#i have so many feelings about Patroclus :( | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

gay-dorito-dust · 11 months

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Hello! I loved your last hobie fic btw it was really good!!

Imagine that in hobies universe you died but when he travels to miles universe he sees you alive 😭 and then the reader introduces themselves to him the same way they did in his universe

Keep feeding us with these ATSV fics 😈😈

Have a great day!!!

Thank you for enjoying my Hobie Brown stuff anon cuz he’s been invading my mind recently. I hope to god this is okay for ya. 🦦

Hobie remembered first meeting you as though it were yesterday, you were within an alleyway vandalising the walls with your spray paint, he happened to be passing by when one of your masterpieces caught his eye; it was of him…well him as Spider-Man clocking a cartoonish Osborne -appropriately adorned with devil horns and a tail- in the head with his eyes crossed out in red spray paint as though he were dead.

It got a good chuckle out of him that was for sure and from that alone he knew he had to know you more on a personal level. ‘Whatcha gonna call that?’ He asked aloud, making you jolt, you were pretty sure you had chosen a spot where you weren’t going to get caught by the authorities or those that’d grass you up for expressing how you truly felt about Osborne and all those just like him. You shrugged, looking up at your finished product before looking back over at Hobie, ‘dunno yet,’ you told him truthfully, ‘my working titles are either anarchy incarnate or death to capitalism.’

Hobie hummed in approval, but he thought you could do better, ‘how about anarchy is the death of capitalism?’ He suggested and he couldn’t never forget the light in your eyes upon hearing his working title, that in the midst of your excitement you had grabbed him by the arm, ‘that’s it! That’s what I should call it, you’re a genius man!’ You cried before realising what you did and immediately removed your hand from his arm, ‘sorry about that.’ Hobie dismissed your apology by slinging an arm over your shoulder. ‘Nah, don’t give me that shit, you shouldn’t have to apologise for being yourself for that’s what they want you to do.’

‘I don’t think I ever got your name.’ You said. ‘Hobie. Hobie brown and may I get to know the name of the amazing artist behind this.’ Hobie gestured to the spray painting. ‘Y/n l/n.’ You replied. ‘Well y/n, I think we’re going to get along quite well.’ And you did.

So when your untimely death happened, Hobie felt as though he were Achilles having lost his Patroclus. He cradled your body into his arms even long after you had said your final words, ‘keep fighting the good fight, my little anarchist.’ and much longer after it had already gone cold. You had told him that you were heading out to go spray paint with some people you’ve met and the worst soon came when despite knowing that you didn’t have to, you still went out of your way to act as a distraction so that the rest may escape; which resulted in the way that it did.He knew he should’ve gone with you that day because then maybe you would still be alive and taking the piss out of him for worrying about you but he didn’t, so you weren’t.

Ever since then Hobie had made it his goal to keep fighting for not only his chase but yours as well in your memory. He made you a memorial in the exact same place where you first met, always paying it a visit whenever he felt as though he needed you with him, which has lead him to start talking to your spray pairings as though they were actually you. There was without a shadow of a doubt that you were quite possibly one of the greatest artists to have ever lived, alongside with being an avid inspiration to many to the youths who felt as though they had no way of expressing themselves when feeling slighted by the society they were born in. Hell you even inspired him! So much so that there were a multitude of songs he would perform that depicted a individual with stardust in their eyes, a rebellious fire in their heart and a insatiably need to insight the themes of anarchy within anything they touched.

After your death Hobie kept a good portion of your things; such as your spray cans that would never get used, your clothes that still clung onto the very last essence of you much like he did and even kept the picture you took together after helping you finish a project you had been wanting to pursue for a long while; and who would’ve thought that it would be him, not as Spider-Man, just good old Hobie Brown with the message, ‘keep fighting the good fight, my little anarchist.’

So when he caught himself walking down a alleyway much like he did long ago but this time in a completely new place, he felt as though he was being hit with a wave of de ja vu when his ears picked up on the familiar hissing sound of a spray can. It was like he was back there again and if his memory serves him right, he knew what was to come next the moment he, Gwen and Miles made it into a clearing where they were greeted with the sight of someone’s back as they were deeply engrossed with their own handy work. ‘You’re going to love them Hobie, they’re like super cool and awesome.’ Gwen told him but her words went in one ear and out the next as he stared up at the spray painting of Miles as Spider-Man mid swing; it was beautiful without a doubt but they style in which it was drawn was all too familiar.

‘Whatcha gonna call that?’ Hobie had said without realising it until you jolted before turning to look directly at him, regaining your composure, ‘dunno yet.’ You shrugged and your voice sounded like an echo to the past for Hobie who so desperately wanted to pinch himself in that moment. ‘my working titles are either a bright new era or rising above all expectations.’ Hobie didn’t say anything for he knew he was going to say something that would only scare you away, just because you were another version of his y/n didn’t mean you shared the same memories; to you, he was just another spider-man from another reality, he wasn’t your Hobie despite how he wish he was but he knew he couldn’t put that on you.

He also couldn’t blame you for being alive while his version of you was dead. It wouldn’t be fair on you for being blamed for something that wasn’t your fault to begin with and it wouldn’t be fair on him either, as despite how many times he made himself believe that he has accepted your death, his heart would remind him that he truly hadn’t. You were such a pivotal part of his life that he couldn’t seem to let go of. ‘Hmm, both titles sound cool but I think we can do better.’ Miles pipped up, breaking Hobie out of his headspace that was running rampant with all the best memories you shared together. ‘How about…the bright new era of rising above all expectations?’ Hobie interjected.

You made a face at the suggestion before a wide smile spread across your face as you lost yourself in your excitement and grabbed ahold of his arm like you did when your first met, ‘that’s it! That’s what I should call it! You’re a genius dude, thank you.’ But before you could remove your hand from his arm, Hobie grasped your hand and held it firmly. ‘I don’t believe I told you my name, it’s Hobie by the way.’ Your excused his actions as an exchange of formal greeting and grasped onto his hand with the same about of force. ‘Nice to meet you Hobie, I’m y/n.’

‘I know’ is what Hobie desperately wanted to say but kept it all contained under a strained smile.

#spiderman across the spiderverse #across the spiderverse #spider man: across the spider verse #spiderman atsv #spiderman atsv fic #spiderman atsv imagine #spiderman atsv x you #spiderman atsv x reader #spiderman atsv imagines #atsv x reader #spiderverse x reader #hobie brown imagines #hobie brown fluff #hobie brown x you #hobie brown imagine #hobie x reader #hobie brown x reader #spiderpunk x reader

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theoi-crow · 2 months

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The humans in Greek Mythology are the mega rich and powerful:

In my college classes people are often shocked when I tell them my favorite part of Greek mythology is the gods themselves and I'm not a big fan of the humans.

