#absynthe’s meta

[absynthe--minded]

Hello! Can I respectfully request the promised lecture and Powerpoint about Fingon/Maedhros? I'll be honest here... I just do not see it, and I truly do want to understand. There are other relationships in the Legendarium that I really do think Tolkien deliberately and unequivocally coded as queer, and I've used all those same examples you list to back up my arguments. And I do see the parallels with Luthien and Beren (just as Sam/Frodo has parallels with that). But otherwise, I don't see a lot of queer coding. Which is not to say that I think it's a bad ship, just that I don't really see much in the text to support it or see much indication that it's what Tolkien intended. I would love to be convinced, though! I swear I'm not trying to bash Russingon or provoke anything. It seems like you have put a lot of thought and research into this, and I'm honestly curious, because this is a ship that has always puzzled me a bit.

First, thank you for asking! It’s always a pleasure to talk about my boys and my OTP to end all OTPs

I want to start what’s probably going to be a long series of self-reblogs by saying something that’s going to be important in the long haul: there is a difference between “I personally interpret this in a way that enhances the story, and it’s canonically compliant” and “I think and will seriously argue that Russingon is supported canonically by things that explicitly exist to point toward it being more than friendship”. The line can get kind of fuzzy, but it does exist, and the foundation of any good queer analysis is recognizing that.

So before I get into Sarah Waters, Mary Renault, and what the British legal system has to do with any of this, I’m going to make three lists.

Stuff That Probably Doesn’t Mean Anything, But That Is Fun To Examine From A Shipping Perspective:

Maedhros wears a copper circlet, Fingon wears gold in his braids

Maedhros abdicated the throne in favor of Fingon entering the line of succession

Maedhros stepped into a position of military authority after Fingon took the throne, working closely with him specifically to attack Angband after the Bragollach

Fingon is stated by Tolkien himself to have never married nor had biological children, and Maedhros never married nor had biological children either

Stuff That Is Ambiguous In Intent, But Is More Significant Than The Above:

Fingon clearly still cared enough about Maedhros that despite probably not knowing whether or not he burned the ships, he set out to rescue him alone in a display of loyalty to the rival royal line that put his priorities firmly in the “this nér whom I love” camp. It’s worth noting that Maedhros’s family are the reason that his sister-in-law is dead, the reason many of his own people froze to death, and the reason his brother is dead. Maedhros’s rescue, and forgiving him, is more important to Fingon than any of that. Why?

Morgoth’s battle plan for the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (as relayed in the Grey Annals in The War of the Jewels) involved forcing Maedhros and Fingon apart and trying to take both of them down simultaneously. Fingon was of course ultimately killed by Balrogs, and Maedhros avoided being killed by allies-turned-spies, but the goal was to keep them apart and incapacitate them both. Why?

Maedhros’s mental stability, willingness to exist in a society, passion for fighting Morgoth, and desire to curtail his brothers’ worst impulses all evaporate after Fingon’s death and Fingon’s death specifically. Why?

Maedhros and Fingon maintain a relationship with each other that is significantly more important to their actions than similar relationships between Finwëan cousins. Aredhel is never recorded as prioritizing Celegorm to the same extent, and Finrod only goes on a hunting trip with Maedhros and Maglor after things between their families are patched up. Why are they different from others in this way?

Stuff That Actually Matters In Analysis:

Fingon and Maedhros, Beren and Lúthien, and Frodo and Sam all share very nearly the same story at a crucial point. All three feature a situation where a rescuing party feared the one they loved was dead, discovered they were actually held prisoner by Sauron, went alone into peril, and used a song to find who they searched for successfully. Both Maedhros and Beren lost a hand in the course of their journey. Frodo lost a finger, and Sam cut the hand from the orc whipping him. All three pairs were rescued by at least one of the great eagles. Sam and Frodo have on-page declarations of love. Beren and Lúthien are the self-inserts of the author and his wife. This connection is not accidental; the author explicitly compares Frodo and Sam to Beren and Lúthien on the Quest for the Silmaril in the text of The Two Towers. If Maedhros and Fingon are being linked thematically with the central romantic relationship of the Legendarium, there is a reason why.

The Grey Annals tells us that Fingon rescued Maedhros “and their love was renewed”. That’s a direct quote from the text, not an exaggeration. This is more canonical proof of love than we get for some married couples (notably Fëanor and Nerdanel, who are never stated to love one another in the text).

Laws and Customs Among the Eldar explicitly states that half-first-cousins are allowed to marry without it being considered incestuous, so long as their parents aren’t close. That seems like an extremely odd standard, until you remember that there is an unusually close pair of half-first-cousins whose parents don’t get along.

(Obligatory note: the published Silmarillion does state that Idril and Maeglin are too close to marry. The published Silmarillion’s treatment of Maeglin is also almost certainly invented by Christopher Tolkien - Maeglin in the drafts written by JRRT himself is wildly different than how he appears when Chris writes him. Tolkien himself avoided making any such statements about cousin marriage and Turgon opposed Maeglin marrying Idril because he didn’t think it was a love marriage.)

The Grey Annals also discusses one of the histories of the green elfstone that Aragorn receives from Galadriel as a wedding gift - in this draft, it was made by Fëanor, and Maedhros gave it to Fingon. When Aragorn receives it, it’s been set in a brooch in the form of an eagle. Here we have another thing that passed between Maedhros and Fingon that is explicitly linked to romantic relationships between two characters echoing Beren and Lúthien. This is once again not accidental.

Fingon’s harp is almost certainly a reference to the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice, which also heavily inspired Lúthien pleading for Beren in Mandos. Yet again, we have deliberate intent by the author to position this relationship in a light that reflects romance above all else. You could even go further and point out that there are parallels between Thingol’s hostility toward Beren and Fëanor’s distrust and hatred of the Nolofinwëans. Túrin and Beleg, who get to kiss on the page, are also echoes of Russingon - early bliss marred by a kinslaying, a hopeless quest alone armed with a bow, an injury that results from freeing the captive party.

The fact of the matter is that none of this is accidental. Tolkien was deliberate in his worldbuilding, his parallels, his setups and his plot choices. There is a reason that Fingon and Maedhros are linked to so much romance, a reason that they are positioned on equal footing with other more clearly queercoded ships, a reason that it’s their relationship that shapes the First Age. When you accept that none of it happened accidentally, that allows you to broaden your scope, and look at Tolkien’s inspirations, his life, his friendships, cultural influences, and why he might have been so cagey about his M/M ships when they aren’t just important but vital to the text. (After all, Sam and Frodo’s happy ending comes after Sam’s time in heteronormativity, and Túrin and Beleg fall apart in a similar fashion.)

It’s just - it’s not crazy or insane or Shipper Goggles to say “these relationships matter, and the stories actually don’t make sense without them”. That’s all.

(Next time, if you like, we’re going to talk about historical fiction, and there will be lesbians.)

#RUSSINGON #silmarillion #silmarillion meta #absynthe’s meta #replies #tolkien #anon replies

[hopeless-eccentric]

re: Éowyn, I think the OTHER problem is that patriarchy is inconsistent in Tolkien’s universe.

