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makapatag · 4 months

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Tactical Combat, Violence Dice and Missing Your Attacks in Gubat Banwa

In this post I talk about game feel and decision points when it comes to the "To-Hit Roll" and the "Damage Roll" in relation to Gubat Banwa's design, the Violence Die.

Let's lay down some groundwork: this post assumes that the reader is familiar and has played with the D&D style of wargame combat common nowadays in TTRPGs, brought about no doubt by the market dominance of a game like D&D. It situates its arguments within that context, because much of new-school design makes these things mostly non-problems. (See: the paradigmatic shift required to play a Powered by the Apocalypse game, that completely changes how combat mechanics are interpreted).

With that done, let's specify even more: D&D 5e and 4e are the forerunners of this kind of game--the tactical grid game that prefers a battlemat. 5e's absolute dominance means that there's a 90% chance that you have played the kind of combat I'll be referring to in this post. The one where you roll a d20, add the relevant modifiers, and try to roll equal to or higher than a Target Number to actually hit. Then when you do hit, you roll dice to deal damage. This has been the way of things since OD&D, and has been a staple of many TTRPG combat systems. It's easy to grasp, and has behemoth cultural momentum. Each 1 on a d20 is a 5% chance, so you can essentially do a d100 with smaller increments and thus easier math (smaller numbers are easier to math than larger numbers, generally).

This is how LANCER works, this is how ICON works, this is how SHADOW OF THE DEMON LORD works, this is how TRESPASSER works, this is how WYRDWOOD WAND works, this is how VALIANT QUEST works, etc. etc. It's a tried and true formula, every D&D player has a d20, it's emblematic of the hobby.

There's been a lot more critical discussion lately on D&D's conventions, especially due to the OGL. Many past D&D only people are branching out of the bubble and into the rest of the TTRPG hobby. It's not a new phenomenon--it's happened before. Back in the 2010s, when Apocalypse World came out while D&D was in its 4th Edition, grappling with Pathfinder. Grappling with its stringent GSL License (funny how circular this all is).

Anyway, all of that is just to put in the groundwork. My problem with D&D Violence (particularly, of the 3e, 4e, and 5e version) is that it's a violence that arises from "default fantasy". Default Fantasy is what comes to mind when you say fantasy: dragons, kings, medieval castles, knights, goblins, trolls. It's that fantasy cultivated by people who's played D&D and thus informs D&D. There is much to be said about the majority of this being an American Samsaric Cycle, and it being tied to the greater commodification agenda of Capitalism, but we won't go into that right now. Anyway, D&D Violence is boring. It thinks of fights in HITS and MISSES and DAMAGE PER SECOND.

A Difference Of Paradigm and Philosophies

I believe this is because it stems from D&D still having one foot in the "grungy dungeon crawler" genre it wants to be and the "combat encounter balance MMO" it also wants to be. What ends up happening is that players play it like an immersive sim, finding ways to "cheese" encounters with spells, instead of interacting with the game as the fiction intended. This is exemplified in something like Baldur's Gate 3 for example: a lot of the strats that people love about it includes cheesing, shooting things before they have the chance to react, instead of doing an in-fiction brawl or fight to the death. It's a pragmatist way of approaching the game, and the mechanics of the game kind of reinforce it. People enjoy that approach, so that's good. I don't. Wuxia and Asian Martial Dramas aren't like that, for the most part.

It must be said that this is my paradigm: that the rules and mechanics of the game is what makes the fiction (that shared collective imagination that binds us, penetrates us) arise. A fiction that arises from a set of mechanics is dependent on those mechanics. There is no fiction that arises independently. This is why I commonly say that the mechanics are the narrative. Even if you try to play a game that completely ignores the rules--as is the case in many OSR games where rules elide--your fiction is still arising from shared cultural tropes, shared ideas, shared interests and consumed media.

So for Gubat Banwa, the philosophy was this: when you spend a resource, something happens. This changes the entire battle state--thus changing the mechanics, thus changing the fiction. In a tactical game, very often, the mechanics are the fiction, barring the moments that you or your Umalagad (or both of you!) have honed creativity enough to take advantage of the fiction without mechanical crutches (ie., trying to justify that cold soup on the table can douse the flames on your Kadungganan if he runs across the table).

The other philosophy was this: we're designing fights that feel like kinetic high flying exchanges between fabled heroes and dirty fighters. In these genres, in these fictions, there was no "he attacked thrice, and one of these attacks missed". Every attack was a move forward.

So Gubat Banwa removed itself from the To-Hit/Damage roll dichotomy. It sought to put itself outside of that paradigm, use game conventions and cultural rituals that exist outside of the current West-dominated space. For combat, I looked to Japanese RPGs for mechanical inspiration: in FINAL FANTASY TACTICS and TACTICS OGRE, missing was rare, and when you did miss it was because you didn't take advantage of your battlefield positioning or was using a kind of weapon that didn't work well against the target's armor. It existed as a fail state to encourage positioning and movement. In wuxia and silat films, fighters are constantly running across the environment and battlefield, trying to find good positioning so that they're not overwhelmed or so that they could have a hand up against the target.