99% of my classmates prefer the humans in mythos, especially the ones that stick it to the gods like Sisyphus and feel bad for humans like Kassandra and Helen who have been wronged by the gods because "they're just like us." My classmates and teachers hate the gods and don't understand why anyone in modern times would want to worship such violent and selfish beings whenever I point out there are still people who worship them. They hold onto the idea that people in mythology embody the human experience of being oppressed by terrible gods and fate and we should feel bad for them because "they're human just like us" but they forget that the people in Greek Mythology are NOT just like us. They are more relatable to medieval royalty, colonizers and ultra rich politicians who make laws and decisions on wars and the fates of others, especially the poor and the very vulnerable.

Every hero or important human in Greek Mythology is either some form of royalty or mega rich politician/priest-priestess (of course this is with the exception of people who are explicitly stated to be poor like the old married couple in the myth where Zeus and Hermes pretend to be panhandlers). All of them have an ancient Greek lifestyle more relatable to Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, and especially to British royalty during the British empire, than the average person.

All of them.

Odysseus, Patroclus, Theseus, Helen of Troy, Kassandra, Diomedes, Agamemnon, Perseus, Hercules, Aeneas, Paris, Any human who has a divine parent or is related to one, etc. Although sometimes the story omits it, it is heavily implied that these are people who own hundreds or even thousands of slaves, very poor farmers and the tiny barely there working class as royal subjects.

They are the ones who make laws and whose decisions massively affect the fates of so many people. So no, they can't just be forgiven for some little whim, because that little whim affects the literal lives of everyone under their rule. By being spoiled they've just risked the lives of thousands of people and possibly even gotten them killed like when Odysseus' audacity got every single slave and soldier in his ships killed or when Patroclus as a kid got upset and killed another kid for beating him at a game. (A normal person wouldn't kill another person just for winning a game but royalty and those who think they're above the law do it all the time, plus the class status of the child wasn't mentioned but the way he didn't think he'd get in trouble implies the kid was of lower class, possibly the child of a slave or a foreign merchant.)

The gods get a bad reputation for punishing the humans in mythology but, if not them, who else is going to keep them accountable when they are the law?

And whose to say the humans beneath them weren't praying to the gods in order to keep their masters in check?

Apollo is the god in charge of freeing slaves, Zeus is the god of refugees, immigrants and homeless people, Ares is the protector of women, Artemis protects children, Aphrodite is the goddess of the LGBT community, Hephaestus takes care of the disabled, etc. It wouldn't be surprising if the gods are punishing the ultra rich and powerful in these myths because the humans under their rulership prayed and sent them as they did historically.

Every time someone asks me if I feel bad for a human character in a myth, I think about the many lives affected by the decision that one human character made and if I'm being completely honest, I too would pray to the gods and ask them to please punish them so they can make more careful decisions in the future because:

They are not just like us.

We are the farmers, a lot of our ancestors were slaves, we are the vulnerable being eaten by capitalism and destroyed by the violence colonialism created. We are the poor subjects that can only pray and hope the gods will come and correct whatever selfish behavior the royal house and mega rich politicians are doing above us.

And that's why I pray to the gods, because in modern times I'm dealing with modern Agamemnons who would kill whatever family members they have to in order to reach their end goal, I'm dealing with everyday modern Achilles who would rather see their own side die because they couldn't keep their favorite toy and would gladly watch their subjects die if it means they eventually get their way. The ones that let capitalism eat their country and it's citizens alive so long as it makes them more money. These are our modern "demigods," politicians who swear they are so close to God that they know what he wants and so they pass laws that benefit only them and claim these laws are ordained by God due to their close connection just like how Achilles can speak to the gods because of his demigod status via his mother.

Look at the news, these are humans that would be mythical characters getting punished by Greek gods which is why anything Greco-Roman is jealousy guarded by the rich and powerful and is inaccessible to modern worshippers because Ivy League schools like Harvard and Cambridge make sure to keep it that way. That's what we're dealing with. These are the humans these mythical beings would be because:

In our modern times the humans in mythos would be the politicians and mega rich that are currently ruining our society and trying to turn it into a world where only the rich can manipulate wars and laws, just like they do in mythology.

Fuck them.

I literally have so much more to add about my disdain for them and I didn't even touch on the obvious ancient Greek propaganda.

#greek gods #Greek mythology #hellenic polytheism #helpol #mythology #ancient greek tragedy

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spocktheestallion · 2 years

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for a tragedy the iliad is pretty funny. compiled some of my favorite things about it (not in chronological order)

- patroclus barely speaks for most of the book but EVERYBODY loves him. like he’s literally the entire greek camp’s precious meow meow. the ORIGINAL sweet little meow meow. even the GODS are sad and feel bad when he dies. even HOMER loves patroclus, always calling him “faultless patroclus” “my patroclus” “gentle patroclus” “sweet patroclus” WE GET IT. achilles, briseis, menelaus, ajax, literally every member of the greek camp is down ATROCIOUS for patroclus all bc he’s just one Really Nice Dude. just one very Sweet and Polite Fella. one Extra Special Guy <3 his whole narrative purpose is simply to be everyone’s special little scrunkly

- in one of the MANY passages where achilles is lamenting about how sad it is that patroclus is dead he promises patroclus’ corpse that he will have many deep-bosomed trojan and dardanian women weep for him. he tells his dead buddy “i will get the absolute THICKEST hoes with the BIGGEST mommy milkers for your funeral” honestly? id be honored

- all the arguments escalate so quickly. an old man very politely appeals to agamemnon to pretty please give his daughter back and offers him a huge fortune for her and agamemnon calls him a crotchety old bitch and tells him he’ll fucking kill him if he ever sees him again

- that same old man is a priest of apollo. you know, the plague god? anyway priest calls in a favor and apollo curses the greeks with a plague

- to address this, achilles decides to resolve it by calling all the greeks together and passive aggressively going “HM! i WONDER what could have caused a PLAGUE! it’s almost like we OFFENDED the PLAGUE GOD somehow. now WHAT could WE (cough agamemnon) done to offend the PLAGUE GOD?????” all in front of agamemnon

- zeus spends most of the book desperately trying to keep the gods OUT of the war. then once he’s finally had enough he just calls them all together and says “go nuts” and then they do

- artemis talks shit on the battlefield so hera calls her a bitch, steals her bow, and beats her with it. artemis then goes back to zeus and cries

- polydamas says to hector “hey you killed patroclus and achilles is gonna be fucking pissed. we should probably go back to the city while we can” and hector calls him a bitch and tells him to stfu. achilles then chases them back to the city and hector decides to stay outside and get killed by achilles instead of going in with the rest of the army bc he didn’t wanna hear polydamas say “i told you so”

- diomedes is about to fight with a guy called glaucus but then they realize their ancestors were friends or something so they decide not to kill each other, and diomedes says “hey! why don’t we even trade armor! :) just as a show of friendship! :))” and glaucus is like “yeah sure!” and gives diomedes his really nice gold plated armor while glaucus gets diomedes’ shitty plain bronze armor

- achilles makes a bitchy comment to his horses about leaving patroclus to die and the horse momentarily gains the ability to talk just to tell achilles it wasn’t THEIR goddamn fault, tells achilles he’s gonna die soon, and then goes back to being a normal horse.

