#jedi discourse

[the-far-bright-center]

'I had a mother who loved me'

(aka, the Jedi Order is NOT Anakin's family)

This is a topic that I've seen discussed elsewhere and I felt compelled to add my own thoughts. I've seen some takes I vehemently disagree with, especially regarding Shmi and Little Ani in TPM, and Anakin's 'decision' to leave with Qui-Gon. It's crazy how some people will blame little Ani for 'wanting' to be a Jedi, yet apparently Luke in ANH is allowed to want this, even though Luke likewise barely knows anything about what being a Jedi entails, and even though it's much more risky (and, frankly, far more unrealistic) to dream of becoming a Jedi in the Dark Times era?? As if a nine-year-old slave-boy wanting to take part in his new-found freedom by learning to be something he associates with heroism means he somehow 'should have known' he wasn’t going to be a ‘good fit’ for the Order. My argument is that there was nothing wrong with Anakin, and there was in fact no legitimate reason for him or ANYONE ELSE to believe he'd not be good at using the Force to help others (which is what the Jedi are supposed to do), especially when he had literally just done so in the pod-race. The whole reason Qui-Gon noticed Anakin was because of how strong in the Force he already was, even untrained. Qui-Gon has faith in him, it's just the Jedi Council that doubts him. Because, unlike Qui-Gon who perceives Anakin's positive qualities and potential, Yoda and the Jedi Council are afraid of him. Because Anakin is basically an 'unknown' (read: uncontrollable) entity suddenly in their midst.

While the Prequels film-canon stands on its own in this regard, we can also look to the novelizations for even more emphasis on this topic. In the TPM novelization, several things are noteable: first of all, even before Qui-Gon arrives, Anakin has had prophetic dreams about becoming a Jedi. And since Shmi is aware that Ani's dreams and visions do often come to pass, when Qui-Gon appears and offers to take him away to be trained, why wouldn't she think that maybe this was somehow Force (or Fate) ordained? And that therefore it was the right thing to do to let him go? And the second thing, is while it's also clear that Little Ani (like Luke!) has a romanticised view of what being a Jedi might be like, his actual motivation for becoming a Jedi is not simply because he 'selfishly' wants to embark on some fun adventure without his mom. On the contrary, every. single. time. little Ani thinks about the possibility of becoming a Jedi or leaving Tatooine, it's directly in relation to eventually returning to FREE his mother and the rest of the slaves:

He was several things in the course of his dreams. Once he was a Jedi Knight, fighting against things so dark and insubstantial he could not identify them. Once he was a pilot of a star cruiser, taking the ship into hyperspace, spanning whole star systems on his voyage. Once he was a great and feared commander of an army, and he came back to Tatooine with ships and troops at his command to free the planet’s slaves. His mother was waiting for him, smiling, arms outstretched.

and

He gazed skyward, his mother's hand resting lightly on his arm, and thought about what it would be like to be out there, flying battle cruisers and fighters, traveling to far worlds and strange places. He didn't care what Wald said, he wouldn't be a slave all his life. Just as he wouldn't always be a boy. He would find a way to leave Tatooine. He would find a way to take his mother with him. His dreams whirled through his head as he watched the stars, a kaleidoscope of bright images. He imagined how it would be. He saw it clearly in his mind, and it made him smile.

Anakin wants to escape slavery and train as a Jedi so he can come back and continue helping his friends and family on Tatooine. So he can return to free the slaves. Little does he know that he won't be allowed to do that... :'(

It's important to note as well that at this point, Anakin *also* has no idea that, as a Jedi, he won't be allowed to get married and have a family. Even though he is already naively imagining himself someday marrying Padme. So he doesn't know that not only will he not be permitted to return for his mother as he'd always hoped, but he will also technically not be allowed to even have a family of his own even when he's old enough to do so.

And what of Shmi's thoughts on Anakin becoming a Jedi? At the start of the AotC novelization, she is trying to be happy with the thought of it, but ONLY because she believes he must be living his best life as a Jedi. She has no idea that he had to go through rejection first before being accepted into the Order. The AotC novelization shows that as Shmi is being held captive and tortured by the Tusken Raiders, she tries to comfort herself by holding onto her imagination of what Anakin's time as Jedi is like:

All those times staring up at the night sky, she had thought of him, had imagined him soaring across the galaxy, rescuing the downtrodden, saving planets from ravaging monsters and evil tyrants. But she had always expected to see [Ani] again, had always expected him to walk onto the moisture farm one day, that impish smile of his, the one that could light up a room, greeting her as if they had never been apart.

Heartbreakingly, as Shmi is being brutalised to death, she clings to the hope that her beloved Ani's life is now better than it was before, and that it was worth saying farewell to him all those years ago, even while simultaneously desperately longing to see him again.

