#ml writing criticism

[lostinbooks14]

Miraculous: Tales of Ladybug and Chatnoir would've been so much better if the writers gave both Ladybug AND Chatnoir powers essential to defeat an akuma. Imagine,

Ladybug- Creation- The Miraculous Ladybug power which recreates all that shouldn't have, but was, destroyed.

Chat noir- Destruction- The power to purify akumas which allows the weilder to destroy what shouldn't have, but was, created.

Ying and yang, good luck and bad luck, creation and destruction, perfect balance.

They both would've used their powers for good because, as Tikki and Master Fu and all those wise, ancient beings point out, destruction is just as important as creation, dark is just as important as light, bad luck is just as important as good luck (which would've been such a cool theme to dig into but gods forbid the writers ever use this show's full potential).

#miraculous ladybug #ladybug and chat noir #ying and yang #ladybug and cat noir the movie #ladybug and chatnoir #ml salt #mlb salt #ml writers salt #ml writing salt #ml writing criticism #ml writing critical #creation and destruction #heck ladybug still wouldve been more powerful than chat if they still want to go with that cliche women-are-better-than-men trope #but it would be to a way less significant and toxic extent #plus this wont make chat just another weilder #coz honestly he IS in the show #obv he has more experience and that #but in terms of miraculouses hes pretty much the same as everyone else

[motherofplatypus]

The funniest thing about thomas and co watching the finale and explaining stuffs while they're at it is that they made it worse by a long shot. It's like beating a dead bush with a dead horse while digging their own graves.

Explain that Mari is actually aware that Gabe is Monarch? Doesn't explain why she's going to his house without Chat to beat his ass.

Jokingly saying that Jagged's crocodile is important to the fight? Nice joke, but care to explain where this whole Kung Fu trio and pet plot came from?

Said that they had planned that Chat won't be in the final fight with Hawkmoth since the beginning? Good job, his character turned out has always been this worthless.

It was Amelie at the end and Emelie stayed dead? Good to know the last 8 years of her irrelevance actually became irrelevant.

Said it was actually Marinette's win? Of course when the villain finally achieved their goal it is the hero's victory.

They actually believe that Gabe is a hero? Hooray, so glad they actually believe that the terrorist who has no qualms nor remorse for physically and mentally beating his own son that he enslaved for his own business is a hero.

And that's not including how they don't explain how people become Miraculized despite it not being akumatization, or how Lila isn't affected by the nightmare, or why Gabe unified Tikki and Plagg in Deflagration instead of making the wish despite it doesn't requires him to unify them.

And those were from two episodes alone. Imagine if they had to explain other episodes, like Evolution and Derision. How deep can they dig their own grave?

#this is so embarrassing that it's amusing #just shut up and leave the damage as it is #haven't you learn from the last few years? #miraculous ladybug #miraculous salt #ml salt #mlb salt #ml writers salt #thomas astruc salt #ml writing criticism #ml writing critical #ml writing salt

[nixthelapin]

I think the writers totally missed out on using Alya and Lila as foils for both being foxes, but using the power of illusion and misdirection in very different ways.

Lila: using emotions and threats to set a trap for LB (and CN, but she’s got that personal grudge)

Vs. Alya: using her intelligence/cunning to get out of a trap (and get LB out too)

And just in general being very different people:

Lila’s entire character is that she’s a liar who will do anything to avoid the truth, while Alya is the investigative reporter who uncovers truth.

Lila as someone who hates and is out to get both Marinette and LB vs. Alya who loves and supports both

I just think they could’ve done a lot more with this, especially since they made both girls a fox character, specifically surrounding the Fox Miraculous (I know Lila never had the real one, but she did pretend to for her akumatization)- that’s not nothing!

But nah, instead Alya just becomes brain dead around Lila, believes all her lies without question (no matter how stupid or nonsensical), and doubts everything her best friend tells her when it comes to said lies. Wasted potential.