Númenor seems to have developed it as an institutional force independently (LaCE’s whole section about Noldorin gender roles indicates that even if the author is a bit sexist the elves don’t seem to be, even down to an absence of a requirement that marriage be heterosexual*, and Haleth and Andreth respond to some gendered pressures but they don’t seem to be systemic) but challenges it through the legalization of absolute primogeniture. Despite this, Gondor and Rohan have their own versions of patriarchal norms, in contrast to Harad and potentially to Umbar. The Shire is written as a land of benevolent sexism, and yet Merry never questions Éowyn’s capacity to murder things with a sword when he realizes he’s been riding with a woman. So we’re left with this nebulous thing that obviously exists and impacts the life of one of the most significant female characters in the text, but that also clearly exists in a way that’s different from our own modern conceptions of patriarchy as all-encompassing and global even as the author isn’t thinking too hard. I wonder if a more feminist LotR written with, say, input from Joy Davidman, would have featured the non-Gondorian Aragorn calling out the patriarchy, but that’s simply because Tolkien tends to do those sorts of things in response to criticism (see Gimli).

* LaCE-compliant elvish marriage being queer-friendly is sort of my personal soapbox, I apologize

ok, so ill admit we're starting to edge out of my area of (if you can call it that) expertise since ive done the most research on the real-world mythological/literary connections within the Men (celts and anglo-saxons specifically, lord above ive read so many eye-splitting middle english poems in the last few months), but i would love to hear more about the stuff with gimli, which i havent heard about before!

also for the sake of transparency im about 2/3 of the way through the silmarillion until my local library's hold comes in so im a bit new here

so something ive done a lot of reading/writing on myself is that patriarchy in rohan/gondor is very closely tied to war and "warrior culture," i.e. this concept that glory via violence should be celebrated above all else and the association of this idea with masculinity. this is more prevalent in rohan than gondor, but tolkien writes that that the presence of a budding warrior culture in gondor is some sort of "fall" from a more peaceful (and implicitly wiser) culture of the past, which very well could be a reference to a more Elvish, numenorean culture (if im reading your ask correctly in assuming that numenor's culture isnt quite as patriarchal as we see in later ages)

so the thing that gets complicated is that these ideals of peace, wisdom, the arts, intellectualism, etc over war are strongly gendered. in The Feminine Principle in Tolkien, Menalie Rawls (who also saved my ass on that paper god bless her) suggests that a lot of the aforementioned traits associated with this "better" (i.e. aligning more with tolkien's internal moral compass for the book) numenorean-refugee culture are strongly in the feminine category, while the warrior culture stuff sits in the masculine category

so that leads to a bit of a weird point. i think a lot of patriarchy as we see it in lotr is related to this idea of the descendants of numenor falling away from their roots and becoming more hypermasculine (the thesis of Rawls's paper is essentially that tolkien's heroes are either expected to have an internal balance of gendered traits or an external one where they balance their gender expression with strong opposing forces to become their most heroic self, i.e. legolas and gimli, eowyn and faramir, varda and manwe, beren and luthien, etc) as opposed to their more balanced, and therefore, in the eyes of the book, "better" past. essentially, like the warrior-worship, patriarchy seems to be an adverse effect that centuries of war can have on a culture

the weird part of it is that i dont know if the whole fall from a golden age thing was supposed to include patriarchy as a symptom of societal decline or just had it coincidentally because tolkien personally associated femininity with peace. it feels like a bit of a chicken or the egg situation honestly

but, like most of tolkien scholarship, this all completely falls to pieces when you try to apply it to the hobbits. i would hazard a guess that the hobbits do a lot of weird shit that doesnt click with the rest of the world (i.e. golf, wristwatches, a mailman) because they're supposed to be the closest thing tolkien has to a normal english human reader in his worlds, so they probably dont have any views/cultural norms outside what someone in the rural england of his childhood would have. best i've got is a reason, but not an explanation

in certain pockets of the world, i think the culture of patriarchy is pretty well justified. however, i agree that there are some major inconsistencies. the hobbits, as per usual, break any theory you try to apply universally across the text. the crowning of aragorn, which is meant to represent gondor's rebuilding to its former glory, has very little to do with how women are treated (which does make me lean more towards the "patriarchy just came along with tolkien liking peace and not warrior culture while also gendering those two concepts" theory now that i think of it). if anything, femininity is treated better after aragorn's crowning (i.e. focus on healing, very gender-balanced king, rewarding small heroes, marrying an Elf, rewarding faramir, tree blooming again, so much celtic symbolism stuff i dont have time to get into but they were considered effeminate as well, etc). but that's how the concept of femininity is treated which is. yknow. different than actual living breathing women

so point is, 1) there's some insight onto why gender concepts look different among different cultures, especially with Men 2) hobbits confuse me

#thank you for the ask! #lotr #lord of the rings #lotr meta #absynthe--minded

[monstrousgourmandizingcats]

Okay what’s your second most controversial Silm take?

Morgoth is not an interesting character. Not because he is not interesting, but because he is not a character.

My feelings on Morgoth are basically those of the people in that one post about Palpatine (a post I think back to often). He truly is the devil, an archetypal or (sorry Tolkien) allegorical figure devoid of human qualities. Someone like Maeglin, like Darth Vader, is simply an evil man, who suffers from his own evil as evil men in real life do, but Morgoth is such a perfect symbolic stand-in for pure unleaded malice that he actually becomes less interesting if you treat him like Just Another Bad Guy.

So my lack of any interest in or patience for Angbang, the Black Book of Arda, and other Morgoth apologist type fandom currents isn’t really an objection to villain apologism in general, it’s an objection to trying to make a deliberately one-dimensional “idea of evil” into a proper character.

I’m bored at work. Send me asks about my hot takes and incendiary opinions.  

#j.r.r. tolkien #morgoth #meta #give me love give me memes #absynthe--minded

[arofili]

I actually AM curious to hear your mixed feelings on soul bonds, not least because you’re the first person I’ve ever talked to in the fandom who didn’t think they were incredibly awesome with zero downsides and I love hearing different perspectives. Also your meta is incredibly well done even if I often come to different conclusions? So. Consider this an excuse, I guess, to call out soul bonds?

i do think they are generally really cool and fun!! and my mixed feelings really comes down to an extension of my mixed feelings on shipping in general? being aro does that to ya.

i think, sometimes, soul bonds are written too similarly to soul mates for me, and i have a Known Thing against soul mate stories. the idea of relationships being “meant to be” rubs me the wrong way and i feel like soul bonds can (not always! but sometimes) confirm that narrative.

the intricacies that get me, too - are soul bonds confined to marriage? if so, that’s always going to feel weird to me as an aromantic person, even if it’s internally consistent within the story and otherwise “unproblematic” and that’s entirely a personal thing. but if not how do you distinguish? what counts a relationship “real” or intense enough to warrant a soul bond? can you choose to be married and not soul bond? once you establish a bond, can it ever go away? what happens when the person dies? what happens if you don’t want to have the bond anymore? what happens if you want to bond with someone else? (these aren’t questions meant to discredit the idea, just things that i think about and don’t see explored often.)

i see people talk about soul bonds and adjacent concepts (like mind melding or body sharing) in contexts of “it’s like True Love but even more” and any sort of relationship hierarchy is always going to be a turn-off (haha) for me. i already feel like i’m not going to be able to access True Love, and adding more exclusivity on top of that is making me..hm, less likely.

also, i saw in your response to my comment that started this conversation that you saw soul bonds as differentiating between mortal and elvish marriages - and i think that my take on elves is often a lot more human than yours! maybe that’s a failing in my own writing, but in trying to relate to tolkien’s elves i think i project human relationships, feelings, and processes where they needn’t be, necessarily. the inhumanity of elves is really cool, but i think my focus in that area is more biological than cultural.

but in general, the idea is really neat and i do enjoy reading about it, quite often! i like the concepts of being connected to someone telepathically, and being able to open/close that bond at will is especially interesting. but in my own fic i might shy away from it (or get into weird exceptions) because of my own hesitations.

so yeah, not so much of a meta calling out soul bonds but more of a personal squeamishness when it comes to placing incredibly high value on one specific kind of relationship. oops!

