#talia meta

[devine-fem]

This is the post about Damian Wayne being whitewashed that will probably go ignored because it dives deeper than pointing at a Damian Wayne and urging DC to draw him darker. I don’t particularly care about likes but I feel like we should emphasize whitewashing in detail and not just pointing at Damian and being like “he should be darker than this!”

What is whitewashing?

Whitewashing is deeper than the color of someones skin, it boils down to the way they act, are perceived and is portayed over all. If you take away a character’s cultural roots in any way then you are whitewashing them.

-

Let’s start with The Brave & The Bold. No one talks about this but this is a perfect example of whitewashing. In the Brave & The Bold writers took Damian Wayne and just emphasized the Wayne in his name. Damian’s culture did not fit their narrative so they entirely erased it.

Bruce Wayne married Selina Kyle and after had a baby, no, that baby was not Helena. It was Damian. Damian Wayne and only Wayne. He had no connection to Talia whatsoever. They erased Talia and the Al Ghuls entirely from Damian’s story.

This is an example of how his whitewashing goes deeper than skin. He’s now entirely white, drawn as white and lives as a white kid. They changed the way he acted, was perceived and portrayed.

Then because that’s not enough. His identity was a very blatant copy of Tim Drake. He takes Tim Drake’s suit, he takes Tim Drake’s backstory and he takes Tim Drake’s iconic catchphrases, its extremely jarring. This is another example of whitewashing, taking away his personality and to fit a white character.

The Tim Drake curse.

Another example of whitewashing would be the continuous attempt to make Damian Wayne more relatable by watering down his personality and making him reflect Tim Drake. Tim Drake was Robin for so long and so loved that it has a lasting effect on other characters as well. As long as Damian wears that “R” that was celebrated at its highest when the character wearing it was fair skinned then I doubt he’ll ever escape this. This is whitewashing because erasing his personality is also erasing his roots on the most basic level. In his stories, he becomes an average highschool student, pursues romances, indulges in feel good family fun, gets bullied, and wears suits and changes his hair once again to reflect Tim Drake. I don’t even have to mention how light he is.

The Three Horsemen of The Pale-skinned Apocalypse.

On the left we have a portrayel of Damian Wayne with light skin and blue eyes. Not only that but in this comic, they didn’t even get his culture right… the writer must had thought he was japanese… he’s not… he’s part Arab and Chinese but genetically dominant and visually POC.

In the middle we have a Damian Wayne called “Ian.” It’s just Ian. This is an example of whitewashing because if you didn’t know; Talia named Damian after the word “Damianos” which means ‘to tame’. To erase his cultural roots in his name then you are whitewashing him. And Jonathan Kent, a visually and socially white character regardless of the immigrant-kryptonian allegory, did not get this treatment. Those characters seem to never get this treatment as we know.

On the right, we have Damian’s newest installation, the one DC twisted their comically large spoon into their Witch’s caucasian cauldron and used their magic to zap Damian with that Tim Drake curse. Damian’s eyes are green, not grey or blue and his hair is thicker than that, not straight and thin. Nor does he act like this. This is an example of whitewashing. You are changing how he acts, is perceived and portayed.

How to avoid this?

It’s simple actually, just exercise the way he was originally portayed which sadly has never been wrote exactly right since he was first introduced but as you can see:

This Damian Al Ghul-Wayne flaunts his culture in the way he dresses and acts. This Damian Al Ghul-Wayne speaks his native languages when it’s convenient to him. This Damian Al Ghul-Wayne is connected to Talia and grew up in the league of Assassins. This Damian Al Ghul-Wayne made his own Robin suit.

He has brown skin, he has soft green eyes, and look at his monolids, his hair is also thick and his face is dinstinctly shaped as well. The easiest way is just to portay Damian as he is; An Arab-Chinese kid.

For example, this artist made a conscious decision to study the way Damian Wayne looks before drawing him. Even adding distinct features like a nose bump which we never get to really see from him.

Why does whitewashing happen?

The idea that a person of colors’ features and culture are not appealing to the audience and needs to be altered to fit the norm in order to be palatable.

In fandom.

If you portray Selina Kyle as Damian’s mother then you are whitewashing him. If you change the way he acts in fanfiction because you don’t like it then you are whitewashing him. If you draw Damian Wayne lighter than what he’s supposed to be than you are whitewashing him. If you demonize the Al Ghuls and put the batboys in place of them then you are whitewashing him. If you change the meaning of Robin for him then you are whitewashing him (this does not include reverse robin AU’s for example) and if you make him do any action that’d align him with what an American kid is supposed to be doing then you are whitewashing him. But let’s say you make a AU where the point is his personality is different or his upbringing is different, this is not whitewashing, this is having fun. To have an initial subconscious mental bias when it comes to a POC character is different, entirely different.

And about other races… Damian Wayne is one of the few Arab-chinese portrayels in Media, please do not alter this, even if its to make him any other variant of POC. Damian Wayne is Damian Wayne and if that’s not interesting enough for you then use a different character that is that race. <- do not fight me on this.

We as a collective should focus on portaying Damian Wayne. It’s deeper than skin. It’s crazy because its really not that complex…

In conclusion, be mindful of why you were invited to this Damian Wayne function…

#just was a lil tired #of no one wanting to put in effort #damian wayne #damian wayne meta #damian wayne whitewashing #batfam #dc comics #super sons #bruce wayne #talia al ghul #al ghul family

[tarragonthedragon]

actually now that I think about it the idea of Talia being an overprotective mother but in like a death cult assassin way consumes me

when Damian does poison exposure training she refuses to let the food be in tupperwares because of the chemicals leeching into it from the plastic

she runs over the handles of all his weapons with antibac before he's allowed to stab people

her stranger danger talks would be a thing of legend

#dc #batman #damian wayne #talia al ghul #meta

[waspredteeth]

Let's talk about Damian, the League of Assassins and the al Ghuls. A.K.A things to keep in mind when writing them.

You don't have to force yourself to comply with this, but there are some important facts you need to know and things you absolutely SHOULDNT do (be racist or orientalist).

Read on for a long post about Damian and the League and his family - giving context, some research and comic storylines, and characterization.

There are basically three different backstories for Damian.

Batman: Son of the Demon - technically, this baby is unnamed and not completely Damian. But the writer of that comic does still (sorta) resent that Morrison was able to write Damian in current comics while he wasn't. This baby was given up for adoption by Talia and we never see him again. Fans vastly prefer taking this backstory (me) because Damian is NOT a product of rape and Talia is written like herself.

Morrison's canon/the 2006-2011 era - the Damian we know and love. Kinda-sorta. So, in Morrison's whole run - Damian was raised in the League and trained as an assassin. One key point here: Talia DID NOT raise him. Morrison instead wrote that Talia only first met Damian when he was eight years old, and she was out of his life before then. Morrison also completely fucked up by writing Talia as a rapist who assaulted Bruce in Son of the Demon rather than the actual consensual sex they had. While it gave us the character, its not the complete version that many like. (and also its pretty racist)

Tomasi/Gleason's canon in Batman and Robin/Robin: Son of Batman - almost the same Damian as before, with one key difference: we actually get see what his training and life in the League entailed. Additionally, Talia in this version raised him from an infant, thus making his connection with her much stronger. A win/lose situation there. Talia would never raise her son under her father, but we do get a stronger mother/child bond than we ever had before. (Still fucked, but insanely better than Morrison).

From these three versions, only two utilize the League of Assassins in Damian's origin.

The League, then, is very important to his character. By extension, so should Ras right?

In Morrison's canon/the 2009 era - no, apparently. As per Resurrection of Ras al Ghul, he only sees Damian as a vessel for his soul. To stay eternally youthful and does not care for him as grandson in any way. This...is a lot. You could use it for angst. But it's also not in line with Ras' characterization. You could argue that this version of him and Damian have never interacted before but still.

Here's what you need to know about Ras al Ghul. He was and still is: a doctor. A man of science. He loves and wants to save the beauty of nature. Ras is an eco-terrorist. Not a generic assassin. He believes in the life of nature, animals, but he despises humanity for what they've done to the world. He has seen it all, and he canonically laments of loss of endangered species, of ruined habitats and long-gone animals he once cared for.

He also loves his family. A lot. The entire reason he becomes the Demon's Head is because his first wife, Sora, was killed by someone he treated, and then he was imprisoned and forced to co-habit with her corpse. Of course, over the centuries he's been alive, she's become only one reason for his existence, as we see how jaded he sees humanity and how little he trusts people. He latches onto Talia, his surviving daughter, because he loves her and he grieves her mother. He degrades Dusan, the White Ghost, because he cannot bring himself to love him. He was murdered by Nyssa because she felt betrayed and began to despise his love (and inaction). In current canon, Damian is his grandson and he loves him, despite everything.

