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baejax-the-great · 4 months

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Hi, I saw on one of your ao3 comments that you think Homers' Achilles is on the spectrum. This is a really interesting idea to me, but I don't know that much about autism - could you elaborate on why you think that? (Also, I think all of your fics are amazing ☺️)

Autism as a word and diagnosis did not exist in ancient Greece, and I have no idea if there would have been a similar concept about it (doubt it) or if more likely people with certain autistic traits would have been considered to have a certain type of personality. So for me to say that Homer deliberately wrote Achilles as "autistic" is a little tongue in cheek.

That said, reading the Iliad I did have a moment of "Ohhhh, dude's autistic I get it." Some people might look at my reasoning and say, "well, that could be a whole other thing with these other reasons," and that's fair. This is just how it came across to me and why.

Sense of justice/fairness. This is one of the more obscure autistic traits (that often gets misunderstood and shit upon by people), but it's how the book begins, so I'll start here. Autistic people are more likely to learn and follow rules to a T. This gets rolled into the trait of "rigid thinking" and has been related to autistic people's preference for solid routines. To think about where you lie with this trait, one example is the "walk" signal at a crosswalk. Some people jaywalk when the road is very clear and no one is around. Some people jaywalk when the road ISN'T clear because they don't give a fuck. And some people will wait for that light to turn white no matter what because that's what you are supposed to do and there are rules (although culture/country of origin will also affect how much relevance traffic lights have in your life).

This is a rule, but it has little do to with justice. So to figure out where you stand in terms of justice sensitivity, another metric is how angry you feel when you watch someone cut in line and not get punished for it. Some of us will sigh and move on with our life because dicks are everywhere, whatever, and some people will have a harder time letting go because this person broke a rule in an obviously unfair way, and they should be punished for that.

This trait does not mean that autistic people have a better sense of what justice is or what rules/laws are "just." That is all very subjective. But this trait does result in a stronger negative reaction to seeing those rules/laws violated.

Such as rage.

Achilles fits the bill here in both in terms of rigid thinking and his sense of justice. His reputation in the Greek tradition is as someone who was very educated. In fact, he is the most educated with regards to law and religion than the rest of the Achaeans thanks to his time with Chiron. More than that, he actually cared about what he was taught and was considered kind of a stick-in-the-mud in terms of believing that the armies should follow the rules and customs of their people at all times and that violating their own laws was bad, even if you really, really wanted to bang a hot chick.

When Agamemnon decides to take Briseis, he is breaking a Rule. The common interpretation of what happens here is that he has violated Achilles' pride and honor in doing so, and Achilles loses his shit. That's valid. To me it read a little differently. I mean, for one, Achilles is 100% correct in the first book. Agamemnon pissed off the gods in a way he shouldn't have bringing plague on everyone, and how does he solve this? By agreeing to do the thing Achilles told him to do to solve it and then immediately violating their customs to steal from Achilles, bringing down a plague of "Achilles is not going to help you anymore."

Achilles cries to his mom that he wants the gods to fuck over the Greeks to prove Achilles right, which is deeply immature, but also really makes sense to me. Like, Agamemnon did this shitty, illegal, rules-breaking thing, and he needs to feel the consequences of that action. Achilles isn't a god who can bring down a plague, but his mommy is, so get fucked, Agamemnon. It's Zeus time.

During the time Achilles is out of the fighting, he is routinely called hard-hearted, stubborn, and other words to indicate he will not be swayed, which again speaks to his rigidity of understanding how things should be done.

The Way Achilles Talks About His Emotions. Achilles very clearly states what he is feeling throughout the book, and he often restates it. We get it, bro. You're mad. And then sad. Really, really sad. While this is almost definitely for the audience to understand his feelings and just how deep they run, Homer also could have just told us outright what he was thinking without having Achilles say it out loud repeatedly. It also felt to me that Achilles talks about his feelings far more often and bluntly than other characters do, but again this could be because the story revolves around his 'rage.'

Regardless, even if it was purely for audience benefit, this is a behavior I have noticed with my adult ND friends, which is basically after a childhood feeling confused by what other people around them are doing or why they are reacting to things in a certain way, they have a strategy of very bluntly expressing themselves and where they are at in this situation. It can be far easier than trying to follow the subtleties of NT culture and just get whatever issue it is out in the open. Saying to someone "I am angry at you" can come off as overly aggressive and blunt depending on context, but it cuts to the heart of the matter. We can compare this with Odysseus, who does not express any very deep emotions at all in the Iliad (other than the fact that Thersites should shut the fuck up, anyway), presumably because that's nobody else's business.