#djhdfjdh i have no idea if this makes Any sense or is even remotely related to soul bonds #oops! #abysnthe minded #answers #it just like...compounds ideas that i already find uncomfortable? if that makes sense? #silm #silm meta #my meta #kind of lmao #tmi anna #absynthe minded

[theneverfadinglands]

Fingolfin and Anairë, she was random. Anairë was the last one I made, because nobody looked right. I'm pleased with her after all. I imagine her looking distant and cold, but it's only first impression. However she looks stunning on throne.

Fingon, I think he look fierce and valiant. Determmined to do something foolish heroic today. He was the only one I had clear idea in my head how I imagine him. It took my long time to get him right. I then developed all the others from Fingon, Fingolfin and Lalwen.

Ok, I love all my Fingolfinweans, they are all perfect. Turgon look serious, he look royal and kingly. I plan Elrond to look quite similar to Turgon, but with darker skin - taking after Elwing's family.

Aredhel look joyous, smart and alert. She look similar to Lalwen. I really love her design. I can see her cantering her horse in forests chasing quarry, her hair braided and decorated with gems and blue feathers. Laughing fiercely.

Argon is the last one. Poor forgotten Argon. We don't have many informations about him. I hadn't any idea how he should look like, but I love how he turned out. He look quite dreamy and similar to Aredhel and Lalwen. I feel Fingolfinweans are quite outdoorsy family, good at hunting, dying valiantly, kinging. I think Argon is the artist of the family. He dislike his royal duties much like Maglor. He is introverted and doesn't talk much, good observer and talented at osanwë. I think he looks like painter. Painting mostly experimental surrealistic (and similar abstract styles) paintings.

Bonus: Idril and Tuor

Tuor always reminded me of Thor and he kind of look like Thor in my head. Big, strong, blonde man with beard and stormy eyes, but in my head he is more tan and his blue eyes pop out more. I love Idril's ethereal look, her innocent eyes. She look more like Elenwë's side of family. I don't have Elenwë yet, but I think she has eyes like Idril. I think Idril took from Argon in personality.

All my elves kind of start to look similar, but now I'm questioning if it isn't their intent? All elves suffering from same face syndome. All being gorgeous, but after a while you are happy to see man's face, because men are diverse. Elves are all so sterile and unreachable in their distant beauty. I wonder if elves envy men their diversity, all the body and face shapes and different coloring. Now after reading @absynthe--minded meta about POC Beren I headcanon him as black. I think Lúthien fell in love with his unique features and skin tone, because he was handsome and different, not looking like 1093764th random elf in Doriath. Be prepared for Beren I plan to make their family too!

#fingolfinweans #fingolfin #fingon #anaire #turgon #aredhel #argon #idril celebrindal #idril #tuor #artbreeder #tolkien #silmarillion #lotr #elves #noldor #nolofinweans

[ardaneedsmorepride]

Announcing Arda Needs More Pride, a bimonthly event aimed at celebrating LGBT+ fanworks in the Tolkien fandom!

Every January, March, May, July, September, and November, the 16th-19th of the month, we’ll be holding a four-day positivity event for all fanworks focused on LGBT+ characters in the book-centric Tolkien fandom. Headcanons, fanart, graphics, podcasts, meta - you name it, we’ll take it! Our long term goal is to foster an environment of positivity and pride in the fandom, since there’s not really anything aimed specifically at fanworks with LGBT+ characters or centering those creators. This is meant to be a low-pressure, low-stakes event; even simple moodboards or one-sentence headcanons are accepted.

The four days are “themed” to the four canonical Ages, with the 16th being the First and the 19th being the Fourth and finishing out the cycle. If you miss one month, you’ve got five more chances throughout the year to submit something, and we’re always checking tags and mentions!

Works meant to feature in the event should be tagged #ardaneedsmorepride or #arda needs more pride, or mention us @ardaneedsmorepride!

If you’ve got questions, our FAQ is here and our ask box is here. This event is being modded by @absynthe--minded and @thefifthbattle; if we need more mods we’ll put the call out!

#silmarillion #tolkien #lord of the rings #the hobbit #the silmarillion

[finweanladiesweek]

Hi! Ok so, I’ve been getting into the Silm and lore recently and all the community ships and all, and I’ve been wondering, why do people ship Maedhros and Fingon? I don’t mean to offend, and I’m sorry for asking you if you don’t want, or are not comfortable answering. I’m just curious because, yes, it’s a cute ship, but I’ve always found the cousins part unsettling. Sorry again if I said something bad. I guess it’s just a taboo thing for me.

Hi anon,

This question has been answered many, many times, so I apologize if the response I'm linking you is a little exasperated in tone.

@absynthe--minded has written an excellent meta on why people ship Russingon. It says everything I would have to say on this subject.

The tl;dr is "they are very homoerotic and have a moving love story and also the cousins thing isn't as big of a deal as you think it is." Though of course if it's not your cup of tea, that's fine, it doesn't have to be. But this question gets asked A Lot and not always in good faith so Russingon shippers do get annoyed by it.

Hope this helps.

-Mod A

#anon #answers #a little amused you came to *this* blog with this question #considering this is a blog explicitly Not About finwean dudes #but no harm done lol #mod a

[stormxpadme]

Okay since I’m now officially reviving my 12 years old LOTR fanfiction series in the hope of finally FINISHING that fuckin’ thing, I want more LOTR stuff on my dash to keep me inspired. I just really don’t like the Hobbit movies though, not my cup of tea, and while I like the books very much, my main interest is focused on the movies. Which tag do I follow for pretty caps, edits, gifs and a little meta of mostly LOTR 1-3? Yeah yeah yeah, I’m 15 years plus too late, but I can’t be the only one left here ... Anyone good a good blog recommendation? @absynthe--minded​, any idea?

#lotr #lord of the rings #and all tolkien lore #orlando bloom #viggo mortensen #halp a gal out #fanfiction is mostly aragorn arwen legolas oc centric #many elves involved #glorfindels son i created among them #lil faramir and eowyn on the side #i've started with glorfindel's son being born #went from legolas meeting his significant other #to the ring war #a crisis for aragorn's new rule after #and now we're 20 years after the fourth age began #plan is to write another story or two when they deal with the last of mordor #and the dead marshes #and then another jump forward to legolas and the rest leaving middle earth #after aragorn's death #like i got that whole thing down in my head #i just need something to carry me inspired through nanowrimo #this is one of my longest ass series #we're easily at a million words already #this deserves an ending #this thing is so old i still have my jason isaacs as thranduil fancast in place #and you can bet your ass that's not gonna change

[squirrelwrangler]

Meta question. Elves, elven cultures and affection, physical contact. Your opinion on those.