Of course, it doesn't justify what he's done. But it's a crucial part of his character: the twisted love that cages. The love that binds and says it knows best for you - "I only want the best for you, I want to protect you, I want the world for you. Can't you see that? I can bring you something better." The fact that he's an ancient immortal only adds to the superiority he believes he's giving to his family.

We return to the League of Assassins. SO, the League was canonically created to further his ultimate goal: saving the planet. Again, eco-terrorism. The League exists to cull the human population. Ras believes in utopia, a world without any humans (even himself and his family). Ras is willing to die, eventually, like a really long time from now, if he gets to complete his goal. Thus, the League wholeheartedly believes in him, for the betterment of the world with their savior at the head. Exactly how the League treats their mission and Ras depends on the writer - but it's common to write them as a cult. Almost a religion.

We don't really get a lot about they operate. There are figures like Dr. Darrk and the White Ghost and all the stuff that comes up in Red Robin. We get some interesting ideas and characters in Robin: Son of Batman. But we don't get how the League works. There's no comic that does a step by step breakdown of their finances, operations, assassins, employees, what Ras actually does to lead and impart his vision to his followers.

We go the cult route, then. Here's something that I'm currently exploring and that I think others should too: The League is a global cult that believes in the holiness of death and the end of humanity in order to save nature/the planet. The League is far-reaching. It is eternal. It has existed for centuries, just as long as Ras al Ghul has.

Damian was part of a cult. Depending in your version of events, he was either taken from his adoptive parents or born into the League. Either way, he was indoctrinated. He believes in his grandfather's ideas. His training, canonically, began when he was very young. It was fast paced, trainer after teacher after teacher. He didn't grow attached to them, but he retained the skills. He is raised not just as an assassin. He is raised as an heir. A leader. An overachievement of talent and privileges. He embodies Ras' beliefs.

He is worshipped. A symbol of the cult. A prince. He is dehumanized. He is a figurehead, a piece of Ras that the common folk can touch and see. Damian believes in this superiority, misguidedly thinks they respect him and not the word of Ras. And there begins the struggle.

He grows up arrogant. Manipulated by his loving grandfather into something he really shouldn't be. But there is still Talia.

Either she only met him later in life when he was eight years old, or she was there from the beginning. In both cases, she would NOT stand for her son being treated this way.

Talia is not a completely non-violent character. She has killed before, and does not have the strict rules of Bruce. But she's not an assassin (at least , she didn't used to be). She can cry over a soul lost. She can shoot a gun but with a trembling heart. Talia was raised by her father with affection. She was sheltered, spoiled. She was educated and trained, yes, but she was not made into a weapon. She was taught martial arts for skills, protection, for Ras' paranoid benefit.

She was loved, but Ras has canonically hit her in moments in rage. He has canonically manipulated/threatened her to try and kill Bruce. I fully believe that she would want to protect Damian from as much abuse as possible even if they're both in the League.

You can interpret her split from her father as many things: her love for Bruce, her love for the world, her own love for her father and seeing in horror how twisted he'd become, her need for independence, to be her own woman without Bruce or Ras in her life, an abused child becoming an adult, etc.

Talia also canonically studied medicine (in Cairo). She believes in life. She would impart this onto her son. She wouldn't want him to grow up sheltered as she was, nor would she want him to become a weapon to be wielded. Talia would advocate for him to be taught arts and literature and respect for nature, and to try and give him some sense of normalcy. She was the one who let him keep Goliath. She would never kill Damian's pets (Morrison you have three days what were you thinking?!).

(EDIT: adding some more context to the Talia section of this post!)

After Talia healed Jason using the Pit and sent him to be trained, she left the League in entirety. For several comics, she was entirely independent and drifting - enjoying her life apart from Ras as her own woman.

For a brief moment in comics when Lex Luthor was the US President (yes that happened), he chose Talia to oversee LexCorp. Talia does not like Lex, but she agreed anyway in order to secretly change his company from the inside. While she put on a front to the public and Superman as another cruel businesswoman, in reality she was draining Lex's finances, shifting LexCorp into a more ethical direction, and digging up as much dirt as possible on Lex in order to take him down. She secretly gave Superman information on all of Lex's evil plans as she could, but didn't directly work with him. She wasn't LexCorp CEO for very long, but it was pretty much all she was doing until the events of Death and the Maidens. It can be assumed that while she was a CEO, Damian was being trained in the League in secret.

In Batman: Death and the Maidens, Talia was kidnapped and repeatedly tortured/resurrected in a Lazarus Pit by Nyssa Raatko (her half-sister) in order to brainwash her. She was killed, over and over and over again, then resurrected every single time afterwards in immense pain until she was filled with nothing but primal rage. Nyssa's goal was to use Talia as her own pawn against Ras in a revenge plot. The brainwashing made her a loyal follower of Nyssa, hate Bruce, and made her kill Ras without a second thought. Eventually, they succeeded in taking over the League - leading to the eventual storylines in Robin: One Year Later and Infinite Crisis where Nyssa is shown leading the League (before her unceremonious death). Ras eventually returns in the Batman: Resurrection of Ras al Ghul storyline that precedes Final Crisis/Bruce's death.

Some fans use this Pit event to explain Talia's butchered character in later appearances - making her abusive and cold to Damian and a full villain towards Bruce - as a consequence of this horrific brainwashing. It's definitely a far better explanation for her actions in Batman and Robin (2009) and Batman Incorporated than her sudden heel turn under Morrison. Unless you're completely re-writing her actions in the 2009-2011 era to be more in line with her original characterization, then this explanation is an easy add-in to explain her dynamic with Damian in your fic if you want.

You could take the complicated family dynamics of the al Ghuls and write some seriously heavy stuff on love and abuse and the cycles of trauma and violence. From Rúh to Ras down to Talia/Nyssa/Dusan down to Damian and Mara. It's one big circle.

Speaking of which, here's a list of all known al Ghuls for your convenience.

Rúh al Ghul - AKA Mother Soul. Ras' mother. She's fairly recent, but I think she's interesting enough to include. Unlike Ras' hard beliefs in science, Rúh is very spiritual and a practitioner of magic. Through her, it can be implied that every al Ghul has the possibility of learning magic. She believes in a figure called the Demon. Led the League of Lazarus on Lazarus Island, where she was basically imprisoned for centuries.

Ras al Ghul - real name unknown. The originator.

Sora - his first wife. Deceased. Killed by a raging prince who was healed by the Pit, as Ras did not know what it did back then.

Melisande - his second wife. Talia's mother. Half-Arab, half-Chinese. Deceased. Ras canonically met her at Woodstock (lol). She was murdered by Qayin, the antagonist of Son of the Demon. In some depictions (basically only Morrison) she was revealed to be alive and a fortune teller who hid her identity from Talia. (I think her being dead makes more sense for how Ras treats Talia, and her issues/love for her father).

Nyssa Raatko - I believe she's Ras' oldest child. Technically, she's been dead since Infinite Crisis and has not appeared in comics ever since. Canonically tortured and brainwashed Talia. Led the League for at least a couple months to a year. Half-Russian, part Arab and Chinese. Jewish ?, it's complicated. Canonically survived the Holocaust. Is immortal.

Dusan al Ghul - the first White Ghost. Albino. The forgotten and despised son. Still very loyal to Ras, does not call him father and instead calls him the Demon's Head. Mara's father. Is not immortal.

Talia al Ghul - the younger child. The beloved one. Damian's mother. Is not immortal.

Damian al Ghul-Wayne - you know already.

Mara al Ghul - Dusan's daughter. Damian's cousin. I think they're pretty much the same age. Raised in the League, led the Demon's Fist. Can be assumed to have been trained in the same subjects as Damian at the same time.

Compiling all of this, here's the things to NOT DO when writing the al Ghuls and the League:

Making them animal abusers, encouraging Damian to kill animals or showing him their deaths. The League stands for nature. They would not kill them unless its for food or mercy. It's insanely racist, even, to imply that a group of Arab-based people or Ras or Talia would gleefully brutally murder a puppy in order to teach Damian a "lesson."

Making Ras or Talia comically abusive. Ras would be hard on Damian and manipulate him. He's smart. He knows what he's doing all the time. He'd rather keep Damian's loyalty than turn him against him using physical violence. That doesn't mean he wouldn't ever threaten him, just..idk show some restraint when you write them interacting. On the other hand, Talia WOULD NEVER ABUSE HER SON. You could make an argument for Ras, but Talia would never ever hit her son unless she was forced to.

This is just common sense. DO NOT write the League or al Ghuls as racist, orientalist tropes. Research before you write? Use your brain. Please, I'm begging you. If you think of a concept you think might be problematic, look it up, try and find sources, ask around.