- zeus with his daughters: oh child ❤️ oh my dear ❤️ oh there there i didn’t really mean it ❤️ sweetie why don’t you go help the greeks?❤️

- zeus with his sons: “ares you fucking donkey”

- everyone calling paris a stupid coward bitch every time they see him. all of troy fucking hates him. hector fucking hates him. helen fucking hates him.

- paris getting dressed up in fancy armor and prancing to the front lines going “i’ll fight ANY of you greeks!” and menelaus (the guy whose wife he stole) goes “alright bet” and paris nearly pisses his pants and tries to hide but then his brother hector calls him a piece of shit and tells him he hopes he dies and makes him fight menelaus. menelaus promptly ROCKS HIS SHIT. literally starts dragging him by his helmet like a rag doll, would’ve killed him if aphrodite hadn’t teleported paris outta there (BOO)

#the iliad #iliad memes #homer’s iliad #achilles #patroclus

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izzyhandslightofmylife · 4 months

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Official statement on why Izzy's death affected me so much

Our Flag Means Death, is, at it’s core, is a show that focuses on queer joy- a form of therapy for those that have been raised on queerbaiting, shipping minor side characters, or watching, when nothing else is available, queer tragedies. You know how it goes- the two main characters, both male, have chemistry. They say things to each other that seem weirdly like declarations of love. They look at each other with love in their eyes. You see these things and the main man gets married off to a badly written, unfinished female character and is left feeling empty. The best friend dies for the main character to live. When everyone talks about how cute the main couple are, you want to scream all of a sudden, because nobody can see this love story play out except you. It’s queer, it’s tragic, and nobody else can understand it.

Not Our Flag Means Death. From the moment it aired, it was praised as a show with unabashed queer joy, which means more than I can possibly say. The two main male characters meet, they have chemistry, and they fall in love. It’s not implied, or hinted at, but blatantly obvious. Their romances and the queer romances around them attracted so many queer fans who felt that after so many years, this type of show was a vindication for what they had been through with other media.

In this show, piracy itself was that of a found family. Though Stede Bonnet and the crew of the Revenge start off with many differences, the core of the show centers around a theme that many queer audiences are attracted to: found family. The Revenge was depicted as a safe space, where everyone could express themselves freely, a refuge from a world of judgment. Queerness was not only accepted but normalized on The Revenge. No homophobia, no coming out, no typical complications of queer romance. Just love and safety. Warmth, which was Ed Teach wished for in purgatory. Which was what he found on the Revenge. The ship was a safe space that so many queer audiences had dreamed of.

Well, a safe space except for one person: Izzy Hands, Blackbeard’s First Mate, who was a man painfully stuck in the wrong genre. This is the general consensus by both fans and the cast: Izzy, Edward and their crew had been in a gritty action movie, whereas Stede and his crew were in a muppet movie of sorts. While the majority of Blackbeard’s crew quickly acclimates to and celebrates the change, Izzy doesn’t.

And right away, many fans felt a deep attraction to Izzy. The reason that Izzy couldn’t get Edward to love him was because, in the end, the only way that Izzy knew how to love was through blood. To give and receive pain in an action movie is one of the greatest forms of love, but Izzy fails to realize that Ed is not in an action movie anymore. He is happy with this stability, and the reason that so many people felt Izzy’s presence so was strongly was that he wasn’t.

So many queer people are, in a way, addicted to tragedy. Tragedy is all that is represented in queer media for the most part, or was until very recently. Take Achilles and Patroclus, one of the most celebrated and recognized queer love stories of both ancient and modern times. Why that one? There are other greek love stories, many of them queer. The tragedy of it- Patroclus’ death and Achilles’ rage- made it all the more appealing. Many in the audience of Our Flag Means Death were not comedy fans, they were horror or drama fans, attracted to a comedy because of the love story. But Izzy, to them, was a physical representation of who they were, carrying an awareness of homophobia, of blood and pain that so many queer relationships had previously been illustrated by (i.e. Hannibal). Though Ed may not have understand this type of affection, the audience did- Izzy’s Otherness from the crew despite it’s safety, his expressions of love and his unrequited love story were all things that the audience were familiar with feeling.

If Ed and Stede were good queer representation, Ed and Izzy, for example, were a foil of that. They were evil, messed up, and fed into the worst parts of each other because it brought them closer. This is a theme present in a lot of queer media, and by extension, queer lives: “if you love me, Henry, you don’t love me in a way I understand”, is an excerpt classic queer poem about unrequited love that fits the situation. The very reason Izzy stuck in people’s heads because he was of a different genre. His grittiness and bitterness made sense to the audience. They saw Izzy and saw what was familiar. He was exquisitely written, simultaneously making even casual audiences both hate him, and against all odds, find him oddly endearing. The idea of this man sacrificing every inch of himself for an unrequited love was a concept of tragedy, leaking into a comedic show.

So fans projected onto Izzy. He was a catalyst for the heartache, for the audience’s sheer inability to have a happy show. For one reason or another, some of the audience simply couldn’t live with a show that was all fantastical, which I theorize is because they couldn’t see themselves in it. So Izzy became the epitome of queer suffering: pining longingly after another man that couldn’t understand him. This projection of suffering, however, led to a new wish: happiness for Izzy. If Izzy in Season 1 was a tragedy, assimilating him into the found family in Season 2 would have elevated the safe sense of the ship all the more. It would have proved to so many of these Izzy Fans that yes, even though you view yourself as unloveable, even though you see yourself as Israel Hands, Villain, even he can be loved too. Why can’t you be?

And Season 2, for the most part, delivered beyond our wildest dreams. Izzy had people who cared about him. And though the genre shifted into the darker, Izzy himself shifted slightly to the comedic side as well. His life, which had been centered for so long around a man that didn’t reciprocate his feelings, was gone. He started a new life, and this life, again, focused on queer joy. The queer joy from Season 1 was suddenly for everyone, even those like Izzy that couldn’t have understood it. He sang, he whittled, he talked about feelings, he dressed in drag. Many elder queer fans also saw Izzy as another metaphor, too: that queer joy can be attained overtime. You don’t have to have had it the whole time, but you can accept yourself even when you are older. The message of Izzy was one of resilience and stubbornness, one that the queer community needed to hear: that you don’t have to be like this, you don’t have to create pain for yourself. You don’t need to watch tragedies all the time. You, too, can heal from the past.

And then, the season finale happened. By this point, many argued that Izzy had stolen the show. Con O’Neil’s acting mixed with his general arc of self acceptance had made him a fan favorite. In the last episode, it is Izzy himself who sums it up perfectly, accepting that he belongs somewhere despite his pain and flaws. Despite the darkness within him, he was still accepted and loved. He says it right to the face of Prince Ricky, who thinks himself above it all. That piracy, a metaphor for otherness, wasn’t actually about being alone; it was about finding others that understood you when nobody else could.

