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#the back end of season 15 had some of my favorite episodes of the past couple seasons

agentsofmarvel · 1 year

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some of my favorite agents of shield fun facts (season 1 edition)

- while filming the scene where skye gets sh*t by ian quinn in 1x13 [T.R.A.C.K.S], they took hours to film not only because the scene was so intense, but because there was a christmas parade happening nearby that was so loud it kept interrupting the shot.

- another shot interruption occurred in 1x16 when filming scenes at the race track. they couldn’t shut down the track entirely during filming so halfway through a scene a horse would charge past in the background and they would have to reshoot the scene.

- chloe had such a bad driving reputation back in season one that she was banned from driving all golf carts on the lot. she also accidentally stalled a car while rehearsing a scene and everyone panicked.

- they only had 15 days to film 1x01. FIFTEEN DAYS TO FILM EVERYTHING.

- in the end of episode 1x12 [Seeds], there’s a moment where coulson is voicing over and says “the world is full of evil and lies.” during this moment, the camera is on ward. this is one of the first main references of ward secretly being hydra.

- there were three-ish main sets for backgrounds during season one. set 16 was their “labyrinth set” with random sets like the abandoned race track, parts of Providence, john Garrett’s “layer” and a small set for the Freezer.

- clark gregg was so adamant about the casting for the cellist that he actually called audrey nathan personally and told her she was perfect for the role.

- on the day the cast was to meet to discuss filming the last two episodes of the season, a 4.4 earthquake hit los angles which the cast though was foreshadowing the darker episodes to come.

- to represent coulson coming back after what happened to him during the avengers, the wardrobe department tailored his suits differently to give coulson a “new feel”. they really said “let’s mix this shit up and give him a slicker [yes, that’s the word they used] suit.”

- also, coulson never wears black suits after his death due to loki. he only wears shades of grey, never plain black as it reminds him of death.

- the only direction the wardrobe department was given on ward’s outfits was that he needed to look sexy. that’s it.

- as the season progresses, skye wears darker clothes to represent her loss of innocence as the situations get darker.

should i do one for season 2? this was fun and i was bored :)

#agents of shield #aos #agents of s.h.i.e.l.d.#agents of shield season 1 #agents of shield bts #skye agents of shield #grant ward #fitzsimmons #jemma simmons #leo fitz #leopold fitz #melinda may #phil coulson

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canonicallyobserving911 · 9 months

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Overall Assessment of Season 6

I’ve completed 15 detailed “Constructive Criticisms” posts regarding season 6 and I wanted to wrap everything up with an overall assessment for the entire season.

Even though 17% of the season’s 18 episodes were ok, overall, the majority of it wasn’t anything to be excited about especially since 9-1-1’s had some awesome seasons in the past (season 3 was the best). There were three good episodes but the rest could have been sent in an email or yeeted to the sun.

6x3 “The Devil You Know” had great cinematography and the acting from the main and recurring characters along with the guest stars was superb but in my opinion the storyline should have been included in a different franchise. Mainly because it was so dark and heavy that it seemed like it would have been a better fit for “Law & Order: SVU” especially since Tonya Kingston was a special victim. One thing 9-1-1 did EXCEPTIONALLY WELL BEFORE SEASON 5 was balance the lighter storylines with the heavier ones but for the past two seasons they haven’t done a great job of it. Season 5 was heavy enough with Maddie’s PPD and Eddie’s PTSD storylines, therefore the third episode of season 6 shouldn’t have been that heavy and dark. On a positive note, it was part of Athena’s origin story regarding why she became a cop and it properly closed out her storyline even though it started back in season 2.

6x6 “Tomorrow” was good but someone didn’t fact check a lot of the details for it and they didn’t ensure the continuity was there. At the end of 6x5, the promo for 6x6 included Karen calling 9-1-1 but that scene was NOT INCLUDED in the episode. Also, in CANON it was never mentioned that Chimney orchestrated Hen and Karen’s blind date. Finally, the closeout of Hen’s medical school storyline wasn’t fact checked either since in 2x6 she said the reason she became a paramedic was because she got shot when she was 16 and the paramedics who came to help took care of her. Then in 3x9, she told Karen the woman they saw at the spa, Stacy Mullins, was the reason why she became a paramedic. So which one was it or was it both? The audience will never know especially since she didn’t mention either option at the end of 6x6 during her explanation to Karen regarding why she decided to drop out of medical school.

6x13 “Mixed Feelings” was my favorite episode overall because it included A LOT OF BUCK & EDDIE, BUCK & CHRIS AND THE BUCKLEY-DIAZ FAMILY. FULL STOP! Their relationship was missing for 99% of 6A; therefore to see Buck and Eddie side by side along with the Buckley-Diazes spending time together again like they did in 6x1, it was absolute PERFECTION. I’ve already explained in post “#15 – Buddie” how Buck and Eddie’s relationship is the main reason why I watch the show so I won’t elaborate.

All the other episodes didn’t meet the expectations that 9-1-1 established during previous seasons.

6x10 “In a Flash” could have been one of the best episodes of the season but IT WASN’T because the Buckley parents’ and Sang Han’s presences ruined it. It was supposed to be about Buck being struck by lightning (which was shoved into the last 5 minutes of the episode) but they spent the first 40 minutes showing more of his parents, Chimney’s dad and Albert’s mother than they did showing the 118, Athena, May and Chris. Also they SPOILED the majority of Buck’s injury a month before it aired with all the stills and promos they released.

Overall, my biggest criticism about the season is the show didn’t commit to anything. Everything seemed like it was a false start which is kind of sad since they "thought" (I still don’t believe they thought it was the last one) or wanted the audience to believe it was going to be their final season. My false start metaphor can be compared with a “false start” in a track meet. When runners are on their marks and one of them starts before the starter pistol is fired, everyone must go back to the beginning. That’s how I feel about season 6 because every main character was sent back to the beginning instead of showing how far they’ve come. No one, not any individual character or their ships were shown to have moved forward. The finale was a rushed mess and none of it made any narrative sense.

Basically, it appears there was no real purpose for season 6 and if there was one, it got lost in translation since things were discombobulated and all over the place. Storylines were unequally distributed, recurring characters’ arcs were rewritten to make them likeable and the metaphors just kind of fell apart in the end. If there really was a purpose, what was it? The items below are overall assessments for the nine main characters.

Athena needed more storylines than what was provided in 6x3

Bobby’s AA sponsor storyline was atrocious and shouldn’t have been included

Buck’s gazillion storylines should have ended better

Chris deserves his own storylines. He’s a main character but he never gets his own storylines even though Denny (bio dad) and Jee-Yun (Maddie’s engagement ring) had individual storylines this season

Eddie NEEDED MORE STORYLINES! (I’ll keep screaming it because EDDIE DESERVES BETTER!)

Hen’s, Chimney’s and Buck’s quest for interim captain should have been handled better

Hen’s medical school storyline should have ended better

Maddie and Chimney deserved a better plot for their proposal storyline than that raggedy IRS Income Tax mess

May had one main storyline for the whole season but after that, she was barely there

After 6x18 aired, it seemed like someone had an idea about where they wanted the season to go but they didn’t know how to execute it in a way that would make the audience want to return after the HIATUS. Additionally, a lot of time was spent copying storylines from other shows and it appears they didn’t think anyone would notice but it’s apparent from the comments that were left on social media sites, some viewers who watch similar series did notice and they were vocal about it.

In the past, 9-1-1 was unique but somewhere along the way they lost the thing that made them special. In the wastelands of network TV, it was refreshing to watch a show that included everything instead of having separate shows for the police, firefighters and dispatchers like other franchises.

When the season ended, I asked myself the same question I asked after 15 of the 18 episodes aired; “Is that it?” Maybe my expectations were too high but I don’t believe they were since I still watch episodes from seasons 2-4 (3x2 - 3x3 – the Tsunami were fantastic and 4x13 - 4x14; Eddie being shot still haunts me but I love Eddie so I'll watch all the episodes where he gets the screen time he deserves).

Was season 6 supposed to be their legacy? If so, then it was filled with a bunch of raggedy storylines that focused primarily on Buck while ignoring the rest of the main characters. It was like they didn’t want to commit to anything risky or something that would have cemented the show as a groundbreaking TV series that would have audiences talking about it for the next decade or maybe even longer.

This is my overall assessment of season 6 and whenever the show returns, hopefully it will have returned to being uniquely 9-1-1 instead of some knock off version of the other 3 or 4 firefighting shows out there in the already oversaturated market of emergency television shows on network TV.

I’ve included links to all the “Constructive Criticisms” posts below along with their topics.

#1 - Lack of and/or inconsistencies with interviews, promos, stills, trailers, etc.

#2 - Recurring Characters OVERSHADOWED Main Characters

#3 - Undeserved and Unearned Parent Redemptions

#4 - Unequal Distribution of Storylines

#5 - Continuity Errors and Forced Narratives

#6 - Season Six or Season of Sex

#7 - Stereotypes in Season 6

#8 - Lack of Professional Development and Growth

#9 - The use of Metaphors, Themes and Theories

#10 - Bathena

#11 - Henren

#12 - Madney

#13 - Evan “Buck” Buckley

#14 - Edmundo “Eddie” Diaz

#15 - Buddie

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ahwp · 6 months

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This is the Sippy Saturday Podcast Brought to you by At Home With Piper and The Harrington Foundation.

Season 1 Episode 1: Life Be Lifin'

Piper smiles at the camera as she's given a countdown by her producer. As she’s given her cue, she parts her lips and begins her introduction from her seat on the blush pink couch.

Piper: Hey babes! Welcome to the inaugural episode of the Sippy Saturday Podcast, brought to you by At Home with Piper. Today’s episode is sponsored by The Harrington Foundation. I’m Piper, your host, and new bestie. As if you couldn’t tell by the sash and crown, it’s my fucking birthdayyyy!!! (She chuckles softly as she repositions the mic and opens a bottle of tequila, pouring a shot.) On tonight’s episode, it’s just me and you, talking about life and how it’s been whipping my ass for the past few years cause, baby, life has been lifing the fuck out of me. So grab a drink, if you’re smart, you’ve already made you a Sippy Saturday cocktail from my At Home With Piper website, grabbed your snacks, and are sitting comfy waiting on the tea. Let’s toast to a good night, the happiest of birthdays for myself and anyone else celebrating, and an amazing Episode.

(The scene cuts to a prerecorded clip of Piper making the drink of the night. )

Piper: Tonight’s Mocktail is one of my favs, the Spicy Paloma. The recipe will be linked below with some alcohol substitute for my drinkers out there. (She takes a sip and rocks side to side while tasting it. She taps the glass with her finger nails and smacks her lips) Mhm.. I’m telling you guys, you have to try it. It’s a must.

Piper: A few very important things to know about me, I’m a 28 year old entrepreneur and a mommy of 2. I’m in therapy weekly and it’s the only thing other than God, keeping me from ending a few mother fuckers. Praise God. My kids are my world. I love my babies with my whole being and wouldn’t trade them for the world. Now let’s circle back to therapy. Baby get you some! Okay? Okay! Cause listen, the shit I’ve experienced these past few years, was enough to make me lose my mind. I completely lost myself, I’m talking didn’t recognize myself in the mirror, lost. I was so sad and depressed and just pushed away everyone I loved. Looking back on my life, younger me never expected any of the things she has now. Not the money, the houses, the kids, the experiences, none of it. I didn’t expect a bad life, but I thought my life would be really simple. I’d still be back home, I’d own a modest house and I’d be a school teacher. I just wanted to be happy and content. Instead, I’m a single mom of two, and while I’m killing this shit, this shit is not for the faint of heart. Granted I do have more resources than some other moms and I’m not saying that it’s hard in that way, but let’s not act as though carrying, birthing, and then caring for life isn’t something hard that all moms struggle with despite finances. I had a solid plan for my life and while a lot of it has come to pass, this family dynamic is not what I expected.

I grew up going back and forth between Rhode Island and New York. I’m the oldest of 4 girls and I was the favorite. Sorry girls, but it’s true. Ask daddy. (She laughs.) Life wasn’t hard even when it was. My parents made sure we didn’t see or feel the hardships of a young married black couple living part time in uptown New York or the two bedroom flat in Rhode Island that they owned but could barely afford. It was during all the back and forth that I met my ex husband at 15. I plan to have him on here one day and we can tell that story then. But basically, we were together for 8 years before he moved to LA. I followed him months later. I was a kindergarten teacher and was in college getting my bachelor’s of nursing degree. I graduated and moved to LA and when I got here, all that sweet phone talk about what life would be if I moved out here turned into some “you need to find your self ” bullshit. (She lowers her voice to mimic her ex’s and laughs and takes another sip of her drink.) Granted, his arguments ended up being true. I had been with him since I was 15. I really didn’t know who I was as a woman without him. So we break up for a while and then get back to gather, have a kid and get married. This man was my first everything. The first man I ever loved no one could have told me, we wouldn’t have lasted. Not even a year into our marriage were we divorced. My life had become motherhood and trying to please him, while his life had become being our provider and protector and we lost one another. We both saw it and I thought we were working on it, and then I found out he had cheated. It was public. I was humiliated. I remember feeling like I had failed, my self, my son, my parents. I couldn’t understand how. I followed the rules. (She uses air quotes as she sets her glass on the table next to her) This was the first time i experienced depression. PPD and divorce was kicking my ass. I was hyper focused on my son to the point that I started to push away my friends, and I wouldn't even take care of myself. I would shower everyday and that was it. There were days that i didn't eat or sleep because I just couldn't bring myself to do anything that didn't involve taking care of Prince. When I finally snapped out of it and started to get a sense of myself again, I vowed to not date. Luckly, I had some friends talk some sense into me. This is when I met Greyson, my daughter's father. At the time, I was very new to dating. I hadn't been with anyone other than Caleb my entire life. I was naive and ignored key signs that this wasn't a good partnership simply because I felt wanted to feel loved and Greyson gave me that feeling. Let me take it a few steps back and reintroduce our story to you from the eyes of a whole woman. This is a part of my story and in no means do I mean to break Greyson down, but I will not lie. I was clearly in a manipulative relationship filled with gaslighting, and love bombing. In no way do I absolve myself of my poor choices in dating this man and then having a child with him, but I will not keep quiet or spare him simply to save face. I fucked up unintentionally, but his intentions were clearly malice from the start.

When I met him, I wasn’t trying or expecting to fall for anyone. I’d actually made up my mind that I’d be single and I just wanted to have some fun. Either way, we dated off and on for about 4 months before making it official. We took a trip together and we had sex for the first time. I ended up pregnant but I didn’t know that i was until until weeks later while I was dealing with the grief of losing my mom. I feel like this was the start of the major red flags in our relationship. This man would be extremely present and loving and then go missing for weeks at a time. Looking back on my pregnancy, I don’t have many fond memories. Was he there during my mom’s passing, yes, but beyond that it was very hit and miss. I didn’t get to enjoy it unless I was being celebrated by my friends. I had no shower, no gender reveal, and I only had a maternity shoot because I made myself do it. I really put on a happy face while going through hell. Not just because I’d lost my mom but because I was in an unplanned pregnancy with a man who would up and disappear on me with no warning and then come back and love bomb the fuck out of me and gaslight me to hell. I started to realize this in my pregnancy and for reasons known now, I thought I should hold on. I knew in my mind, that I could fix this. This was something minor. He wasn’t use to relationships and I was only use to the one that I’d been in for 10 years that had failed. So here I am, a year removed from a very long term relationship and in a very new relationship, unexpectedly pregnant, and my man was love bombing me. He was inconsistent and always in some shit. I put on a smile and took care of home. Things were not great but they weren’t bad. Thats what I kept telling myself. We had some work to do but nothing that couldn’t be repaired. That was my mindset, until I realized that I was in deed on some bullshit. My daughter barely knew her dad and I was okay with just dealing with that to save face. To hold out hope that he would fix things, that this relationship, wouldn’t be a failure. That I would get my happy ending. Well that shit ended in the fiery pits of hell. I was one foot out the door by the end of it and had left my own home and was staying with my sister Syx a few weeks before things ended. Do yall know this man had the audacity to ask me to change my name but wasn’t ready to marry me? Yeah. We had an entire argument about why I still have my ex’s last name and why he wouldn’t marry me because of it. Despite the fact that this was something discussed on one of our first dates. That moment was the defining moment for me. I knew things were done. How could you love me but have no regard for me or my son? A few weeks after we talked and were trying yet again, his disappeared and I havent seen or heard from him since. No calls to see his daughter, no desire to be a dad yet this child was something he wanted so bad. Needless to say, I was pissed. It was an anger I’d never felt before. It took me such a long time get myself out of that space but here we are. I was so angry that I wanted to physically hurt this man, not because of how he had done me but becauwe he abandoned his child. My daughter is the sweetest thing. She’s so loving and smart and I know we all say that about our kids but my babygirl is something so special and I’m so angry with myself for making the choice I made in her father because he’s just a sorry excuse of a man. I tried so hard to not talk down about him but how can you not tell the truth about a person? (She sighs and sits back) the honest truth is I feel like I’ve held myself back from moving forward by trying to protect him and his character. I’ve filmed this episode 5 or 6 times and each time has ended in me crying and cursing him out in the unholiest of ways. I’m talking certifiable unhinged behavior. My therapist got a big check after those sessions. What’s changed though is the fact that I know my kids are better off without him and his influence.

As I'm growing, I’m learning more and more about myself and just life in general. For years, basically my entire life, I felt like a child needed both parents, or that I had to follow the rules if I wanted to be happily married or raise amazing kids and that’s simply not true. My babies are well rounded, well traveled, respectful, honest, and loving. I’ve done an amazing job. I have an amazing family and support system that loves my children like their own. I couldn’t ask for a better village. I believed that I my marriage would be successful because I’m a good woman who cooks, cleans, makes her own money and has other great attributes and talents. (Piper winks at the camera as she sips from her glass.) It didn’t take me long to learned that you can be perfect for someone and that shit can still go wrong. You can do your part, be the most loyal, humblest person and people will still fuck you over and walk all over you. Shit happens. Is it okay? No, but what can you learn from it? What is God trying to teach you? I feel like this past year has been the most important year of my life. I don’t work as hard, I spend more time with my kids making memories, my sister and I moving together and we’re raising our kids as a family and it’s the most wholesome shit I’ve ever done. I feel so at peace knowing that this year brought me peace by any means necessary. God did not play about me. He taught me patience, made me more aware of my own weaknesses and strengths, granted me favor and peace of mind while navigating all the shit I mentioned prior to now and the things I didn’t. He taught me the importance of letting things go so that I can move on. I’m a very empathetic person and I carry so much weight on my shoulders to understand everyone and to be understood. In the past that has caused me more hurt than anything. Instead of walking away, I’d try to fix things that don’t serve me. I don’t want to be that girl anymore. I can’t be her. I have two kids that literally don’t eat unless I feed them. They depend on me and I refuse to let them down. I say all do this to say, if you’re in a season where you feel like it’s blow after to blow, attack after attack, it gets better. If you’re in a place where you can’t look yourself in the mirror without crying or feeling like you e lost yourself, then wipe your tears and remind yourself who the fuck you are. That shit it momentary. It gets better. I don’t care what anyone says. It gets better because it has to. No weapon formed against you can prosper against you, because it’s not strong enough to. We’re not meant to stay down. We’re meant to learn something and then use it to bring ourselves as the other people like us out of that hole we feel buried in. Sometimes you need a little help. Therapy was quintessential in helping me through my toughest times. Because I want this podcast to be focused on purging the negativity and creating a positive environment for growth and development, I’ve created a foundation focused on supplying resources for those who just need a little help in life.

The Harrington Foundation is a non profit organization that is partnering with local therapists to bring free therapy to those in need in our local communities. This foundation is not only meant to bring forth grief counseling and mental health services to the community but other outreach programs like feeding the hungry and housing the homeless. Too often do we hear the stories of someone needing help with no one willing to give it. I will not be that person. If you would like to help the cause, feel free to donate at the link below or visit theharringtonfound.org. If you are in need of assistance in any way, be it therapy, paying a bill, help finding a home, contact us at 1-888-8888. We have funds readily available to help those in need. Thank you all for listening to me rant about my troubles and passion for growth. This has been the Sippy Saturday Podcast. Thank you for joining means I hope I see you next week. Love yall now bye! I got to go feed these kids. I didn’t even finish my drink Chile. (Piper laughs as the scene cuts to the ad for the Harrington Foundation and her other businesses.)

#Ahwp #SSP #Sippy Saturday Pod #THF

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the-conversation-pod · 10 months

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Summer 2023 Lagniappe

We made it to the end of the season, folks! Time for all of the extra discussions that just didn't fit into the structure of the season. Nini and Ben are both from the Caribbean and share the word "lagniappe" which means "a little extra" (kinda like a baker's dozen).

This time we've got quite a few things to discuss, and we also have our first guest! Ben's best friend David joins us for the Season Wrap-Up conversation.

We're going to answer some questions from @ctl-yuejie and @mynameisnotthepoint.

Nini caught up on My Only 12 Percent, Roommates of Poongduck 304, and She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat.

We unpack the eldritch horror that was The Shipper. We will not be discussing it ever again.

We discuss the execution of polyamory in Me, My Husband, and My Husband's Boyfriend.

We then hang out with David and discuss genre history, favorite actors, flops-and-trends, and award our Girl, You Tried award for this season.

Finally, we look ahead to the fall!

Listen on Apple Podcasts!

Listen on Google Podcasts!

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

0:00 - Welcome 1:15 - Intro 3:14 - Talk Nice to Us 3:36 - How Did We Get into QL, and How Has the Podcast Changed Us? 9:10 - How Does Criticism and Commentary Change Your Viewing Experience? 13:11 - Catch Up Corner 13:59 - My Only 12 Percent 22:52 - Roommates of Poongduck 304 26:14 - She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat 30:09 - The Shipper 59:46 - Next Watches 1:02:33 - Me, My Husband, and My Husband’s Boyfriend 1:15:53 - Spring Roundup 1:16:40 - David Introduction and BL Background 1:18:50 - David’s History with Queer Cinema 1:20:59 - David’s Favorite BL Actors 1:23:24 - David’s Thoughts on the Spring Shows 1:26:15 - Somewhat Forgettable Shows 1:29:25 - Favorite Actor Pairs 1:36:49 - The Changing Nature of BLs 1:39:34 - Girl, You Tried 1:46:56 - Looking Ahead 1:57:44 - Outro

The Conversation: Now With Transcripts!

We received an accessibility request to include transcripts for the podcast. We are working with @ginnymoonbeam on providing the transcripts and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes. When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

0:00 - Welcome

Nini

Hello, hello! Your QL fandom aunty and uncle are here with giant sunglasses, brown liquor in a flask, a folded five-dollar bill to slip into your hand when no one is looking, lukewarm takes, occasional rides on the discourse, deep dives into artistry and the industry.

Ben

Lots of simping! I’m Ben.

Nini

I’m Nini.

Ben

And this is The Conversation. About once a season, we plan to swan in and shoot the shit on faves, flops, and trends that we’ve been noticing in the BL, GL, or QL Industry. Between seasons, you can find us typing way too many words on Tumblr.

1:15 - Intro

David

Hey, guys. My name is Dave. I'm your new favorite BL B-Asterisk-T-C-H and I'm here to introduce Nini and Ben—who don't really need any introduction, but I'm an extra bitch. So that's why I'm here. They're giving out awards. There's shadin’ shows. They're uplifting some shows, but mostly shade. So, welcome, tune in, have fun, and I'll see you guys in the episode. It's gonna be a lot of me, so be prepared, like, it's a lot.

Bye, guys!

Nini

We have our first guest on the show—not for the last time, because we had so much fun with David. David's going to be back.

Ben, what are we talking about? This is the lagniappe.

Ben

So, the lagniappe, as always, is going to be the bits that just didn't fit into the format of the other episodes thematically or in a way that we thought was necessarily interesting. So, we also figured out that Spotify has a question and answer tool and a commenting section, so please use it. We're having a lot of fun with it.

We're going to answer some questions from some friends of ours—one old, one new. We're going to talk about Nini catching up when She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat, Roommates of Poongduck 304, as well as My Only 12 Percent. Nini and I are going to stare into the abyss and scream about the eldritch horror that was The Shipper. We're gonna promise you all some things for the future. We're gonna talk about a very complicated show in Me, My Husband, and My Husband's Boyfriend. And then finally, with David’s very specific presence here, we're going to unpack the entire spring season and generally qiqi for a bit.

Nini

It's delightful. Y'all are going to have a lot of fun see see you in the episode.

3:14 - Talk Nice to Us

Ben

On to the Talk Nice to Us section! Some of you lovely listeners—we still have not figured out what we wanna call you; please chime in and let us know—has sent us a couple of questions, one from an old friend of mine on Tumblr, and one from a new friend of the show.

Nini, please take us into the questions.

3:36 - How Did We Get into QL, and How Has the Podcast Changed Us?

Nini

Ok, so the first question is from @ctl-yuejie, and they write, “I am curious how and why you two started watching QL, what your first impressions were, and how they might have changed over time and after starting a podcast about it?”

So, Ben, how would you answer that question?

Ben

As a known homosexual and amateur cinenophile, [Nini laughs] I was bored and stressed with the Western Queer Cinema when I discovered BL. SOTUS comes out in…2016. I was desperate for a fresh infusion of queer cinema. There was a huge dearth of content happening in the 2010s.

I really like queer stories, and I really like queer people getting to have fun and have a good time, and one of the things that stood out about SOTUS that felt fresh at the time was how forthright Kongpob was. I also liked that it was giving a commentary on its own society at the time, and I was basically hooked on QL from that point on.