Make Ras weirdly obsessed with/in love with Tim. Seriously. What the fuck. This also weird and racist. I've seen horrendous tik-toks making shitty jokes over this. ITS NOT TRUE. STOP MAKING HIM A PEDO BC YOU THINK ITS FUNNY OR EVEN REMOTELY INTERESTING. Never once has Ras expressed a desire as making Tim "his bride" or some fucked shit like that. I'm going to beat you with hammers.

Having everyone take a dip in the Lazarus Pits/using them extensively to become immortal. As far as I know, only Rúh and Ras have used them frequently. Only they are the immortal ones, the ones arguably driven slowly mad by the unknown sciences of the pit. Talia is not immortal, she's not even that old, and she doesn't have the desire to be ageless. She has to be at least near Bruce's age, maybe younger than him depending on the timeline/your interpretation. Damian did not ever become exposed to the Pits until after he was killed in Batman Inc, and even then- he was NOT resurrected by it. (Actually I don't think he's ever been put into one.)

Having Talia hate Bruce. Like, No? Currently, they have more of a "we are Divorced but still care another but also we don't agree" dynamic. But they were once really in love, star-crossed even, they were married. But Ras and circumstances and even Damian pulled them apart. (I do think writing Damian as a child of divorce is both accurate and kind of funny).

Finally, demonizing all of the al Ghuls and making Bruce's half of the family Damian's saviors. THIS is racist. Full stop. Making his majority white family the "good ones" and "saving" him from his evil brown family is an insanely bad thing to write. We have to see it enough in comics, please don't write it into your fic. There can be redeeming things about the al Ghuls, about his life prior to meeting Bruce. Keep in mind, always, that Damian is part Arab/Chinese, that the al Ghuls are all a mix of Arab/Chinese ancestry and that they should/would be imparting their culture onto him. The League was where he was taught art, to appreciate animals. You could write Talia imparting certain tea preferences onto him, favorite cultural foods, practices, numerous languages. Ras is immensely proud of his own heritage, muddled by age it may be, there's no way he didn't let Damian express himself this way. I fully believe Damian is fluent in various Arabic languages and Chinese, and that his first language is not English.

My final message: think before you write. Consider the actual comics, in fact, I'll put one here for Ras.

Ras al Ghul: One Bad Day. Published 2023. Unfortunately written by Tom Taylor (sigh). Its still good though.

Ras kills some rich guys for facilitating the extinction of the wolf species you see. Of course, Bruce investigates.

Ras kills Bruce, keeps him dead for three months before resurrecting him in the Pit. Damian stays by Bruce's side. There's a lot more, but I implore you to read this comic for yourself to get the full experience.

Thus ends this post. Read this comic for yourself! Have fun writing them, just take these things into mind.

#dc #damian wayne #dc comics #ras al ghul #talia al ghul #league of assassins #batman #batman meta #dc meta #robin #waspdoesathought #racism #kinda #just keep in mind there's some insane tropes stapled onto the al Ghuls and perpetuated further in fics #a painted bird named tamer #writing advice ? #enjoy :)

[sxnshxnxxnddxxsxxs]

why do people always have damian refer to talia as mother or talia?

now i’m gonna preface this by saying i don’t speak arabic nor am i arab but arab people feel beyond free to just tell me to stay in my lane.

that being said it makes zero sense to me that damian refers to talia as mother or her first name. this goes for both canon and fanon.

mother makes no sense to me because he wouldn’t have grown up saying mother, like you expect me to believe that in nanda parbat damian was referring to his mother in english absolutely not. and while i understand the idea that once he moves to gotham he tries to assimilate i don’t think he would do that my addressing talia as mother. like he might say my mother when referring to her in general. but when actually speaking to her or about her to her family that just feels very unnatural to me.

talia also makes no sense to me. like is to showcase their tumultuous relationship sure okay but i have never in my life seen or heard of a brown person or a poc in general directly refer to their parents as their first name. like when they’re not around sure but as a direct address never. i say this as a poc myself. like you expect me to just believe that talia would allow that. absolutely not. like no matter your stance on respectability politics i feel like addressing your elders with the appropriate respect is a pretty universal thing especially among poc. and you can still portray a tumultuous relationship between parents and children without having an element that’s so aberrative.

i think it especially pisses me off in fanon because people love to have damian refer to bruce or dick as baba as like evidence of their improving relationship but then have talia be called talia or mother. and if the reasoning is that damian and talia’s relationship is so bad that he’s doing this purposefully to put this space between them then that should be demonstrated in the narrative. that this is a recent change, an unnatural one, it isn’t instinctual, but it is purposeful. i mean there are also other issues with talia and damian having a horrible relationship but i find that most of that comes down to talias post 2001 characterisation so i wont go into it but i defo think writers should keep in mind. no media is ever created in a vacuum.

anyway from a little bit of research i’ve done i’ve found that yumma, ommah and omm are all very common ways to say mother. there are loads of different ways to say mother because arabic has so many different dialects. i’ve also found out that ommi el-habiba means my beloved mother which i could totally see damian saying really bitingly if he is fighting with talia.

once again arab people feel free to correct me or tell me to mind my business. but also i think about this a lot like even mama makes far more sense to me than mother or talia

#damian wayne #damian wayne al ghul #talia al ghul #dc batfam #batfamily #bruce wayne #dick grayson #robin #batman #batfamily headcanons #batman meta #batfam meta

[allhalesterekstilinski]

I want to talk about the Teen Wolf siblings, particularly their age differences.

Brett is a freshman in season 4. We don’t know how old Lori is, but later she says Brett only accepted the scholarship at Devenford if they would accept her as well. This means either Devenford includes some middle school as well as high school, Lori was smart enough to skip a grade or two, Brett and Lori are 9 months apart, or they’re twins. It’s also possible she’s a couple years younger and was only recently accepted, but since he bargained for her from the beginning, I don’t think it’s as likely.

Based on the short audio clips from “Motel California” it sounds like Boyd and Alicia were close in age, both pretty young, but when we see her body she looks a little older. I would assume he’s older since he was in charge of watching her.

Malia and Kylie were close in age based on the framed photo in her room. In “Ghosted” Kylie has mysteriously aged from about 7 to about 12. Though this is likely due to forgetting information and not caring enough to fact check their own work.

The same could be said for Theo and Tara. They seem to be close in age, but the actresses playing Tara look like different ages. I would guess in season 5 flashbacks she was 11 or 12 when Theo was 9, but in season 6 she looks 17.

Isaac is 16 in season 2 and Camden would have been 24. There is a discrepency unless I’m missing something. Since season 2 is early in the year I’m willing to bet Camden would be 25 later in the year. If Isaac is 16 and Camden would be 24, that’s an 8 year gap. But if he graduated in 2006, he was born in 1988 and is approximately 6 years older. There’s no concrete evidence of when either of their birthdays are, so perhaps Isaac’s birthday is before Camden’s and there’s a short period of time the gap is 7 years. The calendar puts his birthday in February.

Kate said that growing up Chris always tried to make her look like the bad guy.  In 3B Chris says he was 18-years-old 24 years ago putting Chris’s birth year about 1969. Kate was born in 1983. That is a 14 year gap. Either she exaggerated or lied, which I would believe, or Chris was an incredibly shitty brother, which I would also believe. Could you imagine 17 year old Chris blaming 3 year old Kate for him coming home late one night or breaking their mom’s favorite vase?

We don’t know how old Gerard is. Alexander was 27 when he died. Alexander was 19/20 years older than Chris, so Gerard was probably in his early to mid twenties when Chris was born. A lot of actors’ ages coincide with their character’s approximate age. Michael Hogan was born in 1949, so if Gerard is around his age, he’s 20 years older than Chris and 34 years older than Kate. But then he would one year older than Alexander. Not impossible, but he is likely older.

Hayden is about 16 in season 5 because she can drive. The youngest a cop can be is 20, so at the very least Clark is 4 years older. It sounds like Clark had been her guardian for a while, so the gap is likely larger.

If we are going to believe the “In Memorium” video from MTV, Laura was born in 1982 and Peter was born in 1976. We never actually know how old Derek is. Jeff said his ID, putting his birthday in November 1988, was fake, but why? What is the significance of it being fake? It served no purpose and I think Jeff just wanted to fuck with us. Especially because it’s not canon in the show, he said it outside of the show. And if we believe the calendar that makes Derek a Christmas baby, why would he make himself only a month and a half older?

I’m going to assume Derek was “with” Kate leading up closely to the fire, meaning late 2004. If Derek was 16, or almost 16 if his birthday is Christmas, that would put his birthday in 1988. So in the pilot he’s 22. In the script he was meant to be 19 but then he was aged up because Jeff thought it was more important to traumatize him than find a way around it. In 3A Cora says she’s 17, which would put them at a 5 year gap. Laura is 6 years older than Derek and 11 years older than Cora. And if Cora was 11 by January of 2005, she was born in 1993.

