#anti jonsa stans

[pixiecactus]

i don't ship jonrya (gendrya it's the one for me tbh) but i swear it bothers me so much that people in this fandom like to discard jonrya like something absurd, that really has no foundation in the books (i can only think of one jon's ships that is like this and it's not jonrya let me tell you) when we have time and time again in both of arya and jon's chapters actually shown how they are so devoted to eachother, making one of the strongest bonds in the entire series, even if you don't take the og outline (jonrya endgame) in consideration:

in agot:

"And Arya…he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had…yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him."

and:

"She would have given anything if Jon had been here to call her “little sister” and muss her hair."

in acok:

"When at last she slept, she dreamed of home. The kingsroad wound its way past Winterfell on its way to the Wall, and Yoren had promised he’d leave her there with no one any wiser about who she’d been. She yearned to see her mother again, and Robb and Bran and Rickon . . . but it was Jon Snow she thought of most. She wished somehow they could come to the Wall before Winterfell, so Jon might muss up her hair and call her “little sister.” She’d tell him, “I missed you,” and he’d say it too at the very same moment, the way they always used to say things together. She would have liked that. She would have liked that better than anything."

and:

"As he rode, Jon peeled off his glove to air his burned fingers. Ugly things. He remembered suddenly how he used to muss Arya’s hair. His little stick of a sister. He wondered how she was faring. It made him a little sad to think that he might never muss her hair again. He began to flex his hand, opening and closing the fingers. If he let his sword hand stiffen and grow clumsy, it well might be the end of him, he knew. A man needed his sword beyond the Wall."

their current companions remind them of eachother:

“NO!” Arya and Gendry both said, at the exact same instant. Hot Pie quailed a little. Arya gave Gendry a sideways look. He said it with me, like Jon used to do, back in Winterfell. She missed Jon Snow the most of all her brothers.

and romantic interests too:

Ygritte trotted beside Jon as he slowed his garron to a walk. She claimed to be three years older than him, though she stood half a foot shorter; however old she might be, the girl was a tough little thing. Stonesnake had called her a “spearwife” when they’d captured her in the Skirling Pass. She wasn’t wed and her weapon of choice was a short curved bow of horn and weirwood, but “spearwife” fit her all the same. She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs and skins she wore.

and i want to end with one of my favourite arya's quotes:

“I know where we could go,” Arya said. She still had one brother left. Jon will want me, even if no one else does. He’ll call me “little sister” and muss my hair. It was a long way, though, and she didn’t think she could get there by herself. She hadn’t even been able to reach Riverrun. “We could go to the Wall.”

so... no, the idea of jon x arya is not strange at all actually

#there's a lot of more moments in the books but i'm lazy sorry #as a gendrya shipper if jonrya it's actually the books endgame i'm going to be so happy for them #and as a gendrya shipper somedays i can´t help to think that jonrya has to much potential for gendrya to actually happen (one of my fears) #but in the end jonrya are eachothers person (soulmates if you will) #and term that can be romantic or platonic #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #house stark #arya stark #jon snow #gendry #jonrya #ygritte #anti sansa stans #anti jonsa stans #anti jonsa #even typing that anti tag makes me want to vomit #like jon(🙂) and here comes the vomit sa(🤮)

[daenerystargaryen06]

I have seen posts about Daenerys antis/Sansa stans discussing and discounting this exact quote from one of Daenerys' chapters in ASOIAF:

"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . ." -A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

I have seen posts of these people saying the blue flower imagery somehow correlates to Sansa. Or some other discount of saying it doesn't relate to Jon, or that somehow the sweetness of the blue flower imagery will somehow lead to Jon going against/killing Daenerys...? I honestly have no idea how that correlates, but anyway...

Let's begin tearing this apart.

The first discussion we will be covering, is a Sansa stan post I saw saying the blue flower correlated to Sansa.. somehow. We have many indications as to how that doesn't fit/work at all.

Daenerys sees the blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice. Leading readers to infer/know she is seeing the Wall at this moment. Sansa is in the Vale presently, not at the Wall, and I doubt she will ever go to the Wall with how her book arc is playing out.

Based on my post here, Jon is the son of Lyanna Stark. Both are associated/represented by blue flower imagery.

Jon is the blue flower Daenerys sees growing from the wall of ice. He is currently a member of the Night's Watch, his mother is Lyanna, and both Jon and Lyanna have blue flower representation and correlated imagery to such. He is associated with blue and winter. He is the one Daenerys is seeing in that moment, represented by the blue flower.

Another part of this is the 'sweetness' the blue flower emits. Daenerys actually likes sweetness, and sweet things.

