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todayisafridaynight · 1 year

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Funny you mention that, I'm actually planning to go a step further and have proper relationships sections! So every character relationship in the infobox (and then some) can be covered with the depth they deserve.

Of course, that kind of thing can go off the rails fast and become a breeding ground for speculation, so they'll focus solely on the progression of the relationship from the perspective of the character whose article it is, and require a citation for every claim made. (I'd personally like to move towards citing every claim we make period, but it'd probably be best to start with baby steps.)

So I've had that cooking for a while (Jo is coincidentally the character I decided to start with, since he has very few relationships but they're all complex enough for a stress test). I probably shouldn't approach it with the intent to "correct misunderstandings," but I would like to think fans might have an easier time creating in-character fanworks with all of that information in one place. At the very least, you wouldn't necessarily have to go back through all the RGGO stories as a refresher lol.

I've never wanted to address Mine's orientation per se--not that that's quite what you were talking about I think, this is purely as an aside--because a lot of it's considered semantics and I just can't cite it directly in the way I can cite his feelings for Daigo. But on a personal level, I'm honestly surprised at the number of dudebros I've seen who'd be willing to accept he's bi, but being gay is a bridge too far on account of him dating women.

But the point of what he was talking about in the finale is that those relationships weren't at all fulfilling for him, right? Through a purely speculative lens, Jo claiming to be unable to remember Ikumi's name reminds me of that somehow. Like, if that's actually true, you remember every single minute detail of New Year's down to the locker numbers, where Ikumi gave birth, what Arakawa's face looked like, but you can't remember the name of the mother of your child? Alright, man. That's so normal. There's no trauma and/or comphet-adjacence there.

Speaking of--yeah, Masato's card unfortunately comes with no story, so it's not just bad luck. Character stories were discontinued with Kawara and Bessho, I think over a year ago now. On one hand I'm kind of thankful because they've been making it increasingly difficult to actually pull newly-released cards, but on the other hand, it's a huge part of what made cards worth trying for in the first place.

I do get it in terms of sheer volume though; it's mainly Yokoyama and Takeuchi themselves writing everything, and for scale, if I take solely my own translations of all of Mine's events and stories, it'd equal roughly 27.5k words. I can understand putting out that novella-length volume of content--ridiculously HQ content at that--every month isn't feasible when you're also writing for console entries on top of that.

You definitely shouldn't be putting yourself down in comparison though haha, I adore your work precisely because you've got such an excellent grasp on the characters and I always look forward to anything you put out!

Very, very true about Mine and his dad! I think if I were to summarize my findings from the papers (with regard to Mine specifically), Mine has this line in the finale about his hatred of people like Kiryu who "live solely by the principles of giri-ninjo, moral obligation and human feeling." Obviously not translated that way in-game because it's pretty lofty, but there is significance to it as I see it.

Focusing on the ninjo aspect, the papers define the term as "knowing how to [depend and presume upon another’s benevolence] properly and how to respond to the call [to depend and presume] in others." The "dependency need" component is thought develop as a baby first bonds with its parent.

Although it's commonly associated with child and parent, it applies to many forms of dependence, "such as between lovers, friends, husband and wife, teacher and student, employer and employee." It should also be noted it's not strictly hierarchical--superiors depend on their subordinates just as much.

So ninjo is a concept with a history of being considered "specifically as Japanese" in a way Westerners wouldn't understand. (It isn't actually, of course--everyone experiences this form of dependence--however, if I recall correctly, Japanese people were found to be significantly more likely to recognize and admit to it than Westerners.)

By opposing ninjo, a Japanese ideal of dependence, Mine implicitly aligns himself with "the Western ideal of personal independence," which is described as an ideal in which "one might just as well depend upon oneself or become independent, since there is nobody else to depend upon."

This is absolutely rooted in his being an orphan. His "dependency need" was at one point fulfilled by his dad's presence in his life, and once he lost him, he spent the rest of his life fluctuating between searching for someone else who would fulfill it and trying to be someone who doesn't experience "dependency need."

In contrast to Japanese society, where "parental dependency is fostered and its behavior pattern institutionalized into the social structure," the idealized version of Western society values an individual's success over their background. One example is the American myth of the "self-made man," which Mine describes himself as in the original Y3. As an orphan, his rejection of Japanese society in favor of Western society would make sense in that regard as well.