As an aside, it aggravates me to no end that *cough* certain parts of this fandom perpetuate the idea that Shmi is just some blank, wholly selfless entity with no wants or desires of her own. That she's the ‘perfect’ example of a Jedi with no 'attachments' (aka an Old Order Jedi), and that somehow Anakin is a just a 'failure' compared to her. Yes, it could be argued that Shmi is shown to be a better or truer 'Jedi' than most of the other Jedi in the story (aside from Luke in RotJ), but guess what that would mean in that case? (Hint: it has to do with love and family.) Because first and foremost, Shmi is a MOTHER who is trying to do the best for her son, even though a piece of her heart is always missing while he is gone. The AotC novelization shows repeatedly that she tries to assure herself that she did the right thing by letting Ani go, but the human mother side of herself also cries out for him and misses him desperately. She might have let him go in TPM, but in AoTC she wants to see him again. In fact, she believes strongly that she will see him again (because she loves him and he’s her hero because she’s his mom and she trusts he will eventually come back to find her), which is the only thing keeping her holding on until he arrives. How can Shmi be a perfect example of an Old Order Jedi when the motivating factor for even her most selfless actions is her personal FAMILIAL attachment to and unconditional LOVE for Anakin?? Also, how insulting is it to claim that Anakin is a 'failure' in comparison to his 'wonderful, perfect mother', and then proceed to place all the blame on him for being said 'failure'....when he was shown on-screen to be doing just fine in taking after his mother prior to his time in the Jedi Order????

As another poster noted elsewhere, Shmi Skywalker is the only person responsible for the truly good person Anakin Skywalker was.

This is the heart of the entire saga. Anakin's True Self is good because of his mother. Because of how she raised him (to be selfless and to want to help others) and because of the unconditional LOVE she had for him. It was the Jedi Order that failed to provide that for Anakin, and Sidious who manipulated the situation to his advantage.

(And if Shmi was the only person who truly solidified Anakin's inner goodness, then Qui-Gon was the only Jedi who was presented as being equipped to bring out the best in Anakin when Shmi wasn't around. The only one who was prepared to act as an openly warm and compassionate parental figure to Anakin, the only one who could have properly mentored Anakin and helped him navigate both his Force powers as well as the Jedi Code, and the only one who was shown to be willing to stand up to the Council on Anakin's behalf. The tragedy is not that Qui-Gon found Anakin or even that he offered to take him to train in the Force. Rather, the tragedy is that Qui-Gon is slain in the Duel of the Fates, which leaves Anakin without a true protector and advocate in the Order, and allows Sidious an 'in'.)

So the idea that the Jedi Order is Anakin's ‘replacement family' is simply not true—certainly not in the way the story actually pans out. It's telling that, in the original Prequels-era EU, Anakin ran away from the Jedi Temple multiple times. That is NOT the behaviour of a happy child. (It is, however, typical behaviour for children who are struggling in institutionalised care.)

And indeed, the very first paragraph of the AotC novelization opens with Anakin dreaming that he is part of a warm, loving family:

His mind absorbed the scene before him, so quiet and calm and...normal. It was the life he had always wanted, a gathering of family and friends—he knew that they were just that, though the only one he recognized was his dear mother. This was the way it was supposed to be. The warmth and the love, the laughter and the quiet times. This was how he had always dreamed it would be, how he had always prayed it would be. The warm, inviting smiles. The pleasant conversation. The gentle pats on the shoulders. But most of all there was the smile of his beloved mother, so happy now, no more a slave. When she looked at him, he saw all of that and more, saw how proud she was him, how joyful her life had become.

Why would Anakin be dreaming longingly of being part of an openly loving, happy family if he already had that at the Jedi Temple? (Tellingly, he notes that this seems like something normal, as if he's aware that it ought to be commonplace despite the fact that it's currently missing from his own life.)

And later on, when he's visiting Padme's parents' house for dinner, he sees this exact type of scene he's been longing for play out right in front of him, and he wishes that his mother could be there to enjoy it, too:

Anakin took a good helping of several different dishes. The food was all unfamiliar, but the smells told him that he wouldn’t be disappointed. He sat quietly as he ate, listening with half an ear to the chatter all about him. He was thinking of his mom again, of how he wished he could bring her here, a free woman, to live the life she so deserved.

Note that Anakin is thinking about his mother, and putting her first in his mind. He can barely enjoy the meal while he believes his mother could be out there, suffering.

Later on as he and Padme are heading to Tatooine to search for Shmi, they bond over the fact that both their mothers told them the same nursery rhyme ('home again to rest'). It means a lot to Anakin that he can bond with Padme over this similar childhood memory. (No doubt something he would not have had in common with his peers in the Temple, since their only childhood memories would have been within the Jedi Order, rather than in a true home. And certainly not with a mother.)

Finally, we get to the RotS novelization. Yes, THAT one. The one in which we see that Anakin was perfectly willing to walk away from the Order the minute he returned from the war and discovered Padme was pregnant. Willing to walk away to start their FAMILY together. But then his nightmares began, and he reluctantly stayed just a little longer, thinking the Jedi (whom he originally joined with the express intent of wanting to help his loved ones) could offer him some solution to the horror his nightmares were showing him:

If not for his dreams, he’d withdraw from the Order today. Now. ...Let the scandal come; it wouldn’t destroy their lives. Not their real lives. It would destroy only the lives they’d had before each other: those separate years that now meant nothing at all.

