxious when separated? bonded pair #I don't mean this in a weird way I mean it in the way cats will be bonded when at a shelter together or something #this can apply to so many characters I think #regardless of whether they're romantic or platonic or whatever #most necrocav duos in tlt for example #and too many duos in fma to count #like obviously knowing me im thinking about greedling #but also the elric brothers or mustang and hawkeye #but also. many of the side characters.#doing my massive spreadsheet (almost done btw!) has shown to me that jerso and zampano are almost always in the same scene #that's a bonded pair babey #brosh and ross too. to me.#anyway. someone once left the tags ''bonded pair do not separate'' on a greedling post of mine and i haven't stop thinking about it #that's just how I conceptualize their dynamic now #two cats that have to be adopted together or else they'll start destroying furniture

863 notes · View notes

prolibytherium · 9 months

Text

Absolutely death gripped clenched trying not to comment on reductive posts on ancient greek homosexual relationships

#It is neither wholly '0mg two gay guys in love!!' and 'I am humiliating and debasing a lower man by making a woman out of him'#There's heavy elements of that in how they conceptualized penetrator vs penetrated but the erastes (lover/protector) and eromenos (beloved)#relationship was significantly more complex than that #Like it is conceptualized as sort of a mentor/mentee relationship and a positive element for an adolescent's development #It was the subject of romantic plays and you get things like people in antiquity in heated debates over who is the #erastes and who is the eromenos between Achilles and Patroclus (to better depict them in plays)#The bottom line is more 'the socially accepted m/m relationships were (what we would now consider) an adult and a child #(or young man) with the age difference being a fundamental element to the dynamic.'#And more broadly being penetrated in sex assigned a 'lower' or 'womanly' role and it would not be conventionally accepted #for an older/more socially powerful man to recieve penetration (which certainly DID happen though)#So absolutely a moment in the history of male homosexuality and not something to just go 'ew ew bad evil ewwie' about but also #not something you want to project modern conceptions of LGBT identity upon #Also we know relatively little about relationships between women in ancient Greece due to lack of sources due to being a #highly patriarchal culture but we can't actually know that they did not involve similar power dynamic #Certainly not to the same extent or in such a well socially defined way (bc they conceptualize sex almost entirely through a lens of #penetration) but I think you should be treating relations between ancient Greek women with the same degree of #historical distance from our lives and identities today.#Ok death grip failed I just typed an entire rant. Fiuck it

50 notes · View notes

volivolition · 4 days

Note

I say this in the most loving way possible, how the fuck can you write the most expressive and magical tags ever?? How do you have the mental energy to form words? 50% I can only say "nice post op". You inspire me to spread positivity to everyone but I literally can't be this positive and kind all the time. Just want to send you love and know that I appreciate you <3

HKJGH AW RED!! :'] <3 it does take a lot of energy, i understand :'0 i keep a lot of cool art in my tumblr drafts. the art stays in there until i have energy to type all my thoughts out. a lot of things stay stuck in there… i try to make sure art from my friends get out soon though :0 don't feel bad if you can't type a lot!! anything you can manage is okay! no one can be positive and kind all the time, and that's normal! just do what you can. i promise it's enough. (<- these are things i need to remind myself too <3)

a lot of it is literally just me needing to scream hkjfh, i have a lot of thoughts and i love sharing them always. i love rambling, can you tell? (<- joke) also i have a lot of love to give and i love artists and their creations. like WOW someone made a thing!! and they wanted to share it with the world!! AND I GET TO SEE IT!!! i GOTTA tell them i enjoy it!!!!!

it's also my empathy acting up because im also an artist!! and he's like "hey!! you love people writing nice tags on *your* art!! imagine if you were this artist, wouldn't you be happy to see someone tagging it with nice things? :)!" and im like yeah!! if this makes me happy, i should make other people happy too :3

ANYWAY I APPRECIATE YOU TOO RED YOU'RE DEAR TO ME!! SENDING LOVE BACK!!!! <33

#my conceptualization and my empathy handshake WE GOTTA COMPLIMENT ALL THE ARTISTS IMMEDIATELY!!!#i used to take art classes and we were taught how to do art critiques? so i use a lot of that terminology too but only the compliments part #i don't remember much from those anymore but you'll see a lot of my tags talk about ''wow i love the warm colors you used here!''#''the poses are so dynamic!'' ''what an interesting composition!'' ''really good use of texture!'' <- it's basically habit now #talk about what you notice! talk about details you like! talk about how it made you feel! (<- did you laugh? smile? cry?)#truly sometimes i just write ''this made me feel indescribable emotions'' and thats cool too hkjhg <33 also uh. scream a lot?? :']#''WAAAAUHGKJH!!!'' <- very common in my tags hgkjh <3 i know it's hard a lot of the times though!! words are DIFFICULT... we try our best!!#it helps when its a character i know too lmao you'll see me YELL SO MUCH about a post with volition in it bro i will not shut up jhkjdh <3 #or when theres a lot of things happening in a scene to comment on! like if theres a lot of characters or its a comic!#THAT'S MORE THINGS TO COMPLIMENT BABEY!! B) i just like supporting artists. we're all creating such cool things to show to each other :]!!#my whole fuckin goal on earth is to be kind and silly and loving and earnest so!! im trying my best hkjhg <3 #volta transmissions

2 notes · View notes

sysig · 29 days

Photo

idontwannabeyouanymore (Patreon)

#Doodles #SCII #Helix #ZEX #Max Vyer #The conceit of this story has allowed me to pull a few songs from my Vargas playlist which I am Always happy about <3 #A mental institute even! As you can imagine ''The Mind Electric'' has also made the jump haha #Really tho for me it's always the Sharing A Body trope ♥ A deep favourite #How ZEX conceptualizes Max before he ''wakes up'' is very interesting to me #Obviously Max doesn't really want to be himself - to an extent and after a point haha - so this is ZEX's view of him divorced from reality #Guilt! Not that it's his fault :(#There is an interesting moral quandary to cavorting around in Max's body - even if he's convinced that he's alright with it after the fact #ZEX doesn't know how to protect himself from a lot of human (and paranormal lol) experiences #Not that he intends to be reckless all the time just that he's not even aware of the risk a lot of the time!#But he still puts himself - Max's body - into those risky situations with very little stomach for regret - of even admitting such to himself #He's terrible ♥ They both are! I love them <3 #The kind of sympathy he has for Max is incredibly interesting to me - that Max had a life outside of him that he's in the way of now #Any and every human worthy of love! Of being themself! And also that ZEX deeply wants his own body back haha the poor dear #And the way he gets annoyed at Max's body - there's a lot in the dynamic for Max not even being there! For now :)#As it is ZEX's guilt at/discomfort with being in his body is fascinating <3 #Can never stop mentally dissecting them hehe ♪

4 notes · View notes

hirokiyuu · 1 year

Note

besk/instance, besk actually getting instance to laugh really hard at something

Laughter changes the whole shape of Instance's face, and not in a flattering way. She smiles with too many teeth, her nose all scrunched up, the skin between her eyes wrinkling to make her look like a witch, and the sound itself isn't much better. And yet, even as that wheezing too-loud cackle clangs against each wall it hits, Besk can't help her own triumphant grin in return, alight with a strange and easy joy.