The Violence Die: the Visceral Attacking Roll

Gubat Banwa has THE VIOLENCE DIE: this is the initial die or dice that you roll as part of a specific offensive technique.

In the above example, the Inflict Violence that belongs to the HEAVENSPEAR Discipline, the d8 is the Violence Die. When you roll this die, it can be modified by effects that affect the Violence Die specifically. This becomes an accuracy effect: the more accurate your attack, the more damage you deal against your target's Posture. Mas asintado, mas mapinsala.

You compare your Violence Die roll to your target's EVADE [EVD]. If you rolled equal to or lower than the target's EVD, they avoid that attack completely. There: we keep the tacticality of having to make sure your attack doesn't miss, but also EVD values are very low: often they're just 1, or 2. 4 is very often the highest it can go, and that's with significant investment.

If you rolled higher than that? Then you ignore EVD completely. If you rolled a 3 and the target's EVD was 2, then you deal 3 DMG + relevant modifiers to the DMG. When I wrote this, I had no conception of "removing the To-Hit Roll" or "Just rolling Damage Dice". To me this was the ATTACK, and all attacks wore down your target's capacity to defend themselves until they're completely open to a significant wound. In most fights, a single wound is more than enough to spell certain doom and put you out of the fight, which is the most important distinction here.

In the Thundering Spear example, that targets PARRY [PAR], representing it being blocked by physical means of acuity and quickness. Any damage brought about by the attack is directly reduced by the target's PAR. A means for the target to stay in the fight, actively defending.

But if the attack isn't outright EVADED, then they still suffer its effects. So the target of a Thundering Spear might have reduced the damage of an attack to just 1 (1 is minimum damage), they would still be thrown up to 3 tiles away. It matches that sort of, anime combat thing: they strike Goku, but Goku is still flung back. The game keeps going, the fight keeps going.

On Mechanical Weight

When you miss, the mechanical complexity immediately stops--if you miss, you don't do anything else. Move on. To the next Beat, the next Riff, the next Resound, think about where you could go to better your chances next time.

Otherwise, the attack's other parts are a lot more mechanically involved. If you don't miss: roll add your Attacking Prowess, add extra dice from buffs, roll an extra amount of dice representing battlefield positioning or perhaps other attacks you make, apply the effects of your attack, the statuses connected to your attack. It keeps going, and missing is rare, especially once you've learned the systematic intricacies of Gubat Banwa's THUNDERING TACTICS BATTLE SYSTEM.

So there was a lot of setup in the beginning of this post just to sort of contextualize what I was trying to say here. Gubat Banwa inherently arises from those traditions--as a 4e fan, I would be remiss to ignore that. However, the conclusion I wanted to come up to here is the fact that Gubat Banwa tries to step outside of the many conventions of that design due to that design inherently servicing the deliverance of a specific kind of combat fiction, one that isn't 100% conducive to the constantly exchanging attacks that Gubat Banwa tries to make arise in the imagination.

#gubat banwa #ttrpg #filipino #fantasy #gamedev #writing #rpg #dnd #southeast asia #d&d #d&d 5e #d&d 4e #i will say #that part of the decision away from a d20 (because gb alpha used one)#is sheer hater energy on my part #like i just didn't want to #because its used by all these other games by white people and especially because its used by dnd #there is like #4 instances where you use d20s in this game

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circus-clangen · 1 month

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Siiigh

Prefix: assistant

Whoops...

#dw guys you still have 6 days #ill be sharing more asks/moons/etc in that time #keep lookin... keep askin... you'll get it...#circusclan #circusclan ask #ringstar #clangen #warrior cats #I will say #the name itself does not sound very circus-y until you see the design in context #keep that in mind #????????

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mayhaps-a-blog · 7 months

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You know one of the biggest differences I've noticed between the original trilogy books and the new Ahsoka show?

In the books, absolutely no one knew who the kriff Thrawn was.

Pellaeon's still adjusting to a new commander, who he follows loyally, but doesn't 100% trust until book 2. The Republic doesn't even learn his name until the end of book 1, and they're still debating whether he's an actual Grand Admiral or self-declared through book 2.

All of the Thrawn's threat - all of his menace to the New Republic, all of his weight as an antagonist - are discovered by the reader at the same time the characters are finding it out.

It's the perfect balance of showing and telling - we get to see Thrawn gain victories by being clever, with Pellaeon. We get to hear about how nervous he makes Karrde - a character we've learned is brilliant and menacing in his own right, and makes our heroes nervous, so how much more must Thrawn be? We get to see him make brilliant deductions and turn up just in the right place and the right time to corner our heroes, again and again.

The Sluis Van attack buildup was perfect - we keep hearing about from Pellaeon, hearing that Thrawn's planning an attack and Pellaeon himself is a bit skeptical, but it's coming, how's it going to work? What's going to happen? Meanwhile the mole miners were stolen, and there's this new cloaking field, and how's it all going to come together...?

And suddenly Han's there, with Luke and Lando, and Wedge, and we're waiting with baited breath because we know it's all about to fall apart but how are our brilliant heroes going to get out of this one?