To drive the point home, we also have the pivotal scene where Obi-Wan—speaking on the Council's behalf—tries to convince Anakin to spy on the Chancellor. Their exchange says it all:

"He's my friend, Obi-Wan." "I know." "If he asked me to spy on you, do you think I would do it? You know how kind he's been to me. You now how he's looked after me, how he's done everything he could to help me. He's like family." "The Jedi are your family." "No. No, the Jedi are your family. The only one you've ever known. I had a mother who loved me."

Anakin's story breaks my heart because all he wants—all he has ever wanted—is a family. Not to just to 'have' one in a vague sense, but to be PART OF ONE. He wants this, because even when he was slave living an unfree life, at least he had his mother. At least he could feel his mother's love, and could openly demonstrate his love to her in return. For Anakin Skywalker, being a Jedi was never the goal in and of itself. In his mind, it was always primarily a means to save those he loved. To save his family. This is simultaneously the most tragic and the most beautiful thing about his character. It is both his fall AND his redemption.

And those who insist on ignoring Anakin’s deep-seated longing for a family and want to act as though he should just be content with the Jedi Order instead are willfully missing the entire point of his story.

#Anakin Skywalker #Shmi Skywalker #mother and son #the jedi order #jedi discourse #the prequels #tpm novelization #aotc novelization #rots novelization #the skywalkers #skywalker family #the skywalker saga #the real skywalker saga #love and family #love can ignite the stars #the barest flicker of persistent light

[nateofgreat]

The “Jedi order deserved death because they were flawed (i. e. not 100% pure)” argument is complete crap, as you might as well drop on nuke on every living sentient being in the entire galaxy because there’s not a single person who doesn’t have imperfections. Also why do people never point fingers at the actual evil in the galaxy, Palpatine; the guy who went on to do far worse than anything than the Jedi ever did. Every time people try to justify the destruction of the Jedi Order for the whatever idiotic reason, they also justify decades of countless innocent lives lost and suffering at the hands of the Empire.

Yeah that's the thing isn't it? For all the criticism the Jedi Order gets for being "flawed" everyone else was a lot worse and failed just the same. In fact the Jedi came closer than everyone else to stopping Palpatine, if Anakin hadn't interfered Mace Windu would've straight-up killed Sidious and prevented the Galactic Empire.

Meanwhile the Republic elected Palpatine into power and kept voting him more and more influence until they ultimately let him appoint himself Emperor to thunderous applause. Yet I don't see anyone protesting it being recreated after the Empire's collapse.

Heck, why stop there? Why not say the same about every other faction in SW? Apparently you're either absolutely perfect or you deserve to go down in a fireball!

The only argument I've seen in response is something like; "The Jedi are supposed to be better and they still failed!" Which is a silly excuse because everyone fails at some point and the Jedi succeeded at their goal for a thousand generations beforehand.

Heck even after their brief extinction period they bounce right back and save the Galaxy again via Luke. I don't know why people forget that, Luke's very much a Jedi Knight himself.

So after 1,000 generations of success there's a brief, 30 year period of defeat, followed by the Jedi winning the Galaxy back. And even if you take the Sequels into account that's another few years of chaos that the Jedi (literally all of them via Rey) put an end to yet again.

The Jedi like every other organization is one filled with imperfect people who sometimes make mistakes. But they're got a pretty darn good track record at saving the Galaxy and are good people besides.

#Star Wars #Pro Jedi #In defense of the Jedi #Jedi discourse #Jedi Order #The Jedi #The original trilogy #the prequel trilogy #the sequel trilogy

[r0gerr0ger]

Master-padawan relationships are so fascinating in their uniqueness.

Specifically in how unique each relationship is based on age difference between master and padawan.

Obi-Wan is 13 when he becomes Qui-Gon’s padawan, compared to Anakin’s 9. But Qui-Gon is in his late 30s compared to Obi-Wan’s mid-20s as a master. This means Obi-Wan’s relationship is closer to a father-son with his master, versus brotherly with Anakin.

Anakin and Ahsoka are even more like siblings, being so close in age (seriously, how was Anakin allowed a padawan at 19)

So some padawans are growing up with a parental figure. Others with more of a sibling.

The way this would change each Jedi is fundamental. We see this clearly with Obi-Wan compared to Anakin.

Undoubtedly, I also believe it would have impacted Anakin’s fall to the dark side.

It wouldn’t have prevented it (very little if anything could have; it’s what makes the prequels a tragedy) but with a father-figure- someone to reprimand him, to be more authoritative, etc.- perhaps he would have lent less heavily on Palpatine.

Perhaps he would have been guided more openly through his relationship with Padme (here I feel Qui-Gon would have been happy to actually talk about it)

Perhaps Anakin would have felt he could get away with less leading up to his fall. He would have tried harder to stick to the Jedi way- to emulate a father, rather than out-compete a brother.

