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feanorianethicsdepartment · 3 years

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Alright, I read your recent post and need to know - what is your interpretation of Maglor’s relationship with the twins?

askjdhslkjag my biggest self-inflicted problem in this fandom is that my take on maglor, elrond, and elros' relationship is so intensely detailed and specific i am forever tormented by none of the fic i read ever quite getting it right (from my perspective; i’ve read plenty of fic that presents a good interpretation on their own terms, it’s just never mine.) it’s simultaneously way darker than the fluffy kidnap dads stuff and nowhere near as black-and-white awful as the anti-fëanorian crowd likes to paint it, it’s messy and complicated and surrounded by darkness, and yet there’s also a sincere connection within it which mostly serves to make all those complications worse. angry teenage elrond is angry for a great many reasons, and the circumstances around him being raised by kinslayers account for at least half of them. there’s lots of complexity here, and i don’t see it in fic nearly as often as i’d like

(warning: the post... feathers? i already have an internet friend called faeiri this could be awkward - anyway, the post she’s talking about includes the line ‘everyone is wrong about kidnap dads except me.’ this post follows on from that in being as much a commentary about why various popular interpretations of both how the kidnapdoption went and the way people subsequently characterise the twins just don’t work for me as it is a setting out of my own ideas. i’m not really interested in getting into discourse here, i’m just trying to get my thoughts down. i’ve read fic with these interpretations before that i’ve liked, even, don’t take this as a Condemnation, aight? also this turned out long as hell, so i’m putting it under a cut)

i can never buy entirely fluffy depictions of kidnap dads

which isn’t to say i don’t read them! sometimes all i want is something sweet, for these kids to get to be happy for once. it’s not like i think their time with the fëanorians was completely devoid of laughter

it’s just. the pet names, the special days out, the home-cooked meals, it can get so treacly it stops feeling like the characters they are in the situation they’re in and turns into Generic Found Family #272

it soaks out all the complexity - which is the thing i am here for - and acts like oh, these kids were never in any danger, they were perfectly happy being abducted by the people who murdered everyone they knew, there’s nothing possibly questionable about this relationship at all

and... yeah. that’s not the characters i know. that’s not the context i know they belong to

i just can’t forget the circumstances that led them to meet

rivers of blood, the air filled with screams, a town ablaze, a woman choosing to die. every interaction the three of them have is going to proceed from that nightmare

(sidenote: i tend to hold it was maglor that raised the twins, with maedhros looming ominously in the background not really getting involved. it’s mostly personal preference, i’ve been in and out of the fandom since before this kidnap dads thing blew up and when i joined that was a perfectly standard reading)

(also the cave thing was a dumb idea, old man, if only because it implies beleriand had streams safe enough for children to play in at that point. the way it separates the twins from the third kinslaying is also something i don’t particularly vibe with)

probably my least favourite angle i’ve seen on the situation (edged out only by ‘maglor was actively abusive towards the twins’ which no no no no no no no no NO) is the idea that maglor (and/or maedhros, append as necessary) took the twins specifically to raise them

like, i get where it’s coming from, but it makes maglor come off as really creepy

(i have read fics where it is indeed played off as really creepy, but that’s not a maglor i have any interest in reading about)

(’mags 100% bad’ is just as facile a take to me as ‘mags 100% good’)

even if you’re saying maglor took them in because they had no one left to take care of them - i highly doubt they were the only children the fëanorians orphaned at sirion. idk, it always makes maglor seem much less sympathetic than i think it’s meant to

i prefer to think of it as more... organic? something that evolved, not something that was preordained. them growing closer gradually, the twins finding an adult who might maybe be on their side, maglor becoming invested in them almost by accident

and then the twins are so comfortable with the second scariest monster in amon ereb they frequently sass him off and maglor’s gotten so used to not hurting them he’s not even thinking about it any more. no one’s quite sure how it happened, but they’ve made a Connection

‘wait aren’t they a murderous warlord of questionable mental stability and a pair of terrified small children who’ve lost everyone they ever knew? isn’t that kinda fucked up?’ yup! that’s the point! complexity!

another idea i don’t like is the idea that maglor was an objectively better parent to the twins than eärendil or elwing

other people have talked about this already, i won’t rehash the whole thing. i will say that while i don’t think elwing was a perfect parent - someone so young, in such a horrible situation, i wouldn’t blame her for screwing up - i do think she (and eärendil) did the best by them they possibly could

this is one of the few things they have in common with maglor

something i come across now and again is the idea that sure, elwing and eärendil weren’t abusive or horrible or anything, but they were a couple of basically-teenagers with so many other responsibilities, there was only so much they could do. maglor, on the other hand, is an experienced adult who could take much better care of the twins

and...

first off, it’s not like mags doesn’t have a job. he’s a warlord, he has a fortress to help run, military shit to handle, lots of other stuff that needs to get done to stop everyone from starving or getting eaten by orcs. i feel like sirion had enough of a government there was plenty of opportunity for elwing to take days off and play with her kids, but in the fëanorian camp nobody really has the time to chase after a couple of toddlers, least of all one of the last points on the command network. they just don’t have the people any more

(seriously, the twins getting a formal education with tutors and classes and shit is a weirdly specific pet peeve of mine. this is a band of renegades, not a royal household; if there’s anyone left with those kinds of skills they almost certainly have more important things to do)

more than that, though - well, a quick glance through my late stage fëanorians tag should tell you a lot about what i think maglor’s mental state is like at this point. he is so accustomed to violence death means nothing to him, he’s lost most of his capacity for genuinely positive emotion to an endless century of defeat and despair, he hates everything in the universe, especially himself, he’s only able to keep functioning through a truly astounding amount of denial, and he covers it all up with a layer of snark and feigned apathy, which he defends aggressively because he’s subconsciously realised that if it breaks he’ll have absolutely nothing left

(maedhros, for the record, is... i’d say more stable, but at a lower point. maglor may interact with the world mostly through cold stares and mocking laughter, but at least his mind is firmly rooted in the present)

(on the other hand, at least maedhros lets himself be aware of what they are and where their road will lead)

which... this doesn’t mean maglor doesn’t try to be kind to the twins, or rein in his worst impulses around them

there’s just so little of him left but the weapon

he stalks through the halls like a portent of death and gets into hours-long screaming matches with maedhros and has definitely killed people in front of the twins

not even as, like, a deliberate attempt to scare them, but because when you solve most of your problems by stabbing them it’s pretty much a given that people who spend a lot of time around you are going to see you do it at least once

and sometimes, he curls up in an empty hallway, and weeps

... suffice it to say i don’t think elwing’s the more preoccupied, or the less mentally ill, parent here

just. in general, the fëanorians aren’t cackling boogeymen, but they’re not particularly nice either

no one has the energy left for that. not these isolated and weary soldiers at the end of a long losing war and the beginning of the end of the world. they don’t really bother to guard the kids against them escaping. where else are they going to go?

the sheer despair that must have been in the fëanorian camp after sirion, the knowledge that the cause cannot be fulfilled, that they are utterly forsaken, that they’re really just waiting to die -

it can’t have been a happy place to grow up in, under the shadow of loss and grief and deeds unrepentable, and the slow march of inevitable defeat

they would have had a better childhood if they stayed in sirion, raised by people who knew how to hope

but that isn’t the childhood they had. and despite everything i’ve said, i don’t think that childhood was an entirely awful one

yeah, see, this is where the other side of my self-inflicted fandom catch-22 comes in. just as much of the pro-kidnap dads stuff comes off as overly saccharine and simplified to me, i find much of the anti-kidnap dads stuff equally simplistic in the opposite direction

the idea that maglor and the fëanorians never meant anything to elros and elrond, that they had no effect on the people they became at all, that it was just a horrible thing that happened when they were children, easily thrown in the rear-view mirror...

that’s even more impossible to me than the idea that life with the fëanorians was 100% fluffy and nice

like, i’ve seen the take that elros and elrond hated the fëanorians from start to finish. they were perfect little sindarin princes, loyal to their people and the memory of doriath, spurning every scrap of kindness offered to them and knowing just what to say to twist the knife into the kinslayers’ wounds

... dude. they were six. hell, given their peredhelness, mentally they could easily have been younger

what six year old has a firm grasp of their ethnic identity? what six year old is fully aware of their place in history? what six year old would understand the politics that led to their situation?

don’t get me wrong, i can see hatred in there. but something else that doesn’t get acknowledged alongside it often enough is the fear

some of the stuff i’ve read feels like it gives the kids too much power in the situation. they’re perfectly happy to talk back to and belittle the people who burned down their hometown and killed everyone they ever knew, like miniature adults who don’t feel threatened at all

and, like, six. i can see them going for insults as a defensive measure, but it is defensive. it’s covering up fear, not coming from secure disdain

(and a lot of those insults sound, again, like things an adult who’s already familiar with the fëanorians would say, not a scared child who’s lost almost everything. why would a six year old raised by sindar and gondolindrim know what the noldolantë is, let alone what it means to maglor?)

(... i’m just ranting about this one fic that’s been ruffling my feathers for five years straight now, aren’t i)

i mean, i write elrond as the world’s angriest teenager, who snipes at maglor pretty much constantly, but the thing about angry teenage elrond is that he’s angry teenage elrond

he’s spent long enough with the fëanorians he has a pretty secure position within the camp, and he knows that maglor won’t hurt him from a decade and change of maglor not, in fact, hurting him

but as a small and terrified child abducted by the monsters his mother had nightmares about? he fluctuated wildly between ‘randomly guessing at things to say that wouldn’t get him killed’ ‘screaming at maglor to go away in words rarely more complicated than that’ 'desperately trying not to do or say anything in the hopes of not being noticed’ and ‘hiding’

(and i don’t think the twins were never in any danger from the fëanorians, either. quite besides the point that before they started orbiting maglor nobody was really sure what to do with them... well, they wouldn’t be the first children of thingol’s line the minions took revenge on)

(fortunately for them, maglor did, in fact, take them under his wing. by this point even their own followers are shit scared of the last two sons of fëanor, nobody’s going to mess with their stuff and risk getting mauled. tactically, it was a pretty good decision for a couple of toddlers)

more to the point, i feel like a child that young, in a situation that horrible, wouldn’t reject any kindness they were offered, any soothing touch in a universe of terror

in a world full of big scary monsters, the best way to survive is to get the biggest scariest monster possible to protect you. that’s how elros rationalises it when they’re, like, eight, mentally, but at the time they were just latching on to the only person around them who seemed to care about them

that’s how it started, on their end. two very young very scared children lost in a neverending nightmare clinging tightly to the lone outstretched pair of hands

as for maglor...

i’ve called mags evil before, but i see that as more of a... technical term? he is evil because he did the murder, he remains evil because he won’t stop doing the murder. hot take: murder bad

but that doesn’t make him, like, a moustache-twirling saturday morning cartoon villain. he is deeply unhappy with the position he’s in and the person he’s become, and he’s always trying not to take that final step over the edge

it’s not that i can’t see a maglor who is abusive or manipulative or who sees the twins more as objects than people. it’s just that that characterisation is one i am profoundly uninterested in. i do occasionally read fic with it, but it never enters my own headcanons

horrible people can do good things!! kinslayers can do good things!! the fallen are capable of humanity!! people can do both good and evil things at the same time, because people are complicated!! maglor is not psychologically incapable of actually taking pity on these kids!!!!

it’s... again, complexity. the fëanorians straddle the line between black and white, which is a lot less sharp in the legendarium than it’s sometimes characterised as. it’s what draws me to their characters so much, why i have so many stupid headcanons about them. pretending they fall firmly on either side of the line is my real fandom pet peeve

and, like, this moment? this sincere connection between a bloodstained warlord and two children who will grow up to be great and kind in equal measure? i may not entirely like the direction the fandom’s taken it recently, but that beat, that relationship, it still gets me

so no, i don’t think elrond and elros’ years with the fëanorians were an endless cavalcade of abuse and misery. i think there was love there, despite the darkness all around them

an old, tired monster, and the two tiny children it protects

maglor never hurts the twins, not ever, not once. his claws are sharp and his fangs are keen, if he so much as swatted them he’d rip them in half. instead he folds down the razor edges of his being, interacting with them ever so carefully. he has nightmares of suddenly tearing into their skin

seriously, the power differential between them is so great, maglor so much as raising his voice would break any trust they have in this horribly dangerous creature. fics where he does corporal punishment always get the side-eye from me

the mood of their relationship is... i find it hard to put into words. melancholy, maybe, like a sunny afternoon a few days before the end of the world. three people who’ve lost so much finding what respite they can in each other as the world slowly crumbles around them

there are times when it feels like the three of them exist in a world of their own, marked out by the edges of the firelight. maglor telling stories of the stars, elros giving relaxed irreverent commentary, elrond getting a few moments to just be, all their troubles kept at bay

they are the last two lights in a world sunk into darkness, the last two living beings he does not on some level hate. he will tear his own heart out before he sees them in pain

he teaches them to ride, he teaches them to read, he gives them everything he still has left. the twins should never have been in this situation, maglor probably isn’t entirely fit to take care of them, but it is what it is, and they take what love they can