I don’t know if this is canon or fanon that Talia raised Peter. Regardless, he is about 5 years older than Laura, 12 years older than Derek, and 17 years older than Cora. But Talia would have to be at the youngest 8 years older than Peter, and that’s if she had Laura at 13. In “Visionary” she appears to be about mid-forties. If this is within a year of the fire, then Peter is 26/27. The gap between Peter and Talia could range from 8 to 20 years.

I’m just so interested in these dynamics.

#teen wolf #teen wolf meta #derek hale #peter hale #cora hale #talia hale #chris argent #kate argent #brett talbot #lori rohr #lori talbot #vernon boyd #gerard argent #hayden romero #valerie clark #isaac lahey #malia tate #theo raeken #i want to know how many of the younger siblings were accidents #or maybe the older ones

[mintacle]

Jason Todd- DC's Pandora's box

If you only hadn't felt the need to see.

The allure of the beautiful, the desire for what you believe it will hold and the blessings you hope to receive. Open up that casket and look inside if that which you love most can still be found.

Jason Todd is blatantly without agency for a lot of his story. Ranging from the implications of his lack of self-determination as Robin and his demise resulting as actions unrelated to him; Sheila's desires, Joker and Batman's feud, Jason getting caught up in the middle without his own motive mattering much either way, - to his lack of autonomy over his narrative while dead, being turned into a cautionary tale and getting victim-blamed over and over again for his death - finally to his catatonic state for about a year after returning to life, rendering him more object than human and with the exception of Talia he is treated as a mere object. This lack of autonomy coupled with the heaping of others' worst nightmares and biggest hopes on him turns him into an instrument for others to torture themselves over.

The thing about the Pandora's Box is that it's myth was meant to drive home the point that women were inherently evil. Because they lure you in with their beauty but they hide things beneath this surface, and how dare they be more than what they appear to be, no, what you project them to be?

Once the box of Jason Todd is opened up and he is not the potential that everyone wishes to have fulfilled through him - the loyal son come back to life - it is clear that he is no good, he is a mistake.

And saying that Jason is Pandora's Box is not just random pontification. The Lost Days comics themselves allude to this. First we have Ra's saying so:

dehumanizing Jason and seeing him merely as how he affects others, namely inconveniences Ra's and is a distraction to his daughter.

Then at the end of the next issue, Jason tells Talia about his plan to kill Bruce and Talia says the same thing:

And the problem is that, while people can pontificate about whether Jason is good or bad, a net gain or a net loss, morally justified or morally apprehensive, what about Jason himself?

No one cared for Pandora or her plights, in fact ancient Greeks didn't much care for the plights of any woman. they were excused from caring about women with the Pandora's curse. Because of how others suffer due to their mere existence, it is not necessary to consider them. Never mind that the men's suffering is constructed in their own minds.

The pain that Jason puts others in by making them confront reality, that he died for Bruce's mission, is used as an excuse to not care about him either. Because he's too painful to look in the eye, because of the painful memories he brings up.

The potential of having him back was too alluring to ignore, the reality of it too crushing to accept. The only place to put all this blame for the hurt and suffering was on Jason himself. Never mins that he did not create this pain, did not ask to be brought back, that he is the one suffering most under this weight.

#Jason Todd #rambling #meta #girl-coded Jason Todd #Lost Days #to be clear Talia is the one character in his entirety of Lost Days/UTRH who views him differently #That one panel does not suffice to describe their relationship and she is the only human to see him as an act person and to care about HIM #will hopefully have the spoons to make a post about that too. #patron saint of victims

[goodoldfashionedengineer]

I like analysing shit.

I like Red Hood: Lost Days

So I am going to analyse some of it.

To start with, lets look at the titles of the issues.

#1: The First Step

#2: Baptism

#3: School

#4: Higher Learning

#5: After School Activities

#6: Benediction and Commencement

What immediately strikes me is how all of these are relevant to the issue AND as a whole. They are describing a life fresh from birth to how that life progresses until graduation. Extremely important when considering that this is basically Jason's second life. He died and now he is "reborn" after being put into the Lazarus pit.

The First Step: The fact that the title name was on the page in which Jason was pushed into the Pit lets me believe that this IS the first step, as Red Hood: Lost Days explains the time between him being found by Talia to him becoming Red Hood. This is the first step in him becoming the Red Hood.

Baptism: Not exactly clear as to what "Baptism" is referring to here. I have multiple ideas. First, there is the possibility that it is a continuation of the last issue, as that issue ended with Jason being pushed into the pit and in religious baptisms, water is usually connected to it as the person being baptized is getting water poured onto their head. But it could also mean a non-religious baptism as in he is starting a new role. He finally gets to train with a clear mind and can properly start his journey.

Issue #3-#5 are relatively similar, all him explaining his training and stopping the evil schemes his teachers are involved with.

Benediction and Commencement: Commencement, he has completed his training or "graduated" if you take the school aspect into account from issue 3 to 5. Benediction, he gets his blessings from Talia to finally confront Bruce after stalling him so long. Commencement, "the beginning of something new". The issue ends with him picking up the Red Hood helmet, before that, he met up with Hush. The beginning of the Red Hood.

Next I want to focus a bit on religious imagery. I am not a big fan of it in general, but considering that words like "Baptism" and "Benediction" are in the titles, it is note-worthy. If it is something you're uncomfortable with, feel free to skip this section

I have seen people make the point that this cover:

Has similarities to pictures of Mary holding a dead Jesus.

And now that I think about it more, I can see why and they are pretty good stand-ins.

Jason came back from the dead, like Jesus.

Talia found Jason after he came back. She considers it a miracle. Like fate WANTS Jason to live. He wandered into her life. She isn't so much as interfering with fate, as stepping out of its way.

And then you have this page:

Jason as he has his arms spread wide, legs forming almost a straight line. Similar to Jesus on the cross.

The Lazarus pit isn't green. It's orange and yellow. It shines so bright. Ra's says it burns in his heart. He tells Talia it could turn Jason mad in a few months, years or decades. That she has unleashed a curse. A pestilence. Pestilence being one of the for Horsemen of the Apocalypse. And so, the Lazarus Pit becomes a symbol for Hell.

The fact that Jason and Talia are more distorted versions of the religious figures they could represent becomes more prominent as the story goes on. In the bible, Jesus goes back to Heaven to rejoin with his Father. In this story, Talia is told and knows that she should return Jason to Bruce. But she doesn't. Because Jason will see it as betrayal and he wouldn't forgive her for that.

My last and favourite point is how RH: LD is the perfect set up to Under the Red Hood.

Jason explains how it isn't about the Joker. Or Bruce. Or him. It's about the three of them.

Bruce was supposed to protect him.

Joker killed him.

Bruce didn't avenge him.

He tried to kill both of them only to NOT do it and walk away.

Jason died away from Gotham in Ethiopia, but not before being beaten with a crowbar, the building he was in having exploded and then asphyxiating due to the smoke.

Jason almost killed the Joker by setting him on fire. (Explosion)

He initially wanted to do it in another location. (Ethiopia)

He wanted to do it slowly. (Crowbar)

Jason says when the pain would hit the Joker, he would scream. Until it hit his throat. His lungs. (Asphyxiating)

He is reliving his own death. He wants his murderer to go through the agony he did. An eye for an eye one could say.

"Reliving his own death" is an objective statement here, as Jason sees the Joker swinging a crowbar that is dripping with his own blood while at the same time also standing right above the Joker, who is drenched in gasoline.

Now I want you to compare these two scenes. This is when he was about to kill the Joker:

The panels switch between Jason and the firelighter, present Joker and past Joker. The firelighter, the device that would end the Joker's life, comes more and more into the focus. Until he disengages it on the last panel.

Now to the second scene, when Jason planted a bomb under the Batmobile and was about to detonate it.

The panels switch between Batman and Jason. Jason is hovering over the detonater. Until he pulls away.

When Jason explained to Talia why he walked away from the Joker, he said that it wasn't enough. It was only ever about the three of them, not just Joker. His plan doesn't include murdering Batman anymore.

But the reason Jason gave Talia why he didn't kill Bruce? "I couldn't let him get off so easy. He'd never know what happened. He'd never know knwo why. He'd never know it was me." One could wonder if we are supposed to see this as a parallel as well. If we should apply this reasoning of why he didn't kill Bruce to why he didn't kill Joker.

The Joker would never know why Jason killed him. He doesn't even know that it IS Jason who is about to murder him.

And while is plan doesn't include killing Bruce anymore. Nobody said anything about the Joker.

As I said, perfect setup to Under the Red Hood.