One, there was just a whole lot more of it—even with the small amount of content we had in 2016, 2017, 2018—there was more time spent with those shows than like all of the queer movies I watched in that year from the West.

That's why I'm here, and then I met Nini, and she was like, “I want to talk about the shows and I want to do a podcast.” And I was like, “Well let's not think about it. Let's just do it.”

Now we're here. What about you?

Nini

We talked about some of this stuff in our very first intro episode. I have been around fandom for a really long time. I have been familiar with the concept of BL. Sometime around the end of 2020 or beginning of 2021, some edit of I Told Sunset About You showed up on my YouTube, and I was desperate to find it. Back then it wasn't easily findable. And so, in trying to find it, I cycled through Life: Senjou no Bokura, Gaya Sa Pelikula, and Where Your Eyes Linger before I found I Told Sunset About You finally.

So I got here at the beginning of 2021, and I just started devouring what I could find. And then, yeah, met Ben on the Tumblrs, and I said to Ben, “Hey, Ben, you write nice about things. I want to do a podcast because I want to do deep dives into some of this stuff.” And Ben said “Bet” and here we are.

In terms of how my impressions of QL have changed over time and after starting this podcast, I am…familiar with the rhythms of some of this media now, and so things that probably would have irked me at the beginning don't irk me anymore or I enjoy them. I think I watch the shows differently now. When I'm watching I'm always thinking about, “Oh, I wonder what Ben's gonna say about this?” Which is fun! ‘Cause usually I am spot on.

How about you, Ben? How have your thoughts about BL, QL, GL, and fandom changed since starting the podcast?

Ben

One of the useful bits about the podcast versus say…blogging and essay writing is…the conversation itself forces me to think differently about the shows. Like I don't come into the podcast recordings with a bunch of, like, scripts written out for what I want to talk about. I sometimes give us questions to focus on that I think will get us into the meat of what that particular project was trying to dig into. But it's talking with each other and then it's the discussions with other people that really elevate the entire experience for me.

I think what I've enjoyed the most about the podcast is…I feel like the shows are not one and done anymore. I feel like I'm exiting the very sort of masculine style of fandom engagement—which is mostly watching, memorizing, cataloging—and I'm very much enjoying the transformative part…of fandom where we talk about the shows, unpack them. I find myself being significantly more engaged than I was previously, and it makes me a little more picky about what I watch.

Like, if I know I'm not going to talk about the show with you I'm far more likely to just dismiss the show.

Nini

It's true. There are some times where just like, “Ugh, God. I mean, if Ben's gonna watch this I guess I'm gonna have to watch it, too.” Doing the show has been really great from that regard in that I have watched things that I would have originally dismissed because of Ben— sometimes I don't love them. But most of the time when Ben says “you should watch this” I find it really worthy.

9:10 - How Does Criticism and Commentary Change Your Viewing Experience?

@mynameisnotthepoint writes, ”How is your balance with consuming a piece of media and consuming the meta around it? Have you had it happen that the meta around it—reading up on things—completely changed your mind on a series?”

Ben, has reading meta ever changed your mind about something that you watched?

Ben

The simple answer is yes; the complex answer is no.

None of us are immune to receiving new inputs from other people, and people read things differently from me. I do find value in other people's perspectives. I like understanding where people are writing from. But it's very rare that somebody saw something in a show that was so groundbreaking that I also didn't see it in the first place. The big beats of the story are rarely something that I missed while participating along the way. We're all pretty smart, and the shows are rarely trying to trick us. So, it's very rare that, like, somebody's like, “Aha! It was the butler in the kitchen with the candlestick!” and I'm like, “How did you predict that?”

Nini

How I prefer to engage with the meta doesn't lead a lot of the time to me changing my mind about a show, but it has happened that I have been…persuaded not out of my particular read but more into seeing another read as valid. In my head I can hold two ideas, so I can be like, “Well this thing, I read it this way. This person read it that way.” I think both of those things can be happening at the same time. I don't feel like my read is exclusive to every other read.

It's fun to talk to people about these things. I'm with Ben. A lot of the enjoyment in these shows other than watching some of the shows themselves—not all—is in talking to people about the shows and finding out what where their perspectives are coming from and seeing where our perspectives intersect, and where they might run parallel, and where they might conflict, but then how that conflict may not be a conflict at all. It's the twisty intellectual side of things that I really enjoy, and then also just the emotional side—having those conversations, getting to know people through their experience of media and my experience of media. I find that incredibly fun and rewarding. It's one of the reasons that I do the podcast with Ben.

For me, the answer is yes sometimes my mind is changed by meta, but more often than not my thinking is expanded—not changed—by taking in meta.

Ben

Expand is a good way to describe it. I do think most shows that are good benefit from really invested people with the ability to communicate their thoughts sharing them determinedly week in week out. I'm a big fan of meta, basically.

Keep writing! If you listen to us, keep writing!

We don't get to make friends with people if you guys are just lurking! Please write! Write on tumblr. Write on your blogs. Write to us. Whatever you do, just keep writing! We want to hear what you're thinking about the shows.

13:11 - Catch Up Corner

Nini

This is the Spring Catch Up Corner. We've got a doozy of one for you guys to round out the end of this but we're going to start with a few things that I caught up on in the spring mostly because Ben would not shut up about them.

Ben

[laughs] It's true though!

Nini

So in the spring I watched She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat (in Japanese: Tsukuritai Onna to Tabetai Onna), then Roommates of Poongduck 304, and My Only 12 Percent. Since Ben is breaking up with New this season I'm going to start with My Only 12 Percent.

13:59 - My Only 12 Percent

Ben

Okay I thought we were going to have fun first with, like, She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat. It's like directly into My Only 12 Percent! “And another thing! Smack!”

Nini

We always go from worst to first, but we're ending this particular catchup with the worst because of what it is.

Ben

Man…[sighs]

Nini

I'm just gonna go with My Only 12 Percent. We don't I think need to do like the reminder to everybody about what My Only 12 Percent is because we've talked about it in the VIIB Awards. You all should go back and listen to that episode—I'm not exactly sure which episode it is but I will probably put it in the show description.

So. I looked at it I watched it…[Nini sighs, Ben laughs]…and—okay, I'm gonna be real real with you, okay?

Ben

Okay.

Nini

I cannot say that I liked My Only 12 Percent. But I also cannot say that I disliked My Only 12 Percent.

There were moments, there were moments to My Only 12 Percent that I did like, but, like, the first two-thirds of the show I just found incredibly frustrating. I am not really a Cooheart fan as an actor. Actually, let me take that back.

Ben

Yeah, that's right, you better correct yourself.

Nini

I think Cooheart is talented. I would like to see him work with somebody else, because he has only worked with New, and I think he and New bring out the worst in each other in the director-actor relationship. I think that occasionally they reach certain heights but I think that working together, they lean into some old techniques, they lean on things that they're accustomed to doing with each other and it doesn't work for me.

One of the things I would like to see Cooheart do is play older and New always has him play younger, and in this particularly he plays really young. And it's the effect of it is unsettling for me even when they age him up a little bit. I can’t slide away from the acting he was doing earlier in the show when he was playing like 15-16 and it's just it's hard for me to recalibrate once they age him up.

The things I do like about the show. I like how Cake and Eiw were just—they were just like that the whole time from like the day they were born, I guess. Like, the first day that they were ever put in a crib together they were just like that. I mean everybody else more or less knew what it was and how they felt about each other, but nobody forced them to figure it out or forced them to explain it or anything like that. They just let them figure it out for themselves. I liked the realization part of things. I did like that scene where Eiw is watching Love of Siam—which is something else that I have to put on my catch up list—and you see the moment when he understands something about himself. I, too, I'm a person who has light bulb moments watching media.

So, I am a fan of characters who work things out by having, like, a media moment. I like that the two of them were just always connected and they figured out for themselves how they felt. I liked the fight that they had in episode 12 when everything sort of comes to a head because Eiw knows how he feels. Cake knows how he feels, but neither of them is really talking to each other about it. They're just trying to fall back into their old patterns without laying on the table what the feelings are. And, of course, it becomes an issue and they have a fight about it because Cake is jealous. This is the kind of jealousy I like, where things are unsettled and one character is like I cannot hold in anymore how I feel. I am upset about this thing that you're doing, or this person that you're talking to, and the reason for that is because I feel this way about you. And the other character is like, “Well, fucking finally!”

So I did like their fight. I thought that Cooheart was very good in their fight. I liked Santa and his connection with him in the fight. I always like to see a good fight between the two main characters when something has been building up for a while. It was really good.

One of the other scenes that was really good was their first time scene. The way that it happened was very gentle. It was very matter of fact, almost. It wasn't like a big planned romantic thing. It just kind of happened because they were just there and vibing. I like that. But this show felt like New [Ben laughs] and not in the good way.

Ben

There It is.

Nini

It felt like classic New Siwaj! It felt like New Siwaj doing Make It Right. It felt like New Siwaj in the parts of Until We Meet Again that piss me off.

There's, like, a lot of minutiae. Stuff that's happening around the characters that's not really important to the narrative or the character building. It's just a bunch of stuff that's happening and he just insists on showing it in detail. There's way too many side characters. They drag out the main story, like it takes 12 episodes—12 of 14 episodes—for Cake and Eiw to get to the point where they can even have the conversation. And then there's, like, some weird blushing maiden shit which I never like.

And then the thing that New always does which is that the last minute brings out some left field bullshit out of nowhere, that has absolutely no relation to anything else, and just kind of stops sorry dead in his tracks. In this instance, it's Eiw’s mom is dying randomly all of a sudden because their dad used to smoke when he lived with them. Their dad hasn't lived with them for like—what over a decade? So their mom has third hand smoke cancer. It's just out of nowhere. I can't understand why it's there.

So basically I didn't dislike it but I didn't like the show either. If I had to give it a score I would probably give it…a 6. It's okay.

Ben

Harsh. [laughs]

Nini

It's New Siwaj on his New Siwaj bullshit. That's gonna be a 6 for me.

Ben

Well, I'm glad you at least humored me and watched it. I feel differently now that New has irritated me twice in the last couple of months, first with Double Savage and then with A Boss and a Babe. That being said, I hope that someday he earns the moments he really wants to hit, because what he's trying to do is actually really interesting. Two best friends who've been in love with each other in one way shape or form their entire lives, and it takes them over 20 years to find an alignment that works for them. I'm into that.

Nini

Listen, New gon’ New, and I don't have to put up with it anymore.

Ben

That's honestly one of the most unexpected takeaways of this whole season for us was realizing that I don't think I like New Siwaj anymore.

I'm not mad at him. I just feel a little bit sad, because he reminds me of a lot of guys who I knew when I was in college who mean really well. They just don't really know people or how to interact with them. That's how a lot of New’s stuff feels, particularly his whole thing with revealing context after someone has really fucked up something. Because that's how he gets things. Like he fucks up something, and likely somebody yelled at him and explained it to him, and he was like “oh damn,” and then he wrote it down in this journal, and then he turned it into one of his scenes in his shows.

Nini

I think we've talked enough about New Siwaj. We talked about New Siwaj literally the entire season. I am over him. Let's move on.

Ben

Very well.

22:52 - Roommates of Poongduck 304

Nini

The second thing that I watched—and this one I actually quite liked—I watched Roommates of Poongduck 304.

This was actually pretty good. It was a solid little workplace drama out of Korea. I quite liked the way that they balanced out the boss and employee relationship by having them flip it at home and be landlord and renter. I always like when these boss-subordinate relationships have some kind of other power dynamic going on next to it.

I really liked the characters. I thought they were fun. Watching Holland play like…[laughs]… a scamming-ass, down-dirty—like, he's supposed to be his friend but he's just stealing from him—let's just be real. It was delightful in certain ways but it was also heartbreaking because watching Jae Yoon get scammed and taken advantage of by not just Holland—who I can't remember the character's name even though I liked the show—but watching him get scammed by all his friends. It was just really hard. I kind of was like, “Aw, baby…You need to be more careful about who you let into your life.”

But, yeah, I enjoyed this. I really enjoyed this. I thought that the work stuff was really integrated well into the romantic story and vice versa. For essentially a rom-com setup, it was quite realistic and quite fun. Yeah! I had a good time with this.

Ben

I really liked this show a lot, and I feel like…this show is underrated. I agree with you. I think this is one of the rare K-BLs that understands how much time they have exactly and what they want to do with that time. I think they balance the relationships in a way that makes it fun, and it's not just one person getting picked on by the other the whole time.

And, like, the only thing that really I don't like in this show—is the same thing I usually don't like with the Korean stuff—is the way they handle alcohol in the shows that usually makes me uncomfortable. Seo Jae Yoon, I don't like the way he drinks. But, given the friends he has, I guess I'll let him have it.

Nini

Hoo! Listen, his friends are trash, throw the friends away, throw all the friends away. My God! The other friend who is basically like in an MLM and keeps making him buy shit...

Ben

Now that was gross.

Nini

What was the name that he had for him on his phone?

Ben

I don't know, but I remember being, like, really embarrassed about it. Like, it was basically like “fool” or…

Nini

Yeah, it was something like that. It was really mean. It was basically something that implied like he was just somebody that this guy was taking advantage of.

Ben

Like it basically felt like he called him “chump” and put him in his phone as that.

Nini

Yeah…and it was ugly but it was part of a character arc for Jae Yoon as well to understand that he deserved better than these friends who would use him like this, and I did like that. It's a solid little show, very enjoyable. I would recommend it to people. I liked it.

26:14 - She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat

So, today of all the days, the day we're recording, we got the news that there is going to be a second season of this: She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat.

Ben

I'm so fucking relieved. [Nini laughs] I really am! I will let you talk first but my goodness am I relieved that we're getting a season 2. [Ben laughs]

Nini

So, back in the VIIB Awards when we're talking about the GLs of the year, Ben laid this one out as one of the ones that he really enjoyed. He called it the lesbian What Did You Eat Yesterday? and being a great fan of What Did You Eat Yesterday? I was like, “Okay, bet. I will definitely watch this at some point.”

So I found myself with some time, and I cracked open the old computer machine, and I decided I'm gonna watch She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat, and—oh my god—how lovely. It's so lovely. I love the show! I love it so much! Watching this gentle…kind of slow gravitation between Nomoto and Kasuga. I smile the entire time. It was so lovely. ‘Lovely’ is the word that just comes to mind when I think about it.

And then Kasuga talking about how she has never felt accepted, or never felt understood…Nomoto starting to understand in herself how she's always felt separate from everybody. And then Nomoto watching Kasuga eat at every day basically, and those sessions them having dinner becoming more and more sexual…The look on Nomoto's face when she watches Kasuga eat becoming more and more mouth open kind of “this is hot” kind of thing.

And her not even realizing that that's what's happening to her: that she is becoming sexually attracted to Kasuga, and particularly to watching Kasuga eat.

Oh, God, love it. Love it. Love it. Love it. And then, as the show goes on, she starts to acknowledge and accept the fact that she's attracted to Kasuga—that she's sexually attracted to Kasuga. At the point in time that the story ends in season 1—now I can say that: in season 1—I remember thinking, “Oh my god! It's not finished! I need so much more of this—”

Ben

And that's why I'm so fucking relieved.

Nini

It ends when they're really starting to adjust their relationship from friends to a romantic relationship.

So, we are getting a second season of this of 20 episodes next year in 2024, and I personally cannot wait. I love that all the Japanese shit that I really glommed onto in the last few months are all getting sequels.

So, there was the Utsukushii Kare sequel first, then we found out earlier that we're getting a second season of What Did You Eat Yesterday? and now She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat.

I am very glad that I took your recommendation on two-thirds of this list. [laughs]

Ben

Shade. [laughs]

Nini

On all of it. There was stuff to hold on to in My Only 12 Percent. The totality of it just wasn't for me. So I'm glad that I watched all three of these, but of the three, my absolute favorite thing that you recommended that I watch is She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat.

30:09 - The Shipper

Nini

We've talked about the lovely fun things and now it's time to descend into hell.

Ben

Last time we left you all, Nini and I decided that we would watch The Shipper from 2020 and report back to you all, because we liked a lot of the folks involved and thought it would be really interesting to give a show that we knew had had some complicated responses when it first aired a genuine watch. Well, we've had the opportunity to watch it, and we just finished it, and we have a lot to say.

So, before we get into our immediate reactions, the simple breakdown of The Shipper is that it is a high school setting show in which two girls who’re writing sexy fic about two older boys at their school that they love and ship. This eventually leads to some kerfuffles in their school. Our protagonist, Pan, ends up riding with one of the boys home one night. They get into a car crash, killing both of them. In the afterlife, they meet the god of death—who is played by Jennie Panhan. They sass Jennie a bit, she mushes their faces, and sends them back to Earth, but accidentally switches their bodies, and then Pan has to live as Kim—the boy that she's been viewing as part of her ship for a long time clearly—for some time, where she realized she doesn't exactly know him that well, and then starts to reevaluate how she's always perceived him.

A lot of other things happen. There are some ideas that are half-baked in this, and it's very clear that the show was fighting a thematic war within the writers room itself. And quite frankly, it left me and Nini both dissatisfied and deeply disturbed to put it mildly.

Before I hand it over to Nini, I just want to say real quick, this is the first time in MDL history that I think I'll be giving a show a 1.

So, Nini, we just finished The Shipper. How are you feeling?

Nini

I'm going to let MDL user jarabaa speak for me, and I quote: “I found the series so intensely disagreeable that my feelings of shock and unease will probably stay with me a long time whenever I think of The Shipper.” End quote. I think that says it all.

Ben

‘Disagreeable’ is really such an accurate term.

Nini

This just reiterates to me that sometimes when we both have a gut feeling about something, we should trust that, because we both had a gut feeling that we would not like this show, which is why we never watched it. And now, having watched it, I think we were both correct.

Ben

I feel so validated in my decision in 2020. I took one look at that show and I said ‘hell to the no’ and I wish we hadn't been curious in going back.

Nini

They say, “Curiosity killed the cat?” Well, I feel like a dead kitty right now because…What? Was? That? [sighs]

Okay, I'm going to try—I'm going to try to actually formulate some sentences that are descriptive and helpful in order to lay out why I never want to think about this show again after we finish recording this.

Ben

Getting into some specifics about what may have happened along the way here: There were some interesting ideas presented early in the show that the people who ship people don't really know the people involved; that they have a false notion of them based upon surface details and the fictional things they've created about them. There's an interesting idea in this, particularly as it pertains to shipping real people who exist with each other as opposed to say fictional characters.

Early on the show really says something special with Pan realizing she didn't actually know who Kim was when she was forced to live as him, because she thought she knew who he was, and I made the joke when we were watching, like, the first episode, like, that, “You know, he's just a hole to her,” [Nini chuckles]...I didn't realize that that's what the theme of the show was going to be…

Like, spoilers for the end of The Shipper, only one of them survives Jennie mushing them in the face. First is apparently too weak. Prigkhing is so much stronger. And so Prigkhing gets to live as First’s character for a while. Eventually one of their bodies has to go and they make the decision for Pan to keep her body and for Kim (First’s character) to die.

How we get there is a huge mess and by the time it finished the show read extremely homophobic and lesbophobic to Nini and myself.

Nini

Oh, throw in transphobic.

Ben

And transphobic. I'll let you take on that portion.

For me, one of the things that was kind of interesting introduced along the way was that they were shipping two boys together because maybe they picked up on the homosocial tension between them, and what we learn along the way is that these boys actually did have a homoromantic relationship brewing between them. But it was nothing like anything that these girls had really imagined. I don't think I'd give much thought to the depths of the feelings between these two boys. And what we end up learning about the actual relationship between Kim and Way, the two boys that they’re shipping, played by First Kanaphan and Fluke Pusit respectively, ends up being fairly compelling, and I was deeply invested in what they might have done with those boys’ dynamic, particularly if we'd have gotten a see who Kim actually was.

But what ends up happening along the way that ends up frustrating me is critical moments that should have belonged to two gay boys…never get to happen for them…and what happens because the the narrative chooses to have the Kim character be dead the whole time, it makes all of Way’s expressed feelings for Kim, particularly after the accident, all feel super unrequited.

I'm not opposed to exploring queer grief, but I don't like the way it's done here. It feels cheap.

I'm gonna let Nini get into the specifics of this, because she said it multiple times when we were watching this: “this show wants to have its cake and eat it too.” It wants to give a stern lesson about how deeply out of touch shipping is, but also feeding shipping the whole time? And ends up…kind of damning itself along the way because we never actually really meet Kim…and he's dead at the end…and so all he is is what everyone else has projected onto him.

Nini

This show, for like maybe 6 or 7 episodes, tiptoes up to several points. It almost makes a series of points as Ben mentioned about shipping, about the experience of fandom, about who we think fans are and who they might actually be. It almost makes a point about how many queer women are in fandom and women discovering their queerness through fandom. It almost makes a point about about transgender people and the idea that the way that we present to the world maybe not being who we are inside. It tiptoes up to all of these points, and in the end touches none of them. The front half of this is intensely frustrating, and then the back half is just actively offensive. It just— I can't even— [laughs] Actively offensive!

The shift happens when we realize that there is this weird, ugly fake relationship—that is fake on one side but very real on the other—happening between Kim and one of the teachers. That's when this show really started going off the rails for me—the whole thing with Kim and the teacher is when I started feeling deeply uncomfortable. I started feeling gross. I didn't understand why this is the way that the show was going, what they were trying to say with this storyline. I still don't know at the end of the show what they're trying to say with that storyline other than I guess they're trying to tell you that the actual Kim was not a good person. But then why have him be essentially the victim of a predator?

Ben

It's really hard for us to give you guys the necessary context for some of these things. The simple overview is when Pan accidentally finds herself in Kim's body, she learns along the way that instead of being like the star academic student, he's actually an academic cheater, that he's involved in a secret relationship with one of the stern teachers, and he uses that relationship to get answers to the tests. This upsets Pan because her image of Kim as a star student and badass is ruined.

Eventually, she learns that the reason why Kim was manipulating this teacher and involved in this relationship with her to get these tests was because he was helping Way study so that Way could get out of an abusive situation in his house with his dad by succeeding at school properly, because Way gets into fights too much. We don't really return to the whole thing there because all we get is…a teacher with very…juvenile-centric kinks projecting them on to a star student. It just left both of us, when we watched it, feeling super weird about it.

And it doesn't really go anywhere. They're just like—at the end she's like moved on to an age-appropriate man now, I guess? Like, good for her? I guess Kim's death was the necessary catalyst for her to stop trying to hook up with one of her students.

Nini

It's so gross and it's the pivot after which most of what happens feels gross to me, and there are a hundred different things that they're trying to do—none of them lands. It feels like the show wants to have its cake and eat it, too, in a lot of ways.

I haven't even started to get into what they did with the character of Soda. Soda is Pan's best friend who she writes the fic with, who is her ride-or-die. The implication of the show is that Soda and Pan are kind of in love with each other, particularly that Soda is in love with Pan. But that again goes nowhere—in the end, they randomly put both Pan and Soda with boys?

Ben

A lot of things just don't make any damn sense in this show. It's frustrating because the show comes close constantly to a good point like it almost makes the point that shippers know nothing about the people that they're shipping…but then it never really gives us like an interior understanding of who Kim actually was. We only know him through what everybody else is getting out of knowing him. That's almost an interesting point but the big problem I feel with the show is that I feel like this show is the most intellectually disturbing and manipulative show that we've ever experienced. I don't think the show ever really lands on a real feeling it wants to go for and so you're kind of left floundering.

I really…don't…like this particular project, and it's really frustrating because there's a lot of people I really liked in it. Individual pieces of the show on their own could be some really cool moments. Like I think Fluke plays a kind of himbo-badass-type-jock character really well. Like he plays Way super well as a guy who is not the greatest at school, doesn't really have like a refined understanding of human connection; but knows who's important to him, and knows who he wants to be with, and knows not to mislead other people along the way.

And it's really frustrating to see a gay character like Way be constantly emotionally abused by this narrative. The frustration that arises from me as I watch this, particularly whereas it pertains to Way, is he already knows that he has feelings for Kim, and over the course of interacting with Pan, because Pan in some ways softens Kim because she's less standoffish than he is, Way decides to confess his feelings to Kim. And this pissed me off in episode 9 because I've been a gay boy confessing from the closet to someone before. It is the most terrifying thing that has ever happened to me in my life, and I was so disgusted with this show because they gave one of the most intense things that you can do as a gay man with another boy to a fucking shipper who never really respected who they were as people.

I hate that with all of the fires that burn in my soul, and it never really gets better from there.

Nini

Let me give you an example of a direction that the show was going in that it then undercut.

So, one of the actual good story arcs in the show. At the beginning of the show, Way is in a relationship with View’s character Pingping. Pingping is the school's queen bee and she is out here like putting out this…general idea that she and Way are in this hot and heavy thing. Meanwhile, Way has never really touched her. They spend all their time together staring at their phones and occasionally talking to each other. You can see where there is some affection there between them but Way quickly—I guess for the narrative—realizes how he feels about Kim, and he's very open immediately about talking to Pingping about it and being like, “Look, I am in love with somebody else.” And the way that Pingping handles that is also very real. She doesn't want to hear it. She avoids it. There's a lot of interesting stuff there. All that's great.

And then, they undercut it by having Pingping, like, put a hit out on Kim. It's insane.