(maglor depends on the twins emotionally a bit more than any adult should rely on any child. he’s still very much the caretaker in their relationship, but that relationship is the only one he has left that’s not stained by a century of rage and grief. he’s obsessed with them, maedhros tells him frequently. maglor’s standard response to this is to try to gouge maedhros’ eyes out)

(that particular darker side to their relationship, where maglor’s attachment to the twins turns into a desperate possessiveness - that’s not something i think i’ve ever seen in fic. which is a shame, it feels much closer to my own characterisation than the standard ways this relationship gets maleficised. darker, in a different way than usual. horribly compelling in its plausibility)

however you want to read it, i don’t think you can deny this is a relationship that defines elrond and elros’ childhood. they were raised in the woods by a pack of kinslayers, the text is quite clear on this

but i’ve seen a lot of talk about how elros and elrond are only sirion’s children. they are completely 100% sindarin, they love and forgive eärendil and elwing thoroughly and without question, they identify with doriath over - even gondolin, let alone tirion. the fëanorians - the people who raised them - had zero effect on the people they grew into and the selves they created

and that, more than anything else, i find utterly unbelievable

look, i get what this is a reaction to. a lot of the kidnap dads stuff paints the fëanorians as elrond and elros’ ‘real’ family, and i’ve already talked about what i think of the idea that maglor-and-possibly-also-maedhros were better parents than eärendil and elwing. i think it’s reductive and overly optimistic and just a little too neat

but to say instead that elrond and elros held no great love in their hearts for maglor, no lingering affinity with the fëanorians, no influence on their identity from the people they grew up around, none at all? that after it happened they just left it behind and resumed being the same people they were in sirion?

that strikes me as just as much an oversimplification. it sands down all the potential rough edges of their identity, all that inconvenient complexity that stops them from fitting into any well-defined box, and replaces it with a nice safe simple self-conception i find just as flat and boring as declaring them 100% fëanorian

we can quibble over who they call ‘father’ (i personally find that whole debate kinda petty) but denying that it was actually maglor who was the closest thing they knew to a parent for most of their childhoods, and that that would, in fact, affect the way they thought of themselves and their family, elides so many interesting possibilities out of existence

(i’m not even going to get into the most braindead take i have ever heard on the subject, namely that because their time with the fëanorians was such a small fraction of elrond’s total lifespan it was like being kidnapped for two weeks as a toddler and had no greater significance than that. do you not understand what childhood is????)

like, i tend to think of elrond as a child as being very loudly not-a-fëanorian. elros is more willing to go with the flow - hey, if the creepy kinslayer wants kids, elros is happy to play into that in order to not be murdered - but elrond is very firm that he’s not happy to be here and he doesn’t belong with them

(this is after they get over their initial terror, of course, when they’ve realised they won’t be fed to the orcs for the tiniest slight. even so, elrond only really gets shirty about it around people he’s comfortable with, whose reactions he can reasonably guess at. naturally, the first person he does it to is maglor)

elros calls maglor their father exactly once, when they’re... maybe early preteens? this is because elrond hears him do it and immediately loses his shit. they have a dad, elrond says, in tears, and a mum, and any day now their real parents are going to come to pick them up and take them home

... right?

it gets harder to believe as the years roll on, as their memories of sirion fade, as they find their own places within the host, as maglor watches over them as they grow. elrond still mentally sets himself apart from the fëanorians, but it’s more of an effort every year. life in the fëanorian camp is the only one he’s ever really known. he can barely remember his mother’s voice

then the war of wrath starts, and the fëanorian host drifts closer to the army of valinor, and the twins come into contact with non-fëanorians for the first time in forever, and it becomes clear just how obviously fëanorian elrond is. he always insisted he wasn’t like the kinslayers at all, but he dresses like them, talks like them, fights like them

the myth cycles the edain tell are almost completely unfamiliar to him, he barely remembers the shape of the songs of lost doriath. even these sarcastic commentary and subversive reinterpretations he made of maglor’s stories - those were still maglor’s stories! he’s been trying to guess at the person he was meant to be, but it’s growing nightmarishly blatant how little elrond ever knew about him

instead, the people he was born to are as alien to him as the orcs of morgoth. he is a fëanorian, through and through

... yeah, elrond (and/or elros) having an absolutely massive identity crisis upon being reintroduced to his quote-unquote ‘true kin’ is another angle i’d love to see in fic that i don’t think i’ve ever come across. all those potential grey areas around who they are and who they’re supposed to be sound utterly fascinating, and i think it’s the complexity i hate to see elided over the most

i really, really doubt they could effortlessly slot back into being eärendil and elwing’s children. not when they’ve been surrounded by, lived alongside, been raised by the people who were supposed to enemies for most of their lives

they just don’t fit into that box any more. they can’t

speaking of eärendil and elwing, while i do agree that they both (especially elwing) get a lot more flak than they deserve, i don’t agree that therefore elrond and elros were never the slightest bit mad at them and fully forgave them for everything with no reservations

because, well, they were left behind. elwing had no other choice, but they were still left behind; it led to the world being saved, but they were still left behind. all the best intentions in the universe don’t erase the weeks and months and years of waiting, of a hope that grew thinner and frailer until it finally quietly broke

that’s a real hurt, and a real grievance. even if the twins rationally understand that their parents were making the best out of their terrible situation, you can’t logic away emotions like that. it’s perfectly possible for them to know they have no reason to resent eärendil or elwing, and yet still harbour that bitterness and pain

(i did write a thing once where elrond loudly rejects eärendil as his father in favour of maglor, but something i didn’t add in that i probably should have is that elrond later regretted doing that)

(not like, several centuries later, when he’d grown old and wise. two hours later, when he’d calmed down. but he was still legitimately angry at eärendil, because the one thing angry teenage elrond was not lacking in was reasons to be mad at the adults around him, and before he could figure out if he had anything less furious to say the hosts of the valar left middle-earth behind)

(it’s another element to the tragedy of the whole thing. in that particular story, which is mostly aiming for maximum pain, the only thing elrond’s birth parents know about their son for thousands of years is that he hates them)

(and he doesn’t, not really. you can’t hate someone you’ve never known)

not that i think they couldn’t ever make up with their parents! fics where elrond and his birth parents work past all the things that lie between them and form a functional familial bond despite it all give me life. i just don’t like the idea that there’s nothing difficult for them to work past

i don’t like the idea that elrond and elros would naturally, effortlessly identify with the mother they last saw when they were six and the people they only vaguely remember. i can see them doing it as a political move, i can see them going for it as a deliberate personal choice, but i can’t seeing it being immediate and automatic and easy

no matter how great a pair of heroes eärendil and elwing are, that doesn’t change the fact that to elrond and elros, they’re at most a few scattered memories and a collection of far-off stories. and so long as the twins stay in middle-earth, they’re never going to draw any closer

compared to the dynamic, multifaceted, personal, and deep bonds they have with the fëanorians - who, and i know i keep saying this but i think it gets tossed aside way more casually than it should, are the people who actually raised them, their birth parents must feel like a distant idea

and that’s why i can never buy interpretations of elrond as 100% sindarin, a pure son of doriath, with no messy grey areas or awkward jagged edges to his identity. given everything we know about his life, it seems almost cartoonishly simplistic

honestly it seems like a narrative a bunch of old doriathrin nobles trying to manouevre elrond into being high king of the sindar or something would propagate. it's neat and nice and tidy, something that’d be much more convenient for everyone if elrond did feel that way

but i just don’t see how he can. this narrative is easy and simple in a way real people never are, it ignores all the forces pulling him apart. elrond being uncomplicatedly sindarin with the life he lives and the people he's close to - that doesn’t make any sense to me

which isn’t to say i think he’s 100% noldorin, from either a gondolindrim or a fëanorian perspective. (i find it a little more believable, given, again, who he grew up around and who he hangs out with, but it’s still a bit too reductive for my tastes.) it’s also not to say i couldn’t believe an elrond who made an active choice to emphasise his sindarin heritage

it’s not how i think of him, but it works. i don’t have a problem with other people interpreting the complexities of the twins’ identities differently

i just have a problem with people acting like it doesn’t exist

in general i think there’s a lot untapped potential that gets left behind when you declare the twins, separately or together, as All One Thing

they’re descended from half the noble houses of beleriand, and they have deep personal ties to most of the rest. they belong to all of the free peoples even the dwarves, somehow, probably and i feel like that was kind of the old man’s point? so many peoples meet in them, to say they wholly belong to any one species is probably an oversimplification

they sit at a crossroads of potential identities, and rather than narrowing down their worldviews to one single path, they take the hard road and choose all of them. that’s what you need to do, if you want to change the world

and, to bring this back to my ostensible topic, in my estimation at least this mélange of possible selves does include them as fëanorians! it’s not overpowering, but it’s certainly there, and the adults they grow into long after they’ve left the host still bear influence from their childhood

nothing super obvious, nothing that wouldn’t stand out if you didn’t know what to look for, but there’s something almost incandescent in how fiercely elros reaches out for his dreams

there’s something almost defiant in elrond’s drive to be as kind as summer

as for who they publically claim as their family... honestly, it depends. while it’s usually more tactically prudent for elros to connect himself to his various human ancestors, on occasion he does find a use for his free in with the elf mafia, and elrond, code switcher par excellence, is famously the son of whoever is most politically convenient at the moment, which is rarely, but not never, maglor

(in the privacy of their own minds, well, eärendil and elwing may have been the parents elros was supposed to have, but maglor was the parent he actually had, and elros doesn’t particularly care to mope over what might have been. elrond, for his part, figures that after all the shit maglor has put him through, the least that bastard owes him is a father)

but honestly? i think before any of their mountain of identities, before thinking of themselves as sindarin or gondolindel or hadorian or haladin or fëanorian or anything, elrond and elros identify as themselves

they are peredhil, they are númenóreans, they are whoever they make themselves to be. that’s how elrond finally resolved his identity, figured out who he was and found something past the pain and the rage

he wasn’t doriathrin, or gondolindrin, or falathrin, or fëanorian, or whatever else. he was elrond, no more and no less

and that person, elrond, could be whatever he chose to be

... elros came to a similar conclusion, with much less sturm und drang that he’s willing to admit. being able to go ‘hey, i can’t possibly be biased towards any one of your cultures, because i’m descended from all of you and i was raised by murderelves’ makes it a lot easier to unite people around your personal banner, turns out

the stories other people tried to force on them shattered into pieces, and the peredhel twins were free to shape themselves into anything they could dream of

and as the new world struggles alive, these lost children of an Age of death begin to bloom into their full glorious selves -

i just. i love the poetry of that. despite every single shadow that hangs over their past, despite all the clashing notes pulling them apart, they harmonise it all into a greater, kinder theme, determined to make their world a better place in whatever way they can

they fail, of course, but so do all things. the inevitable march of entropy doesn’t diminish the long millennia they (and their descendants) held onto the light

and their growing up in the fëanorian host definitely had a huge effect on the noble lords they became. you can see it in elros’ loud ambition to create a land of happiness and hope, elrond’s quiet resolve to heal all the hurts inflicted by this marred reality

it wasn’t a perfect time by any means, but neither was it a nightmare. it was what it was, a desperate existence at the edge of a knife where, nevertheless, they were loved

even after years upon decades upon centuries have passed, it’s hard for the wise king and the honourable sage to separate out and identify all the conflicting emotions swirling around their childhood. they never knew eärendil or elwing, true, but they also never really knew maglor

not as equals, not as adults, not as people who could truly understand him. he disappeared into the fog of history, leaving only childhood memories of razor-sharp, gentle hands

it’s messy and it’s complicated and getting any real closure would be like shoving their way through a thornbush with bare hands even if elrond could find the shithead, and yet at the core of it all, there is light. not the brightest of lights, maybe, but an enduring one

that contrast, above all, that note of warmth amidst the shadows, is what fascinates me so much about their relationship. three screwed up people in a screwed up world, finding a little peace with each other

and the fact that somehow, it does have a good ending - the children grow up magnificent and compassionate and just, they become exemplars of all their peoples, lodestars of the new world born out of the ashes of the old - that makes it seem to me like this relationship must have contained some fragment of happiness

but, fuck, all the darkness that surrounds that love, all the tangled-up emotions its existence necessitates, all the prefabricated self-identities it can never slot into - nothing about it is simple, nothing about it is easy, and i find that utterly enthralling. especially how, despite everything, that flickering light never goes out

well, i don’t think it does, anyway. my take on this relationship is both complicated enough no one else ever quite gets it right and well-defined enough every single ‘error’ in other people’s interpretations sticks out like a kinslayer in rivendell

it is an entirely self-inflicted problem, i will admit. other people are allowed to interpret those complexities differently from me, and it’s entirely my own fault i lack the :waves hands around nebulously: to write my own hypothetical fic on the subject at a pace faster than glacial

still, though. i do wish there was more fic out there that engaged with these complexities. a lot of the common fandom interpretations of this relationship just sweep it all away