#I loved analysing this #jason todd #red hood #dc #dc comics #batman #batman comics #bruce wayne #dc joker #joker #the joker #jason peter todd #red hood comics #red hood lost days #character analysis #comic analysis #comic panels #jason todd meta #talia al ghul #religious imagery #religious themes #comic panel #comic #comics

[danothan]

started reading robin 2021 and i wanted to take the time to appreciate two of the most beautiful spreads in issue #1. they captivated me with how gorgeous and momentous they felt, which must have been the point bc i ended up staring at them sm that the symbolism finally kicked in

SPREAD 1:

1) LOVE the red and green at play, it’s such a difficult color scheme to get right lest you end up making the whole piece feel like a christmas card, but gleb melnikov pulled it off. the environment is rich and elegant and well-contrasted; it rly brings out damian’s classic red/green robin combo, even tho he’s not actually wearing his robin suit here. the green of his clothing highlights the green of talia’s, as well as the assassin’s tattoos, and, when combined with the cool-toned background, makes the red just pop out at you. pretty palette aside, it’s a very calculated choice in colors.

2) speaking of red, melnikov rly wanted you to notice the blood in these two pages. from the emphasis of the words DEMON BLOOD to the reflection of damian in the blood puddle, it only draws attention to the fact that his blade is perfectly clean of it in the second panel. one can only assume that talia killed that guy so hard that damian’s sword was caught in the collateral (damn talia !). it frames damian as the one to land the killing blow, as though his doubts/restraint with killing mean nothing because he still has the blood on his hands, blood passed down from talia. that doesn’t necessarily make it true ofc, but it does give us a reflection of his mindset with the blood acting as a literal mirror.

now before we delve into the second spread, lemme preface this with some context: many characters will refer to damian as an actual bird (“what better way to take out a robin than with a hawke,” “i’ve fought little birds like you before,” etc.) which speaks to his reputation, but i think it’s most notable when coming from talia:

at first, it’s used condescendingly, as it usually is from most ppl, and she speaks in a possessive tone when she talks abt returning him to the nest. she even tells him that if he IS to be taken under her wing, she would not treat him as her son but as a weapon. however, we know that this contradicts her intentions as she later uses the same “baby bird” petname as a term of endearment, even to calling him her son—notably when he is out of earshot.

you get the sense that they have this unspoken code of conduct around each other—family dynamics tend to be rigid in that way—but there’s also this feeling of regret as well as unfamiliarity navigating it coming from talia. i mean, she said it herself: damian was just a baby bird. he flew out of the nest too early.*

*see read more

so why does she taunt him for running back to his mother? why is she pushing him away? and why does she monologue for so long that she lets her guard down and closes her eyes long enough for him to disappear…?

SPREAD 2:

BECAUSE DAMIAN IS JUMPING OUT OF THE HELICOPTER!!! BECAUSE TALIA IS PUSHING HIM OUT OF THE NEST !!!!

talia doubled down on her militaristic plans as an opening for damian to leave. with that sense of regret mentioned earlier, talia knows she raised damian under harsh conditions, but she doesn’t know to raise him differently either, so she urges him to find his own path. presenting “the way of the demon or the way of the bat” as the only 2 options to her already rebellious son was guaranteed sabotage. she pushed him too early when he was younger, but she knows that her baby bird is ready to fly now :”)

bonus: what a classic jason todd move to wear a mask underneath your mask btw. guess it just runs in the family! (but on a deeper, unironic level, damian switches out both his robin and his demon suit into this new one. this obviously symbolizes his forging a new path, but also reveals his intent/doubts abt the whole confrontation. a mask underneath his mask? he was never truly looking to rejoin the league. after running away from bruce, he runs to talia to test the waters and see if he would do better there. and when it ends in the same shadowing of an ambitious parent, he ditches the whole thing. the fact that he had a back-up plan meant that his heart wasn’t in it, just as talia’s heart wasn’t in keeping him caged. a confirmation bias given permission by a mother’s facade. god, the al ghul mindgames are truly smth to behold)

*so much can be said abt how talia’s approach to parenting parallels and contrasts bruce’s. they both have the same good intentions for their son, and they both realize that he’s too young to face what he had and what he’s abt to. but talia wants to start the healing process of her control in his upbringing, and bruce wants to prevent damian from having to face it alone knowing firsthand what suffering he “endured to become batman.” one is letting go, the other is desperate to bring him back.

it’s such a fascinating look into the push and pull of their fatal flaws and mistakes as parents, as well as making them feel human and reasonable within the limits of all they know and are capable of. OF COURSE they’re overcompensating for their regrets, that’s just so… them!

and the fact that you can see both parents’ traits and influence in damian as he searches for his own identity just makes the whole family feel well-rounded. robin 2021 is so good you guys, it’s too fucking good

#damian wayne #damian al ghul #talia al ghul #bruce wayne #batman #dc #robin #robin 2021 #panels #meta #danbles #long post #alt text #described #no spoilers please i only just finished issue 2 🫶 #god i can’t wait to get to talia and damian’s reunion that shit looked tense

[damianbugs]

Don't we all just love it when EVEN IF A FICWRITER portraits Talia as positive character AND shows Damian's trust and calmness when talking to her (in the fic he's always scared around the others - Bruce, Tim, etc.), people just can't accept it and keep see her as horrible IN THE FIC. Just why?..... 😭Like, we're not even talking about Morrison's canon, we're literally only talking about tHE FIC. READERS, WHY.

sorry, just screaming because you seem to be upset with Talia treatment too.

it is racism and misogyny my friend 😔 fandoms with white male dominated characters tend to be ignornant as a given, but the batfamily fandom specifically has a very big issue when it comes to how brown and black characters are perceived. i'll stick to just talking about talia in this, but it applies to other characters too.

talia gets double the horrible press because not only is she a person of colour, but also a woman of colour. like you said, comic writers (read: GRANT MORRISON) established this horrific characterisation of her and for many years the other stories followed this and it rewrote her entire personality. thankfully, more recent comic writers (read: ram v ❤️) are tackling this and rewriting her already rewritten character — but i am afraid the damage is already done. this is only made worse by the animated movies and shows ALSO adopting this version of talia as their base character.

now when it comes to fics you get two terrible outcomes: people who only know morrisons talia and write her based on those comics, or the more often seen, people who don't read comics but read fics written with morrison talia and assume this is how she has always been. then there's the third more sinister thing of people who Know this characterisation is racist and ooc, but use it anyway because it gives way for them to write whump and angst about one of the sad pathetic white boys.

this creates what you mention about readers who for some reason only accept this HEAVILY CRITICISED characterisation and RETCONNED actions and refuse to see her as anything more than the evil brown lady. especially when it comes to damian fics, she is often written as this caricature of stereotypes in order to highlight how his white american family "saved" him from his abusive uncivilised middle-eastern family. the ignorance and racism is very poorly hidden when you say it how it is.

i give people the benefit of the doubt, because yk, sometimes they honestly don't know the racism and microaggression that was put into her rewrite and they're not aware of who she was before grant morrison got their claws into her. they're just ignornant and not educated on this topic, and thats not their fault.

but once readers and writers ARE aware of this and continue to perpetuate it — then they're just as racist and misogynistic as the rest of them 🤷🏾‍♀️

#karma will get them all eventually dont worry about it #talia al ghul #dc meta

[redwiccanrobin]

It’s truly a tragedy that so many writers just make Talia a female version of Ra’s.

There’s the obvious reason, right? I hate that she’s not allowed to be her own unique character but instead a carbon copy of another. I hate that everything that made Talia Talia is now obsolete when these writers come in. Those are the easy reasons to hate this characterization. And they’re valid, very very valid. But there are other reasons for this hatred I have.

In the 90s, she was able to escape his shadow. Slowly build a life for herself outside of his empire. She was probably learning things about herself that she couldn’t when she was nothing more than the demon’s daughter. Throughout this point, she didn’t want him to find her. Lex Luther used that against her for his satisfaction. She was moving on, didn’t have any want to go back to Ra’s. She loves her father deeply, but she was tired of the life he set for her. So, she left. She left and, for the first time in her life, did things that were meant for her and her alone.

Then Morrison came along. They wrote her so horrifically that other writers followed in their footsteps. Even outside of the comics, writers portray her to be the ultimate evil. Sometimes they try to make her worse than Ra’s; Batman: Bad Blood comes to mind for that.

This is not me saying I hate Ra’s. I love him, he’s my favorite Batman villain. What I hate is the continued demonization of Talia. We’ve slowly been getting more and more people writing her in the way O’Neil envisioned. And for that, I’m thankful. But it’s a tragedy that it’s taken this long to undo the damage that was caused via Morrison.