"There was food and water here to sustain them, and enough grass for the horses to regain their strength. How pleasant it would be to wake every day in the same place, to linger among shady gardens, eat figs, and drink cool water, as much as she might desire." -A Clash of Kings - Daenerys I

"With so many still waiting on her pleasure, she did not stop to eat. Instead she dispatched Jhiqui to the kitchens for a platter of flatbread, olives, figs, and cheese. She nibbled whilst she listened, and sipped from a cup of watered wine. The figs were fine, the olives even finer, but the wine left a tart metallic aftertaste in her mouth." -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys I

"Her cooks had prepared them a magnificent meal of honeyed lamb, fragrant with crushed mint and served with the small green figs she liked so much. Two of Dany's favorite hostages served the food and kept the cups filled—a doe-eyed little girl called Qezza and a skinny boy named Grazhar." -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IV

"Dany sat amongst the rumpled bedclothes with her arms about her knees, so forlorn that she did not hear when Missandei came creeping in with bread and milk and figs. "Your Grace? Are you unwell? In the black of night this one heard you scream." -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII

"That explains the way Belwas is sweating," Dany said. "I believe I will content myself with figs and dates." -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IX

"I've brought you a peach," Ser Jorah said, kneeling. It was so small she could almost hide it in her palm, and overripe too, but when she took the first bite, the flesh was so sweet she almost cried. She ate it slowly, savoring every mouthful, while Ser Jorah told her of the tree it had been plucked from, in a garden near the western wall." -A Clash of Kings - Daenerys I

As seen by the quotes above, Daenerys enjoys eating sweet fruits. She likes sweetness. The blue flower emitting sweetness, though not said in her chapter, likely pleased her. This is not an imagery set against Daenerys, but rather a hint towards Jon likely being someone she will like and find pleasant once they meet. We have other hints towards Jon and Daenerys becoming eventual allies/lovers over enemies as provided by the quotes from me here.

Let's dig into this further, shall we?

I've seen quite a few Jonsa/Sansa stans using this quote and many others to say Jon will fall in love with Sansa. But there is one thing Jon likes, and it does not relate to Sansa in any way, shape, or form:

"Why not? thought Jon. They are all convinced she is a princess. Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her. "I must inform the queen of this agreement," he said. "You are welcome to come meet her, if you can find it in yourself to bend a knee." It would never do to offend Her Grace before he even opened his mouth." -A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

"Lonely and lovely and lethal, Jon Snow reflected, and I might have had her. Her, and Winterfell, and my lord father's name. Instead he had chosen a black cloak and a wall of ice. Instead he had chosen honor. A bastard's sort of honor." -A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

"A woman of the free folk." How could he explain Ygritte to them? She's warm and smart and funny and she can kiss a man or slit his throat." -A Storm of Swords - Jon VI

Jon has a preference towards women who are strong, determined, and have a warrior-like personality. His interests fall into people such as Ygritte, Val, Arya, and Daenerys. He's always thinking of Arya, and when he had a relationship with Ygritte, he compared her to Arya the most. His preference does not fall in line with the sort of person Sansa is and how she carries herself/acts.

Jon is also associated with moon imagery:

"The white wolf raced through a black wood, beneath a pale cliff as tall as the sky. The moon ran with him, slipping through a tangle of bare branches overhead, across the starry sky." -A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

"Snow," the moon murmured. The wolf made no answer. Snow crunched beneath his paws. The wind sighed through the trees." -A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

"Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall." Jon glanced over his shoulder. The shadow was there, just as she had said, etched in moonlight against the Wall. A girl in grey on a dying horse, he thought. Coming here, to you. Arya. He turned back to the red priestess. Jon could feel her warmth. She has power." -A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

Who is also associated with moon imagery? Daenerys.

"A trader from Qarth once told me that dragons came from the moon," blond Doreah said as she warmed a towel over the fire. Jhiqui and Irri were of an age with Dany, Dothraki girls taken as slaves when Drogo destroyed their father's khalasar. Doreah was older, almost twenty. Magister Illyrio had found her in a pleasure house in Lys." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

"Khal Drogo looked down at her. His face was a copper mask, yet under the long black mustache, drooping beneath the weight of its gold rings, she thought she glimpsed the shadow of a smile. "Is good name, Dan Ares wife, moon of my life," he said." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

"Memories walked with her. Clouds seen from above. Horses small as ants thundering through the grass. A silver moon, almost close enough to touch. Rivers running bright and blue below, glimmering in the sun. Will I ever see such sights again? On Drogon's back she felt whole. Up in the sky the woes of this world could not touch her. How could she abandon that?" -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X

Now, if we really want to go into things and go as crazy as Jonsa stans/Daenerys antis do with contorting text and making it their ship agenda... I could do the same. Mainly with Jon loving Ygritte, who is 'kissed by fire', and that fire relating imagery to Daenerys.

"The wildlings seemed to think Ygritte a great beauty because of her hair; red hair was rare among the free folk, and those who had it were said to be kissed by fire, which was supposed to be lucky." -A Storm of Swords - Jon II

"Jon was coming to know them despite himself: gaunt, quiet Errok and gregarious Grigg the Goat, the boys Quort and Bodger, Hempen Dan the ropemaker. The worst of the lot was Del, a horsefaced youth near Jon's own age, who would talk dreamily of this wildling girl he meant to steal. "She's lucky, like your Ygritte. She's kissed by fire." -A Storm of Swords - Jon V

"You'll see a hundred castles," he promised her. "The battle's done. Maester Aemon will see to you." He touched her hair. "You're kissed by fire, remember? Lucky. It will take more than an arrow to kill you. Aemon will draw it out and patch you up, and we'll get you some milk of the poppy for the pain." -A Storm of Swords - Jon VII

And of course, we all know Daenerys' association with fire:

"The water was scalding hot, but Daenerys did not flinch or cry out. She liked the heat. It made her feel clean. Besides, her brother had often told her that it was never too hot for a Targaryen. "Ours is the house of the dragon," he would say. "The fire is in our blood." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

"There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

"He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

"After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"The heat beat at the air with great red wings, driving the Dothraki back, driving off even Mormont, but Dany stood her ground. She was the blood of the dragon, and the fire was in her." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