#ask #my terrible headcanons #elros #elrond #maglor #elwing #earendil #feanorians #niphredilien #yellow feathered faerie #putting your old url in the tags for archival purposes #post nyanyannya askbox clearout #ironically it turned out almost as long as the songfic that clogged up my askbox in the first place #and it is DONE #fuck this took forever to write #stayed up late just to get it out the door so i don't have to think about it any more #this is a long ramble and i'm pretty sure the end is just me repeating myself ad nausem sorry #i'll admit to a certain pro-feanorian bias in my interpretation #but i also don't want elros and elrond to just. live in a neverending horrorshow for decades #the silm's cruel enough we don't need that #narratively i feel like elrond being All Of The Elves is a good mirror for elros being All Of The Humans #but it didn't really fit the angle i was going for #bleck #let's see how many followers i lose for this

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snorlaxlovesme · 3 years

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full thoughts on the chaos walking movie? I want to hear more about it lol I haven’t seen it yet

it just...it felt like TKONLG but without EVERY GOOD PART, you know?

scene-wise, the closest individual scene we had to anything in the book was maybe the scene where Viola read Todd’s mother’s book to him? (even that wasn’t the same bc that was also the scene where we find out he’s illiterate, and he lets her read it right away, so there was no deep-rooted embarrassment about not being able to read). also it happened in Farbranch. BUT, like it captured the emotion of the OG scene a little, where Viola is reading to Todd and he’s hearing his ma’s words and getting emotional about it.

but all the stand-out scenes from the book, i.e. saying goodbye to Ben and Cillian, meeting the girl and getting hit in the head with a branch and bandaging her anyway, ALL of the Aaron fights, the bridge, the massacre of Farbranch, the song of Here, the Spackle, Todd’s illness, the waterfall scene, Haven, NONE of that was in the movie. so imagine all the really important and powerful moments gone

also all the overarching themes? those are gone too. todd becoming a man is HUGE deal in the books. even in his horrible awful town he just wants to feel like he BELONGS and he’s the one person in the entire town being ostracized. two of the biggest secrets in Todd’s whole world are kept from him for the majority of the book because he’s “not yet a man”. it’s important to him. and once todd realizes the connection between Prentisstown maturity and murder, he spends the rest of that book WISHING he could be a killer. wishing he could have that kind of strength and seeing himself weak for not being able to kill.

all of that?? gone. movie!Todd often chants the familiar “I am Todd Hewitt” (and sometimes “be a man”) when he’s nervous or trying to cover something in his Noise, and has a little tiff with Ben and Cillian at the beginning of the movie bc the Mayor sees Todd as a man while Ben and Cillian do not. (that’s a weird little bit though bc the movie never really explains why the Mayor had such an interest in Todd). but that’s about it in terms of coming-of-age material in the movie. and about murder. seeing as he doesn’t. kill. the. Spackle. let that sink in.

also like. the Noise is shown as a CONCEPT but not as a theme. the THEME of Noise is that, and I quote

“In this world of information overload, the ability to feel, my boy, is a rare gift indeed.”

or perhaps

“Knowing a man’s thoughts ain’t knowing a man.”

or even

“Knowledge is dangerous and men lie and the world changes, whether I want it to or not.”

in this movie, Noise would be described as like. a nuisance at worst and a superpower at best. you can hear most of every man’s thoughts in the movie, though not a constant, never ending stream. just just bits sporadically at either plot-convenient or comedic times. the Mayor (and at one point Ben, and at one point Todd) uses his Noise to construct illusions around people kind of similar to that Jake Gyllenhaal villain in Spiderman: Far From Home.

but neither of these two main examples really SHOW the themes that Patrick Ness showed us in the books. that Noise is powerfully ANNOYING; that it can quickly break down relationships between groups of people; that it can be manipulated making large lies still possible.

like, remember when in the books, Todd and Viola get to Farbranch and poor Todd is absolutely GOBSMACKED that 1. the women are ALIVE and 2. the men and women are living together?? in harmony?? what the eff?? and you see Hildy in Tam’s Noise and just how much they genuinely love each other and Todd is like “damn we ain’t in Prentisstown anymore Manchee”. and you can just see based on the contrast that Prentisstown people are a whole different breed compared to the kindness of Farbranch?

in the movie Todd has a few moments of inner dialogue where he’s like “oh man that’s a woman. that’s nuts” and then we move on. his world should be turned upside down here and its not. and the difference between the two towns is that they kinda just made it seem like, yeah, Noise is annoying so we have the men sleep separately from the women so we all get a little peace, and it’s fine. that’s how Farbranch deals with it. it all just feels very blasé

(i can’t remember specifically where this happens, probably either in Farbranch or cutting back to the Prentisstown men getting ready to march, but at some point a leader ends up saying something to a crowd of people and you can see how just one sentence spreads through an entire group of men and how they all start amplifying it and getting more and more panicked and i did think the mob mentality was cool. it reminded me of the beginning of The Ask and the Answer were the Mayor is addressing the citizens of Haven and you get that moment where the whole crowd flinches over the words of one man.)

and in all of this I’ve barely mentioned Viola. my wonderful girl. how they’ve massacred her story. god.

all of Viola’s development for the first half of the book is tanked from the start bc you SEE the crash, you see her stealing food from Ben and Cillian’s house (that’s the inciting incident of the movie), she talks to the Mayor in Prentisstown almost immediately after Todd finds her and his Noise helps everyone locate her, she talks to Todd a lot before getting to Farbranch after they escape Prentissown. the book does a LOT of work for Viola by having her mute and scared for the beginning and slowly showing how she comes to trust Todd. and how even after their incessent bickering in Farbranch they still choose to escape together because they know the army is after them specifically and they’re all the other has. that progression is really important in the book, as well as afterwards when we see how snarky Viola can actually be when speaking, how she thinks this entire planet is BACKWARDS and she can’t wait til her ship comes and shows them a thing or two about how to live.

movie Viola, well. she wants to find a way to communicate with her ship. she’s under the impression that since her scout ship crashed they’re gonna assume she’s dead and leave her behind. even though the Mayor brings up the settlers a lot after he learns about them, Viola curiously never really brings them up in any other context besides they need to come and get her. like it really made it sound like she planned on calling them, having them scoop her, and then they’d all just fucking leave, i guess. i don’t know what her end goal was besides CALLING HER PEOPLE which became the main point of the movie. the Mayor trying to find Todd and Viola so he could....use her to contact the ship?? that was also kind of unclear. and Viola trying to get to a communicator possibly so she could get the hell out of dodge. idk if that was her actual plan, but it was certainly what Todd was thinking, enough to where I was wondering if he was going to sabotage her mission in order to force her to stay (yeah. yeah. he had that energy about him and it was grosss)

and quickly, since all the animals couldn’t talk the way they do in the book, Manchee was more of a cute prop than anything. i could have gotten over it if he was useful in any way, but he never even like attacked a dude to save Todd or anything like that. so when he died it was sad on a dog-level but not a character level, since besides sitting next to Viola like twice while she cried he really added nothing to the story. also the shock of animal death was greatly reduced already since Todd’s horse that he used to escape Prentisstown from got a broken leg after he rode him off a cliff, so Todd used the knife (off-screen, thank god) to put him down. so Manchee getting killed was kind of lessened a little since my man Whiskey got nixed like 40 min earlier in the film.

this is getting long so I’ll cut it here since I’m gonna probably post about this a thousand more times. but yeah. if you watched it completely divorced from the books you would probably think “that was a cool concept but also what was the point of any of that” which is basically what most people thought based on the review headlines i’ve read. and if you are an avid book fan you’re gonna think you’re watching something else entirely.

#chaos walking #chaos walking movie #cw movie #chaos walking spoilers #violaeade #long post #ill def be posting about this more bc its all ive thought about for days #@ everyone i am always willing to discuss chaos walking #if you wanna send me an ask or DM me im open for business #kelly got an ask

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kyidyl · 3 years

Text

Kyidyl Explains Bones - Part 6

(All of these are under the KyidylBones tag.)

Age Determination

Well, age at death anyway. I’m gonna put this warning up front:

Today’s post will contain pictures of the skeletons of children. This is something that a lot of people, even those who think they won’t be bothered, find upsetting. This goes double if you actually have children. This post will also include frank discussion of child death.

You have been warned.

So what is age determination? Age determination isn’t the process of figuring out how old a set of remains is, it’s the process of figuring out how old the individual was when they died. Because of the sensitive nature of the topic, I’m putting everything behind a cut today.

Ethics: Beyond the normal respectful approach, there aren’t separate ethical considerations with dealing with age like there are for sex and race. Just be considerate of the fact that child death is super upsetting to some people. I literally had people in my classes at the masters level who were moved to tears by some of the younger remains, so even when you’re used to looking at things from a clinical perspective, kids can be tough.

General: Age is separated into three general categories: juvenile (0-early 20s), adult, and elderly. Juveniles are from birth until the last known skeletal change takes place. IE, until all your teeth come in and all your bones fuse. These are really good indicators of age, so we use them as much as we can for as long into the lifespan as we can. Adults range from “done growing” to “showing signs of degeneration” EG, arthritis and that kind of thing. Elderly is anything older than that.

Also, this applies to all age categories: size is not an indicator of age. Ever.

Juveniles: We say juveniles instead of children because people in their late teens and early 20s aren’t really children, but they haven’t finished growing yet. So juvenile is a more inclusive term, and the more accurate one. That said, kids are by FAR the easiest to know the age of. Juvenile remains do not look like small adult remains, because juveniles that have skeletons that do not resemble adult skeletons beyond the basic “ah, that’s probably a human”.

There are a few ways that we determine the age of a juvenile, and the first thing we check is the teeth. Before the body, before any other signs. Because the teeth are consistently accurate across race, sex, economic standing, any pathologies, etc. Teeth are formed and come in on a schedule. Here is that schedule:

And here is a link to a high res PDF version that you absolutely should take a look at (Source).

Beyond this, the 3rd molar AKA wisdom teeth come in between ages 17-25. Now, archaeological remains won’t have scars on the bone from the wisdom teeth removal that a lot of people commonly undergo, but in the future that will be visible on the bone. I’ll get into this more when I get around to doing the damage and pathology posts, but healed bone has a different appearance than unbroken bone, so a healed-over tooth socket has a different appearance than bone that never had a tooth there to begin with. In addition, while tooth eruption in a living juvenile is accepted as the time when the tooth breaks through the gums, in the remains of a juvenile we can see un-erupted teeth within the jaw. It looks like this:

(Source)

As an aside: those lines on the teeth are called enamel hypoplasia, and I’ll cover it more in the teeth post, but essentially if you don’t get proper nutrition as a child when your adult teeth are developing in your jaw you get these lines in them.

So anyway, because teeth come in on such a precise schedule, and because teeth survive better than anything else in your body (especially in a child’s body. Childrens’ bones are fragile, partially ossified, and they decay quickly.), they’re very good for estimating age at death. Even more so than bones, because bones can be altered by illness, malnutrition, repetitive activity, or genetic anomalies. Teeth almost never are. Or, rather, their rate of growth isn’t.

Another thing we look for when determining age at death is the fusion of the bones. See, as you’re growing you have more bones. Those get larger until they meet up with the bone they’re part of, and then they start to fuse. These are called epiphysis (growth plates). Very young children don’t even have entirely ossified (bone instead of cartilage) bones, let along epiphysis that touch. Babies don’t show up often in the archaeological record because of this. To better illustrate this, here is an image of an xray of a baby’s hand:

(Source)

You’ll notice that the finger bones (Metacarpals and carpels, known collectively as phalanges.) have small little bones at the ends that aren’t attached - that’s not an anomaly, that’s normal. Those are the physis, which will fuse later in life after they are larger, and the plate between them from which they grow is the epiphysis. You can also see that the wrist bones have barely begun to ossify and don’t show up on the xray, and the physis for the radius and ulna (arm bones) also haven’t begin to ossify and thus don’t show up - that’s why the arm bones look like one bone. They aren’t, they have an epiphysis at either end (Your elbow is a separate bone called the olecranon and it doesn’t fuse until later on.). This happens at a very predictable rate, and so we can tell how old someone is from a combination of their teeth and which bones have and have not ossified and fused. In addition, the bone of the epiphysis has a unique texture that is referred to as “billowy” in the literature (even tho I hate that word). Here’s a picture:

(Source)

The one on the left is what you want to look at, since this is a progression through age. Also I sniped this from a paper on age estimation, so if you’re interested in this take a look at it. It’s on researchgate so it’s not behind a paywall. As an aside: researchgate is amazing and you should all learn to use it.