#dc comics #talia al ghul #batman meta #batman #from my drafty attic

[orange-s-mario]

Wayne Family Tree Version 4(?) I forgot about like 2 characters and ALSO apparently silencer is a clone???? anyways this should be it... No more batfamily secret relatives please still not including future descendants, sorry Helena Wayne, and others

#wayne family tree #batfam #bruce Wayne #Lance Bruner #Dick Grayson #Jason Todd #Tim Drake #damian wayne meta #Batman #Nocturna #Robin #Natalia Knight #William Cobb #Tony Zucco #Talia Head #Talia al Ghul #Ra's al Ghul #Respawn #Willis Todd #Faye Gunn #David Cain #Kate Kane #Kathy Kane #Bette Kane #Red Alice #Wingman (Willis Todd) #Adeline Kane #Joey Wilson #Rose Wilson #Grant Wilson

[devine-fem]

He was asking… a question.

What genuinely hurts me is that being able to relate to a similar situation like this that Damian didn’t ask this to be snide or smart in reply to his guardian.

He was genuinely asking a question.

Like does he genuinely have to spend his whole life trying to be something you want him to be, when you take his childhood, his choice, and his anatomy then what does he truly have left?

He’s spent so much time trying to be perfect for you because he feels like love isn’t something that is to be given but something that is earned. There are ten years of his life that he still hasn’t gotten off his chest and even still as Robin, I doubt he holds much of a choice - still he’s tied to some sort of destiny, and at the end of the Ra’s Al Ghul Resurrection event Bruce mentions that Damian deserves some time not to having a destiny. When does having a path pathed for you stops becoming liberating and starts becoming suffocating?

I seriously hope that somewhere down the line Damian can make a choice based on no hand that’s been dealt to him but the choice he made all by himself and then he owns it.

Till then, baby bird.

#morrison i will find you for doing this to talia #damian wayne #talia al ghul #damian wayne meta #batfam #bruce wayne #dc comics

[yvtro]

the relationship between talia and jason is so special to me, because if anyone, it’s talia that can be inspiring to jay and make him find a golden mean or at least an alternative for his ways. talia is a humanitarian, she’s caring and kind, but she also doesn’t believe in moral absolutes. she doesn’t make killing her primary method, but she’s not beneath it. she also knows what it feels like to be trapped in someone else’s crusade and limited worldview; and she finds a way to free herself from it and form her own set-up for fighting for what she believes in. and while doing it, she doesn’t sacrifice any part of herself. she allows herself to love still, and for that to be her guiding principle.

jason needs all of that. he needs this healthy balance of realism and idealism, and he needs to see that one can outlive their trauma without suppressing their kindness. that you might need to make hard decisions to save and protect people, but you shouldn’t make a dogma from it. he can learn it from her.

another thing is that talia would make it so easy. when she looks at jason, she doesn’t see what the rest of his family does. she didn’t really know him before he died; she’s not grieving him. she’s getting to know him from scratch, as he is after his resurrection. and what she sees in him is boundless possibilities, as opposed to a dead boy.

#leave me alone i’m soft #oh this is about lexcorp talia of course #talia after that? i don’t know her #jason todd #talia al ghul #jay meta #dc comics

[fatheriimaginedyoutaller]

(SCRIPT PREVIEW)

Hey ya'll. Hope you're all having a great afternoon! I'm here to bring you a little update about this post.

After watching some video essays for inspiration, I began developing a draft for a script about Robin: Son of Batman (2015). Analyzing the story implications, themes and motifs! :)

And because ya'll been so supportive of my nerdy endeavours, you guys are getting a special preview of the aforementioned draft! (criticisms accepted of course!)

Part of the script avaliable under cut

tagging in: @fancyfade @fluffykitty149 @cleoeatsit

The first issue of the comic run starts with Damiam returning some sort of cultural artifacts to their rightful owners; an order of monks in mainland China.  So, immediately, we got this Tomb Raider/Indiana Jones kind of plot point.  

(Man I sure hope it doesn’t get abandoned halfway through and pivots to portraying  the replacement of an autocracy with another autocracy where the head of state its not even from the country as a good thing)

ahem…

He gets interrupted by League of Assassins members which he fights off with the help of his pet, Goliath the Bat-dragon. He wins said fight and is lavished for returning the sacred object by the locals

All while a masked figure is observing the scene while saying: 

“(...) there cannot be redemption for the year of the blood”

This introduction to the comic is interesting because it highlights the main narrative theme and framing device of the whole story: The Quest for Redemption.

Before we even know exactly what Damian is doing and why he's doing it. We know he's looking to mend a rift. To make a past wrongdoing right. And then we find out someone wants to stop him…

This forms an interesting parallel with real life survivors of schoolyard abuse aka bullying.

Now, hear me out…

 Many kids (especially those with conditions such as autism) are manipulated by their bullies into doing bad things to other children. They generally do this by preying on their loneliness and desire to be accepted by their peers. And so said kids carry out acts of hazing to other children, perpetuating a cycle of harm.

A cycle which is hard to escape from. Because if you hurt someone, regardless of if you were manipulated or not, that person will probably not trust you after the fact. And if you add into account the environment of a school, where rumors spread like wildfires, there's a high chance you develop a bad reputation. Cause other people have no way of knowing you did it while being threatened into being a social pariah. It's a no win situation.

Damian's story is simile to this. Sure, the acts he carried out were far more extreme and he was not manipulated by an outsider but by his own grandfather, Ra’s Al Ghul.  But the effects of his psyche, development and public perception are all the same.

Think about it: His claims to being either the Blood Son or the Grandson of the Demon  are basically him trying to justify his existence  to a family that, for all he knows, could abuse him again. Which leads him to having a thought process where he has to be the best of the best in the room, cause the only other alternative is death. and for that he’s punished. Even though no one ever bothered to teach him the normal social protocols for a boy his age. 

So when you make that reading of Damian, and put into the context of a story where he, by his own volition, decides he’s gonna try and reverse all the harm he caused while being essentially groomed. You get something really powerful.

Well…kind of…

There’s a few things that stuck out with the framing of this arc. The most glaring one being: this arc takes place after he comes back from the dead. After being trapped in hell for the better part of a year after being killed by his own clone.

By making Damian’s journey for redemption take place after he’s been through literal Hell, there’s the subtle implication that he’s not doing it out of his own free will, but to avoid some sort of celestial punishment.

And that’s not a bad idea per se, if the comic acknowledged that implication. Because it does put an interesting question into the table. “Does it matter why we do good things? As long as we do them?” Does it matter if Damian doesn’t kill anymore because of “selfish” reasons. After all, why would an orphan he saves from a fire care if he used to be bad or not? Should that matter to anyone?

That last part is a testament, I think, to how much better executed some ideas that writers at DC have would be if they played them straight. If they acknowledged the implications of their writing instead of just doing something because they thought it would be cool or dramatic. 

#my post #batman #damian wayne #dc comics #batfamily #robin #batfam #bruce wayne #talia al ghul #rsob #robin: son of batman #dc meta #character analysis #media analysis #literary analysis #meta

[buckybarnesss]

This is sort of an out of left field question- but what are your thoughts on Peter and Talia being half or step siblings?

Obviously, they don’t look alike very much. And clearly genes are funky things and this is not damning evidence. But I think it’s a very personal hc to me bc I myself have a half brother who I love very much, but it does influence our interactions.

One thing I constantly think about is Peter being an unreliable narrator. And what we see of Laura from his pov is different than Scott and Stiles finding her body. Is he imagining she’s blond and looks more like him? Yeah sure this could just be casting inaccuracies. But it feels very personal lol.

Has Peter always felt a degree of distance with his family? Where did the idea of him being Talia’s left hand come from? Wouldnt he have been there in the alpha pack flash back if that was the case? Was he younger than Laura? This also brings to mind Papa Hale (who I like to imagine was a human part of the pack/another pack before him and Talia were in a relationship). Was Talia always a Hale? Or married in?

Anyway, I have many thoughts and questions. But I really appreciate your analysis and insight. Joining a fandom past its prime (affectionate) is sort of like being in the apocalypse where 80% of the fandom is dead, and finding a ‘survivor’ is a miracle. Anyway, if you feel like it, I would love your thoughts on it all :3

if laura hale is my roman empire than talia and peter's relationship is my holy roman empire.

