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maggot-monger · 11 months

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lucifer gender symbolism essay masterpost

have you ever gone “huh that’s interesting” about lucifer supernatural appearing as a woman in white a lot of the time? have you ever been watching endverse and gotten A Vibe? have you noticed people referring to lucifer by she/her pronouns for no apparent reason? do you want to spectate while someone online acts deranged about some niche old shit? well do i have the post for you!

this is my thesis on fem!lucifer aka she/her lucifer aka “the devil wears nighties: a supernatural phenomenon” aka whatever else you want to call it. a long fucking essay exploring why i have been so hung up on this concept forever. it won’t be totally comprehensive, but all the sections together are like 13k words long, so it’s uhhh comprehensive enough to be annoying.

the sections are:

mostly non-spn background, context, & caveats

gender in supernatural

the dead nun

women in white

white women

mothers vs fathers

daughters vs sons

jarpad and mark p’s acting styles

sexual connotations of “vessels,” stabbing, and holes

villain gender in supernatural, comparisons

villain gender in supernatural, effects

they are mostly stand-alone, so if you want to skip some parts or skip around, the individual sections should be easy enough to follow.

the full essay is also on ao3 here

notes

my view on spn angels is that they are essentially non-gendered, or gendered in a way that has no resemblance to how humans are gendered. i am not attempting to argue that lucifer IS a woman, or that lucifer is meaningfully feminine. this is all about frames of analysis, that are difficult to avoid due to the non-human characters all being played by human actors who present and are most readily interpreted, typically, in a (binary) gendered way. i don't approach lucifer or any of the other angels as being intrinsically gendered, but as symbolically gendered.

i am focusing on a fem reading of lucifer because the masc reading seems to be more widespread in the fandom. since the more fem interpretation is not the default but is (imo) just as viable, it feels worthwhile to address it directly like this, since it also adds something to how the character comes across/how lucifer reads as a character and an antagonist.

i will sometimes rely on gendered (and sometimes cissexist) symbolism established in spn and modern culture more broadly, and some historical sexist tropes. i have done my best to address these topics with care, but i have sometimes chosen succinctness over thoroughness in being critical of the underlying misogyny and cissexism inherent to some of the symbolism.

there will also be some discussion of other sensitive topics. i have put content warning notes around the major ones so you can skip those sections if you would prefer.

this whole thing has a heavy emphasis on kripke era. it is what it is.

pronoun usage for lucifer is going to fluctuate kind of randomly between he and she. i don’t THINK there are any “It” uses thrown in here, but you never know.

i hope that it is abundantly clear throughout this essay that this is not terf shit, but i'm saying it up front anyway.

#spnluciferweek #lucifer #meta #spn thots #spn

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fandom-hoarder · 1 year

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I'm so sorry for this thought on a Sammy Sunday but...

If demon!Dean had gotten Sam to drink his blood before Cas showed up and saved him, post-demon cure moc!Dean would've totally made Sam demon blood detox in the dungeon 👀👀👀👀

#me.txt #spn thoughts #spn thots #demon!dean #moc!dean #demon blood detox #happy sammy sunday #🙃🙃🙃#sam whump

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wigglebox · 1 year

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Okay Chuck won theory

That means Amara and Jack are still in him right???

Here's what pisses me off about Amara' story

She was happy, she liked her life, she was doing fuck all and LOVING IT

Why in the FUCK did she give up all that in the end??? Why is she "gone" inside Jack?

If that's Chuck inside Jack then Amara knows and she's gonna fight her way out THIS IS MY TRUTH

yes! also sorry for the late response i always ALWAYS forget to circle back on my messages but yes!

and i agree that it seemed to be a little TOO easy to get Amara [in the perspective of Chuck] and Jack would, I hope, still be there. If not, then Jack is most likely in The Empty.

Regardless, the thing walking and talking looking like Jack is not Jack. To me there's just too much evidence pointing to that, and with 15x20 it was kinda easy to also go "well, maybe COVID some how—" but naw fam they put him in The Winchesters and it was WEIRD but like in a good way. And one of those weird things is that if that was Jack, would he not try and find a way to get Amara back out?