Not the strictest adherent to LaCE but I like it more than most fans- I like elves that are almost all strictly monogamous and where I never have to deal with adultery fics. Now as @absynthe--minded recently stated in an almost identical meta post, that means we can remove that very recent Western cultural aversion to displays of physical affection or even contact. “There was only one bed” - well if you’re in most Western historical periods or fantasy based off them, especially medieval, that’s the norm for families and others. Friends are crying and hugging each other all the time. And there doesn’t seem to be a divide between mortals and elves on that. Will have to look back through the Silm and Lord of the Rings, but I don’t recall a ‘elves uncomfortable to be hugged by these humans’ schtick. Now for me- I do see mortal men as having a stronger nudity taboo than elves.

But bros don’t need to be sitting six feet away from each other in a pool.

As for sex- and especially public sex- is something I do play around with in my Ingwë fics - because it is a private act between two individuals - but in Ingwë and Ravennë’s case are operating on different political demands and a slightly older cultural matrix and thus why Ingwion gets embarrassed (okay he gets embarrassed really because of frequency).

Now the question of corporal punishment in child-rearing practices of both men and elves and if there are differences..ooh that might be a good if thorny subject to explore. Who spanks their kids and who thinks it’s not done?

[absynthe--minded]

There’s this thing that ends up happening with the women of Arda in perhaps the funniest example of Tolkien’s prejudices getting in the way of the story he’s trying to tell, where the woman who exists on the page and the woman he’s talking about in the narration are almost two completely different people.

Like, Éowyn is angry and bitter and violent and perpetually depressed, and he writes about her as if she’s a poor suffering maid in need of a savior. Melian is a selfish, mind-controlling, morally grey nightmare goddess, and she gets to be The Sad Queen. Galadriel is a shrewd politician who aligns herself with racists and imperialists to get what she wants (a country she can rule in her own right) who’s literally only classifiable as “good” due to her actions aligning with the goals of actually good people, but somehow she gets relegated to a flawless moral center. Míriel gave the greatest part of herself to Fëanor, and he’s egotistical and mercurial and dramatic and holds grudges and demands perfection from everyone, so what does that say about her?

idk I just think it’s hilarious that JRRT seems to have written these people by accident (see: the continued efforts to morally whitewash Galadriel and make her a better person) and then only realizes he’s gone beyond pure maidens and loving mothers once he comes back for a second draft

#tolkien #silmarillion meta #absynthe’s meta

[diversetolkien]

more questions

Just for those who’re following or just reading, this is a continuation of THIS META regarding Galadriel and colonization. I would recommend reading that before you read this!

@absynthe--minded  Sorry I’ve taken so long to respond. This week has been a very busy week especially since the semester is coming to an end. I’ve also been dealing small health issues, so I wasn’t able to answer this as quickly as I would have liked.  That said, as before, your questions are bolded, while mine are not!

first off, thank you so much for your responses! I’m glad to be able to discuss this in a way that doesn’t involve everybody getting angry, especially since one of my goals at least is to achieve a better understanding of other perspectives on a somewhat problematic source material. I’ll concede immediately that you’re right, and that whether or not Galadriel was actually ruling she was looked to as a person of authority, and she benefited from being seen that way. And I genuinely want to discuss, not attack - my end goal is to try to reach a better understanding of your view of her character, which is something I’ve found both worth my time as a fan and difficult to grasp because of various canonical elements. Hence my continued discussion, which is meant respectfully and considering you as a worthy and equal academic partner.

You’re very welcome :) I try not to open up my blog to certain types of anger, mainly just respectful discourse and debate, as I believe (according to the situation) that this is the best way to sort these things out. I think, as i said in my previous meta, Galadriel falls victim to the narrative, and it’s entirely possible that she did not even know what she was doing. That she thought she had “grown”, but in actuality, had only assimilated into a colonialist society as one of the colonialist themselves. I think this is a prime example of her privilege, and the kind of thing that we tend to see in examples of white feminism today. That, or she did know. I’m stuck in between the two, as I know she was genuinely trying to do better. That said, on to your questions! :)

second off (as a partial response to your response) I actually think part of the Hot Topic-ness of Galadriel stems from whether or not you see specific sub-groups of elves as indigenous populations or as different groups of one whole population simply scattered by time. There’s a solid canonical argument to be made that elves never actually belonged in Middle-Earth, and that the Avari made the wrong choice in not going to Valinor even though they were exercising their free will.

What makes them indigenous is the fact that they believe they belong in Middle Earth, and this is shown in the case of both Mirkwood and Loth Lorien where the elves chose to stay at the dawning of the 4th age. They may not belong in Middle Earth on the basis of them being elves, but clearly the Silvan see it as their homes, as they chose to remain in Middle Earth.

And we need to make a distinction between indigenous and belonging, because those should not be used interchangeably. They are indigenous because they were born in Middle Earth and considered it their home, whether or not they belong there does not negate this. And because they believe they are indigenous, they believe that they belong there--which is clearly seen in their actions.

Whether others consider them indigenous to the land is beside the point, honestly. It matters what the marginalized group considers themselves and their home.

And I hope you don’t mind me using real life allusions but I believe it makes it easier for everyone following this thread to understand. I’m African American, and there have been arguments since slavery has been abolished that my people don’t belong in America, and that we’re not indigenous to this land. But, we’ve made this our home, we’ve build our traditions and customs here in America. That said, I consider myself indigenous to this land because I was born here and because my ancestors have made their culture here for the past 200 years, and my history and heritage is very much ingrained in the American south.

Now there are those who say I don’t belong here, there are those who are say I belong in Africa, but they’re not apart of my marginalized group, so they don’t necessarily have a say in that. The same thing can be seen with Native Americans, and immigrants from Latin America.  

The Silvan elves consider themselves indigenous to Middle Earth, they consider themselves belonging to Middle Earth, and we see this in their refusal to go to Valinor. At this point what others believe doesn’t necessarily matter considering it doesn’t change how the elves view themselves, and how that plays into their narrative.

What makes their story and Galadriel’s colonization is based on how they--as the marginalized group--perceives themselves, not how others do.  I think when we try to introduce this other debate regarding whether or not they belong in Middle Earth, we tend to look at it from a perspective that is not that if the Silvan elves, and consequently lose their voice in the midst of things.

That said I’m not denying that there’s a canon debate going on in regards to whether or not the elves belonged in Middle Earth or not, because I believe it.

And I think we can both sit here and argue for opposite sides, but that’s not what the point of this post is about.

It’s about Galadriel and colonization, so let’s try not to derail it by introducing another debate.