"No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don't you see? Don't you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

Even alike to Daenerys, part of the Night's Watch vows Jon took have an association to fire as well:

"Hear my words, and bear witness to my vow," they recited, their voices filling the twilit grove. "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come." -A Game of Thrones - Jon VI

Or we could even associate some of Val to Daenerys as well:

"When they emerged north of the Wall, through a thick door made of freshly hewn green wood, the wildling princess paused for a moment to gaze out across the snow-covered field where King Stannis had won his battle. Beyond, the haunted forest waited, dark and silent. The light of the half-moon turned Val's honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath. "The air tastes sweet." -A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

"When she was clean, the slaves helped her from the water and toweled her dry. The girl brushed her hair until it shone like molten silver, while the old woman anointed her with the spiceflower perfume of the Dothraki plains, a dab on each wrist, behind her ears, on the tips of her breasts, and one last one, cool on her lips, down there between her legs." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

"And Val's no man," white-bearded Tormund snorted. "You ought to have noticed that by now, lad." -A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"I am no man," she whispered, "so you may lean on me." Drogo put a huge hand on her shoulder. She took some of his weight as they walked toward the great mud temple." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VII

"Perhaps Jon had ridden with the free folk too long; he could not help but laugh. "Your Grace," he said, "captive or no, if you think you can just give Val to me, I fear you have a deal to learn about wildling women. Whoever weds her had best be prepared to climb in her tower window and carry her off at swordpoint . . ." -A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

"How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly. Even if her captain was mad enough to attempt it, the Brazen Beasts would cut him down before he got within a hundred yards of her." -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII

"Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones." -A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

"Viserys began to scream the high, wordless scream of the coward facing death. He kicked and twisted, whimpered like a dog and wept like a child, but the Dothraki held him tight between them. Ser Jorah had made his way to Dany's side. He put a hand on her shoulder. "Turn away, my princess, I beg you.".. "No." She folded her arms across the swell of her belly, protectively." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

 "Val stood on the tower roof, gazing up at the Wall. Stannis kept her closely penned in rooms above his own, but he did allow her to walk the battlements for exercise. She looks lonely, Jon thought. Lonely, and lovely. Ygritte had been pretty in her own way, with her red hair kissed by fire, but it was her smile that made her face come alive. Val did not need to smile; she would have turned men's heads in any court in the wide world." -A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

"Up here in her garden Dany sometimes felt like a god, living atop the highest mountain in the world. Do all gods feel so lonely? Some must, surely." -A Storm of Swords - Daenerys VI

"That gave the captain pause. "I am no stranger to Meereen. I could find the city again, aye … but why? There are no slaves to be had in Meereen, no profit to be found there. The silver queen has put an end to that. She has even closed the fighting pits, so a poor sailor cannot even amuse himself as he waits to fill his holds. Tell me, my Westerosi friend, what is there in Meereen that you should want to go there?" The most beautiful woman in the world, thought Quentyn. My bride-to-be, if the gods are good. Sometimes at night he lay awake imagining her face and form, and wondering why such a woman would ever want to marry him, of all the princes in the world. I am Dorne, he told himself. She will want Dorne." -A Dance with Dragons - The Merchant's Man

Not only does Daenerys and Val share similar qualities, Daenerys and Arya also share similarities and parallels. Jon is closest to Arya. She is the one he thinks about the most, and loves. He compares others to Arya. He thinks of her often. Arya is the one he considers 'his heart.'

"Arya drew back from him. "He killed the slave?" That did not sound right. "He should have killed the masters!" -A Feast for Crows - Arya II

"Unsullied!" Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. "Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see." She raised the harpy's fingers in the air . . . and then she flung the scourge aside. "Freedom!" she sang out. "Dracarys! Dracarys!".. "Dracarys!" they shouted back, the sweetest word she'd ever heard. "Dracarys! Dracarys!" And all around them slavers ran and sobbed and begged and died, and the dusty air was filled with spears and fire." -A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

"The wolf blood." Arya remembered now. "I'll be as strong as Robb. I said I would." She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside. I am a direwolf, and done with wooden teeth. -A Clash of Kings - Arya X

"I am blood of the dragon, she told herself. I am Daenerys Stormborn, Princess of Dragonstone, of the blood and seed of Aegon the Conqueror." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys II

"She must have slept, though she never remembered closing her eyes. She dreamed a wolf was howling, and the sound was so terrible that it woke her at once. Arya sat up on her pallet with her heart thumping. "Hot Pie, wake up." She scrambled to her feet. "Woth, Gendry, didn't you hear?" She pulled on a boot." -A Clash of Kings - Arya IV

"Yet that night she dreamt of one. Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. "You woke the dragon," he screamed as he kicked her. "You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon." Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found hers, she woke, shaking and covered with a fine sheen of sweat. She had never been so afraid..." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys II

"Yes, Arya thought. Yes, it's you who ought to run, you and Lord Tywin and the Mountain and Ser Addam and Ser Amory and stupid Ser Lyonel whoever he is, all of you better run or my brother will kill you, he's a Stark, he's more wolf than man, and so am I." -A Clash of Kings - Arya VIII

"Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros? I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I." -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

"She was no little girl in the dream; she was a wolf, huge and powerful, and when she emerged from beneath the trees in front of them and bared her teeth in a low rumbling growl, she could smell the rank stench of fear from horse and man alike." -A Storm of Swords - Arya I

"Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew. "… wake the dragon …" -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

Arya and Daenerys share the same imagery and have various parallels. Both are strong, determined, beautiful, protective, and fall into their blood/house symbolism as a source of strength for themselves. It's not too far to say that Dany will remind Jon of Arya as well when they meet, and will fall for her due to her personality and traits.