And yes it is my UTMOST DESIRE that she would fight her way back out! Idk how, I know it was like, Chuck absorbed her? Eew, but you get what I'm saying — however it is my UTMOST DESIRE for her to like, somehow fight back and fight her way out.

It's all I want lol.

#spnwin thots #kinda #spn thots

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monstersandbrothers · 2 months

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I think the general consensus (and the most boring read tbh🤧) is that Sam is not afraid of dean because he knows Dean would never hurt him. sure. We love that. But allow me to propose. an Alternative. Sam is not afraid of Dean even though Dean might hurt him. im just thinking about demon!Dean chasing Sam through the bunker. or how badly Sam flinches when Dean yells or throws something or breaks something. Sam trusts Dean SO COMPLETELY..but also..in the back of his mind always holds the idea that Dean MIGHT hurt him. Not because he WANTS to but just because..uh…he’s Dean… but Sam still getting right up in his face always because “Big Bad Brother i am not afraid of you. You can do anything to me and I will not be afraid of you.” It adds to the horror of it all imo. “You would NEVER hurt me…..but can we ever know for sure??” much to Think about

#those freak brothers again 🙄#this may or may not be supported by canon #these are just my silly little thots and notions #don’t get mad at me #spn #supernatural #dean winchester #sam winchester #samdean #wincest

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kjosi · 1 year

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#swirly.poll #swirly.txt #having thots #supernatural #spn polls #spn #meg spn #crowley spn #kevin tran #rowena macleod #bobby singer #charlie bradbury #etc etc

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overrated-sheep · 2 months

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ya know i was like one of those people who really like the idea of sam and dean being straight and that they were each other's exception but idk im looking at the season box art and LMAO THEY LOOK SO GAY

#spn #samdean #wincest #im a lil baked rn #but it made me laff #like you thot these guys were straight?? all the money they must spend of hairspray and like 60$ flannel #i mean i guess charlie did give them the infinite money card but they look so clean cut its kinda weird

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sam2hell · 8 months

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Don't mind me, just going insane over Nick Spn

They really said: Let's bring back this poor little Widower from Pinecreek Delaware and make him go INSANE

Let him go apeshit because he lost his Family and Years later his whole identity and sense of self because the devil left him for that other boytoy of hers.

Sure, sure he's also driven by revenge but after he got that, instead of...idk going to become a hermit in the woods or jumping in the ocean, He searched for the Devil because Lucifer is the only one he has left.

Lucifer is Nick's everything.

His God.

Arghhhh

"I don't know who i am if I'm not you"

God fucking dammit i'm-

I'm going to bite a Table or something

How dare this Basic Bitch make me feel this way

#spn #nick spn #devilhusband #spn lucifer #nickifer #pspsps mutuals please validate my thots

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quietwings-fics · 6 months

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with my own blood in my mouth

Rating: Teen And Up Audiences Archive Warning: N/A Fandom: Supernatural Ship: Gen (Lucifer & Michael, Adam & Michael, Michael & Raphael) Additional Tags: Post-Season/Series 06 AU, Raphael Lives (Supernatural), Lucifer's Cage (Supernatural), Escape, Good Older Sibling Michael (Supernatural), Angst, Reunions, Platonic Kissing, Siblings Wordcount: 2033 Summary:

The first crack resounds like thunder. The spell worked, and Raphael took the souls of Purgatory for themselves to open the Cage.

The first crack resounds like thunder.

Michael stirs for the first time in a decade or two, lifting his stiff wings from the floor of the Cage. Adam was talking, but he’s silent now. Michael sweeps his vessel’s soul and body close and hides them beneath his brittle feathers. He watched Death take Sam away and how it destroyed Lucifer to lose him. He won’t let the same happen to Adam. It’s selfish, he knows that, but Adam is all he has.