It's an amazing buildup, fantastic suspense, and really brings home the different perspectives of the characters. And establishes Thrawn as an actual, major threat, that everyone should be worried about.

But then in Ahsoka, it's like they've skipped straight to the Duology, when everyone knows who Thrawn is because he almost conquered the New Republic. But he hasn't done that, in canon, so we're left wondering why everyone's supposed to be worried when, as far as we've seen, he couldn't even beat Phoenix Squadron.

Heck, setting aside our own out of character knowledge, it makes Xiono look right. Who cares about a single Imperial warlord with a single half-destroyed ship? What's this guy actually done?

We know - those of us who know his story. But it's not shown. Why should the characters think him a threat? Why should we?

After all, all we've seen of him is Rebels. And in Rebels... he lost.

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alliepretends · 28 days

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Since I posted one of my Dimension 20 hot takes, and didn't literally explode. I think I'll post the other one that really matters to me.

The discourse around aroace Riz is really hard for me. And I find it really hard to be empathic toward people who think about it differently than I do. And I think it's important to put that lack of empathy in context. Fandom (and by this I mean the broader fandom culture, not D20 fandom specifically) has generally been an extremely hostile space for aromantic people. Shipping is the central pillar of fandom engagement and dialogue. And a romantic lens is typically the very first lens applied to the source material when it is brought into fandom spaces. By that I don't just mean it's what people think about first, I mean analysis tends to pass first through the lens of romance, and then only things the romantic lens can't lay claim to are left for other kinds of analysis. Even for aromantic people like me, who very much enjoy romance when it exists in the realm of fiction, it's hard not to feel like there's a message in that. "Characters, and the fiction they exist in, are only valuable when seen through the lens of romance. Regardless of the genre of the source material. That's because romance is unquestionably the most important and defining feature of life. Unless it's sex." This can get pretty extreme if you become a fan of something with an especially strong central ship (like a Supernatural), where it can feel like literally all analysis of any aspect of the work has to tie back to the ship. In my experience, the sub-culture of fandom, for all its trappings of queer acceptance, is far more arophobic and aro-hostile than any other culture or sub-culture I participate in. Not because fans are actively making anti-aro posts or hate aro people, but because romance is elevated as the primary element of human experience. The only one really worth talking about and exploring. The only one worth writing fics about or dedicating massive posts to. It is worth noting that the Dimension 20 fandom (and, based on my experience, actual play in general) seems to be less romance-focused than other fandoms. There's lots of gen fic. There's lots of discussion that doesn't focus on romance. But that doesn't mean the Dimension 20 fandom somehow exists separately from overall fandom culture. The baggage of that larger culture still informs this fandom.

And that's why the way Riz gets talked about feels like such a slap in the face. He is the first example I (and I expect many others) have encountered of a heavily-coded aromantic character popular with fandom. And yet, that hasn't freed him from the fandom scramble to read him through the lens of romance. I'll admit to being a bit of an extremist on this. I know that for many aromantic people having a single qpr that fills many of the needs of romance is really an important part of their experience. Many of my aromantic/aspec friends feel this way. But I don't even like qpr Fabriz. Because even though that is an authentic and important part of aromanticism to represent. With a character like Riz, whose fears are explicitly based around the lack of access he has to coupledom, qpr Riz still feels like an attempt by romance-oriented fandom to jam the first aromantic character the sub-culture gets its hands on into something that looks enough like traditional coupledom that no one has to change their romance-oriented outlook. The myth of the OTP can live on if you just change some of the verbiage. I know there are arospec people that would also feel excluded if fandom fell in line with my perspective and kept Riz as far away as possible from anything resembling romance. I don't actually know what the right solution to these problems is. We got thrown one bone and there's a bit of a desire to fight over it (Wikipedia's list of aromantic characters has 18 characters, and while that's not all of them, it's a decent percentage). But I did want to put this out in the world. Because I feel like there's a lot of context and baggage missing from this discourse. And all I really want is to have fandom still be able to treat an aromantic character as valuable even when they can't neatly pair him off

#Riz Gukgak #Dimension 20 #negativity #discourse #i will say #the other piece of this is that while I trust Murph and Brennan have the best of intentions #I don't actually trust them to really understand how much this matters to me and many people like me #not because of anything they've done wrong #just that when you have so little representation #it's hard to trust that people who don't share your identity will do it right

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greyias · 11 months

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I really don’t want swtor to shut down it’s the only eu thing that’s active we have left

I knew these asks were going to start coming in.