Listen, this show is known for it’s nonsensicality. In the finale of Season 1, Lucius is thrown overboard by Ed and survives by simply swimming to another ship. Stede reunites with his crew by sailing a rowboat. Buttons turns into a seagull. Stede stabs Ed for a comedic bit. Earlier in the season, Izzy himself gets shot and survives. This queer joy show was celebrated for being, well, joyful. Even when things like getting thrown overboard did happen, they were, ultimately, a blip in the character’s journey towards acceptance, healing, etc, which was what made the show unique. Our Flag Means Death, whose audience had been living for years off of the “Bury your gays” trope, was adored because it illustrated a world where things didn’t have to be that way. A place where the impossible, such as Izzy Hands being loved, could happen. This show was one of survival.

But not for the one person that was seen to struggle with this concept the most. Not for the one person that was a metaphor for belonging in this place, who became, over the course of a season, the embodiment of the message itself. Not for the Unicorn, the very symbol of this magical, nonsensical ship. Not for the most stubborn, most indestructible, most enduring (queer) person in the show. Not for Izzy Hands.

This trope, honestly, was one that many have seen before, both in mainstream and queer media. A character, previously shown to be a villain or else to have gone through a lot of pain, is shown to heal, to get better, and then to die in order to “complete their arc”. This trope is common: Loki, Cas. even Ted Lasso, who doesn’t die but goes back to the very place that broke him in the first place. But the reason that Izzy’s death, while it might have been expected in another show, felt like a betrayal in this one is because it was known for subverting those tropes. From the “Bury Your Gays” to the “Up For Interpretation”, it was known to look those tropes in the eyes and say “fuck you, these people deserve to be happy”. And this did happen! Except for the one character who’s healing journey was one of the most relatable, at least to queer audiences.

What also made it so jarring was that all the other characters got to be happy, except for the one that had struggled with the idea of happiness the most. In the scene immediately after Izzy is buried, Lucius and Pete get married. In the scene after, a montage of queer joy and found family is shown amongst the whole crew. In the final scene, Ed and Stede, our main queer couple, are shown healing themselves and starting a new life together. The last shot, however, showed Izzy’s grave, visited by Buttons the seagull while Ed and Stede had dinner. A tragedy in it’s finest. It wouldn’t have been difficult for Izzy to live. Because, in the end, his death meant nothing. His healing meant nothing. He died and was moved on from in a matter of seconds. He was, as I mentioned, the catalyst for tragedy, more specifically, queer tragedy. But because of this, of his genre, Izzy didn’t get to live. He had to die in order for the rest of the characters to keep living in this fantasy world. This death was, in a way, a preservation of these other love stories.

I maintain, however, that it would have meant more if Izzy had lived. If he had been able to show to us that yes, despite what you have been through, despite what you may have inflicted upon yourself, you can switch genres. It’s possible. Izzy’s survival up until that point had been a profound testament to many that it is possible to heal, that queerness does not have to mean sadness. It would have continued to be a testament to that if only Izzy had lived. And so, this pirate that we latched onto, not in spite of his darkness but because of it, was buried on land on the side of the road.

As a side note, many previous incidences in the story point to the idea even though Ed and Stede will definitely stay together, it’s uncertain if the inn would have worked out. It’s likely that, being a whim, those two might have chosen to move, or go back to the sea, or sail to China. If this is true, they would have left Izzy’s grave by itself, like a family pet buried in the yard. If this is true, Izzy Hands, a metaphor for belonging, would rot alone.

Long live the tragedy addicts. Long live the Richard Siken poems. Long live Izzy Hands.

*When I talk about the "fandom" I am referring to the canyon.

#izzy hands #izzy hands apologist #izzy canyon #our flag means death #ofmd finale #ofmd #izzy hands death #izzy deserved better #ofmd fanfic #i guess #ofmd canyon #con o'neill #tragedy #oh uh happy new year #ofmd meta

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dianadragonfly · 2 months

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So, I was thinking about different fandoms and the fics that I love. What makes a good, satisfying fan fic? I realize it has 100% to do with the canon.

Take BBC Sherlock. I struggle so much with AUs where their beginnings are different. Sherlock is an astronaut, assigned to work with scientist John. (This is an example, not a dig at any specific fic). I can't. I can't. I realize BBC Sherlock is also an AU from Doyle, but BBC Sherlock and John are so fucking tied to "A Study In Pink" and John handing his phone to Sherlock that everything else seems false. Fun premise, but not the Sherlock and John I know.

A satisfying Johnlock fan fic needs to change the ending of the BBC canon. To think of these two men, who love each other so much, just continuing their parallel existences, never becoming anything more than crime-fighting buds, is just. . . it doesn't fit. It doesn't fit the show. It doesn't fit the characters Moffit and Gatiss created, even if they decided to not make it happen (as a special 'fuck you' to their fans). It's heartbreaking.

My favorite fics are fixits -- many of them deal with the aftermath of Euros and Mary, or some do "canon intercepts" and deal with Seasons 3 and 4 differently. Still, anything but John and Sherlock raising Rosie together as partners/lovers/husbands in 221B with Mrs. Hudson downstairs feels like a lie. (Some canon intercepts write out Rosie completely.)

If I had to write sequels to BBC canon, I'd pick "Drawn to Stars" by @totallysilvergirl or "Never Turn Your Back on the Sea” by @discordantwords . There's a thousand other ones, but those ring the most true to me.

"Heartstopper" fics don't have a lot of room to mess with the ending. Anything other than Charlie and Nick happily growing old together is so far out of canon and out of character that it doesn't even seem like it's worth exploring. There are a handful of ones that have one character or the other dying, but mostly, we understand right away that Charlie and Nick are endgame. We are 100% aligned with canon and creator on this.

Anything that isn't true to this ending rings as false as anything that isn't true to Sherlock's beginning. Fun to read, but not our characters.

With Nick and Charlie being so young in canon, their beginnings are so much malleable. Sherlock and John are tied to that lab. Nick and Charlie? not so much. They meet in grammar school. They meet in University. They meet after a hot hookup at a club in their 20s. They meet after broken marriages to Imogen and Ben. They meet during Nick's rugby career or as fellow teachers. They meet at gyms, at animal rescues, at psychiatric hospitals. They are single parents, University professors, rock star drummers, hot shot authors and academics. Their beginning isn't fixed. But the end always is.

I have so many favorites but I just re-read "Lavender Fields" and I think it's a perfect Nick and Charlie meeting up in their 30s fics. There's a ton of University fics too.

I haven't read nearly as many fics from other fandoms, so I don't know their quirks. I'm finding that fandoms that don't have a m/m pairing are hard to find a lot of fics for. (That's a whole 'nother post). But other m/m fandoms seem to have canon-compliant extra scenes. (Wanna see Achilles and Patroclus get freaky in a tent somewhere? Here ya go. That being said, there's one about Achilles waiting for Patroclus in the Underworld that breaks. my. damn. heart.)

Anyways, I need to do a serious look-through of other fandoms to see how this plays out.

I should add the links here to the fics I mention, just because.

#bbc sherlock #heartstopper #alice oseman #fanfic #johnlock #au

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dootznbootz · 4 months

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I don't think Greek Mythology retellings/adaptions/inspired/etc. are necessarily "evil"...but I DO think people REALLY need to understand that there's a huge difference between the actual mythology and certain media.