This isn't to diss on Sansa's book character or hate on her. But it is the truth that Jon wouldn't find her appealing as a lover and likely would never fall for her. Sansa's strengths are very much different compared to the ideals/attributes that Jon finds/would find attractive in women such as Ygritte, Val, Arya, and Daenerys.

"My skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel. Her hands moved stiffly, awkwardly, as if they had never let down her hair before. For a moment she wished Shae was there, to help her with the net." -A Storm of Swords - Sansa V

"Joffrey frowned. Sansa felt that she ought to say something. What was it that Septa Mordane used to tell her? A lady's armor is courtesy, that was it. She donned her armor and said, "I'm sorry my lady mother took you captive, my lord." -A Clash of Kings - Sansa I

"Sansa felt dizzy; one instant her head was full of dreams of Loras, and the next they had all been snatched away. Willas? Willas? "I," she said stupidly. Courtesy is a lady's armor. You must not offend them, be careful what you say. "I do not know Ser Willas. I have never had the pleasure, my lady. Is he . . . is he as great a knight as his brothers?" -A Storm of Swords - Sansa I

Sansa's strengths lie in her using courtesy, manners, and pretense as a woman of noble blood to endure her struggles and get through the abuse she had suffered within King's Landing. Within the Vale, her strength lies in her ability to observe, act as Alayne Stone, and maneuver into seducing Harrold Hardyng whilst partaking in the slow poisoning of her younger cousin.

Meanwhile, Daenerys and Arya, along with Val, are a bit more physical in their endeavors:

"There is a reason. A dragon is no slave." And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver's face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy's fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. "Drogon," she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. "Dracarys." -A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

"She hit him. Hard, right between his little eyes. Screaming, Biter reeled back, and then threw all his weight against his chains. The links slithered and turned and grew taut, and Arya heard the creak of old dry wood as the great iron rings strained against the floorboards of the wagon. Huge pale hands groped for her while veins bulged along Biter's arms, but the bonds held, and finally the man collapsed backward. Blood ran from the weeping sores on his cheeks." -A Clash of Kings - Arya II

"I would hope the truth would please you, Sire. Your men call Val a princess, but to the free folk she is only the sister of their king's dead wife. If you force her to marry a man she does not want, she is like to slit his throat on their wedding night. Even if she accepts her husband, that does not mean the wildlings will follow him, or you. The only man who can bind them to your cause is Mance Rayder." -A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

But Arya and Daenerys are not just physical. They are intelligent, witty, observant, and adapt to their environments/situations for survival. Daenerys takes in the cultures of her people and conforms to them. Arya makes friends and is protective over the people she cares for. Both have had to struggle in their lives. Both have gone without food, home, and family at their sides. Daenerys spent the first half of her life running from place-to-place along Essos as a beggar fearing for her life and enduring her brother's abuse when he became 'mad'. Arya lost her home and family after Ned's death and had to pose as a boy while fearing for her life. These experiences have shaped them for the harsh brutalities of the world while they remain gentle, kind, intelligent, and when fearful they search for strength within themselves to keep going on.

This strength and qualities that they possess is what Jon is mostly attracted to and likes. As shown in his relations/interactions with Ygritte and Val. Jon is also the sort of person Daenerys would like as well. Along with Arya. Daenerys would not openly go out of her way to antagonize neither Jon nor Arya upon meeting them. Daenerys is a gentle, sweet person who also has a fiery strength within her and she has been shown time and time again to be a compromiser, politically savvy, and possesses a sense of humor as well. Arya would likely take a liking to and befriend Daenerys due to the qualities both girls possess and their similarities.

"This time the monsters did not frighten her. They seemed almost old friends. Arya held the candle over her head. With each step she took, the shadows moved against the walls, as if they were turning to watch her pass. "Dragons," she whispered. She slid Needle out from under her cloak. The slender blade seemed very small and the dragons very big, yet somehow Arya felt better with steel in her hand." -A Game of Thrones - Arya IV

Jonsa/Sansa stans twist and contort these texts to fit their agendas, yet I doubt they read the books much or just go off of pointless metas they see their mutuals create. None of this is hard to infer or see based upon reading Daenerys, Arya, and Jon's chapters- yet they see it with a rose-tinted lens towards their favor in making Sansa a 'soft-powered' self-insert for their own benefit to run their delusions and false statements/metas/headacanons.

And when people call them out for it or express their distaste for them/Sansa, they come after them and call them misogynists. Apparently to them, Sansa is the only version of feminism, even though you can find and see clearly that Daenerys and Arya possess/are feminist themselves and are two of the most iconic, deeply-written, and wonderful women of ASOIAF. They had been as well in GoT until the hacks D&D completely miscontrued their characters to their own miogynystic and sexist agendas. But lets be honest here, those two idiots have been f*cking up Daenerys' storyline since season 2.

