#I hate that they reduced Arya's importance but I love that they did such a piss poor job of adapting that plot

[fromtheseventhhell]

Northern Lords rallying for Arya aka "Valiant Ned's precious little girl" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jon and Sansa having to go door to door to ask for support like beggars

#arya stark #asoiaf #anti got #anti d&d #the downfall of GOT aka the Stark sister's are NOT interchangeable #the North remembers in the books...in the show the North has dementia #I hate that they reduced Arya's importance but I love that they did such a piss poor job of adapting that plot #Arya's right in the middle of the Northern plot in the books and the show barely even had a Northern plot lol #D&D being hacks who can't probably adapt a storyline /pretends to act shocked/

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

D&D saying that one of their favorite plots from the books is the Boltons in Winterfell is a massive sign of their sexism. Now, for anyone one else, I'd probably not care, in fact, I'd agree it's a very interesting part. However, when it comes to the showrunners who needlessly wrote in excessive rape and violence against women, I see it as a red flag. That's compounded by the way they wrote it.

From the beginning of the show, D&D sabotaged the storyline by removing Jeyne Poole. Keep in mind, ADWD was released in 2008, while GOT premiered in 2011, meaning there was no possible way for D&D to not know everything necessary to bring about that specific plot. Add to that the fact that GRRM was heavily involved in season one, them blatantly ignoring Jeyne makes even less sense if they truly cared about adapting it properly.

Knowing this, that D&D themselves sabotaged their own story, the way it was handled makes a bit more sense, though not nearly enough. Without Jeyne there to play the part of fake Arya, a new bride for Ramsay was needed. Sansa was D&D's favorite character, they were unsatisfied with the story GRRM had written for her, they wanted more screen time and plot relevance for her. It seemed like making Sansa take Jeyne's place was a good solution to both these issues.

Except it wasn't. Littlefinger sending Sansa out of the Vale to marry Ramsay makes no sense. Not only is Sansa the object of Littlefinger's obsession, a replacement for Catelyn in his mind, she also was important to Littlefinger getting the Vale on his side (in the show). She was charming the lords and knights, balancing their intense dislike for him with their desire to help/protect her. Not to mention she was his only alibi to save him from accusations of Lysa's murder. Sending her away from the Vale harms Littlefinger's plans. She also would definitely not be "protected" from Cersei; after all the Boltons were loyal to the Lannisters and hated the Starks, what's to stop them from killing Sansa or handing her over once the Northern lords are more settled?

Speaking of the Northern lords, D&D removed the Northern Conspiracy. Throughout the book plot, the Northern lords are plotting to save Arya and depose the Boltons (in a nutshell, it's actually much more complex, but I'm not going into that rn). It's an excellent expression of how the Northerners loved the Starks and hate the Boltons. In the show, the lords are a bit disgruntled, sure, but they have no interest in deposing the Boltons and saving Sansa.

Another major part of the storyline minimized by the show is Theon/Reek. Theon's struggle with identity is a major part of his character throughout the series, and ADWD is no different. He's been stripped entirely of his identity by Ramsay's torture and Theon's own choices. Part of his arc in this book is discovering himself apart from the Starks and the Greyjoys.

That's definitely not what the show did. As I said earlier, Sansa is D&D's favorite character, so naturally she became the center focus of this arc, while Theon was pushed aside. He's essentially reduced to the method of Sansa's escape and goes on track to return to his pre-season one perception of himself: a Stark. This is a massive disservice to his character, Theon isn't a Stark; his life with them is important to his storyline and will definitely inform what he becomes, but it's not the true culmination of his arc. Basically, Theon was turned into a side character in his own story. It's through his pov we see this story, he's the character most tied to Ramsay. Obviously Jeyne is important and a main character in her own right for this arc, but she is not the central character we see the story through. So why is Sansa? She has no stake in this story, Jeyne is forced there after being sex trafficked and Theon is a captive.

So what does this leave for the show version of the plot? There's no conspiracy, Theon's pushed to the side, and politics and overall story are sacrificed. Well that leaves torture and violence against Ramsay's bride. Without the many moving parts of that storyline, it's just a story of a woman being abused horribly by her husband and eventually escaping. However, the escape isn't even the main aspect of the story focused on, that's always the abuse. It's also purely Sansa's abuse, not Theon's or the many people tortured and murdered by Ramsay, Sansa is the sole focus.

So basically, D&D took a plotline that's filled with the inner workings of Northern politics and the complexities of battling identity loss and reduced it to another excuse to show a woman be raped and abused on screen. The desire to turn this stroy into another way to make Sansa suffer is disturbing, and to make matters worse she fucking thanks Ramsay later on?? This whole storyline in the show is disgusting and yet another sign of how sexist D&D are.

#anti got #anti d&d #also sophie turner had just turned 18 when the season was filmed #disgusting #theon greyjoy #ramsay bolton #sansa stark #jeyne poole #asoiaf

[argelladurrandaun]

Lol jonsas came up with the most laughable crack of crack wish that arya will somehow kill dany because they hate the fact that arya and dany stans get along. So they want to turn them against each other 😂. Which is only something derangerd jonsas would do.

Its so convenient for them that it would kill two birds with one stone. Dany will die and arya will go travelling. Jonsas problems solved. Its so fucking pathetic. But funny how they agree that the only way sansa could become relevant 'queen' is if both dany and arya are either dead or gone. Also the only way jon would ever give her any time of the day is if arya and dany are no longer in the picture. So they agree that arya and dany are superior to sansa. Otherwise why would they so vehemantly wish for their death?

This 'theory' has absolutely no rhyme or reason to it. Why does it sound like ramblings of jealous karens threatened by these two powerful female characters? possibly becoming friends?

The funniest part is they never give a reason 'why' arya would possibly want to kill dany? Especially given that dany is a person arya would admire . And want to be like, actually she is like. Not to mention dany and her dragons is the only thing standing between white walkers and humans. Also Dany is exactly the ruler arya wishes to see.

They killed the slaves. That did not seem right to her. They should have killed the masters.

Dany is doing exactly that.

They are both the Noble pricesses and the only nobles who care for the oppressed slaves and smallfolk. And wants to do something for them. When all other nobles only care for themselves.

Dany and arya think the same way. Their morals, ethics and value system is the same.

“Woman?” She chuckled. “Is that meant to insult me? (dany)

+

The woman is important too. (arya)

Also their nature is very similar . They both have a quirky fun loving pesonality. And they both 'willful' girls. Their femininity is different from the stoic staight faced femininity decteted by the society. Thats why they would both understand each other. And if they meet they have great chances of becoming friends.

Im sure i am forgetting a thousand other similarities but my point is, thats why the same people who stan arya also stan dany. And the same people who stan dany also stan arya. Because they are very similar characters. It has nothing to do with sansa and her stans.

Im sure sansa stans are forgetting that arya and sansa are foils, opposites and have a very different and opposing views and opinions of people. So if sansa doesn't like dany only means that arya would absolutely love her. And so would jon since he and dany are also very similar. I don't believe that fanfiction of an ending which is an insult to dany and jons character.

Also arya is not sansas servant and neither are jon and brienne. A/c to jonsas arya has to be on sansas side because they are 'sisters', no matter sansas behaviour. (also notice how their pathetic 'fav' cant even kill her own 'supposed' enemies herself and for arya thats all they reduce her character to be, killing, specially sansas enemies, yikes and then they claim to lOvE arya, and claim that they don't hate dany only want her dead, sure jan) Only thats not the case for asoiaf. In which its very clear family can be toxic too. And its not necessary that family always have your best interest. And thats definitely not the case for sansa and arya who has always been antagonistic towards each other.

Arya always takes the side of what is right. Even if that means going against her sister. Which has happened before many times. Including the trident incident where arya decided to be on mycas side and not her sisters. Arya has a mind of her own. And she always takes her own decisions. Jon has a mind of his own. So no arya or jon wont kill dany just because sansa doesn't like her or sansa asked them to.

#arya stark #deanarys targaryen #jon snow #asoiaf #Anti jonsas #anti sansa stans #anti sansa stark

[fedonciadale]

Hi, I am new in asoiaf/GOT fandom. I had read the series yrs ago and watched the show few months back. I wanted to know why so many ppl hate Sansa in GOT? I have seen even ppl who claim Sansa as their favorite character in books hate her show version. If I had not watched Got, I would have thought they made Sansa the main villain in the television adaptation 😅

There are some differences between her characterization in both versions but then almost every adaptation of books into movies/TV series has never been exactly the same. Even many other characters in GOT are not exactly same as books. So I really dont get what Sansa has done in the show that ppl hate her so much. Bcs to me Sansa was one of the few good guys in the show. Probably the only one who actually proved herself as a capable ruler in the end. So watching the hatred for Sansa in TV adaptation after I joined the fandom has been shocking tbh.

Hi there!

I think there are several reasons, and I just give the bullet points. Sansa was never a very popular character. Go to any other fandom space but tumblr and you’ll only find a few people defending her. And even here: The amount of gifsets that have the Starks but leave out Sansa....

The reason for that are dudebros who only love ‘badass’ women or women who show their tits. It does taste a little bit of misogyny or at least anti feminine women. (and dudebros in that sense are not necessarily men)

People who hate Sansa in the books hate her in the show even more because she got agency in the show, and it became clear that she a) is important and b) would not be dead by the end.

What Sansa did in the show is a) she had screentime with Jon Snow in season 6 which riled up Jon€erys and J0nrya fans, b) the show made her fight with Jon and c) the BotB threw shade on her, because you could interpret it as if Sansa would have been o.k. with Jon dying (and that was never solved!)

In season 7 she was pitched against Arya, a fan favourite, and again people thought she would choose her ambition over her family.

In season 8 she was set up as a foil to Dany and people who had expected her to braid Dany’s hair were shocked when she did not do that and blamed her for Dany destroying King’s Landing (yes, they did!).

It did not help that D&D continued to suggest shady motivations for Sansa - which all turned out to be untrue, but were never explicitly denied. And the hints at her being a good ruler were put into a context were she was contrasted with Arya and Dany (fan favs). Therefore people did not take that seriously (her care for food, for all the refugees who needed to be admitted to Winterfell, her conviction that chopping of heads does not help etc.)

So, that is why Anti Sansas hated her even more in the show. In the books they can still delude themselves into thinking that she won’t be important.

Then there are the Sansabuts: They usually start their posts with “I love Sansa but” .... and then they proceed to tell everyone how unimportant she is. Usually these are people who stan Dany and desperately want them to get along and do not understand that GRRM set them up as foils. Sometimes these posts are disguised in the form of “I love bookSansa, but....” I side eye anyone who claims that Sansa won’t be that important in the books, to be honest. I might be a bit oversensitive in that regard, but the experience with Sansabuts is sobering. I once accidentally followed a strictly Book Sansa blog that hated on Sophie and continuously had edits with Sansa as Lady of x or y (anywhere but Winterfell).

To be quite honest to you. I myself think that D&D reduced some of the nicer traits of Sansa. They did change the characters. Tyrion is far too nice, Bran too cold and Sansa lost her kindness along the way. She still is a considerate ruler but the heartfelt kindness is not the same as in the books. And the one time she killed someone it was relatable (if not just, because there was no trial)

And they completely left out almost all of Sansa’s abilities : singing, knowing about just every noble house etc. The last time we saw her sewing was in season 6 I think. So, if pressed, I would probably tell you that I prefer BookSansa too. But that does not mean that I cannot recognize Sansa in the show. And I prefer her to any of the other characters. If by the end anyone is generally good, it is Sansa. Jon Snow is one of my favs, but season 7 and 8 has definitely soured my enthusiasm.