Growing up with no one to depend on and often facing loss and betrayal when he tried to, Mine avoids relying on or trusting others for most of his life. He is independent not because it comes naturally to him, but because of how dependence has hurt him in the past--i.e., "one might just as well depend upon oneself or become independent, since there is nobody else to depend upon."

However, Mine does accept and directly acknowledge the concept at the heart of ninjo when he admits in the finale, "People yearn to trust others. And to be trusted in return." That also coincides with him choosing to end things according to his code of honor as a yakuza, and literally taking the game's main representative of Western culture down with him. It's so perfect within this framework that I have no idea if Yokoyama even knew what he was doing, but He Sure Did It.

But it absolutely works with what you said, and I think it's fairly self-evident because you were able to pick up on it even if you didn't have the exact terminology in mind; Mine once his dependency need fulfilled where Jo never did, and it's made all the difference. I'm a very, very heavily Westernized South Asian still living in South Asia, and I imagine there's less overlap between SAsian culture and EAsian culture, but I've always thought "family values" such as those discussed are more or less ubiquitous in Asian cultures. For what it's worth, I relate strongly to Mine here.

(Also, in case anyone one day accuses me of copying Mine's future personality section from Tumblr, a fair amount of this is from my draft of that. I'm trying my best to make it sound less insane because it's going on a wiki, but y'know.)

Rewinding a little bit, I wanted to point out that Mine being bullied for being an orphan in that specific scene is more or less an invention of Y3R's localization. Kind of an understandable one, because he certainly did face it and Y3R's script was written without ever consulting a Japanese translation, but an invention nonetheless; in that scene, he was being bullied for being poor, not being an orphan.

But I don't think that affects the validity of your point at all, since--and it might not be totally intentional, since Mine wasn't always supposed to be the main antagonist--all the time you spend working with the Morning Glory kids through their problems effectively shows what he may have gone through. Except that he, also like Jo I suppose, had no adults in his life to help him navigate those same problems.

It's hear-twrenching listening to Masato talk about his disability even as an adult, the role internalized ableism played in creating that rift can't be overstated. Brings to mind the image of Arakawa at a complete loss how to respond when Masato was hitting his legs; perhaps if he'd been better-equipped to get through to him as a parent in the way Ichi was able to at the end, things might have turned out different. I think Arakawa displays a lot more emotional maturity and awareness than most characters, but he's not always able or willing to communicate that.

Once again, I absolutely love how your comparison post turned out! I wouldn't have minded being @'d (not that I mind not being @'d) at all haha, I'm not very active so I love getting notifications. Just a huge fan of your presentation, super clean and easy to follow in my opinion. There are a few points I'd love to discuss further, but I know my asks tend to be way too long for what they are haha, so I'll wait. But yeah, just as the Venn diagram of Mine and Jo overlaps, so does the Venn diagram of Mine and Jo fans. Happy to have you in the middle!

I'm glad you got as much out of the books as I did! That's exactly why I think they works super well for them, and I was hoping you'd catch the added Art Appreciator similarity. Also worth noting the art history books appear to be in Polish? I guess you wouldn't need to understand the language if you were more about admiring the art itself (my own art history books are in English and I ignore the text in every single one), but it's kind of funny to have all these thick Tomes you probably can't read.

Also very true. I feel like Hijikata and DS Ryuji aren't quite even since Saigo does exist haha, though he doesn't have as much screen time as Hijikata. There are a few opportunities Mine seems to lose out to Ryuji or others (Ryuji being chosen over him as an RGGO protagonist when Mine was in the running and frankly fit the criteria better, for example), but it is what it is.

Yokoyama did mention the love for the first three games' rivals makes casting for spinoffs really easy though, so I do have hope for more actual Mine! I'd like to see a Dead Souls 2 (he has a pretty good excuse to be cyborg-ified, given the probable state of his body after the fall lmao), or maybe even an Ishin 2, since the events that led to Hijikata and the others' deaths in real life were avoided in Ishin.