#daenerys defence squad #daenerys stormborn #daenerys targaryen #daenerys targeryan #daenerys appreciation #mother of dragons #pro daenerys targaryen #breaker of chains #khaleesi #team daenerys #jon snow #asoiaf jon #arya stark #asoif/got #asoiaf #meta #long post #long reads #anti jonsa #anti jonsa stans #asoiaf daenerys #asoiaf arya #rambles #ramblings #real frustrated with how jonsas think #and read #tbh it's all a hot mess with them #just here to vent my frustrations #jonerys #jon x daenerys

[fromtheseventhhell]

Mind you the "girl bosses" in question are Dany: who has been sold as a bridal slave at 13, been on the run and feared for her life since she was born, rarely known safety and security, been used as payment by her abusive brother and further abused by the husband she was given too, who has made it a point to protect other women around her from further harm despite having little agency, who faced multiple assassination attempts and the painful loss of her child, vowed to defend others who couldn't defend themselves, has faced constant misogyny on her journey to doing so, has put her own ambitions on hold in order to help others, and is currently the only character enacting wild scale revolution in order to protect a class of people nobody else is fighting for. And Arya: who has been on the run since the end of AGOT starving and scared, has been thrust into a warzone and directly affected by the violent impact, was witness to the horrific torture of the smallfolk by the mountain and his men, was captured and forced into servitude at Harrenhal, was beaten and threatened with sexual violence, who has witnessed countless people she cared about die including her father, mother, and brother, and who still remembers those who lost their lives when nobody else has and done her best to get justice for them.

Yeah, It's soooooo feminist to treat these two female characters like they're lesser because they aren't traditionally feminine. I find it funny how the ones who talk about the importance of valuing "feminine" strengths are the same ones who erase them from Dany and Arya. All of their intelligence, kindness, empathy, etc. get thrown out and their characters are reduced to ones who only know violence. Even the suffering and abuse they've gone through is treated as less impactful and they're given no sympathy. It's an interesting circle of them being misogynistic so that they can justify their misogyny to themselves. It also highlights how little they believe in the things they're saying. Supporting "feminine" characters has just become a convenient way of propping up their favorites; feminism is nothing but a disposable tool. If they actually cared then they wouldn't be rewriting characters to make them seem more "masculine", and in fact wouldn't care about that distinction at all. The female characters have a lot of overlapping experiences afterall.

No one is saying you have to like Arya or Dany, but being misogynistic toward them and trying to disguise it as feminism is disgusting. There's also no way of doing so that won't inevitably reflect poorly on the characters you claim to love. There's nothing productive about making such restrictive boxes for female characters. If you really don't care about them then you don't have to talk about them. It's as simple as that. But if putting them down is the only way you have of propping up your fave, then maybe it's time to find a character that you actually like.

#daenerys targaryen #pro daenerys targaryen #arya stark #pro arya stark #anti bs #fandom nonsense #anti jonsa stans #anti sansa stans #hurray for putting down these young girls who have faced incredible violence and abuse because they aren't traditionally feminine! #and I love how they used my post to start shit-talking Arya and Dany when I didn't even mention Sansa in the post! #they literally treat liking Arya and Dany as Sansa hate it's insane #sorry but Arya and Dany are the two main female characters they're just going to be more popular 🤷🏾‍♀️ #on top of that Dany is arguably one of the most iconic characters of all time #it's not misogynistic to like them more than Sansa

[annabrainchase]

dany stans are obsessed with us — cabbage brained illiterate jonsas

literally them —

#daenerys targaryen #anti jonsa #anti jonsa stans #daenerys daughter of jaehaerys was meant to be queen. daenerys lord of the seven kingdoms will outrun the cold and become #the targaryen on the iron throne. sansa still trying to figure out peasant psychology. why do they hate me so much uhh uhh um. blank

[jonnel-stark]

yes and we LOVE that for her like girl is obsessed with him still despite everything, while do you know a single character she does NOT think about except maybe once? yeah lmao

#reminder #she does not give a f about jon #sansa stark #anti jonsa #anti jonsa stans #anti sansan antis

[jonsasource]

any asoiaf character: exists

ppl who consume the novels through tumblr screenshots: is this jonsa foreshadowing

#anti jonsa #anti jonsa stans #asoiaf #sara snow #the tag is hilarious too.. why do you even watch this show if you hate them so much?

[lesbian-sansa]

Why is it always the same person

I don’t think A WHOLE JONSA can preach about what others should or shouldn’t ship

#I cannot believe there are still some of you creeping around in the year of 2023 #like let it gooooo #stop hating female characters just cause they stand between your bland inc3stuous crackship that’s never gonna happen anyway #like jeez #sansa stark #anti jonsa #anti jonsa stans #pro sansa stark #daensa #arya stark #daenerys targaryen #asoiaf #got

[key-to-the-north]

imagin having a url “jonnelsansa” and thinking you have any right to cry about daenerys oh god when will these ppl stop talking out loud

#anti jonsa #anti jonsa stans #asoiaf #fandom nonsense

[torchwood-99]

Just to make something clear. Jonsa stans, on the whole, are not fans of Brienne.

They're fans of Sansa having Brienne as a servant.

They're fans of this image they have of Brienne eternally suffering at never being able to live up to Westeros's patriarchal ideal of femininity, and therefore giving her life to serving Sansa who embodies that femininity.

They're fans of a 2D idea of Brienne as the sweet, naïve girl who has never done anything wrong, and will an unproblematic servant for their fave.