#this prompt killed me. thanks. im dead now #ive been obsessed with this one for a while. thank u op for this im genuinely like. on the floor #besk+instance happy is so............. its so............#just like conceptually u kno. its just. its so......................#i think a lot abt them being like......... friends (?) u kno............... their dynamic..............#where once htey were so close and now besk's face is fogged by a distant memory etc etc #or however the letter goes. u kno #all my secrets died with besk. and so on. you know how it is #(fully despondent) You Know How It Is #old woman divorce and also widowship. you know #instance wouldnt act the way she does abt besk if she had not once. deeply care for and loved her. u kno. u kno. u kn #<guy who is normal (lying)#ok im calm. im calm. (lying again)#how do you writing #asks #anon #ask memes #i was a teenage exocolonist spoilers ?

6 notes · View notes

notquiteaghost · 1 year

Text

not to complain abt the teens but i am developing a twitch abt how some teen-heavy fandoms seem to have extrapolated "queer coded" out to mean "i, the audience, read this character as queer" and now use "X coded" as if it's synonymous with "headcanon"

like, just. queer coding is when the creator adds elements to a character, such as mannerisms or clothing choices, to imply to the audience the character is queer without outright saying so. sometimes it's to get around censorship & sometimes it's to be homophobic and/or transphobic

if two characters' dynamic is "sibling coded" then that is an intentional choice by the creator. but also that doesn't actually hold up, conceptually, because there isn't a handy set of cultural touchstones for what a sibling dynamic looks like. and there's far less reason to imply that rather than outright state it. the same with "minor coded". what makes queer coding possible isn't that 'queer' is a descriptive term, it's that queer people have a defined culture and non-queer people have defined stereotypes. this is not true of every possible descriptive term.

nvm reading comprehension i need everyone to go take a media studies class. go watch the celluloid closet

#yelling at clouds #i am not a prescriptivist but words do mean things #it is better to understand the history of the terms you're using rather than guessing based on vibes i promise

5K notes · View notes

cocoacat323 · 5 months

Text

Scum Villian Fic Recs

So, I've been reading fanfiction for a long ass time, longer than I've been on Tumblr and have always loved fic recs, and now I realize I can make my own(yay!), so here it is. None of these are explicit or anything, but they are super good.

A Transmigrator and a Time Traveler Walk Into The Bamboo House Summary:

Over a year after Shen Qingqiu's death, Luo Binghe consults his servant's servant, concurrently his disgraced martial uncle, for a way to bring the love of his life back. Shang Qinghua sends him in the direction of a certain time-traveling artifact, which supposedly brings one to the day they first met their soulmate. Odd, though, that the artifact ends up missing the destination by just a few years…

A story in which post-Abyss Luo Binghe relives his disciple days, while juggling his secrets, traumas, and some unexpected revelations about the man he loves on top of that.

Unveiling The Imposter Summary:

While tracking a suspicious fortune-teller, Shen Qingqiu falls unconscious. The fortune-teller extracts a glowing orb from his body, telling Luo Binghe and Liu Qingge that this Shen Qingqiu is an imposter, and they can see for themselves if they don't believe it.

Alternatively, the Demon Lord and Peak Lords watch Scum-Villain's Self-Saving System.

Characters Watch the Series fanfic. Post-Canon.

High Mountain, How I Long Summary: Shen Qingqiu, after enduring his trial, is placed into Luo Binghe’s custody at Huan Hua Palace.

meta madness Summary: Looking at SVSSS through the eyes of the universe left behind when Airplane and Cucumber died. (Note: Not a fic, but a series, but every fic in it is so good so definitely check it out.)

it's only shameless if you had any shame to loose in the first place Summary: They have not told anyone about their marriage, and at Shen Qingqiu's request, they will only do so once the wedding preparations are done. No one will have time to nag!

But in the meantime, Luo Binghe, demonic lord or not, is only an alpha. He must do something to show off his claim or he'll go insane, he really will. He'll qi deviate terribly, see if he won't.

Fortunately, as thin-faced as he is, his Shizun does not care much for proper dynamic etiquette...

love's worth running to Summary: “Shizun,” he purred, darkly calm despite the anger oozing out of his mock-respectful smile. Luo Binghe's grip on Xiu Ya's blade tightened, and he realised with belated horror that his blood was running down the sword and dripping by Shen Qingqiu's feet. His sword had to be held at an upwards angle now, to reach the place where he pierced him back then.

Shen Qingqiu felt sick. There was something wrong in this dream.

“I ask you again. Do you regret it, Shizun?”

Shen Qingqiu can't answer whether he regrets betraying him. Luo Binghe wants his Shizun to understand how he suffered, and drags Shen Qingqiu into his dreamscape of the Endless Abyss that night.

The only problem: Shen Qingqiu isn't waking up.

We Are Not Wise Summary:

When Shen Qingqiu drew Shen Yuan’s soul sword, it felt like being burned from the inside out. The fire wasn’t cruel, but it was still fire—hot and destructive, searing the softest pieces of him.

When Binghe’s fingers touch the hilt, he is ready for pain.

Transmigrated into a version of Proud Immortal Demon Way where cultivators manifest their own souls into spiritual weapons, Shen Yuan finds himself sort of kind of…accidentally blackmailing Shen Qingqiu into taking him on as a disciple before Luo Binghe joins the sect.

That should give Shen Yuan plenty of opportunities to make sure nothing goes wrong for his favorite protagonist, right? RIGHT!?

A story of twists, turns, hope, despair, and soul swords. Written for the Bingqiu Reverse Minibang 2023, illustrated and conceptualized by the incredible Suzu!

The Cultivating Force Summary: In which a Master and a Padawan run into a Shizun and a... Sith?

and judgement is just like a cup that we share Summary: The blob finished rotating into place in a way that wasn’t quite compatible with geometry as Shen Qingqiu understood it, and cleared a throat it didn’t seem to have.

“Greetings,” it said, somehow clearly addressing him in particular more than the room as a whole despite its total lack of features other than blueness and translucency. “I’m here on behalf of the Hyper-Celestial Peace and Order Enforcement Bureau. Crime scene secure, proceeding to interviews. Beginning with Subject One: You are Shen Qingqiu, formerly Shen Yuan, also known as Peerless Cucumber?”

"Proud Immortal Demon... Protection Squad?" Summary:

[ REWRITTEN 2023 ]

in which shen qingqiu, the nation's scum villain, doesn't perish from a qi deviation and instead, after dying tragically in his pathetic, sickly, 20 year-old body because he ate some definitely rotten yogurt he mistook for cream cheese like the absolute knob that he is, shen yuan wakes up to find himself in the body of a child, in the middle of a forest, and with absolutely no clue what world this shitty system had dropped him into. he decides to just go with the flow, one step at a time.

what could possibly go wrong?

(the answer is: everything)

(Shen Yuan Might Die Often but His) Old Habits Die Hard Summary: When Luo Binghe asks about his spiritual veins in the Holy Mausoleum, Shen Yuan's chest feels so funny that a lifetime of being chronically ill and reassuring his loved ones that, actually, he's fine kicks in. It is fine, really, because every problem in Airplane-bro's world can be solved by something that's penciled regularly into Shen Yuan's schedule at least eight times a week now.

Except the cure for Without a Cure doesn't work, and Shen Yuan's unlucky enough that Airplane-bro's plot device for winning over a tsundere via 'walking a mile in each others' bodies' hits him before he can figure out an alternative to telling Binghe that actually his five years of rebuilding Shen Qingqiu's spiritual veins diligently failed to cure him.