And yet, equally, I think it could have made his fall all the more terrible.

Often, bitterness for a parent is so much heavier than for a sibling. Anakin would have killed Qui-Gon. He would have levelled so much blame on him. From a slightly different perspective, may even have fallen to the dark side sooner- driven there by resentment, by a need to prove himself.

Obviously, there are so many other factors at play that shaped the way Anakin turned out versus Obi-Wan, but I think their differing master-padawan relationships from an age perspective are hugely important.

What do you think?

(also, how would Ashoka’s life have been different if, say Obi-Wan, was her master?)

#i’m not blaming obi-wan #as i said i don’t believe anything could have prevented anakin’s fall #nor is this pro or anti qui-gon #i don’t really have any strong feelings in that regard #do you think other jedi could tell? #like how you can tell someone’s an only child #‘skywalker was *so* raised by a sibling not a parent’ #‘the kid’s feral’ #pro jedi #jedi #jedi council #star wars #jedi discourse #obi wan star wars #obi wan kenobi #obi wan and anakin #anakin skywalker #darth vader #light side #dark side #qui gon jinn #qui gon and obi wan #qui gon lives #palpatine

[ahsoka-in-a-hood]

Listen, I am not even truly an advocate for Mandalorian reform beyond cheerleading for Satine’s best efforts (you’re doing amazing sweetie) (rip she tried) simply because what’s wrong with them is way funnier, but the fact that the ‘jedi needed to reform’ crowd does somehow sometimes overlap with the ‘new mandalorians is cultural genocide’ crowd is. really something. Something kind of funny but also omfg people are so dumb can you hear yourself

#jedi discourse #the mandalorian discourse #mandalorians #jedi

[shadowmaat]

The Jedi were evil all along!

I debated replying to the thread I saw condemning the Jedi as "rigid" and implying they weren't that different from the Sith, but I would have been the only voice of dissent and given that one of the replies was from a Red Hat Cultist veering off on a frothy anti-Obama rant, I figured it was safer to just make my own post.

Look, no one is saying the Jedi are perfect, but they sure as fuck aren't evil, either. If you're basing your entire opinion on the thoughts and experiences of one individual then your view is incredibly flawed and you should maybe think outside the narrow hole you've dug for yourself.

From what I can tell, some of the worst critics of the Jedi seem to be fans of Anakin Skywalker. Or at least a carefully curated version of Anakin who was a perpetual victim and never did anything wrong. It seems to boil down to "if the Jedi had just let Anakin be openly married to Padmè, nothing bad would have happened!" Which is... certainly a take.

The one argument I see trumpeted over and over (and over) again is that the Jedi prohibition against "attachment" is terrible and wrong and makes them no better than the Sith. This hinges almost entirely on the idea that "attachment" is the same thing as "love."

It isn't. Fans have spent decades explaining why it isn't only to have their reasoning mostly ignored in favor of the more angsty/tragic idea that the Jedi were forbidden to love. ��

"Attachment," IMO, can best be summed up as a literal interpretation of this ever-popular gif:

[img: Rosa from Brooklyn 99. She's holding a small yellow lab puppy as she says, "I've only had Arlo for a day and a half, but if anything happened to him I would kill everyone in this room and then myself."]

Anakin has, admittedly, "had" Padmè for three years instead of a day and a half, but when he thought she was going to die, he killed everyone in the Temple, then killed her, and then continued on a murderous rampage for the next 19 years or so.

"Attachment" is dangerous for anyone, but especially for someone like Anakin, who has additional powers at his command, rigorous training in how to use them, and three years experience as a war leader.

Personally, I also have questions about whether or not marriage is actually forbidden among the Jedi or if Anakin just assumed it was because "attachment." I can see it not being a common thing, and I can also understand a relationship coming under scrutiny to insure that it's a healthy form of love that won't interfere with a Jedi's ability to do their job, but it wouldn't surprise me if Anakin never looked into it because it would mean "sharing" Padmè with others.

Even if marriage wasn't allowed as a whole formal, legalized thing it doesn't mean Jedi can't form relationships. It would, as usual with the Jedi, be about balance. Can someone balance their personal relationship with their commitments to the Order? Can they set their loved one aside to do what must be done? Or will they drop everything to immediately rush to their loved one's side regardless of the risk to others?

We all know what Anakin would do; we've seen it with our own eyes.

The point is, condemning the entire Jedi Order because they didn't give Anakin everything he wanted, when he wanted it, and without question is a little bit of a stretch. Plus, all jokes about his inability to keep a secret aside, it isn't as if he ever went to them to discuss things.

"Well, he didn't think he could trust them because they hated him!" Uh, no, they decidedly didn't hate him, he just believed they did. It all hinges on his beliefs, not reality. And while you could certainly blame Palpatine for reinforcing his beliefs that the Jedi can't be trusted and that everyone hates/is jealous of him, it isn't as if Palps made that up out of thin air: he built on the seeds already within Anakin.