They're fans of having large, brutish Brienne existing in comparison to pretty, feminine Sansa.

They're fans of Brienne having a shitty relationship with Hyle Hunt, to contrast with the "Twu Luv" that is Jonsa.

They're fans of Brienne because they think here's a female character who can never be a risk to Sansa. Whose desires will never conflict with hers, and will never take any sort of prominence in the narrative they would like for Sansa.

If Brienne ever wants something other than to serve Sansa, if Brienne's desires ever conflicts with Sansa's, if Brienne goes through a character arc that doesn't revolve around serving Sansa, if Brienne is allowed to become more flawed and is no longer "sweet, naïve Brienne", if Brienne becomes anything other than "Sansa with a sword" (which she already has), if Brienne has a romance with Jaime that trumps any romance Sansa has, and if Brienne ever gains a narrative importance they want for Sansa, they will turn on her just as quickly as they have Arya and Daenerys.

#ASOIAF #A Song of Ice and Fire #Brienne of Tarth #Jaime-x-Brienne #Braime #anti Jonsa Stans

[stheresya]

"j*nsas ignore sansan shippers because they think the latter ship is irrelevant" is actually fucking hilarious because if you enter the #anti jonsa tag you'll hardly find any actual sansan stan there, and on the rare occasion you find one it's usually because they're defending themselves from harassment perpetrated by j*nsas who think they have the monopoly of sansa's character. meanwhile if you go into the #anti sansan tag you'll find nothing but j*nsas being their usual delulu selves.

sounds like sansan is not as irrelevant as j*nsas would like to believe.

#anti jonsa #sansan #anti jonsa stans

[jonsaforeshadowing]

jonsa foreshadowing of the day: chapter transition

#asoiaf #anti jonsa #anti jonsa stans

[rise-my-angel]

You are sooooo right about shippers not engaging with Jon as his own character. It’s especially weird for me (despite enjoying Jonerys in theory) to see Jonerys shippers doing this because like. They haven’t met. None of them are show!Jonerys fans for obvious reasons so it’s just the book versions of these characters and they have not met. Literally it’s all speculation about their dynamic. Despite being open to the ship under specific circumstances I don’t think it’s undeniably foreshadowed at all. Everything that gets called foreshadowing is tenuous. You can’t generally definitively call something foreshadowing until the events being purportedly foreshadowed actually come to pass, unless it’s truly really screaming in your face obvious but if it’s that obvious I’m not sure if it’s that good from a writing perspective. I think foreshadowing should only really be clear in retrospect. Shippers also are so selective in what they’ll acknowledge just do they can hold onto these moments. Like jonsas and the Slynt beheading. You’re so right that it is a JON moment. And shippers refuse to acknowledge that George say he was originally going to have Slynt HUNG, not beheaded, until someone pointed out that Jon would want to do it the northern way. Of everyone I think Jonrya shippers do the best at acknowledging Jon as his own character and I think it’s because there’s so much in the actually text demonstrating how much Jon and Arya care about each other. It’s not speculation unlike with Jonsa and Jonerys. It’s just that they read this and think it’s romance instead of sibling love. I can’t say I blame them because of the original outline, but it’s also a ship that is really really not for me because they were raised as siblings.

I actually sent you an ask months ago and forgot to check your response. I finally found it. I discussed how much upbringing influences how we know who our relatives are and that that’s why Jonerys doesn’t make me uncomfortable the way Jonrya and Jonsa do. I’m an evolutionary biologist so I fully understand why incest is avoided. However, I didn’t know how much we actually CAN detect our blood relatives without being raised to know who they are. I fully believed it was entirely upbringing, because upbringing is sufficient to establish someone as “relative” in our brains (ie adopted siblings recognize each other as siblings and are repulsed by the idea of mating despite not sharing blood). But I came to the false conclusion that because it was sufficient it’s the only mechanism. I did some looking into it and you’re right! There’s evidence that we can subconsciously smell our relatives based on MHC complexes—however this isn’t 100% reliable because sometimes our relatives will have differing MHC complexes and nonrelatives will have very similar ones just based on recombination and the gene pool of the population, but that’s why the upbringing factor exists as a supplement to innate biological factor. I appreciated being prompted to learn more!

However I’m not sure George would take this into consideration. Within the universe of the books, I think it’s perfectly feasible that they wouldn’t biologically recognize each other as relatives because there are many cases of non first degree incest (first degree being siblings and parents) being carried out without any disgust. However real life is obviously different I do not blame anyone at all for being opposed to a ship based on real life principles. There are lots of ships I oppose that would be fine in-universe based on my own real life principles.

Anyway I’ve said a lot here and sorry for all the words. I just really enjoy discussion and it’s hard to have any nuanced conversations in the fandom because of the issues we’ve mentioned here and I’m eager to find someone so willing to engage with people who have different opinions

You wrote me an essay, so I wrote you a novel in return. I am sorry in advance but I love rational and calm, respectful discussions and debate and you thus far have been a great sport for my word vomit.

This isn't directed at you personally, but more of a blanket statement in saying, it is just very odd and funny that in this specific fandom, I find myself having to be more knowledgeable about the harmful physical, genetic, and psychological impacts of incest, to explain why I am against it, then those who are for it. It is just very funny how much defending I do about not supporting incest ships, compared to any other fandom where any incest shippers live in the dark because they know it's weird and gross.