Ben

That is actually what happens. Like, the most frustrating thing to talk about with this show is that everything we're describing happened as we're describing it. The problem with The Shipper is while it's very easy to talk about the actions that transpired over the show and the expressed-by-the-character reason for why they're doing what they're doing, the thematic implications of everything they're doing is actually incredibly disturbing.

Like, one of the big things we talk about in fandom sometimes is that projecting homosexuality onto boys is the way a lot of girls figure out their own queerness with themselves, and the show walks right up to this line by highlighting the romantic potential between Pan and her friend Soda, who spend way too much of their free time and their class time writing sexy fic about two boys like a year or two older than them, and then throws that idea away as if it were preposterous.

That is…so offensive, and it's weird in a show that features young gay love in it about girls who are obsessed with young gay love to do something that felt Incredibly homophobic—in this case, specifically lesbophobic.

Nini

The show in general feels homophobic and lesbophobic because in the end, the only romantic relationship that actually gets to happen is the one between Pan and Khet, who is Kim's brother. So of everything else, basically Way falls in love with Kim and Kim dies, they tease Pan and Soda but it doesn't happen and they both end up with boys. It feels like it wanted to be clever and out-clevered itself, so to speak, to the point that it just got real stupid.

Ben

You look at The Shipper and you can see the points that it's hinting at but it's almost like it's afraid to make the point because they're worried that the audience that they're hoping funds this project doesn't turn on them by realizing that they're being maybe chided for how they behave, and it ends up becoming a show fundamentally about nothing, that ends on an insane level of queer trauma that it somehow writes off as useful because it helped a straight girl figure out that she should maybe fuck her best friend who's hung around her writing sexy fic about his brother, but she didn't know it was his brother for the last year or two? But also she's now projecting her intense shipping desires onto Gun and Off who randomly show up in the final six minutes?

…I deserved better than this.

Nini

Let's just talk about the absolute—I mean, it sounds so weird to say that this is the absolute wildest moment of the show. I mean, if we went through all the wild moments of the show it's probably not the absolute wildest, but it's the one that felt probably the wildest and most offensive in the end and that was The Kiss.

Ben

Fuck. Here we go.

Nini

At the end, Pan is now trying to get back into her body after a series of UNO reverses in the last two episodes that just were exhausting and upsetting. Now Pan is trying to get back into her body before it dies, and the way that she gets back into her body is supposed to be a true love kiss. Pan is still in First’s body at this point in time, and then they decide that the true love must be Kim's brother Khet.

It's two boys kissing but it's somehow still homophobic! [laughs] It's so—oh my God.

So, Pan's got to have a true love's kiss. So, Pan calls Soda while she's running to tell Khet that if he likes her he should come and kiss her in the form of his brother's body—which he does! I'm telling you, guys…what I'm saying is exactly what happened.

Ben

I just hate the show for having Ohm and First kiss, having it be one of the weakest kisses either of these boys has ever given, and then immediately cutting to a funeral afterwards. Because First’s character died.

Nini

Technically, First’s character died at the beginning of the show, and we only get to dealing with that at the end of the show. And in between, we just get a bunch of stuff…

I mean we haven't even got into the family drama, because aside from everything else that's happening, Kim and Khet live alone while their parents are in another country, and it seems like Kim and Khet kind of hate each other. And so there's a whole family drama happening with Pan in Kim's body where Khet is coming to peace of some kind with his relationship with his brother and then has to also deal with the fact that actually his brother is dead, and then has to shepherd his parents through that. So there's that.

And then we randomly find out somewhere in the middle of the show that Pan is actually growing up being raised by her stepfather because her mom died? And her stepfather is constantly being encouraged by the people around him to ditch her because he doesn't have any responsibility to her, but she thinks of him as her dad.

Again all, on paper, compelling stuff. But the way that it's dealt with in the show, it just, it all feels like a bridge too far.

Ben

The show wants you to think about a lot of really interesting ideas and such, but it doesn't want to come forward and say them itself. Like it's always tiptoeing up to something and then peeking in the room, and then walking away from it. It's one of the most frustrating experiences I've had as a viewer in a really long time. The show feels intellectually dishonest.

Nini

That's probably the best way to describe it. This show has roughly 800 convictions and the courage of none of them. It feels so dishonest intellectually. It feels…offensive. It feels…rude.

Ben

I was so angry at the end of episode 9 in a way I have not felt since the final episodes of HIStory3: Make Our Days Count. I don't like moments that should be joyous for queer people being snatched from them to make some sort of cute point in a narrative to seem somehow better than the audience? And it really really pissed me off.

In this particular instance, it's when Way confesses his feelings to Kim and Pan goes into what she knows is going to be a confession believing this is somehow for her—which is deluded. And then she gets upset during the confession that the confession to the boy whose body she's in is being given to the boy whose body she's in and not to her, the shipper, after earlier chiding the girl she should be developing a lesbian romance with for deciding to project that onto the boy whose body she's in because she misunderstands their dynamic as Kim actually flirting with her. And I was enraged by this show taking a gay moment from a gay boy, and then also running away from a lesbian moment and having the character just be completely out of touch about it—which I guess is maybe the point about shippers, but not the point the show really wants to land on.

And its final messaging in the last like ten-odd minutes is so deeply disturbing that I have not recovered. So, as we've described here today, Kim and Way are the boys that these girls were projecting all the shipping nonsense onto. We learned that these boys are actually involved in a fairly interesting and complicated gay love story that I actually think would have made for a really compelling story on its own—but I digress—and then…Kim is dead. And so we have to process that particular fact, and these girls believe that the best way they can honor the two boys who they never understood is to keep writing deluded fic about them! And I have not been this disgusted in a really long time.

Nini

And it's presented as valedictory somehow.

Ben

Right? Like they have Way cry, like, weird tears of thanks—I don't know what the hell happened here, and maybe because we can reflect on this now three—three to four years later—maybe this is why they put Aof in charge of all the queer shit after this because this…was a bridge way too fucking far.

Nini

At one point toward the end of our watch I remember just saying out loud “I fucking hate this” to Ben, and I think I kept that mantra up—varying versions of “I fucking hate this” and “I'm so pissed” for probably the last entire episode and a half of this show.

Before that we were making jokes about psychic damage and eldritch horror. More and more jokes as the show went on, because we were absolutely taking psychic damage watching the show. The show was an eldritch horror. I just did not realize how much of an eldritch fucking horror that it was.

Gah, listen. It's over. We've learned our lesson. We're never doing something like this again.

Ben

We have no promises to you all about other things we want to catch up on right now, because goddamn do we need a break. If we skipped it, we were correct! And we will not be second guessing ourselves ever again!

Nini

I think that's going to be the rule: if there is something that we both skipped it was for a reason and we should never watch it. Like it's one thing for us to, like, individually like something and recommend it to each other, but I think if there's something that we both skipped, I think that's the new catch up rule. If we both skipped it, it's staying skipped.

Ben

So it is written, so it shall be.

I don't really have a lot of positive things to say. Like, I think the set design was cool, I think the production design was fine. I think overall the performances are strong. The GMMTV talent is consistently solid at the level we expect of them. I don't think anyone else at GMMTV—at the time at least—could have done what First was asked to do in this character, or characters, he's playing, technically, two.

Nini

This is purely a writing fail. There's nothing else that I can point to that is wrong here. This is a hundred percent writing fail.

Ben

So, The Shipper was bad and wrong and offensive and evil. We will not be taking further questions about this show. We have said all that I want to say about this show, and I will not be referring to it going forward. We all deserved better than this.

Nini

I know there are those of you out there who love it. I'm sorry. I'm not one of you, and I am not willing to discuss it at all.

Ben

I've said my piece and counted to three.

Nini

Amen, and hallelu. Moving on.

59:46 - Next Watches

Nini

So what are we going to catch up on in the summer and talk about in the fall?

Well…for me, I will finally be getting past my weird reaction to the uncanny valley effect that I get from watching the face smoothing filters on the show and I am going to watch Light On Me.

Ben

Good.

Nini

Ben has been recommending this to me. He recently rewatched it and says that it holds up. Everybody loves this show. I've always intended to watch it but I could not get past the skin smoothing filter. It makes everybody look like a weird robot. It's just unsettling. I am going to fight through my horror of it to actually watch the show.

[both laugh]

Ben

Jesus Christ.

Nini

And I'm gonna talk about it when we [laughs] when we come down to the fall, so look out for that discussion in October. Ben, what are you gonna watch over the summer?

Ben

[sighs] So, one of our recent pickups—who's been a delight—has watched so many things that I've recommended that I gave her a coupon, which she cashed in on Coffee Prince, which I am currently watching. And Nini has also convinced me to watch Mama Gogo.

I originally skipped Mama Gogo because I had watched Friendzone, and I had watched Friendzone 2: Dangerous Area, and I just wasn't in the mood for Jojo doing big cast, obnoxious, soap-opera-level drama, and so I just skipped Mama Gogo at the time. We're about to watch Only Friends in probably the next one to three months maybe. I will watch Mama Gogo in preparation for more of Jojo's oeuvre, and then I guess we'll talk about both of those.

Nini

I think you're gonna enjoy Mama Gogo. It's not gay, but it feels gay?

Ben

I have watched Jojo's work. I know what you're talking about.

[both laugh]

Nini

I think you're gonna have a good time with it.

So, that's what we're gonna be catching up on over the summer and talking about in our Catch Up Corner in October. So, look out for that.

1:02:33 - Me, My Husband, and My Husband’s Boyfriend

Nini

So in keeping with our mission to watch things that are queer-adjacent, queer-ish, as well as queer things, Ben and I both watched over this spring Watashi to Otto to Otto no Kareshi—Me, My Husband, and My Husband’s Boyfriend.

Ben, what is this about?

Ben

A mess! Me, My Husband, and My Husband’s Boyfriend is about a Japanese high school teacher who is sexually unfulfilled in her five-year marriage despite having an otherwise devoted and caring partner, who then discovers that her husband—on their anniversary— is making out with some guy right outside their door. In the process of trying to cope with this and deal with this, they end up attempting to form a poly triad with this guy, who her husband is seeing, who turns out to be her high school student who is an adult now. He also had feelings for her, and so they end up in this complicated situation where everyone's trying to take care of everyone. It's a little bit of a hot mess, and the show ends up asking for people to interrogate what their own relationships mean for them, though it ends on a somewhat ambiguous note for our trio.

There's a lot to unpack along the way there, but the broad strokes is a teacher finds out that her husband is cheating on her with a man, and she decides that they're going to try and make this trio work. Complications ensue.

Nini

‘Complications ensue’ is putting it mildly. I feel muddled about the show, but the show is also pretty muddled, I think. It feels like they were trying to do something. I'm not sure it got all the way there—

Ben

It did for me!

[both laugh]

Nini

Maybe it did for the audience that they were aiming it towards, which is obviously their local audience in Japan—

Ben

And sad, gay artsy boys like me!

Nini

I'm really curious as to how this was received inside of Japan. Japan's been doing these shows where they try to marry the individual instincts that are related to identity and specifically queer and queer-adjacent, I guess, identities. They're trying to marry that to the collectivist culture. So they're trying to put these shows in front of people like “This is maybe seem a little bit strange to you, but look at how happy everybody is. Isn't it most important that people are happy?”

And, this one, I think from what I got from it, It seems like it didn't know exactly what it wanted to say about polyamory. There's a polyamorous character, who is Shuhei, who is the…husband's boyfriend, who is also in love with the wife. But the other characters aren't poly but they're still trying to make a poly relationship work.

It's so much! They're trying to stuff so much into this show, and I'm not sure that it entirely works for me. Ben has other ideas.

Ben

They're not poly to start, but no one is really except for characters like Shuhei, and I think that's why I like it. The big thing about being queer is you have to decide what relationships are going to be for yourself. You have to figure out what friendship, romance, and intimacy are going to be for you one person at a time. The etiquette rules of cis-heteronormativity do not apply to you, and so what works for me in this is most of the people who walked into this story were not poly but they did care about the people involved.

Was being a poly triad the right solution for them? Absolutely not, but at the core you have two people trying to juggle a complicated sense of duty to each other, while also wanting different things from each other and maybe other people, and having to reconcile what all of those things are going to be for each other because they also wanted to honor the vows and choices they made to commit to each other under the previous structures before they got into this.

So, no, Yuki and Misaki are not poly really in going into this, but opening themselves up to the idea that the way they understand love might not be concrete enables them to find something that puts them maybe on the path to actually being comfortable and cared for, and properly caring to the people that they value.

Nini

I would rock with that except for one very important thing. Yes, they're still working it out at the end. The show does end ambiguously, but the overwhelming feeling I get at the end is not a feeling of hope, it's not a feeling that they are going to work it out—that they're working through it and they're going to get to the place, because I still don't feel like they are being honest with themselves entirely about what they want.

For example, Misaki, she wants sex and what she ends up with in the poly relationship, and even in sort of a wider polycule that she’s decided that she's putting together, none of it nets her the sex that she wants. But she has talked herself into it as being right for her, while it still doesn't give her what she wants.

And I think it's very similar to Yuki. Yuki wants to be in a gay relationship. He wants to be in a gay monogamous relationship, and the polycule doesn't give him that either. So it feels like they're not even working towards the things that they want. That they've decided on this as a solution, but it doesn't actually solve anything for them.

Ben

So the reason why it doesn't bother me at the end is I don't need the confirmation. They want you to think about it. It's not about whether or not this polycule works. It's a question of, “Have your thoughts about polyamory changed from spending five hours with these characters?” And so the ambiguity at the end is totally fine for me because you're allowed to project what you hope for onto them, and the question is whether or not you can reconcile what version of their lives looks like. It's the thinking about it that's important for them.

I totally see…your kind of hopeless read on the situation, but it doesn't bother me because they lean into ambiguity at the end. And so you're allowed to project onto it what you maybe want for yourself, or for those characters. Like, I do agree with you that Misaki wants sex, and they don't confirm her getting sex onscreen, but they confirm her taking charge of her life which to me is at the core of her lack of sex.

Nini

It's not even for me that they don't show her getting sex on screen. It's not like that. It's more about her mindset about it. Instead of that remaining part of her mindset: the fact that she wants sex. By the end she's completely put that thought aside it feels like.

Ben

I think it's implied that her desire for sex is also tied up in her notions of the kind of family they're supposed to have.

Nini

I'm not sure I agree with you there because it's one thing to feel like you should be having sex, and another thing to want sex, and I feel like Misaki wants sex. There is an argument to be made there about doing the things that you're expected to do and not doing the things that you're expected to do. Like, I fully see where the show is going with that with the character of the other teacher—I think it's Misumi—the fact that Misaki is not doing what Misumi thinks that she should do. So Misumi inserts herself into the situation and causes a problem.

She's trying to fix it because she thinks that Misaki is too weak or too something to do the things that she should be doing, when it's really that Misaki doesn't agree that that's necessarily what she should be doing. I get that part. I'm down with what they're trying to do there, but I didn't get the sense that she wanted to have sex because she thought it's something that she should do. It felt like it was something that she herself wanted and she wasn't getting.

Maybe I'm getting too involved in the sex of it. Maybe that wasn't the intention.

Ben

They leave who she inevitably chooses…to bang it out with ambiguous and up to the audience, Because for them to confirm in any sort of way I think would lead to too narrow a read on polyamory itself.

Nini

So the idea that they're trying to get across is that this is not about sex. Polyamory is not a sex thing.

Ben

Correct.

Nini

I can accept that take, in terms of what they're trying to put in front of their audience.

Ben

Both of them want sex. Like Yuki wants sex, too, when it comes to Shuhei, but like he's unsatisfied because he can't enjoy it openly the way he realizes he wants to and needs to. And so much of this is about them all having to let go of their preconceptions about what their lives should look like. And so, like, the final scene of the three of them, like, seeking each other out at night, and then just being happy to see each other, works for me because it feels like they see each other, and that's enough for me. Like, I don't have to understand it to get that, whatever they found, it works for them.

That's how I feel about every polycule I've ever met. I don't always get it, but everybody involved seems all right. Their relationship is not about me. If they say they're happy, I just accept that and move along.

Nini

I'll take that away and think about that, but my overall feel of the show is that it definitely had ideas that it wanted to get across. It had an audience that it was talking to. I think that maybe I wasn't the audience, and that is part of my ambivalent feelings about the show. So, for me, it lands on ‘good,’ obviously has a point of view, obviously has a story it wants to tell. But it's not for me, and that's fine.

Ben

I gave this a 9 because I really engaged with all the ideas the whole way through, and I was really gripped by the whole of it. I liked how so much of it ends up being about Misaki having to defend her family from herself, from her co-worker, and I like that she's consistently fighting for the boys specifically, and that she cares about them.

Nini

Ben gives it a 9. I, on quality, give it a 9 and a half.

Ben

Oooh, look at you.

Nini

Like I said, it is a good, objectively good, show. I'm just not the audience for it.

1:15:53 - Spring Roundup

Ben

And we're back!

Now that we’ve finished catching up on all of the shows—good and bad—it's finally finally time for the Spring Roundup. This week we have our first guest on The Conversation. We have brought my best friend, David onto The Conversation. David, say hello to the people.

David

Hey, y'all!

Ben

Okay. [David laughs]

Nini

Hi, David! I'm so excited to have you with us!

David

I am, too!

Nini

I remember saying to Ben, like, probably around the time the first voice note hit the chat, like, ‘David has to come on the show.’ So, I am very glad that we were able to make it work.

David

I love that. He was telling me that people wanted to hear me, and I'm like, “Look, there are too many people who tell me to shut up. I love this!” [David and Nini laugh]

Nini

That will never be a problem over on this side.

David

“David talking again.”

Nini

Never shut up, I beg you. [chuckles]

1:16:40 - David Introduction and BL Background

Alright, alright. So, David, tell us about you. Tell us about how you even got into BL. Tell us a little bit about the David story.

David

Um, hoo! I'll say, so I'll start from the BL angle. I got into BL because of Ben. I don't know if he's ever told anyone this story, but me and Ben have two very different takes on Love of Siam. He is not to bring it up in my presence. I feel tricked and deceived. But because of Love of Siam, I didn't even realize that BL was a category, and Ben tried to initially get me into it, but I got really sick for a while. And I wasn't watching with him, and then I started getting over it and the first BL that like fell into my lap because I found it on YouTube was Until We Meet Again.

And then it was a rabbit hole. I like finished that BL in like I think one sitting.

Ben

Which is insane.

David

And I think in that sitting I was texting Ben like, “Oh hell no!” [laughs] And then immediately went and watched another whole show back to back and that was Love by Chance.

Nini

Interesting!

David

Finished that the next night. [Nini laughs] Yeah, girl, I know. I know.

Ben

It was super annoying having David texting me about old shows because like we're neck deep in like 2021 content. [David laughs] Like that was a busy year. There was a week at one point we had 16 shows to watch and David’s like, “So this show in 2018: I really want to talk about it.”

David

I was also watching all the current stuff.

Ben

Yeah, that was a lot.

David

I was, I think at least six, seven hours a day. For a while it was all BL.

Ben

According to David's MDL, he's basically current on all of the BL

David

Yeah. There's maybe like four or five recent ones that I haven't watched, and two of those I was directly told by someone ‘you are not missing anything.’

1:18:50 - David’s History with Queer Cinema

Ben

Here's an interesting question because you and I have been in the guts of queer cinema a long time. Prior to BL, what are some of your favorite gay movies that you remember?

David

Now, of course he knows this is loaded because I'm always gonna say Big Eden.

Ben

It’s so good.

David

One, it like touches my heart. When I'm depressed I watch Big Eden. It's one of the few times where I've been upset at the main queer character almost the entire movie. Henry has issues. But Big Eden is a beautiful movie, and then maybe after that Beautiful Thing, To Wong Foo, Priscilla Queen of the Desert, Bound, Like Water for Chocolate—another lesbian classic.

Ben

To elaborate on The Love of Siam conversation, we watched Love Siam, and David and I were both deeply repulsed by what happened there. But we contextualized it in different ways. David was furious and was like, “I never want to discuss this film ever again,” and so David was not exactly primed for BL because he was so ambivalent about Thailand.

The big Thai gay things we watched between 2012 and 2017ish…

David

Oh, Jesus Christ.

Ben

…were Love of Siam, Bangkok Love Story—a horrible film.

David

Horrible fucking film.

Ben

The Blue Hour—a good film but really unsettling—and How to Win at Checkers (Every Time).

David

Lord Jesus.

Ben

So.

David

Like Thailand routinely came for my throat and I had done nothing to it. Thailand routinely showed up at my front door with these movies like, “Come outside. We ain't gonna jump you,” and inevitably I would open the door and get jumped, and I never learned my lessons. So—

Ben

[laughs] It would always be me leading them. I’m like hey I got this film!

David

Yeah! It’s Ben. It's Ben. Yeah, no, it wasn't Thai. It was Ben sitting outside with the movies. “Come outside. You won't get jumped.” You said that last time. “Girl, come on, stop talking about old shit.”

[Nini laughs]

Ben

I like the queer angst films. David does not.

1:20:59 - David’s Favorite BL Actors

Ben

So back to BL! For funsies: How about you tell the people of the podcast who some of your favorite boys are.

David

Ohm and Fluke.

Ben

She is a My Blue girlie.

David

Uh, I really am. [whispers] Earth Pirapat. I love him.

Nini

Why did you whisper it like that?

David

If you hear this, Earth, my one true love. [Nini laughs] My current husband, I love him. He is a placeholder for you. I just want you to know [Nini laughs harder] he can be gone tomorrow, bae. Like it ain’t nothing. Earth, what do you need? Like, I got you. What do you need, Daddy? You need a boat?

Nini

I heard the F at the end of Earth right there and I was like I feel you. I completely understand where you're coming from this moment—not my particular ministry but I feel you.

David

Yeah, thank you, thank you. I had to constantly deal with Ben's malcontent, so thank you for acknowledging…

Ben

I will back up David's Earth girlie bona fides. David has not seen Water Boyy because I refused to let David suffer that loss, but David saw Earth for all of two minutes in Love By Chance and he's calling me “Who is this man! I need to know who this man is immediately!”

David

I—he came on the screen. I was like “and that's it, yep, right there!”

Nini

You were officially sprung.

David

Right there! [gross David mouth noises] Yes.

Nini

Oh my God. [laughs]

David

Yeah, Earth. Earth. That's all I gotta say, Earth. That man—whew—Lord.

Ben

David has an appreciation for what he calls ‘the Big Talls’ and—

David

Yeah, I love the Big Talls.

Nini

Fair. You know how I feel about a Big Tall.

Ben

You and Nini can hang out together talking about Man Trisanu—

David

Man! Oof, girl! Not Man! Oh my…girl!

Nini

‘Man.’ Is. Correct.

David

Never has a name so encapsulated a being.

Nini

‘Man’ and ‘tree’ in the same place.

David

Girl. Man. Tree. Mountain. Stud. I mean, look, look, look, Man. Man did the job that he was sent here to do. God Bless him. May Buddha protect him. Like yass. [Nini laughs]

1:23:24 - David’s Thoughts on the Spring Shows

Nini

Okay, so we've got the shows we've got the boys. Let's dive into the season. Talk to me about how you felt about this spring—all the shows we've been watching over the last few months

David

So, I think I've said this to Ben before. I felt that this season was probably the one of the most extremes. Like there were a few things that were...hmm...misses, kind of, but for the most part we had…duds and bangers. And the bangers made the duds and the misses that much worse.

We had [The] Eighth Sense, Bed Friend, Our Dining Table, Jack o’ Frost, and everything else was okay, but those are all 10s and they were bangers, and it just made everything—

Ben

How dare you forget La Pluie? I will beat you.

David

Oh I'm, I'm so sorry, please forgive me sir. [Ben laughs] You're right. I—I'm so sorry, sir. La Pluie. He's right. That was wrong. I do deserve the slapdown that I just received.

Ben

Sat in my house—for 11 of 12 episodes.

David

In his house—played in his face y'all. Played in this man’s face. In his face like he didn’t know who it was. I’m sorry. La Pluie.

[Nini laughs]

There were a lot of good ones and I think that's why there were so many, many more bad ones. In particular, the most glaring combination is the shows that were basically the same show but one was clearly better.

Step by Step, [A] Boss and a Babe. Look, A Boss and a Babe, I get what they were trying to do but the whole show was a massive misstep, and it was so much more obvious because right after A Boss and a Babe we got Step by Step—which fumbled maybe a couple of times—it fumbled a little—but it stuck the fucking landing.

Ben

Hmm...

David

I think—oh here—

Nini

Ben is gonna fight you, but David I am on your side!

David

I heard the 'mmm'. She has talked to me about this before. I actually completely agree with what I know she's gonna say, but I still think they stuck the landing in a way that everyone else fumbled and fell on their fucking face.

Ben

Hmm...

Nini

David, you me. You can't see me now but we are shaking hands! We are shaking hands.

David

We are I—I concur. Thank you.

Ben

I’m gonna have a little sip while y’all—

[David and Nini laugh]

1:26:15 - Somewhat Forgettable Shows

Ben

So you mentioned a bunch of shows that really stood out for you. Like, looking over your list, like you already mentioned like Our Dating Sim, Our Dining Table, Step by Step, La Pluie, Bed Friend…looking at the rest of the stuff: What did you genuinely enjoy, but you feel like you have to look at your list to remember that show.

David

Oh, that's a good one. I really enjoy but I have to look at the list to remember it…Our Dating Sim. I liked it but it would never be in the forefront of my mind. But if you bought it up and I saw it in front of it like “I like that.” I felt during this show—I was like ‘oh this is cute.’