I feel like people have to basically do a "Fandom ___" to say the different versions. Like "PJO ___", "Hades game ___", "TSOA ___". For it to be understood that these depictions are DIFFERENT. I'm saying this as someone who grew up reading PJO and still has a soft spot for it. But as someone who really loves Greek Mythology as well, I sometimes get really SAD.

I'm going to use the comparison of Howl's Moving Castle with it's Book Vs. Movie. I enjoy both!!! But they are honestly very different. In the movie there is no "sister swap", Markle isn't a young teenager, Sophie doesn't throw weed killer at Howl, and many more moments. But I enjoy both because even though there are changes they still keep components that are ingrained into the characters!

In some Greek Myth retellings/adaptations/stories/etc., characters are...SO different from the source material. That's fine...Choose what you want with your story... But folks should know that the modern adaptations are NOT the source material!!!

It bothers me that a lot of these wonderful myths and stories are twisted up and seen so differently because of a modern version of them. You can have that character be "awful" or a certain way in your story. But I almost feel that as fans, it's not good to generalize them or see it as "This is the truth". People are hating the mythological figure when it's only in that interpretation they are like that.

In PJO, Ares is "Zeus' favorite", isn't a good dad, a misogynist, etc. The actual myths? One of his Epithets is LITERALLY "Feasted by Women", in the Iliad everybody basically bullies him with Zeus literally saying he hates him. He cries when he learns one of his sons is killed in the war. He literally kills someone about to rape his daughter. Ares isn't perfect but it makes me sad with how he's viewed and talked about when it's only in PJO he's like that. Same with Dionysus. Read the Bacchae, you'll love it.

In Lore Olympus, Apollo rapes Persephone (noticing the fact that modern takes on the myths add rapes where there never were hmmmmm) when he never did in any of the myths.

In TSOA, Thetis is cruel when in the Iliad, she is such a loving mother to Achilles. She grieved alongside her son over Patroclus. Also with Agamemnon. In Ipheginia at Aulis, Agamemnon is a MESS. He adored his children.

In Circe, Odysseus is viewed as a selfish man who ONLY hurts others and doesn't care about his family when that is LITERALLY his one consistent character trait. HE is actually the one who is the victim of rape. Circe was never raped.

Medusa is only a victim in Ovid's, a Roman man, works. Not in GREEK mythology. She was just a cool monster. Leave Perseus alone. Poseidon and Medusa actually had a consensual relationship in Greek Mythology!

These adaptations/retellings/inspired by/etc. whatever anybody wants to call them, are not the real myths! They may be similar in some ways but to just generalize them or hate the deity/mythological figure because of something they did in the new media feels fucked up!

You can enjoy these new stories. There's nothing wrong with that!!! But know they're not the real myths. Maybe even label it as "I hate ____'s version of ____". As that makes it clear what version you're talking about.

#I'm probably wording this very weird. I'm sorry for that haha #idk I'm getting sad #I'm clutching the gods and my special lil heroes to my chest to protect them from the hate.#this is silly but...idk had to say it :(#anti circe #anti madeline miller #sorry but that book makes me the sad™#greek mythology #tagamemnon #Mad rambles #shot by odysseus #PJO is special to me but I'm protecting the Gods >:( They can suck in PJO. to say the suck in the myths when you don't know the actual #myths is...sad #tw rape #<because so many adaptations ALSO add them when they're not there!!!!#save me morally gray circe #essay

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princessofopus · 11 months

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!!This comment only serves as an example. I read similar statements on a daily basis!!

The Iliad, as a complex literary work, does not explicitly define the nature of Achilles and Patroclus's relationship in precise terms. While their bond is portrayed as exceptionally strong, the text leaves room for interpretation. Consequently, scholars and readers have different viewpoints on the nature of their relationship, ranging from friendship to romantic love. Engaging in definitive statements about their sexuality overlooks the inherent ambiguity and richness of the text, reducing it to a simplified binary discussion.

Moreover, what many people seem to forget is that the Iliad is not a historical account. As of now, we cannot determine if the Trojan War happened. The information we have suggests that there might have been conflict in the same region during the time. However, especially the characters associated with the war, including figures like Achilles and Patroclus, are more likely mythological constructs, literary inventions, rather than historical individuals. Hence, talking about their sexuality, many people ask questions that are wrong and useless in the most absurd and mind-numbingly stupid way.

By examining the text, we can infer that Homer portrayed a strong emotional bond between Achilles and Patroclus. This emotional connection is not presented in a negative light, suggesting that such relationships were not necessarily viewed as inappropriate or problematic in ancient Greek society. No, it indicates that emotional male bonds were valued and celebrated at that time - or at least by Homer (who is also a semi-mythical person). What we also do by asking questions surrounding their sexuality is attempting to apply modern concepts of sexuality, such as the contemporary understanding of being gay, to ancient texts. No, Homer certainly didn't portray them as gay - because "being gay" simply did not exist before the invention of the concept of homosexuality. Did he, however, make sure to explain - in one way or another - that their relationship was purely platonic and devoid of all romantic/sexual nature? No, he did not. Why is it then that so many people feel entitled to not only ask fundamentally wrong questions but also to shame people who like the interpretation of them being a romantic couple? You're making this way too easy. The only questions we can answer by reading the Iliad are:

1) How does Homer portray male bonds and relationships in the Iliad, and what does it reveal about ancient Greek society's attitude towards such bonds?

2) What recurring mythological themes or narratives are present in the Iliad, suggesting their popularity during the time of the composition?

3) As readers, how do we interpret the nature of the relationship between the literary figures Patroclus and Achilles in the Iliad?

I swear, if I see one more person saying "They weren't gay", like they went back in time, proved that the Trojan War actually happened, explained the concept of homosexuality to Achilles and Patroclus and got them to come out to them, Imma go and fight a river.

#greek mythology #greek myth #the iliad #patroclus x achilles #patroclus and achilles #patrochilles #tsoa #the song of achilles

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deira886 · 9 months

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Ok, first of all Nimona has ended with my poor mental health.

I have been thinking about this for too long so welcome to my Ted Talk: Ballister and Ambrosius are Patroclus and Achilles in medieval-futuristic font.

Physically they are the friking same (brunette with dark skin x blond with pale skin) and yeah, I know that there are soooo many mlm relationships like this, but hear me out....

Ballister and Patroclus both go to a new strange institution where they are the freaks and they just are on their own. At some point they meet a popular and blond kid (that is also the descendant of a deity) who becomes their best friend/lover.

Ballister and Patroclus are clearly in love with their mates, but Ambrosius and Achilles are so so (soooo) enamoured that at the end of the story they would give their lives and reputation in order to save their partner.

