#to be clear: there are pro-shippers who don't have 'problematic' ships

[transandrophobia-truther-turtle]

"Pro-shippers should try telling normies [family members, coworkers, random strangers] about their ships, those people won't accept them" is an example of the appeal to popularity fallacy.

The appeal to popularity fallacy can be used to support many things that should not be supported. For example, transphobia: the general public is fairly hostile towards trans people. If I picked a random person to come out to as nonbinary, there would be a fair chance of them reacting badly. Does this mean that transphobia is the correct belief to hold? No, of course not. The popular belief can be wrong.

And this belief ("pro-shippers will be ostracized if they talk about their ships") isn't even accurate. "Problematic" ships are super common. Incest porn is a big category on porn sites; you can't look at mainstream porn art sites without wading through tons of noncon; underage characters in anime are very frequently depicted in a sexual manner. Lots of people have watched Game of Thrones.

Plenty of pro-shippers have told their friends and family about their "problematic" ships. Of course, you have to have a relationship where that's appropriate, and there are many people who will react badly, but reasonable attitudes toward fictional content are actually pretty common. It's much more likely that someone will be horrified by the existence of a group (antis) dedicated to cyberbullying others.

Stop using this argument.

#proship safe #proship #pro ship #proshipping #pro shipping #proshipper #pro shipper #proship positivity #pro shippers #pro fic #profic #pro fiction #anti anti #proselfship #proship please interact #proshippers #proship selfship #selfproship #original #to be clear: there are pro-shippers who don't have 'problematic' ships #but antis certainly don't seem to realize that

[olderthannetfic]

So I have a question. I saw a thing you wrote about Sarah z and the shipping discourse video, and I really don’t see how the use of the pink triangle was not at least slightly insensitive in the context of pro shipper stuff. Like the pink triangle is a very distinctly horrific image, and the nazi’s weren’t marching in the street saying “no more fictional stories where problematic things happen” and an actual nazi movement would likely kill both sides of this debate equally as much.

I feel like even with the broadness of the pro ship thing, the fact that this symbol is about defending fanfiction ships and invokes the holocaust is kind of overly dramatic. It’s definitely not a choice I would have made if I’d designed it.

To be clear I think Sarah z was seriously misunderstanding the situation, framing proship as “a stance you take in internet arguments” when it’s actually a whole discourse about the nature of fictional media and the morality of media creation, and also shipping kind of still exists outside in the real world, and conversations of shipping can and have happened in meatspace.

Also the framing of proship as something you are in petty internet debates is objectively wrong because you’re not just pro or anti ship when you argue about stuff, you’re pro or anti ship in the way you talk about and interpret fictional media as a whole.

--

The pink triangle is a major symbol adopted by the queer community. It was ubiquitous in queer US spaces in the 90s when I was coming out. It was so ubiquitous that we get things like this mainstream pop song:

What you are saying is the equivalent of saying that queer nerds aren't allowed to put rainbows on things.

Where the fuck do you think we got the 'biangles', one of the only bi symbols from?

You're gatekeeping someone having a pin that says "I am both a proshipper and queer".

There are people who personally dislike the reclaiming of the pink triangle, but no one who knows literally anything about offline queer communities in places like North America where Sarah is from would say what she said.

Ignorant children who don't care about the community's history have no place in the community.

[insomniac-ships]

hi! i have a few questions about proshipping.

what is it, exactly? most of the stuff i've found is from an anti perspective and i want to hear from a pro perspective

also, is it kind of like pro-choice where you can respect peoples right to do something while not doing it yourself? so like respecting people for reading/shipping whatever they want while you might not ship those kinds of ships/engage in the content?

like for me, my trauma definitely impacts the content that i engage in, but i understand that people deal with trauma in their own way and that can come in proshipping (not that everyone who is a pro shipper has trauma)

sorry if any of this is worded wrongly and/or offensively. thank you for taking the time to read this and if you answer this :)

Hello there, Anon! ♡ Questions are always welcome!

(Any instances of "you" are intended as a general "you", not directed at you in particular, anon!)

Proship is, at the very core, very simple!

Ship and let ship -> a similar enough idea to pro-choice, yes! It just means that you're allowed to ship things I personally dislike, and vice versa, as long as no one is being harassed or directly, intentionally, and maliciously harmed in the process.

Don't like? Don't read. (DL;DR) -> if you know you don't like a trope/ship/character/etc., don't go out of your way to search for it, and certainly don't go around leaving nasty comments on stuff you don't like. Just close the tab, or hit the back button, and be on your way.

Dead Dove: Do Not Eat (DDDNE or just dead dove) -> similar to DL;DR, but with emphasis on tagging. Essentially, it means "read the tags and don't be surprised when you encounter said tagged topics in this particular work". This goes both ways, for author/artist and for reader/viewer. Authors and artists have the responsibility to tag their works accurately and thoroughly, and provide content or trigger warnings when necessary. Readers and viewers have the responsibility to fully read the provided tags, filter out topics they find upsetting or triggering, and to know their own limits. In the event that someone is triggered or squicked out by something they didn't realize would be an issue, it's also their responsibility to take a step back and practice some self care while they calm down. ♡

The Golden Rule -> simply, treat others how you would want to be treated. This should apply to everyday life, as well as when interacting with folks in fandom spaces.

A few more things!

× Proship, as a stance, is also inherently anti-harassment. No one should be harassed, ostracized, or abused because of their likes and dislikes regarding fiction. (However, I'm also not naive enough to believe that no proshipper has ever harassed an anti. No community is flawless, and I don't doubt we've had our share of dirtbags.)

× Not all proshippers like "problematic" ships. We all have different limits and boundaries when it comes to what we enjoy and what we are squicked out by.

× Creating or consuming dead dove content as a tool for coping with trauma doesn't work for everyone. But for those it does help, it can provide a sense of control over traumatic situations, offer a safe and controlled means of catharsis, assist in recontexualizing trauma, and help people connect with other survivors and find a sense of community. Sometimes it's nice to know you aren't alone in your experiences. ♡

× I have never personally seen a proshipper say with their whole chest that "fiction doesn't affect reality". What I have seen said is "fiction is not reality, don't treat it as such" and "fiction does not impact reality on a 1:1 ratio". Reading, writing, drawing, thinking, or creating something fictional is not the same thing as actually Doing The Thing in real life.

Also, just to clear it up: proship does not mean "problematic ship", despite what many antis like to say. The prefix "pro-" is just the opposite of the prefix "anti-".

This, uh... got longer than I intended. Sorry about that! I hope this answers your question, and if you have anything else to ask, don't hesitate! ♡

And if other proship folks have anything to add, please do!