So, that is obviously my explanation.

TLDR; Sansa committed the crime of being a feminine woman and being important and not a trophy wife despite that. She also committed the crime that she came into the way of fan fav characters and especially Dany stans think it is Sansa who robbed them of an ending with Dany on the throne (when it was Dany herself), To outright haters she committed the crime of surviving and not dying a gruesome death.

I know she is really terrible, ;-)

Thanks for the ask!

#anon ask #Sansa Stark #Sansa Stark defence squad #Anti Sansabuts

[alicenttully]

Something I’ve always been curious about, why exactly do book Dany stans hate Sansa? (assuming they’re not show watchers). They’ve never interacted in the books (yet) and their arcs have nothing to do with each other. I can understand show watchers because Sansa flat out rejected their precious white savior, but the book readers hatred is odd. (Just like all antis)

Honestly someone (maybe @sayruq @trinuviel or @cleverjonquil ) who have been in the fandom longer than I have would probably give a more satisfactory answer BUT I would probably say it's a number of factors -

1. Many Dany stans are like Arya stans in that they have "not like other girls syndrome". Therefore, they can't comprehend that a feminine character like Sansa could possibly have any narrative importance, or be a hero in her own right. Because if Sansa had been a character in a different story, she would have been reduced either to a love interest, a background character, gives up her ladylike interests for "character development", or killed to be someone else's motivation (ie Ned) Instead, she is a major POV character and has been called "central part of the story" along with Bran & Arya, she has a political arc with strong Queen foreshadowing, has her own endgame antagonist ALL the while still existing as a feminine character. Now, I know someone will challenge this by arguing that Daenerys is also feminine, which is true. But the difference between Dany and Sansa is that Dany is much more admissible because she has dragons etc

2. Which kind of goes into my second point. Many book Dany fans are male, fantasy readers, and they're used to seeing characters like Daenerys in the genre. I've said before that when you read Sansa's chapters and compare them to her siblings/Dany, Sansa arguably feels like she could be in a different literary genre to them. She's also a more realistic child character than Dany or Arya. That's not to say that Arya or Dany are "grown ups" (because reading Arya's chapters, you get a sense of how young Arya is too - for example, her insistence that Ned never loved anyone but her mother... which awww) but like.... Arya is a tiny 9 year old at the end of AGOT when she flees the Red Keep. Realistically, throwing a kid in the middle of a war zone - she should have died. Arya's survival is in many ways miraculous.

3. There are Dany stans who also happen to be Arya stans who hate Sansa. I get the feeling that some Dany & Arya stans also have an "alliance" (lol) but they'll 100 per cent turn on one another when given the opportunity or if the other character does something that pisses the other fandom off - for example, the horrible things said about Arya by Dany stans when surprise, surprise, she sided with her blood (that is, her inferior sister Sansa) instead of a invader/tyrant that would only bring more blood and carnage to a continent that has been devastated by a war very recently, in the show. There are a lot of hints in the books that show Arya is going to feel very similar. Like Arya named her direwolf after a woman who found refuge for her people after fleeing the Valyrians.

4. Book Dany stans love Dany because they've misinterpreted her arc as being a heroic one. They see her as a saviour because they've mistaken her anti slavery campaign as being wholly altruistic, and they think shes going to retake Westeros and reestablish her family dynasty (perhaps with Jon) or she's going to sacrifice her life fighting the Others AFTER she's decimated Kingslanding. Accidentally of course. They overlook a lot of red flags in her narrative. For one, her whole mantra of "If I look back I am lost" is her refusal to contemplate her mistakes. Her whole Dance arc. People say it's boring, but I think those chapters are very revealing about where George intended to go with her character. He could not have been more blatant when he has her think that if she gets to fly on Drogon, it'll be "worth it" despite at the same time having her witness the absolute nightmare Drogon has created by him showing up. The fact that Dany is an isolated POV character - think how much people's view of Dany might have been changed if we had Mirri's POV to counter hers- but then again, considering how much WOC are treated like monsters in situations when they're the ones who have been hurt by white women, racists would still try to rationalise what Dany did to her. Arya has a similar issue -she's interacted with other POV characters who all have their perceptions of her (Jon, Ned, Sansa) but while the first two paint her in a very favourable light - you know Arya is a daddy's girl (which I identify with, I'm much closer to my dad) and Jon & Arya adore each other. When it comes to Sansa, she doesn't think Arya hung the moon (she doesn't hate her either to be clear) but it's very obvious that when it comes to AGOT, that George was very heavy-handed with the way he wrote them. And because of that people walk away with the perception that Arya is the underdog and Sansa the mean older sister. But at the same time it's not that simple. The perception isn't entirely accurate. Yes Arya is in many ways an underdog, but Sansa isn't an enemy. Her moments of being "mean" are the result of the trauma she very recently went through and isn't processing healthily, her issues with Joffrey etc, her repressed anger towards Ned (the person who killed Lady) There's also the fact that Arya projects onto Sansa in her first chapter - she blames her for getting her into trouble with Septa Mordane etc. Like Sansa wasn't doing anything but chilling with Jeyne girl. You're the one who spoke too loudly. You're also the one who insulted the Crown Prince, and if Sansa was really the bitchy sister antis paint her as, she would have told Septa Mordane. But instead she covers for both Arya AND Jon's asses (because he's the one that Arya is mimicking) It seems like such a minor thing because I don't think readers at that point would understand how serious that is for someone of Jon's station to be insulting the heir to a throne. Like don't get me wrong I don't care that he did lol, but that considering the nature of Westeros - smallfolk/lowborn etc they've brought up to have a respect/fear for their lords/kings (now whenever or not that is a good thing is another question.... abolish feudalism!! equality baby!!! However thats not going to happen in Dany, Sansa & Arya lifetimes. I feel like Brans election as king is going to be one small step towards progress) and that was a dumb thing for Jon to do. Like it reminds me of how Ilyn Payne insulted Aerys by saying that Tywin was the true king and then Aerys had his tongue ripped out.

Just as book Dany stans love Dany because they've wildly misunderstood her plot and character, these same Dany stans hate Sansa because they've wildly misinterpreted her character, her arc, and motivations. For example some think she is on an redemptive arc after her "betrayals" in AGOT. Or I've come across Dany stans who geniuely think Sansa is going down a dark path and is a "villian in the making".

5. Some Dany and Arya stans have a similar view of Sansa in that she is only meant to serve/support them & couldn't be important in her own right. And they resent the idea of that not being the case.

Wow I didn't mean to get so long winded. Hope this answers the question though lol!

#sansa stark #anti dany stans #anti arya stans #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #antis don't interact #got #game of thrones #asks

[joannalannister]

Anonymous asked:

Hey there, Lauren! I love your blog and metas! I have a question for you, in terms of the book, could you tell me when and where Daenerys shows signs of being a tyrant or a fascist? I see lots of metas say that she is, but from what I've read, I don't see any signs of that? Sure, she kills her enemies, but what powerful monarch doesn't? I just feel like the fandom has a very biased and double standard hatred when it comes to her, and I would like your opinion! Thank you!

Before I answer your question, we need some sort of working definition of fascism. To achieve this, I would like to quote a disabled person who helped lead the fight against fascism for years, and who died in the line of duty:

Over a year and a half ago I said this [...]: "The militarists in Berlin, and Rome and Tokyo started this war, but the massed angered forces of common humanity will finish it."

Today that prophecy is in the process of being fulfilled. The massed, angered forces of common humanity are on the march. They are going forward [...] 

We will have no truck with Fascism in any way, in any shape or manner. We will permit no vestige of Fascism to remain. [...]

In every country conquered by the Nazis and the Fascists, or the Japanese militarists, the people have been reduced to the status of slaves or chattels.

It is our determination to restore these conquered peoples to the dignity of human beings, masters of their own fate, entitled to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom from want, and freedom from fear.

We have started to make good on that promise. I am sorry if I step on the toes of those Americans who, playing party politics at home, call that kind of foreign policy “crazy altruism” and “starry-eyed dreaming.”

--President Franklin D. Roosevelt, July 28th, 1943 Fireside Chat

What did the fascist Nazi Party stand for in WWII?

Historically, there was no Nazi Party apart from their racial and social agenda. It was a party founded on racial distinctions, with a vision to dramatically transform their society. The Nazis disliked and persecuted anyone who they did not consider Aryan. They persecuted and killed Jewish people, homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and communists, and they wanted to eliminate people with mental or physical ailments. The Nazis pushed women out of the workplace and actively promoted patriarchy. [x]

But where does GRRM come into this?

I wasn’t a complete pacifist; I couldn’t claim to be that. I was what they called an objector to a particular war. I would have been glad to fight in World War II. But Vietnam was the only war on the menu. [x]

GRRM’s ethical views are at their clearest and most concise while discussing slavery and dehumanization in his (most excellent and highly recommended) vampire novel, Fevre Dream:

I never held much with slavery […]. You can’t just go… usin’ another kind of people, like they wasn’t people at all. Know what I mean? Got to end, sooner or later. Better if it ends peaceful, but it’s got to end even if it has to be with fire and blood, you see? Maybe that’s what them abolitionists been sayin’ all along. You try to be reasonable, that’s only right, but if it don’t work, you got to be ready. Some things is just wrong. They got to be ended.

Some things are worth fighting for. Fascism requires opposition, some form of opposition, or it will steamroller all over you. 

My regret now is not that I stayed my arm, but that I remained aloof in my window while others protested peacefully outside. It would be naïve to think that those marching in neo-Nazi parades could have a change of heart from such efforts, but I am more concerned with those who are not marching for anything. We must convince the apathetic to care, and stop those who are walking down the path of hatred before it becomes too late.

--David Olin, The View from My Window, Berkeley 2018, written for the Elie Wiesel Foundation for Humanity 

Now, let me apply this to ASOIAF piece by piece. 

In every country conquered [...] the people have been reduced to the status of slaves or chattels.

This is Tywin. This is Tywin enslaving people as part of his militaristic campaign of aggressive force in the Riverlands. This is Tywin sanctioning the capture and torture of innocent people. This is Tywin “using” other kinds of people and disregarding the fact that they are human beings. This is Tywin enslaving Arya Stark. This is Tywin impressing people to work in his gold mines on a whim, as we learn in AGOT. This is Tywin reducing people to the status of slaves or chattels. This is Tywin. 

I don’t know how many different ways I can say it, but as I’ve said before and will say again: Tywin is the character in the ASOIAF books who most prominently espouses fascist ideology. 

There are other characters in the main series -- Roose Bolton and Randyll Tarly, for example -- who also exhibit characteristics of fascist ideology, but I would argue that it is Tywin who is the fascist poster boy of ASOIAF ... and it is also Tywin who is one of the main villains who is drawing humanity’s attention south away from the true threat of the Others, who wish to turn every living thing into their slaves and playthings. (Littlefinger also comes to mind.) Tywin is an unwitting general in the Others’ army. Tywin is fighting the Others’ Campaign of Dehumanization on their behalf. 

The Nazis disliked and persecuted anyone who they did not consider Aryan. 

Substitute “Aryan” for “Lannister” and this is Tywin. “a Lannister, and worth more.” It is Tywin who pushes an agenda of Lannister superiority and it is Tywin to whom non-Lannisters aren’t human, to the point that he had to marry his own cousin. He dislikes non-Lannisters so much he had to marry his own cousin!!!! It’s Tywin who passed down his obsession with blood purity to his children to the point that they literally have to fuck each other. It’s Tywin who puts his House (a proxy for his race) above the individuals in it; it’s Tywin who doesn’t care if Cersei and Jaime and Tyrion are ground to dust under his disgusting ideology as long as House Lannister reigns supreme. 