Anyway, see that bumpy texture on the left? That’s what unfused bone looks like at the growth plate. This actually applies to, as far as I know, all land mammals. So if you find animal bones with this texture at the end of the bone, then that animal was a juvenile when it died. Bones fuse at different times in your life, but we know the times when they fuse. There are 206 bones in the adult body, so that would be a lot for me to try and put in a tumblr post, but if you google a specific bone you should be able to find the ages they fuse. I believe, if memory serves, that the skull sutures are the last to fully fuse, and they in fact continue to become more tightly fused as your life goes on. I’ll cover that in the next section tho. It will hold together as a teenager, but the skull bones take a long time to fuse to each other. Two of the last epiphysis to fuse though are the iliac crest (The curved part of the hip - it’s actually its own separate bone. Like just the small, smooth curved part.) and the sternal end of the clavicle (clavicle = collarbone, and the sternal end is the medial part towards the sternum.). This happens in your early to mid 20s.

So teeth and bone fusion are the two most used methods of age estimation. So if anyone ever shows you a small skeleton with fused bones and calls it a child, roll your eyes at them. It’s not a child.

One last note on juvenile skeletons: until the individual undergoes puberty, sex and race determinations are extremely difficult (teeth can be used for race, but not for sex. Not really, anyway.). So again, anyone who professes to know the sex of a set of pre-pubescent remains without like...a gravestone or something telling them is probably a liar. Right now the methods for doing that are either expensive (genetics) or inaccurate. And doing genetic evaluations on old juvenile remains is difficult, because their bones are more fragile than adult bones and break down easier, which exposes the DNA to easy degradation. It’s not impossible, it’s just usually more difficult and more expensive.

For reference, here is a juvenile skeleton laid out in standard anatomical position. There is more than one individual here, so ignore any of the bones outside the arms and above the head.

(Source)

Adults and the Elderly: After an individual finishes growing, estimating their age becomes increasingly difficult. There’s no such thing as, for example, an average number of tooth cavities. In addition, the natural growth and destruction of your bone cells over your lifetime means that things you do habitually can significantly alter the shape of your bones and the rate at which they break down.

However, there are a few things that can be used. Joints wear down at a fairly consistent rate, and arthritis leaves specific markers on the bones that we can identify as arthritis rather than normal wear and tear. This is most easily views in two places: the public symphasis (the front where your two hip bones meet.) and the acetabulum (The socket that the round end of your thigh bone is in.). The picture I used above is an image of the wear and tear seen on a series of pubic symphysises (symphysii? IDK.). And so these are matched against skeletons whose age at death was known and age ranges for changes to this area were arrived at.

When I was doing my MSc, we did a project where we were assigned a set of remains and had to use everything we’d learned in the course to do a full evaluation of our skeletons. Well, the majority of my skull was missing and so I used the acetabulum to do age estimation on the skeleton (I had some teeth, but not most of the ones that are diagnostic of age, which I’ll cover in a sec.). This is an image from and a link to one of the papers I used:

(Source)

Two things happen here as you age. One, the edges of the socket become damaged and it starts to change the anatomy (F is oldest). Two, that space in the middle is called the acetabular fossa, or the acetabular notch. And as you can see, the shape of it changes over time due to normal wear and tear. In combination with resources like the one I linked, we can use this to estimate the age of an adult or elderly individual.

Another tool we use has to do with the fusion of your growth plates. After the bones fuse, the line is still visible. Throughout your life the remodeling (normal breakdown/growth of bones and healing from damage.) causes the sutures to be come less and less visible. We call this obliteration. In the elderly, most of their sutures and growth plates will be completely obliterated. For example, the femur is in four pieces as a child. The main body of the femur, the head of the femur, the greater trochanter (The big bump on the top outside. This is like...the part that’s wides below your hips where your thigh meets your pelvis, but on the outside.), and the condyles (the rounded pieces on the far end.). The greater trochanter fuses and obliterates pretty early on, but the head and the condyles are pretty easy to see even in adults. Here’s an example showing the femoral head:

(Source)

As you can see, the trochanter has fused and is obliterated, but the head has fused and you can still see the line from the growth plate. The sutures in the skull are especially good for this, as cranial sutures take the majority of the lifespan to obliterate (sometimes they never fully do.). If you see a smooth skull, that person was ooooold.

The last easily accessible way we assess age at death is via tooth wear. Now, this won’t work in modern skeletons, which is why there’s a lot of research surrounding the evaluation of age at death. We’re well aware that after humans entered roughly the industrial age, our foods became soft and teeth no longer wear like they should, and after that point in time it’s not possible to use the standardized methods of tooth wear to evaluate age. Well, I should rephrase, it won’t be possible in westernized and industrialized societies. Cultures in Africa and South America that still practice pastoral or hunter/gatherer lifestyles will likely still have expected tooth wear. Anyone who lives in a society that has and uses grocery stores or doesn’t use two rocks to mill flour (Do not underestimate how much bread people ate.), is not going to have expected tooth wear (so it’s not about rural vs city.).

See, it’s normal and natural for teeth to wear. It’s normal and natural for the yellowish substance below the enamel, called dentin, to show. Dentin is almost as hard as enamel, and it actually regrows. We evolved to have tooth wear both on the surfaces and between the teeth. Humans used to eat much tougher foods, and even when we weren’t, our foods had a lot of grit in them (IE, tiny pieces of stone from milling flour. I have a whole ass theory about the role of dirt in the evolution of teeth for all animals but that’s neither here nor there.) and wore our teeth down. Wear isn’t a sign of bad dental hygiene, it’s a sign of a tougher diet. After the industrial age we started using different methods to produce food and started eating softer food overall, so we stopped putting the stresses on our jaws required for both proper tooth wear and the proper growth of our teeth (AKA: wisdom tooth impaction.). So normally worn teeth look like this:

(Source for both images)

If you’ll notice in that top image the lines where the teeth meet fit exactly together. This is because of tooth wear. Interestingly you’ll also notice in the bottom image that this individual’s teeth are unevenly worn, meaning they chewed on the right side of their mouth. This is actually something we see all the time because of both handedness, and insult to the teeth on one side of the aw (AKA it was painful cause they had cavities.). This individual was likely a young adult given that they don’t have a lot of tooth wear to begin with, but they were preferentially using one side of their mouth to chew and so it is more worn than it would be for someone who wasn’t doing that. Here is the chart we use to grade tooth wear and age on adult teeth:

(Source)

That link has a larger version of the chart and more images.

So the fact that I’m 40 and still can feel all the cusps on all of my molars is an anomaly compared to previous humans. Soft foods. So if you compare the above image of the jaw with the chart, you’ll see that the individuals in both pictures have wear in the 25-35yrs old age rage, or what we would consider to be a young adult. And before you start talking about average age of humans back in the day, don’t forget that the average includes a lot of dead children. Once you made it to adulthood you lived a decent amount of time.

So those of you who are older than your 30s or so might not remember this, but when your adult incisors come in they had small ridges on the edges. It was easier to tell on your top teeth (maxillary incisors) than your bottom ones (mandibular incisors.), but it’s present on both. These bad boys:

(Source)

That is obviously a living human, but I’m showing you because they wear quickly. They do, however, wear at a prescribed pace so if a set of remains has them they were young. Sometimes they’re gone before you’re even an adult, but I figured I’d mention them because they are another kind of tooth wear.

Disease: The last thing that helps in age determination are age-based diseases. Namely, osteoarthritis and osteoporosis. There are circumstances wherein someone younger can have both of those pathologies, but that’s why we have all of the other things. So if we see signs of arthritis in a younger person, we’ll have the other signs to help us realize that they aren’t an elderly individual.

Osteoarthritis is, essentially, a thinning of the cartilage, fluid, and other soft tissues in the joints, causing the bones to rub against each other instead of sliding nicely on the cartilage. Now, a certain amount of thinning is expected with age - obviously, as arthritis in the elderly is extremely common even now. But osteoarthritis is an escalation of the normal wear and tear into a pathology. Osteoarthritis damages the joints, and so bone attempts to regrow, so you see a lot of abnormal outgrowths of bone that fit tightly together because they were rubbing against each other. You also see, in extreme cases, striations on the bones where they were grinding together. Like this:

(Source)

This is a knee joint, viewed from the posterior side. You can see on the bottom condyle and the opposing articular surface that there are lines. Those lines are from the bones grinding. You also can see, especially on the tibia, all those little funky looking bone bits. All that roughness sticking out around end, below the flat surface. Some roughness there is normal, but that’s rougher than it should be and that’s the result of osteoarthritis.

The other disease common in the elderly is osteoporosis. Osteoporosis is an illness that causes compact/cortical (the thicker hard bone around the spingy bone to thin and become porous (hence the name.). I’ve held bone with extremely advanced osteoporosis and they are about half the weight of normal bones. So that’s the first sign. The next sign is that they’ll be damaged, both from the natural processes of time and from subsequent handling, because they’re farm more fragile than health adult bone. The vertebra also take on a “squished” appearance due to the forces of gravity and the remodeling during the life of the individual. You also will often see poorly healed breaks (I’ll show you more of this later in this series when I get to pathologies.).

So that brings us to the end of the bit about age determination. Hope you guys are enjoying this series. :) I think next up is gonna be teeth! =D

#science #KyidylBones #archaeology #forensic #forensic anthropology #skeleton #age #human skeleton #human remains #educational #infodump #bones #human bones

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thatsjustrwde · 3 years

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For the RWBY character prompt thing: you gotta tell me about Ironwood for sure! And if somebody already asked, how's about Qrow? :)

OH BABEY A DOUBLE (I’m gunna put Qrow in a separate post to avoid making this too long) thank you so much!

Warning: This is a PRO IRONWOOD POST. I also go into team RWBY taking responsibility for their abuse towards Ozpin. Don’t read this if you don’t like it. You’ve been warned

My top three two ships for Ironwood

1) Ironqrow (Ironwood x Qrow) {Volumes 3-7}

I have loved the idea of these two since the fall of beacon. When they first interacted, I wasn’t too sure about them because it seemed like they didn’t really like each other.. but that scene where all the robots were turning on beacon and Qrow spotted ironwood, ran at him with his scythe, only to jump over him and save him from a Grimm, sold the ship to me. It was clear that they didn’t actually despise each other. Qrow wasn’t quick to point fingers; he knew that what was going on wasn’t James’ fault, and he even tried to add a little bit of comic relief to the scene. (When ironwood’s ship fell, and Qrow smirked “well, it won’t be much of a walk”)

My love for the ship was reinforced in v6 (yeah I know it was the fan service volume but I’m rolling with it anyway). Qrow knew that they HAD to get to ironwood in order to complete their goal. He trusted James, and he knew that he was a smart and capable leader who would know what to do (ah,, the good old days ;;)

And then in the early episodes of v7, their bickering that we once saw in v3 was non existent. They were happy to see each other, and James even initiated a hug. He was just so relieved to see him ;; it made my heart melt, I remember posting about this moment so much, all over instagram and tumblr. I loved them so dearly.

2) Ironwood x Glynda (idk if they have a ship name)

God,, I always loved them. that scene in v2 with Ironwood and Glynda standing together in the dead of night looking over the city of vale was so special to me. I love Glynda and her character, she is so dynamic. that scene with her and ironwood showed to us that she truly respected and cared for him and his well-being. She was worried for him as well. I just wish they had more interactions before his death. they would have been very sweet and POWERFUL together.

My three least favourite ships for Ironwood

1) Ironqrow {Volumes 7-8}

Oh boy. RT really knows how to take something good and just, ruin it huh.

I feel as though I don’t need to dive too deep into this (as I’ll be covering Ironwood’s fall from grace later) but yeah... The fight with Qrow and Clover was.. unfortunate. Everyone seemed to lose their braincells in that scene, and the moment it was over, Qrow was dead set on killing Ironwood for some reason even though he was the one who decided to side with a literal murderer, but go off MKEK you really did something there...

Yepp this absolutely killed the ship for me in canon (though I stilln love thinking about them out of the canon setting), I was an absolute wreck after this scene. they deserved better.

2) Ironwood x Winter

don’t worry I’m not about to pull the “IRONWOOD WAS AN ABUSIVE FATHER FIGURE AND GROOMED HER CAREERRHYUGGHR” no.

I always saw Ironwood as a POSITIVE father figure to winter, even before v7. We knew that winter was one of his best soldiers, and was most likely one of his students before then. I believe that Ironwood gave winter a chance at something great, to leave her actual abusive father and hone her skills as a soldier instead of becoming the heiress to a company that she did not want to be tied to. I believe Ironwood was a stellar father figure and role model to her, and that is the reason why I do not ship them. their relationship was so much deeper than that. it was found family.