#ask t.k. #proship #pro ship #proshipper #pro shipper #profic #pro fic #profiction #pro fiction #comship #anti-harassment #fandom discourse #shipping discourse

[dairy-farmer]

Whoa, your answer to that question about referring to yourself as a Pro-Shipper, is amazing. Not only you made it clear, but you provided very helpful information! I've got something I'd like to know, what is to be considered "Pro-Ship"? I usually see the term very loosely used and I might not really know about the term itself. For example, I personally (*and secretly) enjoy JayTim (HAHAH yes I actually do, I adore them so much.) would I fall under the term "Pro-Ship"?

I am afraid of being called disgusted for that, I just simply enjoy them so much.

i'm happy that my post explaining my positive stance on proshipping was well received!!!!! i've found that fanlore is a very good source for anyone looking to read about or see impartial views and definitions on a lot of fandom terms and i agree with their description of proshipping which is as below:

"the general concept of a pro-shipper is that they believe "fiction is not reality" and often see every ship as valid, regardless of the opinions others may have towards the ship. For some pro-shippers, this includes incest, non-con, underage, and other forms of relationships that are called unhealthy or problematic."

a ship can't really be labelled as a "proship" ship because proshipping is more for the person doing the shipping like you or me or anyone interested, involved in, or consuming fandom material.

you not wanting to be harrassed or bothered over enjoying a simple ship like jaytim would be a proship desire.

it would likely be an 'anti' who is doing the harassing and bothering. they're essentially the ones who only want to ruin people's good times because they believe (despite all evidence against it) that they're right and have some moral, legal, or religious right to preach, shame, and "punish" strangers on the internet.

if anyone tries shaming or trying to bother you because you're enjoying a ship i highly encourage you block as well as to report them if they're sending threats (because if they're doing it to you they're likely doing it to others)- to whatever social media site you're on!

jaytim is a ship i also greatly enjoy!! and its often described as "problematic" despite more than 50% of the fics on ao3 being labeled as 'general audiences' fics which means nothing explicit such as violence or sex occurs, etc. the reason jaytim is looked down upon is because it's an "incest" ship. this is, however, incest on a technicality because both of them were adopted by the same man: bruce wayne.

but aside from the legality of it (which is dubious because jason is also legally dead so one could argue that tim can't be brothers with a dead boy) neither of them ever occupied the same house, lived together, they don't have a severe age gap, nor do either of them share dna (as far as we know). in terms of 'problematic ships' jaytim is incredibly tame and is the third most popular ship in the Batman- All Media Types category on ao3, right behind dick grayson/jason todd and clark kent/ bruce wayne. by numbers alone jaytim is more popular than every single other canon ship in batman.

no matter how antis may try to spin or portray it- the numbers speak for themselves. the reality is that people who don't like batcest slash fic are in the minority of batman fans because 2 of the 3 largest ships with the most fics written about them are batcest.

your interests aren't disgusting. they're harmless. i'd say that liking an "incest ship" and reading about it for a hobby is one of the most harmless hobbies there is.

there are always worse things people could do in their spare time so i think reading fics of a couple you genuinely enjoy seeing together is a nice way for people to enjoy spending their time.

#anonymous #asks #answered asks

[dimonds456]

Aight, what you see above is an article that's getting passed around by proshippers. I'm making my own post separate from theirs to discuss the contents of this article and why I believe everyone *should* read it, while also I don't believe the article is correct.

The article was written by a Japanese artist who had been harassed for "proshipping" online, even though they themself did not partake in anything more than aging up 15-year-old characters to 19. As far as they claim, that was it (though the artwork itself is not provided).

Someone had DMed them, asking if they were a proshipper, or a "problematic shipper", to which they shrugged and went "I guess so?" and then that person-referred to as A- started spreading it to all their friends that A was a proshipper and to avoid them, leading to soft blocks, harassment, ect.

Something I'd like to point out that is correct about this article is the meaning of "proshipper." It doesn't mean "problematic ships." Instead, "pro" is the prefix, not an abbreviation. The meaning is in reference to someone who is unbothered by any specific type of ship, and/or supports the creation of problematic ships. This difference is, I feel, important, not because the definition is changed, but because how people view that definition changes substantially.

Keep that in mind.

Something else of note here is the cultural difference. The artist is from Japan, and according to them, Japan allows ships of any kind. Japan, as a country, is proship, which creates vast and varied artistic expressions. Any and everything is allowed.

And, according to worldpopulationreview.com, the age of consent in Japan is 13 (though articles are saying they're rethinking this law).

Again, I recommend reading the article for yourself to fully understand the artist's point of view, but I'd like to break down where the author was wrong about many things. A lot of them stem from cultural differences and are normalized, so you can't really blame them, but it's good to keep in mind when interacting with proshippers from all over the world.

Something they're right about is harassment. I don't think people should be being harassed for stuff like this. Blocked? Yes.

The first thing they got wrong was the general assumption that fiction doesn't affect reality, or that antis cannot tell the difference between fiction and reality. This (at least for a lot of us) isn't true. Using myself as an example, it's clear to me that fiction and reality are two different worlds.

However, to say that fiction doesn't affect reality is false. Both worlds influence each other. If an adult starts dating a 13-year-old in fiction, younger audience members who watch that will see that relationship play out. Depending on how it's portrayed, this can either help or harm that audience member. If this relationship is deemed bad in that piece of media, then the younger members of that audience will remember that, vs if they say it's okay, THAT'S where you've crossed into proship territory that is actively harmful towards your audience.

I am a firm believer that anything should be allowed in fiction, as long as the author is respectful, responsible, and considers the ramifications of their work towards a real audience. So like, having a relationship between a 19-year-old and a 13-year-old should be allowed to be portrayed, as long as it isn't positive. By not allowing these stories to be told at all, that's leaning into some book burning shit.

What the author did, aging up 15-year-olds to 19, is not inherently bad, especially since they say it wasn't sexual in nature (but again, the art itself is never presented).

The second thing they get wrong is calling us a minority. I don't believe there were any studies done on this, but I don't think the majority of Americans go around talking about shipping children with adults? Again, it's a cultural difference that was influenced on this specific artist BY other proshippers. It's a biased view from both sides. I do not believe any studies have officially been done on this subject, so you cannot call us a minority. But, we can't call you a minority, either. I'm not sure how many there are on either side.

But also, I don't think that really matters. Continuing my topic from before with fiction affecting reality, if someone in that audience can get hurt because of your story, then it doesn't matter if the majority don't. It's still harmful and can affect reality- THIS reality- in negative ways. By drawing proship art and saying it doesn't matter because it's fiction, you're helping to normalize this art for ACTUAL predators. It doesn't matter how many proshippers there are, this is STILL harmful.