"Spice soldiers and cheese lords," his lord father called them, with contempt. 

This is Tywin. 

Non-Lannisters aren’t fully human to Tywin. This is fascist ideology!!!!

It was a party founded on racial distinctions

This is Tywin and Kevan, refusing to allow the Westerlings to marry into their family because of “doubtful blood”!!!!! (”Ser Kevan seldom had a thought that Lord Tywin had not had first.”) 

It was a party founded on racial distinctions

This is Tywin and his refusal to allow a betrothal between Jaime and Elia. 

they wanted to eliminate people with mental or physical ailments. 

This is Tywin and his hatred toward disabled Tyrion. This is Tywin and his refusal to allow a betrothal between Jaime and disabled Elia. 

The Nazis pushed women out of the workplace and actively promoted patriarchy.

This is Tywin. This is Randyll hating on Brienne of Tarth. (And you can bet your ass Tywin doesn’t approve of women with swords.) 

I don’t know how many ways I can say it: Tywin and others like him are the fascists. 

Tywin is one of the cold fucks the AGOT prologue warns us about in the very beginning: “the real enemy is the cold.” 

The central conflict of ASOIAF is between the living (the fire) and the dead (the cold), those who would recognize your humanity and those who won’t. 

It is our determination to restore these conquered peoples to the dignity of human beings, masters of their own fate

^^ This is Daenerys Targaryen ^^

Daenerys Targaryen is a freedom fighter who kills slavers in the books. 

Her breakup of the economic system of Essos (meaning SLAVERY) is more akin to a communist revolution than a fascist takeover imo. Daenerys associates herself with people of all races, all classes. She gives Missandei, who canonically has dark skin in the books, a place as one of her closest advisors. Unlike Tywin, Daenerys is not pushing an agenda of Targaryen superiority. 

Daenerys is not perfect. She does not always get it right. Daenerys has got some things wrong. But I don’t think there has been any other option for Daenerys. You ... you can’t just look the other way when evil men are crucifying children, and I truly do not think that non-violent opposition would change anything in Essos. “Better if it ends peaceful, but it’s got to end even if it has to be with fire and blood, you see?” 

Sometimes innocents like Hazzea have died on Daenerys’s journey. 

And I fully believe that more people are going to die in TWOW, and that Daenerys will hold herself responsible, whether she is or not. I know that TWOW will give all the antis of every character a lot of ammunition. TWOW is going to be a dark and depressing book. 

I think that Daenerys is going to reach a very low point in TWOW, just as Tyrion is nose-diving in ADWD, but I think that’s just what GRRM does with his greatest heroes. It’s the moment in a movie when the hero falls off the cliff, and the Evil Villain starts cackling maniacally and you think all is lost, and then you see the hero’s hand reach up over the edge and the music crescendos as the hero pulls himself up. Except the real villains that GRRMs heroes are battling are themselves. The cliff is a metaphor for our darkest impulses. 

Characters tell Dany in AGOT that “she is nothing” but Dany’s story is about proving them wrong. It’s about her finding her own dignity and worth as a human being out on the Dothraki Sea, and becoming the master of her own fate. As her story progresses, she helps others to do the same, helping people to rediscover their dignity, to regain their names (or take new ones), to find the humanity that was stolen from them. 

(This is why it’s so important to me that her story intersect with zombie!Jon, so that she can help a dead man remember what it is to be human and remember why it all matters. Because if none of it matters ... if a man can’t find a fuck to give, well, that’s Tywin Lannister, who was a cold dead man long before Tyrion shot him.) 

I brought up FDR in the beginning of this post. Although FDR died before GRRM was born, he was one of the great American cultural figures of the 20th century and I have no doubt FDR’s legacy was a formative influence on GRRM. And that’s the thing - so many of these, these great American cultural figures of GRRM’s life died before their work was completed: FDR, JFK, MLK, so many others... The promised land is somewhere ahead of us, despite the opposition making accusations of “crazy altruism” and “starry-eyed dreaming.” No one is going to drive us there and drop us off; we have to get there by ourselves, and the journey isn’t an easy one. It’s a place we have to keep striving for, working for. A dream of spring...

It’s not Daenerys’s destiny, I think, to rule humanity in the long term; Dany’s destiny is, I think, to make sure that humanity doesn’t, well, lose their humanity. To make sure that humanity doesn’t fall into eldritch slavery.

The Others would make us automatons in their icy, inhuman regime. The Others would steam-roller all over humanity, and take away humanity’s freedom to choose, as Tywin Lannister tries to do to his children, trying to take all of their choices away and control them completely. The Others would take away our self-determination, our freedom to choose good or evil, our freedom to be the rulers of our own fate. 

I don’t think it’s Daenerys job to be a ruler in the end. I think she’s fighting evil now so that other people can keep fighting that good-and-evil “human heart in conflict with itself” fight long after she’s gone ... I’ve never believed in a “Targaryen restoration” ending although I wouldn’t necessarily be opposed to it. 

Like Moses, Daenerys won’t lead us into the promised land ... we have to get there ourselves. 

And I’ve strayed from your question into a topic that’s more interesting to me because I cannot fucking belieeeeeeve that you are even asking me if the compassionate, caring, teenage-girl, sexual-abuse-survivor, messiah-figure Daenerys Targaryen is a fucking fascist when everything Daenerys “the fire is mine” Targaryen does is in narrative opposition to Certified Fucking Fascist Tywin Racist Lannister oh my god I cannot believe this is where we’ve come to as a fandom, I cannot fucking belieeeeeeve. 

Anon. Honey. Baby. I say this gently, with love: Whyyyyyyyyy are you reading “Daenerys is a fascist” metas? That didn’t even work on the show. 

When I googled “Daenerys Targaryen fascist” to try and figure out what you could possibly be reading to argue against it, the top result is an alt-right thinkpiece website about how dangerous Dany was all along in freeing slaves!!!! And the next results are people who think the iron throne actually matters when GRRM himself has said that the political war is a red herring. 

The endgame rulers don’t even particularly matter because what matters in the end is that humanity wins against the Others and we still have control over ourselves, what matters is for that human heart conflict to continue to exist inside ourselves and that we rule over that conflict inside ourselves. 

"We all must choose," she proclaimed.

Practice some self-care; go read Armageddon Rag, and remember this: TWOW is not going to save us. 

#to my friends out there: shoutout to Comrade Drogon ☭ #daenerys targaryen #tywin lannister #asoiaf meta #lannister thoughts #tywin meta #dany meta #fascist masculinity #fascist masculinity in asoiaf #asoiaf and the american mythos #the meaning of asoiaf #the war for the dawn #endgame #fascism

[vanimeldes]

can you elaborate a bit what made you divorce from asoiaf/got as you say?

Ooof, so, after the G0T finale, I think my reasons should be obvious, but you also mentioned the books and yes, I lost my interest in books too and I will try to not make this answer too long, but in the same time, to convey all my thoughts on this matter.

*Putting it below cut because.... when I`ll explain the problem of Martin`s fans later, you`ll understand why*

It`s amazing that just a year ago, AS0IAF was my second favourite franchise ever, second only to Tolkien legendarium, but even then, I didn`t love it for the fantasy elements in it, but rather for its characters and some twists and how Martin does forshadowing and writes the dualistic nature of the human being, but...as I read other fantasy series that do these four things AND have fantasy elements, I paused a bit and thought that these series would be just as popular, if they had popular adaptations such as G0T. But I got that AS0IAF was the first that had the opportunity to be adapted and I accepted that. Yet the show highlighted (and in some cases, amplified) some of the very big issues of these books and yes, D&D have many things to be blamed of, but it`s not as if they didn`t have a basis for their fuckery in the books. Martin is just as guilty. So here we go.

1. I am not sure if Martin has ever seen a 13 year old girl, but he writes grown-ass men having fixations and being sexually attracted by Daenerys and Sansa, two prepubescent girl. Martin would call it the gritty realism of the medieval times, but last time I checked, he was writing fantasy, not historical fiction. Fantasy means you can do what you want in your world, so even if you are inspired by the medieval times, it`s still YOUR fictional world and no one will question your research or accuracy if you want to have a female character married when she is at least, say, 18, not FUCKING 13. Not to mention that even in our real world, child brides existed but, guess what, in most the cases, both spouses waited until the wife reached a certain age (16 or older) to consummate their marriage. @eyes-painted-with-kohl explained in the notes of one of my posts and even gave an example or two. I can think of Isabella of France and Edward II. They were married when she was 13 (according to some historical evidence)/16 (according to others). Yes, I know he was homosexual, but he still needed heirs, so they still had children...4 years later, when she was 17/20.  

2. In this same vein, the treatment of his female characters (with the exception of Arya and, maybe Catelyn) is egregious. Daenerys and Sansa are sexualized by the male characters (don`t get me started of the bullshit that is S/ansan, because The Hound is still a murderous man who is aroused by a 12 year-old girl, who invaded her personal space and even pointed a knife to her; do not get me started on book!Jorah, who is a creep). Cersei is paraded naked on the streets and needless to say that during the walk of atonement for an adulterous woman in medieval times, she was never stripped naked; she only had her hair shaved and walked BAREFOOT. That`s it. What Martin did to Cersei is just disgusting. We are shown how Arianne uses sex to have Ser Arys help with her plans and it is implied that Margaery uses sex also. I get that sex is Cersei`s mechanism, but you have two more feminine (this is important) women in power and both of them explicitly use, or are implied to use sex as a mean to gain that power. I get Brienne`s point, her treatment bothers me the least, but it`s annoying from time to time how most of the other characters see only her ”ugliness” and nothing else. Of course, this is the result of the heavy patriarchy in Westeros world that I will discuss in the next paragraph.

3. The heavy patriarchy in Westeros world is nowhere similar to the patriarchy in the medieval times, and that was Martin`s choice and his only. A clear example is what was dubbed the Dead Ladies Club, namely a group of dead female characters whose only purpose was to serve as object of desire for one or more men, to give birth AND to die (gruesomely in some cases). Joanna Lannister is meant only to further fuel the enmity between Tywin and Aerys and Tywin`s hatred towards Tyrion. Elia exists solely to die gruesomely and motivate Doran`s desire for vengeance. Lyanna (the most explored dead lady still exists mainly to give birth to Jon and to be one of the reasons behind a war started by men. Rhaella exists solely to be raped by Aerys and give birth and die. Ashara Dayne exists solely to commit suicide. Ned, a POV character, spends chapters thinking about his father and siblings and never to his mother. Martin had the audacity to say that Tolkien himself didn`t left notes about Aragorn`s mother, but Tolkien had an entire story when Aragorn`s mother and her impact of his life is explored (more than his father, for that matter). The heavy patriarchy serves as reason for the utterly disgusting right of the first night (read Fire & Blood for more). I am not so versed into history as @mydaylightruyi who discussed this, but I too know that in our real world, this practice was a MYTH. But GRRM made it very present in his world because of reasons I guess. 

4. The racism is just rampant and disgusting and even I didn`t notice all the racism until I read @polysorscha `s insights. There`s a to be discussed here, mainly about the portrayal of the Dothraki and how they are reduced to barbaric rapists - interestingly, they are supposedly inspired by Huns, but guess what: the Huns formed a very permisive society, where any religion and culture had its places, where women were very respected and, while cruel  in the European people`s POV, were never....like THIS. 