So for those who haven't heard, it was reported, and then later confirmed by Keith Kanneg on the forums, that EA is "selling" SWTOR to another developer, Broadsword. For those who want to read the article discussing it, you can read here: https://www.ign.com/articles/star-wars-the-old-republic-development-third-party-bioware

TL;DR -- It's not shutting down. The servers are going to stay active for a while

There's a few points to note here:

If I understand things correctly, EA actually owns Broadsword. So EA is in fact not actually offloading a property, I think what's actually happening is BioWare Austin itself is being divvied out and would not be surprised to see if that branch is shut down

At least half of the SWTOR dev team is part of this move, so the key things to keep an eye on is which members of the dev team are moving. If the narrative staff is kept intact, then we have more story ahead of us beyond what's been written, and they've confirmed we're getting 7.3, 7.3.1, and 7.4. It's important to note that their production timeline is generally a year out from things being written, so story-wise, if they have narrative staff, we'll likely still have some story drops ahead of us

SWTOR is profitable (it hit over $1 billion in profit several years ago), and I will admit I don't have the best understanding of video game finances, but my impresion it was far into the black and maybe not an enromous cash cow, but a decent consistent revenue stream. EA is a publisher that is about profits, so as long as the game is profitable, even if there's not new story drops, the game will stay online

Disney has seemingly taken a recent interest in SWTOR after mostly ignoring it after its acquisition of Star Wars, even going so far as to finally acknowledge the general KOTOR/SWTOR era in their presentations last year at Celebration. Does this ultimately mean anything? I don't know, but SWTOR is one of the longest running current properties with a stable player base. They're just as interested in profit as EA. Probably another indicator that the game will keep running for a while.

Other properties that Broadsword operates, such as Dark Age of Camelot and Ultima Online, are old games. Ultima Online was released in 1997, and the servers are still active. So like, I think regardless of what happens in regards of the story, we're not losing the ability to log in and play the game

Long term subscriptions - I remember reading, and forgive me, because I've long forgotten the source, that a key indicator if the servers are going offline is to also keep an eye on the six-month subscription option. Basically, if suddenly the only option for subs goes down to one month, that's when to worry about being able to actually play the game.

This is probably not about SWTOR, but BioWare as a whole. It seems there's a leadership issue at the main Alberta office that's causing issues. This is likely an Anthem issue all over again, but Anthem this time happens to be the Mass Effect and Dragon Age properties. Unfortunately, BioWare Austin looks like it's going to suffer the consequences of that, even though they've been running a tight ship overall compared to the rest of the branches. I feel for them. This sucks.

Now I'm not an oracle, I have no idea if this is ultimately a good or bad thing for the game itself. There's a lot of evidence for both sides of the coin, so right now the best thing is to wait and see. We at least have the promise of the next two patches. Let's focus on enjoying that, and celebrating what we love about our silly space game.

If you love the game, keep playing it. Spend money on it, and keep it profitable and it will stay around. Be kind and supportive of the devs, who regardless of how this shakes out, are going through a major transition. But immediately decrying an active game's death and going into doom and gloom is not going to help things.

Will we get more story beyond 7.4? I do not know one way or the other. I hope we do, but it's hard to say for certain on that front. But I do believe we'll still have our toons and be able to replay all of the released content for quite a while to come. Again, for now I'm just going to enjoy my favorite game, and support it as long as I have it. Even if this inevitably means it's going to change.

#i will say #they made a significant investment in regards to the upcoming date night stuff #as its all fully voiced #which involves a LOT of voice actors #so i just don't know guys #i'm just going to focus on loving my game #in all its quirks and quibbles #but will probably be muting or unfollowing anyone being overtly negative about this news #as i just don't have it in me to see a constant stream of negativity about my happy place right now #you do you #we all cope in our own ways #i'm trying to remain cautiously hopeful #forgive me i got about four hours of sleep last night #because insomnia has to insomnia #so i hope this came across well

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baskeigh-ball · 1 year

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I loooove your separated au, it's so interesting. And since the brother that is the biggest hasn't been in the picture does that mean Donnie is now the (relatively) responsible eldest brother and looking out for his little bros (mostly Mikey)?

Actually, he and Leo have been in a decade-long competition for the title of eldest brother. Donnie has the technology to check who is biologically the oldest but refuses to do so as it is, quote, "irrelevant" according to both of them. It's whoever's the oldest in spirit that matters

(Having said that yes he is VERY protective of their littlest brother and indulges in his antics all the time)

#i will say #and this can be completely disregarded #i stick to the notion that leo's the second oldest #not only because their fanon birthdays AND the rottmnt wiki says so but he just. gives more older brother vibes to me? idk why he just does #mutant manhunt au #rottmnt #asks open

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spidersins · 12 days

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.　　. 　 ˚　. WANTED PLOTS

angel being contracted to a different overlord ( alastor, vox, velvette, fuck it, even zestial ) and what could stem from this

angel being contracted by val but ending up sold/traded/gambled to another and not knowing what the fuck to do with himself

(with a val muse) slowly writing their relationship early on

asmodeus contracting angel and using his powers to bring him to the lust ring - now an existing verse, but would LOVE some more dynamics for him with hellborn/the sins

contracted to be the 'entertainment' at an event (for overlords, royals, important sinners) and your muse buying a private room for them just bc they don't want to be there and want to kill time and not be bothered. cue confused angel noises when your muse doesn't actually want to fool around.

twin verse with another angel muse ♥♥♥

angel, having pissed valentino off badly enough to warrant the overlord using an angelic weapon to injure angel, and angel hiding the injury until it gets...bad. real bad.

hear me out...human angel and human alastor meeting (bc im a simp for the idea angel used to listen to his radio broadcasts) & a relationship (platonic or romanic) stemming between the mafia member and the serial killer x

modern angel as a popstar what more needs to be said

just....human angel

#.　　. 　 ˚　. WANTED PLOTS ╰ I GOT AN APPETITE FOR SAMPLIN'.#i will say #these are plots im happy to repeat with multiple muses/blogs #as all could go in very different ways #and like angel i be a hoe #and want you all x #please drop me a dm if ANY of this tickles ya fancy #im desperate for them all so much

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quins-makeshift-menagerie · 5 months

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What's all this about?