Something else I noticed, but I cannot point specifically to this article as evidence for, but it may be influencing the author, is the idea of in-fandom vs outside-fandom. The author mentions this a couple times, though usually in reference to the cultural differences between Japan and America.

The author is outside the US fandom, and so doesn't fully understand its inner workings or why so many of us are anti-proship "purest"s. I don't know how else to explain this besides going up to your grandparents and asking them if they think proshipping is okay.

Upon hearing the actual definition- being unbothered or perpetuating any type of relationship between two or more characters in fiction- they might go "yeah I agree with that," because that does sound nice on paper. Freedom of expression.

But what antis have come to realize is that fiction DOES affect reality, and if you were to ask your grandparents if they thing a child should be in a relationship with an adult, they'd probably go "no."

This is purely because they don't understand the culture of being online, and the several, several subcultures that came to be. We know what proshippers are and what they represent, but someone outside fandom space wouldn't.

And now, to any proshippers reading this: first of all, thank you for hearing me out, lol. But then, I ask you to please re-evaluate why you're a proshipper. Is it for the freedom of expression idea, do you just not give a shit, or do you genuinely enjoy seeing kids and adults together? Maybe something else? I'm not going to tell you how to feel about that- you can come to your own conclusion- but I do ask that you re-examine that idea.

If the author is SOMEHOW reading this, first of all, thank you too. My goal here was not to harass you in any way, but to point out the core of why this article doesn't really work. I'm sure in Japan things are vastly different, and that's not your fault, OP. And although I don't stand by what A did to you, I do ask that you think again. Stuff like this does affect reality, even in small ways (but when it comes to p*dos, it can be FAR more harmful than good).

Proshippers help normalize unhealthy behaviors that can seriously hurt children for the rest of their lives. Do proships exist in reality? ...Yes. Not between fictional characters, but those characters can influence people in real life to go "oh yeah the incest ship was okay in this anime, which means it's fine if I'm like that, too." It's not fine. It's not okay.

Again, I'm not here to harass you, and ultimately it's up to you whether you choose to listen. I'm sorry for the harassment at all, that should not have occurred.

Back to my general audience, though, yeah. Again, read the article for yourself (which I do still highly recommend). It gives a good glimpse into the minds and ideas of some proshippers out there. I don't think OP is a bad person, just misinformed. And I believe the same of a lot of proshippers out there. We can't change their minds, but we can make sure misinfo like what is in the article is debunked, and spread correct information regarding the subject.

Some sources:

Again, read the article, do some thinking (on BOTH sides), and have a good one, guys.

#dimond speaks #i do think this debate is WAY more heated than it needs to be #i firmly believe proshipping is bad and there isn't an excuse for it #darkfic is different (until proshippers started using that term too) #it all depends on portrayal #like i don't like watching that sort of thing myself but it might be cathartic for someone else #or there could be valuable lessons to glean from it #like this is one of the many things i hated about 'as i lay dying' #one of the kids of the family gets. that. and there is no plot reason besides “she's stupid” #i do think these works deserve to exist if only so we can discuss them and learn from them #but actively partaking in normalizing this stuff is NOT OKAY and shouldn't be regarded as such #idk im tired. #i'd ask that i not be taken out of context here and if someone wants to debate me i'm all ears #but yeah. love your neighbor and don't sexualize kids okay? #and op i dont think your art was proship i think people on twitter were exaggerating #but again i havent seen the art so idk what theyre talking about #k peace #tw incest mention #incest mention #proshipping #tw proship #ask to tag #Youtube

[greenelectricsky]

Hi everyone! I'm GreenElectricSky and this is my blog, mainly about Cats. Also my earlier posts about flowers and every other stuff I liked are here. Now, what is not related to Cats will be published/rebloged on @violetskyatnight :) Because it's become problematic I also made a blog only for my fanfiction and Cats Scenes, so if you like to see them go to @moonyskyallthetime :)

Those are my main OCs:

Cysiek and TuśTuś:

Cysiek is more my OC when TuśTuś is more my catsona, as they are more similar to me:) They are Tugger and Munku's twins.

My Cats Scenes are tagged #i think im funny. I'm doing them almost daily from 12.07.2023, so it's a solid number now :) Also, now they are linked together, so have fun. And my writing is tagged "my writing" ;) It can happen I post here links to my other fiction too.

Although, because it was a problem a few times, I want to say one thing loud and clear: PERSONALLY I DON'T SHIP INCEST AND CHILD/ADULT. It doesn't mean YOU can't - if you like it, it's your fun, not mine, so we probably won't talk about it and we're cool. If I ship someone you think they are siblings or kittens, in MY headcanon they are NOT. (I have a lot of ships, so when I write tuggerstrap they aren't brothers but when I write tuggoffelees, then yes, there is a big chance Tugger and Munku are brothers, etc.) I hope it's clear now :)

This blog is LGBTQIA+ friendly. It's also friendly to everyone who behave respectfully to others. I don't want to be part of any kind of war in fandom, I'm too old and peaceful for this shit. Pro-shippers, shippers, non-shippers are welcomed here.

I hope we all can have fun together, be fans and show our love for Cats in every form we like!

If you want to ask, then ask, I would love to respond to your questions. Also about my OCs to Cats (TuśTuś, Cysiek, Mirage, FinFun, FanFanGrace, Cream, Tango, Papyrus, Sky, Silenia, Jemmysweets, Adonis, Star, Sun, Moon, Shyny, Haze, Oranglow, SpicyJuice, Amberlina, FlowerFlow, EarthyRose, HoneyTrap, AlmonDisco, Vanilliarity, Bumblee, Tikku. More about them here) or any other things you like. If you want to just be friends I also love to know you better, start a talk, don't be shy :) But please, don't send me anons with luck chains or other things like "and tag another ten mutuals/blogs" because it's... Creepy? From anon I can take the real question because someone can want to know but is shy or something, I can understand that. Chains only from not anons, please :)

P.S. My pronouns are they/them here, he/him. Please, not girl, she/her!!!

P.S.II (08.12.2023) I wanted to do something for less appreciated pairings/ships, other relationships too and started to do it in my advent calendar (now with tag #advent calendar and #cats advent calendar). If you want something with them or any other pairings/ships I didn't write send me a prompt, ship and tag (or at last two of them) and you get something! HERE (another update 16.04.24, 16.02.24, 07.01.24, 28.12.23, 25.12.2023) is a list of pairings/ships/ and other kinds of relationships (with tags) I'm making (here or somewhere else like my published/no published fanfiction). If there isn't your ship - don't worry, I can write it too and even add it to that list :) One thing - I'm not doing abusive/toxic relationships, because... well, because just no.

2023! Achievements!!!!!