5. The rape cultures. The Ironborn. Similarly to the Dothraki, their culture is reduced to pillaging and rape. That scene when Euron conquers that castle in the Reach ( I forgot its name) and how he had the daughters of that lord stripped naked and serve his men the meal, and how his men started raping them was....honestly, I wish I could have skipped this chapter. I still read fantasy books written by men more than I read fantasy books written by women, but never in my life did it occur to me to read something like this in a novel that is so hailed for fantasy (?) and realism (???????). I`m not saying that things like that didn`t happen in our cruel history but, again, Martin writes a fictional story. He could choose not to include the rampant violence against women, cultures whose practices are reduced to this utterly gross things, racist and orientalist elements, but he chooses not to. Why? I don`t know. I am not sure I want to know. And Victarion`s POV...oh boy. Or Theon, in ACOK, when he literally rapes that Kyra girl after takes Winterfell. Not only that it`s very disturbing, especially coming from a character that is supposed to be redeemed in some way (yes, I know how he`s been through in ADWD and I also know this is meant to be his redemption arc, but I personally still can`t get over this). And in the same time, while we`re still at the redemption discussion, Theon will surely undergo a redemption of some sorts, Cersei (a female character) will most likely be killed by her lover/brother, who will strangle her to death, most likely while he will embrace her, without a second chance of a droplet of redemption. 

6. I love Tyrion and I love Tywin but in the same time, I acknowledge their misogyny, but Martin chose to write them as misogynists, but in the same time, writing them in such ways that they are inherently labelled as „badass”. He also says that Tyrion is his favourite, but his POV is utterly misogynistic. The reason he kills Shae is because she dared to sleep with his father, but let`s unpack the things a bit: she was a former sex worker with no power, who was forced by the most powerful man in Westeros. She had no choice. She couldn`t refuse him. Yet, for Tyrion, she is ”the lying whore” and that`s it. We are given no chance to try to see the things from her POV (I am not implying that she should have been a POV character, but Martin should have written Tyrion considering for a moment what other choices Shae had). 

7. I discovered that Martin straightly ripped-off many plot points and themes from another series who isn`t half as popular, sadly. 

8. Last, but not the least, the snake pit that is THE FANDOM. You know, as much as I tried to stay away from its toxicity because „it`s just an internet thing, it can`t affect me”, it did affect my online experience in ways that I hadn`t imagined. To sum up, if you don`t like a character or hate another, you are  a pariah. You are dumb because you don`t understand that character or you are a misogynist (because, sadly, this discourse is mostly about the female characters). If you dare to voice up your thoughts about a certain event and/or a certain character and tag your post as #asoiaf or #asoiaf meta (you know, because this is it to me: a meta; plus, I want to have an ordering system in my blog so that whenever I want to look for a certain post in a certain topic or fandom, I would only look into the tag) or #my meta (highlighted „MY” because this is also important, as in it`s MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION), and those thoughts happen to not fit into the general consensus of the „great AS0IAF bloggers” (namely those meta writers with many followers who sound like they already read TWOW and ADOS), you are trashed and called an idiot. Granted, I met enough great people, meta writers included, in this fandom, and it was a real pleasure to chat with them, but I also had bad experiences with others and idk, I thought we were all mature people, but the way they reacted can hardly be described as mature. And in the same point, it`s just funny to see the hardcore Martin stans reacting in front of the clear evidence that Martin isn`t half as original as they thought (see 7) and acting like they are personally attacked.

Ok, it took me an hour. There is a lot more to discussed, but I got bored and I honestly want to shut the door to this fandom forever. To answer another question, yes, I will be reading the last two books  if when they will come out. I invested many months in this series not to finish it. I`ll probably block all the ASOIAF-related tags to avoid any interaction with its fandom during those times.

#ask #anonymous #asoiaf criticism #grrm criticism #anti grrm #yes i tagged this as such #any hater will be blocked

[apiratecalledav]

Okay, reluctantly leaving my happily ever after AU/denial land for a minute because it’s been like two months and I still see people say bullshit like, “If Jaime was going to go back to Cersei, then Brienne should have died” and urgh. No. Just... no.

I won’t even get into how awful it is to reduce Brienne to that as a character within her own right because trivializing and misinterpreting her relationship with Jaime is bad enough. The main reason being that it completely overlooks one of the most important and poignant parts of Jaime’s character:

That even though Cersei was “the end of” Jaime, Jaime was in a lot of ways “the beginning of” Brienne.

While Cersei and Jaime were like kindling and oxygen getting devoured by fire and were destructive and toxic, Jaime and Brienne were like music and lyrics; complete individuals in their own right, but when they’re combined they created something new and amazing. Like two Valyrian steel swords reforged from one greatsword. If fate had been kinder, they would have been very happy together.

Unfortunately, growing up with Tywin (and Cersei), serving Aerys, and spending half his life being unjustly reviled, Jaime had a lot of issues with guilt and self-loathing that no one who didn’t take several advanced psychology classes would have been able to help with.

But despite Jaime’s personal demons, he tried as hard as he could to build up Brienne, not drag her down the way that Cersei did to him. Instead of using his relationship with Brienne for his benefit, he used it to benefit her: He helped Brienne to fulfill her oath to Cat and indirectly led to her being able to avenge Renly. He made it possible for her to go from being regarded as a failure and an oddity to being successful and respected. He knighted her. She fell in love with him and he loved her, too. No, it wasn’t enough to “fix” him (news flash: love isn’t a cure), but it was way, way more than what everyone around her ever expected. He loved her, not her father’s title or lands. And he loved her not in spite of her unusual, knightly demeanor but because of it.  And it wasn’t wishful thinking or all in her head or “but only as a friend.” Jaime Lannister, who was like, a five time winner of Westerosi Weekly’s “Sexiest Man Alive,” looked at Brienne of Tarth like this (so fuck you, Ronnet): 

Cersei saw Jaime as an extension of herself— her “other half” who got to have the kind of power and autonomy in society she desperately wished for herself because he was a man. Her feelings for him stemmed from narcissism and selfishness, dooming Jaime to virtually never being “good enough.”

Jaime also saw Brienne as everything he wished he could be— a true knight who was valiant and honorable, not because she was sworn to do so, but because she wanted to be. The difference here is that Jaime’s feelings for Brienne developed from admiration and respect and he is the one who didn’t feel worthy of her.

Because while Tyrion saw Jaime being with Brienne as Jaime finally allowing himself to be happy, I felt like Jaime saw it as being selfish. Telling Tyrion to “say something snide” made me think he was looking to be chastised. When Brienne tries to talk him out of dying with Cersei and tells him that he’s a good man, he nearly bursts into tears and reveals all of the worst things about himself. The most genuine and heartbreaking “it’s not you; it’s me” speech, like... ever.

If he truly believed that Brienne needed him, he would have stayed with her. We saw a long time ago that he was willing to leave the road that led back to Cersei to save Brienne from the bear pit, and risk his own life in the process. Just as he lost his right hand, his sword hand— when he believed that he “was that hand” and once said he’d rather die than be “grotesque”— to protect Brienne and keep her “whole.”

Even if it was only on a subconscious level, he obviously believed Brienne deserved to live more than he or Cersei did. But Brienne is safe after 8x03; the dead are defeated and she’s not only on the side with a damn dragon, she won’t even be expected to leave Sansa and Arya to fight. The only thing Jaime believes he’s doing for her is clouding her judgment, i.e. “tricking” her into thinking that he’s good and that he deserves her. In his mind, he did the same thing to Brienne that Cersei did to him. He thought Brienne would start making excuses for him, just as he had done so many times for Cersei. Look at his face and eyes when she says “You’re a good man.”

When Jaime told Tyrion that he “never cared” for innocents, I don’t believe he’s a Scooby-Doo villain removing his mask and saying, “Surprise! I’ve been an asshole all along.” It’s just the way he saw himself because he didn’t know how else to explain his mistakes, the (innocent) people he had hurt, or his inability to stop caring about Cersei even though she was horrible. We know that Jaime’s attachment to Cersei is unhealthy and the result of emotional abuse and other factors resulting from trauma. But Jaime saw it as proof he was a bad person.

He did for Brienne what (I can easily imagine) he wished Cersei had done for him— He tells Brienne that he’s hateful and effectively sets her “free” of him. When he perceived himself to be perpetuating the cycle of abuse, he stopped it (more “break the wheel” imagery?). Yeah, he did it in an awful, hurtful way but we have to remember that Jaime had no access to therapy, self-help books, advice columns, google, etc. He hadn’t had or even really seen a healthy relationship since his mother died when he was like seven. On top of that, his last real moment of pure love and acceptance was with Myrcella... about thirty seconds before she died in his embrace. That alone would screw up anyone. It’s tragic and devastating, but Jaime wasn’t in a place to make Brienne happy long term and he had absolutely no idea how to change that. It was easier to shut down those negative feelings when he could say, “I have a noble purpose: help stop ice demons and zombies from destroying the world.” When he couldn’t say that anymore, it got to be too much for him.

I’ve long thought that applying the “redemption arc” label to Jaime (or any asoif/got character, really) was a little too... simplistic. Like most major characters, Jaime has undoubtedly done some reprehensible things, the worst being his attempt to kill Bran. But unlike say Joffrey or Ramsay, Jaime’s thought process wasn’t, “Hey, let’s push this kid out of a window and see if his bones make a sweet crunching noise when he lands!”

He was thinking, “Oh, shit. This kid is probably too young to ‘play it cool’ for long around his parents after being threatened or bribed... And if he blabs, that’s my head cut off, Cersei’s head cut off, and if Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella aren’t immediately executed right behind us, they’ll be locked up until they’re old enough that people are less squeamish about chopping off their heads, too. And gee, I bet dear old Dad isn’t going to take that lying down...”

In a world as brutal as theirs, it’s difficult for me to condemn anyone too harshly for trying to protect themselves or their loved ones, provided they aren’t cavalier about collateral damage (for example, Cersei blowing up the sept with more than just her enemies inside and people in the surrounding area ending up getting crushed by the debris).

Early on, Jaime appeared to be arrogant, callous, and convinced that violence was an “easy solution.” As the series progressed, mostly through his growing friendship with Brienne, we discovered that a great deal of Jaime’s behavior was a defense mechanism.

After his “Kingslayer” persona slowly falls away, we eventually see “Jaime” (re)born in Brienne’s arms.

Soon, we even saw him gain a shiny, newly reforged Valyrian steel sword to go along with his new beginning . But he didn’t even have the sword very long before he turned around and gave it to Brienne— and kept the “tainted” Widow’s Wail for himself.

And when Brienne tried to return Oathkeeper,  that precious symbol of hope and honor and second chances, Jaime refused it and told her, “It’s yours. It will always be yours.” (Emphasis mine)

I know we were hoping that Brienne would “save” Jaime— and I firmly believe she was instrumental in saving his soul— but Jaime ended up ultimately saving Brienne. He saved her life, but he also saved her from an existence of loneliness and ridicule. In 4x02 (written by GRRM btw), Brienne tells Cersei, “In truth, he rescued me, Your Grace. More than once.”

Jaime was a flawed and deeply troubled person, but he tried his damnedest to give Brienne everything. No, he couldn’t literally do so— he couldn’t give her his whole, undamaged heart— but he still gave her so much: His admiration; his faith; his trust; his sword; his right hand; her protégé Podrick; helped her fulfill her vows and find good friends like Sansa, Tyrion, and Davos, and a kindred spirit in Arya; and made her dearest wish come true. What is that, if not love, of the truest and deepest kind?