This definitely isn't training. they're both too disturbed by it.

Mnemosyne mentions Megas, which means that one whatever they're looking at must be able to mega evolve.

"Give it a bit" and "stabilisation takes time"

It seems like they just received information about a heavily injured/mutilated pokemon. They might be looking at recent admissions to nearby pokecenters.

they look disturbed and not panicked, so it's likely that they don't know the patient. If this had been Garroway or Amari their reactions would've been way different. Same for Fuji.

I suspect goopy might be involved somehow, they're being set up as the main antagonist. So this might be some foreshadowing

Give it a bit uwu

#I will say #mosy still has a bit of a distachment to the phsyical world #they’ve only been out of the system for a few months #a large reason they’re studying under Joyce is to break that detachment because they ARE very much capable of injury now #they feel the need to be prepared for that and realize ‘this can be bad I need to be serious about it’#as far as joyce goes?#well she’s been a nurse for years #she wouldn’t be very helpful for others if she couldn’t work under pressure #;3c #thebulletbot #ask #I know I misspelled detachment in one of the earlier tags but I’m on mobile and didn’t realize it until it was too late #my brain moving faster than my hands

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cyanide-sippy-cup · 4 months

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So I watched BF and NPMD for the first time back to back about a month ago, and the fact that TGWDLM uses a lot of green in its poster, title, etc but the main villain is blue and is in blue lighting while Black Friday uses blue for its poster and title but the villain is green and introduced in green light might contribute to my increasing insomnia.

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wonderful-emoji · 1 year

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could i get some bread fusions? i'm curious to see if they combine to make like, sandwiches or something lol

#this is a good bread mix #i will say #i haven't seen any sandwiches yet #emoji #emojis #google emoji kitchen #food #moodboard request

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lu-is-not-ok · 9 months

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loving the analyses! could we get ebony stem/ya śūnyatā tad rūpam, if your inbox isn't too full? keep up the good work!

Well, I can fulfill one half of this request, considering I already talked about the other Outis E.G.O for... Way longer than was probably necessary.

That being said, let's dive under the cut for this.

So, let's start off with Ebony Queen's Apple. Or, rather, Snow White's Apple, the Abnormality Ebony Queen's Apple is an Abberation of.

The story of Snow White's Apple is a very interesting twist on the fairytale, focusing on the experience and feelings of the apple that poisoned Snow White.

This apple, created by the witch's rage and curse, was left abandoned after it fulfilled its purpose. Lonely and festering hatred towards the princess, the same feeling the witch was experiencing, it waited to rot away and disapper... But it couldn't. No matter how much time passed, how much the apple was crushed or eaten by bugs and birds, it would continue to exist.

Surrounded by the bodies of the birds and bugs its poison killed, the apple began to ponder its existence, until one day it sprouted enough of a stem and leaves to move from its spot. Thinking of the princess who was woken up from her poisoned slumber by a prince, the apple decided that it was a princess in its own right, but didn't need a prince to be woken.

The main theme of this abnormality is loneliness and jealousy mixing together to form an intense, "toxic" hatred. There's also this interesting idea of immortality and its negative connotations, being that the apple wished to effectively die, but would never rot, instead stewing in its own loneliness and the harm it inflicted just by existing. There's also this interesting idea of a role reversal, of the apple that inherited the witch's will and feelings becoming a princess in its own twisted way.

Now, that's all nice and good, but what about Ebony Queen's Apple.

Here, I would like to briefly rant about the fact that the wiki for Limbus Company contains all the MD Events, all the Abno Logs (though not always with proper assignments who said what), all the detailed Battle Info... but. For SOME FUCKING REASON. It does not include the text for mid-battle events. IT SAYS THE EVENTS ARE THERE!!! BUT DOES NOT PROVIDE THE FUCKING TEXT!!!!

Thank you, shitty fandom wiki, this is useless! You're making my job Harder!

In fact, I'm going to bring up those events as the First Thing, because they actually have the most thematically relevant details out of all of the information we have.

Ebony Queen's Apple has two mid-fight events. One that always activates on Turn 3 of the fight, and one that activates when its Head part is broken once and brought down to half health.

Let's start with the first one, perhaps the most interesting one.

It begins by describing Ebony Queen's Apple as "a heart torn into thousands of pieces", and how it burrows and tangles itself underground to hide itself from all eyes. Already, we have this repeat of the idea that the Apple is inheriting feelings from someone else, being that person's heart rather than just an apple cursed by that person.

This is followed by another interesting line, giving the reason for someone to pull up these roots as "there is no wound that can remain unearthed". The wording of this is kind of odd here. The word 'unearth' means to find something by digging something up from the ground, so for something to remain 'unearthed', it has have already been found and dug up.