3) Ironwood x Salem

What the fuck. Like actually what? This was a thing? What is it with this fandom and glorifying abusive relationships... I remember seeing a lot of people trying to justify it like “awh salem was so sweet with him she just wanted him to stop fighting. She would leave him alone after!!” Thats manipulation honey, we don’t fuck with that here. no. Absolutely not

My biggest criticism for Ironwood

See: the reason I made this side blog

It’s no secret to us in the RWDE community that his fall into the role of the villain was POORLY WRITTEN AND WE ALL HATE IT SO FUCKING MUCH. where the hell did this even come from? oh I know! TEAM RWBY LYING TO HIS FACE AFTER HE WAS NOTHING BUT KIND AND GENEROUS TO THEM. god I’m heated already.

I’ve talked about his stupid semblance before but it doesn’t even matter because his semblance wasn’t the cause of his descent anyway. We were all HOPING that it was but nope! it was him “losing his humanity” because he lost his other arm. How fucked up is that.

Shitty writing aside, I know James had flaws even before the shitshow that was v7-8, but honestly there was nothing he did that I can criticize harshly. He was a good and honest man with good intentions and a pure, big heart made of gold. Of course he made mistakes and of course he wasn’t perfect, but he was always trying to do the right thing to protect the people. He was a good man until MKEK decided they needed a reason to kill off another headmaster.

My favourite thing about Ironwood

his MUSCLES

His willingness to sacrifice himself to save others. During the fall of beacon he told the students that they didn’t have to stay, even though he could have used the help greatly. But he KNEW that they weren’t ready to handle a crisis like this, and he didn’t want to force them into a responsibility that could have left them emotionally/physically damaged, or worse.

During the Ironwood and Watts fight, IRONWOOD MANGLED HIS OWN ARM TO CAPTURE WATTS. He was so headstrong and brave and he wanted to do everything he could to prevent Salem, even if that meant hurting himself and losing another part of himself. God I miss him so much ;; I’m tearing up a little writing all of this...

A head canon I have for Ironwood

I love creating head canons for characters, it always makes them feel more real to me. one of my biggest head canons is that, in a peaceful world setting, he would enjoy sleeping in on the weekends. ;;. He is a headmaster AND a general which means he has to follow a strict schedule all the time. Maybe this is coming from my desire to take care of him and make sure he is happy and healthy and not stressed out.. But yeah, lazy Sundays, sleeping in late. pls let him sleep he needs so much sleep. What I would change about Ironwood if I were making a rewrite

Strap in kiddos I’ve been thinking about this for a very long time. I’m sure that someone has come up with a similar concept, but I will share my ideas anyway (: I am going to preface this by saying that for this rewrite to work, we need to have Winter receive the Winter maiden powers from Freya in V7. To start, we will have to go back all the way to v2 when Ironwood was first introduced. I would have Ozpin and Glynda share their concerns to each other about Ironwood bringing all of his ships to look over the festival, but I would take that time to thoroughly explain his semblance. His semblance is stupid, so I would make some changes. To start off, I wouldn’t make it passive. The way it is now is just,, a weird way to give him a mental illness without actually giving him a mental illness. Activating it would have to be a decision that he made if he knew that he had to make decisions that would be hard for him. This way if his semblance caused him to do something actually horrible, he would be directly accountable for it, instead of blaming him for something that he couldn’t control. Semblances are a representation of the user, so with time and with more stress put onto Ironwood, I could see him falling victim to his own semblance if he were to abuse it too much. This will help as we lead into a better way to write his fall from grace.

From there, I would keep pretty much everything the same until we get to v7. Team RWBY arrives in Atlas and gets arrested and brought to Ironwood just as they do in canon. This time, however, we have Oscar explain EVERYTHING. No lying. Salem cannot be killed. Oscar explains that Ozpin shut himself off after team RWBY forced the truth out of him, and while the truth is a lot for Ironwood to handle, he understands why Ozpin kept it a secret. He shuns team RWBY for their methods and explains why their actions were unnecessary and abusive, but agrees to help them anyway since he knows that they all need to come together if this is going to work. Hence, his arc kind of goes backwards. Instead of team RWBY having his trust from the beginning, they will need to work to gain it back.

He takes Oscar under his wing to try and draw Ozpin back out. He greets Qrow, they fall in love, he also formally introduces the team to the Ace Ops. The Ace Ops take an IMMEDIATE backseat in the story. We don’t need more characters. For the sake of this rewrite specifically, they are barely around. We are focusing on Ironwood and his growth/relationships. I would explore more times to show the deep connection between him and Winter. As I said earlier, I see him as a healthy father figure for her, so I would definitely focus on that for a bit. At this point, Winter would not have received the maidens power yet, so we could have a scene of him assuring her that she is a perfect fit for the role, and encouraging her and just,, you know, solidifying that he wasn’t pressuring her into doing it.

Carrying on with the main plot, instead of being left in the dark for the whole season, Ironwood is already aware that Salem cannot be killed. This gives him and the rest of the team a lot of time to work on a new plan to defeat her. They spend lots of time training, Ironwood takes care of them, offering his resources to them. Overtime the team do start to gain his trust little by little again, but this will all kinda fall apart when Salem arrives.

With stress levels higher than ever, he activates his semblance. Team RWBY and friends KNOW about his semblance and they understand why he is acting irrationally. Maybe they have different ideas than him, but they would not directly oppose him. This completely fixes him from becoming a cartoon villain. Team RWBY and friends would work WITH Ironwood at a distance to fix amity and get global communications back up safely. From there, Ironwood could deliver a message to the world about Salem. Since people know who he is, it will make the message more impactful. Just like he did with his message to Mantle.

Qrow and Winter are positives in his life. They keep trying to ground him and bring him back to reality, but he will not deactivate his semblance. He is too scared of what’s to come with Salem. They support him in this, and do not turn their back on him.

Winter receives the maiden’s power, and is told to open the vault to obtain the staff and raise atlas further into the sky to save his people. Winter agrees, why wouldn’t she? They have already evacuated most of mantle to atlas anyway. In situations like this it’s impossible to save everyone. RWBY could whine and bitch if they wanted to, but there is nothing they could do in this situation because, for the sake of this rewrite, they wouldn’t be as stupid as they are in the canon proper.

The vault is open and the staff is vulnerable. It is in this moment that the ACTUAL VILLIAN comes into play. Watts took advantage of the security from behind the scenes, giving Salem the exact time that the vault was open. And thanks to him overhearing everything, he knows that all she needs to do is use the staff, and Atlas will fall. Salem appears in the room, and the big finale battle would occur. They weren’t ready yet. They hadn’t finalized the plan to stop her without killing her. Team RWBY Oscar and Qrow would do their best to keep Salem distracted while Winter and Ironwood speak to the staff. Meanwhile, Neo could breach Ironwood’s office and retrieve the relic of knowledge for Salem.

The battle plays out, she keeps coming back, the team gets tired, Salem loses her patience and just PLOWS through them to get to the staff. She enters the realm and the mystical world around them begins to shatter and break. With that much concentrated evil in this place coming up out of nowhere, it would be sure to shift the balance.

She goes head to head against Winter and Ironwood for the staff. She knows that using the staff will cause Atlas to come crashing down, so that is exactly what she does. Since he is already out, she just gives him a command. It doesn’t matter what it is. Atlas starts to fall. She strikes a lethal blow to Ironwood (Keeping the theme of her killing headmasters) and flees with the staff. Qrow runs to his side, he and winter are crying, Team RWBY is upset, OZPIN IS UPSET. With his aura broken and his semblance down, he smiles at them all, says that he is proud of them for their work and he knows that they will find a way to defeat her. He tells them to get out and save themselves, save as many people as they can. They do that, but for further angst, Qrow stays with him, holding him and crying against him as Atlas falls. Team RWBY use the gravity dust keeping Atlas falling slowly to their advantage. They get as many people as they can into airships and send them to mistral. They then make their own way to Vacuo... Since global communications are back up, the world would know about this. This would give Shade academy a good chance to prepare. (damn I could write a fic)

What I think of Ironwood’s allusion and what I would change.

It’s dumb the way that CRWBY has portrayed it. In the story of the Wizard of Oz, the tin man doesn’t have a heart, but learns to love overtime. I used THIS aspect for helping my rewrite of Ironwood. He was hardened at the beginning, but managed to trust again and eventually smiled and said that he was proud of team RWBY and friends in his dying moments. It’s just more impactful that way I think.

#long post #ironwood #pro ironwood #ironqrow #rwde #rwby crit

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daimonhalos · 3 years

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Aight this is the second time I watch it but I'm gonna do a commentary on the latest bad's lore stream! Just for funsies, I might have honestly already forgotten some stuff so I wanna keep my thought process :3 let's go, commentary under the cut.

There's also some small theories/analysis in some points but nothing too much, just me rambling cause pain.

The pre stream song. Faster and Bad never change please.

I love so so so much the ominous soundtracks he puts as background for lore man it's just so coooool.

Reality check pre/post lore my beloved 💜

that little meh eh eh. is everything

he's just on a boat at night and but can already see he's got shaders on, this means PRETTY VISUALS AHEAD. Also i really like bits beginning with the character alone heading towards their destined direction, it's just pleasing

HIM TAKING DOWN ANTI EGG POSTERS. KING SHIT

Can't believe I got to hear "muffinhead" in lore voice.

Not even inside the room and HOLY SHIT they covered it all with the red bricks block IM AAAAH IT'S SO PRETTY. Like before the vines were all put at random but now they're neatly placed and it's actually aesthetically pleasing? I love it

DANCEFLOOR DANCEFLOOR DANCEFLOOR

The table. is . so. is so . it's so prebby,,, help like i'd live there man

Bad being overwhelmed by the egg's voice and lowkey scared. FINE IM FINE

No other choice. And the way he repeated it like a mantra? Kind of like to convince himself? AHHH

SKEPPY. SKEPP

small,, small egg staircase

haha fuckign pain. p a i n. just pain it sounds a lot like Skeppy before actually stayed with Bad cause it annoyed him how much he wanted to hang out like old times,,,,, my heart pangs

IM JUST WORRIED ABOUT YOU

I CARE ABOUT YOU *passes out*

bad scared the egg is skeppy's bff now /j (have to joke through the pain,,)

BADBOY i swear to god he knows his audience. he just does.

Bad doing whatever he can to even just hang out a few minutes with skeppy. Bro, the tears inside

"I'm comfortable right here." "Skeppy I know you are-" THE WAY BAD'S VOICE BROKE HERE HOLY SHIT LEMME CLIP IT.

He talks to chat. HE TALKS TO CHAT THIS MEANS WE ARE CANON THUS we are either little angels or demons around him or a mix or, we're particles that make up Rat ♥

"All of this is for him" okay stab me next time it'll hurt less

BADBOY STARTING TO BE CONFLICTED BECAUSE HE NEVER HAS A FUCKING BREAK

s- w- skeppy kept the egg alive? okay so ive been thinking about the fact that skeppy became completely red and like wow what if it kinda is that hes literally become a small part of Egg? like, i wonder if someone breaks it, if he feels pain

Skeppy so dry with his responses. stop i will cry

bad. bad why are you bringing up selfies to a lore stream bad-

"why are you still talking to me" "okay..." stop stop PLEASE STOP-

smol growls, he's getting frustrated

idk why but skeppy talking about the perimeters made me laugh it was just funny how far away he was and just started talking about it randomly

"i think it looked a little bit better before" thoughts being thunk

"what's it gonna take for you to stop talking to me?" literally i am deceased s t o p

STOP STEPPIN ON THE MAGMA BLOCKS SIR YOU'RE HURTING

Bad shouldn't be so happy about just having "one last walk around" with skeppy so he "stops bothering" him tHIS HURTS SO MUCH the egg has fucked them up so much

Skeppy doesn't hear it huh? Maybe it whispers different things to everyone

"I like how it feels" nooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO STOP HURTING TOURSELF

so no dance? *slams phone on the ground*

When skeppy says his line about never seeing anything close to a party there, idk what it is about it but his tone just hits, man he's so good preesh

HE CALLED HIM ANT. BAD PLS YOUR BEING BAD AT NAMES IS SHOWING

"Oh my goodness you're going back to the egg" HE'S SO SAD. HE'S SO SAD CAUSE HE COULDNT KEEP HIM WITH HIM A LITTLE BIT LONGER HES S

"you know what? i invite you" i wanna read this in a certain way. The egg was feeling like bad was so frustrated he started doubting the egg, so it was like alright let's use skeppy to get it closer to I can manipulate this bad boy better :)) motherfuck

are they about to kiss-

egg cockblocker

"okay don't come back" end me rn

ngl when sapnap joined I got real scared for a moment.

"it's not about power! it's nor about control! i'm you friend skeppy!" "I mean ... you can think that" FUCK U NO IM NOT DEALING WITH THIS RN

"We're friends, right?"