Though Jaime likely thought his knighting of Brienne was merely a nice thing to do for her on their supposed last night on earth, it ended up having an unexpected and incredible impact once the North gained independence: Knights were already mainly a Southern thing and Brienne’s knighthood would have been absolutely worthless in an independent North. Sansa, being completely safe and secure and obviously knowing how much being knighted meant to Brienne, would assure her that she was released from her vow to Catelyn’s daughters. And so Ser Brienne is free to return to the Six Kingdoms, and offer her services to the new King, Cat Stark’s last surviving son. To Bran.

While Jaime once hurt Bran for Cersei’s sake and accidentally paved the way for years of war and destruction, Brienne, thanks to Jaime knighting her, will be able to dedicate herself to protecting Bran, insuring peace, and helping to rebuild.

All of the best parts of Jaime live on in Brienne and not just because she finished his entry in the Book of Brothers. She, and the doors that Jaime opened for her, are his legacy.

Brienne will be able to do the kinds of things Jaime wanted to do but couldn’t. She’ll help restore honor to the knighthood. There will be more Ser Briennes and Ser Davoses and Ser Podricks and fewer Ser Gregors, Ser Armorys, and Ser Meryns.

It truly baffles me to see people bitching about “wasted character arcs” and yet in the same breath are ready to throw Brienne and everything Jaime did for her away. Jaime’s character was frustrating and heartbreaking and maddening but it wasn’t a waste precisely because he made it possible for Brienne to have a bright future and a good life and it’s the proof that he truly was ultimately a much better person than his sister.

TL;DR:  If we must pigeonhole Jaime into the whole “redemption” thing, can’t we see that he did redeem himself through Brienne— by supporting her and validating her and making it possible for her to do the kind of great things he wished he could do himself?

PS: I’m fairly certain Jaime and Cersei’s ending was “softened” for the show, the way so many other characters and events have been. I highly doubt she’ll be pregnant and the idea that he was largely motivated to save their child certainly helped make the whole thing easier for me to swallow. As  Tyland Lannister, hand to the “broken King” Aegon III,  screams “Tyrion and Bran,” and Elissa Farman appears to be foreshadowing Arya’s similar journey/let’s us know it’s very possible she’ll survive... Aelora and Aelor Targaryen make me wonder if book Jaime will accidentally kill Cersei and then freak out and commit suicide. And if that’s the case, I’m glad the show went with something different, as rushed and clumsy as it was. I am glad that Jaime’s last moments weren’t violent or angry or otherwise cruel and didn’t have to add more to his overwhelming guilt and despair.

If he had to die, and especially if he had to die with Cersei, then it’s a good thing that he got to die as Joanna’s son— not Tywin’s— and as Tyrion’s brother— not Cersei’s. He got to die as the man who Brienne fell in love with: Someone who was brave and compassionate, fulfilling his oath, and being honorable in his way, even if it’s not in the way society (or the audience) understands or likes. Even though he was with Cersei, he remained as the man who could see— and love— the vulnerable human being beneath their “monstrous” exterior, just as he did for Brienne and Tyrion. Maybe Cersei didn’t “deserve” that, but Jaime certainly did. And in the White Book, when it’s said that Jaime died protecting his Queen, it’s not a lie. Which is the last thing Jaime would have wanted: “I'll hack the bloody book to pieces before I'll fill it with lies.”

I don’t know if Old Jaime would have intentionally hurt or murdered Cersei, but I definitely think he would have at least hurled out one last massive fuck you in a similar “why have the gods made me love a hateful woman?” way. He’d have reminded her that none of this would have happened if she wasn’t such a stubborn, vindictive wretch: If she hadn’t pushed Joffrey to ditch Sansa for Margaery, whose grandma ended up killing him; if she hadn’t tried to get Tyrion falsely executed, she wouldn’t have set off a chain of events that led to Tywin and Myrcella dying; if she hadn’t tried to screw over Margaery by giving the High Sparrow power; if she hadn’t blown up the Sept, Tommen wouldn’t have killed himself; if she had kept her promise to fight in the North; if she had just stepped down when Dany arrived, etc then maybe they wouldn’t about to damn near literally get crushed to death by all of Cersei’s bad decisions.

Old Jaime talked a lot of shit to people, presumably trying to make himself feel better. But he realized at some point, all it did was make them as miserable as he was. So in the end, when Cersei is so pitifully scared and sad, instead of getting pissed off or bitter, Jaime comforts her the best he can; an ability I don’t think he would have developed if it hadn’t been for his relationship with Brienne. We even see some rare moments of genuine selflessness from Cersei (“You’re bleeding” and “I don’t want our baby to die”). In Jaime and Cersei’s final moments, they act as close to normal siblings as they are capable, seeing as they don’t even try to kiss (thank goodness). This leaves Brienne as the last person Jaime kissed. And to me, that says it all.

Okay, back to our regularly scheduled “Grey Worm and Missandei said ‘fuck you, Westeros’ after The Long Night and dropped Jaime and Brienne off at Tarth on their way to Naath” way of life. 

#jaime lannister #brienne of tarth #jaime x brienne #braime #ser brienne #game of thrones #a song of ice and fire

[daenerysice]

I'm so upset we won't ever get to see daenerys interacting with other people than her private council. I wanted so much to see her interacting with the dothraki, with qhono who appeared by her side so many times. With more of the unsullied. See her petting rhaegal and viserion more like in the books. See her talking with davos and gendry. People who actually liked and respected her.

AGREED COMPLETELY 

she has to be close with these people and yet they completely cut that off and acting like ‘she’s all alone’

season one really was the only season that did dany justice with her integrating with the dothraki 

other seasons kind of showed she was a person that got along with her people but didn’t really show much of that in detail

people have made this complaint about arya too

arya is not a closed-off person that ‘doesn’t trust outsiders’ 

she is a social person and interactions with many different people as does dany

this is why i say d&d are also scum because they basically reduced the unsullied and dothraki to ‘props’ and didn’t care to humanize them like they did the wildlings or night’s watch

they had all the time in the world to do this, even just a scene of maybe her patching things up with qhono after he said some shit about her 

show how he became an important member and a person she really trusts (since he’s always by her side now i assume this)

we got NONE of that 

the whole super scene was idiotic 

they tried to convey ‘dany is all alone’ and sure i’m sad that that is the case but like she technically shouldn’t be all alone???

much less should she be jealous of jon when the north is still kind of pissed at him so basically all he has are the wildings and his family who again he’s on thin ice with a fair amount of them because somehow they hate dany???

she has ALL of her dothraki friends (because they somehow re-spawned), she has her unsullied friends, she has greyworm, she has missandei, i’m sure if she just asked jon to talk with her more he would, she could have talked with tyrion, gendry would be happy to talk with her, davos would be happy to talk to her, her dragons would love her company like????

realistically, even with the north hating her she still has more people to pick from to talk to

and yes, more bonding with dragons stuff or even mourning with dragons over viserion or rhaegal, they had the budget

i mean, this is kind of what you get when you rush stuff but i also think they wouldn’t have done any of this stuff anyway because they just wanted her to ‘snap’ because she’s ~so alone~ gag 

#daenerys targaryen #daenerys #game of thrones #got #asks #text #ask

[fromtheseventhhell]

did people actually hate sahnsa or they just didn’t like her as much as arya and her stans and s*phiet took that personally?! her character is the worst written character in the show is unbelievable. a recycled cersei 2.0 and it’s all her and her ego’s fault. give dumb people some attention and they will never stop being annoying . i don’t know how but the writers were the whitest most cliched writers ever. they saw that cersei and sahnsa are dumb and get called dumb by everyone and said: yea that’s realism, that’s complex, guys they wear dresses and work through the system, they are politicians and no one hears them GUYS COMPLEXITY. meanwhile dany and arya just bc they are smart and bold and angry and do more then cersei or sahnsa ever did for ANYONE in their privileged lives in the books, were reduced to girl bosses of the show, one died bc no one loved her in contrast to amaZIng qitn, and the other didn’t care abt anything, not even being a hero who saved humanity, the connection to jon that they have in the books, pure and full of love, nonexistent obviously, and fucked away to god knows where. these two are the main female characters, the pillars on whom this story even had the grounds on when grrm started writing ?!?! how did they do this to these two??? I am glad dany stans took the show down. DESERVED. I don’t want Arya’s actress near the jonsnowshow, let them have their weird j*nsa show together with kit. s*phiet already trashed on arya and maisie..let s*phie and kit have their porn together they are so weird fr with each other. I can’t take anything seriously past s4. putting sahnsa on the center was thedowngrade. and I am glad the fans dragged it to filth. and they should drag it to filth till the books are out and u all get proved wrong. can’t believe they did this to emilia too!! arya and dany deserved better

What's funny is, that's exactly it. It's not that Sansa receives some super special, "feminine" only hatred from fandom it's just that she's not as popular as her stans (and Sophie) wanted her to be. The show did a lot to boost her importance and popularity BUT that also happened around the same time to quality of the writing started to go down. D&D were making changes as early as the first season of course, but when they decided to give Jeyne's plotline to Sansa they were officially done with adapting the books. And you know what? People noticed. They were, rightfully, calling out the poor writing of the entire show but Stansas (and Sophie 💀) took it personally because they liked the importance she was being handed. It wasn't even the writing itself that they liked because despite the increased emphasis on her character, she wasn't actually doing much in the later seasons. Along with that there were plenty of reasons to dislike how she was written. And it still didn't give her the popularity people wanted. Daenerys and Arya were, and are, still fan favorites despite how much they were flattened and warped. Stansa's just thought that she was so great that everyone would start hating Dany and Arya and fawn over their fave instead.

As for the actors, my sympathy's solely lie with Emilia. She was the one who cared the most about her character and having her accurately adapted from the books but the writer's went out of their way to destroy Dany. One of the reasons I want the books to be finished, besides the obvious, is because I want her to experience Dany getting the writing she deserves in some form at least. Arya's character was done dirty but at the time Maisie was fully on board with it (though to her credit she has since admitted that the ending was bad). You can tell Sophie was very invested in Sansa's perception (she was very much projecting on her and liked the favoritism), and she's probably the only cast member actually happy about the show ending. Kit's feelings towards the ending feel artificial and more rooted in him wanting to get his spin-off off the ground.

Tbh I do think that Sophie coming back for the spin-off is more unlikely then Maisie, just from the fact that Kit doesn't personally like Sanas's character which is pretty funny. If there's one thing we don't have to worry about it's Jonsa happening with him being involved in the writing. Not even having George on board would make me interested in whatever story they have to tell though because it has to follow that horrible show. I do love that D&D shot themselves in the foot with their writing; they got fired from the project they rushed to finish GOT for and the show is universally considered one of the worst series finales of all time 😂

#ask #anon #anti got #arya stark #daenerys targaryen #anti sansa stans #anti jonsa stans #long post #this was longer then expected but oh well 😭

[music-thestrongestformofmagic]

Wow. Game Of Thrones stans really be trying to frame criticism to Battle Of Winterfell as "male book snob" thing. Lmao, you guys really be forcing it.

That's bullshit. I am a hardcore feminist, bisexual latin woman. And those moments of badass female characters™ kicking ass™ do not compensate at all the shallow and terrible writing of women characters in this show. And many people I'm seeing criticize the episode are also women.

