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Not my post. Reblogged.

So, Denver Con 2021, THE QUESTION from J2 panel:

Q: Okay so I’m a mom - a couple of my kids identify as queer, I always appreciated how like, organically you introduced gay characters into things - sorry I’m shaking, I’m so nervous. And so my question is - with Castiel, when did you know that the way he loved Dean was in a romantic, like deep love? Like when in the series did you know - because we always kinda debate over - see this is when they’re, you know, kinda dropping hints-

Jared: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [to Jensen] Do you want to take this, do you want me to take this?

Jensen: Sure.

[both Jared and Jensen trying to speak at once]

Jensen: Um. I don’t - I don’t think Dean ever really knew until the very end there. Um. In fact I know he didn’t because I never played that. I would say - when Jensen found out, or when it was kinda discussed internally that it- I- it’s interesting because the- I think “romantic”- [Jared interrupts here]

Jared: I think the point is- [Jensen interrupts to finish his thought]

Jensen: I think the term ‘romantic’ is being used because there isn’t a term that necessarily- [Jared interrupts here]

I wonder where was Jensen going with his answer, because it looks like he wanted to remind us AGAIN that we shouldn’t categorize angels’ emotions in human terms.

Jared [using air quotes to indicate that he’s quoting the show]: He’s “junkless,” you know?

Jensen: uh, yeah…[Jared interrupts here]

Jared: I think the point- [Jensen interrupts to finish his thought]

Jensen: I don’t think lust is–is involved with the romanticism- [Jared interrupts here and Jensen gives up]

generous interpretation: Jensen wants to remind us that having romantic feelings doesn’t necessarily equate wanting to have sex.

less-generous interpretation: romantic gay love is ok, as long as it doesn’t involve sex (but I don’t think he meant it that way)

Jared: I don’t think it’s the point that they both have… human male bodies, seemingly…and…want to…sleep with each other, i think the point is that, like, you could love anything. like It’s a superpower [Jensen nods here]. You can love - Someone can punch you in the face and you can say, “I love you, I forgive you.” Someone can give you a million bucks, and you can go, “I love you.” It doesn’t mean, like - I say that with my friends, I say it with Ackles, like, “Hey, I love you, man.” It doesn’t mean like, “I wanna take you to a hotel room", it just means that I love you. [1] And so that was, the - the - the point of the relationship, story-wise, is that they could love each other, you know - Sam and Dean loved each other, it wasn’t a show about incest, you now. Cas and Dean can love each other, it’s not a show about - it’s not a show about heterosexuality or non-binary - it’s a show about like “hey, you can choose to live your life with love”, not “hey, this means they wanna make out”. It’s not about that. [2] It’s about - I can tell my son, “I love you,” and it’s not that I want to do something to or with my son, I just love my son. My daughter can say the same thing. So that wasn’t, I’m sorry, that wasn’t the point of that scene. The point was, you are free to love whoever you want, you can be heterosexual and love whoever you want, you can be queer and love whoever you want, you can be any part of the LGBTQIA and love whoever the fuck you want - sorry for my cursing - it doesn’t mean you want to do something with them or to them. So hopefully Supernatural in its 327 episodes helped to have people love those around them.

[twice in the course of Jared’s speech Jensen opened his mouth about to say something, but ultimately decided to let Jared finish first]

So I have a few questions for Jared:

- If 'I love you’ when we say it to our children or friends is always meant to be in a platonic way and we can be any part of LGBTQIA and love whoever we want and the 'I love you’ holds the same magnitude, then does romantic love exist in his world at all?

-why is he so vehemently against 'I love you’ meant to be understood in a sexual or even romantic way in the confession scene, that he throws it in the same category as incest or pedophilia? what is wrong with gay love being not only being romantic feelings but also about sex?

- was Anna Milton also junkless? Was Cas magically not junkless when he became human in s9 (and Dean was sending him on a date)?

- angels making nephilim were also “junkless”?

- what about the whole “Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets” episode?

- what about Adam and Serafina in season 15???

- Cas had said “I love you” to Dean twice before and it was meant platonically, so if saying this for the third time was also in a bro way, then why would it be so special, that saying it again made Cas the happiest in his life and triggered his deal with the Empty? Why would Cas think that friendship with Dean is something, that he knows that he can’t have? Just a few episodes ago (in 15x09) Dean told Cas thah he is his best friend.

- was Jared watching different show?

- is he as stupid as tall or he is doing this because the audience is mostly bibros?

- why is he talking what Cas was feeling in that scene, when the question wasn’t even about it?

Jensen: I think that’s really what was - and I’m just piggybacking off of what he said in that- that the love that Cas had is heavenly - it was, you know, he’s an angel, so he’s able to… he’s able to, I think, love on a level and on a plane that human emotion doesn’t necessarily comprehend. And I think we might default to making it a romantic or a sexual love, when - I think- the way that I kind of interpreted it - and this is the great thing about the show and the relationships and some of these characters is, that they’re open for interpretation [Jared nods in agreement]. If you find identity in a character because of whatever reason, fantastic, great. If that encourages you to be a better person or to love someone a little harder or to forgive someone for something, then fantastic. That’s - I think that’s one of the beautiful things about doing what we do is we get to encourage people on a variety of levels.

Jared: To think.

Jensen: And I think Cas’s love was a love that isn’t identified by humans, necessarily. It was a love that superseded [making a hand gesture indicating that he means something higher, above] that. We try to find words to describe that, and I just don’t think there are words.