The story of tsoa and Nimona is clearly different, but I couldn't get this information more time on my own. Feel free to discuss this topic in the comments and have a nice day/afternoon/night :)

#ballister boldheart #ballister blackheart #ambrosius goldenloin #ballister x ambrosius #goldenheart #nimona #patroclus #achilles #patrochilles #tsoa #i need to talk about it #english is not my first language #tags are fun #have a nice day

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gemsofgreece · 7 months

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https://lithub.com/enduring-epics-emily-wilson-and-madeline-miller-on-breathing-new-life-into-ancient-classics/

What's with Madeline miller and Emily wilson claiming that they are bringing something new in Greek mythology and being applauded for it?

Emily also is a translator and from what i read completely changed the meaning of words and characters like calling Agamemnon a cannibal king. A translator's work isn't making their own story on top of the old one.

It's disrespectful to Homer's work and he gets overshadowed by modern authors that push modern ideologies into classic works that should have stayed neutral.

Why are western writers like this ??? 😖😖😖 I read the interview and I would say some parts of it were okay but I will mention here the ones that gave me secondhand embarrassment:

My god, this can’t be real. The literature class in American school has messed up many brains. Dogface, κύνοψ in Ancient but surviving in Modern as σκυλομούρης - σκυλομούρα is a swear word. More precisely dog-face could mean someone ugly whose face looks like a dog’s, but it could also imply a cruel looking face, a lowlife whose lowlifeness is evident in their face and so on. The struggle of modern translators and academics is unreal - “we can’t use a bad word for a woman - perhaps she meant dog-face as a symbolism of loyalty, of a fierce huntress like Artemis, of an obedient and long lasting friend uwu” - no sweetie she meant: “I hate myself, I am a bitch and as repulsive as one”. Sorry. Meanwhile, swear word for a man; “Clearly, it can’t just be a swear word spoken in anger, Agamemnon must in fact be a cannibal” 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

Yeah, great. Just head on acknowledging that Iliad is not as queer as young American audiences are misled to believe. I love how there is a vibe of apologism in the air because Wilson, as a translator, didn’t have the endless entitlement to go as berserk on the characters as Miller did. I also love the iconic addition that “admittedly there aren’t many queer warriors and athletes in American culture” so she implies they have to keep Patrochilles (🤦‍♀️) at any cost! NEWSFLASH: ACHILLES AND PATROCLUS ARE NOT A PART OF AMERICAN CULTURE!!! Whether gay or straight friends - they are not part of your Marvel and DC culture!!! Oh my god!!!

What’s your business responding to readers’ expectations, Emily? Your business is to translate Homer for English audience. Whether they will like it or not, it’s their business. You are not appointed to “excuse” Homer to anyone or make him palatable to Marvel fans! Jfc

I will say I agree with her that Achilles and Patroclus’ relationship is ambiguous but I hate that she clearly dreads to openly admit that for fear of what American 17 year olds will feel about it. It is another example of how the last years the definition of truth has morphed into what one wants to hear rather than what is factually the case.

#Iliad #Homeric epics #Homer #western entitlement #literature #anon #mail

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sophsicle · 3 months

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i've come here to talk to you about my undying love for hektor because i think you would both appreciate and understand me....

like he is so special and so charming and so so so "gentle" in the midst of so many terrible things. obviously he is a killer but he has such humanity, like im reading multiple translations of the iliad for my grad class and i cant believe how that kindness is carried over in so many of the translations they don't leave it out, ever

AND ANDROMACHE! when she says "you've been a father to me and my mother and my brother because they all have been killed" i FEEL SO BROKEN

Yeah I am very obsessed with Hector I am actually obsessed in general with the way that the iliad does not follow the narrative structure that the western novel later develops, i would argue that is at least partially due to the influence of Christianity and the desire to have cut and dry "good" and "bad" characters

the Trojans are not the bad guys in the iliad, even tho technically it is being written from the greek perspective, arguably Agamemnon is the bad guy, or at least the least likeable character, imo, so it is not a case of good guys v. bad guys.

and achilles is our hero, and patroclus is his humanity, and is beloved by everyone, and Hector. Hector who is not a bad guy. Hector who is a very good man, actually. very loyal, decent, honourable, hector kills him. which is like. ugh. brutal. and patroclus is achillles' everything. and he is torn apart by grief and so are you, as the reader, and you want revenge but like, on who? on who? because hector is not a bad guy. he was not even in the wrong for killing patroclus (whomst he thought was achilles) but he did kill him. he did. and that hurts.

so you get the climatic fight scene. but that fight scene is not between the good guy and the bad guy like we're used to seeing today. it is between a very good guy. and a very heart broken guy. and you feel for them both. you understand them both. you root for them both.

and so achilles kills hector. and it isn't really satisfying. or heroic. it is shameful actually. and it doesn't make him feel any better. and it doesn't bring patroclus back.

in fact the real peace, comes not from the battle, from the killing, but from Priam. Hector's father. who comes to Achilles, alone, and unarmed and begs for his son. and the two bond over their shared grief.

it is so human, right? like, there are no heroes or villains in this story. there are just people, fighting a war, not a war for good or evil, just a war for land. and power. and hearts are broken and lives are ruined and there is no real purpose.

but the story bleeds.

it bleeds with the love of sons. and fathers. and brothers. and lovers. and it just-

i love that hector is such a likeable guy, because it would be so much less beautiful a story if he wasn't. it would be too easy and too simple.

#soph rambles

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henry-fox-biggest-stan · 7 months

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Just finished rereading the iliad, so thinking about Shauna and Jackie and Achilles and Patroklos, because the similarities are there.

The fight scene where Jackie (Patroklos) tells Shauna (Achilles) to get out because she can’t be around her at the moment, is, to me, similar to the scene where Patroklos is telling Achilles to go out and fight the Trojans.

And then Shauna (Achilles) tells her no, she won’t go out and if Jackie doesn’t feel like she can be around her that sounds like her problem, so maybe she should go out. Similar to Achilles not going out to fight the Trojans and save the Greeks, but instead agreeing to let Patroklos go out with his armor to help them.

Agreeing to go out is what causes both Jackie and Patroklos to die.

Before Jackie dies she has a dream (vision? whatever that was) where Shauna goes out to get her and bring her back inside, apologizing and giving her food. Similar to how Patroklos, before he died, killed many Trojans and believed he might be saving the Greeks after all.

Then it snows, and Jackie freezes to death outside (different to how Patroklos died, killed by Hector) and Shauna realizes what happened when she saw the snow through the window, and she runs outside to find Jackie’s corpse buried under the snow.

My friend is dead, Patroclus, my dearest friend of all. I loved him, And I killed him.

Now where the parallels get good.

Shauna, like Achilles, keeps Jackie/Patroklos’ corpse and visits it daily, talks to it, even does her makeup once. Achilles kept Patroklos’ corpse on their tent, and it wasn’t until Patroklos’ spirit came to him during a dream to tell him to give him a funeral, since otherwise he couldn’t enter the underworld, than Achilles started his funeral. Similar to how Shauna kept Jackie’s body until Tai said they had to get rid of her corpse and than what Shauna was doing wasn’t healthy.

They cremate Jackie, just like they cremated Patroklos.