Lyanna Mormont's death was badass?? Sure thing. I loved it. But does that compensate that she was just a little cliché completely two-dimensional trope with no depth whatsoever? No. Lyanna could be an awesome? Hell yes!!! A kid who has lost her parents, who had this huge crushing responsibility fall on her shoulders as a literal child, who has to grow up incredibly fast, was probably not yet fully ready to rule a house, who had to harden herself with steel and develop that extremely impositive and stubborn attitude in order to be taken seriously by a bunch of old men despite being 1) a child and 2) a girl?? A girl who has lost her innocence, who misses a relatively normal upbringing, who could long for her lost childhood?? Hell fucking yes!!!!! I'm totally here for that!!!!! Was that what we got???? No!!! All of this is literally a logical guess!!!! Because she has no development and nothing is even hinted about her mind!!!! Secondary characters can still have *some* development!!! Instead we only get this girl whose whole role is to make the audience go "yaaaaas slay queen!!!!!" every time she breathes. And, just like Brienne says "weeping like a bloody woman" and Arya says "other girls are stupid" (wow, how feminist), she trashes feminine things such as knitting as useless because she wants to fight™ (one would think a house ruler would recognize the importance of clothes in a cold environment, but apparently not, because slay™). Her sacrifice while taking down a goddamn zombie giant was awesome and I applauded it. That does not mean this character had any actually satisfactory writing.

And about Arya. In the books she is training to become an assassin, and she will probably be brutal and absolutely furtive and pretty much a ninja. However, in the show she barely completed her training. She spent two seasons in Braavos cleaning floors and being persecuted and sticked with the pointed end by the Waif. Then before she actually even progressed in her training she fled but she had already become freaking Batman. Her arc in Braavos was dragged and wasted and boring. They could have advanced her training there, but they didn't. It was two seasons of pretty much nothing happening. But let's focus only on the episode and pretend her arc in Braavos was actually any interesting. Even if she's a ninja, there was literally no build up at all for her to have become Azor Ahai. Does anyone even remember that goddamn prophecy??? There wasn't even any development for its subversion!!! That came out of fucking nowhere!!! "Oh but Melisandre" first of all Dumb & Dumber claim to have had this idea three years ago. That's probably bullshit because the only "foreshadowing" and build up they did for it was exclusively in this season. And even if we're to believe them, the Melisandre thing happened way more than three years ago!!! If anything, it's a retcon!! The only clues they gave of that were this season, not enough for a build-up, and they themselves had said they did that pretty much just to shock™. It was shallow and lazy writing.

As a feminist, I'm completely PISSED at this series for its treatment of women. These fascinating, complex, diverse, deep, multi-dimensional characters were reduced to two-dimensional tropes mostly acting the same, to the male wet dream fantasy/conception of a strong female character™ who hates girly things. A couple of "yasssss slay queen!!!!" scenes will never compensate for multiple seasons of lazy, shallow, clichéd writing of female characters.

So stop framing criticism to the episode as "male book snobs ugh" and talking about this episode as if it was feminist. The show hasn't been feminist in AGES, and those women kicking ass™ moments are pretty much just crumbs and I will NOT be satisfied with that, ESPECIALLY from a show that has previously given us so much better than this.

#game of thrones #arya stark #lyanna mormont #battle of wintefell #anti d&d #feminism #anti game of thrones #game of thrones spoilers

[howlandreads]

I Really Hate This Show, Which I Love More Than Life Itself

Hey guys!! I know I haven’t posted any metas in months, (I’ve been super busy between work and school) but Game of Thrones is back and I’m really going to try and make Tumblr a priority for at least the next six weeks!  As you can probably tell from my previous posts I’m pretty anti D&D and have significant issues with their adaptation of ASOIAF, but I’m also pretty excited that one of the biggest events in fandom history is taking place every Sunday for the next month and a half, so I’m pretty conflicted about my feelings for the show right now -- That being said, here’s my general thoughts on Season 8 Episode 1 – “Winterfell”:

I don’t have too much to say about the “previously on” section of the episode, but I did find two things particularly interesting.  The first is something @theusurpersdog mentioned to me; Cersei says “The monsters are real,” and then we get a smash cut to D*ny riding Drogon. Most people have assumed the audience is meant to see the dragons as monsters, but it could also be foreshadowing some oncoming Dark!Dany content.  The second thing I found interesting was how the clip of Bran’s Warg eyes is shown right before we see Viserion’s Wight eyes, which might be some foreshadowing for the popular theory that Bran’s going to Warg a dragon this season.

Next is the opening scene where we see Jon and D*ny arriving to the North, which is the first of this episode’s 1,000 callbacks to the first episode. It’s a scene that’s clearly meant to mirror Robert’s arrival to Winterfell from “Winter Is Coming”, which mostly works except for the fact that the Baratheon theme is playing in the background despite the fact that there’s not a Baratheon in sight, except for Gendry, who’s not even a true Baratheon.  

I adore Maisie Williams in this scene.  Last season’s Arya was such a mess, and though I still feel show Arya is nothing compared to the complexity of ASOIAF’s Arya, she seems to be much more herself this episode.  The look on her face when she sees Jon is perfect, as is her subtle heartbreak when he doesn’t notice her.  I continue to be tired of the amount of The Hound content D&D continue to subject us to, but I do like that we see Arya’s joy at seeing that Gendry is alive.

Though I love Arya in this scene, the most important part is D*enarys.  In a crowd of dark fur coats, she stands out clothed in pure white, and the Northerners take notice. This scene also sets her up as a liability to Jon, both with the North and his own family.  When he’s with D*ny he misses Arya in the crowd, setting up the recurring theme of the episode that the more he’s with her the less he’s a Stark. I also appreciate that her first appearance of the season shows that the fear of the subjugated is what she’s after, not their love or respect.  Her delight at the terror her dragons instill seems to bode well for Dark!Dany theories. Overall, I enjoyed how the dragons were portrayed.  I love that Arya is awestruck, and that Sansa is in wonder for a moment, but immediately sees the danger in their presence in the North.  Sophie plays this brilliantly, and the look of resolve Sansa has shows that she won’t be intimidated by grand displays of superiority from D*ny.

I have a lot of thoughts on the courtyard reunion scene, but I’ll only mention the really important things since I don’t want this post to be too long.  The reunion of Jon and Bran was good, but not nearly as good as their relationship deserved. Jon and Sansa’s reunion left a lot to be desired.  Why is Sansa only glad to see him for less than a second before she’s side-eying D*ny? So many of my issues with D&D come from their inability to write women who aren’t reduced to pure pettiness, and this episode was a classic example of their failure to provide complex female characters.  Sansa is so justified in her concerns about D*ny and I wish the writing portrayed her as a an incredibly intelligent Lady of Winterfell, who has every right to bitterness towards the woman who’s demanded the fealty of her people, instead of just another small-minded and petty female character who’s more concerned with glaring at D*ny than she is with fighting the fast approaching White Walkers. D*ny stans also have a right to be offended by this episode as D*ny is fairly one dimensional as well.  

Sexist writing aside, my biggest issue with this scene is that somehow nobody cares that a freaking undead dragon is coming their way.  Not even D*ny, the Mother of Dragons, is given more than a two second reaction shot.  This should be devastating for her, and her plotline for the episode should have been her processing her grief.

There’s a lot of issues with this scene, but I will say that Bran is amazing throughout this scene and the whole episode.  Is he the ASOIAF Bran that I love? No, but he is spectacularly dramatic and I’m here for it.

Next is the Great Hall scene.  Again, the Northerners are treated as small-minded and petty over their concern for titles and independence, and I fail to see why.  Westeros is a feudal society, which means of course titles mean everything.  And beyond titles, of course Northerners are justified in their want for independence.  Each Kingdom has its own argument for independence, but the North’s is by far the strongest. They’re larger than the other kingdoms combined, and have a completely different climate and a completely different set of needs than the southern kingdoms.  Not to mention the fact they’ve been the most consistently victimized by the tyrants of King’s Landing.  

This scene is much better about treating Sansa as an intelligent leader who’s aware of the North’s situation.  Again, there’s a lot more I have to say but this post is already getting pretty long, so I’ll move on to Sansa and Tyrion’s reunion.

I’m so torn on how to feel about this particular reunion.  It’s deeply upsetting because it’s a wretched reminder of so many of D&D’s past sins, in particular the whitewashing of Tyrion’s character, and how Sansa’s development was completely undercut in the process.  This scene also shows a stark contrast between show Sansa and book Sansa.  It’s impossible to imagine book Sansa fondly remembering Joffrey clawing at his own throat, unable to breathe – it’s actually essential to her character that she wouldn’t. What leaves me torn is that I still really love show Sansa.  Though D&D’s adaptation will never compare to the beautiful and brilliant character GRRM created in Sansa, I can still root for a badass Sophie Turner fondly remembering the day her serial abuser died.

Now onto my favorite scene of the whole episode, Jon and Arya’s reunion. Both Kit and Maisie were so good in this scene.  I love their genuine happiness and comfort at seeing each other again after all these years apart.  I love the silent mourning of their youth when Arya confesses to Jon that she’s used Needle once or twice.  It was also really nice to see Arya defending Sansa after the absolute tragedy that was Arya and Sansa’s plotline last season.  It was also good to see how clearly hurt Jon is by what he perceives as Sansa’s lack of faith in him.

I don’t have all that much to say when it comes to the section of this episode that takes place outside Winterfell, since there’s not a whole lot of substance in it.  All I really need to say is that I continue to adore Lena Heady, I love the reference to elephants, I’m continually upset by the writers seeming lack of understanding when it comes to consent, and the Theon and Yara plotline is mostly a waste of time, which is incredibly disappointing because it has so much potential.

The next scene is by far the worst of the episode.  I still can’t get over how unbelievably disrespectful to the source material it is to have Jon’s first time riding a dragon be written as comedy.  The only thing worth noting from this sequence is the ominous way Jon keeps his eyes open while making out with Dany, and how foreboding his eye contact with Drogon was.

Though I loved every second of Arya and Gendry’s reunion, it was a mostly superficial scene so I’ll skip passed it.  

Jon and Sansa’s candlelit and tense conversion was content™, but I’m hoping to make a Jonsa focused post about this week’s episode in the next couple of days so all I’ll say is that I loved this scene.

Next, we have Sam’s discovery that his family has been executed, the reveal of R+L=J, and the beginning of the emotional and political fallout these revelations will cause.  I’m so unbelievably disappointed by this sequence.  Jon discovering the truth of his parentage should have easily been the most important scene in the series to date, and the whole thing just fell flat. The main problem with this scene is that it focuses on the political ramifications instead Jon’s emotional response.

In the second to last scene Tormund discovers the dead body of the child Lord Umber surrounded by some pretty horrific centipede arms.  The White Walkers haven’t really been all that threatening since Hardhome, but damn was that shriek unsettling.

The episode closes with Jaime’s arrival at Winterfell, and I couldn’t be happier. Hopefully confronting the man who crippled him will be enough for Bran to not be a robot, at least for one episode.  That combined with the fact that Sansa and Jaime will finally be meeting is more than I can handle.  As much as I was excited for this week’s episode, I can’t begin to express how ready I am for next week.

Overall, I had some issues with D&D’s execution, but I’m mostly excited for where it seems this season is going.

#game of thrones #A Song of Ice and Fire #ASoIaF #got #asoiaf meta #Jaime Lannister #Sansa Stark #jon snow #gotjonsa #jonsa #anti daenerys #anti targaryen #house stark #gothousestark #bran stark #I really hate this show which I love more than life itself

[linsh6]

Speculations for GOT S8

Since I’ve expressed some thoughts about Show!Jonrya, maybe I just outright say all my opinions toward GOT and my S8 speculations.

D&D are really dumb writers

Yes, I won't avoid my “despise” on them so I just outright say it. A lot of people think they just hate Arya so much so they reduce her complex character into a one-dimensional badass assassin and ignore her capacity to become a leader (or queen). But in my opinion, they just purely so suck at script writing that everyone in the show is reduced to a one-dimensional character.