The second crack is harsh enough on their ears that even Lucifer, despondent and curled in his corner, is forced to acknowledge it. Michael sees him raise his head and peer at the same widening gap that Michael is. The bars cling to each other like suffocating vines, but the metal is being pried apart slowly, stubbornly.

Maybe-

“It isn’t Him,” Lucifer says, and it’s more tired than cruel but still enough that Michael snarls at him. Lucifer barely reacts. His wings twitch and that’s all, as though he’s reached a point where he’s suffered so much that its all banal to him. The idea that Michael could attack Lucifer right now and he wouldn’t fight back is so disturbing that Michael flinches away. He turns his gaze back to the widening break in the bars.

It’ll be large enough soon for Michael to slip through. It’ll hurt, the metal tearing into his sides, slicking the bars with blood as he drags himself out, but there’s the cost of freedom. He wraps Adam up securely in the depths of his grace where he won’t be harmed.

He shouldn’t look back at Lucifer. This is where his brother belongs.

But he does. He looks back.

Lucifer has curled back up, ignoring the cracks again. He’s in a worse state than Michael, the brief freedom of the Apocalypse doing him no favors, the early days of fury that he and Michael directed at each other before they realized there was no point to it still scarred across his grace.

Michael, Adam says, come on, the hole’s big enough. Let’s go. Michael takes a step towards the gap, but his gaze is still on Lucifer. He’s not coming. He won’t even look. Michael! Adam isn’t prone to panic, but Michael understands its appearance now. Adam’s hopelessness is a different beast than Lucifer’s, more spiteful, more alive, compared the the way his brother allowed himself to decay in this new — what they’d both thought of as his final — imprisonment. Adam wants out with every fiber of his being, vibrating at a pitch that rivals Michael’s own true voice out of sheer willpower.

Michael touches the broken bars.

He looks back again.

It’s not what Lucifer deserves. Michael was supposed to grant him the dignity of death. If he can’t do that…

Adam tries to wriggle out of his grasp to leap through the bars himself when Michael turns away from them, as if he could survive on his own as a soul crawling out of the depths of Hell. Michael holds on tighter to him, humming reassurance. He will free Adam, but he owes Lucifer this, too. Whether Lucifer wants it or not doesn’t matter.

He goes still as Michael approaches. A very old part of Michael, one he’s well-versed in ignoring, pangs with heartache. All his brother expects of him is violence.

Michael bends down and grabs onto Lucifer. He won’t budge at first, but Michael flaps his wings furiously and drags him across the Cage. Lucifer twists in his grip, hissing and spitting at him like an animal. Michael doesn’t let go, though his brother’s grace burns his grip, biting through him with sheer cold. He pulls them both to the hole in the Cage. Lucifer screeches at him, a horrible wordless cry that is every grievance he has with Michael rolled into one, all of the anger and betrayal and heartbreak. It hurts, and Michael still won’t let him go. He climbs out of the Cage with Lucifer fighting him every step on the way. He claws into Michael’s grace, and all Michael does is harden the layers around Adam to keep him safe from Lucifer’s senseless struggle.

The Cage groans as though it wants to collapse in on them as they crawl out. It threatens to, wicked juts of broken metal pointed at their throats, straining against whatever power is holding them open. Michael can feel it in the air. He hates that Lucifer is right. God has still abandoned them. This is something else, something that sets Michael’s teeth on edge. Lucifer can recognize it too. He freezes in Michael’s grasp, breathing in the power that surrounds them.

Michael pulls them out. He lifts Lucifer higher, carrying his dead weight along with Adam’s soul. Halfway up their climb, Lucifer starts to struggle again. He tears into Michael, and Michael-

Michael drops him. He falls. And this time, Michael does not look back.

They don’t make it all the way out of Hell. Michael’s following the path of that power now. Whatever it is will need to be dealt with sooner or later, and right now, he just wants to hurt someone. Every ungrateful wound Lucifer left on him aches.