#Alya is way to smart to fall for Lila’s nonsense #heck even if I buy that she believes the stories she should’ve dropped her the second she learned LB’s identity #one of the first things Lila told Alya was that she’s bffs with LB #ml salt #miraculous #mlb #ml critical #alya #alya cesaire #rena rouge #rena furtive #Lila #lila rossi #volpina #hoaxer #fox #fox miraculous #ladybug #Marinette #marinette dupain cheng #ml writing salt #ml writing criticism

[richter10]

#miraculous ladybug #marinette dupain cheng #adrien agreste #marinette deserves better #adrien deserves better #ml writing criticism

[m3nt4llyr4v3d]

Forgiveness in Miraculous

The main issue I have with the redemption in ML is that redemption = forgiveness

The fact that characters get redeemed/forgiven/absolved when they haven’t done anything to warrant any of that: they simply change their mind and oh they’re good now! The good guys fully accept them as good too!

The characters who are “redeemed” so far have not put in the work to be redeemed

Literally the only character I can think of who did something bad and is actively putting in the work to be better and be there was fucking Jagged Stone

Felix barely did shit to be actually be a better person, and yet Kagami’s vouch for him is supposed to be our indication that he’s redeemed, not only that but he’s on the team!

Nathalie changed her mind, then changed it back to continue helping Gabe, then changed her mind again at the last possible moment, and she’s just chilling at the end with Marinette not doing anything about it, somehow that’s our indication that she���s redeemed (if it turns out Marinette forgot because of the wish somehow someone please throw a brick at my head)

Andre literally hasn’t even tried to act better or be better, and he’s completely absolved from all his actions because “he’s sowwy!” At least the other two characters tried doing something at the end, he didn’t do shit!

I am aware that them being better people could come around in season 6, but that’s not my issue. My issue is how they are treated as already redeemed without them putting in any work whatsoever!

It’s so ironic that the writers rag on Chloe because they say she only did good things because of selfish reasons, when the redemptions for the other characters literally amount to them changing their mind and that’s it

#ml writing salt #ml writing critical #ml salt #andre salt #felix salt #nathalie salt #ml writers salt #ml writing criticism

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

I actually thought that Adrien and Gabriel's relationship seemed like it might have been possible to salvage in the early seasons. What do you think?

@tallwriter Starting a new post since this one was getting super long as this is a different topic.

The problem with Gabriel Agreste's character is that they very clearly wanted to write a sympathetic villain - you can tell that from how the show handles his death - but sympathetic villains don't work if you make them cartoonishly evil. You have to handle the situation with nuance and delicacy, especially when one of the main heroes is the villain's son.

Gorizilla is not a perfect episode by any means, but it does showcase how Gabriel should have been written if they wanted him to come across as complex and sympathetic. In that episode, Gabe thinks that Adrien is Chat Noir and, because there's no way to magically force Adrien to reveal himself or confess his secrets, Gabriel has to come up with a situation where Adrien would be forced to transform of his own free will (since that can't be overwritten with a ring or something crazy like that). Which is how we get Adrien hurtling to his death while his father looks on:

Adrien: Always! (jumps out of Gorizilla's hand, and over the side of the building) Yeah-ha! Hawk Moth:(from his lair) No! ... Hawk Moth:(from his lair) If indeed you are Cat Noir, then transform, son. Please. (Adrien continues to fall downward, resolutely remaining as he is) Come on, son! (Ladybug looks down at Adrien, then raises her head, eyes closed.) Ladybug: Cat Noir, help!! Hawk Moth:(from his lair, to Gorizilla) Drop Ladybug!

This is good writing. Yes, Gabe's plan was kind of dumb (you live with Adrien, dude, just bug his room), but if we accept that this was the only way to go about a forced reveal - and that does seem to be the writer's logic - then we see a situation where Gabriel put his son above winning. A situation where he's still very much the villain, but he's not a dastardly, cold-hearted one. He does love his son.

There are actually several of these moments in the first three seasons. Some involve Adrien and many more involve Nathalie. It's why season five's claim that Gabe put beating Ladybug above everything else rings hollow. He never actually did that outside of Evolution (S5E1). He's almost always been loved-ones first when it really counts, a thing that Ladybug uses against him in the final when she tries to crush Emilie. The whole "Ladybug obsession" thing truly feels like something they just made up for that one episode to justify Nathalie "turning sides" aka doing nothing useful beyond maintaining the status quo (hey, they needed someone to keep the senti plot from having consequences and it wasn't like she was doing anything useful anyway!)