I once held a job as a scriptwriter back in my country (not in English though, and then I quit my job and became a free writer), and I know some important principles and points when it comes to scriptwriting. First of all is the characters’ arcs, D&D apparently have sucked at that so I won’t say much, all of you guys can refer to Grrm’s amazing original and will know how complex character development truly is (He’s so talented and I admire him so much). Why, based on Grrm’s brilliant work, D&D still managed to fuck up the characters’ shapings, I don’t know the reason, just like I suspect why they can even earn their job at HBO. 

Then is the structure and consistency,  I can convince myself that D&D did try their best for the characters but failed, but if the story is not consistent and even contradict itself, it’s deadly. A good scriptwriter (or at least who wants to be) must consider the whole plan from the beginning, otherwise, the story would easily become a total mess.

I believe that D&D do that effort (I believe in their ambition to be remembered and honored as scriptwriters), and we can access that they did plan out some character's development from S1 and talked with Grrm regarding their endings. 

So based on that I would build my personal speculations for S8′s plot.

1. Jonerys’ relationship & Daenerys’ ending.

First of all, I am a little up for the Daenerys’ mad queen theory. In S7 Daenerys literally burn people alive because they refused to bend their knee, which includes Sam’s father and brother. Tyrion felt it not good and tried to stop her, but he failed. 

That behavior is not a really good sign to me, and every character must hold their fate for what they’ve done, remember some actors did refer that there’s a trail for everyone in the final season? If that’s the case, why Daenerys should escape that final trial? I can tell D&D set this up intentionally because Tyrion as a neutral mirror already contradicted Daenerys at that scene.

And I dont’t see Jonerys will end well, their value and ways of lifestyle are too different, and their union in last season was nothing more than a forced push. They only knew each other for several days! How can we count on their relationship to be a great love story? And honestly I don’t see D&D put any effort in developing Jonerys’ relationship, all of their plots are so obvious and cliche, if they really are the final endgame D&D certainly could come up something better & more touching. 

I do think that Jonerys would become enemies in the end. Daenerys has no way back but become a queen to rule the seven kingdoms, otherwise all the efforts along her way to come to now would mean nothing, where there’s no better description than Grrm’s original line “If I look back, I am lost” ( In the books I sympathize for Daenerys, but she’s so flat on the show...)

2. Sansa will die

Honestly, I think Sansa will die halfway both in the show and in the books, she’s not important enough to make it to the finale episode. Actually she’s not even important enough bothering me to talk about, but D&D certainly did show some “fondness” to this character that made us hard to ignore.

Of course, they really “like” her, even to add a rape plot to force her to “grow” and made her first reunite with Jon. But that’s it, they can’t do more. They nearly made her become the top tier characters, but only nearly. Despite of their “fondness” of Sansa, D&D still didn’t make the northern lords fight against Boltons for Sansa like they did for Arya in the books, neither Jon. And D&D shaped her as an ambitious politician who would rather take place of Jon and almost kill her sister, which was verified by the script remark. (And Jonsa is a crackship both in the show and the books, there’s no other way around.)

Sansa still needs to fulfill her final character arc with meeting Cersei at King’s Landing,  so her death may happen at episode 4 or 5 I guess.

3. Arya’s role in the battle of dawn

I surely believe Arya will play an important role in the battle of dawn, even decisive, first point is her valyrian dagger, and second is Nymeria. 

In Isaac’s interview, he did say bran offers Arya the valyrian dragger because he senses there’s gonna be some importance to it. So maybe we can guess Arya would use this dagger in some vital fighting moment like fighting the Night King.

Then is Nymeria, I know people are all upset about the scene in S7, but it must mean for something, otherwise that would be a total waste of time for showing that Nymeria becomes a queen of a wolf pack (and the money too). Remember Ghost and Nymeria are the only Stark’s direwolf left. I believe Nymeria’s wolf pack would show up in the critical moment during the fighting. 

4. Arya’s parallel to Lyanna

I guess that in S8 there may be a scene directly compare Arya to Lyanna. Remember GOT’s team did make some efforts to choose an actress who resembles Maisie to play Lyanna. And Maisie also once said "I remember having a little braid in my hair and the hair and make-up team would be like, you cannot leave with that braid in your hair, we have to take it out. Because people will read into it and find some spoilers with just a braid." 

If Arya has a scene with a braid and be referred to Lyanna, then it must have a strong impact to Jon, because all these years he always wondered about his mother, now finally gonna see a live Lyanna 2.0 before his eyes.

5. Jonrya’s relationship development

According to actors’ interviews recently, that would be a fair guess that Jonrya won’t go well at the beginning, like a forthright hug as they do in S1E2. But I don’t view it as a bad thing, on the opposite I believe a real important relationship would need a proper and elaborate-designed development (never like Jonerys’ one),  that arc would be more moving and impressing.

If Jon & Arya develop their relationship through the final season, like afraid to face each other at the first but then realize they will still love each other no matter what, then I have every reason to believe Jonrya is the endgame. 

And if they do end up romantically (that’s my hope), I guess would be under that stressful circumstance and they still and only have each other (Sansa will die, Bran is emotionless, Jon and Daenerys may turn against each other halfway). Only they would love the other unconditionally, what else does it need for them to go further?

Final word

To close this post, I just want to express my love and respect for the show. Not for D&D of course, they suck at those characters and mess the story after S5. But for Grrm’s brilliant original base and the actors’ amazing performances, including those of Lena, Peter, Carice, Alfie, Aiden & so many other great ones, and finally my beloved Maisie (Not including Kit and Emilia, especially Emilia, they’re lovely though). 

In my view, GOT is one of the greatest show in the world (thanks to Grrm’s original work of course not D&D’s), and I may rewatch and appreciate it every now and then for my later years. 

D&D did a rather good job at least for the first 4 seasons, if they really make an “unexpected” ending as every actor put it and want to impress the audience & to be remembered well, I do hope they could end it well, just like what they did with the beginning.

If that so, I may still not forgive what they did in S5 but would not hate them anymore probably😊.

#jonrya #jon x arya #got8 #got #arya stark

[got-dances-with-dragons]

In the End It Appears that D & D Had Little Understanding of What Drew So Many Fans to the GOT Characters and Story

David Benioff and D.B. Weiss demonstrated so far this season that they had little idea what drew so many of the show’s fans to the GOT characters and story.

FANS BECOME INVESTED IN UNDERDOGS

First of all, D & D don’t seem to fully appreciate the human tendency to root for the underdog. For many fans Daenerys was that underdog who overcame countless obstacles to try to see her vision of justice and equality materialize.

So it was very exciting for the audience to see Dany finally come to Westeros and appear to be ready to take her throne.

Jon Snow was also the underdog who was viewed as a lowly “bastard” but whom we all knew was a true prince of a man. 

So it was thrilling for the audience to have their suspicions that Jon was indeed Aegon Targaryen affirmed.

And it was a dream come true for countless fans when Daenerys and Jon fell in love. The hope for many was that they would sit the Iron Throne together as King and Queen.

But D & D dashed all those hopes that so many fans had for these two characters in the last couple of episodes.

SO MUCH FOR PROPHECY

D & D also apparently don’t understand how fascinated fans actually were in trying to figure out the various prophecies. Who were the three heads of the dragon? Who was The Prince or Princess That Was Promised? Who was Azor Ahai reborn? Who was the “valonqar” who would choke Cersei to death? 

In retrospect, it now appears that none of the prophecies really mattered. 

Arya didn’t really fit with any of the prophecies and yet she was the one who delivered the blow that killed the Night King and ended the advance of the darkness.

Dany’s descent into vengeful madness suggests she was never the Princess That Was Promised or Azor Ahai reborn. 

Maybe Jon is Azor Ahai and the Prince but in the last episode he was completely ineffective in curbing Dany’s worst instincts. I suppose he is being set up to be the one who  ends the “darkness” that has become Dany but it also seems like even if he is the one who does so (and it isn’t Arya again) that his honor after killing the woman he loves won’t allow him to take the Iron Throne and to be the great ruler that he could be. I’m fully expecting him to take the black in penance and return to what remains of the Wall in the North.

Furthermore, it turns out that neither Tyrion nor Jamie (the “valonqars”)  choked their big sister Cersei to death (although they were both unwittingly instrumental in getting her to the depths of the Red Keep where she was eventually crushed to death by falling debris).

[See more under the cut.]

SO MUCH FOR THE “LOVE” STORIES

Yes, there was a lot of investment in fans in Jon and Dany finding love together. Many fans were happy when they finally came together. But now a happy ending for them has been dashed.  (And for those fans rooting for Jon and Sansa, I sincerely doubt they will get together. I still believe that Jon will take the black again in the end--or die, but no happy endings for him. I hope I am wrong about this but given how the last few episodes went, I’m afraid to hope that Jon’s story has a happier ending.)

And then there was Jamie and Brienne. It seems that D & D didn’t understand how invested certain fans were in Jamie’s reform and apparent love for Brienne coming to fruition. They threw the fans a few crumbs by allowing Jamie and Brienne to drunkenly consummate their love. But after Jamie learned that Cersei was in danger, he decided to return to her. We had to watch Brienne reduce herself to begging Jamie to stay. But Jamie couldn’t even soften the blow with words of how much he had cherished Brienne. Instead, he told Brienne that he was just as “hateful” as Cersei. With those words the hoped for happy ending of Jamie and Brienne vanished. 

D & D DIDN’T EVEN SEEM TO UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF THE DIREWOLVES TO FANS!

I knew we were in trouble when Jon didn’t bid Ghost the sort of farewell that he deserved. If D & D didn’t understand the importance to fans of the bonding of the Stark children and their direwolves, it was clear they were not going to “get” a lot of the importance of other elements of the story for fans.

WAY TO RUIN THE FASCINATION WITH DRAGONS

Many fans also became fascinated with the dragons having watched them grow from babies who were devoted to their “mother” to combatants against oppressive slavers and evil White Walkers. 

We cried when Viserion and Rhaegal were killed. 

But then Dany turned her favorite dragon, Drogon, into an instrument of terror to thousands of innocent people in King’s Landing. 

Just the other day I did a positive POST about the dragons. It was way too late to make this post but I had a feeling that it would be impossible to do so after episode 805, so I took the time to make a tribute to them, and to the more positive aspects of Dany as the “Mother of Dragons.” 

It saddens me now to think of how Dany used Drogon to kill so many innocents. For the first time I’m kind of glad Rhaegal and Viserion didn’t survive because Dany would have used them in the service of revenge as well.

MAYBE THE LAST EPISODE WILL HAVE SOME REDEEMING VALUE BUT I’M NOT HOLDING MY BREATH

I understand the show runners have filmed different endings for the last episode. I hope D & D take into account just how unhappy most fans have been with the show’s direction this season and will select the best possible ending out of those that were filmed--so that fans will have some small satisfaction with how the series ends.

But then again, I don’t know if D & D even understand what the “best possible ending” might be.  

#game of thrones #season 8 #prophecies #david benioff #db weiss #my commentary

[fedonciadale]

Hi Fedon! I’ve been following the Jonsa community for a while now, and obviously I’ve experienced the nastiness and absurdity of the Dany and Arya stans. But where did they get the idea that we (as in Jonsa and/or Sansa stans) bully and oppress them? I mean, from what I’ve seen it’s exactly the opposite. Are there really Jonsas or Sansa stans that “hate every woman who isn’t traditionally feminine”? That don’t want Arya to grow up beautiful because then she would “threaten Sansa’s beauty”? Did some of us really have racial tendencies towards the Dany fandom? And misinterpret Sansa’s character? I mean, actually misinterpret it, not the “misinterpretation” as they see it, which is recognizing her importance in the narrative and loving it when she finally breaks free from her abusers and can speak her mind without fear of the consequences. I’ve read such wild takes, and I wonder where it all started. I mean, are they making that shit up? Are they taking bits from metas out of context? I’m asking because never, in my experience, I’ve found a single Jonsa saying the things they claim we say. I’m genuinely confused, and wonder if there are really some people who say those things and I’ve missed it. My experience in this fandom has been absolutely lovely, and this is honestly one of the best I’ve ever been in. I’m sure that there’s a “black sheep” everywhere, but I’ve never witnessed anything remotely similar to what Dany/Arya stans claim we say. Condoning slavery? Xenophobic? Patriarchal? Where???