He bursts into their presence. He lacks the radiance he carried before the Cage. All of him is tarnished with ash and neglect, but if Lucifer made a fearsome sight as the devil, than Michael’s sure he can be just as terrifying. He spreads his wings wide, the fire of his grace at his fingertips to destroy whoever was strong enough to break the Cage before they dared to kill him first.

He falters.

The only one there is Raphael.

Michael’s wings fold. His grace flickers back to calm again. He’s barely stepped forward before he’s racing to Raphael’s side and wrapping his brother up in his wings. It strikes him that he can’t remember the last time he did that, not even before his stint in the Cage. They still fit in his arms like the first time he held their grace, his baby brother, the only one Michael has left, the one who came to set him free. Raphael is burning hot like a hundred suns, and Michael pulls them closer. They cauterize the lingering injuries of Lucifer’s tantrum.

“What have you done, Raphael?” Michael says. He can’t be angry with them, whatever it is. There’s a tremor in their wings, an alien pulse within their grace.

“I had no other choice,” they whisper. It’s unlike them. For all of their existence, Raphael has been a thunderstorm. If they inherited anything from their Father, it was his voice. “You were gone, Michael.” Raphael clings tightly to him. “You were gone,” they repeat, the same lost and desperate tone that they had used when they looked up at Michael, standing at the foot of his Father’s throne with no idea what to do about the void He’d left, and asked when God was coming back.

Michael cups their face in his hands. There’s something wrong inside of them. He feels it eating them, chewing on their grace and laying eggs where the holes are to make more of itself. Raphael is keeping a tight hold on whatever it is, but it's burning through them and their vessel despite that, an inevitable unraveling down to their cells, discord tossing their form into chaotic waves that will unmake Raphael as he knows them. Angry lumps rise under their vessel’s skin, prying at it like they might tear free and ooze into the world.

Black blood drips from the inner corner of their right eye. It rolls down to their lip, staining them as it goes. It bubbles like it's still alive. Raphael tries to duck their head, but Michael doesn’t let them, staring in horror as another corrupted tear leaks from their other eye, dragging down along their cheek. Michael wipes his finger through the first one, only succeeding in smearing the mess further over their face.

“I thought I could control them,” Raphael says. “I did. Long enough to free you.” They shake, and softer than anything else they’ve said to him yet, “Michael, it hurts.” Michael pulls them close again. The leviathans writhe inside their grace, hungry. They can smell Michael. If they know he’s afraid, then so will Raphael, and Michael won’t let them believe he can’t save them.

Adam, he says. He touches his vessel’s soul gently, apologetic. Adam’s been quiet for his reunion with Raphael, half out of respect and half out of curiosity. He’s never seen Michael acting as a brother, not really. Memories didn’t count, and his interactions with Lucifer… But with Raphael, Michael has to be their older brother, and he has to protect them right now. He abandoned them once already.

I get it, Adam says. Big slimy monsters with too many teeth. You don’t do this, and they’ll get out and eat everybody. Michael’s grace half-heartedly thrums with humor. Really, he hadn’t even been thinking about the rest of the world.

I will need you to be very quiet, he tells Adam.

Not good at that.

Adam.

Okay. Don’t let them eat me. Michael redoubles his defenses around Adam’s soul. His body… Michael will have to fix that later. He turns his attention back to Raphael. They cough up leviathan’s blood onto his chest. Burns ring around their throat, stretching further down their back, reaching for their wings.

“Let me take some,” Michael says. “We can bear it together, Raphael.” They don’t want to, and he can tell. They curl in on themselves, grace compressing around the souls within them, the disgusting monsters gnawing on their insides. Michael turns their gaze up to face his again and says it more firmly now, “Raphael, give them to me.”

He wonders how long ago he made Raphael believe they had to carry the world and more on their own. Did he even notice? Could he have?

He’ll take it now. It’s not their burden to carry alone. He won’t let them burn out.

He won’t lose them as they lost him.