Lovies!!!!! <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

[pomodoko]

Hi, sorry if this is a weird thing to ask, and ignore it if it's just not something you want to answer, but wtf does pro ship mean. I tried googling it a few times but I didn't find anything useful as to what it could mean. But it seems like something that one should know if on tumblr I guess??? Again, sorry, this just feels like a weird ask, but judging by your last ask you seem to have some idea of what it could mean?

I wouldn't be the best one to answer this question in details with proper timelines of the change in internet linguistics. However, if I were to sum it up, as of this moment, right now, pr*ship is a term used for people who enjoy controversial, even borderline problematic relationship dynamics between two and/or more characters. This usually includes subject matters like p*dophilia (ships between a minor and an adult) or inc*st.

They tend to use the reason that the content they produce and enjoy are fictional (thus have no real life effects on other folks) to not be targeted by other people. Depending on the fandom you're in, pr*shippers can slide from being very secular and careful with their tagging to keep people from accidentally getting into their zone, or just being very vocal about their stance (ie, a post about censorship in fiction might blow up and get passed without context onto your dash).

As for myself, I do not care much for them and the content they produce as long as they keep it to themselves. Reminder, they're human beings with clear reasons why they're interacting with content like that and I don't care to dig into their lives just to find any sort of justification. I've seen enough witch hunts on this hellsite to know nothing ends well for any party involved.

#my ask #Anonymous #i hope this answers everything! #cheers

[antis-are-cool]

hello, welcome to antis-are-cool!

hello! my name is reggie/regina, i use any pronouns (he/it pref but i don't mind any others), and i have decided to create this blog to be a safe space for antis! i am also a minor.

due to this i would like to request that proshippers SERIOUSLY DO NOT INTERACT WITH THIS BLOG, as it is meant to be a safe space for antis. it's not exactly "safe" for us if proshippers are invading the space! any proship account interacting will be blocked.

on this blog you can expect to find anti positivity, good anti takes, regina things, and more!

faq + dni under the cut!

FAQ

"what does antiship mean?"

to be antiship means to be against proshipping. proshipping (also called comshipping) is the belief that "shipping" any 2 or more characters, even if the ship is abusive, pedophilic, incestuous, etc., is completely fine. most of the time proshippers think this because they believe that "fiction doesn't affect reality", which is just completely untrue! there have been several documented cases of fiction affecting reality.

"can you prove fiction affects reality?"

yes! as an example, the movie "jaws" has very much affected the way sharks are seen culturally, and lead many people to be afraid of sharks even though most of them are not even dangerous. another example is an incident known as the "slenderman stabbings", in which 2 girls had attempted to k!ll their friend so that slenderman would take them in as proxies. there are likely many more examples but these two are the ones i am most aware of myself.

"but i heard proship/antiship means so-and-so and not your definition?"

the chance is, you have stumbled across one of the below common misconceptions:

proship meaning being ok with the concept of shipping in general (fun fact: it actually used to mean this, but the meaning has since changed)

proship meaning being against harrassment (not inherently, many proshippers harrass antis)

proship meaning someone who ships problematic ships (again, not inherently, many of them do but there are those that don't)

proship meaning p3d0 or some other disgusting thing (also not true, not all proshippers are p3d0s, although many p3d0s are in the proship community)

antiship meaning being against shipping in general (i have heard this from several antishippers, and this is simply untrue! i am an anti-shipper and i have several ships.)

antiship meaning being against any kind of problematic relationship being portrayed in media, ever (no! not even a little bit! me and most other antishippers are perfectly fine with toxic relationships being shown in media, as long as it is made clear that said relationship is bad and it is portrayed as such.)

antiship meaning someone who is pro-harrassment (this is also not true. i am an anti, and i will not tolerate harrassment from either proshippers or antis.)

dni

🍭 basic dni criteria

🍭 antis who harrass proshippers

🍭 proshippers (obviously)

i hope you enjoy this blog! goodbye :)

#anti shipping #antishipper #proshippers dni #antis please interact

[cryptidwithaninternetconnection]

To answer separately because I'm sure Frans sick of this drama and doesn't wanna hear about it, Lunasol is a problematic artist who is unabashedly a pro shipper and just a very nasty person. They have a stall at a convention that Fran is attending, I don't know what exactly was said but Fran made a mean joke about them, and pro shippers immediatley jumped on them and called them a stalker because they,, happened to attend the same event? They justify this harassment by saying that Lunasols been stalked before, but looking into it, it's most likely a complete and utter lie to gain some sympathy

Ah! Thanks so much (also this is my first ever ask woohoo! :D) this realy clears stuff up, I’ll make sure to avoid Lunasol on social media, I’m not a huge fan of pro-shipping and general weird art, especially with characters that are clearly minors, thanks for clearing that up! :)

[irredeemabun]

Anti- and Pro-ship Spectrum

I get so ungodly tired of having to explain to people what I mean when I say I'm pro-fic/pro-ship, while at the same time having to hold my head in embarrassment at the people genuinely acting like jackasses while wearing the same label as me. Everyone is different and I've seen many different levels of both "pro-ship" and "anti-ship".

So here's my attempt at better identification for us, inspired by THIS tier list that focuses a little more on the ways people enjoy dark/taboo media rather than the beliefs about fiction that shape the discourse around it.

First, optional descriptions of mainstream and niche media for clarity:

Mainstream: Media published to a broad, wide audience through an actual company or team, giving it somewhat of a position as "standard" media and a MUCH bigger influence than niche media.

Niche: Media with an inherently limited reach by virtue of only being posted to one or several social media websites, created by one or few people and only really made for fun at the end of the day.

Obviously niche works have the potential to gain enough of an influence to earn more scrutiny, but generally in discourse, I tend to mostly see anti-shippers target singular fan works or artists with only a few hundred followers, rather than an indie product that got much bigger like Undertale.

━◦○◦━◦○◦━◦○◦━◦○◦━◦○◦━◦○◦━

Now then, I broke the spectrum into 3 tiers each, with 1 being the most nuanced and 3 being the most extreme.

I tried to word them all in a neutral/unbiased way (except for the joke one at the end ofc), so that even people who don't align with me will actually find the descriptions useful.

Tier 3 Pro-shipper: A free-speech absolutist, seeing no difference in harm between propaganda and earnest art, or between RPF and purely fictional work.  The true embodiment of "fiction has no effect on reality", with the belief that even the worst, most demonstrably harmful art should never be shunned or censored, and that anyone who was influenced by media to commit horrible acts was just mentally unstable to begin with.

Tier 2 Pro-shipper: Sees a clear distinction between Invasive Fiction (propaganda and some/all RPF) and Everything Else, but doesn't bother distinguishing between mainstream and niche fiction.  Takes most criticism of media as someone "whining" or "trying to cancel" a piece of fiction, and thus tends to mock critics or call them "antis".