That's a really good question. Like you liked it but you need to like, be reminded of it. And that would be, yeah…Our Dating Sim, Jack o’ Frost. God bless it, I want to say Naked Dining but Lord Jesus Christ…

[Ben laughs]

They tr–girl, they’re my top nominee for “Y'all tried it”

[Ben and Nini laugh]

Ben

David has declared a new entrant into Girl, You Tried.

Nini

I'm putting it in the notes. What about you, Ben? What's the one or two that you liked but to actually remember you gotta look at the list?

Ben

It's probably…Unintentional Love Story and…Love Mate. These are both shows that I think I gave 9s to, and I would earnestly recommend, but I don't think I would independently bring them up in conversation as like BL Essentials that I really want someone else to watch.

David

I agree with those, particularly Love Mate. Like, I would put Love Tractor on that list.

Nini

I watched Love Mate and Love Tractor after the fact. Which, by the way, the Koreans have got to get better at naming these shows.

Ben

Love Tractor is a good one, too! Like, Love Tractor was actually good—

David

Love Tractor was good.

Ben

It feels like they missed it.

David

There was a point where they could have done some stuff faster, and had these boys sucking face quicker—I'm gonna let it be what it was…It was cute, but like I said, it's on that list for me. I liked it but it never comes to the forefront of my mind.

Nini

I feel like that's fair for both Love Mate and Love Tractor.

What else did we watch that I have to remind myself that we watched?

Ben

There were quite a few flops we did not even acknowledge the season. [laughs]

Nini

We're not even talking about the flops—

Ben

David's going on on a face journey right now.

David

Like, my whole, [sighs] There were so many… 've seen fish dumped on the bottom of a boat that flopped less than some—

Nini

Oh my God—

David

Fish gasping for air trying to get back into the sea! “Release me, old man, and I shall grant you three wishes!” Some of this stuff was flippity floppity floopin’ all over the place.

Ben

As I remind David about the trenches that I fought through for eight years of BL.

David

Here he goes…

Nini

“Oh, all my life I had to fight.”

David

Had to fight David. I had to fight Viki. I had to fight iQIYI—

David

I love BL.

Nini

Had to fight WeTV!

David

Lord knows I do!

Ben

I did have to fight WeTV, though, shit.

[everyone laughs]

1:29:25 - Favorite Actor Pairs

Ben

Before we get into some of the cerebral questions about this season, I have one more sort of half-fun question to sort of ease us there. Of the programs that you enjoyed, which actor pairs did you enjoy working together the most—just in the work—not with all of the fan shit around it?

David

Bed Friend.

Ben

What about Net and James really stuck out for you?

David

The material they were handling, because we can talk about all the high heat stuff—whatever— they were great. Rarely has two people had that kind of sexual chemistry, but the—trigger warning—the sexual assault thing, and how at some point you realize even though he has not told him what happened to him, he knows. And how he is respecting his boundaries and that's coming into the story and they're talking about—without talking about how someone deals with that trauma for the rest of their life. And how it can't help but inform every decision you make, and how you respond to things.

And I do not think that any other pair could have pulled that off in the same way that Net and James did. As a matter of fact, if you had asked me if I thought they could do it, I probably would have said no.

Ben

Judging on their previous work I would not expect—

David

—on their previous work, but they were both…fantastic.

Ben

What about you, Nini?

Nini

My couple of the season? It's gotta be Man and Ben.

David

I'm not even mad.

Nini

I think Man and Ben did a really good job with Step by Step.

David

I’m not even mad…even though that boy has the ugliest crying face—God bless him—Ben, I love Ben to death, but like his crying face makes me so angry.

[Ben laughs]

I'm like please teach this child how to cry without scrunching up his mouth like that. I love him, though.

And how tall is Man? 6’9” or something?

Ben

I don't know. It's a lot though.

Nini

Man was on point. Everything he put on screen was on point, and Ben just followed along I think. I think they did really well.

David

I would like to say, too: I don't think we've ever seen…a pursuer really be…emotional. Like if you think about it, how many times have we seen “the guy” going after the person really have a breakdown and cry. There might be some tears. They're upset. They're throwing stuff, but he broke down.

Nini

He was crying in his baby brother's lap.

David

His brother. He was like ‘what the fuck am I supposed to do?’ And he delivered that! It was completely believable. Like I watched that scene five times. He just loses it. It was completely believable. He was amazing, and I was just like ‘How dare you hurt my redwood?’

Nini

The thing that struck me about that scene was that Man couldn't actually produce tears but somehow—that scene—is, like, he is bawling. There are no tears and I'm still feeling everything that he's feeling because just the sound of his voice—everything.

David

It was working and this motherfucker couldn't cry! I was like how dare you!

Ben

My couple of this season is Title and Pee from La Pluie.

Nini

I knew you were going there.

Ben

Girl, you knew what this was. We did not simp hard enough for Title during the La Pluie discussion.

[David laughs]

That boy is beautiful! He has an incredible smile. Like, they're like ‘I think Tai likes this boy too’ and I'm like ‘that's just Title. He just gives everybody the eye every time he looks at them. He breaks people. It's The Eyes of Kid Midas shit going on here.’

David

You know you can't be looking at everybody like that because even I was like he's a whore.

[Ben laughs]

You don't look at everybody like that.

Nini

Did I not say that Tai is an alley cat like from jump.

David

And you were right. You were a prophet. You led the march because he's a whore.

Ben

And he bit that man.

David

And then he bit him.

Nini

No, okay, sorry. We just did not ventilate this enough because I just, like, uploaded the Adult Swim episode today, which means I just listened to it again and I'm sorry we didn't talk enough about how Tai bit that man. We just didn't.

David

He bit a grown man…and then had the nerve to get mad because the man got mad ‘cause you bit him. Do we remember what he said after that? ‘You made me.’ Sir! That is inappropriate in every way shape and form that matters! You can't just be biting people.

Do I want to sometimes walk around and bite people? Yes, because, listeners, some people just deserve to get bit. We all know it, we all secretly think it. Like, don't play. Don't play. Lie to God, don't lie to me. Read your scripture. It's above me.

All I'm saying…What was I saying? He's a whore. That's what I'm saying.

[Ben laughs]

I lost the thread at some point.

Ben

They don't have easy characters to portray. Title has to be a likable enough protagonist for people to project onto him before they recognize that he's been in the wrong the entire time. And then he has to be wrong in a way that also makes you want to root for him to get better. And that's super difficult—

David

Oh…I didn’t think about it like that.

Ben

And Pee has a difficult character because he has to be all of these things without people asking any questions about his biography. Like, he has to be a perfect romantic interest but not in a way that's distracting. Pee has to portray Patts in such a way that we identify him as the ideal partner that Saengtai has been looking for this whole time, but we need to not ask any questions about him, like where does his money come from, what's the deal with his people, what does he care about outside of Saengtai and taking care of these animals and his friends

And he encompasses Patts in such a way that he feels like a complete person. Who has turned his interest towards Saengtai in a way that doesn't demand the audience ask any goddamn questions about him. Like, for all the debating about Patts this whole season, nobody stopped to ask a damn question about how does this man's life even function, which I think is also great. Because it means everybody was caught up in Saengtai's bullshit the whole time.

They give such legible performances over the course of the show. There's never a moment where you're confused about what Saengtai or Patts is feeling and why they're feeling it.

Ben

So we talked about the actors. We loved Net and James this season. We loved Man and Ben. We loved Title and Pee. Who else stood out this season?

Nini

Iijima and Inukai.

Ben

Also Suzuki Kosuke and Honda Kyoya. The Japanese BLs we gave 10s to? Stellar performances. Nobody has looked like such a sap more than Iijima in a long time and that was so lovely to watch.

1:36:49 - The Changing Nature of BLs

Ben

Let's get into the cerebral. We talked a little bit in the… Adult Swim episode about how intellectually demanding this season felt.

David, since you've been in a rapid catch up with BL for the last two years…We talked about how emotional the winter felt with Moonlight Chicken, Utsukushii Kare 2, The Warp Effect, My School President, Never Let Me Go—

David

Back to back to back to back bangers. I don't even know if we've had a season where there were that many back to back to back bangers.

Ben

Airing concurrently? No, that was a first. However, this particular season as you said, there were really good shows and not so great shows. How do you feel about how much the shows of this particular season required us to lean in, and pay attention to them, and talk about them, and acknowledge what was being said?

David

I think the medium is evolving. I think we're having to lean in more because some shows want us to. They're clearly writing this. They're clearly directing this. They're clearly leading us somewhere where we want you to think about this. It's not all cutesy. And I think that is a maturing of the genre itself.

Ben

Nini, you have any thoughts about the…cerebral nature of this season you want to get out for the lagniappe?

Nini

I talked a little bit about this in the Adult Swim episode, but my brain? She be tired. My brain be so tired like to the point where, over the summer, I'm just watching trash, lighthearted fluff, and one or two things that are making me think a little bit more, but mostly just—yeah—I don't want to think for the next little bit.

David

Trash is where it's at, yup.

Nini

I'm a Thailand girlie. I go up for the Thai shows most of the time, and every big name in Thailand gave me something to look at, more or less, this season and it was all like…if not the best, it was instructive. It was interesting. It made me think. So, I generally had a good time, but she tired.

Ben

I almost want to say this is where the genre peaks for me. Like I've been wondering what the peak of BL was going to look like for a while. There was a lot of really heavy stuff this season about what queer people are living with and experiencing, and I am curious where BL goes after this.

1:39:34 - Girl, You Tried

So before we talk about where BL is going next…We've been building towards this all season. It's time to hand out Girl, You Tried.

[David laughs]

Dave this is your first time on the podcast with us. During the VIIB Awards we handed out an award for a show that. Boy, there were some ideas, there were some performances—they were not in the same meeting.

David

[laughs] At all. The focus group saw something different. Um, people watched a different show. Some notes got jumbled up. Uh, clearly the director was asleep or just not paying attention. Things happened.

Ben

Nini, please introduce our contestants.

Nini

For those of you who might be new to us, Girl, You Tried is an award that we give out every season for a good concept that struggled with its execution. So, our four nominees. Four, people! Four nominees for Girl, You Tried this season are: late entry—Naked Dining, original entry—A Shoulder to Cry On, and along the way entries—A Boss and a Babe and Step by Step.

You've heard us talk about all of these shows across the season, so we're not going to dive too deep. Y'all will have heard the problems that we had with the shows. David, aside from Naked Dining which is the one you put on the list, maybe tell the people why you think Ben and I put specific shows on the list.

David

To be fair, I did not watch A Shoulder to Cry On because Ben dogged that show out so bad I wasn't even gonna give it the time of day. So, um, I can't vote on A Shoulder to Cry On.

Naked Dining takes it home for me because they were both annoying. They both were getting on my nerves, and this weird thing that they love doing in Japan, where people take off for prolonged periods of time and don't talk to one another…is obnoxious. There were all these weird near misses, and the food was supposed to be more central but it really wasn't. Some things just didn't make sense and no one would explain it. Normally that's okay, but there are things that are central to the story that just didn't make sense.

Ben

How did they try?

David

What they tried for was cute little cooking show with a side of romance. What they got was day-old, discounted bread. They wasted my time and my soul. It was a waste. If we're taking it down to brass tacks, they tried…something…I don't know what it may have been.

Maybe they were trying to do a cooking show. Maybe they were trying to do a show about kitchen safety, and why you shouldn't be in your kitchen naked. I really don't know what they were trying to do.

Ben

Nini, we've talked about a lot of these shows a lot. Who is your winner for Girl, You tried for this season?

Nini

Well for me, it's always gonna be who, with like some nips, some tucks, some tweaks, would have been a 10 for me? That's my criterion, and for me that show is Step by Step, ‘cause Step by Step was like, I think I ended up giving it like a 9.

Ben

Yeah, you gave it a 9…

Nini

Yes, I did! I truly think that with a couple of nips and tucks and tweaks like Step by Step could have been a 10 show for me. I just enjoyed whatever Tee was doing. I…was into the ideas that he was playing with. You know I'm a vibesy bitch and I was feeling the vibe of Step by Step.

But! It needed some—some tidying—it needed some cleaning up. Like I said, some nips, some tucks, and it would have been essential for me. So yeah, Step by Step. That's my winner. How about you, Ben?

Ben

I went back and listened to some of our stuff in preparation for the Girl, You Tried award, and I think the fact that we had a gaming company and a team of gamers and they never did anything with that as a potential crossover feels like a huge miss from the writing standpoint, which means that they were barely paying attention. That's a huge knock in the ‘you're not really’ trying section of the board for me. And I think just listening back, the intensity with which I was criticizing Step by Step is basically the built-in answer for me.

I love Tee a lot, as a creator, as a queer person, and…I'm always rooting for him, but goddamn does he make it hard sometimes.

[David and Ben laugh]

Nini

Ben said Tee’s that friend you have who's right, but damn, shut the fuck up. [laughs]

Ben

Drink your juice, Shelby!

David

Tee really is. Girl, you shoulda just sat there and ate your dinner. Tee really is that friend. See! Just sit there, just eat.

Ben

Like, the reason why it's Step by Step is, as an entertainer, Tee—I think—broke trust with his audience. And he really misfired there, because, like, there are so many good ideas in Step by Step, and he's got a really good eye as a director. He's a really legible storyteller but he's got to figure out how to put these things together. He's got to figure how to structure his episodes more effectively. And so for me, it ends up being Step by Step because I can feel the show that Step by Step wants to be more than the other shows on this list.

Like, Naked Dining doesn't know what it wants to be. A Shoulder to Cry On got edited to all hell because of the idols involved. And what the fuck was New even doing with the bunch of fucking gamers in a workplace BL? Anyway. So, it’s Step by Step.

Nini

All right. The dubious honor of Girl, You Tried for Spring 2023 with two- thirds of the votes [laughs] goes to Step by Step.

David

I amend my vote. You have talked me out of my vote. I will now amend my vote: Step by Step clears the board!

Ben

The whole panel! [laughs]

David

It'll be the only award show it ever sweeps.

[Nini laughs]

Nini

Sorry! So it's now unanimous.

David

Minus ones across the board.

Ben

Alright, panel, 10s or chops? Nini?

Nini

One chop.

Ben

Two chops.

David

Three fucking chops. [Nini laughs]

I don't see it!

1:46:56 - Looking Ahead

Ben

Our final section: Looking Ahead. What do we have up next? Nini, you've got the list.

Nini

Well, what are we watching right now? So let's start with that. So, one of the things that we're watching now [sighs]...I'm just gonna say it. We're watching Be My Favorite. I am on record on this podcast as saying that I had zero interest in watching Be My Favorite. Ben said he was going in hostile—which, he did.

We had to literally amend the name of our chat for the show, like as the show went on. What did it start as?

Ben

Not Our Favorite.

Nini

I was not watching at that point. It went from Not Our Favorite to Maybe? It's Good?? to We’re Mad This Might Be Good. And then now our chat is just called UGH! FINE!!

[David laughs]

David

So I slugged my way through the very first episode, and when he had said it was like the first time in a long time that me and him have both been like ‘absolutely not’ and then…two weeks later this bitch goes “so Be My Favorite” and I turn—aghast, of course—because I thought not only had that ship sailed but we waited until they got at the harbor and we sank it.

And I discover that homegirl down here is taking a sub to go look at its remains. Then of course, because I'm like no this has got to be a complete disaster, because there's no way this Miss Thing went back to his show and now I'm sitting here like “Ugh…okay.”

Ben

What else is on the “Wow are we actually watching this?” list.

David

I know it's not Hidden Agenda.

Nini

It is Hidden Agenda.

David

I haven’t watched it yet because I was gonna let Ben watch it. I'll be like if Ben hates it I won't bother watching it. But I don't want to start watching this shit, and like it, and have this bitch hate it, and not have anybody to watch this show with.

Ben

I don't hate it! I don't think I'm sold on it yet. But I don't hate it.

David

Someone told me that they have definitely gotten better…as acting, now, one show under.

Ben and Nini

Hmmmmmmmmmm...

David

No! Not the both of you! Not the both of you!

[Ben and Nini laugh]

Not the both of you going 'hmmmm' like a starting up race car. I am so mad that you both at the, nearly a second apart 'hmmmm'

[Everyone laughs]

Nini

Here's the thing, right? [David continues laughing] I wasn't going to watch it, then I found out it was Tee and then I was like “well shit, now I have to watch it” because I am contractually obligated to watch everything that he makes after Lovely Writer.

David

Understood.

Nini

This is giving me such Lovely Writer teas in some very specific ways, but it's too early to tell as yet—

David

What are we? Three in, or two in?

Nini

Three in. Yeah, it's too early to tell—like, with Tee you got to give it half the show. Because, like, when I think about Lovely Writer like around four is when it started turn, and by six I was like ‘yeah, okay, in.’

With Tee, he's a slow burn motherfucker. You just got to give him time to get into it. So I am holding my thoughts on it…so far, but I am contractually obligated to watch it all the way through.

Ben

David and I caught up on Laws of Attraction this weekend. It's a lot of fun. We're having a great time.

David

I love him.

Ben

He’s talking about the insane lawyer.

David

His level of outright ridiculous sissiness. I live for. It is walking gay chaos…and I…live… for every moment he is on the screen. And somehow each shirt got gayer.

Like, I don't know if he's having conversations with people in costuming, or if he is like pointing at a random poor little assistant and going “You I want you to go to a woman's blouse store and get the ugliest, most asymmetrical shirt you can.”

Ben

[laughs ]And it better be champagne-colored!

David

“And you are to bring it back here, and I swear to God, if it's not earth-toned or champagne…I will beat you to within an inch of your life. Go do your job and get out of my face.”

He is giving me everything because, look, girls, gays, and theys with guns—I'm here for. And when he goes to that office trying to beat that boy up, and he pulls out that gay-ass little gun… and goes, “Look, Boo-Boo, I'mma put one in you one way or another.”

[Nini laughs]

I live. I live! I was resurrected. I had bronchitis and he cleared it up. It resurrected me. That whole scene healed me in body and spirit. I'm not gonna even lie.

Nini

So I am not watching this. I am waiting for somebody to tell me I must watch this.

David

Oh girl, you're not missing anything. Do not get us wrong! You are not missing cinéma vérité by any stretch of any one's fucking imagination. But what I will tell you is that it is delightful.

Ben

Also from Thailand, we are watching Be Mine Superstar.

Nini

When I was talking earlier about a trash watch. This is what I was talking about. [laughs]

David

I have not been watching it because it was another one that I was kind of waiting to see what Ben was gonna say.

Ben

Be Mine Superstar is fine. It is…very watchable. It isn’t asking a lot of me right now. I'm having a good time with the performances. Overall, it is a low stakes watch for me, and I'm with Nini. Like I'm having a great time with the big pieces but I don't mind having just a very watchable show where it's very clear that Ja and First are having a good time playing against their type.

David

Okay!

Ben

Okay, we're gonna talk about the shit I care about!

Nini

Now Ben wants to talk about Japan.

Ben

Let's talk about Japan!

David

Oh, here she go. Buckle up, folks. It's gonna be a bumpy night.

Ben

Japan is currently airing two shows. I am living my best life!

Currently, we have Tokyo in April is… which is the first new outing from MBS, who have continued their Drama Shower rotation. A lot of you may not be familiar with who MBS is but they are a Japanese broadcasting network. It is very, very cool that MBS is invested in BL because they have produced some of the most important shit that's worked its way out of Japan into the masses, like some of the most famous anime comes from MBS. Very, very cool that MBS is committing an entire second year to BL and they are continuing to get more gritty with the kinds of stories they're willing to tell along the way, and I am really, really impressed with Tokyo in April is… and I don't want to say anything else right now because we have a lot to unpack when we finally discussed it in fall!

Also, Minato’s Laundromat 2 is airing right now, and while Nini may never watch Minato's Laundromat 2 so we'll probably not discuss it on this show except for me saying like it deserves a VIIB Award later, it is really cool that the showrunners opted to abandon the source material for the second season.

From Korea we have Jun & Jun right now. If you are kind of bougie about Korean production, I don't think you're going to enjoy this one.

Finally, Taiwan is back! Oh my god, Taiwan is back and it's as cracked out as ever! Holy shit Stay by My Side is so stupid! I love it!

[David laughs]

We have needed a stupid BL for a while, and like it's not stupid in a sense like the plotting is bad, the storytelling is bad, but it's just so silly. It's like what if we take all these goofy BL tropes and just ramp that up to 9! Not 10, just 9!

We don't know when Man Suang is going to come out. We're anticipating it but we have no idea when it's going to release because they are doing the international festivals circuit thing.

David

A friend of mine got into a viewing of it. Apparently it's good. Sincerely good.

Nini

There is something else coming out of Drama Shower that I don't have on the list because it only came up recently. My Personal Weatherman. That is what it’s called.

And the last one, which I am obligated to mention because my baby Na Naphat. Na and ISBANKY is in it and Saiparn from Midnight Museum. It's Club Saipan Fine: Moments and Memories.

Ben

That looks like a goddamn mess.

Nini

It looks exactly like the kind of trash that I need to watch, and it’s only four episodes.

Ben

I'm glad it's only four episodes, so you can report back quickly because goddamn I am not doing that one.

David

Ben look harrangued—and traumatized—right now. [Ben laughs] He's huddling on the floor in the corner shaking his head.

Nini

It's mess and lesbians.

David

Oh wait! There are lesbians in it?

Nini

Yes.

David

And here we are! We're there. That's it, that’s it. I'm watching it.

1:57:44 - Outro

Ben

As we wrap this up, David, thank you for joining us as our very first guest on The Conversation.

David

Oh god this was awesome.

Nini

I just want to let the people know that we've been here for two hours. I don't know how long the edit's going to be but we've been having a goodass time.

Ben

I think we just take, like, the necessary stuff for the episode and then just release a bonus episode and just call it the David Cut. [David laughs]

David

It's the David Cut where I talk in a gravelly voice.

Ben

David, since we are together we have to do the thing for Nini because she's been waiting for it for a long time.

Let's remind our listeners something very important: Dick is abundant.

David

And low in value.

Ben

Dick futures are not a safe investment.

David

The NASDICK is trending down.

Nini

[crying] The NASDICK…

Ben

I'm making sure it's the NASDICK—I said NASDICK and I almost killed Ben. The first time I said the NASDICK is trending down and almost killed one of my best friends.

Nini

[laughs] On that note, I think it's time to wrap, and we will bid you all adieu until the fall. David, Ben, say bye to the people. We out.

David

Bye! Thank you guys for having me! It was great!

Ben

Peace!

#podcast #lgbtq #my only 12 percent #roommates of poongduck 304 #she loves to cook and she loves to eat #the shipper #me my husband and my husband's boyfriend #earth pirapat #ben and nini's conversations #the conversation #on art #summer 2023 #season 3 #summer series #Spotify

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mostlyfate · 5 months

Note

Hi :) what are your faves kdrama ?

Hi hi! :D Whenever I get ask about favorite dramas my perspective always seems to change as time goes by tbh! Here's an old ask from 2021 that included my favorite kdramas — but now I'm honestly really picky with what I call a "favorite" drama. Like yes, I still very much enjoyed past ones I called a favorite but if I had to put it in a category it'd be that I just enjoyed it a lot in the moment. If that makes any sort of sense 😭 For a drama to be a favorite I literally need to feel some sort of attachment to it. So if I would give a list of fave kdramas it would literally be like just one ngl 😅 But anyways I'll list kdramas that I enjoyed watching and would recommend giving a try! (read until the end for that one favorite kdrama haha)

2023:

— My Lovely Boxer | episodes: 12, duration: 1hr. 10 min. genres: drama, romance, sports. » Main leads chemistry and bickering 💯

— Destined With You | episodes: 16, duration: 1hr. 10 min. genres: comedy, fantasy, romance. » Plot 🙅‍♀️ Couple being sick in love w each other 👌

2022:

— May It Please the Court | episodes: 12, duration: 1hr. 5 min. genres: comedy, drama, law. » Fun, fun leads! Great chemistry, great acting, love me a law drama. 👩‍⚖️

— One Dollar Lawyer | episodes: 12, duration: 1hr. 10 min. genres: comedy, drama, law. » All around fun characters, great fits. Wacky scenes? ✓ Serious scenes? ✓

2021 and previous years:

— Idol: The Coup (2021) | episodes: 12, duration: 1hr. 25 min. genres: drama, music, youth. » If you're in the mood for an drama about idols... great music ✓ intense chemistry ✓

— To My Star (2021) + (Season 2!) | episodes: 09, duration: 0hr. 15 min. genres: comedy, romance, youth. » 🫶 Such an enjoyable watch, honestly! ��

— One the Woman (2021) | episodes: 16, duration: 1hr. 10 min. genres: comedy, mystery, romance. » idk i just remember enjoying this one with a lot of laughs! and honey lee kills it every time!!

— 365: Repeat the Year (2020) | episodes: 24, duration: 0 hr. 35 min. genres: fantasy, mystery, thriller. » I loved this drama a lot and the main two leads were everything!! 🥹

— Run On (2020) | episodes: 16, duration: 1 hr. 15 min. genres: life, romance, sports. » such a treat it was! everyone was chaotic, ki seon-gyeom i miss u 🤏

— Live On (2020) | episodes: 08, duration: 1 hr. 3 min. genres: comedy, romance, youth. » i remember loving female leads growth!! and the leads relationship was v cute!