I know Yokoyama's talked about a "Y0.5" with Ryuji and Mine, a French Revolution spinoff (???), a Romance of the Three Kingdoms spinoff, and a Sengoku-era Hattori Hanzo spinoff featuring 8 protagonists and the same "all-star" approach to casting as Ishin. Someone else pitched a spinoff for when the yakuza first came into existence, too. And, at one point, before Ichi existed, they were considering continuing the series with Gaiden-type games featuring various characters (though I think going forward, further Gaidens would depend on the success of Gaiden.) So there are lots of possibilities! I really do hope he gets to be a protagonist or playable character one day, since he fits the mold perfectly IMO.

I'm happy you appreciate my offering haha! I hope you'll let us know what you think of Princess Toyotomi and Hero SP whenever you get to them. That is unfortunately how I found out about Toru :') I adore the leads and their relationship myself, so I never would've thought Pure would go there! But I suppose it does check out for Tsutsumi's career.

Good Morning Show is honestly driving me insane because I'm positive I watched it but can't find it at the same address anymore??? I had to watch it with clearly machine translated subs, but it was as chaotic as it looks. Godspeed!

Oh, I also wanted to weigh in on the "Masato's care" line since that was originally supposed to be part of the response (and since the topic of localization is super interesting to me, as someone who not only translates works but translates RGGS' works and has needed to become intimately familiar with the official localization style).

It's an odd choice, because on top of what Anon said, everything from the context to the grammatical construction of the original Japanese sentence should clearly convey that what he's apologizing for is not taking sole responsibility for Masato's care and having Ichiban attend to him on top of his regular duties. He's not apologizing for Masato's care itself being a burden.

Honestly kind of baffling because not two scenes earlier, they convey the exact same sentiment perfectly--"Sorry to bother you with something so personal." [JP] / "I'm sorry to keep asking you to help me with something so personal." [EN]. It's like, to me, talented localization teams should absolutely be celebrated, but they should also be completely "invisible" in the moment. They're not invisible in that moment because it's their biases coming through rather the character or even the writer's biases.

I don't necessarily mean bias in terms of internalizing ableist ideas (it's hard to say it plays no part, given it's a disabled character being discussed, but what I mean is there's not at all enough to go on to conclude it was a malicious or even a conscious decision). I also mean in the sense of getting "locked into" a certain way of thinking about disabled characters and their care, and multiple different teams (base translation, dub editors, and sub editors) going over that line and not thinking twice.

Because like, it's true that in fiction (and unfortunately real life) you do see parents who feel it's a burden, but that doesn't mean Arakawa has to be that way. It kind of undermines RGG Studio's efforts to employ rigorous sensitivity checks starting this "generation" of games (starring Yagami and Ichiban, I mean) when things slip through the cracks like that.

And it's not the only area it happens; there are a number of places where there's this "tunnel vision" surrounding certain ideas that comes to the forefront. One of the things that leads to is instances of "pigeonholing" characters into pre-existing molds while not giving enough consideration to who the characters actually are in this particular work.

For me Jo actually got the brunt of it (or perhaps I was just most sensitive to it), from marketing to localization. Marketing-wise, the very first time we saw him in English-language trailers, it was literally for one second after either the word "BAD" or a synonym flashed on-screen. A far cry from Tsutsumi's one-on-one interview where he explicitly says Jo is doing everything in service of a deeper motive, his English voice actor was not interviewed at all, while most major characters' English voice actors were.

Localization-wise, there's one thing that perfectly encapsulates (if you'll allow me to be dramatic for a moment) "What Went Wrong." It's what they decided to call Jo's fighting style. The fact it went from Shame Style to something as trite as Vile Blade genuinely haunts me to this day. Just the sheer flanderization in taking a name that lays bare the core of his character and motivations, a name that conveys perfectly how he sees himself as inhuman and irredeemable, and then turning it inside-out to suggest he IS inhuman and irredeemable? That's insane to me.

Of course, I'm not really able to gauge whether/how that kind of thing actually affected the reception or general understanding of him as a character since I haven't participated in the fandom at all for years, but I do wonder if it has.