Do not lay my bones apart from yours, but let them lie together

That’s what Patroklos spirit tells Achilles during that dream, which reminds me of “I don’t even know where you end and I begin”.

When he rejoins the battle, Patroclus does so as Achilles' surrogate, literally impersonating him by wearing his armor, and he represents Achilles' double as well as his opposite.

-Sheila Murnaghan, introduction of the Iliad, Stanley Lombardo’s version (1997)

In the most extreme moments of his grief for his most beloved person, Achilles presents Patroclus not as his child, parent, or wife, but as himself. The ultimate form of love is to see no difference between the self and the beloved. Patroclus' journey into battle wearing the armor of Achilles transforms him into his friend, in the eyes of the Trojans. He becomes Achilles also, tragically, in his violent death before the walls of Troy, killed by Trojans through the help of Apollo, just as Achilles soon will be. Once Patroclus is dead, Achilles tries to transform himself into his dead friend, by rolling in the dust and, like a dead man, abstaining from food, sleep, or sex. He anticipates joining Patroclus again, and becoming indistinguishable from him in death, when their bones are together in one jar."

-Emily Wilson, introduction of her version of the Iliad (2023)

Meanwhile Shauna (and the other girls, but she did it first) eats Jackie, Achilles doesn’t do that with Patroklos, but he does say this line

I wish my stomach would let me / Cut off your flesh in strips and eat it raw / For what you've done to me.

He says that to Hector, Patroklos’ killer, before killing him in revenge. Since Jackie didn’t have a killer (and if she did, it was Shauna, even if she chose to go out), Shauna has no one to kill in revenge, no one to wish to eat for the intense grief, so she turns to Jackie.

Also Jackie was always meant to die, she was doomed by the narrative, she died because she was meant for life outside the woods, for a normal life, the life they had before, she wasn’t meant for a cannibalistic cult, that’s kind of what Jackie’s death represents, she was a symbol of societal norms and hierarchies (being this popular prom queen and Shauna talking about how back home they were probably “missing their perfect little princess” and how Jackie tells her than she’s such a cliché for thinking of her and their relationship like that), whatever, but also Patroklos. He’s constantly described as gentle, kind. Which is weird to see given than he has one of the highest body counts in the book (if not the highest). Also people who are always described by those adjectives, kind, gentle, sweet people don’t usually belong in a war. Smh.

while Achilles is violent, quick to anger, and jealous of his own honor, Patroclus is gentle, concerned for the bonds of friendship between members of the army, and compassionate, and he reenters the war out of pity for the many Greeks who are dying because of Achilles' absence.

-Sheila Murnaghan, introduction of the Iliad, Stanley Lombardo’s version (1997)

Our Patroclus was, gentle and kind to all / When he was alive.

Then they gathered the bones of their gentle comrade

As Hector, who killed your gentle, valiant friend.

I will never stop grieving for you, forever sweet.

You killed his comrade, Gentle and strong,

Also, Achilles is described as having man-slaying hands. Isn’t Shauna the butcher of the yellowjackets?

#something about Achilles being compared to a spear in tsoa if I remember correctly #it’s been years I read it but it was something like ‘you can use a spear as a walking stick but it doesn’t change its nature’#Achilles being a killer #ruthless #being described as having man-slayer hands #isn’t Shauna the knife? the blade? the butcher?#Shauna tries so so hard to be normal she doesn’t even WANT to be the butcher and yet she is #she is she always is isn’t she #this might only make sense to me idk #the iliad #yellowjackets #achilles #shauna shipman #jackie taylor #jackieshauna #yellowjackets analysis #I guess #paralells #patroklos

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baejax-the-great · 1 month

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Question: of all your Patrochilles couples, which set would dump their current partners fastest to reconcile with each other? (A speed dumping, if you will)

Okay, but this was fun to think about. How long would it take them to dump their partners (or cheat on them 😬)

Sunset: I think if Pat had had a boyfriend in Sunset, everything would have happened pretty much exactly the same. Either Pat would have dumped his boyfriend out of guilt after that first makeout sesh with Achilles, or his boyfriend would have dumped him when he brought home an insane, hot man (more likely tbh). Regardless, it would have taken a few days.

Olympic Boys: This is tricky because I don't think either of them were able to have long term relationships after the breakup. Achilles didn't try and Patroclus fucked around eventually but never was able to be vulnerable enough for a real relationship. So their reconciliation was instant and ridiculous, but no partners were harmed during the events (though many ducks were scarred for life).

not the desperate type: approximately 1.5 hours.

Agua Caliente: This would probably be the slowest one. We know in Chintz that seven years wasn't enough for Achilles to dump Deidamia. If Patroclus had had a boyfriend when AC started, I don't think he would have dumped him for Achilles. I think he probably would have started having those old feelings for him and pulled away.

Sweet Victory: Honestly this could be a prequel to not the desperate type. I think if they broke up again and started dating other people, it would take them 20 minutes to find a closet or something and cheat on those people and then probably ghost them because they literally forgot they existed.

WitD: Okay this is fun because Achilles purged all his memories, right? So if he hooked up with someone in Elysium and had a new partner, how long would it take for him to dump that guy for this strange sad sack who wandered out of Asphodel and is super intense? Not long. He's pretty instantly obsessed with him. He'd probably demand his new partner help him in getting Pat back, and that could lead to jealousy issues depending on who it was and what their opinion on Patroclus had been.

#patrochilles #did I forget anyone #thanks for the fun question!#ended up rereading desperate type last night which was fun #Patroclus is such a mess

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darlingsart · 19 days

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Do you have any other aus?? I love your modern aus so much 😃

Hi! I’m so glad you’re enjoying my AUs! 🥹❤️

I have SO many AUs for Pat and Achilles so this is going to be a long post lmao

One of my favorites is this nereid/human modern AU that I’ve been daydreaming up for the past four years. In this AU, I like to think of nereids having legs but they’re covered in scales, they have more webbed feet and fingers, webbed ears, sharp teeth, gills, like a human/sea creature mix. So Achilles takes advantage of his mostly human appearance by sitting at the shoreline or lounging around the sand from time to time when no one’s around. Anyways, he meets Patroclus by chance on a small, secluded part of the beach and they fall for each other and of course drama ensues because they’re not supposed to be together and Thetis is NOT having it lmao. This AU has everything, secret romance, small towns, royalty drama, heat/mating cycles, and family fluff down the line. It really is one of my faves that I’ve written for myself!

I’ve also got an actor/model AU that I’ve recently been fixated on too. I love the idea of Pat being an amazing actor so much AND Achilles being a spoiled model. Like they are just the IT couple down every red carpet, the envy of all instagram users. I love the idea of Patroclus getting a golden globe or an Oscar or something and Achilles just being a feral mess in the audience like you all better fucking CLAP for my HUSBAND. He’d definitely get a little teary eyed heartfelt shout out from him too.

And then I have a plain old modern AU with them knowing each other as kids and getting together in college, you know the Standard Patchilles AU (which I love).