The problem is that this "loved ones first" mentality is only used for big dramatic moments, often as a way to keep Gabriel from winning. It's not Gabriel's main characterization even though it needed to be if you want season five's ending to feel even remotely earned. Going into that ending, we should have all thought that Gabe was a messed up dude who truly did love his son. And, if Gorizilla, Style Queen, and Ladybug had all been examples of his standard characterization, then we would have thought that.

But that's not who the writers told us Gabe was.

Instead, his standard characterization paints him as petty, controlling, and manipulative. Which is wild because there was no reason to do that! Gabe could - and should - have been played as stern and removed, but generally loving when he's outside of the mask. In other words, Gabriel Agreste could be well liked while Hawk Moth was hated.

The crazy thing is that this is such a simple change to make. You either removed the episodes where Gabe's awful parenting is the source of the conflict (ex: Bubbler) or you just make a few minor changes to show that he's conflicted about his actions.

For example, take Chat Blanc, the episode that ruined so many elements of this show! In that episode, Gabe is a total bastard. He happily sacrifices his son's happiness to make an akuma in the form of Marinette and then, when Adrien's secret is revealed, does Gabe have any sort of conflict about traumatizing his son? The kind of conflict we'd expect after episodes like Gorizilla? Nope! He straight up delights in showing Adrien Emilie's... corpse? Comatose form? Whatever! Gabe then akumatizes Adrien with a smile on his face.

That gets the writers a solid F for consistent characterization. It's why I highlighted "almost" in red when I mentioned Gabe's motivation. Because in Ephemeral and Chat Blanc, the writing ignores the sympathetic stuff that characterizes the dramatic moments and goes straight for the worst-father-of-the-year, love-to-hate-him, please-let-him-die-now characterization that we get in most episodes.

If you were writing Chat Blanc's Gabriel to fit his intended complex, sympathetic mold, then you would probably drop the breakup plot or you'd have spent all season setting Marinette up as the perfect akuma target, changing the breakup into something that Gabriel felt that he HAD to do instead of opportunistic evilness. You'd also have Gabe drop a line like, "I'm sorry, Adrien. You'll thank me later" before the Chat Blanc akumatization. Or at least don't have him grinning! Do something, ANYTHING to show that Gabe sees using his son like this as a necessary evil and not a fun time! You know, like how he was begging Adrien to transform during Gorizilla? Almost like Gabe had stopped caring about winning and started just wanting his son to live.

Would these changes make Gabe less of a fun cartoon villain? Yes, but that's the point. Cartoon villains are cartoony. They're over the top. They have no nuance. Sympathetic villains don't work with those characteristics.

The normal way to get around this in a cartoon setting is to have secondary antagonists who can be played as cartoonishly evil. And, confusingly, Miraculous has those characters. Chloe, Sabrina, and Lila have been here since season one (Kim could also have stayed a bully and been added to that list, but he's not a teenage girl, so I get why they didn't do that /s.) Felix has been around since seasons three. Nathalie has been an active villain since season two. Any or all of these characters could be the cartoonish, nuance-less villain while Gabriel stays sympathetic.

Instead, they play Gabe however they want to play him in any given episode, making it so that he's impossible to understand from an audience perspective. I personally like the sympathetic take and think that those are the show's best episodes because I like complex villains. It's even how I write Gabe in my stuff because I go for less cartoony takes on canon.

I don't think a redemption was needed, but a sympathetic villain doesn't require one. All that term means is that you can understand the villain and be sympathetic to their plight. Redemption is optional. In fact, the goal is often not redemption, but an understand that, "there but for the grace of the gods go I." I mean, we've all lost loved ones. Wouldn't the power to bring a loved one back tempt you, too?