The Embassy. Achilles' point to Odysseus that this entire war was started over a man stealing a woman is so correct and so ignored. He looks at this situation and says: Paris stole Helen, and Agamemnon rallied all the Achaeans to come make war with Troy. Agamemnon steals Briseis, and I'm meant to... keep fighting for him? In what way does this make sense?

Everyone around him sees it from a completely different perspective, basically that Achilles got angry over a girl. To Achilles this is not what it is about at all. And I'm with him on this. If stealing a woman is a sin egregious enough for thousands of Greeks to spend 10 years attempting to sack a city, then it is the same amount of egregious for Agamemnon to take Briseis and he's lucky Achilles didn't kill him immediately and sack Argos. He's getting off easy, which Achilles tells him.

Reading Odysseus lay out his argument followed by Achilles cutting him down with that bit of logic was like, yeah, I'm with Achilles, I don't even think he's being stubborn I just think he's right.

In the embassy chapter, Achilles also has his famous line about despising men who say one thing but mean another. Being very truthful and having difficulty noticing lies is another common trait of autism, and it would make sense for Achilles to find the dishonesty of his colleagues deeply annoying.

Old British scholars called him a sociopath. This might seem like a weird one, but I'm adding it into evidence. When I read the Iliad, I see Achilles as a very emotional person. Given that half the book is about his grief over Patroclus, I find calling him incapable of caring about others incredibly bizarre. But in addition to determining that these scholars who wrote these batshit essays have never once in their life had a friend, much less a friend that they loved, this kind of fits with how a certain type of old-fashioned scholar understands autism. I've actually been at neuroscience talks with crusty old assholes who talk about how autistics and orphans are incapable of empathy, and then use evidence that really just says to me they express empathy in a different way. (Yes, orphans. For real. A real talk I went to in like 2015. Did you know that orphans don't have feelings and don't care about the feelings of others. /s) Add to the old British tradition of their feral private school kids (which I believe they call public school? idk those assholes in blazers, you know the ones) literally caning each other for being smaller, weaker, or just different, and this to me is solid evidence that Achilles is neurodivergent and unwittingly awoke the bloodlust in these old (dead) bastards.

Speech Patterns. Not being able to read Ancient Greek, I can't actually say much about this one, but multiple scholars have commented that the way Achilles speaks in the Iliad is different to all the others. He has a unique way of speaking. Again, this is not necessarily an autistic trait, but it is common for autistic people to have different speech patterns than NT people, so it's more just a "hmmm, maybe" than actual evidence.

I feel like I'm forgetting other little things, but I'd have to fully reread the Iliad with this in mind to jog my memory, and maybe one day I will. TLDR; Achilles has a very rigid way of thinking and an uncommon way of expressing his emotions.

And as always, autism is a spectrum. Anything I've written about here isn't necessarily true of any autistic person out in the world.

#iliad posting #tagamemnon #man do I want this in the tags? I feel like...#listen I am not autistic I just believe in their beliefs #aka I'm related to autistic people and have ADHD and we got that overlapping vibe you know #anger outbursts are also a known trait of autism #there's also more subtle stuff #achilles gets really upset that despite being the best warrior he's not being appreciated #and sure that could just be pride or an obnoxious personality or whatever #but I've also seen this in my ND friends where maybe they are the best at tennis #but someone else is made team captain #because that person is more likable #and the ND friend is like but I'm better and I deserve that honor #and it really frustrates them #like Agamemnon sucks and everyone at that meeting knows it #but nobody sided with Achilles because conflict at this point is just like... can we not #okay rambling incoherently in the tags now I guess #achilles #old crusty scholar: as we see by the embassy chapter achilles is evil and awful #ND me: okay but he was 100% correct tho so I don't see the issue #people might be dying but he won that argument and that is the important part

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loki-ioki · 1 year

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“My name is.. Cynthia..

..Right?”