Michael wipes away more blood from their face. Their lips are covered in it, but that doesn’t stop him from leaning down to press their mouths together. The awful taste is only a precursor as the control Raphael has kept over the souls inside them fails. Michael holds them tightly as the flood comes, power racing from their vessel into his, and with it, the dark and hungry denizens of Purgatory. Raphael convulses as some souls tear themselves out to burrow into Michael instead, but they keep their pain silent, only betrayed by the way their nails dig into the flesh of Michael’s vessel. His throat burns as he swallows down souls. Half of his focus remains on Adam, hiding him and keeping him safe. The leviathans can’t seem to smell his soul out from the countless others struggling inside Michael.

Raphael collapses into him, their mouths sliding apart. Michael takes a deep breath and feels the leviathans everywhere, in his lungs, in his stomach, in his blood. He has no idea how Raphael managed to survive this long and wrangle them to tear the Cage open.

He never should have put them in a position where they had to. Guilt isn't something Michael has let himself feel in a very long time, but it spreads through his grace in the wake of Purgatory’s souls as Raphael leans into him.

“I’m going to make this right, little brother,” Michael tells them. He presses a kiss to Raphael’s temple. He doesn’t know if they can fly, or even stand, but he doesn’t ask that of them. They still hold half the souls, fighting to keep them in check. Michael will do the rest. It’s his responsibility. He gathers them up in his arms. They still fit. They don’t struggle against him, even though Michael will have to take them deeper into Hell, down into Purgatory.

Michael stands at the edge of a drop. The Cage is so far below that the darkness hides it from Michael’s view. He clutches Raphael tight, and he falls.

(Enjoyed it? Any interaction is welcomed. You can even support me on Ko-Fi <;3)

#SPNArchangelWeek #fanfiction #1001-5000 #teen and up audiences #spn #genfic #adam & michael #lucifer & michael #michael & raphael #michael spn #lucifer spn #adam milligan #raphael spn #cage thots

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conditionalformatting · 4 months

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had a dream that they were making castel x harry potter merch (plushies) and misha said that all proceeds were going to lgbt organisations and so ppl on here got into extreme fights about whether it was ok to buy them 😭

#why did i dream this... havent thot of spn or hp for so long....#there was doxxing involved and ppl got in irl fistfights btw

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gift-of-prophecy · 1 year

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thinking about filming a sex tape with dean…,., the way he would play to camera and it would become something competitive with himself to out perform the pornstars he likes…,.. the way he would literally be so obsessed w it (and you in general) that he would watch it in public, uncaring, moans just pouring out of the speakers like some perverted symphony..,., woof

#dean winchester #dean winchester x reader #dean winchester drabble #dean winchester headcanon #smut #supernatural #spn #found this in the drafts #what feral beast emerged from me #apollo’s thots #dean winchester x y/n #dean winchester x you #drabble #minors dni

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maggot-monger · 1 year

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if you throw out everything non-human about supernatural and just look at it as a "family is hell" show then michael represents dean fully succumbing to what his father wants from him even past the point of reason, and lucifer represents sam leaving the family in a way that causes a major rift that feels like the end of the world. the true vessel plotline is about a lot of things including sam struggling with loss of autonomy, but there are at least a few ways of viewing it where it's really about the consequences of him enforcing his own autonomy, accepting a villain role, and alienation/condemnation from his family in exchange for not doing as he's told anymore

#spn thots #sam and lucifer #family is hell but loss of family is also hell

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fandom-hoarder · 10 months

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Lucifer tries out taking on Jessica's face again in the cage, but gives it up quickly when he realizes Sam thinks Jess deserves every inch of flesh she takes out of him, for letting her die on the ceiling in blood and flames.

#spn thots #sam and lucifer #sam and jess

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wigglebox · 1 year

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Thoughts on the SPNWIN Finale

Okay so I’m gonna divide this into two parts: Implications for the future of where this show will go, and then implications for a potential continuation.

**This is me writing after only seeing the episode once and then popping through here and there to try and remember things, but I may mis-remember or misinterpret but I wanna get these first thoughts out of the way!**

First off, just to quickly summarize my thoughts at the top: I really loved it.