"That's because the Jedi-" No. Insecurities are rarely rational, and while you can argue that the Jedi "didn't do enough" to help Anakin, there are a few salient points to remember:

Anakin isn't the only Jedi in the Order; they have thousands of people to consider.

You have to know there's a problem in order to help.

The person has to be willing to accept that help in order for things to change.

The last two points also apply to those who would condemn Obi-Wan in particular. He has to KNOW a problem exists and then he has to talk his way around to try and get Anakin to accept his help. I know from personal experience just how heartbreakingly difficult it is to help a loved one when they won't admit there's a problem or they won't listen to your advice.

I can think of a lot of ideas that would be fun to experiment with in terms of making changes to the Jedi Order, but most of them involve adding more distance from the Senate and none of them are about catering to the specific (perceived) needs of one Jedi.

#jedi discourse #fandom wank

[obiwanwhat]

I’m really really hoping that Dave Filoni does not blink in this game of “Jedi Sabine” chicken. Like if he pulls a “oh ho she was force sensitive this entire time!” I will be so disappointed I desperately want “yes she’s a jedi. No she’s not force sensitive. No we will not be elaborating”

#give me ahsoka ‘I am no jedi’ Tano redefining what it means to be a jedi #Jedi are compassionate and put the needs of the galaxy above their own and bring light to dark places #and they love and they get attached and they learn how to let go when they need to #force sensitive? don’t need her #star wars #Ahsoka #Ahsoka Tano #ahsoka show #Sabine wren #star wars tv #Jedi #Jedi discourse

[marveltaughtmetoread]

One thing I always struggle with when it comes to Jedi defenders is that they view the Jedi attitude towards attachment as commendable

They define it as being able to hold onto something but be able to let it go easily, to be able to care about something and let it drift away without disturbing your peace in any meaningful way

They care about it but they can let it go because they weren't holding on to it too tight, which is, in the defenders view, the ideal form of attachment

And that's bull

Nothing I care about has been easy to let go

Even with things I did let go because it was the right decision, I've still been in pain over it

The people I care the most about are a hundred miles away from me and creating seperate lives without me, and I am happy for them but I mourn what has been,

I care about them enough to let them move on but I am still attached to them and in theory that is what Jedi attachment could be, caring about something without destroying it or yourself, for leaving, being upset without allowing the grief to consume you

But it's not

The Jedi see 'negative' emotions, such as grief as a bad thing, so even meaningful grief over letting go would be a failure to the Jedi, your grief has to be brief and easy to move on from, otherwise you were too attached

And this is best exemplified to me in the episode where Barriss and Ashoka are buried under rocks on Genosis

Luminara mourns her Padawan, very slightly (I have cared more about breaking a bowl but that might just be how she processes grief) but she's ready to move on

Anakin is angry and unwilling to move on, in denial over the loss of Ashoka, and by nature of it being Anakin, we are clearly meant to see Luminara as the exemplar of how Jedi handle grief

But Luminara is wrong, her Padawan is still alive and her willingness to accept Barriss as a lost cause would have directly led to Barriss dying

It is Anakin's unwillingness to follow suit that saves their Padawans' lives

In a situation where both of them could feel their Padawans' in the force, so could reasonably expected to know they're alive, Luminara gave up the moment they were buried

That's not attachment, that's not caring

I would hope a random stranger cared about me more than that, let alone the people I care about

The Jedi approach to attachment doesn't work because if you genuinely care about something it's loss affects you, you are emotionally distressed because you cared, if you didn't care you would be fine but then you wouldn't have been attached

I wasn't joking when I have been more upset about breaking a bowl than Luminara was over the loss of Barriss

I cared more about an inanimate object than the Jedi do over a living breathing being

What does that say about the people who are supposed to be looking after an entire galaxy

#it's exemplified by the Jedi's attatitude to Anakin giving a damn about his mother but that's a whole different post #anti jedi code #anti jedi #anti jedi order #jedi attachment #jedi order #jedi are flawed as hell #star wars prequels #star wars preqel era #star wars clone wars #star wars #star wars tcw #star wars the clone wars #jedi critical #star wars meta #jedi discourse #star wars discourse #Vina rants

[coldgoldlazarus]

Okay, so now people are going from "The jedi never did anything wrong ever and are perfect and flawless and made zero mistakes and literally everything was Palpatine's fault even when there were moments he was clearly speed-chess-ing to account for the unexpected," a kinda dumb but not unreasonable take, to "Everything is Anakin's fault and he never had the potential to be better and we're just gonna ignore his slave upbringing and Palpatine's influence and just decide he was always the worst person alive and his redemption at the end-" (which I will admit was kinda small in comparison to his crimes, but also was still the centerpiece of the movies that are the centerpiece of the franchise) "-does not matter at all, fuck that guy, and also the Jedi are still 100% perfect btw". And I do not like that.