Luo Binghe is, of course, less than impressed to discover through personal experience what Shen Yuan, with his pain scale so skewed by years of chronic pain, never did during all his time poisoned: that, actually, having spiritual energy forming blockages and blood stagnating in your body hurts like hell.

Anyway, that's all that I've got for now. I hope that if you do take my recs you enjoy them, and remember to read all of the tags. Have fun reading!

#fic recs #fanfiction #svsss #bingqiu #luo binghe #shen qingqiu #shen yuan #danmei #shang qinghua #mobei jun #moshang #the scum villain's self saving system #the scum villian’s self saving system fic recs #svsss fic #shen jiu

356 notes · View notes

caffetato-the-caffeinated-potato · 3 months

Text

Yeah, I know this is a few days late. But this drawing took me a lot more time than I anticipated, and the executives weren't always functioning, so it is what it is.

It's hard to believe that I only started posting art Rise art in late September, and have already gained a modest following. I have @onejellyfishplease to thank for a lot of that, I believe. I would often make fanart for them and when they reblogged it I'd receive a significant spike in notes, and sometimes a new follower. So thank you, Jelly!

Jelly is also the one who encouraged me to make Tabletop Turtles, the first AU I've made since I was 12! And now I'm starting to be able to carve out my own following without needing to ride on Jelly's coattails.

Speaking of TTAU, how about an update? [Under the cut]

TTAU is still very much in development, though I'd say it is now out of the conceptual stage and is now in the planning stage. I've got many ideas for the story and am currently in the process of organizing those ideas into a rough outline and filling in some blanks.

The story of TTAU will retell the plot of the show, reimagined by the fantasy setting and different dynamics created by the separated AU aspect. Plus, with some of my own subplots and worldbuilding thrown in as well.

All that to say; this story will not be short. In classic Me fashion, I've managed to take a simple concept and turn it into an epic-length story. Because I'm incapable of telling short stories, apparently.

So, the comic probably won't be ready to start for at least a couple more months. I am a plantser, who leans a little more towards outlining, so I don't want to jump into the story without at least a general idea of where I'm going. I'll try to keep making some art for TTAU in the meantime.

And, because this is my first time ever making a comic, and literally every comic making advice video ever practically begs you not to start with a long comic, I'll be making several short comics as practice. I'll probably start with simple comic strips, work my way up to short stories. Some might be related to TTAU, but most probably won't.

Thank you for your patience, and your encouragement! Especially to @overthinkingspark-blue, @idk-im-just-here-now, @starsandspacefog, and @varianlikescheese! This idea would have fizzled out a long time ago without you guys bouncing my excitement back at me and keeping this flame burning.

And as always, if you have any questions, feel free to send me an ask!

#rottmnt #rise of the teenage mutant ninja turtles #rise of the tmnt #my art #rottmnt fanart #save rottmnt #unpause rottmnt #rottmnt donnie #rottmnt leo #rottmnt mikey #rottmnt raph #rottmnt april #rottmnt mayhem #rottmnt shelldon #Tabletop Turtles AU #TTAU art #tumblr milestone

163 notes · View notes

weebsinstash · 6 months

Text

Just when I was chugging my Batfamily juice and was trying to nail down an idea for that, here comes season 2 of Invincible, "hey you wanna see an alternate universe version of Mark who turns evil like his father and when Eve rebels against him he literally PRACTICES AND PERFECTS how to non-lethally PERMANANTLY PARALYZE HER so he can stop her without killing her"

Like genuinely the actual psychotic yandere adjacent behavior and he's also gaslighting her the entire fucking time, like genuinely one of my favorite but most infuriating tropes of the "unwilling hero x infatuated villain" dynamic is when the villain is like psychologically manipulating their intended conquest with the whole, "I didn't kill your friends, YOU killed your friends when you recruited them to stop me/run away/save your planet whatever. sweetie i hate seeing you upset so why did you make me break your toys"

I know the clip is about Mark but I can just see Nolan and a human/hero darling and you're desperately trying to run away from him, break up with him, literally run away and disappear, and you've got all your friends and coworkers helping you literally like, leave the country, maybe even leave the planet, and here comes Nolan crashing in, reducing all of your friends to just PASTE and you're sitting there mourning and screaming and horrified and here's Nolan just tut-tutting at you, "why would you make me do something like that? You think I WANT to make you cry like this? You got a little scared and got your friends involved on some little scheme and now look what happened! Honey can't you see why I'm worried about leaving you alone? You need me"

It's like. It's like in Don't Worry Darling where the boyfriend would rather keep her completely helpless in an unfulfilling mediocre life when before she actually used to have significantly more agency and played a role in society but he thinks THIS is what's best for her, and inherently implying being his wife is all she needs. You could be like a molecular scientist or some shit and Nolan will think you're so cute and smart but it's in an "oh look at you and your little human tech, that's so cute, not anything like MY species though" infantalizing way. You could've been a scientist on the cutting edge of technology furthering your species and Nolan is just like, "but it's just human stuff" and thinks it doesn't matter because. I mean. He loves you but your lifespan is NOTHING like his, and your planet is already going to be conquered and Viltrum doesn't really need your work, so, just, settle into being his complacent little mate ok? Just focus on being his companion and, if you're able, he'd like to start on making a family--

I think it would be absolutely horrifying to find out you're pregnant and be trying to run away from this man with the baby because like. Fuck off if you think he'll let that happen. And in another twist, could you even imagine if you turned out to be a viltrumite hybrid or some kind of powered mutant too. Imagine being absolutely terrified and running to get an abortion and they can't even sedate you because suddenly your skin can't be pierced by a needle. Like actually on a conceptual level just, brine in the concept of not even having abortion as an option, knowing there is some inhuman hybrid growing inside of you that has now completely taken your body for itself, cannot be removed, holding you hostage like a malicious little parasite. Meanwhile Nolan is OVERJOYED because this is going to be his first baby ever and, obviously, the first baby the two of you are having together. The first of many, he hopes

I also think it'd be like. So fucked up if this is some twisted "something unrelated and unfortunate happened to Debbie" scenario where Nolan is raising Mark on Earth already as a single father and THEN Nolan falls for you because like. Imagine technically being not that much older than his son and the second these yandere aliens attach themselves to you, you've got a husband who you don't even know how old he is and a "son/brother" who's like. Maybe not even 5 years younger than you. Like can you imagine making friends with Mark and you're like hanging out and playing video games and suddenly it's just "Oh hey dude your father's been acting kind of weird around me, and-- wait what? What do you MEAN you guys want me to live here. What do you MEAN I could be like a big sister to you, bro we were just playing Xbox--"

You think of Mark as a buddy and friend and you eventually find out he and his father are straight up stalking you and starting to dig their fingers into your life and your business. You're at work running back and forth not knowing the figure floating and watching from however many hundreds of yards away amd scowling as you're worked to the bone. You grab a drink with a coworker and they kiss you at the door of your apartment and the next day they got into an accident that sent their car off the road, killing them. You vent personal private feelings to Mark because he's a good friend in your relative age group and he's running off, "DAD LISTEN--" "oh so That's why they've been like that. Huh. Good work, son." like the actual fucking levels of SCHEMING

And just when you think maybe you've gotten away and shaken them off, then you've got some third motherfucker suddenly showing up at the secret hideaway in another country you poured the rest of your money to. An old man with white hair and an unamused expression introducing himself only as Cecil as he not so subtly threatens you that he has Nolan on speed-dial and that the American government has an especially vested interest in you returning home, maybe or maybe not to pacify the not one but TWO extremely irreplaceable alien protectors of the planet, and then you've got Seal Team Six already shoving you in a duffle bag and dropping you off on the Grayson doorstep just in time for dinner

#yandere Invincible #yandere x reader #jeez this series has potential to be DARK DARK #sinprompts

218 notes · View notes

overleftdown · 4 months

Text

farleigh start and racism; oh boy.