They had a hard hand dealt with this show, which is, only 13 episodes and no promise of a season 2. Because of that, they had to write it in a way that both closed this season but kept the door cracked open for more season. It’s a very very hard balance to do, but I think they still did it.

To me, I have a lot of questions, but I LIKE having questions because that draws me back for season 2. And, if done properly, it can also lure people into the continuation.

Implications for the future of SPNWIN

This episode was a whirlwind so I apologize if I mis-remember anything!

I think the key thing that I took away from this in terms of future potential was the journal. They have Dean’s journal in the sense that Dean and Sam had John’s journal.

John and Mary take off in the end but I have no doubt in my mind Lata, Carlos, and Ada will all come back and play a part some how as well.

Which, by the way, the fact that this Carlos was THEE Carlos that was referenced in a Robbie episode a million years ago is so amazing, idk why. Robbie you madman!

But, now we more or less have the confirmation that this isn’t truly our world, however we are going to be sticking with these characters in the future. Therefore, I don’t know if that means they’ll be universe hopping too, I don’t know if it means they’ll uncover more mysteries from Dean’s journal? I think that’s likely. I also think that will be fun.

I also ALSO think that will provide more world building for the continuation, like this season already did.

There is the obvious issue in the room of that being there were only 13 episodes and this may have felt more like a mid-season finale rather than a finale, however not being promised a season 2 has had to have been thee most annoying thing to write around.

But, for a first season, it set up some solid base foundation work for them to continue to explore more stories while also not screwing around with canon.

There are still questions I want answered and who knows when or if they’ll ever be answered. The biggest one, however, is what on earth is in that journal?

I have more questions but I need to rewatch the show to form them so they’ll be in a follow up post most likely.

Another question I have is: Was that really Dean from start to finish? The hair is the biggest thing for me bc J finished filming Big Sky and there was no reason not to cut it, or use a wig of some kind [lol]. But also in general it felt different a little bit. Like it’s still him but also it didn’t feel like him from the pilot and from the photos we were seeing. But it really may well be him all along! I imagine that’s part of the mystery.

I don’t think we’ll see him again, or if we do, it’s not going to be the same version. I think he served as a launching point. Several friends have made this point already but basically he laid the foundation for all this multi-verse stuff and now the kiddos are on their own and there’s a lottttt to explore.

Again, I have to rewatch in order to fully form my thoughts on the future for the show.

My question is gonna be basically are they going to explore different universes? And, how, if Chuck kinda offed all of them? But I’m okay with my questions for now because I like to go with the flow of the show. I don’t want to figure everything out right now.

Implications for a SPN Continuation

I’ll talk about this first since I have some frens who were disappointed that 1) Cas wasn’t with Jack and Bobby and 2) Cas wasn’t mentioned.

If you’re new around here, then I’ll cut to the chase now: I am a full on “Cas Is Not In Heaven” believer. There are several reasons why. I am also a “Chuck Won” and “Jack is Chuck” believer. Also several reasons why.

I don’t believe Cas is in Heaven because they never showed him getting there. “Well Jack got him out of The Empty,” is one of those things that I’ll believe it when I see it, because otherwise, it’s too shady for me. Cas was last taken, alive, to an Empty where everything else was awake and alive and taken on behalf of a deal, not because he died. The Empty has wanted Cas for a while, and has been pissed that he’s gotten out. Cas is a PRIZE for The Empty so I don’t really see it giving up Cas any time soon for any particular reason.

Especially if that reason is Jack.

I don’t believe The Empty likes Jack either, especially after their last interaction being so bad (Jack exploding in The Empty, waking everything up). I don’t feel like The Empty is willing to do any favors for him.

God isn’t supposed to be able to influence The Empty but I think, since Lilith and Lucifer were brought down, that Chuck and The Empty had an arrangement. And from 15x18 to 15x20 I had literally no reason to believe that Cas, a threat to Chuck, would have been let go for any reason, even if Jack was “God” now.