@dear-massacre and i talk about this quite frequently. it's a problem fam.

i do have a talia hale and peter hale and the hale family feels tags.

we don't really have any information other than some crumbs jeff has thrown us within canon.

in my opinion talia is the hale. there's no other option put forth. derek's father is such a non-entity that there's zero mention of him. the hales are clearly an old family of werewolves and were part of the very founding of beacon hills itself likely connected to the nemeton.

not to mention, season 3 has a lot to do with derek learning from and accepting talia's legacy and the legacy of the hale family. it also directly contrasts the argents. the argents pay lip service to being matriarchal but we know gerard has been calling the shots for decades whereas it seems as though the hales actually were.

so when you get down to it you can pretty much headcanon anything you want for how the exact specifics of how talia and peter are related but what we do know is talia was the older sibling and peter the younger.

peter doesn't actually talk about talia very much if at all. however, his monolog in monstrous is quite illuminating on peter's headspace while he was in a coma and pre-resurrection.

i predicted this. i told-i told talia this was going to happen... something like this was going to happen... i said that they were gonna come for us... " the argents, they're gonna come for us. they're gonna burn us to the ground-- burn us to the ground." did she listen? of course not! did anyone listen? they listened to her-- yes!-- say that everything was going to be fine. that we were all perfectly safe...perfectly safe... but she made us weak! she made us weak. and what happens to the weakest in the herd? they get picked off by the predators! we used to be the apex predators, until talia turned us into sheep.

with that said i do have my own ideas on their relationship given what we know. visionary is the episode that does the heavy lifting in the entire goddamn show in regards to this.

the age inconsistency comes from bringing back the younger actor from season 2 to play peter in visionary. it makes peter appear closer to derek's age than he actually is. i think it's almost part of peter's manipulations. it's his attempt to manipulate the audience as well just like he did lydia.

there's just simply no way talia hale didn't know about peter's everything. she was not only his older sister but she was his alpha. i think peter and talia may have been more similar than people want to believe.

peter is a lot of things. many of them contradictory. he loved his sister and clearly mourned her but that doesn't mean he didn't resent her just a little. he did still after all go with derek to retrieve her claws and i think there's something twisted up in him about how derek resembles her and begins to become more like her.

when you begin to sort of dig into what we know about the hale family the more one begins to question if talia was as benevolent as people assume she was. there's some seriously morally questionable things that occurred. talia did some shady things.

the real big one is that she coerced corrine into carrying her pregnancy with malia to term. the likely explanation is talia did this because she knew this would decrease corrine's power.

corrine is pretty explicit about this with what she says to malia:

you know, your real name isn't malia. you don't have a name. talia hale took you away from me before i could give you one.

and

corrine: i'm not going to stop, malia. i'm taking back what you stole from me. malia: i didn't steal anything. corrine: but you did. corrine: and I don't care if you're a willing participant or not. talia hale spent nine months trying to convince me of the miracle of childbirth. you know what it really felt like? a parasite. talia said it was a gift, that the coyote passes down part of her power to her daughter. she called it "beautiful." i call it "theft."

she also took peter's memories of malia's existence which considering peter's reaction doesn't seem like he had much say in. so in effect talia removed peter's agency.

she probably felt she had valid reason for doing these things. corrine was a threat and dangerous person but still it's really, really questionable. it still ended with malia's adoptive mother and sister being killed and malia going missing for years because corrine was vengeful over losing her power. talia was still alive when this happened.

of all people talia had to be aware of peter's -- you know -- everything and she probably held the leash. he wasn't a problem so long as she was the alpha and could control him.

talia also had to have been aware of and likely either approved of or encouraged him taking a mentor sort of role with derek. we see peter having a keen interest in derek in both visionary and the season 4 flashbacks.

like, who do we think ran off and told talia about what happened with derek and paige? who likely instructed peter on getting rid of paige's body and helping to cover up her death to protect derek and the family?

i actually fully believe she knew peter was skulking about the werewolf summit and may have even told him to do so.

talia is like the mona lisa smile of teen wolf. she's inscrutable but we get impressions about her and what she was like via the people that knew her. her children, her brother, her advisor and peers.

#my blog #thoughts on teen wolf #teen wolf #talia hale #peter hale #i really need to continue to sort my meta but it's so daunting #i write too much about this silly show

[linkspooky]

What are your thoughts on the Al ghuls?

My second favorite dysfunctional family (behind Slade Wilson, his ex-wife, his butler, his children and Terra which I collectively call the DeathFam). The Al Ghuls specifically Ra's Al Ghul and Talia are my favorite batman villains, sometimes anti-villain, and in Talia's case sometimes Anti-Hero (My Girl's got range.) Since you asked my thoughts I will try to give them as organized as possible but warning there are a lot.

1. On The League in General

The League, the Lazarus Pits, and the mythology surrounding them is one of the coolest parts of DC Lore in general. In my opinion the best portrayals of the league are when they are one hundred percent genuine about their ideals. One joke I like to make is that Poison Ivy and Ra's are both environmentalists, but unlike Poison Ivy R'as actually has a plan and resources. Ra's love for the world and his desire to save it is at the core of his character, and the reason he will not let himself die, or let go in any real way because his work is not done.

One aspect I do not like about the league is that they are supposed to be antagonists, but I wish Ra's plan was more developed than "kill a whole bunch of people so the resources can be split amongst the survivors." That's such a disagreeable plan Ra's point to make about how the whole planet is dying and nothing superheroes do is really fixing that problem is kind of lost. It's also as dumb as movie Thanos idea to snap and destroy half the life in the universe. If I were to tweak it, I would make Ra's agenda more in line of a communist revolution. That is get rid of the capitalistic systems that drive the destruction of earth's natural resources for endless production and profit. That change would make some of the leagues motivations and methods much more sympathetic.

The league would still be villains however, because even if in this tweaked versions their methods are understandable they're still a big huge cult. Which is an aspect that a lot of fans and sometimes comic writers seem to miss. In the microcosm (Ra's personal family) and the macrocosm (the whole league) the league is a cult centered entirely around Ra's ego, his ideals, his wishes. Even if you can sympathize with their ideas of revolution and go "Hey, that might work" the League is still going about it the wrong way because they constantly prey upon vulnerable minors and people on the edge of society and then raise them up into loyal pledges to a cause. A lot of real life fringe groups do this too. In this version the league recruits members because it's easier this way, which is in line with Ra's character. The whole conflict with Ra's is that he just will not let go of control, he talks about how he wants an heir to take over everything but that's never going to happen because he won't even let himself die. You could fix this too, take the league out of Ra's hands, reform it, and it could be a more genuine force for good. So yeah, my take is less the league isn't good because they assassinate politicians and have more revolutionary ideals, but rather the league is bad because they regularly groom minors.

2. Ra’s Al Ghul

Here is a comic panel of Daphne from Scooby Doo sword fighting Ra’s Al Ghul, mostly because I love it. 

Ra’s is THE Batman villain for me. If the Joker represents Batman’s completely anti-thesis, then Ra’s is Bruce, all of his ideals, his nobility, taken to their most logical extreme. He’s the definition of the noble demon. If you want to ready story arcs that I think show off Ra’s at his best, there’s the “Tower of God” storyline where Ra’s finds all of Batman’s measures against the Justice League he prepared in case any of them turned evil and then decides to use them himself. Then there is “Injustice 2″ which is one of the better depictions of Ra’s where he is at his most genuine to his goal of environmentalism and even at points sits down at the table to talk with the superheroes in a more peaceful manor on how they could be doing better. 

If the Tower of God storyline did not explain it to you, Ra’s reflects Bruce in good aspects and bad ones. The same relentless dedication that Bruce has to saving Gotham, Ra’s applies to the whole world. Ra’s also like other batman villains shows how a generally positive trait like Bruce’s insane levels of dedication can easily turn into a flaw. Bruce has no powers just his martial arts training, but just will not give up under any circumstances. Ra’s determination gets him into a horrible cycle of corrupting himself worse and worse over the years both due to overuse of the pits and also frustration at a world that refuses to change, and also shows in his inability to surrender power in any real way. 

The way Ra’s treats his direct family, and the league as a whole is also a dark mirror to Batman and the Bat Family. Now, I don’t believe that Bruce is raising up hero sidekicks as child soldiers... Suspension of disbelief people! However,  Ra’s genuinely does treat all of his children as tools for his agenda. As much as he has the capacity to love them, their needs and desires will always come second to his use for them. Ra’s is undeniably a groomer not in the sexual sense but in the sense he is using his position of power raising up and manipulating these minors to shape them into what he wants them to be. 

Ra’s also represents Bruce’s paranoia and the times where he abuses his position as patriarch of a family to manipulate his kids lives. Ra’s is undeniably the one who holds the most power in the Al Ghul family, and he uses that imbalance in power entirely to his own ends. What he creates is a cycle of generational abuse that lasts all the way until Damian.  Ra’s also represents Bruce’s sometimes toxic ideas of masculinity turned up to 11. My man is a 400 year old misogynist. He is obsessed with ideas like divine birthright, dynasty, legacy as shown by the way he once again treats his children. His oldest son is disqualified for being albino and therefore having a defect, Nyssa and Talia are disqualified for being born women. The fact that Bruce represents his ideal heir and he is a man with money and power the peak of what society considers is masculinity is you know, telling of his opinions towards gender. Bruce and Ra’s are both carriers of family legacies, who devote all of their money and power to their genuinely good goals, but Ra’s seems to believe that might makes right, the money, resources and bloodline he has makes him inherently better or even chosen. Which cycles into the reason why he will never let go of said power. 