Which... doesn't make sense when you first think about it, because it's giving a reason for digging something up by telling you that... something can't remain dug up? Unless, you connect it to the previous line. A wounded heart should not be seen by all eyes. No wound can remain unearthed. Ebony Queen's Apple is very much trying to hide its pain, and that's why the Sinners have to pull on these roots. Reveal the Apple's own pain. Because it by itself never would.

When the Sinners proceed to give each other looks, another interesting sentence follows. "Being coiled in piercing, sharp pain was something to avoid even in one's dreams." While, on the literal level, this is obviously meant to refer to the Sinner being bound by Ebony Queen's Apple's roots, I do wonder... Is it also referring to the pain the Apple itself is experiencing and trying to hide?

The skill check is a Wrath Advantage, with the additional flavor text saying "The dry earth must be upturned. Which Sinner was up to the task?". It's interesting how Wrath, the Sin of defiance, is the one that does better at upturning reality, if you will. But, that's not directly related to the Abno, so I won't dwell on it for too long.

What follows a successful skill check is the Sinner digging up the roots with their bare hands and coming to some... interesting realizations. To quote the text directly:

"In their hands were the doubts of others. The Sinner realized... That while the injury may heal, distrust might take deep root in their heart."

This, I think, is the reveal of what the source of Ebony Queen's Apple's pain is. The Apple has been hurt before, and while no physical injury or pain remains, there is still that pain of distrust, that pain of fear over being hurt again. The coiling, sharp pain that took root in the heart that the Apple represents. And that same pain that the Apple tries so desperately to hide.

Now, let's talk about the second event, which I have to rant about again. There is. Very little online info about this event, as usually one can very easily skip it because of how easy Ebony Queen's Apple is to defeat. The only footage I've found of it is in a Solo video, with the person pressing the Skip button, so if I miss any text in that event, this is why.

And no, I couldn't check what the event was on my own, because by the time I'm writing this Ebony Queen's Apple is no longer available in thread luxcavations, and I'm not going to be doing a whole MD for the chance of finding the boss or waiting a whole week just to be able to confirm the event text. I may be insane, but I'm not that insane.

So, in this event, when the Sinners look up at the Apple's face, they gaze upon "the weathered memories within". Again, there's this idea of the original harm that was done to the Apple took place such a long time ago that its memories have become weathered. It could also refer to the pain and distrust being what made those memories weathered by them, everything the Apple can remember now tainted by these feelings.

Another interesting line in this event is the following: "When the apple browns, cracks, shrivels, and attracts lowly creatures... That is when it has met golden bliss." There's that same idea of the Apple seeking death just like Snow White's Apple. How rotting away and becoming one with the earth, finally letting go of this pain, is the one thing this Apple considers as true bliss.

Upon succeeding the skill check (Pride advantage for taking advantage of the Apple being lost in bliss, btw), an interesting line is said. "The fruit was emptied of its lifeblood long ago; only futility remained."

It's a very evocative sentence to me. It gives the image of Ebony Queen's Apple being a sort of walking corpse, something that should have already died, but something within it was keeping it clinging to life in futility. Was the moment the Apple got hurt enough to begin its distrust the moment it lost its lifeblood? Was that pain and distrust the thing that kept it going in futility?

Now, let's take a look at the actual battle info. Don't worry, this one won't be as long as the MFE one, since Ebony Queen's Apple doesn't have as much to ramble about regarding its Skills and Passives.

Ebony Queen's Apple uses two different Sin Affinities - Gluttony for attacks done with its Stems, and Pride for attacks done with its Roots. All of the Apple's body parts have two attacks each, with the exception of the Head, which only uses a single Affinity-less defense skill.

Starting with the Stem attacks:

Pale Stem - The appearance of Snow White's Apple's stems actually plays a notable role, as they are constantly described as looking like they are dying and withering, yet they're still alive and growing. Likewise, I think it is worth pointing out what Ebony Queen's Apple's stems look like as well. The descriptor of 'Pale' combined with the almost skeletal appearance in its design proper gives the image of a plant that has been dead for so long its color and structure is unrecognisable. And yet... it's still alive, despite all odds.

Distrust - In case we didn't pick up on the idea of distrust from the mid-battle event, this attack would absolutely clue us all in. Incredibly straight-forward, not much more to say here.

Now onto the Roots attacks:

Root Spike - This one is so straightforward that I don't think there's much to read into here. You could probably read way into it with the idea of distrust and how it connects to the idea of taking root, but... Nah. I think this one is just a simple physical description of the attack. They can't all be deep.

Shared Pain - An interesting fact about this specific attack is that it only starts getting used After the mid-battle event (wiki says it only enters the pool after both events but I'm Sure I've had this attack happen after only the first one, so *shrug*), which has some interesting implications.

Recall that the first event involves a Sinner digging up Ebony Queen's Apple's roots, effectively exposing the pain and distrust it feels to everyone around it. And this action is what lets the Apple use the Shared Pain skill... If you can't hide it, make a show out of it, I suppose.