Jared: Yeah. But thank you, and glad y’all connected with it, on whatever level.

Nowhere in this speech Jensen had said that Castiel’s love is canonically only platonic or that it was something below the level of romantic. He said that for him it was something heavenly and love on a level and on a plane that human emotion doesn’t necessarily comprehend. Which is consistent with his interview form 2020 where he said:

"But you also have to remember that Cas is a celestial being, and he’s thinking in a way that might not be comprehensible by a human heart or by a human brain. So the things that he says- I always from Dean’s perspective- I don’t know if I understand where he’s coming from or what he means from a humanistic stand point, Even though he kind of transferred into a human over the course of twelve years. But he was always coming from this, there was always an angelic aspect to him that Dean may, or may not have understood.

So I don’t know, don’t know how humanistic the feelings being professed at that moment were, or maybe they were, maybe that was what was happening. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer. I think that’s the beauty of what this story gives you, hopefully it gives everybody something".

And about the nature of Cas’s confession being open to interpretation part, It’s also nothing new, because in 2020 Jensen had said this:

[,,,]From Dean’s perspective, and Misha and I have talked about this, we’ve talked about this prior to filming that scene, during that scene, and we’ve talked about it since. I’ve actually talked to him uh, a lot this past week, about the reaction, what we want to add to that reaction, how we want to navigate that. Because we’re getting a lot of questions about what do you think, what do you mean, what was your intent, and he and I both kind of talked about, well if you, and this may be a little a little too out there but go with me here- Well artists don’t stand in a gallery next to their painting and tell you exactly what you should be seeing. And I kind of, I hope it doesn’t sound like a cop out, because it’s not meant to be, its truly meant to be. I knew where Jensen was in that scene, I also was making a choice for Dean in that scene. I kind of knew what I was trying to play with him, but at the same time what came across from a visual standpoint and a storytelling standpoint, and the audience perspective could be a multitude of things. And I would just, I would never want to tell someone what they should and shouldn’t see. Um, and not that, and again I’m not trying to do a cop out because I know it was a very important scene on a variety of levels, but I kind of, and I always thought i mean I’ll give you guys a little bit of an insight into. There were no choices made on Dean’s part, and I hope I made that apparent because he was dealing with something far greater than what Cas was expressing to him. He was dealing with his friend was about to die. So I’m not sure that Dean absorbed or processed anything that was coming out of his mouth at that moment.

On the next day of Denver Con, Misha had panel with Alex, where Misha gave similar, “open for interpretation”, long, nonanswer about what Cas was feeling in the confession scene:

Q: So my question. um yeah, my question is about the confession scene. um… before- [to person handling the microphone] no? I’m not allowed to ask about the confession?

Misha: Yes, you are.

Q: ok, thank you. um… so when- uh before Cas says that he loves Dean, um… he says that uh… Oh my gosh I’m so. Drawing a blank here, um, but he says that there was something- he knows what he wanted, there’s something that he wanted that he knows he can’t have, um and I kind of felt like he knows that he has Dean’s friendship, he knows that they’re family and he knows that he was forgiven. So I was wondering what your, your um… interpretation of what Cas’s- his ultimate- what he wants that he can’t have?

Misha: [deep breath] um, well… You know, I wish I actually remembered the actual text better and I’m sure that you could call it up for me, but um… but I… I have my interpretation. I know what was going on in Cas’s head, because I was Cas. Um… and that gives me, um some insight. But I don’t really want to break it apart in nuanced ways, um.. from my interpretation, because then that becomes like the definitive answer for what was, you know, happening ; and I, like uh someone asked me to interpret one of my poems the other day and, first of all I had no fucking Idea what it was about, but secondly um… I don’t like to do that with art in general. I think it’s kind of um- I like the- I like the audience to analyze what has been presented by the artist and not have the artist come out and explain “so this is what I meant, this was my intention at this beat, this is what I meant by knowing that I couldn’t have”. Um.. so, yeah, I don’t know. I also beca- yes, also because it’s like particularly - I mean I think if this was like a fleeting insignificant moment on the show, it would be one thing and I probably would weigh in on, but because this is like, you know, it’s a seminal moment, it’s my characters last scene on the show, I don’t want my interpretation of it to be like the definitive word. I want it to be- wanted to be everyone’s personal journey. And- Yes, and I will say one more thing, which is that I- there’s certainly no interpretations of that- that- I’m going to say… um… [long pause] This is like such a minefield. [another long pause] I don’t’ know. I know what I- I know how I approached it and I feel really good about it, and I’ll be honest with you: I kind of feel like that came across. Um… so there you go. I gave you- I gave you the best I could. I’m not really terribly well trained as an actor, so I could have probably done a better job, but I gave you the best I could. And I think I tried to convey- I think I tried to convey my intention, um, as clearly and, and… honestly as I could.

Q: Thank you.

Misha: Yeah.

Alex: Your beautiful, lovely, throbbing interpretation.

[Misha, after laughing for 6 seconds, is making a fist bump with Alex]

It’s also worth noticing that, nowhere in J2 panel, Jensen states what, in his opinion, Dean feels toward Castiel.

But don’t worry Mr. Ackles, I saw your unscripted acting choices. I saw your unprompted “Dean has no taste, clearly.”

I haven’t forgotten about it.

#Jensen Ackles #Misha Collins #Alexander Calvert #supernatural #denver con 2021 #dencon21 #Castiel #Dean Winchester #destiel

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