— Radio Romance (2018) | episodes: 16, duration: 1 hr. 10 min. genres: business, comedy, romance. » 🫶 it's just a kdrama i love a lot 😭 and had a blast rewatching last january 😭 might be bias bc im in love with yoon doojoon lol but the first time i watched back in 2018 i didn't know much about him and i remember enjoying it then as well. idk i just love it and enjoyed it to the fullest. ✨

— While You Were Sleeping (2017) | episodes: 32, duration: 30 min. genres: comedy, fantasy, mystery, romance, thriller. » "So, the first kdrama I ever watched! It holds a special place in my heart because of that fact! The soundtrack for this drama also... I remember listening to it on repeat for a while after finishing." < What I previously said which still holds true! >

— Guardian: The Lonely and Great God (2016) | episodes: 16, duration: 1 hr. 22 min. genres: comedy, fantasy, melodrama, romance, supernatural. » Not me just rewatching this a bit ago... still v funny and iconic 😭

+ A Business Proposal (2022), A Piece of Your Mind (2020), Extraordinary You (2019), Strong Woman Do Bong Soon (2017), Secret Forest (2017) + season 2 (2020)

I'm probably missing others I enjoyed but these are like the ones I remember the most enjoying. I mean I have like the worst memory soo 😅

Drumroll my favorite kdrama?!?

— Splash Splash Love (2015) | episodes: 02, duration: 1 hr. 10 min. genres: comedy, historical, romance, supernatural. » "This one isn’t an full length drama but a special. It’s just a fun and charming drama? Like not exactly sure what about it made me love it so much? but I do and it’s an easy/quick watch. :)"

+ I know what made me love it so much = yoon doojoon (once again) 😂 for real though, I just love this special to pieces. and i wish it was an actual full-length drama 😭 like it's everything and i always think about it every now and then 🥺 their chemistry was everything! their acting was so good! i am so sad we didnt get moreee 😭😭😭

anyways!! i'm just a weird when it comes to something being a favorite like i only have one all time favorite drama ever (Talio Fukushu Daiko no Futari, 2020.) that i never shut up about and that's itt. 😅😭

#ask #anonymous #kdrama #e.txt

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theaceofskulls · 11 months

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Oh boy... some thoughts on Red Vs Blue now that the announcement of the final season is here.

This series was probably one of my favorites. Hell for a bit there one of the more popular posts I had was a starter guide for people getting into it. It's not a long series but I knew that people had a limited amount of time and with every season being a full 90 minutes to 2 hours long, asking someone to catch up on 10 movies worth of stuff to get to the current arcs was an ask.

I was a fan of the series before Rooster Teeth got into making RWBY. Hell, I was a fan of the series before I got into Rooster Teeth in general.

In fact I like to say that RvB set my expectations for RWBY and is part of the reason I was able to enjoy the series as much as I have. So it's got me feeling all sorts of things to watch this come up as the finale announcement while RWBY's ultimate fate is currently up in the air, especially thinking back on how RvB really started without all of the corporate nonsense and way worse that everything surrounding Rooster Teeth is wrapped up in.

Anyways, if you haven't caught on, this is going to be rambling so I'll apologize here and put a readmore so that everyone else can just move past

RvB shows its age. From the fact that the best way to start it is something I'll put plenty of advisory warnings on when I share it with newcomers to the fact that it still rolls with machinima. There's a charm to that though. It's like watching a webcomic that you've fallen into. The start is rough but it finds a footing that no one else can really claim to be anything similar to.

That said, "rough" is a word that I feel eventually haunted the series for me.

Anyone who looks over my tag of it can see I'm a huge fan of the show and weathered almost every change it went through and oh boy does this show go through changes. It's fair to say that one of the biggest exodus of fans was after Season 5 when it looked like it ended for the first time when Season 6 took the series in a more serious route continuing off of the drama from 5 (and the mini series around that time). In fact, almost every transition saw people dip off and it's understandable even if most of them felt great in the long run once the new arcs were allowed to get rolling.

But I'll admit that eventually, I was one of those fans, and I wasn't alone from what I've experienced.

Season 13 had a monumental ending. Actually one of the more emotional pieces of media I've seen and that's not something I say lightly. It had a spectacular examination of storytelling and managed to find a solid endpoint to a character arc that wrecked me. I still tear up whenever I rewatch it.

Season 14 was a great cooldown by going with some more experimental media that disconnected itself from the stakes and acted as a good bonus, and I was willing to see more from the series.

However despite my willingness to meet this show with each of its new arcs in their own ways, the next couple seasons threw me and a lot of fans off. Something was definitely wrong and it wasn't just the change to the status quo or the new framing, it definitely began to spin wheels and to lose direction in a way that other arcs hadn't.

I got midway through season 16 before I just stopped checking in without realizing it. I kept up with the company though I rarely looked into anything other than RWBY or Gen:LOCK as the company began to shift away towards something different.

I've talked with other fans about this at various points whose experiences match my own. Anyone who made it to the Chorus arc of Seasons 11-13 all tend to agree that the show definitely managed to weather every arc change except the last two/three (depending on if you view season 15->16 as its own shift).

I compare this heavily to the fact that most people got through 15 and partway into 16 than the fact that most people who bounced off Season 6, 9, or 11 did so a few episodes in.

And almost everyone has an identical story: We all tried RvB Zero.

A lot has been said about it but this is my rambling post and if you're this far you're probably willing to read my take.

I went in welcoming the change of cast, the animation style, and the fact that it would probably be rougher to start. But I hate to say this: it was extremely poorly written and poorly delivered. Characters and plots were collections of tropes that couldn't hold the action scenes at the core of the show together. "Reveals" were things I assumed would be subversions and the show spent no time getting us invested in the characters because it was given a ridiculously short runtime so the twists landed with no emotional weight.

I know the creator has to deal with constant criticism of the show and is defensive of it so I have no wish to add to that pile but even approaching the season on its own merits I was unable to engage with it and felt like I was burying the series there.

Then came all the Rooster Teeth scandals. Crunch was a rumor but was then confirmed. Everything regarding the animation team (the other two big items were unrelated to RvB and RWBY but did put a damper on me engaging with the company the way it had always presented itself via the personalities it showcased). I drifted away from them until the latest season of RWBY (which itself premiered on a service that continues to deal with union related scandals). Regardless I'd sort of made my peace with RvB.

So then comes the announcement of the final season written by Burnie, whose retirement seems to have been in part one of the big reasons I drifted away from both the series and the company (it's notable that when I was a fan, the podcasts with him tended to be the highlights). I'm not here to put any of the founders on a pedestal after all of the dirty laundry that's come out about some of them, but it's reignited interest in this series at the least.

Added to that the soft retcon of everything after season 13, it seems a sort of acknowledgement that the series did lose its touch.

This post was meant to help me process the feelings I've had since hearing this announcement and record my experience with the show and I can't say for sure that I've sorted things completely as much as it feels like I understand where I stand with this.

I want it to be good. I want it to be a send off the series deserves. It's sad to watch something you've followed for almost 20 years be laid to rest and it's the closing of the chapter of "amateur art" as one of the last big machinima series comes to close.

If RWBY continues, its almost certainly going to be done by a separate studio, and while I've heard people are enjoying the new podcast formats I don't really enjoy general podcasts as much as specific interest ones these days.

All in all, this feels like closing a chapter on not just a series but the studio itself as Rooster Teeth has changed its logo to remove the "cock bite", changed its cast to remove most of the "old guard", and now lays to rest its longest running series. It's been obvious this has been coming for the better half of a decade now, but it's still the moment to me where a book is being closed. And it's bittersweet in its own way.

#red vs blue #rwby #rooster teeth

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bee-snail · 2 years

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11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 21, & 23 from the TTS ask meme! (LOL that's a lot)

Ty for the ask! I really like being able to rant about TTS so don't worry, this was just perfect hehehehe

11. What is a major change (rewrite) that you would make to the canon?

Hector. My guy showed up in one (1) episode and then went "welp, I've been defeated. Guess I can't do anything about the strangers trying to steal the relic I was desperately trying to protect just one episode ago. I'll just have to chill uselessly in the forest until I'm needed for the plot again."

It would've been SO FUN if Hector continued to chase them down until the very end. We could've had a "Team Rocket"-esque kind of episodes with him, where he shows up to try to destroy them, is defeated, and they escape. That would've honestly been a BILLION times more entertaining to me than like 3 episodes in Tromus' place, plus it would've given us a really more interesting finale AND we would've gotten to see more of Adira, because if Hector continuously tried to chase them down through the mid-final episodes of the season, Adira would most likely travel with them to be ready to defend them whenever Hector showed up.

12. What is the biggest loose end or question that you still have?

Demanitus and Zhan Tiri's relationship.

Canon offered us a really contradictory story of them, where in one episode we hear Demanitus himself say "my pupils betrayed me and summoned the Great Demon Zhan Tiri" and in the finale, we see Zhan Tiri herself say in their flashback that "this quest for the Sundrop and Moonstone was both of ours", so... Which one was it?! Were you immediately enemies or were you partners?! Or did Demanitus initially believe Ziti was evil (assuming his pupils did betray him and summon her behind his back), only to convince her (or be convinced by her) to look for the Drops together... Only to act surprised when the literal demon did morally bad things and then did a 180, pretended he was a perfect little angel who would never ally himself to a literal demon, and sent her off to acid hell?

TELL ME. WHAT WAS IT?! WHAT HAPPENED, SHOW?

13. Would you want a TTS spinoff? If yes, what would it be about?

I don't think TTS would ever get a spin-off considering TTS itself is already a spin-off in a way, but I'd love to see Zhan Tiri and Demanitus' journey until the finale when he sends her away!! We'd get well-deserved lore on both of them (as well as clarification, finally!), as well as more insight on Gothel's motivations and past, and finally some focus on Sugracha and Tromus !!!!

14. What merchandise for the series would you have liked to see?

Zhan Tiri and Demanitus merch 💞

Brotherhood merch would be so cool too!!!

15. What are your feelings on the possible live-action adaptation of Tangled?

Bro, I'd definitely be down for it. I take whatever crumbs I'm given, regardless if it'll be a "bad" adaptation like Mulan or something, just because I'm that thirsty for content lmao.

21. If you're a content creator, what is your favorite piece of content you've made for TTS?

My Ziti redesign is my favorite artwork(s, since I made soooo many doodles of her ahwhehhe) and my favorite fic is Moonrise :]

23. Share an unpopular opinion about the show or the characters.

Most of the time I walk into a fic, I'm already biased. There's a select few characters I love so much I'm willing to ignore all their wrongs, and a few characters I hate so much I'm willing to amplify every little wrong thing they do by 1.000.000x. Varian, Rapunzel and Cassandra are often beloved by everybody and put into that former category I described, but for me it's a little different:

Cassandra is one of the characters I truly hate. The only characters I hate more than I hate Cassandra are Frederic and Demanitus, but even then it's by a very thin line. Rapunzel and Edmund come in a little more softly in my hatred scale, but I'm still very biased towards them and am unwilling to feel anything truly good about them unless they prove themselves worthy in the particular work I'm reading.

Regarding Cassandra: if she were to die, I'd say "Good riddance!", Because you really can't pin most of the things she did in season 3 on "Ziti's manipulation". Cassandra chose to nearly kill Calliope. Cassandra chose to Mindtrap the Brotherhood. Cassandra chose to attack Corona, even though she had absolutely zero reason to do so. Cassandra has been a true Frederic-level dickhead during the entirety of season three, and the fact she didn't receive a single, even minor punishment in the end, all because she apologized to Rapunzel, is ridiculous.

Of course there are exceptions to this "rule", but I always walk into fics with this bias of mine. There is not a single Frederic nor a single Demanitus I actually like, although Edmund, Rapunzel and Cassandra often "redeem" themselves in my eyes in a few select works. Most of the time though, they could die and I would not care less. Good riddance, pricks.

#tts #tangled the series #rapunzel's tangled adventure #tangled #ask

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pixie-mask · 2 years

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Xena: WP Season 1

Thanks to Ted Raimi I’ve found myself journeying back to my child hood and properly watching Xena. When I was little I watched the show, but only caught random episodes. Episodes I remember catching kind of at least went up to Hope’s child, but I don’t remember Joxer in the slightest. Actually I didn’t remember anyone outside of Xena, Gabrielle and Hope.

It’s a 90s show so it’s got some campiness to it and the effects have to be forgiven, but it’s such a better show than I remember or would have known. I’m amazed at the topics they cover in different episodes, allowing for people to have a rather equal argument Xena unless its like you know something so obviously wrong.

Xena goes through more trials and tribulations than I would have thought. She gets to be badass but not necessarily invincible. Surprised honestly by how often she takes blows from people who by all means are somewhat below her skill level, but also faces people who can hold their own against her fairly well.

I seriously love how they make her just a person. Even with her confidence it never crosses (at least to me) into full arrogance, she can be wrong, she’s right, she teaches and she learns. She gets to embarrass people but also be embarrassed in turn. It’s so good.

Was surprised to be with Gabrielle on her growth as a character and I have to admit I love her upbeat personality, but at the beginning it was rather annoying, but I think the plot has developed her in a way where it’s more charming and endearing now.

Anyway real quick my favorite episodes of season one (spoilers):

Episode 2: Chariots of War

Love this overall episode in regards to its view on and want of peace. I especially love the split plot of Darius & Xena and Gabrielle & Sphaerus. With the later being more of a quick influence.

I thought at first I would find Darius too stubborn but it also works with the story. Namely with Sphaerus instead of Cycnus. Sphaerus was the absolute heart to me of this episode as I really thought he was going to fall into his father’s mindset but I love that he overall stuck with his beliefs overall.

Episode 4: Cradle of Hope

I think this episode is adorable. Gregor was more of a level-headed king than I thought he would be. There was more of a real feeling to him when it came to the idea of killing an unknown child as well as the grief of losing his own child and wife. I would say that the Pandora’s Box plot felt a bit unnecessary, but in terms of Pandora herself (she’s Pandora’s granddaughter, did she really need the same name) it ties into this idea of family this episode presents. With Gregor loosing his child, adopting the child that was a “threat” to his rule, Pandora bound to a family curse, to her being unable to find peace enough to have a family to the plot ending with Gregor, Pandora, and Gabriel (the baby) becoming a family.

I do have to say that I didn’t really care about the Pandora’s Box reveal, but I guess they had to sate the audience’s curiosity?

This episode also had two of my favorite sequences in it. First is Xena as a dancer from the dancing itself all the way to her escape from the castle. The second moment is the fight with the baby being tossed around.

Episode 12: Beware Greeks Bearing Gifts

I felt so bad for Helen omg. While it’s somewhat past the kick off point, seeing how she’s treated fully as a trophy is heartbreaking, but I love the development of her coming/having to accept that she’s no longer viewed as someone to be loved and putting her foot down to that fact.

Episode 15: Warrior...Princess

Another more comedic episode that I didn’t expect to like fully but I did. A key part to that was definitely Diana. Sure she had a minor problem with the “little people” thing, but overall she’s genuinely sweet and good hearted. Overall she have as many complaints about “roughing it” as one would expect and it was was pleasant to see that she does actually care about what’s happening to the people in her kingdom.

Now my only thing is the obvious Diane & Philemon romance. For some reason Diana is set up to marry Philemon’s brother Mineus and I cannot remember why. From the get go of meeting Philemon the attraction is undeniable and even from the way Diana talks about him, so why wasn’t he just set to marry her. I want to say that it might be because of Mineus being the eldest but that doesn’t really seem to matter by the end of things. Overall though that factor doesn’t deter the episode from me.

Episode 22: Callisto

This was it! This is the episode where Joxer was finally introduced! And omg. The most I can say off the back is just from a tast of this I will probably have mixed feelings to the way humor is processed with his character, but I’ve also had a positive feeling towards various clips so maybe it was just the writers fleshing out and getting use to him some.

Honestly he melted my heart in this. From his pleading with Callisto to let him prove himself as a warrior, talking to Gabrielle about his tradition and then how heartbroken he looks when Callisto speaks down about his inability to kill. Overall I was really happy about how he was introduced, cause I was worried initially.

The big surprise for me was Callisto. OMG I love her. She’s so gleeful in her villainy and mental torment of Xena. I think it did a better job of giving her backstory but not supporting her actions more than some stories do with their tragic start villains. The fact that she’s got skills on part with Xena doesn’t hurt. Oh and her hissing is fantastic, as well as the slight snake sounds that are associated with her.

Episode 24: Is There A Doctor in the House

This episode was so so so good. I don’t know how to fully go into it unlike the ones above.

I love the whole story of war and the negativity of it and how ones motivations and goals can become twisted and cruel. Marmax was such a fantastic character based on the journey he had in this episode. He wasn’t played one dimensionally like you think he would be. We hear his intent but we also see how he struggles to keep to it when there are so many injured and dying around him, how he views Gabrielle and even his calm conversations with Ephiny.

Speaking of which I did not expect her to return. And she returned pregnant with Phantes’ child. Which just makes one think about the fact that a human woman and male centaur had sex and the plot just wants up to accept that. You know what fine...but the questions are there. Also they acted a little bit like she could push that baby out!?

There was also the priest who I forgot about and the episode seem to as well. He popped up every now and then and honestly...he could have been worse. He talked and did his complaints, but also didn’t do much else so the plot didn’t make me help him.

Also the moment with Xena begging not to die at the end. Just amazing.

Quick Mentions:

Quick shout outs to episodes 17: The Royal Couple of Thieves and episode 18: The prodigal. I wanted to like those enough but it just didn’t work out.

Episode 17: I thought the humor with Autolycus (whose name I nearly keep misspelling) was great and it was a find introduction to the character. For me. Since I remember even less about Hercules: The Legendary Journeys. (Although I’m apparently mixing it up with Beastmaster some.) I didn’t really care so much for the reveal of the 10 commandments but it also made me appreciated how they handled the plot in episode 19: Altered States.

Episode 18: Highlights one of the few problems I have with Gabrielle. While I understand it can be tiresome to hear her constantly go on about Xena. I will say though that I liked the Meleager plot line. I thought it was simply going to be oh look they hired a fake warrior that falsely pumped himself up and was just going to be a joke, but nope he was the real deal once he sobered up. I really liked that.

#Xena: Warrior Princess

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gilsgirl · 2 years

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911 Lone Star Season 4 - My Thoughts

[Long Post Warning]

🚒

Oh hey tumblr, it's me! I've had this idea in my head for a while and thought that since most of my tumblr following is Spam-bots and inactive/deleted accounts (There's a few of you who are still active, so heyyy thanks for still following me!) that I would do my first one on Tumblr. I would love to start Youtube channel, but I still feel a bit shy.

I used to write a lot! If you have been following my blog since, geez, 2012 you know that. Unfortunately, I have been in a very long period of writers block. I'm hoping getting creative ideas on the page will help me start to write again.

The idea I have is to explain what I would want to see happen, or what I would do if I was one of the story writers of some of my favorite shows upcoming seasons. Or even what I think will be happening in these upcoming seasons. I hope this makes sense lol!

The first show I want to deep dive into has been my hyper-fixation show for the past several months (thanks @iboatedhere 🤣). I mean, I have watched the first three seasons of this show maybe 15 times at this point! I just found out a couple weeks ago that they have started production for season 4, and I am so excited to see what is in store! Of course the show I am talking about is 911 Lone Star!

Let's begin:

What I think will happen/What I want to happen

Sectioned by character:

Owen

This man annoys me 10/10 so I hope we see him continue to go to therapy.

I really enjoyed the storyline they gave us at the end of season 3 with Owen returning to California to say goodbye to his father.

I could see the half-brother doing the same thing, coming to Austin trying to connect to his father's past. I also love that irl the actor playing Owen's half-brother is Rob Lowe's brother. That is cool!

Owen telling TK about his past. Does TK know he's named after Owen's brother?

I want Owen and Catherine back together - I know they're toxic af, but I love two type-A characters bouncing off each other!

TK/Carlos (they're together because their relationship is a main storyline)

Jesus....

If they injure this man again...*clenches fist*

Role reverse with Carlos? Carlos gets injured, and TK is at the bedside.

Here's how I would do it: Carlos takes his detective test, passes. Gets put on this high profile case. While investigating, gets kidnapped. Not just for several hours like TK/Tommy/Nancy is that one episode, but for weeks. Then the TK sobriety storyline could tie into this as well. Obviously, when he is found he's relatively okay. They could also tie this into the Judd PTSD storyline too.

Tarlos wedding

less fade to black scenes...this is why I wish that this show wasn't on cable TV. They do fade to black for all the romance aspects. Nancy and Mateo, TK and Carlos, Owen and Catherine.

Paul

I just want this man to be HAPPY! Please 🙏

I would love to see the sister come back in some way, that would be a cool idea

Judd

I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Wyatt storyline! I think it saved his character tbh

I would love to see more from this storyline, but from the season 3 finale it made it seem like Wyatt is going off to college and won't be around.

More about the accident at the beginning of the show. PTSD doesn't just go away like they portrayed.

Maybe during a BBQ the grill does that thing that grills do where the flame

Marjan

Much like Paul, I want Marjan to be on a call and click with someone they are saving.

Maybe she gets hurt on a call. Nothing big, but needs to be out for a couple weeks.

She bumps into this person during that time and starts to secretly date them.

OF COURSE Paul is the first to sniff that shit out! He is her BFF, obviously!

Nancy

GIVE ME A NANCY BACKSTORY!

I want to know why she decided to become an EMT. In the O.G. 911 they did this for Hen and it was a really cool concept.

Similar, there is an episode where she talks about her sister, show me the family!!!

More scenes between her and Mateo. I STG is the writers make them break up I will do something detrimental...

Mateo

(similar to Nancy) GIVE ME A BACKSTORY!!

They hinted at a backstory several times: Dad being in Guadalajara, and being a DREAMER. That is great bones for a backstory! Just saying.

You can tell that Mateo and Nancy's characters were never meant to be apart of the ensemble, but the audience loved their characters so much that they now have storylines. I am excited to see where the writers take them.

Tommy

One of the twins starts getting in trouble at school

Maybe series finale, or series middle finale the twin sets a fire in the school? Or does that seem too much?

Tommy embracing the single Mom life, finally feeling steady in her routine.

It also would be a good idea for Tommy to think that she see's her late husband at one of their scenes. Starts seeing him everywhere. It's not him though, just a man that looks like him.

🚒

What I would write

🚑 Judd goes to surprise visit Wyatt, only to find out that he dropped out of college. He can't get a hold of him, and goes to work. On a call, a new firehouse shows up with fancy gear, tech, truck and their new tech guy...Wyatt.

🚒 Add a single season character, who's exit at the end of the season makes for good drama! AKA this character gets k!lled off. My initial thoughts would be a untamable, young firefighter with survivors guilt, like Judd, gets sent to Owens team

#Thishasbeeninmydraftsforawhile #911 lone star #owen strand #tk strand #judd x grace #wyatt harris #tommy vega #nancy gillian #mateo chavez #marjan marwani #paul strickland #carlos reyes #tarlos #let me know your predictions

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raifenlf · 3 years

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Why Loki’s Sylvie Is A Mary Sue

So I am firmly in the camp that Sylvie on the Loki series was/is a Mary Sue. The last episode made me feel better and like maybe the show was doing a thing where they were faking you out that she was a Mary Sue only to show she was actually sort of a bad guy and I liked that. But all the recent interviews make me think the show wants to go back to her being a Mary Sue.

But I feel like when I call her out for being a Mary Sue people tell me what are you talking about, she’s not a Mary Sue, bad things happen to her, etc. But that doesn’t actually make her not a Mary Sue.

Also, before we start, I know some people find Mary Sue sexist. But I personally use the term for guys and girls. I don’t use the term to belittle women. I use the term to criticize a poorly written character.

And I know Mary Sue is often used to describe fanfic characters. But to me, this series is kind of like a fanfic because the writers took a character who had been in canon MCU material for ten years and then created characters around that character. So, I kind of review it like I would a fanfic. It’s very different than if the writers had created a brand new show with all of their own new characters.

Anyway, if you are not totally familiar with the Mary Sue term, then check this out:

I know the term Mary Sue probably means different things to different people. But I have always used these guidelines when I write my own fanfic to make sure my characters never come off as a Mary Sue.

This article really gives you a full scale of what a Mary Sue is. If you start reading it, you’ll immediately see why Sylvie is. But I’m going to take out the parts that most fit Sylvie just to highlight why I believe she is a Mary Sue. I apologize for this being so long.

Mary Sue Character Traits

Personality

Erm... what personality? The typical Mary Sue doesn't have one per se, because she isn't meant to be a character; rather, she's an entity by which the author makes cool stuff happen.

I feel like that is Sylvie in a nutshell. She doesn’t have a personality. I feel like even though she ate screentime, I still don’t really know her at all. The writers love to say she’s badass. That’s not a personality.

Sometimes when I am writing stories for fun and creating new characters, I like to take surveys as my fictional characters. Like the kind of surveys you’d see in a magazine, like personality types, what’s your dating style, etc. I figure if I don’t know what my character would do in any of those situations, then I need to keep working on my character. And if I was trying to fill out a survey pretending I was Sylvie I would have no idea what to answer because she doesn’t have a personality. She’s just “cool”.

What little personality a Mary Sue has isn't as important as how other characters react to it. No matter how shy or socially awkward Mary Sue is supposed to be, other characters will be inexplicably drawn to her

This is so Sylvie. Loki falls in love with her...why, exactly? He falls in love with her in the big Nexus event moment...why? Because she had a tough childhood? Mobius spends like two seconds with her in a car and goes from hating her to saying she’s his favorite Loki. For. No. Particular. Reason.

She's extremely persuasive; everyone finds her opinions to be better than their own

She enchants Hunter B-15 and then immediately Hunter B-15 makes it her whole entire life mission to back Sylvie up.