Hi there!

I honestly can’t say that I’ve seen any of this either, but that does not necessarily mean that it is not there. I think there are several aspects as to why A and D stans claim this.

a) Ship wars can be pretty nasty and since A and D stans don’t accept the show ending as canon, there won’t be a solution any time soon. So there is no way how this can die down (unless GRRM spills his ending).

b) Jonsa or even only the idea that Sansa is one of the main characters has fucked up so many theories that were around for decades and people who have believed these ideas have reacted rather nasty to the idea of Jonsa. Hence the vitriol.

c) By now the Jonsa fandom (and to a lesser extent the Sansa fans) are the scapegoats of the fandom. Even character stans or ship stans who have absolutely no interaction with us react the same: When in doubt blame a Jonsa. It’s a knee jerk reaction. You can sure count on getting notes if you claim you’ve seen something on a Jonsa blog. Or just cut out the sentences that you can make fun off. And nobody is going to check.

d) It has become common (or maybe it always was) to not be very picky about how fandom questions are discussed. You could of course try to differentiate, but usually people do not want to do it. It makes things too complex, too difficult and at the end of the day you might have to admit that on the other side of the screen is a real person and not some hateful ‘enemy’. For this reason discourse is reduced to some ready to go insults. The best example for this is the following thought chain: Dany fights against slavery - This person is anti-Dany - Therefore they are condoning slavery. There are several logical fallacies there: The first is obviously that Dany does not really fight slavery (she wants an army) - The second is that criticizing Dany’s actions does not necessarily mean you are anti - The third is that you even can dislike a character and that still doesn’t mean that you are against Dany’s goals (if the abolition of slavery were her goal, but I digress). People take a short-cut, jump to conclusions and decide that this is how Jonsas think. It’s not that Jonsas think that it’s that they take our opinion and extrapolate what this opinion might mean and they do it in such a way that they can blame us of holding opinions that are absolutely despicable.

You can look at that anon that discussed with me about the fact that me being a fan of Sansa means that I support partriarchy, that Sansa supports patriarchy. You can actually see with every ask how they jumped to conclusions.

I want to stress that a) I don’t think all A and D stans (there are many I’ve never seen) do that and b) I actually think that they don’t necessarily do that by intention. It’s just the tendency of ‘othering’ Jonsas and that makes it easy to jump to conclusion and end somewhere that makes the Jonsas look as bad as possible.

TLDR: What they see on Jonsa blogs: “I really dislike Dany”

What they make of it: “Look at that despicable person who condones slavery.”

What they see: “I don’t think Dany has a valid claim to rule the North”

What they make of it: “Dany was born outside of Westeros. If they don’t want her as a ruler they must be xenophic.”

What they see: “Sansa is an important character that is actually feminine.”

What they make of it: “They want feminine, gender conforming women to win. They must be pro-patriarchy.”

So, I just try to stay away from them. And I agree, the Jonsa fandom and Sansa fans are usually a nice place!

Thanks for the ask!

#anon ask #Jonsa #Sansa Stark #Sansa Stark defence squad #Why is Jonsa hated? #Some misconceptions of the antis

[tachipaws]

so uhhhhh

I watched the Game of Thrones finale just a little bit ago

and I have some thoughts

spoilers under the cut.

Firstly, seeing Tyrion find Jaime and Cersei together had me almost burst into tears. As soon as he saw Jaime’s golden hand I kinda thought, oh this is a big gag, the hand will be there with Cersei and Jaime will come sidling out from somewhere, he lived thank god. But no. Jaime died in the arms of a woman he loved, taking all these years of beautiful character development with him. And I don’t say this solely as a Braime fan. I LOVED Jaime’s character. He always tried to do the right thing, and even when he was tempted by Cersei, even when he gave in, he still came back and tried to do what he thought was best. He saved thousands of lives when he killed the Mad King, and he suffered in silence for it. He stood with Brienne and with the Starks in the Battle of Winterfell, even when his own queen refused to send her help. He tried to save Cersei from certain death, and their child, tried to get her to leave and live with him in obscurity, because they would be safe and happy and their child would grow and live. But no. They die, and all it serves is to give Dany her win and Tyrion some last-minute angst. But god, seeing him crouch over his beloved brother and sister, I could feel that he felt responsible for their deaths, and it was heart wrenching to watch.

And then Dany. Oh, beautiful Dany. I’ve loved her character from the start, and all through her arc, even when she made choices that weren’t for the best, even when they put her on a White Savior complex, even when it became clear the writers had lied and were going to make her turn out just like her father. I knew she’d die this episode, but it didn’t make watching it any easier. I had so much hope watching through the series that Dany would be the one to dethrone the Lannisters, give the people a kind and just ruler, and be everything she set out to be. For her to lose so much, from her family to her friends, and then die with nothing as well, broke my heart and even as I sit here typing I have to hold back tears. I loved Danaerys’ character so much, and I’m disgusted that she was turned into a Mad Queen. The writers don’t know jack shit about character development and it really shows with her. She should have grown and realized that maybe she wasn’t best suited for a throne, at least not the one in Westeros, and either become an adviser or return to Mereen when all was said and done. I’m so glad Drogon destroyed the Iron Throne, because it’s nothing but a death sentence anyway. Fuck that throne and fuck the writers for making it so unnecessarily important. Danaerys Targaryan was meant to be different, was meant to break the wheel. But in the end, she was crushed by it like her father and so many others before her. The Targaryans die out after a legacy of incest, mental illness, fear, and death. A complete waste of an incredible character played by an amazingly dedicated actress.

Bran being named King of Westeros was something I knew was coming bc I’d asked for the spoiler, but it was still kind of a surprise in an “are they REALLY gonna do it” kind of way. I really fucking hate that his title is Bran the Broken, as if that’s the only B word that can possibly describe a man who defied death and became the Three-Eyed Raven, but again these writers are fuckin terrible so I guess that’s what we get. I didn’t like how Sam’s idea to have the people choose a ruler was sneered at so harshly. It just shows that everyone there enjoys having all the power, which goes against the characterization of at least half of them. But I guess all the upper-class have to be assholes at least a little, huh.  I don’t know if I do or don’t like Bran being the king, but I did like how it was brought up. He is the living history of the realm as Tyrion said, and now he will live on to be its future as well. For a kid who was tossed out of a window after seeing the former queen having sex with her brother, I’d say that’s a pretty good decent glow up of sorts. I almost wish there would be another season, if only to see how Westeros fairs under Bran’s rule with Tyrion at his side. I can only hope everyone lives to see the peace they finally deserve, after suffering so much under the rule of families hungry for fame and riches and titles.

Arya leaving is the one thing I’m just, really fucking bothered by. I don’t recall anywhere her having a desire to travel and see new parts of the world. When she left Westeros she did so because it was life or death. She came home to be with her family. And now she’s leaving them for god knows how long to go god knows where. I can’t believe after all the chaos and death these kids have faced and grown up around, she wouldn’t want to stay in Winterfell to be with Jon and Sansa. I just don’t like it. Arya is one of my top favorite characters and watching her grow from a stubborn child into a ruthless assassin was amazing, but somehow her ending off as an explorer just doesn’t feel quite right.

Jon being sentenced to live out his days in the Watch is the cruelest joke in this whole fucking show. Right back where he started, the bastard son of Ned stark, forced to live out his days in the cold and snow at Castle Black, never to have any family or land of his own. After all the attempts to hype up the R+L=J shit, which so many people figured out way too easily, after uncovering the mystery of his real lineage and discovering he’s one of the only two Targaryans left in existence, after all the struggle within himself of not wanting to take the throne from Dany even though he had a legitimate claim and her Mad Queen story line made her unfit to rule (and after having to listen to Varys insist only men can rule properly, tbh I’m not sad he died, I never liked him and he got what he deserved for that shit), he ends right back where he started. Jon was my first favorite character, and I always hurt for him, how he was raised with the Stark children as Ned’s bastard, how much Catelynn seemed like she wanted to love him like her own but just couldn’t, how much it must have hurt him knowing he was hurting her and her just by existing. I would have loved to see Cat find out the truth and their relationship become something different, as he was the son of her husband’s beloved sister and she would have embraced him with open arms and a thousand apologies. She just didn’t know any different, and by the time Jon knew, it was all too late. He’s lost almost all the family he’s ever known, and all the real family he ever had. His whole character arc amounted to nothing. NOTHING. My only hope is that he just goes off north with Ghost, Tormund, and the wildlings, because who’s gonna bother to make sure? Aegon Targaryan will have never existed.

AT LEAST, he finally gave Ghost the fucking pats that direwolf deserved. I was actually really happy to see Ghost and Tormund again, and even happier to see Jon acknowledge Ghost, who’d been by his side from the very start. I’m at least glad knowing they’ll still be together in the true north.

And now the grand finale, the one thing I was completely satisfied with.  Sansa Stark The Queen in the North Seeing the crown placed upon her head, seeing her take her rightful place, and hearing her men shout “THE QUEEN IN THE NORTH” made me feel swollen with pride. Sansa has been through hell and back. She watched her father die at the command of a king who tormented her, she was raped by another man who executed her youngest brother, she lost her mother and her oldest brother to a supposed ally, and spent so many seasons a hostage or a tool for other people. But she fought, and she grew, and she became shrewd and cunning at the table. Sansa calculated every step she made and it saw her to ascend the throne, and take her rightful place as the oldest Stark heir. She secured her people’s land and ensured their safety. I can only imagine how proud Ned, Catelynn, Robb, and Rickon would be if they could see Sansa now. No longer is she the scared, air-headed little girl who just wants to marry a noble man and live life in the luxury she’s always known. She’s a war veteran, a general, a wolf through and through.

I started watching Game of Thrones in season 5 I believe, with a group of friends in a stream. I knew about the show but had just never bothered to sit and watch it. After seasons 6 ended, I figured I may as well start at the beginning and have a better understanding of what’s going to happen in the last 2 seasons. I spent about three or four weeks slowly marathoning it around my oldest daughter’s schedule (she’s only six and there’s no way she’s watching it any time soon lmao) and I couldn’t help but fall in love with the characters, the world itself, and the stories being played out. I have to say though, along with so many others, I’m utterly disappointed at the ending, and season 8 as a whole. It felt unrefined, and rushed, and there was no sense that anything meaningful happened in the end. When I saw the writers so brashly say that story lines were for 8th grade books, I realized just how little they care about actually writing, and this season truly reflects that. The deaths were for shock value more than anything else, and the major conflicts were solved so easily it felt as if all the buildup for them had been for something else entirely. I don’t regret watching Game of Thrones by any means, but I do feel sad for Martin that his beautiful complex stories full of beautiful complex characters, were reduced to nothing more than a circle story. All this talk of breaking the wheel, and yet it just rolled right back around to see the unspoken main character end right where he began. Because what’s the point of a story when there’s CGI dragons and big fight scenes?

#paws.txt #game of thrones #game of thrones finale #got spoilers #got review