Admittedly, this does require a shared viewpoint with Tolkien (that while the Valar occasionally made incredible mistakes their end goal of “preserve all of these elves from the passage of time” was the right thing to do) and it requires an assumption that the Valar are inherently benevolent, but the argument does exist. (I think the reader’s perception of this generally falls under their opinions of religion as a whole? At least that’s what it’s been in my experience.) And Galadriel’s use of Nenya prolonged Lothlórien’s life as a viable civilization, protecting it from the fading that realms like Mirkwood faced over the centuries. This doesn’t mean I think you’re wrong, because it doesn’t, at all. I’m just confused because some of your responses seem to treat the active preservation she took part in during her time in Lothlórien as inherently bad for those living there. Especially because fading wasn’t something she and the other Noldor introduced, it was a natural consequence of the passage of time that all elves were inherently subject to as long as they remained in Middle-Earth. Basically I think that if we ought to blame anybody for it, we ought to blame Eru - the One seems to be responsible for the changing nature of the world. Tolkien himself is also guilty here, since Arda is our world and that necessitates the removal of fantasy races.

While Nenya preserved Loth Lorien, in the long run, it destroyed it. I don’t deny that it helped the realm, but in the end it completely ripped the realm of life, to a point where it could not even be replenished. Since we’re looking at this in terms of the effects of  colonization, i’m going to talk about why it’s bad in terms of colonization and racism, by of course, using real life allusions.

Consider Europeans coming to the certain indigenous lands and promising to keep them safe from warring tribes (We see this in Africa during the slave trade, and in certain indigenous cultures during colonization in the Americas and Western Expansion). They protect the indigenous tribes for a while, i’m not denying that. But it always ends with them leaving the indigenous populations scarred and drained. Yes, the Europeans came over and protected the tribes from warring tribes, but in the long run, they stole resources, eradicated cultures, and left the land in runs. Not unlike Loth Lorien.

More recent examples would be the Civil War in Rwanda with the Hutu and Tutsi peoples of Rwanda. I won’t get too into it, but basically the UN came and promised to help the Tutsi people, and for a while they did--they defended the Tutsis. But abruptly, they left when the Rwanda was in a state of chaos. They not only made things worse, but left the people they’d promised to protect to defend themselves. It wasn’t until the rebellion (of Rwandans) stepped in that things started getting better.  It’s the same concept with promising to help, but leaving when the realm or society is in a state of chaos, as Loth Lorien was.

I’ll use the reconstruction of the South post slavery as another example. Because the South was in such bad shape after the the CIvil War, and racism was at an all time high, the government sent in the army to protect freed slaves from violent racism (as well as to rebuild the South). In the short run, they helped protect the freed slaves from racism and even began rebuilding the South, but like the UN for Rwanda, and like the Europeans for certain indigenous tribes, they abruptly left, leaving the people to fend for themselves (or in certain cases, go with them to a land where they would face discrimination).

We can even see this in warfare today. Countries go overseas to fight and “protect” the other citizens, only to leave when the fighting is done and when the country is ruined.

We need to realize that there’s this history of privileged groups coming into marginalized communities and offering to help and protect them, and while they do this for a short while, they essentially ravage the land and people at the end. This is the case of Galadriel and Nenya.

In the short run, she helped them, but in the long run, she destroyed their homes and offered them an awful ultimatum as we discussed earlier.

And it’s not like their realm couldn’t have survived without the Ring. I mean Thranduil’s realm is a prime examples of a Realm surviving without the power of a Ring. Yes, it wasn’t perfect. But as far as we know Sauron’s forces never actually entered the actual palace, it was still safe enough for the King and his people to have picnics in (though arguably that was when things were better), and in the long run Mirkwood was replenished. So yes it went through hardships, but in the end it worked out for both the realm and the people.

Galadriel stepping in and “saving” Loth Lorien only to suck the life out of it afterwards is a prime example of colonization. The ends do not justify the means in her case.  

I think a lot of the controversy over “is this colonialism” (at least in predominantly white circles) comes from this sense that all elves are equal if culturally different. They have the same religion, they have languages stemming from the same family, they have cultural outlooks and opinions similar enough that marriages between different groups don’t seem to cause a lot of problems with regard to cultural blending. Also I’m curious as to where in canon it suggests that Silvan elves will be oppressed in Valinor, because what we see in the Histories and the published Silmarillion is that different people groups established their own cities in different geographical locations, with their own governments and sovereign states. If I’m missing something, I want to know, because that would change my entire opinion on whether or not the Valar-offered chance to leave was a good or a bad thing.

I think a lot of this has to do with the definition of oppression, and how I see it vs. how you see it. Depending on who you are, oppression is taking people’s right away completely. Others, such as myself, believe it to be the society I live in, due to increased racial discrimination and injustice fueled by racism. It’s like living with a constant target on your back based off of things you cannot control, and it gets even greater than that.

And off the bad I won’t say that there is strict sentence or paragraph saying  “They’ll be oppressed” more so implication leading up to it. The fact that we already have a group that is deemed less wise and more dangerous tells us this, because this is usually how oppression begins. With one group, usually marginalized, being deemed as less than the privileged group. So we already have an unfair and unjust prejudice against these people, not taking into consideration why exactly they are like that.

Juxtapose this with Loth Lorien, that’s ruled by Sindar and Noldor who impose their traditions on the Silvan, that’s not considered “less wise and dangerous”. So we have this idea that in order to be socially acceptable, “safe and wise” you need to be ruled by elves that are not of your kind, who impose their own culture and ways on you.

That’s oppressive.

Coupled with that, we already have this model where elves who are not of Silvan descent feel they are entitled enough to rule over Silvan elves, which implies that they see these elves as below them,  and these are elves coming straight out of Valinor believing this (and not entirely, because we have the Sindar, but with Galadriel, we now have Noldorian eves imposing their culture onto others), and benefiting from an establishment that colonizes other societies.

The mere idea that you can rule over people who are not your own implies that you see yourself above them, and that crosses into oppressive territories. And when Valinor itself already has aspects of oppression (main case being Feanor, the Valar believing they have the right to take his creations from him, and going as far as hallowing them. Essentially he doesn't even have the right to his own things, but I don’t want to open a Feanor debate, I just want to use that as an example) that Galadriel falls into, it’s not unsurprising to believe that this would continue with the Silvan elves in Valinor. They were going to be going with her to Valinor, and with Silvan being considered less wise and dangerous without being ruled by Noldor or Sindar, I feel like the situation we see above (in that someone would have to be ruling them) would have occurred again, only worse though, because it’s the Valar we’re dealing with. This is not meant as a defense of Galadriel. More than anything it’s meant as a “how do you interpret these various canonical elements? because your perspective is one I don’t see intuitively and I want to understand” chain of questions.

No, I understand that this is not a defense of Galadriel because at this point it’s nearly impossible to do so. And I understand you want to see the evidence as to why I and others think like this. I hope these answers sufficed, and if you have any other questions, feel free to ask :) As stated before though, I would not like to bring any other debate that’s not strictly related to this topic, only because I don’t want this post to be derailed.

#galadriel #lotr #loth lorien #valinor #colonialism #jrr tolkien #submission

[monstrousgourmandizingcats]

1, 9, 20

1. Tell us about your current project(s) – what’s it about, how’s progress, what do you love most about it?

I have three current projects, one of which I’m near the end of, the other two of which are long-term.