Tier 1 Pro-shipper: Believes that criticizing mainstream media is important because it has a far reach and the potential to influence reality if unchecked, but fan artists only reach a tiny fraction of that.  Doesn't see fanwork as immune from criticism, but merely as the least of anyone's worries, whereas mainstream work can be potentially harmful if uncritically slurped up by everyone despite botching morals (for example, homophobic implications or a badly-done abuser redemption).

Tier 1 Anti-shipper: Doesn't make immediate harsh judgements based on kinks or ships, but still believes that those with certain fictional interests must be mentally unwell and should make efforts to change, because if they were healthy, they wouldn't have such interests, and thus wouldn't feel the need to create more harmful content.

Tier 2 Anti-shipper: Sees the value in using dark fiction to cope with trauma or to explore serious topics in a mature way, but the moment it becomes arousing for the writer/reader, they are deemed a terrible person, and the content is deemed nothing but fetish work that shouldn't exist.

Tier 3 Anti-shipper: FULLY believes that people's kinks, ships, and other fictional interests directly reveal their beliefs and motivations in real life.  And even if some enjoyers of problematic media aren't literal pedophiles/abusers, they are still causing inexcusable harm by sharing their content, and they should be stopped by ANY means necessary.

Tier 3.5 (Extra) Anti-shipper: Same as Tier 3, but also "It'S bAdD tO SeXuaLiZlzE mInOR CHaRacTrs EVEN IF yOu'rE a mINoR! durrrr" -_-

━◦○◦━◦○◦━◦○◦━◦○◦━◦○◦━◦○◦━

BONUS! Bullshit that often gets lumped in with Fiction Discourse and really shouldn't be:

Beyond Pro-shipping: Debates about the morality of irl incest or attraction to real minors does not belong under the "pro-ship"/"pro-fiction" umbrella because those things have nothing to do with fiction.  Please do not identify these discussions under these labels.

Groomers: are Groomers.  Nothing about the ship war affects that.  Anyone can be a predator—anti or proship, left or right, religious or not, etc.  This is irrelevant to what "side" of any debate you're on.

━◦○◦━◦○◦━◦○◦━◦○◦━◦○◦━◦○◦━

Please remember that everyone is an individual and I don't want to try and shove people into boxes that don't fit them. I don't want this to become a substitute for discussion, but I just felt that the terms "pro-ship" and "anti-ship" were far too broad considering that you have "person that merely thinks we should be critical of what we consume" and "mouth-frothing puritan that harasses people over their fan art" under the same label, and now perhaps those of us on either side of the discourse that are reasonable and willing to trade perspectives can more easily wave our hands and say, "Wait! False alarm! I'm not the type of pro/anti you're thinking of, please don't shoot me on sight!" x'D

#proship #pro-ship #pro ship #profiction #pro-fiction #pro fiction #shipping discourse #antiship #anti-ship #anti ship #labels #terms #coining #proship safe #proshippers please interact #maaa #general ref #fiction is not reality #fiction affects reality #cross-tagging because this is meant to help reasonable people from both sides #please be civil #I'm tier 1 proship if anyone was wondering #also I wanna thank a lovely self-identified anti for giving me some new perspectives that definitely made this list better #he's the reason I have faith in some of you and why I want to create a bridge #profic

[histronic-gizmo]

Guess who wrote an entire rant in response to an anti who tagged me in a post regarding the Stanley parable, only for it to not post because they had blocked me by the time I hit send 💀

I'm gonna rewrite it here

@the-redacted-line (obvi don't harrass them, don't engage with them, i don't know the full INs and OUTs of how blocking on tumblr works but I'm hoping they'll see this)

Here's the tags they put in that post

I never was saying I want to see problematic content of TSP, there's already a few good things on AO3, I was complaining because I'm barred from interacting with 90% of the TSP fandom here on Tumblr.

The Stanley Parable is SO important to me, I can't express that enough. I actively avoid problematic fan work with it because it's not something I enjoy or seek out with this game. I just, Yk, support people who do want that!

I'm upset that I can't interact with amazing art because I'm not an asshole about made up and intangible shit. I'm upset I can't make friends with most people who enjoy this thing because I'll be called a p*dophile.

I'm not at fault for YOU seeing my proship post that was tagged with 4 different variations of "proship" solely for filtering purposes. If YOU don't want to see proship stuff, filter the tags. The filtering system exists for a goddamn reason.

I have a long list of variations of various things filtered and I never see shit I don't want to see. And when I do? Guess what's going in my filter list?

I was sexually assaulted as a child and I am haunted with terrible intrusive thoughts of sexual assaults, murder and violence. I go to therapy and I've done all the coping mechanisms in the book. Nothing has been nearly as effective as coping with fiction. My therapist and I work extensively to make sure it's not having the opposite effect on me.

Some antis argue that if it's to cope, you should keep it to yourself. I'm disabled, and I don't always have the energy or resources to create this content I need to cope with my day to day life. People posting fanfiction, Fanart, original work, and other fanwork with problematic content is almost the only way I can access this coping mechanism.

Problematic content is IMPORTANT. It's not for everyone, it's not supposed to BE for everyone. Like everytjing, it should be clearly marked, tagged and labeled so people who don't want to and shouldn't see it DONT.

There are very little problematic fanworks that aren't clearly marked. The ones aren't marked are a problem that should be addressed, but the solution isn't to ban and shame problematic content.

Proshipper doesn't stand for "Problematic Shipper", it stands for "Pro Shipping". It's supporting people who are problematic shippers.

Its an acknowledgement that fiction affects reality, but in a different way than reality affects reality. It's an acknowledgement that people can explore things in fiction without it bearing any meaning on them as a person. It's an acknowledgement that it can affect reality and make people's trauma worse, so things should be clearly marked. It's an acknowledgement that fiction can affect reality and give survivors a safe environment to work through their trauma.

Its an acknowledgement that fiction and reality are different planes of existence. They're connected in so many ways but they are seperate.

It's an acknowledgement that survivors deserve to heal. Just because my way of healing doesn't work for you doesn't mean it's disgusting and shouldn't be used. Just because it's unhealthy for you doesn't mean it's unhealthy for me.

No one is trying to say you have to want to see, make, or support problematic fictional content. All we ask is that you stop labeling it as wrong, disgusting, and unhealthy. All we ask is that people who don't like it stop harrassing and demeaning those who do.

I have no idea what this person in particular has done, I doubt they've done anything, they haven't harrassed me. I want to make that clear.

It's just hard to be on your side when your side got me in the emergency room because of the massive amount of death threats, graphic violence descriptions, and insults I got in my Tumblr ask box on a daily basis.