"In your head we can be best friends, we can be whatever you want" BDI ANYONE??????? also whatever- whatever he wants? :eyes: okay sorry no ill see myself out

"We're m- we are friends sk-" M- MARRIED WAS HE GONNA SAY MARRIED DID HE PULL A QUACKITY OH MY GOD I HATE THIS GUY OH MY GOD /pos but also like in a bawling my eyes out way

the egg is more than just a friend? skep u good there pal do u have smth to tell us

"You don't know what it's like." OH HERE HE GOES. HERE HE GOES HERE IT COMES OH NO.

The way Bad stutters i really thought he was gonna say something REALLY IMPACTFUL

"I have done so much for you, for our friendship and now you're trying to tell me we're not friends anymore?" LEAVE ME ALONE

I JUST CAUGHT THE BLOOPER HE SAID ON ME INSTEAD OF HANG OUT WITH ME IM CRYING OH MY GOD BAD HOW DID U FUCK THAT UP oh my god I imagine him mentally going like oh my gosh out of all the things that could be messed up THAT WAS SO FUNNY

ahaha my dads are fighting help

"You think you've done anything? You seriously think that?" *looks at my fic where bad feels worthless because the egg said so* ahah... I'm sorry?

"You left me for a long, long long time before you even checked up on me, okay?" he's not wrong,,,, he's not wrong why does this hurt sm,,,,, "and now all of a sudden you care about me?" OH MY GOD PLEASE I HATE THIS EGG

I see them... i see them approaching the lava blocks..

"the past doesn't matter" the egg wanting to erase their relationship so much,,,, i wanna cry because then if bad doesn't have skeppy he just has nothing right and then,,, then he can be another empty vessel for the fucking egg I hate this mI hate this so much

Also!!! little things I noticed!! Bad taking away part of the vine and also mining a red block? Without being affected at all? MHHHH

"I just wanted us to hang out like we used to" BAD'S VOICE CRACKING AGAIN STOP I WILL CJRYSD

"I did all of this for you and I didn't want the egg to take that away" you see how fucking tragic this is. Like Skeppy sacrificed himself so his friend could stop being infected. Bad sacrificed literally the whole server himself included to get him back. And then it comes down to this. The egg separating them a thousand fucking miles away. I hate this it's so sad

the selfish bit please no stop

THE LAVA BAD THE LAVA PLEASE IT'S TOO CLOSE

the fucking shaking with rage thing got me BROOOO I LOVE WHEN BAD DOES THE LITTLE THINGS IN GAME

"IT'S JUST A STUPID EGG" FUCKING FINALLY YOU TELL HIM BAD but then oh no oh no would you look at that huh. cant fucking have shit in dsmp. the way he immediately just screams for him right after

YOU CAN HEAR THE TEARS IN HIS VOICE and also mine hi I'm sobbing again

BDI FUCKING CANON LET'S GOOOOOOO WE CALLED ITTTT

(Dreamscape?)Skeppy being actually concerned with him haha this doesn't hurt at all!!!

*stares at black screen* I'm fine.

Thank you for listening to my ramble I am hurting so much bestie

#dream smp #dream smp spoilers #badboyhalo #bbh #skeppy #death tw #mind control tw #ask to tag

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linkspooky · 4 years

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The Fall of Hawks and Twice.

Hawks choosing to sacrifice Twice is not purely for the greater good. In effect it’s Twice repeating what he always does, choosing to sacrifice himself. Twice essentially is twice, they’re both two-faced, they both experienced a fall, they both long for an easy life. Hawks choice to attack his foil, his shadow in Twice, says a lot about his own character. Hawks and Twice are so close it’s essentially an act of self harm. He’s beating up, and threatening to stab a person who looks like himself. Hawks is a character defined by his self destruction. Icarus is a famous story and metaphor for self-destruction, Icarus chooses to fly too close to the sun. Hawks is an icarus who wants to let himself fall, and because of that he deliberately chooses to push people like Twice who are so much like himself over the edge. Hawks and Twice are two characters who fall into conflict not because of their differences, but because of how similiar they are. More on their foiling underneath the cut:

1. Hawks Destroys Himself.

When Hawks said “You’re a very kind-hearted person” what he meant was “This is what makes you an easy target.” There’s an expression of remorse with those words as well, but you have to remember the lessons that Hawks’ learned through life. His first major action was saving a bus-load of children from an accdient as a child, and his reward for that “kind-hearted” action was to immediately get taken advantage of by every adult in his life.

Hawks has been taught over and over again by life that his good nature, the part of him that wants to save other people is something that makes him usable. To the point where saving people is no longer something he consciously chooses to do, it’s a function of who he is. The same way a robot programmed to save someone from a burning building would carry that job out without fail.

The one image we see of Hawks’ childhood with the public safety bureau he’s blindfolded. This is an important symbol for a character whose name is literally “Taka” Hawk and “Mi” See, visible, idea. Raptors in particular are known for their eyesight. Being able to see everything is important to Hawks, because seeing everything, knowing everything, visibility, and knowledge are both things that give him agency.

But as a child Hawks’ agency is completely stripped from him. He is literally blindfolded. He treasures it so much now because there was a time in the past where it was completely taken from him.

As a person Hawks is very self aware. He knows on some level that his dedication to saving others is what allows other people to use him so much. His way of regaining control of that has always been to just let himself be used, and say it was for a good cause.

Hawks’ tendency is towards self destruction. It’s the same as All Might saving people until all of his internal organs are irrepariably damaged and he is going to barely live past forty. Hawks was never treated as an individual in his life, and therefore he has almost no individual self-worth. He will always view himself as expendable, and always choose the option that damages him the most. However, this is a learned behavior. This is literally what Hawks’ was taught to do by the hero commission. Sacrifice yourself to save people, they’ve put this idea in his head since he was a literal child. The hero commission views him as someone without agency, without someone who has a choice in his own actions. Hawks as a person does not really exist outside of what the hero commission tells him to do. His value and worth as a person is entirely determined by how useful he is to others.

Hawks knows that he doesn’t really have a choice. That they’re taking advantage of the little boy inside of him that still genuinely does want to save people. However, he deludes himself and pretends that he is going along with this, that he does have a choice in order to reclaim what little agency he has left. Hawks chooses to self destruct. He flies towards the sun deliberately.

2. Hawks and Dissociation Disorders

So earlier I made the claim that both Twice and Hawks suffer from dissociation, it’s just that Hawks doesn’t really show his symptoms on the surface, and Twice is very obvious about it.

Now I don’t think there’s a like textbook diagnosis for Twice, but he displays a lot of symptoms for dissociation in his writing. Let’s do a quick review for Dissocation Disorders in general, I’m not talking about DID so much as the general category grouped together.

Dissociative disorders (DD) are conditions that involve disruptions or breakdowns of memory, awareness, identity, or perception. People with dissociative disorders use dissociation as a defense mechanism, pathologically and involuntarily.

Under this branch term there are four general types:

Dissocative Amnesia:

The Sudden inability to recall information of a personal nature due to forgetfulness or other organic conditions (We see Shigaraki do this).

Dissociative Fugue

Inability to recall personal identity and past with confusion about personal identity or assumption of new identity. (We see Shigaraki and Dabi both do this. Twice too doesn’t know if he’s the original or the real Twice or just a copy)

Depersonalization

Persistent symptoms involving changing in perception, and being detached from one’s own thoughts and body. May feel things are unreal or have a sense of being in a dreamlike state.

Dissociative Identity

Existence of two or more distinct alters, each with its own memories, attitudes, and perceptions. (Twice suffers from some form of this he at least hears two distinct voices in his head that argue with each other, but diagnosis is a very messy thing and he could overlap with a few other categories. IDK if Hori intended to show he has two distinct alters or just that he hears voices).

Hawks mostly shows signs of depersonalization, but I would argue just like Dabi, Shigaraki and Twice he also has his moments of clear dissociative fuge from his own thoughts, and intentions. Remember Hawks is incredibly high functioning a lot of the signs he shows of his mental illness are very subtle but let’s go over them quickly.

Its mentioned several times that the expression on Hawks’ face almost never matches what he’s feeling inside. He’s completely inscrutable to other people.

Even if they want to, literally no one in his social circle can understand him. How much of this is really Hawks being the best spy ever, and how much is Hawks literally not being able to show it or communicate properly. A severely depersonalized Hawks would be so detached from his own emotions he would essentially be unaware what he is feeling as well.

I can imagine Hawks smiling in a mirror for hours so he knows when to smile at the right time, and knows when to make the right faces to react to things so he doesn’t intentionally set everybody off. If Hawks has to make all of those reactions intentionally as part of an act, if he doesn’t intuit those things naturally there’s a serious disconnect betweehn what he is feeling and how he’s able to display and communicate those feelings. It’s kind of like how autistic people don’t always react “appropriately” or at least what everybody else considers to be appropraite. (There’s a lot of overlap in these mental illness symptoms).

If Hawks has to continually at all times act like he’s reading off of a script when he’s interacting with other people, even just having normal conversations than that means there’s serious unreality he’s experiencing.

Hawks also expresses guilt in relatively the same way that Dabi does. The scene itself is even paralelled. Hawks says I’m sorry in his internal narration, but does not show it in his face, or even communicate those feelings.

Dabi then literally in the next panel when asked if he feels guilt for the people he’s killed, says that he spent so much time thinking about it he went crazy. Dabi and Hawks are foiling here to show that they suffer from the same symptoms. Both of them have to continually dissociate themselves from their own emotions in order to deal with the guilt that piiles up. Dissocation, above everything else is a way to relieve stress by separating you from yourself, your own body, the pain you feel, etc. Hawks just like Dabi thinks about these things to the point where he goes crazy.

The connetion betwen Dabi and Hawks is just like that of Twice and Hawks, what Dabi expresses, Hawks conceals. Hawks interanlizes all of his damage and destroys himself, Dabi externalizes all of his damage and lashes out at the world around him but the result is the same, internalizing, externalizing, its still exteremly unhealthy behavior.

Tumblr user @katsubf made a post about this here.

If you compare Shigaraki, Dabi, Hawks and the way they’re drawn Hawks almost always is covering his mouth, whereas Dabi and Shigaraki have their mouth open.

In the same post katsubf points out one of the few times that Hawks has his mouth open is right before he’s made the decision to kill Jeanist.

Once again in a narrative of dissociation this is once again used to illustrate the disconnect between Hawks and his own emotions. Despite the fact that Hawks is doing this for what he considers to be good reasons, we also see him smile inappropriately like a villain right before deciding to stab Jeanist. Hawks can’t make his face match his true emotions. He smiles at this time because his long repressed emotions are coming to the surface.

That’s why Dabi and Shigaraki are maniacally laughing, and Hawks has to cover his mouth. That’s the difference between the repressed and the expressed. Shigaraki and Dabi make the decision to show how damaged they are and wear their scars on the surface. Shigaraki has his wrinkled up and scarred face, Dabi proudly wears his burn scars. When Dabi and Shigaraki feel something, everybody else knows about it. They’re way of dealing with their emotions has always been to express them. Whereas Hawks is such a considerably repressed individual that he’s never once expressed his true emotions in front of others. Shigaraki and Dabi have to express themselves, they find their identity in rebelling against everything that tells them to suppress themselves.

For Dabi and Shigaraki the bad feelings must always be expressed on the surface, even if it becomes someone else’s problem. Hawks response has always been the opposite, he always pushes the bad feelings deep inside himself and lies about them in hopes that if he represses himself perfectly the bad feelings will go away.

Hawks literally represses himself to such an extreme extent that literally nobody around him understands what his true feelings are, and Hawks is so dissociated from himself he probably does not have that good of an idea either. And this is what Hawks wants. This is what Hawks thinks he has to be in order to help others. Hawks has to distance himself from his own emotions, enver let his feelings get in the way, and do as he’s told.

However, the thing about repression is it doesn’t work. It doesn’t hold. His true feelings are going to come to the surface eventually, hence why we see Hawks smiling when he’s about to cut apart Jeanist, not because he feels happy about it in the moment but because Hawks is so insanely disconnected from his own emotions that he doesn’t know what he feels.

In summary, Hawks is mentally ill. He doesn’t cope with those feelings of mental illness in a good way either. There’s something very sinister about the people who Hawks chooses to target. This shouldn’t be a surprise there’s always been a dark edge to his character.

3. Hawks and Twice

If I were to characterize Hawks in a word I would say he’s avoidant. Hawks can’t let his emotions conflict with what he has to do, he doesn’t really know who he is, he can’t know who he is, so rather than dealing with those emotions he avoids them.

So, why target Twice? It’s because of all the people that Hawks has interacted with, Twice is the person who got the closest to Hawks’ true self.

It’s important to remember that concealment isn’t just something that Hawks does for the sake of his hero work, it’s also literally a survival mechanism to him. Hawks has to know everything and see everything, but nobody is allowed to get close to him, or know anything about him because just like the hero commission if they have that information they will use it against him.