(some people are going to find this post really annoying. some people are like felix catton.)

read this.

just some thoughts from the perspective of a person of color who is slightly too obsessed with this character. this movie leaves the viewer a lot of wiggle room to interpret how dynamics such as race and privilege come into play. there are certain parallels between this movie and the real world, and how unnoticeable white privilege tends to be for white people.

lemme lay some groundwork. from what i understand, the most prevalent form of racism and white privilege within upper- and middle-class circles is implicit bias. this is racist conceptualization that subconsciously interacts with one's perception of society and people. implicit bias is often externalized through microaggressions, differences in treatment and language towards a marginalized person, misplaced guilt or pity, and persistent denial of any existing privilege or marginalization. most of these biases are also founded on stereotypes. some racial stereotypes are heightening (e.g. asians are all smart) and some are lowering (e.g. black people are all lazy). all stereotypes are harmful. i'm going to discuss some of the stereotypes that could theoretically interact within the saltburn canon, as well as some things i've noticed within viewers. can of worms, to be honest. boutta get INTO IT.

to use one of my externalization examples, let's discuss (or, more accurately, let me discuss) the denial of existing privilege or marginalization. this is a subconscious way to uphold a sense of morality, effectively avoiding "white guilt," so to speak. as is clearly presented to us, the cattons are very attached to their methods of upholding their own self-righteousness. saviorism is a common theme within both elspeth and felix. in oliver's conversation with elspeth about poor dear pamela, you can see that oliver recognizes elspeth's need to justify her actions in an attempt to preserve her sense of decency. one can only assume that this applies to how they view farleigh's relationship with them. there's more to talk about there, but i'd like to start with the only overt mention of race in this movie.

in felix's confrontation with farleigh, farleigh makes the bold and brave decision to mention his blackness. i call this brave because it's genuinely a terrifying thing to do, and the end of this conversation is proof. "oh, that is... that is low, farleigh. seriously, that's where you want to take this? make it a race thing? i never know our footman's names; the turnover for a footman is notoriously high!" we have felix's intentional or unintentional shaming of farleigh. we have felix's appalled denial of any involvement of race or racial bias. we have felix's diversion away from farleigh specifically and onto his own inability to know his staff's names. felix made no further attempt to recenter farleigh, aside from telling him that the cattons have "done what they can." (which is SO absurd on its own. they are clearly and obviously able to do more. they are disgustingly rich). farleigh does feel ashamed after felix's response; you can see it on his face, and archie says it directly. here is a relevant and prevalent stereotype for all marginalized people: that the discussion of marginalization is exclusively weaponized to gain something or manipulate a situation. this is how felix chooses to see farleigh's implication of existing white privilege. this conversation results in nothing, does nothing, as felix chooses not to confront what he's probably thinking as he repeats the words "begging bowl" to venetia.

now. saviorism, guilt, and pity. felix specifically tells oliver that sir james made an effort to support farleigh out of guilt. i'd like to order some things in a way that i perceive them. frederica start runs from england, which is explained in a condescending way by felix. frederica start marries a so-referred-to "lunatic" who dug through fred and jame's money, although it's farleigh who only mentions fred's financial irresponsibility. out of guilt, james offers to pay for farleigh's education. the specificity of education is compelling to me. perhaps james is simply a patriotic man who strongly believes that english education is better. or this is a mobilized racial stereotype! who can truly know. i digress. james' offer to pay for farleigh's foreign education puts the cattons in an odd position; if farleigh is to attend english schools, he will need to stay with the cattons. if farleigh is staying with the cattons, he will need to be treated as equal to felix and venetia. this is all one long chain of obligations. none of these acts from one family member to another should be considered "charitable," because family should intrinsically create a trustworthy and supportive dynamic.

i believe that the cattons do consider their fostering of farleigh as obligatory. moral obligation, as they recognize that families are intended to have a sympathetic and loving relationship. they cannot, however, escape the truth that they're just guilty. the "begging bowl" and "biting the hand" are more symbolic of a starving dog and its charitable adopter than a cousin/nephew who's staying with his absurdly rich family. see, the cattons are fully and entirely capable of affording another child, of supporting frederica financially, etc. the only way i can rationalize their reluctance to do so is by assuming that they don't feel like farleigh deserves it. is this a crazy assumption? i genuinely don't see why else. of course, i don't think this mentality is explicit or conscious. it's more-so the reality that when farleigh walks in a room, he's not the same as anybody else. aside from background characters at oxbridge, the only on-screen black people are liam, joshua, and james' godson's wife (who gets degraded on-screen). this is the reality of being different in an environment such as the english aristocracy. the cattons choose to see themselves as the hand that feeds the less fortunate, more entertaining, and least inconvenient. the cattons' inclusion of farleigh is not only reliant on how well farleigh performs, but also on their own pity and guilt.

all of this is somehow, painfully mirrored by some takes i've seen on farleigh. maybe this entire post is presumptuous, but you know what isn't presumptuous? saying that certain people hold farleigh to an incredibly odd standard. while the cattons never canonically said anything along the lines of "farleigh doesn't deserve our love and support," mfs on the internet have. the number of times people have referred to this character as greedy, lazy, petty, and malignant is so odd to me. i'm insane, i know. i just don't understand how people can hold farleigh to the backdrop of an english aristocratic family and so passionately say that he, of all characters, is the most detestable. or that he, of all characters, has no reason to behave in the way he does.

is farleigh greedy? greed is defined as a desire for more. farleigh has no desire to climb ranks, no desire to replace or surpass felix, no desire to hold any power over any family member. he is maintaining, upholding a standard that has been set for him throughout his life. is it kind or selfless of him to meddle in other people's affairs with the cattons? no. does he have a reason to be upset that non-relatives of the cattons are a threat to his inclusion in the first place? yes. is farleigh lazy? i don't even need to explain this one. no. if you don't consider oliver lazy, then i really don't want to hear anything. is farleigh petty? pettiness is defined as "an undue concern for trivial matters, especially in a small-minded or spiteful way." farleigh's meticulous attention to trivial matters isn't undue in any sense. a person of color and their meticulous attention to trivial matters is almost never undue. elspeth is a good example of petty. is farleigh malignant? there are a lot of definitions of malignant and i've seen people apply all of them, in some way, to farleigh. that's just wrong. archie madekwe once said, "i was interested in humanizing what, on paper, seemed like a mean character, a villain, or a bully. i don't think he's any of that. he's very self-serving, but i think he's really a heartbreaking character." case closed, this was for my own piece of mind. had to write this section because good lord.

in conclusion to this post that has gone tragically off the rails, i think the in-canon and viewer perspective of farleigh is, perhaps, a little racially motivated. sue me. they are all very centered on this idea that farleigh doesn't deserve inherent respect, support, and love. to remove farleigh's rational position within the cattons family would be akin to removing his right to familial love. genuinely, that's how i see it. the transaction nature of farleigh's actions is responsive. he sees felix as a social shield at oxbridge, he sees elspeth and james as the beholders of his perceived security, and he sees saltburn as a way to escape from his lack of privilege and his lack of stability in america. boom. bam. pow.