I rarely ship problematic ships because my hyperfixation rarely have an opportunity for them (if we ignore Rick and Morty, that's very recent and out of the ordinary for me)

But I refuse to support and be in the side of people who think fiction is so much more important than reality that I get told I deserved to be raped as a child because I thought two cartoon characters should kiss.

You may not have said that, but that's who's side your on.

#long post #trauma dump #tw anti #the stanley parable #discourse #shipcourse #proship #proshipper #proshippers #proship safe #proshipper safe #anti anti #anti antis #for the love of god dont harrass the person i tagged thank u #tw rape #tw csa

[olderthannetfic]

Hi. I was wondering if you could explain what the discourse surrounding pro-shippers, anti-antis, etc is. I have no idea what those mean.

--

They're both terms for people who are not antis. Conceptually, the two basic camps are:

--

Antis: Fiction directly affects reality, so you shouldn't write abusive ships in fanfic. Bullying live humans to "protect" fictional characters is fine because the ends justify the means.

This usually comes with a hearty dose of radfem "kink critical" garbage (yes, even from the ones who say "radfems DNI") and usually a lot of hypocrisy where their (problematic in canon) ship is fine but some rival ship is "abuse", "incest", and "pedo" despite being zero of these things.

Proshippers/anti-antis: Fiction does not affect reality in a direct 1:1 way. People should write what they want. Kink is fine. Bullying is not acceptable.

--

Except...

In a turn of events that shocks no one, a lot of proshippers/anti-antis are also total hypocrites and think harassing people is fine, just different people and over slightly different fictional things.

The distinction between 'proshippers' and 'anti-antis' was never very clear. Part of the development of 'proshippers' was that people think 'anti-antis' sounds dumb and/or they want to self-define by what they're for instead of what they're against.

These days, the actual pro-ship types like Fiction-is-not-reality tend to self-describe as "anti-censorship" and "anti-thoughtcrime". That means we don't believe that thoughtcrimes are real. If you have a fantasy, it's just a fantasy and not a sign you're going to one day snap and do that thing.

[dallon-jamesweekes]

Pro-Shipping

Alright, here's a bit of a rabbit hole.

To my knowledge, pro-shipping is the belief that anything can be shipped and fan content can be created for that ship. This is generally put in the context of works surrounding pedophilia, incest, and sexual assault.

On the other side of the argument are the antis, who believe that the darker topics shouldn't have fan content surrounding them, or at least fan content in public spaces like tumblr or AO3.

From my observations, the antis seem to be far more aggressive in their pursuit of purer content. They have been known to attack people across the internet if they so much as mention a hint of pro-ship beliefs. I'm sure there's some nuance in there that I'm not seeing, as everyone on the internet is biased about something, including my sources. The violent minority shouldn't be indicative of a whole community, but, well, this doesn't seem like as much of a minority as it's made out to be.

In my personal, biased, human opinion, there's a lovely little gray area here that we can all coexist in. Everyone can be happy in this little gray area that I just invented that is likely never going to happen. This place has a few rules.

1. Just don't be a dick. Don't tell people to fuck off and die, don't shove violent content where it's not wanted (to be clear that is mostly directed at the antis who weaponize the content of pro-shippers in their arguments against those that don't want to see it), and don't actively hunt people down for their opinions.

2. TAG PROPERLY. This is mostly aimed at pro-shippers who make problematic content. If your platform has any kind of tagging system, then TAG THE HELL OUT OF IT. If it doesn't, INCLUDE TRIGGER WARNINGS IN THE DESCRIPTION OR AUTHORS NOTE. As a long-time AO3 user, I have definitely consumed problematic content that wasn't adequately tagged accidentally. When you click on a fic that's tagged as enemies-to-lovers with a happy ending, that's what you expect, not a graphic sexual assault scene on the fourth paragraph. As someone who experiences intrusive thoughts and who has a history with sexual assault/harassment, this can be deeply upsetting. This is one instance of a violation of the first rule; don't be a dick. Tagging is just common courtesy, but for those of us who have genuine triggers it can be the difference between a brighter day and a shitty week. That's one thing almost exclusively directed at the pro-shippers that I think isn't mentioned enough and that antis often miss entirely in their arguments.

3. Don't make NSFW content about content creators that don't consent to it, or at least make it so that nobody who wasn't exclusively looking for that content can access it. One common pro-shipper argument I see is that their ships don't hurt anyone, and for the most part, they're right. The exception is real people (often minors) that have access to violent, disturbing, sexual fan content about themselves through the internet. That is an example of a concrete consequence of a pro-shipper creator's actions. This even being mentioned at all is probably a direct consequence of my involvement in the MCYT fandoms but it's something I hardly ever see addressed on either side in the broader conversation. If making dubious content about a character is your coping mechanism and that character is connected to a real-life minor that could find that content on the internet, please don't post it. Imagine being that kid. That would be incredibly shitty, wouldn't it?

Just to be clear, this isn't meant to entirely devalue the message of the pro-shipper movement, just draw to one relatively niche exception. It's different when it's about a real person, especially about a minor. It's one thing to create (for example) a fic about a minor with themes of sexual assault, and it's another thing to post it on AO3 or tumblr with only main-tags. That would be a gigantic violation of my first rule here.

If you're a pro-ship fan creator, this likely won't apply to you! Which is awesome! This is common sense and common courtesy! This is not meant as a general message!

4. Problematic fanworks can and should exist. People are fucked up, first of all. Fucked up works aren't out of character for the human race as a whole. It's no use trying to pull something out by the roots when everything is connected to the root system. Fucked up content about fiction exists. Deal with it.

It could be a coping mechanism. I know one way I deal with my intrusive thoughts is writing them down, and trauma can be the same way. Trying to police a vent fic when it's properly tagged and not about real people who don't consent to it's creation is a dick move. Don't do it.

How do you define problematic? 'You know it when you see it' is not a valid answer. If you can come up with a list of everything considered problematic by every human being that has ever lived and can present it to me then I will eat my damn hat. Trying to hit a moving target is never going to work with this.

If everyone followed these things and just WASN'T TERRIBLE OR NEGLIGENT OR MEAN OR A DICK, we WOULDN'T HAVE THIS ISSUE. Please don't comment non-constructive things. I will rickroll you without mercy. And then laugh at you.

Try to take these things to heart, no matter what side you're on. The points I made about pro-shippers, you're likely already doing. Most of you guys aren't fuckwads. Most of the anti criticisms are more over the movement as a whole. Guys, maybe just stop being complete fucklwalnuts and we can all just get along, ok?

Thanks for listening.

#pro ship #pro shipping #proship #proshipper #anti anti #anti shipping #discourse #hot take #lukewarm take

[proshipsafehouse]

Being Antiship is Usually a Categorical Misunderstanding

There's an important ideology in pro/anti ship discourse that I don't see spoken about often. I wish it came up more, so here I am, bringing it up.