Having pages dedicated to relationships and including how each character perceives their relationships sounds like a fair idea (I've always been a fan about how on Masato's page, Yumeno is regarded as his 'girlfriend' while on her page he's only her 'customer'. It's a small detail all things considered, but it's a great way to emphasize how much impact one party can have on another and can deepen the significance of relationships and interactions)! And having citations at the ready is always a good idea to help clear up misinformation or just to simply provide tidbits people are curious about, though obviously with a franchise as big as RGG (including RGGO content), it's very easy to understand if it would take significant time to have absolutely everything accounted for. It's what makes the time dedicated to this kind of work all the more respectable, really!

When it comes to Mine- or any character honestly- and their orientation, for the sake of sharing information clearly, I think it'd be better just to focus on what's provided opposed to trying to find a concrete label for it, so I can't say I'm all too upset at the lack of a solid 'confirmation' and I am grateful for the material given that lets us work towards one conclusion and another.

It is surprising to me that people are more open to Mine being bisexual though (I usually see people try to ignore the fact bisexuality is an option. It's a weird win I guess..). But as you've pointed out, I personally believe Mine's case was more about a case of comphet behavior, as the line where he alludes to his past relations with women it's from a segment where he's specifically highlighting how he wasn't happy abiding by what should have made him happy. I still don't know how people observed the full scene but decided to block out the very next line where he says he was unsatisfied and just walked away with 'Mine likes women'. ☠️

Onto Jo though, the state of his memory about Masato's birth really is jarring when you point it out. It's one thing to just chalk it up to a sprinkle of misogyny and not finding Ikumi important (though at least RGG was nice enough to give her files a proper name), but really thinking about it, it's incredibly bizarre he doesn't remember at all. Not considering the actual nine months they had to live together for Ikumi to have Masato, I'd assume they'd have to live together a little longer than that then- and still nothing...? But everything else about that night... Definitely something to raise an eyebrow about lmao

That's unfortunate about the RGGO stories though! But like you said, it's totally understandable as to why they had to discontinue them (but also of course, they were a big attraction to me personally to play the game and card hunt), especially when it's only two people already having to juggle other projects. But thank you for the encouragement with my own personal projects: I try not to be too hard on myself since that certainly won't do anything, and it certainly helps to know that I'm on the right track with what I'm doing! I really do love these characters (and I'm also terribly aware they're a bit unpopular all things considered), so I always want to do what I can to do them justice for myself and other fans!

Highlighting Mine's preference towards the West has really been a great experience- it's something I've only noticed on small scales (i.e. his foreign car and of course his English), but bringing it to light like this has really helped validate and further my understanding of him! That being said, Mine most definitely has adopted the American mentality of stressing independence and not relying on others, and it's undoubtedly come as a result of his upbringing. Ergo, analyzing Mine in relation to his connection not just with American philosophy but also giri-ninjo is definitely worthwhile, and from the sounds of it absolutely significant to understanding his character and his motives (it's certainly something I'm already taking notes on for the future)!

Moreover, I've always been a fan of Mine and his ability to acknowledge the inherit need to have companionship, or at the very least his subconscious need for bonds. In that, it's clear Mine's pursuit of independence was a way to protect himself (I might dare to say he lets down his guard fairly easily all things considered, though I won't ignore his caution towards Daigo and Kanda when initially meeting them. Moreover, it's just clear that when he feels betrayed, despite convincing himself he's a lone wolf, he feels that pain significantly- much greater than someone who sincerely believes themselves to be independent should). Just as you've said, Mine's suicide and taking Richardson with him is really a solid and magnificent way to round off his character through the lens of him putting to rest his solitary philosophy. Going further with gameplay interwoven with story telling, the time-consuming Dad Simulator bits of Y3 really do help highlight how much the kids of Morning Glory- and in that case orphans in general- rely on adults like Kiryu to navigate life. And evidently, that experience ties back into Mine and his frustrations with not just people like Kiryu who help others without expecting a reward, but also how the less fortunate are able to receive that help where as Mine wasn't offered that.

On that note, I feel like I remember learning that the 'orphan' bit was an inclusion, but I guess I forgot that detail along the way. Nevertheless, I'm just about to start eating drywall over the translation differences at this point- even if my point isn't moot, I still can't help but feel an anxiety that I'm going to greatly misinterpret something (and I can certainly get back to this point later when it comes to the likes of Jo's in the west). At the very least, it's a better incentive to brush up on my Japanese. I'll take what I can though: I'm glad that what I've said it still valid in some parts!