Like

I really don't wanna get into the weeds here, but there's something about this that really doesn't sit right with me. I will happily call Kylo Ren a neo-nazi school shooter all day, because his awfulness was established and reinforced as his own choice, (no matter what RoS may retroactively claim) and while I could understand the argument for Palpatine being to blame for literally everything in the Prequels, (he is the big bad for a reason, after all) and I won't deny that Darth-youngling-slayer-Vader isn't even remotely close to innocent either; idunno, it still feels off.

There's just, this weird undercurrent of pushing the blame, or the idea the Jedi may have been even the teensiest tiniest bit less than perfect, or provided any ammunition for Palpatine to use against them, off to anyone and everyone else. And not only does it feel divorced from the actual subtext or even text of the Prequel Trilogy, the context of all the different factors that led to Anakin becoming Vader, (some of which he was responsible for, some of which he was not) or the ending of RotJ; but it also just feels increasingly bizarre outside of that. Like y'all are projecting onto the Jedi so hard that anything said against them feels like a personal attack, and the response is to refuse all responsibility on their behalf. And pardon the pun, but that feels very irresponsible when taking into account the political aspect of some of what the prequels were trying to say about complacence in the face of rising fascism.

I can sorta get why people would be like this, I have heard horror stories about Karen Traviss's Jedi-bashing nonsense, but this is going too far in the other direction at this point. I can also understand how RoS dropping the ball with TLJ's setup could aid in this, since I think TLJ's overall point that the Jedi are still good, but do severely need to evolve and change, was undercut by JJ's own blind worship. But that doesn't make the point any less valid at the end of the day, you're just missing it completely.

#not a reblog #star wars #star wars discourse #jedi discourse #maybe there's some vital context I'm missing #in the clone wars or whatever #since I am a movie-only gal #but this really reads to me like people #who took the OT's stilted and biased account #of them at face value #but instead of getting mad at the prequels #just decided to completely misread them #to align with that prior perception #for the record I do not think the jedi suck #I think they were trying to do the right thing #but made a fuckton of mistakes #that Palpatine was more than happy to exploit #thus this trend of completely denying those mistakes #is really really fucking stupid #and honestly a little uncomfortable #and I just hope that y'all don't approach #important irl issues the same way #really. every time I see stuff like this #it reminds me that at the end of the day #while TLJ made me appreciate #and even love the movies again #I will always hate 99% of star wars fans

[gffa]

i love you for all you do for the jedi discourse

I've been thinking about this lately, the fraught tension of the discourse around the Jedi, how contentious it can sometimes get, how I know I'm not always the most patient I could be, and sometimes I regret that. But other times I don't. Because there are times I feel like I'm screaming into the void about how, every single day, there is some new bad faith response on one of my posts, some new unsettlingly "hyper invested in a stranger on the internet's opinions about made up space wizards" comment in the tags I browse, and that I'm just really exhausted at feeling like it's always up to Jedi fans to be saints, but if we show the slightest bit of snapping at yet another person putting a bad faith take on our posts, oh, we just ~can't handle anyone not babying our faves~. And honestly I don't know where to go from here, because I do enjoy good faith discussion, but I'm also just so worn out of five years of this, never knowing when someone is being reasonable or when they're going to blow up on me, never knowing when a comment is serious or a joke, the lack of structure of discussions, are we talking on a Doylist level or a Watsonian one?, etc. Five years of playing defense against people coming into the space I've created for myself, I don't know how much I can really even contribute to the discourse anymore, because it's just been so many times piled on so many times that this has happened. And the majority of the time they're pretty mild, but after a certain point you're just tired of having the same thing thrown at you, so you play defense and try to cut things off at the pass, try to predict the nonsense comments you're going to get, and that becomes woven into your meta, rather than being able to relax and just talk about what you want in the way you want. I'm not upset about this so much as just kind of navel-gazing and I do kind of loathe some of the behavior of fandom, as well as I wanted to talk about why some of us may seem pretty prickly and I hope that I can project that, yeah, I have my scraped raw nerve points in some places, but that I'm working to let go of it, and if you wonder why I've checked out from a lot of these conversations, that's why. There's little to be gained by it, I've thought about these topics for five years, I've given it all a ton of critical thought, and I'm settled where I'm settled. I'm exhausted, so I'm just going to be over here, in my own corner, trying to turn back to the things I love talking about, because that's the kind of corner of fandom I want. That seems like such a downer answer for a sweet ask, apologies!  I’m just annoyed at fandom today (what else is new) and wanted to go, you know, there’s a reason some of us seem like we’re in a bad mood at times. That said, the kind comments are appreciated and I will endeavor to get back to being more fun about Star Wars and the psychic space wizards even more than I already am.  (To be fair, I shitpost a good amount, too, okay.  XD)

#lumi.txt #jedi discourse

[maaruin]

Ask game #3- star wars

"screenshot or description of the worst take you've seen on tumblr"

Joke answer: It is likely that I have seen GIFs of the scene in which Luke tried to kill Ben Solo/Kylo Ren in his sleep on tumblr, which makes it a take on Luke's character that I have seen on tumblr in is probably worse than anything else I have seen on here. (I have seen even worse takes in other parts of the internet though...) Serious answer: I will note that often even the very extreme Star Wars takes have a logic to them I can respect. I can largely understand the Jedi haters and the Jedi apologists. I can sympathize with Reylos and anti-Reylos. Even though they all often make points I disagree with and sometimes get frustrated or angry with.