Hawks has literally never even been taught to communicate in a healthy and open manner, he’s been taught “negotiation skills.” Hawks just isn’t a person, and Hawks just doesn’t allow himself to be a person either. Twice is someone who shares several parallels with Hawks. Both of them didn’t really have any agency in their situations. They both lost their agency due to poverty, Hawks lived in a terrible home before the heroes took him in, Twice had no relatives to take him in, lost his job, and became homeless.

However, unlike Hawks, Twice is someone very honest about himself and his desires. Hawks does not trust a single person, whereas what Twice desires the most is people he can trust and be trusted by.

Hawks and Twice both experienced a fall through no fault of their own, to the point where they lost agency and control over their own lives. They were both isolated from the rest of the world and only had themselves to count on, they were also both minors at the time.

However, they were taken in by different people. This is what the police and hero society as a whole say to people who’s fallen.

This is what Giran says to Twice who had taken a similiar fall. Even though by the time Twice lost his mind it was his fault a little bit, for deciding to rob, and try to live the easy life of crime.

The response of hero society is “Let them fall” whereas Twice was told that there are people in the world who are like him and suffering the same way, and he can trust them.

So in these opposite environments Hawks and Twice have internalized very different ideas. Those Hawks and Twice are people who have fallen, they came to the opposite conclusion. Hawks believes I should fall. Twice believes no one like me should fall.

When Twice encounters someone like him, he tries to reach out and accept them because he was saved by that same acceptance.

If you compare both characters the idea of self destruction runs rampant in them. Twice evens says several times, his greatest enemy is himself, he can’t trust himself anymore, he is symbolically beaten up by mulitple versions of himself. He has let himself fall again and again.

Twice also says as much, the choice to fall is also the choice to run away. Hawks avoids, Twice has already directly confronted who he is. He’s felt his pain while Hawks literally spends every second of his day not feeling his pain.

So you have Twice who believes the exact opposite of what Hawks does. Hawks wants to disappear and to make all of his personal feelings vanish underneath being a hero, whereas Twice is someone who states outright that the most important thing is understanding who you are.

What we see in Hawks and Twice’s confrontration is the culmination of an idea set up by Twice ever since chapter 115. Heroes only exist to save virtuous people and no one else. They exist to maintain a status quo that will always intentionally let people like Twice fall because dealing with them would be an inconvenience on everybody else.

Twice is Hawks’ literal opposite. He’s very aware of what Hawks is in denial about over himself. Hawks believes that he is on the side of heroes, on the side of saving people, but Hawks himself is someone who is not going to be saved by the current hero society, he’ll be used up and thrown out. Hawks is someone known for cheekily expressing his true feelings, but he actually always wears a mask at all times. Whereas Twice is someone who becomes his real self, when he puts a mask on, and Twice having no filter at all means he’s always expressing what he clearly thinks.

So what does Hawks do when he’s confronted with such a person? When he’s confronted with someone who wants what he wants, but is honest about it rather than lying to himself like Hawks always does.

Remember Hawks copes poorly. If I were to say his coping mechanism, I would say it’s “Do everything you can to maintain the lie.” Hawks is in spy mode 24/7 to the point where he not only has to convince everybody else around him, he must also take steps to convince himself.

Look at the way Hawks interacts with Endeavor. Endeavor is almost always threatening him, being angry and irritable, and he always suspects something. Even though Hawks deeply respects Endeavor and does things to help him, he’s treated poorly by the other, and it mirrors the way the hero system treats him as well. Even though Hawks is essentially a good person always sacrificing himself for others, he’s treated with suspicion, derision and forced to do thankless dirty work.

Twice from the start always treated Hawks the exact opposite. He treated Hawks as a person. He immediately saw who Hawks was as a person, and every time Hawks helped him out he thanked him for it. Twice is an unbelievably honest person in front of Hawks, and not only that unlike Edneavor and the commission he actually cares about what Hawks’ true feelings are and asks him about them.

We see as Hawks gets closer to Twice, in his mind Endeavor starts to turn away from him. Twice wants Hawks to meet Shigaraki because he knows Shigaraki would accept him and give him a place for belong. When Hawks is around Twice, there is someone who would accept his true self, and try to support him.

And Hawks hates that.

Hawks entire world view is built around always repressing himself, concealing himself, he can’t have his true face ever show. If you analyze the two people who Hawks has targeted so far there’s a common thread between them.

Jeanist, physically missing a lung and injured.

Twice, a dropout from society, quite literally insane and violent.

Hawks considers himself expendable. Damaged Goods. Someone who is eventually going to take a fall. Hawks ackonwledges that he’s going to be thrown out one day, but propels himself forward telling himself he needs to accomplish saving all the people he needs to save before that point.

It’s because Hawks has internalized the idea that he’s expendable, that he willingly sacrifices people like Jeanist and Hawks who are also expendable in the same way he is. He goes out of his way to target them and kill them to achieve his goals.

Hawks isn’t doing this for strictly good or evil reasons. There’s a deeply personal element to this for Hawks, and he’s essentially proving his own world view. This is a world where damaged people like Hawks have to get sacrificed for the sake of everybdyo else’s peace and well being.

Because Twice is so much like Hawks, it’s an act of self destruction. What Hawks really wants is to destroy the part of himself that Twice represents, the part that wants to trust others, to be accepted for who he is. Hawks believes if he permanently kills this part of himself he’ll finally be able to do what he needs to do.

It’s not really some great act of heroism, it’s incredibly unhealthy. Hawks is stabbing himself over and over because that’s what the hero commission has taught him to do.

However, there is still hope for Hawks. Twice has said he wants Hawks to meet Shigaraki.

Hawks has been set up to meet Shigaraki for a long time in the story. I doubt either of them will die before this meeting gets to take place just because it’s been brought up so many times. When Shigaraki finally does meet Hawks maybe there will be hope for him yet, because unlike Twice who was told that there are people like him in the world, and that damaged people can have friends too Hawks has still not been told these things. Hawks needs someone to tell him that he can’t let others trample on his feelings even for the greater good.

#mha meta #my hero academia meta #lov meta #twice #hawks #jin bubaigawara #takami keigo #dissociation #hawks meta #league of villains meta

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bookofmirth · 3 years

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The fandom crying about how elain can’t be friends with vassa cause she’s already friends with nuala and cerridwen, but didn’t scream about Feyre making friends with Mor and Amren when she already had alis. Or how no one bat an eye when feyre made friends with the inner circle and they became her family or when Nesta became sisters with Gwyn and emerie. I don’t see anyone comparing Rhys to Amarantha or Mor to Keir. No one is setting up parallel posts of Feyre and Tamlin.

No one is saying you can’t ship someone. You don’t need to set up a list of reasons why you do. Fuck if I wanted to ship Amren and the Bone Carver that’s my prerogative. No one should care. So why are certain shippers so fucking desperate to prove their ship superior by literally turning a ray of sunshine like Gwyn into a monster like ianthe? Why are they so desperate to keep elain and her mate separate that they would accuse someone of racism at the thought of elain being friends with lucien’s friends?

Like if you’re so secure your ship will sail why are you dying to tear apart other’s opinions and paint it as activism? This shit is incredibly transparent and I’m so fucking tired. The weirdness of certain shippers in the fandom pushing a narrative about real world issues to suit their ship needs to fucking stop.

I hear you, anon. It’s been a rough couple weeks. If anything, it seems to have gotten worse as more people finish reading, read the metas and theories that have been posted so far, and then react to those.

I wish that a lot of the stuff happening didn’t feel so performative and transparent. The takes I’ve seen about Gwyn and Lucien have been 👀 Mainly because they are based on behaviors we literally have not seen from them. And I know why, I know people want to find reasons for their ship to happen in canon. I get it. It’s just being taken to super weird and sometimes offensive places!!!

Both things you’re referring to were really upsetting to a lot of people, for multiple reasons, and the way they were handled was... idk, people are trying. I think we really are trying to exist in the same space, but sometimes we need to take our own advice, shut up, and reflect on what we’ve written. And I’m talking about literally everyone involved right now, whether I agree with them or not, and I am not exempting myself from this. Sometimes, the best option is to NOT ENGAGE. I have to remind myself of this constantly.

Some of the responses I saw to the post about Elain’s friend were brilliant, and the post comparing Ianthe and Gwyn made me ill so I’m glad that people said something (I actually had a little spike of panic reading your ask 😅) but there’s a point at which we have to back away for everyone’s sake. There’s no sense beating a dead horse, right? Fandom is something we willingly engage in. We aren’t winning any wars against oppression by proving that Elain’s friends are or aren’t racial minorities. There are real world things we can do if that’s really where we want to put our effort. Arguing about a fictional character’s friends ain’t it.

It’s one thing if people want to ship something, literally ship whatever the hell, that’s fine, but if we don’t like something else, then just don’t talk about it! It’s so simple! I spent over four years avoiding mention of e*riel even though I despise it, I know it’s possible!!!! It’s kinda hard to avoid talking about at the moment because of his POV but if I can do it, you can too! So maybe that’s what everyone needs to do. Just don’t engage with content and/or people you know will be upsetting.

But even with that, we have every right to talk about things we hate. I can and will tag that content appropriately. I have talked so much shit about how I hate Ianthe, or how Rhys made me mad in acosf, or how stupid that pregnancy plot was. So I guess it goes both ways. We are free to talk about the books in whichever way we want, but we have to be aware of how others may interpret what we’ve said, be in control of the content we see, and our reactions to what others write. That’s it.

Okay just to wrap this up, people are being downright nasty, no shipper group is exempt!!! I have seen shit flung everywhere and everyone is getting covered!!!! It just makes the whole fandom look horrible, even though I know there are so many positive, kind, wonderful people in it just trying to have a good time. It’s so complicated and I know a lot of feelings have been hurt but I hope that we can learn from this and be better.

#acotar #acosf #sarah j maas #fandom wank #ask #hope this made sense #it took like an hour #trying to think of how everyone feels #and I do mean EVERYONE #anon

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telehxhtrash · 3 years

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How important do you think religious imagery and themes will be in the future of HxH? I know you've pointed it out with Kurapika and mentioned some stuff in that last ask, but now I'm super curious. I might be misremembering, but wasn't the testing gate at the Zoldyck mansion also called "the gate to hell"?

I think religious imagery has always been important in HxH! There are a lot of things that are rooted in religious imagery, off the top of my head there’s Kurapika with a lot of his religious symbolism, there’s also Ging that encompasses buddhist philosophy, obviously Chrollo Lucilfer and his 12 apostles followers, Hisoka posing as the “Judas”, I think I read that Chimera Ant Arc’s story was based on something religious but I honestly can’t remember where I read this so take this with a grain of salt, there’s the whole Gon being reborn and saved by Alluka, Togashi also represented the Royal Guards on one of the volume covers using religious imagery (i can’t find the post i’m sorry!!) and the most important one to me so far is the entire Succession War arc that’s just religious symbolism galore, from Morena to Tserriednich to the general plot itself.

I promise I’ll make a post on this because I really really want to go over this, but I think religious imagery and themes are gonna be extra important this arc. I’m pretty sure the plot of succession war follows so closely St Brendan’s story that it’s possible to foreshadow the plot and outcome of the arc based solely on the religious imagery Togashi used. I don’t have the brainpower to go into detail rn, but if everything goes to plan, I should be able to finish writing it soon. But based on a few things, I think religious themes will help us predict the plot of succession war!!

I think religious imagery and themes in HxH are meant to sort of highlight the narrative of the story : healing, second chances, growth, rebirth. I think Togashi is picking religious symbolism to sort of elevate those themes and emphasize them if that makes sense? Religious imagery is usually used in HxH as a way to highlight the positive message of the narrative. It’s sort of like a second layer to emphasize the message of the story to me. Idk if that makes a lot of sense HAHA but yeah that + it’s also there to sort of be a basis for the plot of the current arc. But once again, if my theory on Kurapika’s fate is right (i promise ill write the post cuz i probably dont make a lot of sense rn), then the symbolism would be here to highlight the narrative of rebirth.

As for the testing gates, yes!! The guide says the gates are also called “the Gates to Hades”, and in japanese, 黄泉への扉, “yomi he no tobira”, “the gate to Yomi”. In Japanese culture, from my quick wikipedia search, Yomi is the land of the dead. It’s not Heaven, it’s not Hell, it’s the Underworld. This is where the deads go, and unlike Hell, they aren’t punished for their past sins, they just.... keep on rotting there forever. It’s the place where you go after you die no matter your past actions. The deads keep on living a gloomy and sad existence forever. So it’s not really religious imagery, but sort of cultural imagery? Kind of like Tanabata! I think it was meant to highlight that the place Killua is going back to is a dark terrible place, where if he stays, he’ll live a meaningless, gloomy, empty and aimless life forever. This denomination is meant to enhance the idea that the Zoldyck Mansion is a terrible place where Killua would keep on rotting forever.