#farleigh start #saltburn #saltburn 2023 #i love making it a race thing #took multiethnic lit and racial sociology this quarter #critical race theory is my weapon of choice at any given moment #“erm actually”#the “i love making it a race thing” is a jest #white people b making it a race thing without even knowing it #like hello ur the one who fucking started it #womp womp on GOD on griddy #i tried to explain to someone that i related to farleigh because i'm also half white and my white family is painful to exist around #and this mf said “erm u actually relate to him cuz ur a horrible person and so is he”#hello what #i'm not doing what farleigh is doing like obv i don't live in a fucking castle #but the girls that get it get it #i'm incapable of shutting up #ever #actually #yabbering on at 1am #talking to the voices in my head #the voices r saying “farleigh start u will always be famous”

122 notes · View notes

chronicallycouchbound · 9 months

Text

A Guide for Coming into Disability

Note: While this is meant to serve as a guide for people who are becoming physically disabled and people newly recognizing their existing experiences of disability (including chronic illness), I feel that this guide is helpful for anyone, disabled or abled. No guide is one size fits all, but I hope this can help supplement other resources that exist.

Recognizing Disability

The first aspect of coming into disability is conceptualizing what disability means for you. Some initial questions to consider are:

What is disability?

What does it mean to be disabled?

How do you identify disability in yourself or others?

Only you can define what these mean for yourself, but many definitions and models of disability exist.

Loss & Grief

As you begin to transition into a disabled body, the first sign of that change is often the experience of loss. Loss of ability, access to the world, hobbies, community, loved ones, and your sense of self are just some of the types of loss you might be experiencing. Additionally, when being a part of any marginalized community, you are now not only beginning to experience the trauma of discrimination that you’re personally facing but you are also exposed to a communal trauma of systemic marginalization.

Due to the ableist society we live in, every single person is internalizing ableism. Everything we see on the news, in movies, in classrooms, etc. is absorbed subconsciously to create a personalized narrative of the disabled experience. Weather or not that ableism is externalized doesn’t matter, because if you’re not actively dismantling internalized ableism and practing anti-ableism, then that ableism will hit you much harder when you transition into disability. The work to navigate this is constant, evolving and will change with time.

All of this is very heavy. Always unpacking, always processing, always grieving. But it does get easier to navigate, especially with the proper supports. To cope with this, I highly recommend seeking out appropriate support groups (many are online, Facebook, Discord, The Mighty are some great places to look) and considering grief counseling. Through this, remember to be gentle with yourself, cut off people if you need to, set boundaries, and do what you need to to support yourself and keep yourself safe.

Spoon Theory in Practice

A large portion of my disabled experience is simply just learning. Learning about my body, treatments, my limitations, and what I can still do. This dynamic learning often requires more language to explain complex concepts. This brings us to the spoon theory. If you don’t yet know about spoon theory, here’s the original essay by Christine Miserandino.

Spoon theory works to help explain the energy limitations of chronic illness and has been widely adopted by the greater disabled community. Essentially, it is a metaphor that uses spoons as a metric to showcase energy levels in a tangible form. Over time your spoons will change, different activities might require more or less spoons, and recharging your spoons may also evolve. This is why it’s important to use the concept of spoon theory to help you set boundaries with yourself and others.

For yourself, being able to identify your spoon levels and use them appropriately to ration energy can help you avoid falling into pitfalls like the “Boom-Bust Cycle” and better pace yourself. I put this into practice by creating lists rating activities by spoon levels. I have a master list of meals I can eat, categorized by how many spoons it usually takes to make the meal. This way, I can plan out in advance on low spoon days, like when I have PT, and know I won’t have the energy to cook a meal that takes three spoons to make, I can meal plan for the week and buy what I need for a one spoon meal that day. This can also be applied to things like chores and hobbies. I sort my to-do list by priority, and then by how many spoons it will take to do the activity. Knowing your spoon levels can assist in setting boundaries with others as well. I always have a standing appointment on Tuesdays, so I never make plans that day. I always ask for help with certain chores because even if I physically can get them done, I won’t have spoons for the rest of the day or even the week.

Accepting Disability

In order to cope with the loss of certain activities, finding accessible alternatives can go a long way. You might be able to find an adaptive way to still participate in a hobby, like adaptive basketball. There are also so many options for hobbies in the world, and you might be surprised by what works for you now! This is a good time to start to focus on what you can do, with adaptations, vs what you used to be able to/now can’t do.

Mobility aids are a beautiful tool. My advice is if you think that an aid might help you, you should at least try it! If it ends up not helping, or you don’t need it, you can always donate it. I also like to say (and my physical therapist likes to remind me) Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.

And, of course, ask for help before your body demands it.

Disabled Liberation & Disabled Joy

If you have the spoons and time, you should prioritize learning about our history as a community (Crip Camp on Netflix is a great place to start) Additionally, you can learn about disability theory, models of disability, ugly laws, cripple punk movement, and our rights.

Disabled Joy is a concept that considers our joy to be a revolutionary act in and of itself. I use ‘joy’ here, rather than happiness, because while similar, happiness is based in the root word ‘hap’ meaning chance (as in mishap and happenstance), meaning that the experience itself is based in luck and external factors, and focus instead on the sensation associated with it– regardless of your situation, which is joy. Disabled joy looks like my partner sprinting while pushing me down the sidewalk with the wind in my face. It looks like a perfect day in Sims 4. It comes with safe foods and the healing power of accessible plauygrounds. You find it where it comes, and I hope you can find it in yourself.

Finding Community

The best part of the disabled experience, for me, is our thriving community. When it comes to community building, I always suggest online options first because they’re available 24/7 for most people, and you can reach community from your home. I’ve already mentioned online support groups, but also, online content creators are a great way to find community. If your social media following list is primarily able-bodied creators, especially ones who focus on activities that aren’t accessible to you, it can be really damaging to your mental health. This can help you to find friends who get what you're going through.

Self-advocacy and systemic advocacy resources from our peers and organizations can give you the tools and feel empowered to create change. Seeking resources by and for our community can be lifesaving. You’re reading one right now.

Welcome to the community.

♿️❤️ (wheelchair emoji, heart emoji)

267 notes · View notes

wolvesofinnistrad · 23 days

Text

Read on Ao3 Here.

Its been about 6 months.

6 of the best months of a relationship Buck has ever had. And its not even about it being a guy, discovering his bisexuality. Its just... Tommy.

Hes great in so many ways, and the dynamic is so different that for the first time Buck has been able to relax, not always feel like hes chasing after someone. Actually, hes found out he quite likes being the one that gets chased, romanced, flirted with.

Everything is going great and hes even, in the back of his mind, been starting to think this might be it, this might be a long term thing after all which he'd have never expected. And then Eddie fucks it all up by telling him his most recent girlfriend, Beatrice or something Buck honestly hasn't kept track lately, broke up with him because quote "i can never have a place in your life when you've got Buck so entrenched in it."

Hes never had anyone imply that his and Eddies friendship, the little family hes made with Eddie and Chris, is somehow wrong or off-putting. Eddie was more annoyed than anything and didn't seem to care. But Buck... Buck got worried. Not because he cared about what Betty or whatever thought, but because he wondered if it wasn't true. If maybe their dynamic would scare people off eventually, and did that mean it would scare Tommy off as well?