It would have been sloppy story telling, in my opinon, if they tried to explain how Cas got into Heaven in such a short amount of time, and would have extremely taken away from the emotional magnitude of 15x18.

And that’s how I felt with 1x13 of The Winchesters.

If we had seen Cas I would have been upset, I think. Because again, there’s no explanation for him being there. If it wasn’t going to be a *wink wink nudge nudge* thing like “We’ll explain it in the continuation” then I didn’t want it.

The reason why I feel so passionate about this is beacuse of the Chuck Won theory. And because of that theory, and how Cas’ role evolved over time in Supernatural, I don’t believe Chuck can “recreate” Cas. Because Cas exists outside of Chuck’s narrative, and isn’t beholdened to Chuck, that means Chuck can’t reproduce Cas. It’s just never going to happen.

And I feel strongly about Chuck not being able to do that SPECIFICALLY because when all is said and done, I don’t EVER want Dean to look at Cas and wonder if he’s real or not (throwback to 15x02 anyone?).

Therefore, I did not want to see Cas in The Winchesters except for very very very specific ways that I knew deep down wouldn’t happen because this isn’t the show for that.

And I’m sorry I wish I could go along with the Cas in Heaven memes because they do make me laugh — but also the thought of him being there with no explanation and still not showing up makes me more sad than not.

And that’s another thing—

With 15x20, and no Cas, there had been conspiracy after conspiracy for the last two and a half years as to why, everywhere between network censorship to Misha secretly filming and then them not showing anything. I’m personally more inclined to believe a mixture of: Censorship (Dean can’t reciprocate so what’s the point) and a deliberate choice on behalf of Dabb. But that’s for a different post because this is already very very long.

But, him not being in the finale — while it fed into the Chuck Won theory — it also didn’t have enough stability to truly land on one theory or another because COVID restrictions were also blamed (in whatever manner people saw fit to blame it).

However, NOW — with Cas NOT showing up next to Jack and Bobby — even tho in 15x20 Bobby said that Cas helped Jack — was very LOUD to me.

So what does that imply, to me?

1) No Cas until they have the time and space to put the story and emotions into it that it deserves. AKA — since I’m a Cas Is In The Empty believer — A rescue, by Dean. Even Jackles at JIB11 said that he’d want to explore that. Both of them have expressed an interest in exploring a follow up to 15x18. They can’t do that in the season finale of a spin off show that hadn’t mentioned them virtually at all (apart from parallels) all season.

2) No Cas because Cas isn’t there. I’ll get into my “Jack isn’t Jack” thing in a second, but because there was also this choice not to have Cas there — once is a mistake, but twice? Now it’s starting something. Especially since this time, they DID have Jack there. It’s like they’re showing us a Cas-shaped puzzle piece missing. The piece may be missing but you can clearly see the hole and know what’s supposed to be there (kinda like Dean’s reciprocation!).

To me these are interesting storytelling tactics. And that’s what this is, storytelling.

I feel like maybe we lost the plot a little bit, we being The Fandom, in terms of long-term storytelling efforts.

Cas being in The Empty still really does open up a TON of plot ideas for a continuation. Is it sad he’s not with Dean right now? Absolutely. But I’d rather have them apart than have a flimsy, unexplained reunion just to have a reunion.

“They didn’t even mention Cas,” and yeah, maybe they could have, but as friends in Discord servers have pointed out, that also locks them into a story that they may not be able to tell so it’s better to keep it like how it was in 15x20 where Dean never spoke his name. That is, it adds to the uncanny valley of it all.

Jack isn’t Jack

Look at this lovely post. This reminds me of the first time I was ever exposed to Chuck Won, Chuck is Jack theory way back in ... I want to say December 2020. Someone had compared Jack’s clothes to Chuck’s, and here we are again.

Also these tags from @clarkenting

Jack didn’t feel like Jack. He hasn’t felt like Jack since 15x19.