Now, onto the last one, the Head's defense:

Vain Fruit - Now, I think this is a very interesting skill name, as it could have a double meaning. Vain could mean someone with a lot of pride, an excessively high opinion of oneself. However, vain could also mean something useless, futile. In a way, I think both of these apply.

On one hand, Ebony Queen's Apple absolutely fits the Limbus definition of Pride. Hiding and trying to ignore its own pain for the sake of keeping up appearances, doing something for its benefits while ignoring the negative consequences. On the other, we are directly told that the Apple's continued survival is futile, there is no life left in it, only pain and distrust. Its continued existence is in vain.

So, I think the description "Vain Fruit" fits it quite perfectly actually.

Now, I'll take a brief look at the Passives as well.

An Apple's Twilight is an interesting one. When used figuratively, twilight can describe a state of gradual decline, or a state that is obscure and hard to define. In a way, I think that's exactly the state Ebony Queen's Apple is in. Not quite alive, but not yet dead either. In the twilight of its life, you could say.

Entangling Roots is clearly connected to the first mid-battle event, where the Apple is described as tangling itself to hide its pain. These roots are what entangles the Apple, and by pulling them out, this Passive is turned off premautrely.

One Sole Root is an interesting one, because I think it comes back to the idea of Pride/Vanity. That everything is about keeping up Ebony Queen's Apple's image, keeping up that one single root that matters. Note how the Roots are the part of the Apple that is covered up by its dress, and how "breaking" the Roots doesn't necessarily break the roots themselves, but exposes them by breaking the dress covering them.

So, let's finally mention the Abno Logs, shall we?

Something very interesting about Ebony Queen's Apple is that it's noted to not be immediately hostile to the Sinners, rather trying to communicate with them telepathically. It's in stark contrast to Snow White's Apple, whose hatred and poison would actively harm anything within its vicinity.

Even more interestingly, Ebony Queen's Apple asks the Sinners to "Bring Snow White", which leads Faust to realize this Abnormality has some connection to Snow White's Apple. However, something about this is interesting - it's very clearly talking about Snow White, the princess, not the other Apple. Do both of the Apples have some sort of connection to that princess?

The next Log mentions something interesting - Faust speculated that Ebony Queen's Apple could potentially 'believe itself to be a "noble".' Consider how Snow White's Apple began to believe itself to be a princess after spending a long time thinking about her. Likewise, Ebony Queen's Apple seems to have done something similar, instead beginning to believe itself to be the evil queen, potentially also after thinking about her for a long time.

...So I have a theory here. A Lore theory, if you will.

The Snow White's Apple is an Apple who took on the heart of the witch (which, if you somehow don't know the story, is the Evil Queen in disguise), but decided to become like a princess after being hurt by her.

What is the chance that Ebony Queen's Apple is the opposite of that? An Apple who took on the heart of the princess, but decided to become like the Evil Queen after being hurt by her.

It would explain a lot, in fact. The reason why Ebony Queen's Apple isn't initially hostile towards the Sinners? Because at her heart, Snow White isn't a violent or malicious person, it's the persona of the Evil Queen that the Apple took on that is violent. What character in the fairytale would be the most likely to develop high levels of distrust? Snow White, who's being constantly hunted down by the Evil Queen through a variety of deceitful tricks. Why would the Apple look like it's been dead for a long time? Because Snow White was put into a coma, seemingly dying due to the Evil Queen's actions, before she was brought back to life.

So... decoding Ebony Queen's Apple is nice and all, but where does that leave us themes-wise?

Well, distrust is the most obvious theme here. Specifically, the pain one experiences and feels the need to hide because of the fear of being hurt again. There's also this similar idea of immortality, but in this case it's specifically the futile attempt of living after one's death, literal or figurative. A walking corpse, if you will. Finally, the role reversal theme rears its head up again, though in this case it's about a kind, soft-hearted person becoming malicious and selfish, so as to never be hurt again.

And now, we get to the big question. What does all of this mean for Ebony Stem Outis?

Well, let's look at the Awakening attack. In this attack, Outis uses Ebony Queen's Apple's Root Spike attack, which by itself doesn't tell us much. What is interesting is how she invokes this attack. The motion she makes puts to mind the leader of an army, directing their troops forward with the decisive raise of a weapon.

However, the more interesting part here I think is her dialogue line. "If this is to seize victory…" So, those who were here for my Ya Śūnyatā Tad Rūpam analysis might have an idea of where this is going.

This, I think, is Outis expressing her own justification for putting on the persona of the 'Evil Queen', of a brave, selfish commander. It's to seize victory, whether it's about the Smoke War, whatever ulterior motives she has in her current position, or perhaps even something far more personal. Because, if you win, you can't lose and be hurt further, right?

After all...

Outis has proven herself to be quite familiar with this idea, hasn't she?

Now, onto the Corrosion.

Here, the idea of Ebony Queen's Apple representing something that is already dead is further cemented, as Outis's face turns completely skeletal upon becoming Corroded. Interestingly enough, the animation she uses here is the Apple's Shared Pain attack. Perhaps Corroding under the influence of this Abnormality shows enough of her vulnerabilities for her to decide to unmask just enough to use that attack?