So that's how hes sitting here, curled under a blanket on the couch, a new sectional he bought because Tommy's back didn't get enough support in the last one, spilling his guts to his boyfriend. When hes done he looks up at Tommy, expecting, well, something. Anger, confusion, heartbreak, but... Its not there. Tommy smiles at him, placing a hand on his leg over the blanket. "Evan... i understand how important Eddie and Chris are to you. I would never make you choose. I would never try to cut them out or deny you that."

Buck takes that in sits with it for a moment but finds it doesn't fully alleviate his concerns.

"But what if... i mean, if were together, you know, for the long haul. It wont affect you? What i have with them?"

Tommy smiles, he looks away for a minute and laughs.

"Can i be really honest with you Evan?" He says, meeting his eyes now.

Buck nods.

Tommy inches closer, drawing up one of his legs beneath him. "When we first started dating i knew you all were close, but i didn't really understand until later that you were a 'family.'" He pauses, thinks. "But when i did, yeah, there was a moment i was a little worried where i fit in. Where there was space for me in your life. And then i had an idea, and once i wrapped my head around it that way, re-conceptualized how i looked at things, it didn't scare me anymore."

Now that's surprising to hear, Buck wants to know what could have so easily changed his mind. "And what was it that made you not worry then?"

Again Tommy laughs. "I started thinking of Eddie like he was your ex husband."

Bucks eyes bug out a bit. "My what?!"

Tommy shrugs. "It was easier in my head than just saying your best friend who you're co-parenting with. I've dated guys with kids, with exes before. It wasn't a stretch to think of it like Eddie was your ex and Chris was your kid from another relationship. Once i put it in my head like that, i didn't worry about whether we could have a life together. You'll always be tied to them, but it didn't mean you couldn't have a life with me to." He reached over and took Bucks hand, squeezed it tight. "And honestly Evan? I'm starting to think I'd like that. A life with you."

Despite how weird it is to think of his little family with Eddie and Chris that way, how Tommy sees it, there's something relief and happiness coursing through him. Knowing that Tommy's already figured out how he can keep some of the most important people in his life and incorporate them into a new life hes building for himself. For him and Tommy.

"Evan?" Tommy asks, scootching closer on the couch, their knees knocking together.

Buck realizes its been too long since he's said anything, but when he speaks he simply says "move in with me."

For all of a second Tommy looks shocked, then elated, then seemingly guarded. "Evan... You don't have to lock me down or something i just exp-"

Buck cuts him off, "its not that. Trust me, I've done that before. Held on so tight, clung because i was scared of being left behind. This isn't that. This is..." he stops, lets his mind and body calm enough to get this right. "This is me holding on because I don't want to let go. Because i want to stay, right here, with you. I'm not scared of being left anymore, I'm scared of not putting down roots. Of not letting the best boyfriend I've ever had,"

"Only," Tommy interjects.

"Best," Buck reiterates, gripping his hand tighter, boyfriend I've ever had know that i want this. I want him. I want a life with you too. And hearing that i think, it was just the final thing falling into place, the last weight weighing on me. I... I've been thinking of asking you for a while, but i wanted so bad to get it right this time. And i think i am, but Tommy." He looks into his eyes. "Tommy you're the first time I've felt like if i got it wrong it would still be okay, we could make it work anyway. So move in with me. Please. Or.. heck, we could get a place of our own if you like?"

Tommy kisses him then. Its slow and passionate but all consuming. Its like nothing hes ever had before. And it feels so right. For once it feels Right.

A week later Tommy sends him a photo of a house for rent. Rent to own actually.

"Wheres that at?" He asks, because its a nice place, he can see the potential.

"Its literally a block away from Eddie's house, I saw it as I was driving away." He says, and Buck can almost hear the laugh and smug smile miles away.

"Its perfect." He writes back. But what he means is, 'you're perfect.'

#bucktommy #kinkley #evan buck buckley #evan buckley #tommy kinard #this is a bucktommy endgame fic dont hate me but im into them rn #my fic #fanfiction

72 notes · View notes

justrustandstardust · 3 months

Text

in honour of geto's birthday, i want to talk about the fandom discourse that paints him as a mother. he definitely has a degree in motherology (with a minor in babygirlism), but i also think it’s possible that gege is genuinely using his character to say something interesting about motherhood and maternity.

this post is inspired largely in part by @virgobingo's thoughtful meta on geto and monstrous femininity, which you can find here. i want to extrapolate from the trope of monstrous femininity and extend it to monstrous motherhood. (which @virgobingo also touches on; you should really check out their meta— it's awesome!)

geto's character is immediately established in a protector capacity, which is intensely reminiscent of the tropes that mothers embody in media. his whole thing is that the strong must protect the weak; it's his core belief. his character is premised around this belief, much like the way mothers' constitutions in media are premised on the principle that they'll go to any length for their children.

we're repeatedly shown his caring side during hidden inventory— he cares for riko, he expresses concern for gojo, he even asks about kuroi after he finds out toji supposedly murdered his best friend. it's made very clear that he's an outwardly caring person with a strong sense of duty. in this way, he parallels the textual role of mothers, whose function is to care and provide above all else. the repeated emphasis on his caring nature is what directly likens him to maternity, whose characteristic trait is tender love and care.

he also houses curses in his body. he unleashes them from inside of him, almost like children leaving the womb. these curses obey him and operate according to his will in a very parent/child dynamic. they are powerful, but they can only do what he tells them to do. he uses them to fulfil his duty according to his core belief: to protect the weak.

when he defects, his ideology fundamentally does not change— it just inverts. instead of the strong protecting the weak (the weak necessitating their strength because they can't protect themselves), now the strong must be protected from the weak (because the weak leech the strength from the strong, therefore rendering them weak).

nothing really changes; he still cares —fiercely— it's just in the opposite direction. he takes the tropes associated with motherhood and inverts them— he'll do anything to protect those under his care, including killing, because he wholeheartedly believes in fulfilling his duty as a protector (like a mother). his unwavering conviction and willingness to die for his beliefs (which are directly about those he's protecting) is the most flagrantly maternal thing about him.

toji's worm calls him "mommy" and it's not wrong. he takes in daughters and becomes the central figure of his "family"; his emphasis on family throughout the story (even as a youth) also speaks to his maternity, as mothers are often written as the binding emotional centres of familial structures.

after he dies, his body is taken over by someone who is Iiterally a mother. he embodies monstrous motherhood during life and after death, leading us to the question of what gege is trying to say about all of this. is caring too much a bad thing? does caring in one way open the door to caring in another? what happens when a mother's love, supposedly strong enough to lift fallen trees off their children, goes in the “wrong” direction?

there's also the fact that geto is male. i think gege is also asking us to reckon with how the tropes of maternity have been confined to women, showing us that these intense convictions and the depth of care attributed to mothers can apply to anyone, even (especially) if they are distinctly masculine. in doing this, he's also expanding the conceptual definition of motherhood, suggesting that mothers can exist beyond their provident care and one-dimensional duty to their beloveds.

geto's monstrous motherhood is an explosive reclamation of agency in a trope where women have been historically limited by the categorical imposition of maternity. it seeks to disrupt not only who we consider to be mothers but also what we consider a mother to be. perhaps the monster is not the maternal figure whose love turns vicious or violent, but us, who monstrously imprisoned them in the fixed role of "mother".