If they wanted to go for evil, cartoony Gabe, then they needed to drop all of the complexity and go for a Disney villain type character who gets a Disney villain death a la Scar or Mother Gothel. Don't give Gabe the wish. Let him fall to his own hubris by falling into the water of his secret layer and lading as a puddle of ash while a sad Ladybug looks on, having just failed to save him.

If you want to see an excellent look at how cartoon Gabe could have worked, then I highly recommend @zoe-oneesama's Scarlet Lady comic, which is just nearing its end after a multi-year run. I think it's fair to say that Zoe and I largely agree on canon's flaws, she just fixes them by leaning into the cartoon side of things, creating a hilarious story with lots of heart. Canon could have absolutely gone that way too and worked out wonderfully! The issue is not a lack of nuance, it's that they tried to add nuance without ever fully committing to it, making a story that is the worst of both worlds. While a more serious nuanced reboot would be my ideal dream, a reboot that scraps all of Gabe's nuance and just makes him go full evil would be just as satisfying and Zoe proves that.

#ml season 5 salt #ml salt #ml writing criticism #ml writing critical #Gabriel Agreste deserves better #Gabriel Agreste deserves worse #Gabriel Agreste deserves anything but what canon did with him #Let me love to hate him #Or watch sadly as he ruins his relationship with his son #Just don't give me the mess that is canon

[gryficowa]

The others blame Marinette for Chloe's behavior

The others blame Chloe for Marinette's trauma

And I blame Thomas for everything he wrote and did with his characters

#cartoon #cartoonist #thomas astruc #anti thomas astruc #ml salt #ml writers salt #ml writing salt #ml writing critical #ml writing criticism #ml critical #ml criticism #chloe bourgeois #marinette dupain cheng #miraculous marinette #marinette dupen chang #marinette cheng #mlb marinette #ml ladybug #miraculous fandom

[fernsnouveau]

Feels like I only reblog criticism in this fandom these days, and that's not really what I wanted to do. The problem is, the unchallenged toxic messages and the Gabrielcore ideology of late-stage S5 were just so intertwined with the central events and... really everything that now defines post-S5 canon... that I often don't feel comfortable just browsing the fandom for fun stuff anymore because it's a minefield of That.

A lot of people in the fandom are significantly hostile towards those of us who were hurt by the canonized abuse apologia, too, as if we're just too stupid to understand [insert justification used by countless IRL abusers], or we're just being difficult and "salty" for the heck of it.

I kinda just wish that we might eventually get a sub-fandom that just divorced canon after it turned sour, and will focus on the earlier canon and divergence AUs that we actually enjoyed.

#idk why I didn't just abandon this fandom entirely #I still miss the stuff that I actually LIKED about this #yeah it was mediocre fanficcy dorkiness but it was FUN (sometimes with potential for decent emotional exploration!) #ml writing criticism #ml s5 criticism #ml critical #audience reactions #ml fandom criticism #seriously those of us who were hurt by the extremely prominentpro-abuse themes didn't just decide to turn negative- #-for the heck of it to rain on everyone else's parade. #it was mostly people who WANTED TO LIKE the show but then the show nuked too many things they COULD like. #'just turn your brain off and enjoy it!' enjoy what? it's... not enjoyable anymore?! #it's a pity. this show had a LOT of fandom potential. it was VERY blorbos in situations. I miss that.

[chronicallylatetotheparty]

Y'know... Adrien being a sentimonster is a lot like having a preexisting medical condition.

As long as you take care of yourself (the amok) you can live relatively fine but as soon as it becomes aggravated (people start giving you orders) your quality of life goes way down.

To say nothing about how your condition can kill you without warning (using the Peacock directly).

Which really brings into perspective all this whining about Marinette's feelings.

"Oh, but what about Marinette? She's in a really tough position. Having to tell Adrien about Adrien's condition!"

"Sure if something happens Adrien could literally die but what about Marinette? She's so conflicted and sad!"

"Gee, I really hope lying about Adrien's own body will make Marinette grow as a character!"

#adrien agreste #marinette dupain cheng #ml writing criticism #ml recreation #sentimonsters #ml famdom salt

[camelots-rose]

I just realized we could have had a better explanation for the Sentimonster stuff had the show not waste our time with so many, for a lack od better words, Chloe salt episodes or just didn't have episodes that don't add or change anything to the plot within the last two seasons.