I’m not too knowledgeable on this since literally all I’m saying about Yomi comes from a 10min google search but it’s interesting to note that this idea of reunification is also present in Yomi’s lore, since in legend, the god Izanagi undertook a journey to Yomi in hopes of retrieving the goddess Izanami that was rotting there. So culturally speaking, when Togashi compares the Zoldyck Mansion to Yomi, he also redirects japanese readers to this lore and this idea of someone undertaking a journey to bring someone else back from there, just like what Gon is doing!

Also, I’m not good at Greek mythology at all, so this is also the result of my googling skills once again, but it’s worth mentioning that Yomi is oftentimes translated as Hades, and Viz used this translation.

So this also takes us to Greek mythology, where there’s also a similar story involving Hades and a journey to the underworld... Orpheus and Eurydice’s story. I’ll let you read on the details if you’re unfamiliar with it, but basically, Orpheus took at trip to the underworld to save his wife Eurydice. Anyone would’ve died doing so, but Orpheus is protected by the Gods and managed to make it through various life-threatening situations. So while Orpheus didn’t manage to save Eurydice, there are still some elements that are similar to Gon and Killua’s situation in their story. It’s also funny to note that the greek underworld is kept by a three headed dog, Cerberus, just like the Zoldyck Mansion is protected by Mike, a huge dog, and there are also 2 other dogs guarding the Mansion. (seen on chapter 323)

And I love that this is intertwined with the Tanabata legend as well, the reunification of lovers.

So I’d say when it comes to the testing gates, Togashi played with japanese lore and greek mythology to reinforce the idea of taking a journey to save someone and being reunited after a rough journey. He managed to weave together Greek lore with the notion of the Underworld and Orpheus & Eurydice’s story and Japanese lore with Izanagi’s journey to save Izanami from Yomi and finally Tanabata, the legend of two lovers reunited by birds (Canary :3) after being separated.

I got kind of carried away but I guess my point is that Togashi loves to play with cultural and religious references to bring a second layer and emphasize his narrative, which is something that I greatly admire!!

Thank you so much for this ask I learned a lot about Japanese and Greek lore, so this was fun !! This was a bit messy so I’m thinking of maybe properly writing a post on the lores of the testing gates and how they intertwine because this is very interesting. I had no idea this was a thing until you sent me this ask and I had to look at Japanese scans!! So thank you!! I’ll definitely write my post on Kurapika & religious imagery, and I might put together this post on Yomi, the Unwerworld and Tanabata. Ty for this ask I hope i replied to your question!

#thoughts #my meta #meta #im tagging this as meta until i write an actual post

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stfudiscoinfernoed · 4 years

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idk if u can even answer this but; is jkr a terf? like do you think she’s specifically a terf as opposed to a regular old transphobe? she seems to use feminism to excuse or justify her hatred, but i hesitate to call her a terf bc i worry about that word being used to describe things that aren’t Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminism.

The semantics are “is she a terf or does she just support terfs,” but really her support really indicts her. JKR is a terf. I understand being hesitant to use that because it is often overused or used on people who are transmisogynists or transpobes but not radfems.

I’ll be taking her easy that she wrote and posted on her site called “J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues“ as evidence. I’m linking it so you can read the whole thing, but its an archive link so it shouldn’t give her hits or anything. I’ll put the analysis under a cut because it will be quite long.

JKR name drops three women in this article. The first is Maya Forstater. Forstater got fired for transphobic tweets, stating that “men cannot change into women” and implying women and girls will be harmed if trans women, calling them “male,” allowed into women’s changing rooms, prisons, etc. She went to court to try and say dismissing her over her beliefs was discriminatory and is attempting to get gender critical beliefs protected under the Equality Act 2010.

The second woman is Magdalen Berns, who JKR describes as an “immensely brave young feminist and lesbian.” Berns was a self described terf who called trans women “blackface actors” and endorsed the antisemitic conspiracy theory that Soros is funding the trans movement. Berns is likely the most vocally anti-trans of the women listed.

The third woman is Lisa Littman and JKR specifically mentions her theory of Rapid Offset Gender Dsyphoria, in which groups of adolescents seem to spontaneously come out as trans with no prior indications that they may have been trans or had gender dsyphoria. It’s important to note that the data to back up ROGD was collected from parents, not the youth in question, and from the websites 4thwavenow, transgender trend, and youthtranscriticalprofessionals, all gender critical or anti-trans websites.

All these women, including JKR, are heavily invested in criticizing the trans movement as going too far and harming women and girls as a result, though, with the exception of Berns, they may provide lip service to supporting trans people. This lip service is entirely disingenuous because it always requires trans people to transition in a fashion that makes them indistinguishable from cis people while also requiring them to allow themselves to be put in a separate category from cis people of the same gender.

Here are some select quotes from JKR’s essay:

Implying the trans movement enables predators and policing what counts as a legitimate transition: “The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass. A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law.”

Predators part 2: “But endlessly unpleasant as its constant targeting of me has been, I refuse to bow down to a movement that I believe is doing demonstrable harm in seeking to erode ‘woman’ as a political and biological class and offering cover to predators like few before it.”

Equating inclusive language intended not to misgender people to violent slurs: “Moreover, the ‘inclusive’ language that calls female people ‘menstruators’ and ‘people with vulvas’ strikes many women as dehumanising and demeaning. I understand why trans activists consider this language to be appropriate and kind, but for those of us who’ve had degrading slurs spat at us by violent men, it’s not neutral, it’s hostile and alienating.”

Implying trans men and afab nb people are just mentally ill women attempting to escape the horrors of womanhood: “The UK has experienced a 4400% increase in girls being referred for transitioning treatment. Autistic girls are hugely overrepresented in their numbers.”

part 2: “The more of their accounts of gender dysphoria I’ve read, with their insightful descriptions of anxiety, dissociation, eating disorders, self-harm and self-hatred, the more I’ve wondered whether, if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition. The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge. I struggled with severe OCD as a teenager. If I’d found community and sympathy online that I couldn’t find in my immediate environment, I believe I could have been persuaded to turn myself into the son my father had openly said he’d have preferred.”

Her particular emphasis on males invading women’s spaces and how trans activism is encouraging young girls to transition is all classic terf talking points.There is way more in her essay than these quotes, but I’d be quoting the whole essay if took every example of transphobia and fear-mongering.

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illegiblewords · 5 years

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Emet-Selch: Illness and Accountability

I’ve seen some posts where people are trying to argue that no compassion/sympathy/remembrance should be paid to Emet-Selch because of the total annihilation of multiple worlds he participated in.

People gonna feel how they’re gonna feel lol, but my opinion has a bit more gray I think. Buttloads of analysis and some psychobabble under the cut, spoilers up the wazoo.

- Obviously causing apocalypses and encouraging the worst qualities in people to that end is evil, unacceptable, and had to be stopped. Imo even if that ends in his death. That level of tragedy is horrific.

- Amaurot’s tragedy is still immense, and the nature of Amaurotine society and the stunted nature of its inhabitants (being unequipped to deal with loss, their own/humanity’s evils, or other forms of suffering) only further ensured that the unsundered would not be mentally or emotionally capable of dealing with the aftermath of that loss. A regular person would have been devastated. Amaurotines were left with zero ability to cope.

- Tempering makes it SIGNIFICANTLY worse. Emet-Selch is pretty blasé about it yeah, but he is not a reliable source on this subject. Consider that when lesser primals like Ifrit, Leviathan, or Titan temper people they need to be killed without question. They often aren’t even considered themselves anymore. Zodiark is to them what the sun is to idk Mars. Wouldn’t go so far as Mercury but it’s still an insane difference in power, intensity, etc. Lahabrea shows indications of being more heavily effected than Emet-Selch and Elidibus but honestly the only reason they’re not going “your words are my bread” 24/7 as per Ifrit thralls is probably specifically because they’re unsundered Amaurotines. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t hugely warped.

- Imo Emet-Selch has absolutely been driven insane. Not hallucinations necessarily, but honestly he’s right at the brink of that level. He has the ability to more or less take things from his head and materialize them externally, and he’s gone full throttle with that for Amaurot. He has a fake place where he can make believe things are still okay and his friends are still alive and he still has a home to go to. He also vomited out his PTSD nightmares and sometimes subjects himself to that experience again. It would not surprise me even SLIGHTLY if pre-Scions showing up he’d used that dungeon to try and figure out from his memories if there was anything he could have done differently, anyone he could have saved. The whole area existing basically indicates he’s developed a level of masochism. He’s been doing this for at least several hundred years if not more, if the Ondo are to be believed. EDIT: I may have misremembered and have timeline questions about this now. Need to investigate further to determine how long fake-Amaurot existed and in what degree of completion. Emet-Selch might be good about covering this up in conversation for the most part, but that doesn’t make it any less real. My opinion on very specific kinds of insanity, this one included, is that responsibility is somewhat alleviated and it becomes more the product of the illness/situation rather than a person being horrible. None of that means that the results are less terrible or that the person shouldn’t be stopped by whatever means necessary. It just means that the personal judgment on the perpetrator is different from what it would be if they were in total control of their faculties.

- All of the above said, the posts circulating where fans call him a little bitch and fantasize about saying they won’t remember read a bit like kicking someone when they’re down to me. Fictional situations yeah, but honestly there is not a single person in the scenario who isn’t suffering in horrific ways and doing that helps none of them. To me it reads kind of like an extension of revenge fantasies that seem to be popular these days, and honestly the revenge mentality is something I’m pretty exhausted with. This probably comes a lot from me having seen more angry people around in-general (not mainly FFXIV), and it just kind of makes me sad. Seeing how many fans were able to find compassion and mercy in them for Emet-Selch was a huge relief for me in light of that. It’s probably in part because of how obvious it is that he’s depressed out of his mind and dealing with several millenias worth of PTSD. The sleeping thing screams it pretty loud in a way I suspect a lot of people recognized.

- I seriously, seriously think that part of what was going on with Emet-Selch was on some level being aware that he’d become a monster and what he was doing counted as murder. The reason his reaction at the Ladder was shown and important is because it exposes his process of recognizing the reality of sundered people still counting and needing to actively remind/convince himself otherwise. It is way too neat and convenient for him to know that the way to get his world and people back is to sacrifice countless sundered through rejoinings, but none of those people are real anyway so it’s not a difficult choice.

The reality is way more ugly and horrifying, and my theory is he’s unable to deal with the weight of it. Knowing that not only were all the lives he ended real, often innocent people--they were pieces of his own beloved people would 100% destroy him past functioning. If he doesn’t have that denial mechanism in place he isn’t going to be able to survive, much less save anyone.

Another fan explained it really brilliantly imo with:

He probably has a mantra he repeats to himself, every time he feels himself starting to form an attachment to one or more of these pitiful, ephemeral beings: "They aren't truly alive, they aren't real. Things will be better when they are whole - better for THEM, even. This is for the good of us all..." Especially NOW; the sunk cost fallacy is STRONG. To stop now would be unthinkable. Even if they were willing to acknowledge the murders they've committed, if they were to cut things off all those murders would have been in vain, cruel sacrifices for no purpose. Eight worlds full of life extinguished, and that doesn't even include the horrendous loss of life on the Source with each Rejoining. They may feel they OWE it to those lost to see things through - and each new murder is another obligation on the pile...

- Sometimes situations can just be fucking tragic and sad for all involved. Anger is usually easier because it feels powerful, directed, and simpler while sadness tends to come from a more helpless, hopeless, and uncertain place.

- Even if on the off chance that Emet-Selch was totally sane, not compromised, and just plain evil with zero gray involved that would warrant sympathy... the people of Amaurot were innocent. Why be like “I’m not gonna remember shit :)” on those people? Imo heroes should remember ALL of the innocents lost... and the villains who couldn’t be saved too. It’s tragic when it comes to loss like that. Necessary sometimes, but still tragic.

- Separate but slightly related, I am side-eyeing the people who try to go “X is a stand in for Y real world genocide group and if you have sympathy for X you support Y you monster” SO HARD YOU HAVE NO IDEA. Not every evil empire, even the totalitarian and fascist ones, are stand ins for specific real world regimes. Understanding doesn’t equal agreeing with or endorsing. Having sympathy for individual suffering, especially in fiction, also doesn’t mean that you support the person’s ideology and goals. As a society we desperately need to remember the difference between understandable versus justifiable. :/ And for what it’s worth, Garlemald specifically has bits and pieces of MAAAAANY different real world authoritarian governments using a range of strategies and positions.

Disclaimer I got no ill will toward people who been jumping on the “IDGAF” train but I disagree and needed to get my thoughts out haha. Didn’t want to go into full-debate with people who might not be looking for that in the post itself and don’t want to discourage others from exploring their own interpretations! Just figured airing my opinions this way might be aight. Like I alluded to I’m also coming from a place where I’ve dealt with really intense moral policing by fans in the past (not within FFXIV), so that definitely shapes my perspective some.

#emet selch #ascians #amaurot #final fantasy xiv #shadowbringers

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