93 notes · View notes

monstersandmaw · 2 months

Text

First time romancing Astarion, and I'm all aboard the ace-spec interpretation of Astarion that I've seen floating around. As someone who's ace, I definitely resonated with him in this scene anyway. That hug reaction from Astarion. Oof.

And the fact that if you also romance Halsin, one of the dialogue options Astarion can give you is to say something like: 'it's not because... we haven't... in a while... is it?'... My heart cracked painfully at that, I'm not going to lie. I have spoken almost exactly that sentence before, worrying that just kissing and physical affection is not enough for someone who's not ace. To have that validated by Astarion was really special for me.

(aka, I really didn't get to know Astarion very well in my first playthrough because he didn't approve of my absolute doormat of a Tav (Kaerlyn the drow) and I didn't spend much time with him, but now with my sassy monk...? I get it. I totally get why you all love Astarion so much).

EDIT: additional dialogue from Raphael talking about Cazador indicates that it might be linked to vampirism (my own headcanon for vampires anyway is they can't get aroused without having fed recently, not just BG3 vamps, but in general)

[some poly-ace-astarion thoughts under the cut too]

I'm not 100% convinced that Astarion is really ok with the consensual poly situation in-game, because he famously doesn't say what he actually wants and is the king of manipulating others, especially in sexual situations (e.g. what Cazador sent him out to do, and how). I'm not sure if I'll reload a save and just have Halsin as a friend...

The dialogue when you check in with Astarion before the Halsin scene is... strained? Odd??? Maybe it's just me over-analysing it. He sounded strained though - his tone high pitched and more grandiose than he'd been in previous cut-scenes, where he was more softly-spoken. It sounded more like early-game Astarion to me...

Also, my dialogue options may have been totally randomised the next time I approached Astarion after a steamy night with Halsin, but they sounded kind of strained there too, and I got the 'I can never say no to you' one, which set my ace people-pleaser alarm bells ringing...

As someone who's poly-romantic but asexual, I can project/imagine here that Astarion has come to care for Tav a lot (more than he ever expected, for sure), and he genuinely wants Tav to be happy. He trusts Tav enough to know that Tav respects his autonomy and right to decide things for himself, and values Astarion for who he is, so Astarion is intellectually/conceptually happy for Tav to get something from Halsin that Astarion is not providing (sex), but perhaps emotionally that additional fact and dynamic is harder to deal with.

That could totally be me projecting though, because that's how I'd react if my husband (not ace) and I (ace) were in that situation (we've discussed it between us, actually XD). Feelings of guilt and inadequacy around sex itself are apparently very common with us ace folks, even in very healthy and happy relationships.

Anyway, that turned into a ramble I didn't intend on a rainy Sunday afternoon. I'm not looking to start any discourse about this though. If you don't see Astarion that way, or had a different experience and interpretation, that's all totally valid and I'm not trying to invalidate it in anyway.

#my two cents on ace-spectrum astarion #astarion #ace astarion #ace spectrum astarion #halsin x astarion x tav #my headcanons are gonna be a lot more nuanced than the game allows i think...#ace #asexuality #bg3

65 notes · View notes

silverwhittlingknife · 11 months

Note

Hi! Thoughts on Dick and Tim during Murderer/Fugitive, and their argument over whether Bruce killed Vesper?

(My interpretation was that to Dick, Robin means not only unwavering loyalty to Batman, but unwavering faith (“I’m dismayed that there can be a Robin who believes Batman could be guilty of murder”)— whereas to Tim it’s more about having faith in the symbol and the mission, not the person)

Tim (suspicious that Bruce has emotional blind spots and is about to get a case wrong): Nightwing. Channel Two. Go discreet. (Gotham Knights 1)

Dick: I don't - I don't see how you can say that and still wear that uniform... Tim: The guy who gave it to me–the guy who wore it first–HE taught me never to back away from any possibility that might lead to the truth. And he still believes that… right? (Gotham Knights 26)

Ooh, look, it’s one of my favorite comics of all time. <33

Yeah!! I think hmmm. Both Dick and Tim are intensely loyal to Bruce and they both care about him a lot. But they do think about their loyalty to him in very different ways.

Also tl;dr I am biased here but also I am right dsfsfs - although I do think that Tim's loyalty is kinda to the symbol, I also think a big part of the issue here is that Tim's more unambiguous personal faith is given to Dick, not to Bruce. When Dick says, How can you wear that uniform and not have faith in Bruce, Tim answers, essentially, I wear this uniform because I have faith in you. Which is not what Dick wants to hear!

I had SO MANY THOUGHTS about this, so below the cut:

Dick and Bruce and the importance of faith

Tim and Bruce and the importance of doubt

More rambling Dick-and-Tim-and-Bruce thoughts

Dick and Bruce and faith

Dick’s notion of loyalty is pretty firm: “It's no secret Batman and I have had our... issues. But I won't be involved in anything that hurts him.” His connection to Bruce, from the very beginning, is all about their shared sense of mission: the oath in the candlelight. Dick’s got this intense loyalty that he feels he owes to Bruce, and he feels betrayed when it seems like Bruce isn’t reciprocating, because as far as Dick’s concerned they owe it to each other.

I think you owe me an explanation, Bruce. ... We were the Dynamic Duo, don’t you remember? / If Bruce Wayne doesn’t exist, who am I the son of? / I know you have to live through restraint. I understand how brevity is your moral compass. But why lie to me, of all people? Why would you lie to me. ME. ... I trust you more than anyone. / I've trusted Batman with my life since I was eight. / On top of everything, he's my father now, too... I want to hit people just for thinking bad thoughts about him.

Dick’s first experience of Bruce is fighting by his side. He initially conceptualizes his role of Robin as about being steadfast partners to each other, and although he'll sometimes later recategorize it as a kid's role, that doesn't change the way he thinks of his own relationship to Bruce: partners, no matter what.

Dick fights with Bruce a lot - he'll pick a physical fight in this very arc! He's not afraid to stand up to Bruce! He wants to be independent and bristles when he feels bossed around or ignored or when Bruce is dismissive or doesn't listen or doesn't call on him for help! But paradoxically, he stands up to Bruce because he has faith in him. Dick respects Bruce enough to confront him and he expects Bruce to offer him the same respect in return. He'll pour out his heart to Bruce because despite everything, some part of him expects Bruce to have an answer, to step up, to be the person Dick's determined to believe he can be.

Tim and Bruce and doubt

By contrast, Tim initially interacts with Bruce like a detective stalking a criminal. He collects newspaper reports. He follows Bruce and takes photos of him and gathers evidence to present to Dick. He goes to talk to Dick, not Bruce, about Bruce’s problems—and Tim will pretty consistently continue to talk about Bruce to Dick (or occasionally to Alfred), to work behind Bruce’s back, to be frank with Dick in ways that he’s not frank with Bruce. Tim’s often at pains to insist that he does respect and care about Bruce, but one of the reasons he has to keep insisting this verbally is because his actions and assumptions suggest a lack of trust.

Tim’s first experience of Bruce is of someone who could be a knight or a monster, who needs help and intervention, who can be loved but not entirely trusted. Someone who isn’t gonna be okay on his own; someone who needs saving and fixing; someone whose sense of himself can’t be entirely trusted or listened to. Batman needs a Robin. No matter what he thinks he wants.