That being said, I'm addressing Jonrya first. Because, I have gone on record to say I personally think shipping that is very gross.

Show or Book, that is a dynamic where any romantic implications being attached to it are very uncomfortable. Arya is so deeply ingrained in his head as his baby sister that adding any romance to that makes Jon look incredibly predatory. Arya is still a very young child in the single digits in the books, and Jon is very clearly at the start of the show a man in his 20's.

I do not think claiming anything of the outline is any reasonable argument. It was in an outline which was scrapped for a reason. As a writer, I wouldn't want any of my initial outline ideas to be used as proof of canon. It isn't canon one way or the other and I do not accept it as fair use of evidence for a ship. Jons canon thoughts about her are textbook loving older brother. It feels predatory to make Jons thoughts of a very young, child Arya to be that of romantic. It makes him appear as if his closeness and kindness were all tinted in a different intent towards a child.

Arya in every adaptation, is too young. I will never support any evidence of that ship because it is the exact kind of predatory dynamic which Jonrya fans denounce in other ships involving older man/younger woman characters. I hate this idea of taking Jons point of view and deciding his affection is not brotherly, only when discussing his sisters. It takes away the validity of Jons character being a good big brother, because now his good brotherly nature only towards his sisters is rooted in predatory behaviour whether they realize it or not. This goes for Jonrya and Jonsa both.

Moving on, you did hit the nail on the head about the “proof” about Jon and Dany. Foreshadowing is not a common tool used whenever grrm writes anything. Foreshadowing is a very specific tool he uses to elaborate more on motifs and themes and over arching plots, rather then for every minute character dynamic. Jon and Dany have literally no evidence that a ship will exist. They are not even on the same continent and they are constantly shown to be at extreme moral opposites to one another.

There is no scrap of proof a relationship or even base attraction will ever exist. That is all pure fan theory with no in text evidence. Same with Jon and Sansa. Jon doesn't not think about Sansa because he loves her the most. That is not Jon Snow, we know that. He thinks constantly about the people he loves, and there is no evidence backing up he doesn't think of her often for love that is not also pure fan theory with no empirical evidence. Sansa had rarely ever thought about Jon and when she has more times then not, it was associated in a negative light. Her points of view about her bullying of Arya showcase that, as she insults and wishes to denounce Arya as someone she should care about in ways that connect her to Jon. Wishing Arya was a bastard like him because she doesn't want to call her a trueborn sister. Repeatedly noting Arya looks just like Jon and then exploring the times Sansa constantly thinks Arya is ugly. The only time she has any growth about this is when she is being talked down to when posing as Petyr Baelish's bastard daughter, and she doesn't like being treated that way, but it is not explored that Sansa has literally treated Jon worse then this her whole life. She has not yet even realized she engaged in the exact same kind of classist treatment that Catelyn treated him with.

So much of what Jonerys, Jonsa, and Jonrya shippers do, is look at Jon and discuss it in a way that supposedly symbolizes their ship. They do NOT analyze their female fave and associate how deeply it all ties to their ship. Jons story is always secretly about the ship, but the other female part of the ship is their own story who will only be about Jon when they get together. Jon is not the character they like, it is the girl. Jon is the love interest, the accessory to their story. Not a unique half all of his own.

As for the incest, because these people all function biologically the same as we do, other then when magic is inferred, it is reasonable to assume real life science is included. Grrm does not need to tell me about invisible pheromones or scent markers for me to apply that to the characters. It is indirectly supported by the sheer fact that most characters within the world of asoiaf do not engage in incest and do not support it. Meaning, 99% of the average population of asoiaf are not attracted to their family members what so ever. Meaning it is reasonable to assume the same biological factors are at play here.

But the thing about certain incest dynamics not being carried out with disgust doesn't really apply with Jon ships here. Jons three biggest ships are his little sisters, and his aunt. Two family relations that both physically and psychologically are the most harmful to engage in. The dynamics of incest shown to be the most psychologically harmful is sibling to sibling incest, parent to child incest, and aunt/uncle to nephew/neice incest. Those are such close familial ties with SO many shared biological markers that it is not reasonable at all to think not knowing each other at first would make that biological connection less important. I only met my aunt in my mid 20's and from that moment on she has been as much my aunt in my head as my mother is my mother. Once that knowlede of family is made, it will not be severed. If Jon is not inclinced already towards incest, he will never engage in it with that knowledge.

Dany is his aunt. Dany also, has very inbed genetics to a shocking degree, meaning the biological markers she shares with Jon would be so strong she basically would wreak of red flags. And learning they have such a close biological connection would instantly sever any possible ability in Jon to view her in any romantic or physical attraction sense. He was not raised like her. Jon does not now think incest is normal, and thus he never will.

Also, learning Dany is his aunt would make any physical or romantic dynamics extremely traumatizing for him. The second Jon learns the truth of his birth, Jon will realize that he is related to Dany in the exact way Jon spent his whole life thinking he was related to the woman who was his mother. Jon learning his aunt was actually his mother, would destroy any capability of a relationship with Dany.

That would utterly change every single way he views any character in a motherly or aunt manner. It would destroy that potential in an instant because now Dany is to Jon, what Jon previously thought his mother was to him. It would be traumatizing should a relationship already exist and it would sever any chance of a relationship forming if it hadn't existed already.

The reason the Targaryeans did the most incest and are almost extinct, is because their engaging in incest was not sustainable and it was harmful.