The one I’m near the end of is “Dog Star”, a historical-xenofiction novella about Laika, the first and most famous of the Soviet space dogs. The POV switches back and forth between her and a composite character of the various scientists and veterinarians who worked with her, in the lead-up to her launch on Sputnik II in November 1957. It’s also an allegory for clerical abuse, with a lot of attention paid to the ways the humans around Laika attempt to situate and justify their treatment of her politically and ideologically.

The long-term projects are the two that you can read about here! The second is one you’ve probably heard about at some point from Absynthe as well.

9. Are you more of a drabble or a longfic kind of writer? Pantser or plotter? Do you wish you were the other?

For some reason I find short concepts easier for fanfiction and long concepts easier for original fiction. “WIP #1″ from the post I linked above (the actual title is Portal of the Sky) broke the million-word mark years ago, wheareas only one of my fics on AO3 is longer than four chapters. I’m capable of either pantsing or plotting depending on the story and I’m genuinely not sure which I prefer in the abstract; what I can tell you is that Absynthe, who I’m pretty sure is a plotter, made sure that “WIP #2″ (the actual title is Silhouettes) was very well sketched out before we put pen to paper.

20. Tell us the meta about your writing that you really want to ramble to people about (symbolism you’ve included, character or relationship development that you love, hidden references, callbacks or clues for future scenes?)

Already answered!

Fun meta asks for writers

#writing #give me love give me memes #peredhel

[arofili]

Fornication and Relationships among the Eldar

[FaRE]: A Meta Analysis of LaCE

AO3 version of this can be found HERE!

I've been wanting to write this since like. 2016. and i finally got around to it thanks to the B2MeM prompt for "The universality of Laws and Customs among the Eldar" (O73) on the Silm Fanon Inversion card & @absynthe--minded‘s encouragement! thanks y'all!

Disclaimer right at the top: I may have gotten a few details here and there wrong. Blame fanon for that - this is as much an exploration of the fanon around LaCE as it is the actual document Tolkien wrote.

This meta can be shortened to "FaRE," mirroring the acronym "LaCE," but my roommate @berbss suggested the alternate title "Flaws and Customs among the Eldar" which is VERY funny and I needed to mention it.

CWs: lots of cursing, frank discussions of sex and sexuality, brief mention of rape, frequent insults to JRRT, obstinate queerness on the part of OP

Okay, so LaCE can be fun for plot reasons, and I want to preface this by saying that everyone's interpretations of this document are valid and I don't mean to shit on your headcanons, but let's be real! The whole idea that sex=marriage for elves is some real Catholic bullshit and Tolkien should be ashamed of himself.

The thing about LaCE, for me, isn't just "that's stupid and I want to write about elves that fuck" (though that is also true and valid). LaCE is is buckwild in a lot of ways, and doesn't make a whole lot of sense historically or culturally.

First of all, this is a Law and/or Custom of the Eldar. Who set down that law? When? Why? If it's a custom, does that mean it's not hard and fast for everyone? And it says /right there/ that it's a law/custom of the ELDAR, which leaves out the Avari entirely.

After all, another part of this law/custom is that marriage includes vows before Manwë, Varda, and Eru, none of whom are holy to the Avari. But the Avari are still elves; does that make them heathens in Tolkien's eyes? I mean, yes, definitely, but still! The Avari have no reason to follow this particular custom and were probably doing whatever the hell they wanted with their bodies and relationships.

But back to the Eldar. This rule stinks of the Valar to me. Eru was never that direct about what he wanted, and the Valar messed up all the time, especially when it came to elves. The Ainur don't need to procreate, after all, so why would they understand sex? Defining it in ways that they could divide into "right" and "wrong" is very much in character for them. And if it's a rule set down by the Valar and followed obediently by the Calaquendi...that raises a whole lot of questions about the Exiles.

Sure, maybe they followed that rule in Valinor, and the elves who live there might still follow it as well. If this law includes the "only one spouse" rules, we have good evidence that Finwë and his generation, at the least, were subject to it. But Fëanor and the other Noldorin Exiles forsook the Valar by returning to Middle-earth. Why would they keep this law if they are abandoning so many others?

Fëanor hated Indis, though, and might have wanted to cling to this law because of that. Or maybe not, and whatever he thought about marriage laws, his kin blamed the Valar for most of their troubles and this is another way to defy them. If you're partial to Russingon, Maedhros was already up to some illicit shit, and you can't tell me that ALL the Fëanorians were celibate in Beleriand. Like, c'mon, you know that Celegorm got some. (Or maybe not, your headcanons are VALID!)

The Arafinwëans and Nolofinwëans are direct results of a second marriage and the ~bending~ of marriage laws, if not their breaking. I wouldn't be surprised if they were willing to overlook this... though maybe Galadriel, at least, stuck to the rule and passed it onto her subjects in Lothlórien later. (Or not...this one's for you, Galadriel/Melian shippers. Also, tangent: do you really think MELIAN really stuck to this law? Come on, she married an elf! She doesn't give two shits about the Valar and their laws about Ainur not having kids or whatever the fuck!)

We've established that the Vanyar and the other Valinorian elves were all about this law, questioned whether the Noldorin exiles would stick to it, and determined that the Avari had no reason to ever start following this custom. But what about the Silvan and Sindar elves who started the journey to Valinor, but never finished?

We know elves had familial relationships in Cuiviénen; Elwë and Olwë were brothers, for some reason. But the first elves just kind of...HAPPENED. Did this first generation of elves just not know to procreate until the Valar set down laws for them? Sounds fake. Maybe Elwë and Olwë weren't first generation, but literal blood brothers, and just happened to be among the most important leaders later. Or not, who really knows.

Elves had to figure this shit out on their own before Oromë stumbled across them. Maybe the Eldar adopted the laws along the way, having sex and children along their long journey to Valinor. In that case, the Silvan and Sindar elves didn't have much of a reason to stop following the custom, because they never outright rebelled, just kind of drifted away. To me, this seems like the most plausible reason that the law endured.

But over the Ages and Ages of time separated from the beings who set down the law, I can't believe that no one questioned it. What happens if elves have sex but don't want to be married? What happens if they have sex and do want to be married, but don't say the vows? Does it not count, then? Maybe not in the eyes of the Valar, but how fussed are the Silvan and the Sindar about conforming to the Valar's every whim? ESPECIALLY the Silvan, who never saw the Valar's power firsthand in the War of Wrath.

And what about the Sindar elves who followed Oropher to Eryn Galen? If the Silvan elves there had long since abandoned the tradition, would this custom get lost in Mirkwood when Oropher's people assimilated (mostly) into Silvan culture?

And this is all assuming the custom developed while on the journey to Valinor! If it didn't get set down until they arrived in Aman, only the Calaquendi ever followed this practice. How, then, would the rest of the elves learn of it? Noldorin colonialism? (Looking at you, Galadriel.) Or would they not even bother with it, whatever they think of the Valar in general?

I've written a lot already, but you know what? Let's go deeper.