And occasionally she'll be a complete asshole...This can manifest itself in several ways...The author wants to write a badass but doesn't know how. This leads to a character who mistreats everyone around her and is never called out on her abrasive, casually abusive behavior.

Sylvie talked down to Loki and treated him like garbage for all of episode three, but it was never portrayed as a bad thing and we never got any impression Sylvie later felt bad for the way she treated Loki

The author doesn't know how to hold back the character, meaning that she will succeed at practically everything. This means that when she encounters rules or authority figures who would otherwise prevent her from doing what she wants to do, she rolls right through them (and they praise her for her "boldness" in defying regulations). If a bad guy is violent and aggressive, she can beat him by being more violent and aggressive (with all that entails). It's impossible for her to go overboard because she's protected by Protagonist-Centered Morality.

Sylvie is shown as a kid to immediately be able to grab a Tempad and run away. And she can kick ass way better than Loki, for no known reason. She is always able to fight back against the TVA when they attack her. And she can kill lots of innocent TVA agents but it’s okay because TVA bad, Sylvie good.

Skills

She will always be superior to the canon characters, regardless of what canon has established they can do or whether it makes any sense.

Whose skill was needed to defeat Alioth? Sylvie’s. Of course. Sylvie needed to teach Loki her skills in order for him to succeed (!). And again, she is literally called the superior Loki.

Relatedly, there's no effort to her skills. She never actually trains or learns anything to become more powerful; she just wins the Super Power Lottery, or is a freakish natural learner, or is just Inexplicably Awesome

We’re told Sylvie literally taught herself magic. She literally taught herself to enchant people. That. Makes. No. Sense. Like, I have so many questions. Like, why would it even occur to her to teach herself that? And how???????????? This is really lazy writing.

Canon Character Relationships

Mary Sue is often designed to hook up with another character, often as a form of Wish Fulfillment. This isn't that bad in and of itself (okay, it is kinda weird), but Mary Sue accomplishes this without any sense of realism. She just grabs her lover's attention straight away, and their relationship will never face any obstacles or tension; it's true love from the start and nothing else. The biggest giveaway is if the love interest is explicitly the author's favorite character, and she essentially "cures" him of all the angst that ails him (at the expense of his characterization).

Yeah, so...this one should be pretty obvious to anyone who watched the show. Loki literally falls in love with Sylvie immediately, and then he suddenly turns from “villain” to “hero” just because of loving her. And this was definitely at the expense of his characterization. And Loki just knows he falls in love with her. There’s not even any moments of hmm what do I feel for this person? It’s just true love, immediately.

She will be related to a canon character in some way. This (marginally) helps explain such phenomena as her being a Copy Cat Sue and other characters accepting her so easily.

Sylvie is a Loki variant. They use this to help explain why Loki is drawn to her and why their falling in love immediately “makes sense”.

Most characters give her more heed than they normally would. The good guys never stop praising her

Seriously, it was so over the top and OOC for Loki to gush over her. He literally tells her she’s amazing. They don’t even make it subtle.

Characters' previously established personalities change in reaction to her. Proud, arrogant gimps suddenly acknowledge her superiority in everything. Reckless youths will listen to all her advice. Responsible leaders will defer to her instead. Villains will obsess with her to the detriment of all else. Extremely competent characters will become stumbling buffoons who require her help to do anything. Sweet, mild-mannered characters whom the author doesn't like turn evil and insult her. They all become unnaturally focused on her in some way.

Again, Loki’s whole personality changed in reaction to her. He became a buffoon who needed her help to enchant the Alioth because of course he couldn’t do anything without her! Hunter B-15 goes from doing whatever the TVA said to fighting the TVA just because of Sylvie.

Story Elements

Mary Sue is without exception a single-person Spotlight-Stealing Squad. The entire story hinges on her existence; if you removed her, there would be no story.

Sylvie undoubtedly drove the whole story this season. It all became about HER meeting the TVA heads because of HER trauma. Loki’s life was only saved at the beginning because the TVA was trying to capture HER. And SHE was the one who started the whole multiverse (!).

Mary Sue is The Chosen One, even if the setting already has one. There are many ways she can accomplish this: she can be a Sailor Earth type who "shares" the position with the canon hero; she may be vaguely "destined to help the destined one fulfill their destiny" (i.e. do all the work except the final blow so that the prophecy is still technically correct); or the canon hero may be revealed to be a Fake Ultimate Hero all along. Being the Chosen One doesn't necessarily involve her being a God-Mode Sue, especially as authors become aware of the phenomenon and try to avoid it, but it does make her critically important to the world and allows her to continue stealing the spotlight without the "god mode" label.

HWR wanted Sylvie to come with Loki in the end, like she was chosen all along right alongside Loki. Like one of the most important characters in the entire MCU is now this character who we only met a few episodes ago.

Most Sues have an unusually Dark and Troubled Past. It's often used to create a Sympathetic Sue, but any type of Sue can have one

They tell us, over and over, how hard Sylvie’s life was because she was kidnapped by the TVA in order to create sympathy for her.

She almost never does anything wrong. In the rare instance that she does, it's usually; (a) a way for the author to disclaim her being a Mary Sue by introducing a single imperfection (that has no bearing on anything anyway), and (b) designed to show her smarts by making her feel instant remorse, and she'll be Easily Forgiven anyway:

So this one hopefully will not come true, as a lot can change between now and when the show is taped. But if the show goes on the way the behind the scenes team is talking, Sylvie immediately felt remorse for betraying Loki, and Loki has already forgiven her and is desperately looking for her. Ugh.

Alternatively, she is more than capable of doing something wrong, be it in general moral terms or something that goes against whatever code she abides by, and she maybe even frequently does so, but don't expect the other characters or the narrative to ever acknowledge or comment on it in any real capacity. If the other characters do call her out, expect them to be treated like they're the problem for daring to criticize her at all.

Mobius calls her out for killing people, but Sylvie immediately says he’s a bad person and then Mobius agrees, because, of course.

She will often suffer from Special Snowflake Syndrome; i.e., she has a trait or backstory that sets her apart from her group or race.

She is the only female Loki, thus making her the special one among all the Lokis in episode five.

Presentation

In visual media, the camera just can't stop staring at her.

The camera would follow her in fight scenes rather than Loki.

Mary Sue Tropes

Okay, so there are specific Mary Sue tropes that Sylvie is. One of those is Copy Cat Sue, which I think was referenced before.

Copy Cat Sue

A lot of fanfic writers...start to write something because of their passion for this character, but they find something about the character that doesn't mesh well. Maybe they're the wrong gender or are otherwise not close enough to the author's expectations...In any case, rather than put them through the Possession Sue process, they just get a Clone-O-Matic™ and out pops a Copy Cat Sue...the character might be intended as a replacement for the canon character, but without whatever icky traits the author hates. They'll then rob the spotlight, prove the canon character to be unworthy of his/her position, and either relegate the character to obsolescence or, perhaps, even remove them entirely.

Sylvie is basically a clone of Loki, she is a variant. But she absolutely robbed the spotlight of Loki’s, and they literally call her the superior Loki. I mean, they are literally not even being subtle about this. And there was a feeling by myself (and a lot of other viewers) that Sylvie might ultimately replace Loki in the MCU.

Black Hole Sue

Much like a black hole, this is a Mary Sue who "sucks in" the plot and characters to her. Characters will behave outside their personalities, logic will be defied, and rules will be broken for her sake.

Sylvie really does suck up all the plot and Loki definitely behaves outside of his personality just to fit the Sylvie show.

Jerk Sue

A Mary Sue who is mean or maybe even cruel, but are still treated as an ideal person.

Once again, Sylvie is basically a jerk all of episode three, but you’ve got Loki falling over himself to call her amazing in just the next episode.

Relationship Sue

A Mary Sue who exists to be the perfect mate for a specific character...this character has everything in the plot conspiring to enforce this One True Pairing...in Fanfiction, they are the perfect beloved of a canon character.

They literally have Mobius speculate that Loki falling in love with Sylvie is so extraordinary that it causes an entire Nexus event, that’s how huge this One True Pairing is (!). And Sylvie is the love interest of Loki, the only character who had been around before the beginning of the series

TLDR: Sylvie has all the tropes of a classic Mary Sue character. So calling Sylvie a Mary Sue isn’t being sexist or just randomly hating on the character. If you use common Mary Sue characteristics to examine the character, she just has too many of these characteristics to ignore.

#loki negativity #antisylvie #loki critical #loki criticism #antisylkie

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purplerose244 · 2 years

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My thoughts on the (first?) 12 episodes of Ninjago Crystalized!!!

(SPOILERS ALERT)

SO THE EPISODES DROPPED ALL AT THE SAME TIME APPARENTLY? SO I'M JUST GONNA PUT TOGETHER SOME THOUGHTS I GUESS??? 🤯🤯🤯

FAREWELL THE SEA

Starting from the grief I see 😢

Who the freak are these new ninja I kinda love them actually? 🤣

Okay so new mayor, guess we'll never meet the other one... and this one complains that while saving the world 15 times the ninja do collateral damage. Poor baby has to spend money for the city while instead they could HAVE IT DESTROYED SINCE THANKS TO THE NINJA IT WAS SAVED 15 TIMES ALREADY

(The damage is a fair point but dang at least a thank you 😅)

Zane is coping in his way, it would be very unhealthy if he wasn't a robot... it isn't anyway but whatever 😅

Tiny Benthomaar mention, I hope shark baby is doing okay 🥰🥰

KAI IS A TEACHER 😍😍 Honestly he's still my fave, even though the focus is clearly over Jay's situation and how he loves Nya, WHICH I LOVE, but my flame babe used to be so loving in the past seasons I feel like he's less now 😢

LLOYD ACTUALLY ALMOST MADE ME TEAR UP THE POOR BABY

Whoa it's been a year already?!? DANG!

Poor Jay Jay, of course he would break down like that... and be extremely dramatic while at it, because the glasses and the paintings and the FAKE BEARD 😂 We sacrificed mechanic Jay but we kept his drama queen side

The lanterns are beautiful 😢😢

THE CALL OF HOME

NEW REMIX AND IT'S AWESOME 🤩🤩

OMG this part is absolutely beautiful, you can feel how Nya truly doesn't remember but a part of her wishes to put the pieces together

Top voice acting Kelly, since last season it just keeps getting better 😎

NYA MY GIRL IS BACK I KNEW IT 😍😍😍

NYA REMEMBERS SKYBOUND 🤯 Against popular opinion it's actually one of my favorite seasons so I'm happy, also a reminder of the old designs is always nostalgic 💕

Nyad looks nice, it's sad that she doesn't remember her old life anymore. How the world move on, how her family and friends are likely no more, how the masters of water are moving forward without her...

THE SHAPE OF NYA

Alright I see what you did there 😂

Okay cool and all that they say that Nya was the glue and they weren't a team before... except they kinda were 😅 Alright I'm getting too caught up over this, I know the sense, whatever but still don't you forget the origins

As always the ninja get out of practice when a member get lost, which makes sense honestly but still after 15 seasons it gets a bit old...

NINJA, NINJA EVERYWHERE!

"How did you they do it so quickly?" You used to be quicker honey 😅

... okay I don't like the new ninja anymore

Nah, wait, maybe they need a couple of season themselves to go through all lessons and crap in order to be pure and everything... only to end up breaking the law apparently 😂

So the main villain is Harumi right? The spoilers where everywhere so no surprise there

I just... hope it will make sense? It felt like Harumi's arc was over or at least it had ended with her learning something from that scene of the building? Now she's back at it again? I don't know, I guess we'll ser

THE GIRLS KAI AND JAY ARE FIGHTING

Whoa, I didn't expect Jay to throw the first kick honestly, dang he got more reckless than I remember him being...

NYA IS HERE!

NYA IS FROZEN! SOMEONE MAKE A PUN!

Oh. Oh no no no not Aspheera 😱

Oh come on is this why you're gonna get arrested?? Guuuuyyysss this is the Fire Chapter all over agaaaaiiinnn where you gooo purposely looking for troubleeeee 😖😖😖

Isn't vengestone enough? Make a cute armor of vengestone for her? I I don't know 😅

Wait we're gonna ignore the fight? I doubt Kai and Jay are back full good terms right away... or maybe we're ignoring this in favor of the plot 😅

A MAYOR PROBLEM

Hi mayor, are you a bad guy too?

I mean, yeah that was sarcasm, but they also DID protect the city? It got damage yeah, did you prefer have it conquered or destroyed? I get his motivation but honestly there is like zero gratefulness over here 😅

I liked the unnamed old mayor better lol

I'm with Wu here, this is a massive bad idea

SKYLOOOOORRR 😍😍😍😍😍😍 QUEENS RETURNING LEFT AND RIGHT

I can't tell if I like emotionless Zane or not, he's funny and all but also I miss him being quirky and adorably clueless 😚

Jay was blabbering again! That's comforting actually 😂😂

THIS IS A BAD IDEA

YEP YEP YEP LOOKING BAD

I missed Jay and Cole going together on a mission just the two of them 🖤💙🖤💙

SKY AND PIX HOLD ON

PUBLIC ENEMY NUMBER 1, 2, 3, 4 AND 5!

The mayor's cat is so weird 😂😂

New new ninja lol

Not creative enough for you? Black is kinda the only color that makes sense to warriors that work in the shadows 🤣

THIS. IS. A. BAD. IDEA.

Pixal surely can ask her father to steal a staff 😂😂, "Oh nice to know she is making new experiences!"

"When things don't make sense I just ignore them." That's kinda Kai actually ❤

T H I S I S A B A D I D E A

Okay this is reckless even for them, and highly illegal, so while prison sounds a bit much I do understand the reason why this ended the way it did for the guys (judging by the trailer)

Old timers aren't that bad huh 🙃

OKINO HI 😀😀

WEEKEND WHIP YAS 😃😃😃😃

Ships have been flying in Ninjago for years, why not trucks? 😂

Yep, enemies confirmed, and for kind of a good reason this time 😅 Sorry guys, this time you kinda looked for it... BUT FOR OUR GODDESS NYA THIS AND MORE 😭😭😭

A PAINFUL PROMISE

PAINFUL PROMISE?? NO PAINFUL! WHY PAINFUL??? NOOOOOO-

The Golden Weapons 😍

Aspheera makes origami lol

"Don't make me a villain! I didn't make fire snakes fall from the sky and I surely didn't try to kill your pupils! YOU BETRAYED ME THAT ONE TIME WHEN YOU WERE A KID!"

WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THESE CHALLENGES I'M DYING 😂😂😂

Wuser... I kinda like that one lol

Of course it's not gonna be that easy, or course it's gonna be like that...

NO NO NO NO NO WE'RE SO CLOSE GO AWAY FREAKING NEW NINJA DON'T INTERRUPT THE AWAKENING OF THE QUEEN DON'T-

Lol they do have a catchphase of just three syllables, NINJAGOOO 😂

Fighting fighting fighting

MY GIRL IS BAAAAAAACK 🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩

Alright I do like that what happened in the Fire Chapter comes back here and is used, the power draining staff, nice

Lloyd is such a good boy 💚 He likely made a mistake but he's honest at least

And now they are giving themselves in because they do what's right not matter what, and they don't even care because Nya is okay and that's all that matters and I LOVE MY BOYS SO FREAKING MUCH 😍😍😍

The council of the Crystal King huh? Hi Harumi how're you doing 😅

Or Garmadon? I doubt it though

NINJAGO CITY VS NINJA

Aaaaallllright, are we having a trial of some sort over here? Because the guys messed up pretty bad but they seriously put the heroes of the land in prison for one mistake THAT STILL brought back another one of those heroes?

Not gonna lie though it's a pretty complicated situation law speaking

DARETH! 🤎🤎🤎

Wow he actually somehow went to law school? Good for you, right before learning to speak to the fishes 😂😂

Hey Antonia and Nelson are there! 🤩

Okay the judge kinda took into account them being the saviors of it all... and put them where they got all of their old friends 😅 I guess they could spend some social work time being prison guards as well

Zane is that meme of letting everything out during yoga lesson 😂

Aww Lloyd believes in Dareth 🤎

OMG IS THIS WHY WE GOT A SAMURAI X IN THE TRAILER??? IS NYA COMING BACK AS SAMURAI X??? THAT'S AMAZING BUT ALSO WHAT ABOUT PIXAL??? OMG OMG OMG

Ronin! Your hair are so shiny 😅😅 Aaaand he's a bad guy again, which is not a given considering that he did help before 😅

Aww the officer is kinda nice

Whoops a visitor... hi Harumi 🙂

If that's a Harumi then didn't you already watched Lloyd's face as you took everything from him? Back in Sons of Garmadon? Wait she's not the crystal king? Is she putting Garmy on top again or something?

Lol Lloyd reminding us all that he's the best ninja of Ninjago still! Look at him go! SHOW THEM BABY GO GO GO!

(he's making it worse but looking great while at it go sweetie 💚)

Oh, Vanya's dad again... who cares where's best girl Vanya 💛💛💛

KRYPTARIUM PRISON BLUES

Pff please someone gives Skylor civilian clothes! I love her ninja suit but she deserves a bit of something else 😅 Also for Sky being back there so little Kailor? I wonder if we're gonna get some later, been a while 🧡❤🧡❤

Aww little Jay and Kai moment, this is what I like! I forgive you for the fight 💙❤💙❤

Nya is having a tough time huh 😢

The prison cake is a lie 🤯🤯🤯

Yep, Kai throwing the first tray during the fight, this is more like him 😂

PIXAL AND NYA BUILDING SOMETHING TOGETHER!! THE TWO SAMURAI AT IT FOR THE FUTURE!! So we're getting two samurai now? ... EXCELLENT 🤩🤩

It's kind of hilarious that Kai might have the potential of becoming a criminal if he wasn't such a believer of justice 😂

It might be interesting seeing Pythor in action again, been a while since the big serpentine era and he's supposed to descend from the strongest tribe of them. Give me something good you old timer 😉😉

Making it guys worse, making it much worse...

This season is literally a Murphy Law spiral, the poor ninja 😅😅

GROUNDHOG MCBRAG

Well this is a fascinating name

FUGIDOVE!!! Finally facing his nemesis! Jay don't fight the rivalry, you are Perry the Platypus and he's your Doof 😂

Pff hi Dareth 🤎

NYA IS HERE 😍😍😍😍😍

SAMURAI X IS HERE 😍😍😍 I missed seeing her in a suit, I love her as master of water but I've known her like this first 💕💕

Yep, this is why the past mayor never showed up, too much chaos in one day 😅

I LOVE THAT LITTLE SHIP GAG WITH THE COMMISSIONER OFFICER 😂😂😂 It makes me laugh so much

Fugidove is here too?? Lol I kinda love this development, he's hilarious

Fugidove and Jaybird, the amazing pair... oh someone is so going to ship them, i can feel it, you even got free pet names for the ride! 💙💙💙 Yep I can see it

LEGO SWEAT LOL

Twitchy is coming back? There are some weird comebacks this season 😂

Who is this McBrag guy 😅😅

NO DON'T SPLIT UP. NEVER SPLIT UP.

THE BENEFIT OF GRIEF

The Benefit of Grief? Well that's a very interesting title, and with Zane's voice, I'm kinda curious honestly!

HUMAN ZANE BEING A WHILE! 🤍

Who is this cutie? She looks adorable!

Sally, aww! I like this song, it's such a lovely tune! I like her already!

LOVE SUPPORTING NINJA! 🤍❤🤍❤

Oh Sally ran away from home? We got a bit of a side character backstory, that's nice, like with Nelson and Antonia with the past! It's always nice to see Ninjago civilians! 💕

Whoa she's intense!

Whoa the dude is intense too!

OH DEAR LORD THEY JUST FELL

OH DEAR LORD HE JUMPED IN TOO

Who is this guy? Why is he here? Where was he in the past 15 seasons? Why cool civilians appear only against the ninja 😅

Sally you got a bit of turbolent emotions over here, you need help maybe

ZANE HELP

ZANE HELPED 🤍 ALSO HE MENTIONED DR JULIEN THAT'S ALWAYS NICE

ZANE IS BACK BEING LOVELY 😍😍

THE FIFTH VILLAIN

Whoa already at episode 11? There are 12 so far? Probably more? So far it's a pretty good season I would say! Pretty intense too! If they are gathering all villains then there gotta be more episodes to come

Pff Fugidove is blabbering like Jay does with everyone, this is karma

FUGIDOVE AND BLUEJAY!! 💙💙💙 I LOVE THIS PROBABLY MORE THAN I SHOULD I DON'T EVEN KNOW

A Crystal Council? Like the League of Doom? That might actually be interesting

Twitchy! Been a while! Not the best season but still I like the guy!

The Mechanic did some stuff in the past but was still a bit of a servant in comparison to Unagami, kinda like Clouse 😅

Poor Twitchy...

Did Fugidove just save Jaybird? DID FUGIDOVE JUST SAVE THE NINJA?? ... is Fugidove gonna be the one switching sides? Because that was pretty freaking cool of him 😊😊

Spinjitzu used to be such a strong power, now everything can counter it... kinda sad 😅

NO NO NO DON'T LEAVE LLOYD ALONE-

That was actually a good impression of the Mechanic not gonna lie 😂 Alright Lloydy let's see where this goes, twelth episode!

THE COUNCIL OF THE CRYSTAL KING

I'M SCARED

Always the track for noodles! Skylor must be loaded by now 😂

"Jay was right?" Gotta happen sometimes

DANG IT JAY AND COLE YOU HAD ONE JOB! Sometimes they make the perfect combo while sometimes they have one brain cell in two and neither of them is keeping it 😅

GUYS DON'T LEAVE LLOYD ALONE PLEASE IT'S NEVER GOOD WHEN HE'S ALONE 😱😱

You guys really have to train a bit after this

NO NO NO NO WHERE'S LLOYD 😱😱😱😱

MR. E?!?!?!??!?! ARE WE DOING THE ECHO ZANE THING RIGHT ABOUT NOW???

Not wait rebuilt? I guess not then?

An impostor

Among

... WE ALL THOUGHT ABOUT IT DON'T LIE THE SOUND IS IN YOUR HEAD 😂

Is the Crystal King the Overlord maybe? That would kinda make sense but why right now? Is there a reason for it?

Lloyd really just did the "what's that" prank

Hey the Spinjitzu does work!!

Oh never mind

IT IS HARUMIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱 ... I mean we knew, but DANG that freaking creepy song really got to me right now 😅

Still, really? I thought she had a bit of realization that by doing bad you're gonna hurt others like you were hurt too, so what is this?

Well guess this is it...

... WHY IT'S ALWAYS LLOYD THE ONE GETTING TRAPPED 😭😭😭😭

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mishasminions · 4 years

Text

The Last Time I’ll Write a Long Post About Supernatural (15x18-15x20)

15 YEARS OF WATCHING THIS SHOW. 11 YEARS OF RUNNING A BLOG ABOUT IT. IT’S BEEN QUITE A RIDE.

[15x20 Speculation + evidence at the bottom]

First off, I just wanna come clean and say, after all these years, I still think they should’ve ended at Season 5.

If you’re going to come at me with “Then why’d you stick around to watch it if you didn’t like it?”, your question is immature, and the answer is simple: I just want to know what happens next (I also love the main characters and their actors too). You can watch a show and still think it’s shit.

Call me a clown, but despite all the disappointment and trust issues that this show has given me, I would still look forward to the day where it might just turn itself around and bring back the quality it once had, or realize the potential of each story it was trying to tell, or at the very least, do justice by my favorite ship.

Never happened.

They’ve had a few good episodes here and there. I can’t imagine the SPN Universe without The Man Who Would Be King, The French Mistake, and Scoobynatural. Seasons 6-10 were enjoyable at times. I blocked out most of 7 & 11-15.

If you’ve been following this blog since its heydays in 2010-2014, you’d know I’d try my best to defend Destiel and this show’s decisions regarding it no matter what.

Because you know what, as a CONCEPT, this show is good. If you take a look at all the worlds its storylines have birthed in fanfiction/fanworks, you’d see how much Supernatural has wasted its own story arcs. The writing got shittier as each season progressed, and they’ve obviously given up in production as well because the quality in the execution has noticeably gone down too, but if you take a step back and take a look at the bigger picture, you’ll see that this show still tries to make sense of itself.

[If you’re still following this post, please bear with me, I know this is long, but I just want you to understand how jaded and pessimistic I am with regards to this show, so maybe you can buy into whatever hopeful thing I’m about to say later on.]

SO LET’S TALK ABOUT DESTIEL

Never in my wildest dreams did I think that they would give us Castiel’s “I love you” speech. To the point where, if I weren’t so desperate for it, I would argue that it was completely out of character for him to word vomit the way he did (but I’m not gonna diss on that right now because I’ll take what I can get).

I’ve valued every meaningful and obscure exchange that Dean and Cas have had in the earlier seasons, and I was willing to accept their relationship as just that--undefined, without any clear boundaries as to what they really are. And I think that was beautiful on its own.

But now, they’ve chosen to define it.

After they’ve driven every possible wedge between Dean and Castiel in seasons 11-15, to try to explain away their feelings as something they offer to a collective.

Dean can’t mourn and pray for JUST Cas, he has to mourn and pray for EVERYBODY--even Crowley, even some chick he just met, because god forbid he cries about just the guy who has given up everything for him--that would be “too homo”.

They’ve even set Cas on a path to abrupt fatherhood just so he can care about something other than Dean. Make it seem as if Dean wasn’t his purpose through and through.

And after all these years of this stupid show trying to deny it, they choose to acknowledge it at the worst possible circumstance, at a time where they’ve been so far apart, that it seems so foreign for them to suddenly come together.