Proshippers aren't a homogeneous group, so we don't all have the same likes/dislikes. Even within our own group, we don't all share the same interests. What we do have in common, however, is the belief that it's okay for someone to like something that you don't.

Proshipping, at the root, is acceptance that not everyone is the same, and that we all like different things. Along with that, is accepting that not everyone will like what we like, and that it may even trigger other people.

I can be triggered by the exchange of bodily fluids and degradation, but that doesn't mean that someone else is bad for liking it.

I know proshippers who don't like age gaps, or who don't like writing younger characters, or writing opposite younger characters, and I also know proshippers who don't like incest. I know proshippers who are triggered by abuse (myself included), and who really hate abuse or non-con. But what those people have in common is that they understand that being triggered by it/not liking it, doesn't mean that other people are bad for liking it.

It’s uncomfortable (and extremely problematic/arrogant) that antis feel like they can tell someone else what to like, or that you're bad for liking it. You’re not morally superior for disliking something that someone else enjoys.

The important thing to note here is that antis are antis because they've made a categorical error. Antis have decided that proship = being a MAP, or that proship = perpetuating abuse, and so on. Being proship JUST MEANS that you don’t judge someone for what they like, and DOESN’T MEAN that you’re into incest or abuse or age gaps, etc. (which I don’t think you should judge someone for anyway, even if they are, but that’s because I’m proship).

I want to make this clear--being proship doesn’t mean that you support violence against real people. There’s also no empirical evidence to support that writing or drawing or engaging with fictional taboo impacts real people in any way. If causational damages cannot be produced, then the evidence is purely anecdotal.

Lastly, and I feel like I write about this a lot--not judging someone for what they like in fiction is not the same as supporting MAPs or supporting violence against real people. If you believe that, you are wrong, and you are choosing to be ignorant. This is something that I see antis doing a lot, so they can strawman proshippers into being villains.

Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.

Anti-Shippers & Minors, DNI.

#proshipper #proshippers #anti proship #anti proshipper #anti proshippers #anti anti #antiship #tw discourse #tw: discourse #tw abuse #tw map mention #tw: maps #tw incest #tw noncon

[lady-of-disdain]

If you're so bothered by a cartoon ship (which... no words) still don't understand why you take it out on shippers, not like you could do much about the studio anyway, they don't care, as they should, but then being on our ass is entirely pointless... maybe that's the problem at the same time, maybe to some extent you do realise no one cares so you've decided persecuting a bunch of fan creators and consumers would be the next best thing. That said I feel it's imperative to point out, we're not Sunrise, we're not the ones with the power to shape this story, so you bullying us is frankly just devoid of any meaning other than raw intent for violence. At the very least admit that and drop the pretences, it's the only thing you've done after all, one would have to be blind not to see it.

If you're afraid a puny ship might be canon, and whatever you've twisted it to mean for you, take it up with the studio, alternatively with god since you're so into fictive characters over real life. Come to think of it didn't you guys have a friend that has a friend working at the studio? How come you're still so insecure? Why don't you tell the friend of the friend to influence the plot? Why hasn't this friend of a friend provided any other inside scoops to make themselves credible? Questions, questions.

Either way, hurting shippers will achieve nothing, we were gonna ship no matter the canon status of the ship, and I pity you people who think that shipping something has to be done because you want something canon, as opposed to just... for fun... but maybe that comes naturally with being pathetic, anyway, the possibility of it becoming canon now has nothing to do with us. Even less so as Westerners, if audience even has any sort of influence in all this, it would be the Japanese one way before it would be any Western one. Appreciate you giving us so much importance, but we don't need it, and we're just not really as important as you attribute, we'd just love it if you stopped hurting people over cartoons. You made something gruesome out of a fairy tale, that's on you, that's your problem, and we'd all be better off if you found a way to deal with that didn't rely on abusing others.

Honey, are you lost? I think there was maybe a different blog this rant was supposed to be sent to but I got it by mistake. Because I have no worldly idea what you are talking about in about half of this ask.

The first thing that confuses me: that I’m apparently “taking it out on shippers”, “ persecuting”, and “bullying” them? Please show me your receipts. I’ve literally never directly initiated contact with a sessrin blog. Hell, the one time I considered answering a post made by a pro blog, it was going to be in direct response to a question they posed in the anti tag, directed towards antis, and it turns out I couldn’t even answer the post because the user had most of the anti community blocked. (Silly, I know, but this is what we’ve been dealing with so what can I say.) Any time I want to respond to a sessrin argument that wasn’t directed to me anyways, I would usually screenshot it and blackout the names.

I can count on one hand the times I’ve even posted in the same thread as pro sessrin blogs, and in those cases, I either A) didn’t directly call out the other blog/blogs that were posting in the same thread as me, or @ them, or B) was only even interacting in said post because pro shippers were piling on and harassing people in the thread, and I was simply pointing out that there were shippers in said thread acting fools. The only time I ever even pointed out a particular blog I did it via screenshot and did it to keep a record of a blog that was admitting to flagging our posts as spam. 

If you would like to see proof of my interactions, all you have to do is check the #receipts tags on my blog, you’ll find all of my interactions conveniently tagged. (Oh and don’t worry, I’ll get back to that receipts tag shorty.)

The second thing you said that confuses me, that I have a “friend that has a friend working at the studio”? What (and I can’t stress this enough) the FUCK, are you talking about? 

I.....have never made this claim? Where have I ever said this, where have I ever reblogged this? I’ve never even read this? I need some clarification here, because either you are from an alternate timeline where I’m living a much cooler life, or like I said, you have the wrong blog.

~

Anyways, regardless of the fact that I’m pretty sure you sent this to the wrong person, I guess I can render a response to the base question you seem to be asking here: Why argue with shippers?

Really, at the end of the day, I’m not arguing with your average shipper. Hell, there are a few blogs I even follow and interact with that have said they like sessrin content, but they understand this is not an appropriate thing for a kid's show. And I can respect that because I’ve been in the problematic ship boat in other fandoms. (Here’s a hint, in one of the fandoms that I followed content for a problematic ship in, a content creator was given cookies with sewing needles baked into them, yikes right?!)

The main message of mine and many other blogs I follow is that this ship isn’t appropriate for children’s media, and what happens is a lot of salty people come out of the woodwork who feel the need to argue and say there is nothing wrong with it, which causes us to have to list the reasons why there is indeed something wrong with it (thus why it shouldn't be in said children’s media), then what happens is people like you come at us and act like all we’ve been doing is bullying shippers, and “why don’t you just let us ship in peace!?!?!?!!!??”

In fact, I shouldn’t even be surprised that I got this ask eventually, because as I’ve pointed out in the past, the shipper argument seems to be a cyclical one.

