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ineffable-romantics · 9 months

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Some thoughts on why and how I believe Crowley and Aziraphale's relationship would incorporate sex/why I do not read them as wholly asexual:

This is something I've seen the most discourse about in this fandom, and I've had a few thoughts of my own that I really wanted to expand upon in a full meta/character analysis post. I do understand that this can be a contentious topic, so first, let me clarify a few things:

First of all, this is going to be long. Tbh it probably won't be that organized either. I ramble and I'm not very good at editing, so just... you know. Be warned. (*Hi, it's me from 2 days after writing this; I'm really not kidding, it's LONG)

These are all my own thoughts. They might not be hot takes, because recently I've seen more than a few people come to the same conclusions on a lot of these points as I have. But I've also had these notes in my drafts for about a week and a half now, and have been continuously adding to it as things have occurred to me. This post is essentially just somewhere for me to collect the separate but related meta I've been kicking around in my head.

I fully respect anyone who does see and prefer an asexual reading of this relationship. These are my own thoughts and interpretations as someone who is not asexual. I am in the LGBT+ community, so while I do know a few things about the asexuality spectrum, I am by no means an expert.

This is NOT something I expect, need, or even necessarily want the show (or, God forbid, Neil's tumblr ask box) to address. Tonally, it's just not that kind of show. Newt and Anathema's sex scene was very much played for laughs, and it worked for that reason. If the show found a way to address it in a way that was both appropriate for the tone of the show and ultimately satisfying, then great! But there is so much more to this relationship than sex, and I didn't need a kiss to confirm their love, so I certainly don't need a sex scene. As immortal beings (as I assume they'll stay) there is so much of the rest of their lives we'll never get to see. You can headcanon them as asexual and potentially be right. I can headcanon them as not and be equally potentially right. Again, these are just a collection of my own thoughts, because I think the question of sexuality (or lack thereof) is just as interesting a facet of these characters as any other.

Note: Tbh I've been second-guessing this whole post and debated deleting the whole thing several times for being silly or unnecessary, bc I don't want anyone to think that this is the only thing I care about when it comes to this story/characters. But if nothing else, it's inspired me to write in a way that nothing has in a very long time, so I've decided it's worth continuing, if for no other reason than that.

This is going to be a mixed bag of textual reading, subtextual reading, and a full-on reach or two. It's been a while since I've been in an English class, but if my teachers expected me to find a deeper meaning behind blue curtains, you can expect me to read too deeply into the symbolism of a loaded rifle or an ox rib. (This is probably not what my professors had in mind when grading my literary analysis papers but oh well) My point is, if it feels like a reach, I'm as aware of it as you are. I am in no way saying that all (or even any) of my points made were deliberate on the part of Neil or the actors or the writers or the directors. I am no longer the delulu Apple Tree Yard child of my youth, I promise.

If anything said here is in any way offensive or hurtful to anyone in the asexual community, please do not hesitate to message me or comment and let me know exactly what it was. I promise you it is not my intention to do so, and am happy to clarify or outright edit anything that reads that way.

With all that being said, let's talk about why I think Crowley and Aziraphale would absolutely fuck nasty incorporate sex into their relationship.

Note: I am out of practice with essay writing, so I think I'll just go down the bullet points of notes I have been making, and expand on each as best I can

Food

Where better to start than with Aziraphale's introduction to Pleasures Of The Flesh? (Just a heads up, this entire post may feel very Aziraphale-heavy, and with good reason).

This might be the least hot take here. We've all seen the Job minisode. We've all seen That Scene.

Whether this was intentional or not, the symbolism here is off the charts. Eve was tempted by an apple. So why not go a similar route and tempt Aziraphale with another fruit, or cheese, or bread, or literally anything else for his first experience with food? Instead, we go with a huge, glistening slab of fresh meat that he proceeds to absolutely go feral upon, moaning and gasping into his meal while Crowley watches with what definitely doesn't look to be disgust or even satisfaction with a good temptation. There's surprise at the ferocity of Aziraphale's appetite, certainly. But ultimately he looks to be intensely fascinated by it, while the thunder crashes, the music crescendos, and the earth literally shakes around them.

(It's also interesting to note how very little it takes for Crowley to tempt him with the ox rib. One murmured suggestion, a bit of unwavering eye contact, and vavoom Aziraphale immediately meets him in the middle.)