But here we are. And they’ve chosen to tell us.

Chosen to tell us that everything that Castiel has done leading up to his death, he has done it because he was IN LOVE WITH DEAN WINCHESTER.

Chosen to tell us that the ONE THING THAT WOULD MAKE CAS HAPPY IS DEAN WINCHESTER.

Chosen to tell us that BEING WITH DEAN WINCHESTER is something that CAS WANTS BUT KNOWS HE CAN’T HAVE.

And they’ve also chosen to tell us nothing about how Dean feels.

Sure, finding out your angel made a deal, the stipulations of said deal, his newfound happiness philosophy, his long-winded monologue of why he loves you and why you’re worthy of his love, and to top it all off he tells you that being in love with you is enough to make him happy while he subtly hints that he’s always wanted to be WITH you romantically, was a lot to process in the 5 minutes after you’ve just had an existential crisis.

It’s whatever, right? Let’s culminate 11 years worth of tension and feelings in 5 minutes. Let’s waste the entire episode with cringey expository dialogue, and irrelevant sequences. The whole season was a waste anyway.

You know what Supernatural? FUCK YOU FOR THAT. They deserved better. WE deserve better.

And I would love nothing more than to hurl every possible insult your way,

But for the last time, I’m going to HOPE that you’re finally going to try to make it better for the fans that stuck by you all these years.

No more baiting new viewers, no more placating casual viewers, no more excuses. 15 years. Bring it home for the people who have actually been around.

SO HERE’S HOW I THINK 15x20 IS GONNA GO

There’s two ways this series is gonna end. Horribly or Spectacularly.

First let’s all take into consideration what Andrew Dabb says about it:

So, let’s start with

ENDING HORRIBLY

In this scenario, Misha is telling the truth about his last day of filming being 15x18. His “camping trip” during the last few days of filming 15x20, was actually a camping trip. He doesn’t go to Vancouver to shoot.

Jensen wasn’t “being careful” during the zoom interviews that it was just him and Jared quarantining for the shoot, it really was just him and Jared (althought most of these were done pre 15x19) Supernatural isn’t smart enough to do misleading PR, and they’re once again oblivious to the potential of their own story.

Misha hasn’t posted a “Goodbye Castiel” tweet because he’s probably saving it for last episode or he forgot because it was overshadowed by the Destiel trend that night.

So what we get is:

Sam and Dean are on the road again, up against the monster of the week. Only their world no longer has actual Supernatural beings anymore, so the monsters they’re fighting are humans.

Humans end up killing the Winchesters (despite having gone up against literally every powerful being imaginable INCLUDING God himself). Dean and Sam end up in heaven and relive their greatest hits.

Meanwhile, Castiel rots in The Empty because he died after realizing that he was happy and gay. Jack doesn’t bother rescuing him—his surrogate dad, the guy who made this specific deal to spare him—even though it was so easy for him get Cas in and out of The Empty when he had a fraction of the power that he has now.

Dean never speaks of Castiel’s confession because despite all the hints of a profound bond in the earlier seasons, and the fact that Dean has never cared for anyone (who isn’t his actual brother) as immensely as he does Cas, Supernatural just can’t have its main macho character be “suddenly bisexual” because that would hurt the male ego or some shit.

His heaven would probably be living happily ever after with his family. “Family” meaning Mary and John Winchester--two of the shittiest parents ever (but they’re not going to include them in this episode like they were supposed to because of Covid) and Sam.

Sam also gets a dog. As usual.

I wouldn’t put it past Supernatural to do this. After everything they’ve pulled, this would be right up their alley. I actually expect this ending.

Anyway, onto the next possible ending

ENDING SPECTACULARLY

In this scenario, Supernatural tries to stick the landing, and Jensen’s whole “It didn’t sit well with me at first, but then I took a step back after talking to Kripke, and realized that I had to view it from an audience perspective, I am now really excited about it” (DC Con 2019) anecdote about his thoughts on the final episodes, were actually about Dean potentially ending up with Cas. (Which would totally make sense because Jensen at first didn’t see Dean as anything but hetero, but as of late, he has been throwing in Destiel jokes of his own, so he seems to have warmed up to the idea)

Backed with Misha’s tidbit (DLConline 2020) that he and Jensen had conversations about Destiel, and that they wouldn’t have gone through with it if Jensen wasn’t onboard with it, but Jensen didn’t push back at all. (Why would they need to check with Jensen if it was just Cas going all in?)

Robert Berens (writer of 15x18) also wrote the script at the beginning of Season 15, but made Misha privy to the concept a year prior (Season 14), so they went into this season knowing about Destiel going canon.

This one’s a reach, but this scenario also supposes that Misha was lying about his whereabouts during the filming of the final episode, and him saying that 15x18 was his last episode is part of the diversion to avoid taking away from the weight of Castiel’s death.

And that Supernatural is actually self-aware of its own material (similar to how they have wrapped things up in the past—lots of expository dialogue, poor execution, but fulfills the story arc)

Since Season 15 is basically a Meta Season (Chuck/God as a writer, pretentiously calling out how he created the worlds, its characters, and basically invalidating the past 14 seasons), and 15x19 is supposedly the finale for Season 15, written by two of the worst Supernatural writers, Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Leming (Bob Singer’s wife), then we can assume that 15x19 is where the shitty writers kill themselves--as Chuck, of course.

So we get a badly written episode that produces a bad ending, or as Becky put it, “All action, and no Cas”

So we get the bad writers season ending at 15x19.

And 15x20 is where Sam and Dean write their own stories, and where the cast had a hand in pitching ideas for it.

Dabb has mentioned that 15x20 (Act Two) is a SERIES finale, where they try to resolve the characters’ journeys.

Because as everyone has acknowledged, Supernatural isn’t about the story, it’s about the characters.

So here’s what we can get out of it:

With no more Supernatural beings left to fight, Sam and Dean are in a stalemate. They’ve resigned themselves to fighting to the bitter end, but the “end” has passed, and they’re still standing.

So they try to figure out who they are now, and what they want out of the life they still have.

Sam still wants a normal apple pie life. Before Dean dragged him out of college to go hunting with him, he had a whole life planned out for him. Become a lawyer, settle down with a nice girl, and get a dog. He gave all that up because they had work to do, but now the work is finished, he can finally go back to wanting that for himself again.

Dean finally realizes his self-worth after Cas saves him again. His prayer to Cas in purgatory may have helped him come to terms with his anger, but the whole “you’ve done everything you did for love” speech finally put him in his place, and he learns not to hate himself anymore.

But of course, he cannot fully reconcile with himself if he doesn’t get Cas back, and tell him how he feels.

Because Dean actually wants something for himself this time. Something he knows he can finally have if he can just salvage it.

So maybe this time around, with the help of Jack (off-screen), Dean saves Cas. Grips him tight and raises him from perdition.

They bypass The Empty deal by turning Cas human, and he lives the rest of his days with Dean.

Dean and Cas know they deserve to be saved, and they know that they deserve to be happy.

(Wishful thinking, maybe they kiss a little)

Anyway...

I’m just saying, there’s NO WAY that they’d have Cas go through that whole rushed speech, if they weren’t going to do anything about it later on.

But again, after 10 years of disappointment, I wouldn’t put it past Supernatural to pat themselves on the back and say, “Okay, we sort of gave them what they wanted. We’re good now”

If that’s the case, Supernatural, I’m sorry I wasted my time on you.

Here’s to hoping 🤡

#THE LAST TIME I'LL CLOWN FOR THIS SHOW #SUPERNATURAL #DESTIEL #15x20 #15x19 #15x18 #UNTAGGED #INSIGHTFUL INSIGHTS

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marvelcriminalhoe · 2 years

Text

Paper Rings

Aaron Hotchner x Female Reader

Chapter 8

Valentines Day

i.e. Season 9 Episode 15

TW: typical criminal minds case jargon

AN: I had a hard time writing this chapter ??? Idk, I kept rewriting it. Feels pretty boring to be frank. Hope you enjoy :) (promise next chapter will be more entertaining)

Word Count: 1,395

Series Masterlist

“Okay my crime fighting super pals, What are everyones plans for this upcoming day of love?” Garcia asks, walking into the bullpen where you and the rest of the team, minus Rossi and Hotch, sit at you desks completing preliminary profiles and consults.

Morgan is the first one to entertain her idea of a fun conversation, leaning back in his chair and sending her his famous smirk, “I was thinking about a little candlelit dinner at Le Donkle’s overlooking the Potomac.”

“Ohh…” Garcia eats it up with a huge sigh, “That is romantic.”

“I will be going to this new exposé about the transforming of medicine through artificial intelligence and the reverse of disease if anyone wants to tag along.” Reid looks around at the desks.

“I’ll pass.” JJ nods, “I will be spending a well deserved night in with my boys.”

Blake chooses not to entertain the discussion, continuing to do her work, which is when Penelope Garcia puts her target eyes on you, “And what about my favorite young superhero?”

Reid’s comment about how he thought he was her favorite young super hero, gets ignored by the blonde as her eyes don’t leave you, awaiting your answer.

“I will be eating takeout and watching old law and order episodes on Netflix.” You tell her simply, not wanting to give way to the fact you've been casually seeing your boss for the past two months. You don’t think anyone has caught on, besides Rossi, but he doesn't know you've actually been dating, just that there is mutual feelings on both sides.

“Ugh.” She scrunches up her nose at you in a very playful way, “I do not understand how you can watch those shows. Don’t you get enough of it in our daily lives?”

You shrug at her, “I like being able to solve the case before the characters.”

“Don’t you already know how the cases end if you've seen the episodes already, especially with that brain of yours?” Morgan questions, eyebrows furrowed.

“Not the point.” You reply with a shake of your head, laughing when everyone else does.

A short time later, the team gets called into the round table, and all the talk for the upcoming weekend gets put to a hold. Garcia stands by the screen, giving the team the case details, “Pittsburgh field office has reported two murders in the past 48 hours.”

“Both of them were strangled, then stripped down to their underwear, and then dumped off of a highway.” Aaron picks up where Garcia stops, the crime scene photos on the screen for everyone to see.

You look over to Aaron, “Have the victims been ID’d?”

“No,” He shakes his head, “Not yet.”

“The guy has a lot of rage.” Rossi comments, studying the photos. “He’s using some kind of ligature, maybe a strap?”

Derek stands from his chair, choosing to pace as he reads the file in his hands, “It looks like he’s choking them intermittently, allowing them to breathe only when he permits it.”

“But the M.E. report says neither was sexually assaulted.” Aaron details.

Reid’s eyebrows furrow, “That’s odd given the fact that 80% of crimes against women involve some sort of sexual component.”

“He probably gets off on the chocking.” You theorize, “Some sort of erratic asphyxiation filtered through a psychopath’s need for power and control.”

“Ok, what is this?” JJ asks, “Are they wrapped in shower curtains?”

Garcia grimaces, “Strangely, yes. Which is why I'm checking with a number of manufacturers to see where these were distributed from.”

“The M.O. says sexual sadist but the curtain reads remorse.” Blake states, head tilted to the side.

“Which either points to symbolic or literal emasculation, we need to find out.” Aaron closes his case files, standing up, “Wheels up in 30.”

You’re in the break room at the local police station, grabbing another cup of extremely watered down coffee. You lost count on the number of cups you've had so far about an hour ago, but you know it’s probably way past your normal amount.

Putting the glass pot back in its spot, another hand reaches out to stop you, grazing your hand as they do. There’s a small electric feeling that shoots up your arm, and you're aware of who the hand belongs to before looking, just by that bodily reaction of yours.

You turn your head, making eye contact with your boss. He raises an eyebrow at you, tiny smirk on his lips, “I think you might have more of an addiction to coffee than Reid.”

You scoff, small smile playing on your lips, “Please, no one has a bigger dependency than him.”

An actual smile finds its way onto his face at that, as he shakes his head, filling up his own cup with the discount, dollar tree brand of caffeine. He studies you for a moment as he takes a sip, you pretend not to notice, looking out at the chaos that ensues the station of a small town with a serial partnership wrecking havoc in it.

Aaron clears his throat, drawing your eyes back to the handsome man beside you, “I know we haven't really talked about valentines day.” His voice is low, not wanting to draw too much attention to what is being discussed, “But I would really like to spend it with you.” He studies your face for a moment, “If that’s something you would like as well.”

“Yeah.” You smile, “I’d like that.”

“Good.” Aaron whispers with a brief glance down to your lips. You find yourself doing the same, a magnetic pull bringing you closer to him, minds forgetting about where you were for a fleeting second.

But the moment gets effectively ruined by Reid walking in, heading straight to the coffee machine between you and Aaron. Aaron clears his throat, sends you one more genuine look that the curly haired boy beside you is too busy guzzling his coffee to notice, and walks out of the room, leaving you to watch him.

Valentines day has never been something you've ever celebrated. Granted, you've never had a reason to. You honestly would have pegged Aaron to be the same way, choosing to treat it as just another day of the year. But if Aaron Hotchner is good at anything, its surprising you, over and over again.

After that case wrapped up in pittsburgh, the team was free to enjoy their weekend and planned activities for the holiday of love and relationships. Aaron picked you up from your apartment at 6 o’clock with a bouquet of flowers in his hand, a tradition he’s kept up with for each date.

You like that. That he gives you flowers.

Dinner was at a beautiful, Rossi approved, Italian restaurant. It was a good date, with good company, much like your past dates. Except, unlike your past ones, you invited him inside when he dropped you off at your door. You watch as he observes your apartment. He’s never actually been inside, always picking you up at the door. You usually spend your time together at his.

His eyes seem to focus on one of the pictures you have hanging on your small gallery wall, it’s your high school graduation. You have a big smile on your face, your eyes crinkling because of it. You’re standing in-between your parents, the gradation gown practically swallowing your preteen self whole.

Aaron looks back over to you, “You haven't changed much.”

“What?” You scoff, “I’ve changed plenty.”

Aaron just shakes his head, “You still smile like that when you're really happy about something.”

“No I don’t.” You scrunch your nose up at him.

He nods his head, pulling you into him by your waist, “You do.”

You don’t have time to say anything as his lips hit yours in a warm and gentle kiss. You loose yourself in it. Kissing Aaron Hotchner is something you won’t ever get enough of. You smile into the kiss and Aaron pulls back to look at you, he laughs a little, causing you to ask whats so funny to him.

“You’re smiling the same as you are in that picture.” He laughs.

You groan again, pushing away from him, “You’re the worst.” But you don’t get very far, getting pulled right back into him.

And you go willingly.

You’ll always go willingly to Aaron Hotchner

*******

taglist: @buckyswintersoldiermask @ssahotchnerxx @bestillmystuckyheart @eternal-silvertongued-prince @honeyofthegods @pitchblackstars @averyhotchner @hotched @mintphoenix @natasharomanoff1984-blog @avatarkanemi

#aaron hotchner fanfic #aaron hotchner x reader #aaron hotchner fanfiction #bau reader #aaron hotch x reader #aaron hotchner #criminal minds #criminal minds fanfiction #aaron hotchner x you #aaron hotchner x reader series #aaron hotchner x reader story #aaron hotchner x female reader #hotch x you #aaron hotchner fluff #aaron hotchner angst

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chaoticdean · 4 years

Text

Supernatural and the topic of found family — family don’t end in blood… or does it?

I know I’ve talked a great deal about the way the complete erasure of both Cas and Eileen from the two final episodes of SPN made my blood boil, but after careful consideration and a lot of talking with several very clever people (you know who you are), I think what hurt me the most on top of it all is the way Supernatural decided to essentially throw away an entire section of what made the show what it was for the best part of the last decade and a half: the topic of found family, and how they’ve carefully crafted so many important side characters and relationships only to throw them all away for the sake of having one last episode essentially disconnected from the rest of the story.

[Because I’ve talked about in great length over the course of the past week and a half, and although there are undoubtedly more issues with Supernatural’s series finale than just this (ie: the Destiel treatment and the queer erasure, along with the complete erasure of Eileen, the only disabled character this show has ever known), I’m going to concentrate solely on the treatment of found family, and why its erasure from the finale storyline is deeply upsetting on top of being utterly inexplicable. If you want to read an incredible article about this, I’d redirect you to @chill-legilimens article’s, The Trauma of Silence]

When Supernatural started airing in 2005, the show essentially focused on Sam and Dean and their relationship, with a dash of John Winchester and mending the broken pieces between a father and his sons into the mix. The first side character that gets introduced to the audience as some sort of surrogate father to both Winchesters is Bobby (1x22, Devil’s Trap), and he quickly became a fan favorite to the fandom. Interestingly enough, Bobby is also the one who comes up with the “Family don’t end with blood” line (if I’m not mistaken, the first time it’s said on the show is during 3x16, No Rest for the Wicked). Once this line gets said, it quickly became more than just a slogan within the fandom, and it’s often referenced as a motto for the show as well (Dean even uses it during his talk with Crowley in season 10 to explain what family means).

Over the years, so many characters got introduced and became fan favorites (off the top of my head, I can come up with half a dozen already) and have grown within the show, to the point where they’re introduced to the audience as some sort of found family to both Dean and Sam. The boys get invited to Jody Mills’ and her wayward daughter’s house for dinner, spend what can only be qualified as a slumber party watching Game of Thrones with Charlie Bradbury in the bunker, keep running around and bickering with Crowley, spends time in the bunker with Eileen (the margaritas and Sam and Eileen being hungover the morning after in the bunker’s kitchen lives rent-free in my head). Even the Ghostfacers keep popping in almost every season for a decade. The audience gets to learn who these characters are and connect with them on several levels, most of them also becoming fan favorites over time.

But if I had to pick only one side character to make a point, Castiel is undoubtedly the one that comes to mind first.

When Misha Collins came along during season 4, he was only supposed to be in for a couple of episodes and be done with it. But because of his masterful performance (and because the character of Anna, who gets introduced around the same time as Castiel, doesn’t seem to work as well as the writers thought it would), Misha stayed along for the whole ride, and ended his run on Supernatural 12 years and 144 episodes later, with a character that is so beloved by the fandom that it elevated him to the rank of third lead. Castiel is not only an angel of the Lord, he’s also Sam and Dean’s best friend who would do anything to protect them (and, well, has done so, multiple times). He’s grown within the show to the point where the audience directly refers to him as being one of the family, even though he’s not blood, because “Family don’t end with blood” after all.

Another example that is particularly telling over the course of the last couple of seasons is the treatment of Jack’s character, who’s quickly adopted by the boys and referred to as “their kid”, the three of them acting like surrogate dads even though in the end, Jack is Lucifer’s son. Once again, the show makes a point of showing the audience that although Jack is not related to Sam and Dean in any way (I’m guessing since Lucifer is basically Castiel’s brother, he is somewhat related to Cas, but since I don’t have a degree in angel DNA, I can’t 100% be sure), he’s still family, he still matters.

The story basically tells the audience that even though you might not have a blood-related family, that doesn’t prevent you to find people along your life’s journey that becomes intrinsically connected to your story, both on a deeply emotional and practical level. It tells you that you’re not required to have a blood family to be someone’s kid, or sister, or brother. It tells you that blood doesn’t define who you choose to share your life with, and most importantly, it tells you that you’re allowed to choose.

So why on Earth did anyone think that ending Supernatural’s 15-year run with an episode that essentially showcases Sam and Dean and sidelines the wide majority of the family they found along the way (with the exception of OG Bobby showing up in Heaven) was a good idea?

Don’t get me wrong, I love Bobby, I really do… But what was the excuse for not having either Misha back (the literal third lead of the show, who confessed to being in love with Dean, the second lead of the show, two episodes prior), or Alex (Jack being one of the main focus of the past two seasons at least)? I get that Covid made all of this difficult, but you can’t tell me you’ve been able to bring back Mark Pellegrino’s Lucifer for a two minutes and a half cameo in 15x19, but not Misha fucking Collins to end his character’s arc (and Dean’s, who’s arc is deeply wired with Castiel’s) after 12 years.

I’m gonna say it again, because I feel like it’s been used as an excuse for everything ever since the finale aired: Covid cannot be the sole excuse for everything. It cannot account for the absence of literally EVERYONE around the Winchesters.

At that point, I should probably add that although I was incredible baffled by the one-off mention of Cas (well, two, if you count Sam saying he misses him and Dean deflecting during the Pie Fest at the beginning of the episode), what probably set me off the most is the part of Dean’s death speech where he says “when it all came down to it, it was always you and me, it’s always been you and me”.

I’m sorry Dean, you know I love you to pieces, but what the actual fuck was that? What does it even mean? That single line essentially strips away any kind of meaningful contribution of any side characters… Including Castiel “always happy to bleed for the Winchesters”’s, and Jack’s who quite literally saved the whole world ONE EPISODE PRIOR.

Not to mention that the fact we don’t get to see Cas again leave Dean’s entire character’s arc incomplete. What was the point of season 15, which focused so deeply on Dean and Cas’ relationship, if in the end the entire character’s arc gets dropped?

So what’s the message being sent here?

“Found family was a myth, it’s always been sorely about the Winchesters”?

“Ha! Tricked ya!”?

Why did Supernatural, after a decade and a half spent consolidating the contribution of side characters, decided to essentially throw it all away?

Why did Supernatural, after a decade spent crafting meaningful relationships within the show, decided to light it all up on fire and end its run with an episode that basically tells the audience that none of it really mattered, it’s always been sorely about Dean and Sam.

I would’ve been fine with a Sam and Dean episode if Castiel had more than a one-off mention, if they didn’t give Sam a blurry wife, if Dean had the funeral he deserved (with a rock band, whisky, and all the fellow hunters and family he found along the way), if Sam didn’t spend the rest of his life mourning his brother. I would’ve been fine with only getting Jim Beaver on screen (because Covid) if we had been given something more than just Dean driving for his last 5 minutes on screen. It would have been FINE, if Supernatural hadn’t essentially forgotten about what made Supernatural, well, Supernatural.

Long story short, I feel tricked. And I know a lot of you feel tricked too, because this isn’t what we’ve been fed for the past 15 years. Supernatural was a show about finding your way through life and death and horror and trauma, with help from people you found along the way who became linked to your story because you cared for each other. And Supernatural ended by telling us that found family didn’t really matter, that Dean was always going to die on a random hunt, that Sam could never be truly happy without his brother by his side. Talk about a downgrade, uh?

I don’t know why they decided to throw their entire legacy to the wind. Truth be told, I don’t think we’ll ever get to know. But that doesn’t mean I’m not going to stay pissed about it. That doesn’t mean I’m going to ever be okay with my favorite show deciding to end its run with a finale episode so deeply disconnected from their 15-year story that it felt utterly shallow.

They said “Family don’t end with blood”… But after all of this, doesn’t it, though?

#idk what this is i had a lot of feelings #spn meta #sorta #found family #spn #spn 15x20 #jus.meta

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the-conversation-pod · 10 months

Text

Summer 2023 Lagniappe

(reposting because of a Tumblr glitch that prevented reblogs)

This time we've got quite a few things to discuss, and we also have our first guest! Ben's best friend David joins us for the Season Wrap-Up conversation.

We're going to answer some questions from @ctl-yuejie and @mynameisnotthepoint.

Nini caught up on My Only 12%, Roommates of Poongduck 304, and She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat.

We unpack the eldritch horror that was The Shipper. We will not be discussing it ever again.

We discuss the execution of polyamory in Me, My Husband, and My Husband's Boyfriend.

We then hang out with David and discuss genre history, favorite actors, flops-and-trends, and award our Girl, You Tried award for this season.

Finally, we look ahead to the fall!

Listen on Apple Podcasts!

Listen on Google Podcasts!

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

0:00 - Welcome 1:15 - Intro 3:14 - Talk Nice to Us 13:11 - Catch Up Corner 13:59 - My Only 12% 22:52 - Roommates of Poongduck 304 26:14 - She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat 30:09 - The Shipper 59:46 - Next Watches 1:02:33 - Me, My Husband, and My Husband’s Boyfriend 1:15:53 - Spring Roundup 1:39:34 - Girl, You Tried 1:46:56 - Looking Ahead

The Conversation: Now With Transcripts!

We received an accessibility request to include transcripts for the podcast. We are working with @ginnymoonbeam on providing the transcripts and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

0:00 - Welcome

Nini

Ben

Lots of simping! I’m Ben.

Nini

I’m Nini.

Ben

1:15 - Intro

David

Bye, guys!

Nini

We have our first guest on the show—not for the last time, because we had so much fun with David. David's going to be back.

Ben, what are we talking about? This is the lagniappe.

Ben

We're going to answer some questions from some friends of ours—one old, one new. We're going to talk about Nini catching up when She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat, Roommates of Poongduck 304, as well as My Only 12%. Nini and I are going to stare into the abyss and scream about the eldritch horror that was The Shipper. We're gonna promise you all some things for the future. We're gonna talk about a very complicated show in Me, My Husband, and My Husband's Boyfriend. And then finally, with David’s very specific presence here, we're going to unpack the entire spring season and generally qiqi for a bit.

Nini

It's delightful. Y'all are going to have a lot of fun see see you in the episode.

3:14 - Talk Nice to Us

Ben

Nini, please take us into the questions.

3:36 - How Did We Get into QL, and How Has the Podcast Changed Us?

Nini

Ok, so the first question is from ctl-yujie, and they write, “I am curious how and why you two started watching QL, what your first impressions were, and how they might have changed over time and after starting a podcast about it?”

So, Ben, how would you answer that question?

Ben

That's why I'm here, and then I met Nini, and she was like, “I want to talk about the shows and I want to do a podcast.” And I was like, “Well let's not think about it. Let's just do it.”