A blogger will make a statement something along the lines that they really don’t care if people ship sessrin, but the shippers really shouldn’t be making a lot of noise to the studio that they want to see this ship in the show because kids watch it, and it’s not a great message to send to kids.

A shipper will then message the blog (usually anonymously if possible) something along the lines of you’re wrong about the ship sending a bad message to kids because of xyz, or it’s a totally normal and healthy relationship, and you’re wrong, or Yashahime isn’t for kids, etc.

The Blogger will then respond with actual evidence, a well-worded response, or even just fucking common sense (like come on, some of the mental gymnastics I’ve seen people employ to try to validate this fucking ship to us is hilarious).

The blogger will then get another message something along the lines of  “why don’t you just let us ship in peace!?!?!?!!!??”

The blogger responds with JESUS CHRIST I SAID FROM THE VERY START THAT I DON’T CARE WHAT YOU SHIP I JUST DON’T WANT TO SEE IT IN A GODDAMN KIDS CARTOON”

At which point the whole process is rinsed and repeated. Congratulations you’ve just witnessed a new grey hair grow out of my fucking scalp.

However, there is a new facet to this shit gem that I’ve noticed during this whole annoying cycle, and that is the fact that a lot of pro shippers are making claims that they are being harassed by anti blogs, but I’m not seeing a lot of proof of this. And make no mistake, if I see an established anti blog being terrible, or making a false claim, I have no problem calling them out, or correcting false information. Please, feel free to screenshot proof and post it in the anti tag, and see how many other blogs won't put up with this either.

And to be clear, I don’t really count anonymous asks as harassment, because people can be sending that shit to themselves. Just like I don’t mind asks I get like this one because I naively respond to them in the hopes that maybe someone will actually understand what the argument has been about this whole time. And if I didn’t like it, turning off anon magically gets rid of it, so *shrug*.

No, I’m talking about actual, out in the open harassment, or shitty behavior. 

Like oh say, Patreon art being reposted in a discord server, then when a good samaritan reports the art theft they are harassed by their fellow discord members. 

Or maybe the ongoing flagging and harassment campaigns that are going on over almost all online social media platforms. 

Or how about the time some people tried to start a Twitter smear campaign against a voice actor who has some opinions about their ship they don’t like.

Yeah, remember how I said I’ve got a receipts tag. I see ya’ll.

#anti sessrin #anti rinsess #antisessrin #anon #yay I've finally reached the rinse and repeat stage of my blog #next ask from a shipper will be an excuse or validation of sessrin guaranteed

[emperorren]

I know a lot of new shippers came along after tlj and don't know the true craziness of antis, but 2018 was still a frickin mess! For example, November(i think) last year, antis invaded the reylo tag with total bullshit. it's better now that tumblr have sorted out the tagging system, so posts stay were they're meant to, but last year wasn't all sunshine and roses. So shippers who say they're post tlj still should have been around for that shit show.

that’s just a fraction of what the overall discourse was in 2016 though. I mean, main tags can be avoided (I never go there, for example, because there’s too much trash to begin with, antis or not). But in 2016 my entire dashboard was like this. Half my mutuals were like this, general sw blogs couldn’t be trusted, Leia fans couldn’t be trusted, Anakin stans couldn’t be trusted, and bloggers I previously loved suddenly started paying lip service to anti rhetoric calling us sickos and abuse apologists and internalized racists and so on. And I had it relatively easy, compared to other shippers who got death threats and triggering content in their inbox.

The "let us all hold hands and sing the kumbaya" attitude from TLJ Reylos is extra annoying when you realize that many of them were casually liking and reblogging antis' vitriolic posts between TFA and TLJ. I have seen so many of them humorously admitting to it. "Haha I used to think Reylos were crazy but after TLJ I was like hot damn their chemistry is great!"

That’s true. I’m glad that at least some antis came around and fell in love with the reylo dynamic, and I believe in redemption arcs lol, but some OG reylos were actively bullied and doxxed and suicide baited and they 100% have a right to avoid contact with people who previously supported or tacitly tolerated that kind of behavior.

I was in a GC for another fandom last year, totally unrelated to SW, but when I offhand mentioned I was a Reylo it turned out a couple people in the same GC were antis and shit hit the fan. The highlight was prob someone who I thought was my friend bringing up a selfie I’d sent her of me and a male friend at a concert, and trying to use that as “evidence” in an argument that I was straight and he was my boyfriend. Because, you know, a Reylo has to be lying about being queer, because of Reylo

Oh anon, I’m so sorry this happened to you. It’s shitty. It’s literally doxxing, and a horrible betrayal of trust on your ex-friend part. Queer Reylo erasure was unfortunately very common in anti circles. Antis seem to think only white cishet normies can love Reylo---not because it makes any sense, of course, but because it’s the demographic they know they can relentlessly and remorselessly bully while still pretending they’re woke and fighting for a good cause or whatever. And when they’re presented with evidence that actually a lot of Reylos are queer, or non-white, they either assume it’s a lie or bend over backwards to prove that those Reylos have “internalized” -ism.

And what you said describes very well the atmosphere many of us found ourselves in---with people you thought were your friends, or at least nice mutuals, suddenly turning against you or supporting discourse that painted all of us with the same brush as racists, misogynists etc.

I'm so so glad new reylos don't have to deal with the toxicity now that was felt back then. I was new a few months before TLJ came out (mostly because I completely forgot SW was a thing & then I fell upon the wonderful OG reylos' meta), and even that brief amount of toxicity drove me to delete my Tumblr account. I made a new one since then, but I still feel too nervous to make any posts of my own. I tend to just reblog everyone else's thoughtful posts. Thank goodness for blocking buttons & tags. 

I think things changed not just because Reylo got objectively more mainstream and is practically canon now, but also because there’s much more honest discussion about the toxic aspects of this culture. And we Reylos had a part to play in this. We fought back (like other *problematic* shippers did), and we forced anti culture to reveal itself, rather than keep lurking and infiltrating fandom discourse in a underhanded way. We made block lists and recognized potentially toxic patterns in bloggers with a certain theme or certain buzzwords in their blog description. We engaged in public discussions and more and more people started coming out and denouncing how uncomfortable they were with anti arguments. When needed, we closed our ranks and made it clear antis’ feedback on our shipping activities was not welcome. In short, not only we created an environment where our ship could thrive, but we contributed to the rise of an anti-anti culture, which is strongly pro-inclusiveness, pro-intellectualism, pro-intersectionality, pro-nuanced meta analysis, whereas classic anti culture is getting old and relies on the same stifling, reactionary arguments from 5-6 years ago.

#fanwank #anti bs #anti discourse #the old days #fandom #anti culture #asks #multiple asks #anon