If would suspect I saw the worst take in discourse about the Sequels, and my memories about that are rather hazy. So I might be conflating different takes when I state what I consider the worst take to be: That killing Han specifically was Kylo Ren's unforgivable deed. Declaring anything in Star Wars as unforgivable/unredeemable is already something I think goes against the spirit of Star Wars, but I can see arguments in favor of that. But killing Han was far from the worst thing Kylo Ren did and the reason I suspect why someone would say that is that they have more attachment to Han than to the civilians Kylo Ren had executed at the beginning of the movie. (However, even with this take I am open to hearing the argument that patricide is always worse than killing strangers - or, hell, if you go full ethical subjectivism on me I might even see the point that the bad things characters do in stories are always crimes against the reader... wait, looks like I just came up with a take more weird than I thought possible. Maybe I should elaborate that take in a post so I can say that the worst Star Wars take I have seen on tumblr is on my own blog.)

#star wars #sequel trilogy #sequel trilogy spoilers #jedi discourse #reylo discourse #kylo ren #fiction and ethics

[comradejarjar]

honestly the thing that fucks up jedi discourse so much is that everyone is coming at it from a different angle, whether they're looking at it from as a catholic institution or a buddhist culture or an intergalactic police force or even plato's republic, and so nobody can ever really be correct because they're all trying to make it fit into just one box except for me because I know that the force is just some white guy (probably on cocaine) saying hey what if every religion in the world was correct and the jedi are just psychic samurai with cool swords

#and also casual dismemberment of civilians. seriously check obi wan's dismemberment count its insane #literally every single movie hes alive in #star wars #jedi discourse #jedi order

[the-far-bright-center]

Dystopian themes in the Prequels

“Looking back is helpful in understanding his work. Lucas started out in the 1960’s as an experimental filmmaker heavily influenced by the avant-garde films of the San Francisco art scene. Initially interested in painting, he became an editor and visualist who made abstract tone poems. His first feature, THX 1138 (1971) was an experimental science fiction film that presented a surreal, underground world where a dictatorial state controls a docile population using drugs. Love and sex are outlawed, procreation is controlled through machines, and human beings shuffle meaninglessly around the system.”

—Anthony Parisi, 'Revisiting the Star Wars Prequels'

The bolded parts in this description correspond with the Coruscant Underworld, the Jedi Order’s code, and the creation of the clone troopers, respectively.

Notably, in THX 1138's setting, emotions such as love and the concept of family are taboo:

I’ve always found it so interesting that Lucas incorporated the dystopian elements of his earlier sci-fi into the Prequels, taking place as they do in the context of the final years of the Repubic, with all its colourful and sumptuous visual spendour. In comparison, the post-apocalyptic ‘Dark Times’ of the Original Trilogy would seem on the surface to be the more outwardly ‘dystopian’ setting of the two—however, the actual story of the OT is a mythic hero's journey and fairytale, complete with an uplifting and transcendent happy ending. The OT's setting may be drained of colour, and its characters may be living under the shadow of the Empire, but as a story it is far from bleak or dystopian in tone. Rather, fascinatingly, it is the pre-apocalyptic era of the Prequels that is presented as the more dystopian storyline:

“On the surface, [The Phantom Menace] is an optimistic, colorful fantasy of a couple of swashbuckling samurai rescuing a child Queen and meeting a gifted slave boy who can help save the galaxy from the slimy Trade Federation and its Sith leaders. But beneath that cheerful facade is a sweatshop of horrors.” —Michael O'Connor, 'Moral Ambiguity: Beyond Good and Evil in the Prequels'

This is referring to the state of the galaxy during the Prequels era, including the fact that slavery is known to exist, but is largely ignored by the Republic and the Jedi alike due to being too economically inconvenient to combat. It also refers to how the Jedi of the Old Order come across as cold and distant atop their ivory tower on the artificial world of Coruscant, far removed not only from the natural world but also from the true realities of the people they claim to serve. And then there is the additional revelation in Attack of the Clones that love and family are 'outlawed' within the Jedi Order, creating an environment in which their own 'Chosen One' is unable to flourish, leaving him vulnerable to the Dark Side. Finally, there's the fact that the characters end up so distracted by fighting a civil war (something that goes against their own principles and involves the use of a slave clone army in the process), that they are blinded to the entity of pure evil that is guiding their every move...until it is too late.