#my take on the Cynthia is Volo theory #please do not expect me to do much with this there are people who do it so much better than me #i simply got beamed in the head with an idea and drew it #anyway he did not mean to become Cynthia. this follows most of the same hcs as that ref i did #so he has extreme dissociation episodes (most of the time he is not mentally present)#200 years of dissociating and at some point he snaps out of it and is simply someone else #nobody there who remembers who Volo is #so he ended up as Cynthia. Powerful and adored Cynthia...#beloved and with an air of mystery everyone loves her #no longer shunned and ignored a new world (basically) and life. so why is she still misserable #the skeleton in her closet wants his life back.#also volo is not transfem in this he's more akin to genderfluid #he uses anything but as Cynthia tends to get called she/her #anyway sorry for the rambling #Pokemon #Loki's art #Volo #Cynthia #PLA #pokemon legends arceus #Pokemon Platinum #pokemon wielder volo #Champion Cynthia #AGAIN i'm not really gonna do much else with this just something sad to think about. I actually think the two of them are twins ok bye

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skinnypaleangryperson · 5 months

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I don't know if it's just me, but are they gradually dumbing down Rick's character for the sake of keeping the show popular?

I got extreme Peter Griffin vibes from this episode, and I feel like in general he's a lot less sharp and cool gritty and witty and "unconventional" the way that he was the first couple of seasons. He wasn't an easy character to "swallow" in a lot of ways so to speak, and I feel like he's gradually getting dumber, more cloudy around the edges, less sharp and more conventional and shallow with a lot of the things that he says. He feels extremely typical sometimes this season-like more of the character that people would watch because the character doesn't challenge their headspace in any kind of way, and is someone that encourages their complacent drunk dead personality.

The character used to say things that was really unpopular, or at the very least would occasionally say things that would make people uncomfortable (just things like "if you know how you're going to die because of how boring your life is then you're not even alive" and just things that challenged at the boring drunk complacent status quo that most American sitcom characters are), was an extreme breath of fresh air in terms of how sharp he was and how he wasn't afraid to challenge everything even if it was just in a TV show character kind of way, and it's one of the things that stuck out about me about him the most, especially as someone who is mentally ill and feels detached from most of American culture.

I might just be in a bad mood, but I genuinely feel like Rick feels less sharp and "unconventional"and is starting to feel increasingly more dumb, dopey and easy to swallow as a character.

I still love him and I always will, and sometimes I find it endearing, but this episode in particular felt like he was just being a dumb genuine and boring drunk (really just in terms of the scene with Beth, but considering that the episodes are only about 22 minutes, there isn't a lot of elbow room to work with, especially considering most of this episode was summer screen time).

The only reason why I care so much is because of Rick is one of the very few characters I've ever been genuinely connected with, so I'm just worried that Rick as a character is going down to gradual slippery slope of just becoming an American extremely overly dumbed it down product. The show was so gritty and real and raw and a lot of ways for the first three to four seasons and kept that touch up to season 6, but this season just feels like they're gradually going into "American Dad" type feeling territory, and I'm vaguely worried a little bit about my connection to the show. Especially as someone that does not connect to things easily or ever at all really. And partially because everything is so dumbed down and doesn't seem to have any and genuine philosophy behind it except of being another brainless thing for people to consume to pass the time.

#I'm just complaining to myself #because I don't like talking to people on Reddit #lol #rick and morty #if anybody thinks that I'm being melodramatic then I am because there is such thing as being mentally ill because of real life #problems and being deeply in love with characters because for whatever reason that's what makes sense to my brain #I have no friends in this fandom so I can post as obnoxiously as I want anyway lol #Rick is one of the very few things that means enough to me to bring out this passionate side of me #when it comes to consumption #literally not even kidding but my attachment to Rick is so deep #that even just having a certain kind of dopey looked his expression after being confronted in a certain way from being caught drunk can put #me off #for the record I am aware of the fact that my attachment to Rick is unhealthy #and therefore how passionate I am about him is vaguely off-putting or a lot off putting depending on who you are #but I am a self-aware unhealthy person #and I'm also wear the fact that literally nobody has to put up with somebody else's posts if they don't like how intense or mentally ill #they are #fans like me would be better off at this point if the show was canceled #not because I want it to be but because I've become so specifically attached in my extreme labretentious way from other way that Rick was #presented the first six or so seasons that I feel like at this point I've become almost too picky #and obviously it's not about what I think #but I am saying this as someone that is more than content to be fixated on a canceled TV show because of how perfect it already was #like bj #literally the strongest relationship I've ever had with a character #and it's from a canceled TV show of literally 4 years lol

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rubensmuse · 1 year

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i just read your tags on a post from a few days ago and?? do you think the tridentarii aren’t identical twins?