I already freak out and ramble a lot about Chuck Won when it comes to Becky’s Notes in 15x04 about “no one even mentions Cas” and the line about rock music and the like. But another note she made was regarding the villain’s monologue at the end and how it kinda sucked. Jack had a monologue at the end. Jenny, in 15x20, said 8 words.

So Jack post-15x19 has always been suspicious to me! And last night was no different, especially since it’s the most Chuck Like he’s looked.

Also, another thing that got me, was the reference to Carry On (the Kansas song). It felt super duper pointed and not just an Easter Egg but like — hey this IMMEDIATELY reminds me of 15x20 and how Dean was like, weirdly, “I love this song!” a little too out of character in heaven as he began to drive off.

Dean’s favorite band isn’t Kansas, it’s Led Zeppelin.

Also, the reference felt like a fourth wall break, something that Chuck would do.

So no, I don’t believe that Jack was Jack last night. I’m sure if I go through the dialogue, which I plan to do lol, I’ll find even more reason to believe that.

Another thing that confused me was Bobby being there. Dean drove off, alone, and was continuously shown alone, throughout his drive. But BOBBY was there last night? Confused I am. But in the good way.

We know now that Baby can hope planes of existence so I really really hope she can hop into The Empty.

I’m someone who believes that Dean’s “Heaven” is in reality just The Empty. Or, as sometimes my friends will hear me call it, Chuck’s toy shelf. I am also someone who believes we DID see Chuck in 1x08 as part of the band and it wasn’t just a Rob cameo. Rob’s character has too much implication to just casually toss him in as a background character.

This is super duper long, and I apologize but also not really!

Some final thoughts (for now) (any follow up posts I make also will be under #spnwin thots):

I think this finale set up things for both a season 2 AND a continuation. I’ve been a contination believer since literally the SPN finale finished airing. At first it was a way to cope, but then it became a full blown belief for me the more and more first Jackles talked about it, and then the rest of the cast.

I’m really excited for season 2 of The Winchesters should it happen. I really hope it does. I personally believe it has a high chance of migrating to HBO Max for a home — and if that’s the case that’ll be awesome bc I also believe that’s where a continuation will go.

All of our favorites of the season will be in season 2 as well. We will see Carlos, Lata, Ada, Millie, Betty, Tony, etc. back. There are still questions about their characters too that we need answering. I’m still suspicious of Betty!

I liked that they contained this just enough for the finale just in case they don’t get a season 2, but still left dangling plot threads to catch for a season 2 (which felt very season 15 of SPN to me. In my eyes, they really did leave some things dangling for a continuation.)

What kind of potential world building will we get now that we know space and time is but an illusion, lol. I like the prequel being used to expand worlds more and expand the canon more, especially when it comes to hopping planes of existence.

Is The Empty really the big villain, or Chuck? I personally think so, and I personally think that this will help funnel some stuff into a continuation.

“What about Destiel” yes what about Destiel? That’s a continuation problem but one that I know Jackles and Dee and whoever else will be involved will ultimately tackle as well. I may have more faith and optimism than others, but that’s because I know from past experiences from SPN that I won’t be burned no matter what happens — so if you need me to clown for you, I can!

What about the Akrida? Do they just stop at this place? Why this particular storyline? What’s going on? We already have alternates to our own timeline that is the Akrida did not finish off our Men of Letters, Baby got into John’s hands via a car dealership (well, according to Chuck anyway), John didn’t know about hunting in our world, etc etc.

So what else is different? Will they see OUR world? Who is dead, who is alive? Is Chuck gonna send them to other places too?

Only time will tell I guess!

Time to light those manifestation candles for season 2 and a continuation!

#long post #very long post i'm so so SO. fucking sorry #spn #spnwin #spnwin spoilers #spnwin thots #spnwin finale #i wrote this all in a frenzy and before i could grab starbucks #and i'm running on 3 hours of sleep #so i apologize if i missed anything #again anything additional i wanna talk about will be under spnwin thots #walejaflwkejfw #time to go on areblog spree

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