Like no offense to Zoe I like her heck I even plan on using her in my own fics but she could have been replaced with Aurora leaving one episode free for Sentimonster stuff in S4

Then there's the bucket load of Chloe salt episodes in S5 plus Kwami's Choice that honestly could have been removed, and nothing of the plot would have changed.

Kwami's Choice 1&2

Derision

Adoration

Confrontation

Collusion

Revolution

Of course while a few Lila episodes get taken out in the process which could and would affect her involvement in the finale the show could have allow Lila to get the access codes to the Agreste mansion during retaliation which would have actually solved said problem caused by the removal.

Tldr: the show could have got rid of Eight Episodes to better expand upon the Sentimonster retcon/add-on if the writers so desperately wanted it

#chloe bourgeois #miraculous ladybug #sentimonster #ml writing criticism #adrien ageste #senti monster #sentimonsters #ml spoilers #kagami tsurugi #felix graham de vanilly #felix fathom #adrien agreste #ml writers salt

[motherofplatypus]

An idea that i don't see people talk about is Chloe being Adrien's sister figure. She had mommy issue earlier than Adrien, then when Emilie was dead, she felt unconscious responsibility to protect and take care of him. All of her affections are all platonic. That's why she hates when Adrien having new friends, bcs they took him away from her. Like, imagine if Chloe has brother complex.

I swear there's a lot that can be explored from their relationship if the writers aren't cementing themselves in "Make everything about Adrienette" and "Adrien is a damsel in distress".

Sigh, another day another wasted potential the show had.

#miraculous ladybug #miraculous #mlb #miraculous salt #ml salt #mlb salt #ml writing critical #ml writing salt #ml writers salt #ml writing criticism #miraculous chloe #chloe bourgeois #chloe salt #thomas astruc salt #thomas astruc #adrien #miraculous adrien #adrien salt #adrien agreste #ml thoughts #ml critical #ml fandom

[nixthelapin]

You know, I liked Lila as a character much better when she was just a lonely girl who lied to get attention and clout rather than some evil mastermind who somehow has three (3) different identities and has a secret lair in the catacombs under Paris.

But the writing team doesn’t want to hear that.

#not to mention how most of her lies suck and everyone’s iq takes a plummet whenever she does #honestly she should’ve been done once the whole ‘framing Marinette and getting her expelled’ thing was done #she literally tells the principal that she has a disease that makes her lie uncontrollably still no one doubts anything she says #wtf #the plot armor is thick with this one #she had no business being in s4 or 5 #especially once Alya leaned Marinette was Ladybug #miraculous #mlb #miraculous ladybug #adrien agreste #marinette #marinette dupain cheng #lila rossi #volpina #ml salt #ml writing critical #ml writing criticism #lila salt

[red-balloon12]

Another reason why I prefer Miraculous!The Movie over Miraculous!The show is that the writing isn’t as in your face about Adrienette then the show is. At no point does anyone say “Oh my god Marinette and Adrien are MADE for each other!” Alya and Nino don’t try as hard to push Adrienette to become canon, Master Fu never compares the yin and Yang symbolism to their relationship.

The movie allows the relationship to grow naturally AS WELL AS letting the viewer enjoy the growth of the relationship without being reminded time and time again that Adrienette is end game.

The “They are made for each other” is replaced with “They are stronger together” which pushes the equality between the two MUCH MORE than the show does which I also appreciate. (And I find it way more romantic Snksksks)

#miracuous ladybug #miraculous tales of ladybug and chat noir #miraculous show salt #miraculous movie sugar #ml writing criticism #show!adrienette criticism #movie!Adrienette sugar #marinette dupain cheng #adrien agreste

[m3nt4llyr4v3d]

I will never forgive Derision

I will never forgive this episode for just straight up lying to fans. I will never forgive this episode for just, insulting them and the characters they’re attached to. I will never forgive this episode literally ruining all characters involved.