My instinctual answer to this question is "You think the Tridentarii aren't fraternal twins?" Because making the snap judgement that they must be identical is just not as intuitive as this ask is implying it is. They're two different builds and color palettes, and Coronabeth has a different hair texture, so it really surprises me that them being "identical twins" is the assumption to which everyone defaults.

The thing that muddies this discussion for me is that, when people on the internet ask whether or not the Tridentarii are "identical", I have no idea if they mean "they look the same!" or "I headcanon that they are the result of a single zygote splitting into two embryos and developed identical genes!" Because those are two different things, and they involve making two different arguments. I get the sense that when people assume the Tridentarii are "identical", they are saying 1) they are monozygotic twins, but also 2) they would have the same phenotype and be indistinguishable if Ianthe didn't have necromancy eating her titties and muscles or whatever. (Which is also a silly thing to assume, because necromancy doesn't eat your pigmentation, but whatever.) Admittedly, Macaroni and Cheese being different shades of blonde is what made me assume they were fraternal, and that isn't a safe assumption for me to have made because genetics just aren't that simple (see this example of monozygotic twins being born with two dramatically different levels of melanin). The other factor here is, y'know, Ianthe being a necromancer, something hazily theorized in-universe to be genetic (something which, to be fair, we don't know for sure, see this fan theory), and if that is true, boom, there you go, fraternal.

But the other thing we have to consider is that the Tridentarii aren't, like, real. We are talking about fictional characters, so where you or I come down re: their genetic similarities will only matter insofar as it changes the meaning of the narrative. If Ianthe and Coronabeth are "identical" in the genetic sense, what does that mean for their story? Does it make any difference? Is there a purpose to me writing this dumb multiparagraph essay in response to a two-line ask on tumblr, other than to be contrarian and jerk myself off??

I mean, I think so. I think Ianthe's and Coronabeth's story is defined by them not being like the other. They are the two faulty halves of a theoretical complete heir; the platonic ideal of the Princess of Ida, with charisma and likeability and necromancy, too. Their parents "wanted a matched set", but they didn't get one. Them trying to correct this discrepancy with lies and secrecy that isolates them from everyone but each other fits in perfectly with all the other frictions of being a fraternal twin. Like, what's the point of you both? Why'd your mother go through all that trouble to get a pair of shitty normal siblings? And it's easy to internalize that, too, that expectation of unity contrasted with that reality of duality. We are one unit, but you are not like me. If we got here at the same time, why can you do things I can't. Well, fine, then, you have your Thing, I'll have my Thing, too; we're better than a matched set, we complete each other. Hang on, why does your Thing let you do something I can't? Where are you going. Take me with you.

Ianthe and Coronabeth are a set trying to be a match, and they can't make it happen, and it drives them so crazy that Corona would rather be killed and eaten than have Ianthe go do something she can't participate in.

TL;DR: Ianthe and Coronabeth are not literally identical (they are not physically indistinguishable). We don't know if they're genetically identical (monozygotic twins as opposed to dizygotic), and the distinction has not become relevant in any of the books thus far. AND I think considering them to be genetically identical makes their story thematically weaker when compared to the alternative. Therefore, I consider them functionally fraternal until Tamsyn Muir herself says that they aren't, and I furthermore remain flabbergasted that anyone in the fandom would consider that a weird interpretation.

#the locked tomb #ianthe tridentarius #ianthe naberius #coronabeth tridentarius #crown him with many crowns #gideon the ninth #nona the ninth #''but mads! why do you care so much!''#WELL I THINK THERE SHOULD BE MORE SAME-GENDERED FRATERNAL TWINS IN MEDIA.#YES EVEN IF THEY'RE FUCKED UP AND INCESTUOUS. GIMME #thank you for your inquiry! nobody else better insist to me that they're identical ever again after this #this is my headcanon this is my hill to die on i won't be accepting alternative theories #also i take it back. if tamsyn wants to argue with me she's wrong #giddynine #harrynine #nonnynine #just squirrelly things #asks

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