Shown by characters like Egg, who literally grew up his whole life trying to escape the incestual nature of his family. One of his brothers made threats about cutting off his manhood in terms of making a wife for himself. That is not a family who engages in incest beceause they think it is normal. This is a family raised to view their incest in terms of furthering a bloodline because they see themselves as superior to those they rule over. They do not think it is fine, they do it because they raise each other to think it is necessary to further their superior bloodline. And they paid the price. Targaryean women the more inbred they were struggled to give birth, struggled to carry pregnancies to term and often died on the birthing bed with alarming freqency for how short their dynasty lasted.

It is not sustainable and it is harmful. The main plot beat of the story was literally how so many people viewed the incestual relationship of a brother and sister to be an abomination, that wars were started to dethrone them and the population and faith turned against them for it. This is not a world where people think incest is fine, unless it is a learned behaviour their whole life.

People can ship it, it's fine. But despite how much he writes it, grrm time and time again has shown that those in asoiaf who engage in incest, pay a deep, harmful price for it. He writes it a lot, but writing a lot of it does not mean he thinks it is behavior which should be supported for his charcters. Otherwise those who engage in such close incest, would not constantly be punished for doing so.

I have to apply real world logic to being anti incest, because my excuse of “I think it's gross” has been deemed as hateful and unfair. So you can imagine it is frustrating to see my favourite character is primiarly shipped with either women with VERY close biological or familial ties to him, or his rapist.

So, yeah I love talking about Jon but so much of it is me defending why I have never been convinced of any pro incest arguments. It is a goofy situation to be in.

Those who followed me for my pedro pascal content are dying on the inside, I decided I loved Jon Snow and suddenly my blog keeps becoming a haven of debates around the morality of incest.

It is silly silly silly.

#anti tag speedrun time lets go #game of thrones #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #jon snow #anti jonerys #anti jonsa #anti jonrya #anti jongritte #anti jonerys stans #anti jonsa stans #anti sansa stans #anti daenerys targaryen #anti dany stans #anti targ stans #anti targaryen #anti targ restoration #i think thats it ill get yelled at if i missed any anways #long post

[pixiecactus]

"sansa ↣ an acquaintance (nothing more to say)"

this is the argument jonsas make when they say it's not really incest. just thought you ought to know.

yeah, i know. but at this point they would say that jon breathing in the same room as sansa, means that jon is choosing to spend his life with her lol

imo is really weird the holier than thou actitude they have over this and incest ships in general in the series, like this is asoiaf, i'm in not way condoning incest in real life, but this is a fantasy series with fictional people in a medieval-esque inspired world, and incest was a practice that nobility took part in the real world, like it or not. either way both of them being sibling/cousins will make it an incestuous ship, so they are even wrong about that

does not change the fact that for me, jon will never care about her in the same way he cares for the siblings he adores, in fact we see him barely caring about her marriage to tyrion, and with jon knowing of how much sansa idealized gallant princes and knights, he could have definitely an inkling that it was a forced marriage and not what she dreamed of, but he simply does not care

#now i'm going to take a break of posting #estoy a punto de decir uds no saben lo inteligente que soy en español pero la verdad es que sin importar el idioma soy mediocre #pero al menos en español no tengo que pasar buscando como se escriben las palabras gramaticalmente #porque ya las conozco #thanks for your ask tho #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #house stark #jon snow #anti sansa stans #anti jonsa stans

[fromtheseventhhell]

You know what else is so funny about the stansas is how they use the 'radiant' argument as proof that Jon liked Sansa when it's the lamest description compared to how Jon describes Ygritte or Val lmao

And even then Catelyn uses "radiant" to describe Lysa on her wedding day, so in-universe it doesn't have any romantic implication like they love to pretend it does. That's why there are posts of them pulling up "evidence" from Twilight, an entirely different book with a different author, to prove their point. Jon barely even thinks about her and they know that, which is why they have to steal quotes about him thinking of Arya/Ygritte/Val and pretend they're about her lol

#ask #anon #anti sansa stans #anti jonsa stans #stansa: if Jon calling Sansa radiant isn't romantic why did Edward call Bella radiant? 🤨 Check-mate antis! #they really highlight how little sense jonsa makes...they just lack the self-awareness to realize it #and it's not even that they care about Jon lol they just want everything to revolve around her and hate that it doesn't

[fang-venkas]

Honestly “Daenerys only decided to stay in Essos to test out what’s it like to rule” is such a shit.take. And a huge misunderstanding of the character, because no - she chose to stay because she has experienced first hand what’s it like to be sold and she doesn’t want for people to be put through that. She wants to help whoever she can. It’s something that is so incredibly personal and important that she decides to put her ultimate goal - the iron throne - aside.

#How is this something that gets misunderstood so bad #like it’s relatively simple to grasp imo #daenerys targaryen #asoiaf #game of thrones #pro daenerys #anti jonsa stans

[helaenasaegon]

Holy shit, J*nsa shippers are fucking annoying. I usually manage to avoid them, but I just saw some, and Oh my God. 🙄

#I don't like being a hater about shipping bc I KNOW WELL GETTING HATE FOR MY SHIPS but... #It's not the ship. It's the shit they say and the way the act. #Ship whatever you want but don't be a delusional asshole about it. 🙄 #anti jonsa #anti jonsa stans #anti sansa stans #asoiaf fandom bs #fandom bs #txt