“Without a clear enemy, the Jedi Order, the Galactic Senate, the whole of the Star Wars galaxy bickers and backstabs and slides around the moral scales. But there is one benefit to Palpatine’s pure evil crashing down upon the galaxy; against its oppressive darkness, only the purest light can shine through.” —Michael O'Connor, 'Moral Ambiguity: Beyond Good and Evil in the Prequels'

If anything, the Dark Times allows for the OT generation's acts of courage and heroism to flourish and succeed, because they are not hampered by the Old Jedi Order's restrictive rules, nor by its servitude to the whims of an increasingly corrupt Republic—so corrupt, in fact, that by the time of RotS, it is practically the Empire in all but name. Indeed, one of the key features of the Prequels, and what makes them so tragic, is that the characters are already living in a dystopia...they just don't know it.

There is, paradoxically, a level of freedom to be found in the midst of the Dark Times which had not been possible during the Twilight era, which allows Original Trio to rise above the tragedy that befell their predecessors. They are able to act as free agents (not as slaves of a corrupt government), serving only the fight for the liberation of all the peoples of the galaxy (not just citizens of the Republic), and are likewise free to live (and love!) on their own terms. Free to act on their positive attachments to one another, without having to hide the truth of their feelings. It's particularly telling that *this* is, above all, what makes the Prequels era so dystopian—the characters' inability to freely and openly participate in normal familial human relationships.

#the prequels #original trilogy #pt x ot #the skywalker saga #the real skywalker saga #lucas' saga #lucas' influences #THX 1138 #the twilight of the republic #vs #the Dark Times #the jedi order #jedi discourse #Prequels appreciation #the prequels era as dystopia #the prequels as tragedy #the original trilogy as fairytale #original trilogy era as fairytale #slavery vs. freedom #the dark is generous and it is patient and it always wins #but it is also the context in which the light shines more brightly

[damascusdalek]

Something I've just realized

The people who are pro jedi to the point of delusion, at least from what I've seen, are some sort of Christian fundamentalist. Usually catholic

I think I've figured out why they are the way they are

#star wars #pro jedi #jedi discourse

[mr-bottle-28-3-96]

Good lord, why is it so hard for Star Wars fans to make nuanced takes re: the Jedi and attachment.

No, attachment =/= love.

The Jedi methodology of handling attachment, especially regarding Anakin, a 9 year old recently freed slave who misses his mother, was fucking abysmal, and George can go fuck himself.

No, Anakin as an adult was not a good person with healthy relationships.

Yes, Anakin was explicitly groomed by Palpatine.

The Jedi failed to earn Anakin's trust time and time again despite having raised him for a decade, during which time they allowed Anakin to be groomed by Palpatine. There is no evidence of any meaningful intervention on their part regarding said grooming.

I swear. You people are so attached to the ideal of the Jedi that you will ignore and excuse every flaw that is actually identifiable on screen.

And no, identifying a causal/contibutary relationship between the structure/actions of the Jedi Order and its fall does not imply that they deserved a fucking massacre.

And before I leave, Obi-Wan Kenobi holds a lot of culturally chauvinistic viewpoints, literally depicted since his introduction in ANH, and you hold him up as an ideal Jedi, so... says a lot about you Jedi apologists.

#woke up and encountered jedi discourse today #so I'm just gonna unload all my thoughts here before breakfast #attachment discourse #jedi discourse #god forbid we be nuanced about star wars of all things

[phoenixyfriend]

"Why didn't the Jedi help Shmi after TPM?"

Why didn't Padmé.

Ignoring the expanded universe stuff about Qui-Gon sending the expensive lens or Padmé dispatching Sabé years later, so long after that Cliegg had already met, wooed, and saved up to free Shmi himself, why did Padmé not include "paying back the slave woman who helped me save my planet" in her post-invasion plans?

The Jedi have budgets that are regulated, to some unknown degree, by the Senate. Sure, there's probably some discretionary spending, but an Entire Slave would be flagged. Not a purchase you can hide easily! They're also NOT supposed to operate in Hutt Space unless undercover OR as official Republic envoys.

Padmé? Literally a queen. In the same galactic neighborhood. Has inherited wealth. Probably has room in her staff for a mechanic or something. Can easily justify freeing Shmi to her cabinet as payment for services rendered; remember, that Nubian hyperdrive was paid with Anakin's winnings, meaning they came at the cost of Shmi's freedom.

The real answer is that George Lucas needed Shmi to still be on Tatooine in AotC, and never bothered to expand on how Shmi was freed, himself, so other people took up the slack.

But if we ask why the Jedi didn't free Shmi, then I think we also need to ask: why didn't Padmé?

(I love Padmé. I fully believe she would have sent someone to free Shmi after Naboo was in order post-Invasion, and that it was just an oversight or even plot necessity from G Lucas. I just dislike the double standards of hating on the Jedi for not helping when Padmé is right next door and has That Cash Money.)

#Phoenix Talks #star wars #shmi skywalker #padme amidala #pro Jedi #discourse #original trilogy

[rynnaaurelius]

It's back on my dash and I increasingly think I have found the Right Opinion about the heart of all Jedi Discourse, and it's whether your approach to the prequels is largely Watsonian or Doylist

#not saying one is right or wrong #but i think the arguments over religious trauma and the ethics of the war can be boiled down to this #star wars #jedi discourse #ryn speaks