3. Talia Al Ghul 

Talia is my favorite member of the family, she is also hardest to talk about because she suffers from two things number one being wildly different depending on the writer, and two orientalism. Now I won’t discuss this much not because I don’t think it’s important but because I’m not qualified to talk on such subjects and a practicer of the “stay in your own lane” philosophy. The orientalism in Talia’s character is undeniably there, and also a part of a pattern in DC where female brown mothers are regularly villainized to make their white fathers look better. I think Grant Morrison’s take on Talia is inherent dehumanizing of her and kind of reducing her to a plot object, and also a deviation from the original ideas her character was meant to represent. I think also Talia has a habit of being reduced to her relationships to the men in her life rather than her own person with you know thoughts and feelings. Women have those. The league also as a whole is orientalist as a concept there’s really no getting away from that. 

Just as an example of how Talia and Damian’s relationship could be better depicted than it currently is in comics. There’s a storyline in the fourth season of Young Justice that I really like (even though I don’t like the cartoon that much) which explores the family dynamic between Cheshire, Roy and Lian. Cheshire attempted to stay with Roy to raise Lian for awhile, until she went back to the lifestyle and could not give it up. Her sister Artemis eventually goes after her and it’s revealed that Cheshire left Lian with Roy not because she chose being an assasin over her but Cheshire believes she is inherently bad and harmful person and has too much in common with her abusive father and if she is in that kid’s life she will only hurt them. It also ends on a hopeful note that if Cheshire puts the work in on becoming a more emotionally healthy version of herself she could return to that household. 

Now that that disclaimer is out of the way (please don’t yell at me for this I love Talia. If you want to discuss it further please use my askbox, I don’t like it when people reblog my posts to argue with me.) The most interesting aspect of the Demon’s Head is the generational abuse storyline. There’s no two ways about it, Talia repeats the cycle with Damian. That’s what makes abuse generational. Once again the whole storyline from conception of Talia having a secret love child with Bruce is kind of orientalist but you have to work with the plotline you got. At least until somebody retcons it. 

Now I am going to go on a long diatribe on how Talia repeating a cycle of abuse that starts with Ra’s does not make her an inherently bad person. This is where I am qualified to talk because I’ve done a lot of research into this subject! Talia grew up in a cult. Not only that she was the direct daughter of the cult’s leader. In the microcosm Ra’s family is what you would call a Narcisstic Family Structure: a family centered around one person’s individual needs where the other’s needs go underlooked. In the macrocosm it’s a goddamn cult. 

People view members of cults as either stupid, or immoral for joining because they imagine it could never happen to them, but the way cults work is by preying on vulnerabilities every single person has. 

No one joins a cult voluntarily; they are recruited into it. There is lack of informed consent. Everyone has vulnerabilities. Possible situational vulnerabilities include illness, the death of a loved one, breakup of an important relationship, loss of a job, or moving to another city, state or country. [x]

Haruki Murakami wrote a book named “Underground: The Tokyo Gas Attack and the Japanese Psyche.” It is a non-fiction book containing several interviews of victims in the aftermath of the Saren Gas Attacks. This is a real life event where the Aum Shinrikyo Cult convinced its members to release Saren gas in several subway trains. While the attack was viewed by society as an act of fringe extremists, the cult was made up of members who were educated people, doctors, lawyers, who were still somehow convinced this was a good idea. 

The interviews highlight many intriguing aspects of the Japanese psyche. Work was a high, if not central, priority for most of the interviewees. Isolation, individualism, and lack of communication were also strong themes which were common throughout many accounts of the attacks. Many of the interviewees expressed disillusionment with the materialism in Japanese society and the sensationalistic media, as well as the inefficiency of the emergency response system in dealing with the attack.

The book also includes Murakami's personal essay on the attacks, "Blind Nightmare: Where Are We Japanese Going?" In this essay, he criticizes the failure of the Japanese to learn from the attacks, preferring to dismiss it as the extreme act by a group of lunatics rather than analyze the true causes and prevent similar events from occurring in the future.

I bring this up once again to reinforce the idea that anyone can be preyed upon by a cult, and Talia was literally born into that environment. Clts also operate with a specific method of cutting off their members from the outside world to cut off their ability to leave (BITE: Behavior Control, Information Control, Thought Control, Emotional Control). Talia grew up in an environment where most likely all her social interactions and her contact with the outside world was controlled by Ra’s and only Ra’s because in most versions her mother dies early in her life usually in some horrific way. 

That’s not even getting to the kind of parent that Ra’s is. He is always a really outwardly loving parent to Talia, but that love comes with a big huge asterisk. Ra’s loves his children until they either have a defect, or they decide to be someone other than what he wants them to be, at which point he either cuts them off, or relies on emotional manipulation to regain control. Talia’s only parental figure was both extremely loving, but made it clear that love was conditional. Even if Talia tries to live up to Ra’s expectations of her and be what he wants her to be, she’s immediately disqualified from actually taking on the mantle she was groomed for her entire life by being a woman. Even the original concept of Talia’s character who is much more anti-hero than anti-villain chooses her father over Bruce at times because Ra’s conditional love is what she knows, whereas Bruce’s love for her is something she does not understand fully even if she desires it. 

I’m going to bring up my favorite comic book character Terra here. Terra was also a character who her creators have said several disrespectful things about and she was not created by the best of intentions. However, Terra is a unique character because she is one of the few grooming and CSA victims who is allowed to be downright unlikable, to show her trauma in what are considered to be traditionally bad ways. She’s a character with flaws and agency and stuff. Terra represents a specific kind of fifteen year old kid who usually does not get help and adults believe is a lost cause. Characters who carry Terra’s trauma either magically get over it, or they are just reduced to weak, pitiful shells. I’d rather have Terra be the mess she is than either of those things. It’s honest to a reality that certain people face, and also shows victims who would not normally get sympathy. 

I just went to great length to establish the horror of Talia’s upbringings so she’d undeniably be affected by it. I won’t even mention what kind of mother Talia is because wildly depends on the author, but the decision to raise Damian in that cult rather than try to leave is her perpetuating the cycle. This is something that happens in real life too, parents who are preyed upon by cults will either drag their kids into it, or raise them up in that same life when they are young and vulnerable. It’s undeniably something she did to Damian and deserves to be called out on. 

If Talia shares Ra’s nobility and idealism she also reflects his bad qualities as well, his belief in special people, of causes that succeed individuals, of noble purposes. Especially since these are toxic ideas that Ra’s has essentially forced onto her. I don’t even think Talia is past the point of redemption or incapable of learning to be a better mother, because while abuse is a chain it’s also a chain that can be broken. 

4. Damian Wayne / Al-Ghul

To begin with I don’t think Bruce is a good parent to Damian, and Talia is a bad one. They both kind of fail Damian in equal and totally different ways. I don’t believe Robin is a child soldier, but right away making Damian Robin is kind of a mistake because Bruce makes him Robin to try to fix some perceived flaw from being raised by the League, when really Damian is more or less just a ten year old kid reacting how any ten year old kid would if they were groomed their entire life and had that kind of destiny practically forced upon them. 

The difference between Talia and Damian is of course, Damian got out of there which gives him a unique opportunity that Talia didn’t to make connections outside of the League and to the outside world and therefore learn to think in different ways then how he was raised to think. Damian represents the chance to break the cycle of generational abuse passed down from grandfather, to mother, to son. 

Because like I said Damian reserves the right to call out his mother for not choosing to put him first, but at the same time Damian undeniably loves his mother. Even in the storylines where they have a strained relationship at best Damian is fiercely loyal to her because essentially Damian and Talia want the same thing which is to have a loving family of their own, and to be their own people outside of their usefulness to other people (cough, cough, Ra’s). 

Damian’s character arc tends to repeat a lot but there are more modern storylines that are pushing Damian in this direction where his goal is a reconciliation of the past and to be able to move on with a healthier version of their relationship. Ra’s getting shot in the head helped a whole lot. 

Damian represents a chance to break the cycle for both himself and his mom, because like I said Talia isn’t an inherently bad person, or a bad parent, she just like anybody else has an opportunity to grow and develop as a person especially if one day she gets to finally move on from the league. People can be influenced by circumstances, but also circumstances change and in better environments people have a chance to do better. Damian isn’t obligated to forgive either parent for the ways they’ve failed him but at the same time he clearly wants a connection with both of his parents, and is willing to work with them on it. 

It is funny how Damian typically gets portrayed as the edgy Robin, because in my mind he’s actually one of the most normal ones. He acts like a thirteen year old boy, with the needs of a thirteen year old boy, he desires a normal life outside of capes and costumes. He just has been told he’s the chosen one all his life and that’s had an effect on the way he views the world. Damian has every chance to break the chain that Ra’s started though, and that’s probably where the comics should go if they didn’t repeat the same plotline with him like nine million times. 

#league of assassins #league of shadows #batman #ra's al ghul #talia al ghul #damian wayne #al ghul family #demon's head #dc #dc comics #dc comics meta