Now we're here. What about you?

Nini

How about you, Ben? How have your thoughts about BL, QL, GL, and fandom changed since starting the podcast?

Ben

Like, if I know I'm not going to talk about the show with you I'm far more likely to just dismiss the show.

Nini

9:10 - How Does Criticism and Commentary Change Your Viewing Experience?

mynameisnotthepoint writes, ”How is your balance with consuming a piece of media and consuming the meta around it? Have you had it happen that the meta around it—reading up on things—completely changed your mind on a series?”

Ben, has reading meta ever changed your mind about something that you watched?

Ben

The simple answer is yes; the complex answer is no.

Nini

For me, the answer is yes sometimes my mind is changed by meta, but more often than not my thinking is expanded—not changed—by taking in meta.

Ben

Keep writing! If you listen to us, keep writing!

13:11 - Catch Up Corner

Nini

Ben

[laughs] It's true though!

Nini

So in the spring I watched She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat (in Japanese: Tsukuritai Onna to Tabetai Onna), then Roommates of Poongduck 304, and My Only 12%. Since Ben is breaking up with New this season I'm going to start with My Only 12%.

13:59 - My Only 12%

Ben

Okay I thought we were going to have fun first with, like, She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat. It's like directly into My Only 12%! “And another thing! Smack!”

Nini

We always go from worst to first, but we're ending this particular catchup with the worst because of what it is.

Ben

Man…[sighs]

Nini

I'm just gonna go with My Only 12%. We don't I think need to do like the reminder to everybody about what My Only 12% is because we've talked about it in the VIIB Awards. You all should go back and listen to that episode—I'm not exactly sure which episode it is but I will probably put it in the show description.

So. I looked at it I watched it…[Nini sighs, Ben laughs]…and��okay, I'm gonna be real real with you, okay?

Ben

Okay.

Nini

I cannot say that I liked My Only 12%. But I also cannot say that I disliked My Only 12%.

There were moments, there were moments to My Only 12% that I did like, but, like, the first two-thirds of the show I just found incredibly frustrating. I am not really a Cooheart fan as an actor. Actually, let me take that back.

Ben

Yeah, that's right, you better correct yourself.

Nini

Ben

There It is.

Nini

It felt like classic New Siwaj! It felt like New Siwaj doing Make It Right. It felt like New Siwaj in the parts of Until We Meet Again that piss me off.

So basically I didn't dislike it but I didn't like the show either. If I had to give it a score I would probably give it…a 6. It's okay.

Ben

Harsh. [laughs]

Nini

It's New Siwaj on his New Siwaj bullshit. That's gonna be a 6 for me.

Ben

Nini

Listen, New gon’ New, and I don't have to put up with it anymore.

Ben

That's honestly one of the most unexpected takeaways of this whole season for us was realizing that I don't think I like New Siwaj anymore.

Nini

I think we've talked enough about New Siwaj. We talked about New Siwaj literally the entire season. I am over him. Let's move on.

Ben

Very well.

22:52 - Roommates of Poongduck 304

Nini

The second thing that I watched—and this one I actually quite liked—I watched Roommates of Poongduck 304.

Ben

Nini

Hoo! Listen, his friends are trash, throw the friends away, throw all the friends away. My God! The other friend who is basically like in an MLM and keeps making him buy shit...

Ben

Now that was gross.

Nini

What was the name that he had for him on his phone?

Ben

I don't know, but I remember being, like, really embarrassed about it. Like, it was basically like “fool” or…

Nini

Yeah, it was something like that. It was really mean. It was basically something that implied like he was just somebody that this guy was taking advantage of.

Ben

Like it basically felt like he called him “chump” and put him in his phone as that.

Nini

26:14 - She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat

So, today of all the days, the day we're recording, we got the news that there is going to be a second season of this: She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat.

Ben

I'm so fucking relieved. [Nini laughs] I really am! I will let you talk first but my goodness am I relieved that we're getting a season 2. [Ben laughs]

Nini

And her not even realizing that that's what's happening to her: that she is becoming sexually attracted to Kasuga, and particularly to watching Kasuga eat.

Ben

And that's why I'm so fucking relieved.

Nini

It ends when they're really starting to adjust their relationship from friends to a romantic relationship.

So, there was the Utsukushii Kare sequel first, then we found out earlier that we're getting a second season of What Did You Eat Yesterday? and now She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat.

I am very glad that I took your recommendation on two-thirds of this list. [laughs]

Ben

Shade. [laughs]

Nini

On all of it. There was stuff to hold on to in My Only 12%. The totality of it just wasn't for me. So I'm glad that I watched all three of these, but of the three, my absolute favorite thing that you recommended that I watch is She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat.

30:09 - The Shipper

Nini

We've talked about the lovely fun things and now it's time to descend into hell.

Ben

Before I hand it over to Nini, I just want to say real quick, this is the first time in MDL history that I think I'll be giving a show a 1.

So, Nini, we just finished The Shipper. How are you feeling?

Nini

Ben

‘Disagreeable’ is really such an accurate term.

Nini

Ben

I feel so validated in my decision in 2020. I took one look at that show and I said ‘hell to the no’ and I wish we hadn't been curious in going back.

Nini

They say, “Curiosity killed the cat?” Well, I feel like a dead kitty right now because…What? Was? That? [sighs]

Ben

How we get there is a huge mess and by the time it finished the show read extremely homophobic and lesbophobic to Nini and myself.

Nini

Oh, throw in transphobic.

Ben

And transphobic. I'll let you take on that portion.

I'm not opposed to exploring queer grief, but I don't like the way it's done here. It feels cheap.

Nini

Ben

Nini

Ben

I hate that with all of the fires that burn in my soul, and it never really gets better from there.

Nini

Let me give you an example of a direction that the show was going in that it then undercut.

And then, they undercut it by having Pingping, like, put a hit out on Kim. It's insane.

Ben

Nini

Ben

…I deserved better than this.

Nini

Ben

Fuck. Here we go.

Nini

It's two boys kissing but it's somehow still homophobic! [laughs] It's so—oh my God.

Ben

Nini

Technically, First’s character died at the beginning of the show, and we only get to dealing with that at the end of the show. And in between, we just get a bunch of stuff…

Again all, on paper, compelling stuff. But the way that it's dealt with in the show, it just, it all feels like a bridge too far.

Ben

Nini

That's probably the best way to describe it. This show has roughly 800 convictions and the courage of none of them. It feels so dishonest intellectually. It feels…offensive. It feels…rude.

Ben

Nini

And it's presented as valedictory somehow.

Ben

Nini

Gah, listen. It's over. We've learned our lesson. We're never doing something like this again.

Ben

Nini

Ben

So it is written, so it shall be.

Nini

This is purely a writing fail. There's nothing else that I can point to that is wrong here. This is a hundred percent writing fail.

Ben

Nini

I know there are those of you out there who love it. I'm sorry. I'm not one of you, and I am not willing to discuss it at all.

Ben

I've said my piece and counted to three.

Nini

Amen, and hallelu. Moving on.

59:46 - Next Watches

Nini

So what are we going to catch up on in the summer and talk about in the fall?

Well…for me, I will finally be getting past my weird reaction to the uncanny valley effect that I get from watching the face smoothing filters on the show and I am going to watch Light On Me.

Ben

Good.

Nini

[both laugh]

Ben

Jesus Christ.

Nini

And I'm gonna talk about it when we [laughs] when we come down to the fall, so look out for that discussion in October. Ben, what are you gonna watch over the summer?

Ben

Nini

I think you're gonna enjoy Mama Gogo. It's not gay, but it feels gay?

Ben

I have watched Jojo's work. I know what you're talking about.

[both laugh]

Nini

I think you're gonna have a good time with it.

So, that's what we're gonna be catching up on over the summer and talking about in our Catch Up Corner in October. So, look out for that.

1:02:33 - Me, My Husband, and My Husband’s Boyfriend

Nini

Ben, what is this about?

Ben

Nini

Ben

It did for me!

[both laugh]

Nini

Maybe it did for the audience that they were aiming it towards, which is obviously their local audience in Japan—

Ben

And sad, gay artsy boys like me!

Nini

It's so much! They're trying to stuff so much into this show, and I'm not sure that it entirely works for me. Ben has other ideas.

Ben

Nini

Ben

Nini

Ben

I think it's implied that her desire for sex is also tied up in her notions of the kind of family they're supposed to have.

Nini

Maybe I'm getting too involved in the sex of it. Maybe that wasn't the intention.

Ben

Nini

So the idea that they're trying to get across is that this is not about sex. Polyamory is not a sex thing.

Ben

Correct.

Nini

I can accept that take, in terms of what they're trying to put in front of their audience.

Ben

Nini

Ben

Nini

Ben gives it a 9. I, on quality, give it a 9 and a half.

Ben

Oooh, look at you.

Nini

Like I said, it is a good, objectively good, show. I'm just not the audience for it.

1:15:53 - Spring Roundup

Ben

And we're back!

David

Hey, y'all!

Ben

Okay. [David laughs]

Nini

Hi, David! I'm so excited to have you with us!

David

I am, too!

Nini

I remember saying to Ben, like, probably around the time the first voice note hit the chat, like, ‘David has to come on the show.’ So, I am very glad that we were able to make it work.

David

I love that. He was telling me that people wanted to hear me, and I'm like, “Look, there are too many people who tell me to shut up. I love this!” [David and Nini laugh]

Nini

That will never be a problem over on this side.

David

“David talking again.”

Nini

Never shut up, I beg you. [chuckles]

1:16:40 - David Introduction and BL Background

Alright, alright. So, David, tell us about you. Tell us about how you even got into BL. Tell us a little bit about the David story.

David

And then it was a rabbit hole. I like finished that BL in like I think one sitting.

Ben

Which is insane.

David

And I think in that sitting I was texting Ben like, “Oh hell no!” [laughs] And then immediately went and watched another whole show back to back and that was Love by Chance.

Nini

Interesting!

David

Finished that the next night. [Nini laughs] Yeah, girl, I know. I know.

Ben

David

I was also watching all the current stuff.

Ben

Yeah, that was a lot.

David

I was, I think at least six, seven hours a day. For a while it was all BL.

Ben

According to David's MDL, he's basically current on all of the BL

David

Yeah. There's maybe like four or five recent ones that I haven't watched, and two of those I was directly told by someone ‘you are not missing anything.’

1:18:50 - David’s History with Queer Cinema

Ben

Here's an interesting question because you and I have been in the guts of queer cinema a long time. Prior to BL, what are some of your favorite gay movies that you remember?

David

Now, of course he knows this is loaded because I'm always gonna say Big Eden.

Ben

It’s so good.

David

Ben

The big Thai gay things we watched between 2012 and 2017ish…

David

Oh, Jesus Christ.

Ben

…were Love of Siam, Bangkok Love Story—a horrible film.

David

Horrible fucking film.

Ben

The Blue Hour—a good film but really unsettling—and How to Win at Checkers (Every Time).

David

Lord Jesus.

Ben

So.

David

Ben

[laughs] It would always be me leading them. I’m like hey I got this film!

David

[Nini laughs]

Ben

I like the queer angst films. David does not.

1:20:59 - David’s Favorite BL Actors

Ben

So back to BL! For funsies: How about you tell the people of the podcast who some of your favorite boys are.

David

Ohm and Fluke.

Ben

She is a My Blue girlie.

David

Uh, I really am. [whispers] Earth Pirapat. I love him.

Nini

Why did you whisper it like that?

David

Nini

I heard the F at the end of Earth right there and I was like I feel you. I completely understand where you're coming from this moment—not my particular ministry but I feel you.

David

Yeah, thank you, thank you. I had to constantly deal with Ben's malcontent, so thank you for acknowledging…

Ben

David

I—he came on the screen. I was like “and that's it, yep, right there!”

Nini

You were officially sprung.

David

Right there! [gross David mouth noises] Yes.

Nini

Oh my God. [laughs]

David

Yeah, Earth. Earth. That's all I gotta say, Earth. That man—whew—Lord.

Ben

David has an appreciation for what he calls ‘the Big Talls’ and—

David

Yeah, I love the Big Talls.

Nini

Fair. You know how I feel about a Big Tall.

Ben

You and Nini can hang out together talking about Man Trisanu—

David

Man! Oof, girl! Not Man! Oh my…girl!

Nini

‘Man.’ Is. Correct.

David

Never has a name so encapsulated a being.

Nini

‘Man’ and ‘tree’ in the same place.

David

Girl. Man. Tree. Mountain. Stud. I mean, look, look, look, Man. Man did the job that he was sent here to do. God Bless him. May Buddha protect him. Like yass. [Nini laughs]

1:23:24 - David’s Thoughts on the Spring Shows

Nini

Okay, so we've got the shows we've got the boys. Let's dive into the season. Talk to me about how you felt about this spring—all the shows we've been watching over the last few months

David

So, I think I've said this to Ben before. I felt that this season was probably the one of the most extremes. Like there were a few things that were -hmm- misses, kind of, but for the most part we had…duds and bangers. And the bangers made the duds and the misses that much worse.

We had [The] Eighth Sense, Bed Friend, Our Dining Table, Jack o’ Frost, and everything else was okay, but those are all 10s and they were bangers, and it just made everything—

Ben

How dare you forget La Pluie? I will beat you.

David

Oh I'm, I'm so sorry, please forgive me sir. [Ben laughs] You're right. I—I'm so sorry, sir. La Pluie. He's right. That was wrong. I do deserve the slapdown that I just received.

Ben

Sat in my house—for 11 of 12 episodes.

David

In his house—played in his face y'all. Played in this man’s face. In his face like he didn’t know who it was. I’m sorry. La Pluie.

[Nini laughs]

Ben

-Hmm-

David

I think—oh here—

Nini

Ben is gonna fight you, but David I am on your side!

David

I heard the -mmm-. She has talked to me about this before. I actually completely agree with what I know she's gonna say, but I still think they stuck the landing in a way that everyone else fumbled and fell on their fucking face.

Ben

-Hmm-

Nini

David, you me. You can't see me now but we are shaking hands! We are shaking hands.

David

We are I—I concur. Thank you.

Ben

I’m gonna have a little sip while y’all—

[David and Nini laugh]

1:26:15 - Somewhat Forgettable Shows

Ben

David

[Ben laughs]

They tr–girl, they’re my top nominee for “Y'all tried it”

[Ben and Nini laugh]

Ben

David has declared a new entrant into Girl, You Tried.

Nini

I'm putting it in the notes. What about you, Ben? What's the one or two that you liked but to actually remember you gotta look at the list?

Ben

David

I agree with those, particularly Love Mate. Like, I would put Love Tractor on that list.

Nini

I watched Love Mate and Love Tractor after the fact. Which, by the way, the Koreans have got to get better at naming these shows.

Ben

Love Tractor is a good one, too! Like, Love Tractor was actually good—

David

Love Tractor was good.

Ben

It feels like they missed it.

David

Nini

I feel like that's fair for both Love Mate and Love Tractor.

What else did we watch that I have to remind myself that we watched?

Ben

There were quite a few flops we did not even acknowledge the season. [laughs]

Nini

We're not even talking about the flops—

Ben

David's going on on a face journey right now.

David

Like, my whole, -sighs- There were so many… 've seen fish dumped on the bottom of a boat that flopped less than some—

Nini

Oh my God—

David

Fish gasping for air trying to get back into the sea! “Release me, old man, and I shall grant you three wishes!” Some of this stuff was flippity floppity floopin’ all over the place.

Ben

As I remind David about the trenches that I fought through for eight years of BL.

David

Here he goes…

Nini

“Oh, all my life I had to fight.”

David

Had to fight David. I had to fight Viki. I had to fight iQIYI—

David

I love BL.

Nini

Had to fight WeTV!

David

Lord knows I do!

Ben

I did have to fight WeTV, though, shit.

[everyone laughs]

1:29:25 - Favorite Actor Pairs

Ben

David

Bed Friend.

Ben

What about Net and James really stuck out for you?

David

Ben

Judging on their previous work I would not expect—

David

—on their previous work, but they were both…fantastic.

Ben

What about you, Nini?

Nini

My couple of the season? It's gotta be Man and Ben.

David

I'm not even mad.

Nini

I think Man and Ben did a really good job with Step by Step.

David

I’m not even mad…even though that boy has the ugliest crying face—God bless him—Ben, I love Ben to death, but like his crying face makes me so angry.

[Ben laughs]

I'm like please teach this child how to cry without scrunching up his mouth like that. I love him, though.

And how tall is Man? 6’9” or something?

Ben

I don't know. It's a lot though.

Nini

Man was on point. Everything he put on screen was on point, and Ben just followed along I think. I think they did really well.

David

Nini

He was crying in his baby brother's lap.

David

Nini

David

It was working and this motherfucker couldn't cry! I was like how dare you!

Ben

My couple of this season is Title and Pee from La Pluie.

Nini

I knew you were going there.

Ben

Girl, you knew what this was. We did not simp hard enough for Title during the La Pluie discussion.

[David laughs]

David

You know you can't be looking at everybody like that because even I was like he's a whore.

[Ben laughs]

You don't look at everybody like that.

Nini

Did I not say that Tai is an alley cat like from jump.

David

And you were right. You were a prophet. You led the march because he's a whore.

Ben

And he bit that man.

David

And then he bit him.

Nini

David

All I'm saying…What was I saying? He's a whore. That's what I'm saying.

[Ben laughs]

I lost the thread at some point.

Ben

David

Oh…I didn’t think about it like that.

Ben

They give such legible performances over the course of the show. There's never a moment where you're confused about what Saengtai or Patts is feeling and why they're feeling it.

Ben

So we talked about the actors. We loved Net and James this season. We loved Man and Ben. We loved Title and Pee. Who else stood out this season?

Nini

Iijima and Inukai.

Ben

Also Suzuki Kosuke and Honda Kyoya. The Japanese BLs we gave 10s to? Stellar performances. Nobody has looked like such a sap more than Iijima in a long time and that was so lovely to watch.

1:36:49 - The Changing Nature of BLs

Ben

Let's get into the cerebral. We talked a little bit in the… Adult Swim episode about how intellectually demanding this season felt.

David

Back to back to back to back bangers. I don't even know if we've had a season where there were that many back to back to back bangers.

Ben

David

Ben

Nini, you have any thoughts about the…cerebral nature of this season you want to get out for the lagniappe?

Nini

David

Trash is where it's at, yup.

Nini

Ben

1:39:34 - Girl, You Tried

So before we talk about where BL is going next…We've been building towards this all season. It's time to hand out Girl, You Tried.

[David laughs]

David

Ben

Nini, please introduce our contestants.

Nini

David

To be fair, I did not watch A Shoulder to Cry On because Ben dogged that show out so bad I wasn't even gonna give it the time of day. So, um, I can't vote on A Shoulder to Cry On.

Ben

How did they try?

David

Maybe they were trying to do a cooking show. Maybe they were trying to do a show about kitchen safety, and why you shouldn't be in your kitchen naked. I really don't know what they were trying to do.

Ben

Nini, we've talked about a lot of these shows a lot. Who is your winner for Girl, You tried for this season?

Nini

Ben

Yeah, you gave it a 9…

Nini

Ben

I love Tee a lot, as a creator, as a queer person, and…I'm always rooting for him, but goddamn does he make it hard sometimes.

[David and Ben laugh]

Nini

Ben said Tee’s that friend you have who's right, but damn, shut the fuck up. [laughs]

Ben

Drink your juice, Shelby!

David

Tee really is. Girl, you shoulda just sat there and ate your dinner. Tee really is that friend. See! Just sit there, just eat.

Ben

Nini

All right. The dubious honor of Girl, You Tried for Spring 2023 with two- thirds of the votes [laughs] goes to Step by Step.

David

I amend my vote. You have talked me out of my vote. I will now amend my vote: Step by Step clears the board!

Ben

The whole panel! [laughs]

David

It'll be the only award show it ever sweeps.

[Nini laughs]

Nini

Sorry! So it's now unanimous.

David

Minus ones across the board.

Ben

Alright, panel, 10s or chops? Nini?

Nini

One chop.

Ben

Two chops.

David

Three fucking chops. [Nini laughs]

I don't see it!

1:46:56 - Looking Ahead

Ben

Our final section: Looking Ahead. What do we have up next? Nini, you've got the list.

Nini

We had to literally amend the name of our chat for the show, like as the show went on. What did it start as?

Ben

Not Our Favorite.

Nini

I was not watching at that point. It went from Not Our Favorite to Maybe? It's Good?? to We’re Mad This Might Be Good. And then now our chat is just called UGH! FINE!!

[David laughs]

David

Ben

What else is on the “Wow are we actually watching this?” list.

David

I know it's not Hidden Agenda.

Nini

It is Hidden Agenda.

David

Ben

I don't hate it! I don't think I'm sold on it yet. But I don't hate it.

David

Someone told me that they have definitely gotten better…as acting, now, one show under.

Ben and Nini

-Hmmmmmmmmmm-

David

No! Not the both of you! Not the both of you!

[Ben and Nini laugh]

Not the both of you going -hmmmm- like a starting up race car. I am so mad that you both at the, nearly a second apart -hmmmm-

[Everyone laughs]

Nini

David

Understood.

Nini

This is giving me such Lovely Writer teas in some very specific ways, but it's too early to tell as yet—

David

What are we? Three in, or two in?

Nini

With Tee, he's a slow burn motherfucker. You just got to give him time to get into it. So I am holding my thoughts on it…so far, but I am contractually obligated to watch it all the way through.

Ben

David and I caught up on Laws of Attraction this weekend. It's a lot of fun. We're having a great time.

David

I love him.

Ben

He’s talking about the insane lawyer.

David

His level of outright ridiculous sissiness. I live for. It is walking gay chaos…and I…live… for every moment he is on the screen. And somehow each shirt got gayer.

Ben

[laughs ]And it better be champagne-colored!

David

“And you are to bring it back here, and I swear to God, if it's not earth-toned or champagne…I will beat you to within an inch of your life. Go do your job and get out of my face.”

[Nini laughs]

I live. I live! I was resurrected. I had bronchitis and he cleared it up. It resurrected me. That whole scene healed me in body and spirit. I'm not gonna even lie.

Nini

So I am not watching this. I am waiting for somebody to tell me I must watch this.

David

Oh girl, you're not missing anything. Do not get us wrong! You are not missing cinéma vérité by any stretch of any one's fucking imagination. But what I will tell you is that it is delightful.

Ben

Also from Thailand, we are watching Be Mine Superstar.

Nini

When I was talking earlier about a trash watch. This is what I was talking about. [laughs]

David

I have not been watching it because it was another one that I was kind of waiting to see what Ben was gonna say.

Ben

David

Okay!

Ben

Okay, we're gonna talk about the shit I care about!

Nini

Now Ben wants to talk about Japan.

Ben

Let's talk about Japan!

David

Oh, here she go. Buckle up, folks. It's gonna be a bumpy night.

Ben

Japan is currently airing two shows. I am living my best life!

From Korea we have Jun & Jun right now. If you are kind of bougie about Korean production, I don't think you're going to enjoy this one.

Finally, Taiwan is back! Oh my god, Taiwan is back and it's as cracked out as ever! Holy shit Stay by My Side is so stupid! I love it!

[David laughs]

We don't know when Man Suang is going to come out. We're anticipating it but we have no idea when it's going to release because they are doing the international festivals circuit thing.

David

A friend of mine got into a viewing of it. Apparently it's good. Sincerely good.

Nini

There is something else coming out of Drama Shower that I don't have on the list because it only came up recently. My Personal Weatherman. That is what it’s called.

And the last one, which I am obligated to mention because my baby Na Naphat. Na and ISBANKY is in it and Saiparn from Midnight Museum. It's Club Saipan Fine: Moments and Memories.

Ben

That looks like a goddamn mess.

Nini

It looks exactly like the kind of trash that I need to watch, and it’s only four episodes.

Ben

I'm glad it's only four episodes, so you can report back quickly because goddamn I am not doing that one.

David

Ben look harrangued—and traumatized—right now. [Ben laughs] He's huddling on the floor in the corner shaking his head.

Nini

It's mess and lesbians.

David

Oh wait! There are lesbians in it?

Nini

Yes.

David

And here we are! We're there. That's it, that’s it. I'm watching it.

1:57:44 - Outro

Ben

As we wrap this up, David, thank you for joining us as our very first guest on The Conversation.

David

Oh god this was awesome.

Nini

I just want to let the people know that we've been here for two hours. I don't know how long the edit's going to be but we've been having a goodass time.

Ben

I think we just take, like, the necessary stuff for the episode and then just release a bonus episode and just call it the David Cut. [David laughs]

David

It's the David Cut where I talk in a gravelly voice.

Ben

David, since we are together we have to do the thing for Nini because she's been waiting for it for a long time.

Let's remind our listeners something very important: Dick is abundant.

David

And low in value.

Ben

Dick futures are not a safe investment.

David

The NASDICK is trending down.

Nini

[crying] The NASDICK…

Ben

I'm making sure it's the NASDICK—I said NASDICK and I almost killed Ben. The first time I said the NASDICK is trending down and almost killed one of my best friends.

Nini

[laughs] On that note, I think it's time to wrap, and we will bid you all adieu until the fall. David, Ben, say bye to the people. We out.

David

Bye! Thank you guys for having me! It was great!

Ben

Peace!

#podcast #my only 12 percent #roommates of poongduck 304 #she loves to cook and she loves to eat #the shipper #me my husband and my husband's boyfriend #ben and nini's conversations #the conversation #on art #season 3 #summer 2023 #korean bl #Spotify

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