I’ve also got some spicy AUs like a sugar baby/sugar daddy AU, OH and a “You work for my dad’s company and we’re hooking up in the supply closet between every meeting” AU which is pretty self explanatory and a little messy lol like Peleus thinks that Achilles is finally taking an interest in running the business since he keeps coming to the office every day but really he’s just banging Patroclus, the new VP whenever they’re not in a meeting and eventually their feelings start to go beyond the office and they start actually seeing each other but have to keep it a secret from Peleus, love love love the messiness of it all!

Then I have a sex worker AU. This one’s also one of my faves where Pat is a pretty well off guy, like he’s already established in his career and has a good life but he’s also pretty lonely. Like even his friends notice it and he definitely feels like something’s missing from his life but he’s not exactly sure if he can do the whole relationship thing at the moment. One day, one of his friends jokingly recommends seeing this one worker who— surprise surprise— is Achilles and Pat ends up falling in love and catching feelings very quickly, like after their second or third session, he just can’t stop thinking about him. But it gets messy bc of the work/client dynamic even though they both have feelings for each other and all that UGH I love it.

So many AUs so little time lmao 😭

#asks #patrochilles #tsoa

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dhampiravidi · 2 months

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dissecting Suits (Mike x Harvey)

OK, what if the whole show is from Harvey's POV?

Consider it (aside from the scenes he obviously would know nothing about). It starts with Jessica running the firm. She (his mentor/adopted mom/weirdly teasing bestie) is powerful & does what she wants (so he emulates her). When she, then Mike, leaves, the show's tone becomes more grim. Suddenly, every other episode ends with Harvey having a sad drink. Louis (as well as Harvey) goes from rebellious & rude to kind & mature as the show continues. Additionally, the women in the firm go from competent & smart to flawed &...just generally making social/occupational mistakes; this isn't Harvey thinking they're stupid because he has healthier platonic relationships with women than with men--it means HE'S REALIZING HE'S IN LOVE WITH MIKE.

This is evident as Mike himself goes from fairly easygoing to naive to self-sacrificing to a decent lawyer. In other words, he emulates Harvey, which earns Mike Harvey's respect. We all see the interactions between the two of them, many of which mimic the traditional heterosexual banter between a male lead & their female love interest. It's made clear through Donna & Scottie that Harvey's attracted to that shit, so once he finally reconciles his past trauma (related to what made him ultimately deny himself a healthy romance), he's able to accept his bisexuality & that he loves Mike Ross. However, at this point, Mike is gone & married, living the kind of life that Harvey always wanted (not in that Mike is rich, but that he feels successful & is in love). So Harvey takes what he can get with Donna, his last decent love interest (he might also do this because he feels guilty about stringing her along for the past 12 years).

I haven't seen the last episode yet, but I know what will happen. It'll have some happy scene at Harvey & Donna's wedding where Mike (yeah & Rachel) are there. Harvey's happy because the guy he loves who left, came back, if only for a little while. & gods know how bad his abandonment issues are (me too).

Also: Mike is the Patroclus to Harvey's Achilles, Donna's Briseis & Rachel's Deidamia. Just sayin'. (Or fuck, maybe Harvey's Odysseus to Donna's Penelope.)

Another also: that "I've only had this dog for five seconds" is basically Marvey, but change to "I've only had this assistant for 2 days & I'd totally fuck him I mean I'm in love with him I mean I'd do time for him"

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alatismeni-theitsa · 1 month

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https://www.tumblr.com/colombinna/735969619167281152/song-of-achilles-fans-nooo-im-not-colorist-of

Theitsa, I just came across this and I've got to admit I'm confusion: 1) Doesn't Miller spend many pages referring to how "fair" Achilles is compared to other Greeks, to the point where it gets disturbing?

2) Does Miller and her readers even realise that a "dark" Greek doesn't look the same as a "dark" Indian or a "dark" Afghani? Like, I've seen how weirdly she describes the skin colour of Greeks but I always thought it was her pretentious, flowery prose, I didn't think she was a) that ignorant or b) purposely altering their appearence.

For context, that's the linked post (please don't harass OP if you come in conact with them)

1) Doesn't Miller spend many pages referring to how "fair" Achilles is compared to other Greeks, to the point where it gets disturbing?

Hmm not sure about that. There were some references from what I remember but I am not sure if it gets disturbing if we consider the ancient Greek view of blond people. For ancient Greeks a light skinned person with golden hair was like a god because it was so rare to see such an appearance in this area. Although I oppose Miller's approach in many cases, I think what she attempted here was to reflect the importance of this difference for the ancient Greeks and the message war more or less shown. Even today when Greeks see a naturally blond person they attempt to learn if they are actually Greek for many generations, because it's extremely rare and you can hear Greeks from time to time mention their time with a "natural blond Greek" as if it was a miracle 😂

What I mostly disagreed with is how she described the skin tones of Greeks, which gave me the "western exotisation" feeling.

What was even weirder for me in the novel is that Patroclus gives the impression of considering his own darker skin as something negative. This view is not supported by the ancient Greek beauty standards for men, since being tanned was generally desireable. Miller probably fails to understand that she wasn't dealing with modern western world racism. In the ancient Greek world the admired by the ancients fairness of Achilles doesn't mean "fair = better" for men's beauty standards. Only if your appearance was veery different than the average man there was a problem if you were too dark or too light.

I also feel like the "pale fanart Achilles" complaint OP has shows ignorance and (unknowingly) the hidden old racist notion of "all Greeks are dark and can tan". OP and other people should know that being natural blond and dark skinned for native Greeks like Achilles is almost impossible. Blond Greeks whose families were locals for centuries have light skin in the overwhelming majority of circumstances and I have yet to see the opposite. So it is actually accurate to make Achilles generally light skinned. Perhaps not "British pale" and certainly not "Swedish blond" but the guy is probably lucky to be able to tan a little 😂 (many Greeks, especially light haired ones can barely tan)

2) Does Miller and her readers even realise that a "dark" Greek doesn't look the same as a "dark" Indian or a "dark" Afghani?

She probably doesn't see a difference, if I'm honest. For many westerners anything darker than snow goes to "Brown" category and "Brown" people are seen as having an interchangeable appearance, if I judge even from the fanarts of progressive Westerners. Many of her western readers probably hold the same opinion.

2) Like, I've seen how weirdly she describes the skin colour of Greeks but I always thought it was her pretentious, flowery prose, I didn't think she was a) that ignorant or b) purposely altering their appearence.

OH SWEET SUMMER CHILD 😭😭😭

Last but not least: In the Iliad I don't remember a distinct difference of skintone mentioned between Achilles and Patroclus. They probably both had the average light-with-tanning-ability skin of the average Greek man of central Greece. (Given that one of them is freaking BLOND I had to find a middle way 😂) But what I wanted to say is that what made them nearly indistinguishable in battle was 1) the armor 2) the fighting style. I suppose if some skin was shown, it was kinda similar. But if Patroclus was darker perhaps the chaos of battle didn't allow people to pay attention to it.

#song of achilles #tsoa #achilles #achilles and patroclus #madeline miller #answered

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