What about elvish interactions with other species? There are canon elf-mortal relationships, but you can't tell me that the ONLY elf-fuckers were Tuor, Beren, and Aragorn. Sure, maybe we only KNOW about the high and mighty elf princesses and their scandalous affairs, but the Noldor were more than their princes. There were normal people there, too! Fantasy Classism dictates that only the famous relationships got written down, with whispers of others like Aegnor/Andreth and Mithrellas/Imrazôr, but come on. There were more that happened, and more peredhel than just Elrond and his family. And y'all know I'm a slut for elf/dwarf relationships! Tauriel/Kíli may be a PJ Original but like this is NOT a new idea...it's got to have happened, right?

How do these interspecies marriages work? Mortals can fuck an elf and not be married. Would the elf be married to them, but not the other way around? (I know I've seen a Gigolas post about that...) That doesn't sound legit. This whole idea is full of holes.

Besides, who says the Valar kept this law? Aside from cultural drift, it's such a normative way of looking at relationships. I'd like to think the Valar can learn and grow, especially given the disastrous rebellion of Fëanor. Let's talk polyamory for a bit: so many problems could have been solved if Finwë/Míriel/Indis could have been allowed! With the Finwëan fiasco, you think the Valar would reassess what they did wrong there!

What counts as "sex" for the purposes of sex being the same thing as marriage? Just PIV? There's a lot of sexual acts outside of that narrow definition. Is penetration the key? Because there's ways around that. Or is it orgasm? Because that doesn't necessarily require another person. If it is just PIV, I guess that would make gay elves unable to marry, but like... come on! That's some real bullshit, even for Tolkien!

What about asexual elves? Sex-repulsed elves? I've seen people claim that all Tolkien elves are demisexual, which...I have issues with, but there definitely elves with complicated relationships to sex! Are sexless marriages not valid? Even if they include vows? Consummation laws are not great, y'all...

And what about aromantic elves? Elves who have nonromantic sexual relations? Is that unholy and evil? I know Tolkien wanted his Favorite Special Perfect Species to not have any lust or sexual sin, but this is just unrealistic. Besides, Tolkien wrote flawed and fallen heroes all the time, just look at Túrin and Maedhros and Fëanor! Even IF LaCE was meant to be taken as literally as we sometimes take it, his own world and characters break his rules frequently.

What about nonromantic and nonsexual relationships? Those get brushed over a lot irl, but Tolkien's works are full of them. Just look at Frodo & Sam, probably what he intended Maedhros & Fingon to be, Legolas & Gimli, etc... Some of those people will want their relationship formalized, maybe through calling it marriage. Does that not count? Is Tolkien really going to say that these relationships he writes, often at the core of his stories, are suddenly lesser?

I can tell this is just veering into my politics around relationships in general, so let's get back on track:

The important part of this whole custom should be the love and intent behind the vows, not the act of sex. Elves can get married if they're on the run, if need be, so it's not the actual ceremony that they value. What the people involved want should be enough to make it formal in the eyes of each other and of the Valar, if that's something they care about.

When it comes down to it, sex equaling marriage is a custom and/or a law, like it says in the title of LaCE. It's not an inherently biological trait...which makes the whole thing about how elves can "see" if someone has gotten married SUPER weird. Maybe what they can really see is the marriage-bond, visible through some funky kind of magic - I could buy that, and I've played with the idea in fic before.

But I maintain that sex CANNOT equal marriage, even by Tolkien's standards. Rape is clearly not marriage, as we see in the case of Celebrían. Elvish marriage has intent and ritual behind it, certainly; that is what makes it a custom. To me, this whole idea feels like a mistranslation or misconception that occurred when mortal scholars tried to understand elvish customs.

At least, that's the in-universe explanation. The out-of-universe explanation is just that Tolkien is a fucking coward.

#laws and customs among the eldar #silm #silmarillion #b2mem #silm meta #my meta #tefain nin #b2mem 2019 #bingo bonus #fornication and relationships among the eldar #absynthe minded #berbss #meta #tolkien meta #my fic

[101dmpl]

Dla tych z Was, którzy interesują się sprzętem używanym przez depeche MODE na trasie dziś kilka cukiereczków z tym związanych. Potraktujcie to jedynie jako wstęp do dłuższych analiz, które dopiero nadejdą.

Troche to zaskakujące, ale Panowie aż tak bardzo nie zmienili swojego oprzyrządowania (tego widocznego) na trasę. Czekam jeszcze na zdjęcia zza kulis sprzętu który napędza i wspomaga grę depeche MODE na koncertach. Póki co jedynie podstawowy front end.

Andy Fletcher

Martin Gore

Dwa klawisze firmy Roland model Edirol PCR 800.

Guitars of Martin Gore

Gitary i osprzęt gitar – czekają na opis i pełną identyfikację, choć jak do tej pory wszystkie wiosła są doskonale znane z poprzednich tras.

Andy Fletcher

Dwa klawisze firmy Roland model Edirol PCR 800, oraz Acess Virus Polar z nastawami bassowymi.

Zarówno Martin, jak i Andy mają po dwa Edirole, ale tak na prawdę mają po jednym. Ponieważ oba klawisze pełną dokładnie te same funkcje u obu. Drugi klawisz ma służyć tylko po to, aby był zapasem, gdyby padł przedni.

Co to oznacza? Ci co ich podpatrzyli za klawiszami twierdzą, że obaj Panowie wcale tak dużo nie grają. Dotyczy to zarówno Martin’a, jak i Andiego. Tylko w jednym przypadku na 10 dało się zauważyć, że używają górnego i dolnego parapetu do gry równocześnie. To są obserwacje po dotychczasowych koncertach promocyjnych. Prawdziwą skalę poznamy, jak zespół ruszy w trasę.

Peter Gordeno

Peter Gordeno

Jeden Acess Virus TI, oraz jeden Roland SP RD 2000, plus jeden jeszcze nie zidentyfikowany.

Peter Godreno jako jedyny nie ma zdublowanego sprzętu. Jego główny klawisz to Acess Virus TI, a Roland SP RD 2000 używany jest jako jednostka sterująca, oraz do wykonywania pianinkowych akompaniamentów dla Martina, a może i Dave’a na tej trasie. Próbkę gry na Rolandzie mieliśmy okazję zobaczyć jakiś czas temu w serwisach społecznościowych firmy Roland.

Klawisze Gordeno za to nie są zabezpieczone podwójnym backupem (niewiadomo). Oznacza to ze fabryka za sceną śle mu nastawy do każdego numeru przed wykonem (tzw presety), ale… nie ma na to rezerwy. Trochę to nie zrozumiałe. Jeżeli na koncercie posypią się jakieś klawisze, to możecie być pewni, że to są właśnie klawisza Petera G.

Właściwie na przedzie to jest jedyna zmiana w sprzęcie zespołu koncertowego. Reszta sprzętów jest identyczna, jak na poprzedniej trasie.

Co ciekawe u Gore’a i Fletchera dolne klawisze to właściwie atrapy bo służą tylko za backupowe klawisze gdyby górne jebnęły. Co to oznacza? Ze graja jeszcze mniej niż by się wydawało. Praktycznie tylko w 10% używają 2 klawiszy razem w jakies piosence.

Barwy idą z softwareowych synthów: Native Massive, Native Kontakt, Native Absynth, G-Media ImpOSCar.