I will NEVER forgive the writers. I will never forget the fact that they have said, for fucking YEARS, that Marinette’s behavior was part of the comedy. I will never understand how they expect us to take Derision as an honest to god episode that fits in the timeline and not a complete and total retcon.

I will never understand how some fans genuinely acted like this episode recontextualized anything.

Guys.

Guys.

For literal years, Marinette’s behavior was said to be a joke. If you are insistent that this episode be taken seriously, that somehow the writers planned everything all along…

This means that the writers willingly reduced a trauma response to a reoccurring gag.

For years.

Even if you don’t believe the authors planned everything while still believing this recontextualizes things, guys! This recontextualization literally shows you the narrative was treating this as a joke! Why are you okay with this?? Demand integrity for your characters, for the story!

Marinette deserves better than that, dear god

#ml salt #ml writing salt #ml writing critical #ml writing criticism #ml writers salt #ml derision #derision my beloathed #marinette deserves better

[dreamwreaver]

You know, it's probably a good thing the paris special released after season 5 because if we had this to prime the pump for the season finale more people would hate it. And to be clear, the s5 finale is perfectly hatable on its own merits of poor writing, but this just makes it look even worse with hindsight.

Why? Because ultimately Gabriel's parenting has absolutely no effect on Adrien at his core. If Angstrien is still a sentimonster whose volatile emotions require someone else to take control... why did Good Gabe/Hesperria/Betterfly (god that's a stupid name) not do that and end this claw noir business before it began? Au gabriel is too good to do that? When the entire world is burning and he can see his son is having a hard time moving on? He wouldn't justify it by using an order for Adrien to be happy and move on wouldn't have saved that world sooner?

And let's be real, it was easy enough to have Angstrien default back to his core good personality, same with Shadybug. So they're both good at their core meanwhile Chloe Bourgeois is evil incarnate at every turn? I... that's a rant for another post but seriously.

All this special proves is that core Gabriel's parenting is literally just because he's a terrible person somehow. Again, I blame the retooling between seasons 1-3 and 4-5 for that partially but it has no effect on Adrien. So we're supposed to believe that with this knowledge because the special is canon compliant, Marinette STILL chooses to control adrien for his own protection. And you can say that she doesn't know he's chat noir, but even so we see adrien autonomous enough to know his emotions are his own choice and it's the support of his friends that help him move on from his mother's death. I'm sorry I just, this special has its flaws, but it only makes the end of the Agreste arc worse with this new context.

#ml spoilers #miraculous ladybug #mlspoilers #ml paris special #ml paris spoilers #ml writing salt #ml writers salt #ml writing critical #ml writing criticism

[buggachat]

something so fucked up about Chat Noir’s whole deal is that he is in a lot of ways Adrien playing a character. Like Adrien picked up his miraculous and was told he’d be a superhero so he was like “ok, time to act like a superhero!” and he lets himself have fun w it and play up the role and let loose and kind of just allow himself to be silly and goofy and have fun and for once in his life not care about performing Perfection™.

But. But none of the other characters KNOW THAT. So everyone just sees Chat Noir and is like “look at this guy’s ego. He’s so full of himself. Surely it’d be fair to knock him down a few pegs” without being aware of how few pegs he actually HAS. He’s like the “insecure character who overcompensates in ego” trope except he’s really not doing it unironically, he’s just having a fun LARP pretending to have self worth in his off-hours but nobody else is on the same page about it being a game and he refuses to tell them. He just dramatically pouts about it and lets them laugh and pretends like he’s not internalizing it and it is almost 3 am and my brain forced me to write this instead of sleeping I’m gonna take a melatonin

#writing this my brain was like: what if he actually likes it? #what if he likes people openly criticizing him in ways nobody actually does to Adrien agreste? #because Adrien Agreste is perfect and can do no wrong. maybe he enjoys being insulted or something #and then I remembered chat noirs multiple breakdowns about feeling unworthy and yknow what yeah I don’t think he likes it LOL #do normal people actually fall asleep when they lie down #if you can’t tell I recently decided to make my random ml musings your guys’ business instead of keeping it to myself #hope you enjoy