The case of Masato's something that's always going to intrigue my mind (I owe myself a chance to properly sit down and analyze him). There's so many aspects at play that could have affected how he turned out as an adult, and family is undoubtedly a major factor contributing to that outcome. To expand on that, it's inarguable that Arakawa was doing the most he could for Masato as not only a young, single father who had a complicated relationship with his own parents, but also having to operate as a ruthless yakuza to the rest of Kamurocho meant not only was he busy, but he needed to uphold an image and make sure his son wasn't too involved with that life. In this, it seems apparent that Arakawa's conditions to be a parent weren't exactly ideal, and as a result it's fair to assume he potentially 'under performed' in some aspects due to these circumstances, so to say (we see he keeps himself active in Masato's life when he's an adult, so it's not as though I'm proposing it's a case of neglect. It's unfortunate we really don't get more of the Arakawa Family's family life to better understand their circumstances).

Thank you for your compliments on my comparison post! I didn't want to come off as bothersome, but I'll make sure to tag you in any future posts I make that are inspired by you ^^ Honestly, I thought my post was a bit messy on some parts, but I'm thrilled to hear it was comprehensive- and of course, I've love to hear your input on any points in the future if you ever feel like sharing them!

The topic of RGG spinoffs has been a topic between a friend and I every now and then (though I never would have expected a French Revolution game????), so it's astounding to hear about the various ideas that have been floating around (I would be excited the most for a game about Hanzo though- I remember obsessing over him while I was in middle school for whatever reason lmao)! In any case, spinoffs would be a great way to utilize one-off characters: it might not be mainline or technically canon, but being able to see the characters again is never something I can complain about so long as the game's fun and the story's engaging!

I'll make sure to keep you posted on how I feel about Princess Toyotomi and Hero SP: I have an insatiable need to share everything on my mind, so I'll undoubtedly talk about them and whatever thoughts I have! Again, I have to apologize about spoiling the end like that- I really didn't expect them to go that way either when I first saw it honestly! But I can't say it was a terrible ending- unfortunate, but I wasn't super mad about it.

Now returning to the state of RGG's translations, that is especially weird in that situation in particular when they have a similar line in the same (or about the same, anyway) scene? As you've said, it might have been an unfortunate case of penning in something based off of independent thought, though it's still unfortunate because it did have the potential to alter not just the scene itself, but Arakawa's character as well (and of course, we would have hoped RGG wold improve when it comes to sensitive topics at this point).

And onto a point I've been weirdly excited to get to, the case of Jo and how the west seemed to handle him. Maybe it's because of America's tendency to make marketing more 'aggressive' (my personal favorite case is making Kirby appear angrier in ads? Because rage and cute-pink-puffball makes sense to me), so opposed to a more grey portrayal they went with something more blunt. Though, it's incredibly strange that Jo seemed to receive such a 'particular' treatment when it came to marketing? My only theory is that they just really wanted Jo's 'reveal' in the Coin Locker Baby chapter to be all the more impactful, but it's just messy honestly.

More importantly, the change of his style's name is also really unfortunate to me. As you've said, it strips interesting aspects of his character away, and a major aspect of his character is evidently guilt. I can't fathom trying to construct his character to be violent without reason, it really undermines what makes him so compelling.

Though, I guess if it's anything, from what I've seen this change in presentation has done little to impact people's perception of him (but maybe that's because I haven't really seen anyone else in the west talk about him...)

#long post #fave #snap chats #preemptive apology for how eUgh my response may be #im a little tired but i also didnt want to wait to respond to this- especially when it has points im really interested in #definitely bookmarking this one to look back at for mine #ah im sure i wanted to say some things else but i cant remember them now #one quick note on mine's psyche tho is that I Too found it relatable (and im also SEAsian- funny how things turn out huh lmao)#of course maybe its because /im/ american so im quite literally in the culture #but my family's a little complicated so instead of the people around me i feel on my own because of them if that makes sense #basically im able to understand mine feeling some resentment or shut out from a culture supposedly about togetherness #its hard for me to explain rn ohhh i wish my brain worked at this hour #in any case thank you again for writing in ! as always its incredibly insightful and a great way to get me thinking #but speaking of thinking i guess i should start my morning- ive got to think about childhood psychology later #then im freee....

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