The dialogue line here is also very fascinating. "Just a little more…", said in a notably pained manner. Just how desperate is Outis? Just how much pain is she pushing herself through to continue on? How many 'just a little more's has she been clinging to this whole time?

Just like how Ebony Queen's Apple's attempts to keep living after death are futile, Outis's attempts to continue on despite what happened in her past are also futile. No amount of pushing through and inching forward will lead her to where she wants to be. No amount of telling herself that the Oddyssey had a purpose will actually give it one.

Finally, we're at the point where we can do some Sin Analysis.

Ebony Stem is a Gluttony-affinity E.G.O, and it's a very clear yet very interesting case of one. The hunger is very much there, but it's not what one would usually associate with Gluttony on first glance.

The hunger for survival is there, but it's not literal. In this case, it's the striving towards surviving without being hurt, surviving despite the pain distrust causes. Likewise, the hunger for progress is also there, in this case it's for trying to move forward despite what happened in the past, to keep inching 'just a little more', even though it's clearly futile, with no end in sight.

This futility, I think, is what truly makes this a Gluttony E.G.O.

Now, as for the necessary Sin Resources, they are as follows (ordered from needed most of to least of): Pride, Gluttony, Lust, Gloom.

Pride is quite important to Outis's character, and especially to this E.G.O, as she requires a whole four of it to use it. While the whole idea of her ignoring the harm she inflicts on others to get what she wants still applies here, I think there's another layer to this - ignoring the harm she experiences in doing so.

One of the main themes of Ebony Queen's Apple is how one tries to hide and ignore the pain and distrust one feels for the sake of the appearance one puts on, an incredibly Pride-coded action. Likewise, Outis has to hide her pain and insecurities to be able to put on the persona of the strong-willed, merciless commander, a highly Prideful act by Limbus's standards.

Gluttony follows after, with Outis requiring three of it to use Ebony Stem. Due to it being the Sin Affinity of the E.G.O, most of the points I made while talking about that still remain. Outis needs to wish to survive without pain and keep moving forward despite it being futile to use Ebony Stem, simple enough.

Then, a surprise guest.

Lust. Outis requires two of that Sin to use Ebony Stem. While Lust often represents indulgence, I believe this case is very similar to the case of Lust in Ya Śūnyatā Tad Rūpam. It represents Outis's dedication to her personal goals, how she has to be willing to do anything to fulfill them to gain access to this E.G.O. Plus, there is that additional layer of her wishing to not be hurt, though that can count as several different Sins depending on the context, and it's something I would put under Gluttony for this E.G.O specifically.

Finally, there's Gloom. Outis requires only one of it to use Ebony Stem. It's a small, but nonetheless important part of this E.G.O. I believe Gloom here represents the pain and trauma that led to Outis developing this behavior in the first place. The harm that was inflicted on her in the past, and the distrust that clings to her afterwards. It's a small part due to Outis's highly goal-oriented nature, causing her to focus on other aspects of Ebony Stem, suchs as reaching the goal of victory... But that hurt is still there. That piercing, sharp pain coiling around her heart, that she's always aware of at the back of her mind, no matter how much she wishes to hide it.

Of course, her Passive here being named Stem of Distrust only drives the point home even further.

Something interesting about Ebony Stem Outis's Sin Resistances is that, while very close to Ebony Queen's Apple's, they're not exactly the same. Both the Apple and Outis are Fatal to Wrath and Pride, as it's what can easily tear down their masks - the will to defy their commanding presence and tear it down, knowing that exposing their pain will hurt them in the process. However, what they differ in is the Sins that are Ineffective (x0.5) against them, and the ones they Endure (x0.75).

For Ebony Queen's Apple, its Ineffective Resistance is Gloom, and it's Endured Resistance is Envy. Meanwhile, for Ebony Stem Outis, the Ineffective Resistance is Gluttony, while Gloom is Endured.

I think the reason they're protected from the influences of those Sins is, well... They're the reasons why both the Apple and Outis put on those personas in the first place. They're both protected from Gloom because the whole reason they act like 'Evil Queens' is to avoid getting further hurt, with it being much more important to the Apple.

The Apple endures Envy because its pain likely comes from the influence of a single person - the real Ebony Queen. As such, by mimicking her, the Apple is effectively ensuring that it won't be as hurt and influences by her as it was in the past. Likewise, Gluttony is Ineffective against Ebony Stem Outis as that's the main reason she puts on this mask, to continue moving forward, to keep on living after what happened, regardless of its futility.

There is... certainly something going on with Outis that we don't fully know about yet. Something about her two Gluttony Affinity E.G.Os having themes of distrusting other people, and all of her E.G.Os having some form of idea of putting on a front that's far more aggressive or selfish or commanding than the real self might be...

Girl, what is with you.

#tearychildren #ask #lu speaketh #limbus company #outis #outis lcb #ebony stem outis #lcb analysis #i will say #this new format i've been doing with e.g.o analyses #where i go far more in depth than i used to #is extremely fun to write #maybe once i'm out of requests i might revisit some of my old analyses #the roseate desire one especially feels somewhat dated #as i've written that one before my opinion on what each of the sins means was solidified #but who knows #anyway enjoy another essay length analysis

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