In New Titans 71, Wolfman writes Dick musing about Tim as a Robin and how he’s different from Dick himself, and thinking, “He questions more.” Much later, in Teen Titans/Outsiders, Kory will note the same difference. Which is a funny thing to write given all Dick’s fights with Bruce—but I also think it’s a true insight! Tim’s default is questioning. Almost his entire tenure as Robin is spent as Bruce's apprentice, not his kid, and that affects his attitude a lot. He never takes his trust in Bruce for granted. It’s carefully considered—and it could be revoked. A part of Tim is always judging and measuring Bruce, deciding which qualities he thinks are admirable and which ones not so much, what's worrisome and what's not, analyzing whether Bruce is looking after his health or not, etc etc.

You have to promise me something. You'll listen to Alfred and at least call it a night and give yourself a chance to heal. / How many times are we going to have this conversation, Bruce? You died tonight. For almost two minutes you were dead. / Maybe Batman doesn't need to know about this. / He's a hard guy to get to know. / I have friends. He has... associates. / Bruce has been on the job the longest. It’s slowly driven him mad and eaten the human part right out of him. / My boss - my teacher is gone, gone as in fled, but also gone out of his head. And now he may be a murderer as well. / I think maybe Batman has gone crazy. / Don't like the risks he's taking. Don't like the way he spoke to me. I hope it's the concussion talking. I don't want to think his edge is coming back.

It’s not that Dick never worries about Bruce in this way. He does! In the arc right before Lonely Place of Dying, his inner monologue compares Bruce to an alcoholic. And IMO it’s strongly implied in Gotham Knights 26 (the Dick-and-Tim fight about Bruce maybe being a murderer) that one of the reasons Dick is so forceful and so upset by Tim’s suggestion is that he’s suppressing his own private doubts. Tim’s dragging into the open something that Dick is refusing to look closely at. Dick's faith is an act of will—if I’m going to be Bruce’s ally, then I can’t believe he’s capable of this. I can’t allow myself to believe it. And if I believe he’s capable of it, then I’m not acting as his ally anymore:

Dick: "I think it’s… admirable that you can continue serving a system in which you have so little faith. But I can’t. I can’t, Tim. I cannot believe that Batman is guilty of murder. I do not believe it, and I will not believe it. And I can’t stand with anyone who does."

You don't get this upset about somebody saying that the Earth is flat, you know? Dick's not laughing the accusation off; instead, he's drawing a hard line - I will not consider this. I refuse to go there. The topic is off-limits.

(In the same comic, you've got a similar fight going on between Alfred and Leslie with similar stakes - Alfred refusing to believe it but clearly harboring secret doubts, Leslie openly suspicious.)

General Dick-and-Tim-and-Bruce thoughts

Tim to friends: "I lie to Batman" (Teen Titans 3) Dick to Bruce: "But why lie to me, of all people? Why would you lie to me. ME." (Outsiders 21)

It’s always been Tim’s instinct to strategize around Bruce rather than with him. Tim will lie and circumvent Bruce’s orders, whereas Dick will disagree to his face. Dick respects Bruce enough to give him his say and argue back, whereas Tim tends to think of Bruce as an admired-but-unstable figure who you sometimes listen to but sometimes plan around.

And I think you get the core of that in this arc!

Tim voices his concerns pretty frankly to Dick, but is way more circumspect in front of Bruce, because he doesn't entirely trust Bruce - Tim thinks "is Bruce stable and trustworthy" is "a decision that Dick and I will make in consultation with each other," not a decision that Bruce can make.

In the past, Dick has basically gone along with this kind of thing - he and Tim gossip about Bruce a lot! So it's not surprising that Tim's first thought is that they can confer on it again. But when it becomes a question of "is Bruce murderous, criminal, immoral," then Dick's loyalty kicks in. That's too serious an accusation for Dick to feel entirely comfortable talking about it behind Bruce's back.

Generally IMO, how Dick conceptualizes his loyalty tends to vary a lot depending on who he's talking to. So e.g. in general, Dick's more likely to gripe about Bruce to Tim than he is to gripe about Bruce to the Titans, because he knows that Tim basically likes Bruce. Tim's Robin! Dick takes for granted that Tim is loyal. So it's not disloyal to complain about Bruce to Tim, because Dick and Tim are both on Bruce's side. Dick complains to Tim about Bruce abruptly summoning them into No Man's Land, but doesn't share the same complaint with the Titans. And that's because the Titans aren't friendly toward Bruce in general, and so bitching to them would be disloyal, would be airing dirty laundry outside the family.

By contrast, Tim's a safe audience... until you end up in a situation like Bruce Wayne: Murderer, when suddenly it sounds like Tim may not be on Bruce's side anymore. What are you saying, Tim?

I do think that if Tim had been right, if Bruce had been a murderer, Dick would've ultimately helped take him down. He's very defensive of Bruce because that's how Dick understands the obligations of loyalty, but... he's part of confronting Bruce and demanding explanations in the Cave, and he and Tim (and Cass and Babs) all investigate Bruce together. I think if there had been very very very credible evidence, Dick would've helped fight to take evil!Bruce down. But I also think he would've never stopped mentally searching for an explanation: mind control? body double? I think he'd have an incredibly hard time accepting that Bruce had just murdered someone.

And I mean! In Dick's defense! I don't think Bruce would! At the end of the day, I think Bruce deserves all kinds of criticism in post-Crisis, but I also tend to think that Dick's read of him is a bit more accurate than Tim's, that even though Bruce can act monstrously in all kinds of ways he is at bottom a person who would never ever ever murder a civilian girlfriend no matter how unstable he got and no matter how threatened his secret was. Dick might have a bit more faith in him than he deserves, but at the same time, Tim's jumping to the worst-case scenario pretty fast here, much as he does during Batman: RIP, and I think you could definitely argue that Dick - who's known Bruce longer and better, who lived with Bruce for years instead of just worked with him - has a better and more instinctive sense of Bruce's strengths instead of just his faults.

(And in Tim's defense, as Babs is about to point out to Dick, Bruce has not been behaving especially well recently and Tim has a lot of reasons to be frustrated with him. And Tim's not the only one - Babs is pretty suspicious too!)

.... And of course, I mean, as a Dick and Tim fan, I love that this arc makes very clear that Tim feels his own loyalty is to the symbol, yes, but also that he associates the symbol with Dick first and with Dick's sense of morals, that he trusts Dick, that he sees the costume as something Dick gave him and that's the legacy that he's trying to live up to, to never walk away from the truth, that he thinks the two of them need to be willing to consider the worst of Bruce .... and also the delightful paradox that this isn't loyalty that Dick asked for or wants or welcomes!!

Dick has always taken for granted that Tim was loyal to Bruce, not to Dick; he's not at all happy to hear the opposite. This isn't a heartwarming moment for them but instead a really fraught one, because it's a declaration of Tim's loyalty but it's a declaration of Tim's loyalty that's specifically about not offering unconditional loyalty to Bruce, so Dick feels like he's being invited to be traitors together instead of feeling touched by Tim's trust. Tim's loyalty is something he has to learn to come to terms with rather than something he's happy to have.

And I think that's great!! I love love love these kinds of complicated emotional dynamics (TM), and Bruce Wayne: Murderer is full of them. It's such a fun read.

#THANK YOU FOR THE ASK <33 i rambled for so long sdfdsfs but i really really love this whole arc #it's such a great fight and it does so many interesting things with characterization #it's a story about everybody's very individual relationships with bruce #and all the focus is on the emotional dynamics of WHY they're making particular choices #dick & tim #dick grayson #tim drake #ask tag

339 notes · View notes