Christian Eigner

Perkusja Christiana Eignera

Perkusja Christiana Eignera

Zestaw na trasę będzie dużo bogatszy, niż teraz i ten opis ma charakter rozwojoy.

Zdjęcia sprzętów zostały zrobione w Paryżu przed koncertem dla RTL2.

Sprzęt depeche MODE na trasie

[absynthe--minded]

Hi! Sorry if this is a bother, but would you mind talking a bit about the potential canonicity of Túrin and Beleg? I just love them <3 and I loved your meta on Russingon!

anon I genuinely don’t have to make an argument here

the man himself does it for me in the Lay of the Children of Húrin (bolding mine):

“and Túrin coming

stared astonished on the stern visage

of Beleg the brave his brother in arms,

of whom he learned the lore of leaping blades, and of bended bow and barbed shaft,

and the wild woodland's wisdom secret,

when they blent in battle the blood of their wounds.

Then Túrin's heart was turned from hate,

and he bade unbind Beleg the huntsman.

‘Now fare thou free! But, of friendship aught if thy heart yet holds for Húrin’s son,

never tell thou tale that Túrin thou sawst

an outlaw unloved from Elves and Men,

whom Thingol's thanes yet thirst to slay.

Betray not my trust or thy troth of yore!’

Then Beleg of the bow embraced him there --

he had not fared to the feast or the fall of Orgof --

there kissed him kindly comfort speaking:

'Lo! nought know I of the news thou tellest;

but outlawed or honoured thou ever shalt be

the brother of Beleg, come bliss come woe!”

and in Turambar and the Föalókë in the Books of Lost Tales (bolding mine again):

“Now would he have made at Flinding, but that Gnome sprang back, dropping his lamp, so that its cover slipped and the light of it shone forth, and he called out in the tongue of the Gnomes that Túrin should hold his hand and slay not his friends—then did Túrin hearing his speech pause, and as he stood, by the light of the lamp he saw the white face of Beleg lying nigh his feet with pierced throat, and he stood as one stricken to stone, and such was the look upon his face that Flinding dared not speak for a long while. Indeed little mind had he for words, for by that light had he also seen the fate of Beleg and was very bitter in heart. At length however it seemed to Flinding that the Orcs were astir, and so it was, for the shouts of Túrin had come to them; wherefore he said to Túrin: ‘The Orcs are upon us, let us flee,’ but Túrin answered not, and Flinding shook him, bidding him gather his wits or perish, and then Túrin did as he was bid but yet as one dazed, and stooping he raised Beleg and kissed his mouth.”

and in The Children of Húrin:

“If I stayed beside you, love would lead me, not wisdom,” said Beleg.

and

“In this way Beleg came back to Túrin, yielding to his love against his wisdom. Túrin was glad indeed, for he had often regretted his stubbornness; and now the desire of his heart was granted without the need to humble himself or to yield his own will. But if Túrin was glad, not so was Andróg, nor some others of his company. It seemed to them that there had been a tryst between Beleg and their captain, which he had kept secret from them; and Andróg watched them jealously as the two sat apart in speech together.”

look I could argue all I like but they kiss. it’s on the page. I ship it because it’s canon and Beleg can’t stop saying “I love you”.

#replies #tolkien #absynthe’s meta #turleg

[absynthe--minded]

Hi! Sorry to bother, but do you know where I can read more about Tolkien's opinion on queer relationships and queerness in general? I haven't read all of the letters, but in one of them he says some icky and misogynistic stuff about (het) relationships and I was kind of disappointed. (I don't mean this in a 'gotcha' kind of way, I'm just a queer person who's genuinely bothered by some of his views and wants to learn more)

I don’t think it’s any sort of a gotcha!

The short answer (there is more I have to say, but I’ll give you the important bit first) is that Tolkien never made any explicit and confirmed statements one way or the other about queerness. I’ve seen some people allude to things but I’ve never found anything concrete, and this fandom and this scholarly field are both homophobic enough that if there were anything he said against queer relationships we’d have all heard it by now. also, seriously, good job digging deeper into his views and interrogating them - he was far from perfect and honest, forthright engagement with his flaws is basically the only way we’ll move forward and tackle them.

the longer answer is that while he was both openly sexist (ranging from pretty bad misogyny to “uh, have you ever met a woman in your life?”) and openly racist (usually taking the form of “repeating any ethnic stereotypes he came across without any thought of their relationship to reality, and having no idea of what was or wasn’t offensive”) his feelings on queerness are harder to find. this isn’t that unusual - even people we’ve been able to confirm as queer or probably queer are in many cases silent about their relationship with their sexuality, and Tolkien was in a position where even if he himself was queer (which, by the way, is my opinion) he’d probably have no incentive to say so directly.

because this fandom and this scholarly discipline are so overwhelmingly cishet, queer scholarship of Tolkien is in its infancy, even to a point that means most people who are open to queer readings and queer interpretations will balk at trying to argue for the canonicity of queer relationships and queer subtext, there’s also not a lot of writing on this subject by biographers or other academics. however, there’s a fair bit of evidence that at least argues both that Tolkien was okay with IRL queer people and he was consciously engaging with queer themes in his works.

what we know is this:

he was friendly with W.H. Auden (gay), and a deep admirer of the works of Mary Renault (lesbian who wrote historical M/M fic focusing on the classics, sort of a midcentury Madeline Miller but more focused on historical accuracy). in fact he’s on the record as saying he loved Renault’s books (specifically The King Must Die and The Bull from the Sea, though possibly also The Charioteer and The Last of the Wine, both of which are explicitly gay fiction) and the fan letter she sent him was among his most prized correspondences

he was Catholic, but he purposefully wrote stories or developed narrative ideas that weren’t directly in compliance with Catholicism, and he did acknowledge that in one case (specifically the Gift of Men and the concept of euthanasia as a blessing) he was interested in exploring concepts as good stories rather than moral messages - this shows that his faith wouldn’t have necessarily bound him to only depict homosexuality badly

he wouldn’t have suffered socially for speaking out against queerness (other authors of his circle like C.S. Lewis were more vocal) but he didn’t, which indicates a choice not to

he was aware of and directly inspired by Homeric epics alongside Northern European sources, and this does include the Iliad

Quenya doesn’t have gendered pronouns, and we know that in at least one draft he changed gendered words like “husband” and “wife” to “spouse”. he also depicts elves and dwarves as having a high degree of androgyny, and elvish marriages are not explicitly required to be between a male elf and a female elf

his inclusion of vital and important relationships like Túrin and Beleg, Frodo and Sam, and Fingon and Maedhros alongside equally important het relationships indicates that he was interested in giving space to M/M that blurs or steps over the line between platonic het-approved friendship and queerness

there’s something to be said for how British midcentury queer literature depicts queer men as sad outcasts at war with their true nature who can’t ever be happy, and how Tolkien writes a lot of men in relationships with other men who are in that position except they’re miserable because of outside forces (the Ring, the Oath, Morgoth’s curse, their failings as people apart from relationships) and their deep connections with other men are the happiest and best part of who they are

this is, as you can see, both an area that really needs further study and an area that has just enough to suggest that he wasn’t a garden variety homophobe.

I hope that helps?

#replies #absynthe’s meta #queer tolkien scholarship is basically a ghost town