Cut to Aziraphale devouring the rest of the meat with Crowley splayed back on a makeshift bed, drinking wine and continuing to watch him indulge through half-lidded eyes. Outside a thunderstorm rages while they're learning secrets about each other in warm flickering firelight. It's cosy, it's intimate, and if they'd thrown in a bearskin throw blanket, it might as well be a post-coital scene straight out of Game of Thrones.

The next time (chronologically) we see them discuss food is when Aziraphale "tempts" Crowley with oysters in Rome. So Crowley first tempts Aziraphale with meat and then Aziraphale tempts Crowley with what is widely regarded to be an aphrodisiac. Interesting.

And then chronologically after that, the Arrangement begins to form, which has always reeked of a friends with benefits situation. Just to throw that in there.

It's What Humans Do

In the very first episode, we're shown Gabriel's obvious disgust and bewilderment towards Aziraphale eating sushi, calling it "gross matter" and being proud of the fact that he does not sully his body with it. Aziraphale initially tries to defend his own enjoyment in it, before passing it off as something that humans do, as something he simply has to do in order to blend in (which we know very well is not the case).

He does this again in season 2, passing off Nina and Maggie being in love as "something humans do". But it isn't, is it? Angels are beings of love, and can sense it, and understand very well what it is... up to a point. Even romantic love is obviously within their wheelhouse, given what we now know happened between Gabriel and Beelzebub (we'll come back to them).

What the "humans do" that angels wouldn't understand is messy, physical forms of love.

But here's the thing: Aziraphale and Crowley love doing what the humans do. They love drinking, they (or at least Aziraphale) love eating. They love music. Crowley loves driving and sleeping and watching rom-coms and sitcoms. Aziraphale loves reading and doing magic and earning little licenses and certificates for achievement in his various hobbies. They love to playact at being human so much that they've stopped playacting and started building a genuinely human lifestyle for themselves and with each other.

Once together in an unambiguously romantic sense, why do we think they wouldn't also want to explore one of the most prominent, intimate, powerful human expressions of love and desire with each other?

Angels, Demons, & Asexuality

Here's where I really want to clarify that in no way do I mean that sex is necessary for a healthy, fulfilling, and loving romantic relationship, or that the lack of desire for sex makes you any less human. Asexuality is a sexuality as valid and human as any. What I would say is that it is definitely in the human minority compared to allosexuality.

Angels and demons, on the other hand, are predominately asexual. Sexless/genderless unless Making An Effort. (Which, btw, is a concept introduced as early as the original book; why even bring it up as a possibility? Why not keep angels/demons being sexless/asexual as a hard and fast rule, if not to open up the potential for later use? Chekhov's Effort, if you will. And isn't that something that Aziraphale in particular is shown to do time and time again? He makes an effort in French and driving and magic, doesn't he?)

And this is why I don't believe Aziraphale and Crowley necessarily need to be asexual, narratively. There is already a huge amount of ace rep within the angels and demons (and no, not just the horrible ones. Muriel also doesn't "drink the tea" and has no reason or desire thus far to Make An Effort, and there are certainly other angels and demons who aren't horrible like the archangels seem to be who likely wouldn't Make An Effort either).

The central conflict for Aziraphale and Crowley is that they are on their own side, the ones who went native, the ones who are so different in so many ways from their respective hives. It would make sense for them to also break away from traditional angel/demon asexuality.

I say "traditional angel/demon asexuality", because I would also like to note that I would absolutely not rule out demisexuality for either of them. This post is being written to as a response to people who specifically believe that they (like the rest of the angels/demons seem to be) would be sex-averse in a relationship, and that it wouldn't be a factor in their relationship. I could easily read them as demisexual, but I do think there would be no real way of verifying this, because they've never been able to form as close an emotional relationship with anyone else but each other. Certainly not in heaven, and I can't imagine they would be able to form that kind of attachment with any of the humans, who they love and emulate but ultimately regard as the separate species they are. So yes, they could either be allosexual or demisexual, in my opinion.

Then again, now that I think about it, Making An Effort itself could be a great metaphor for demisexuality, since they would be entirely sexless/asexual until they have enough of an emotional connection with someone to consciously manifest otherwise. Since the other angels and demons don't generally form those types of emotional connections with anyone, there hasn't been a precedent for it.

Except...

Brielzebub

We do have a precedent for it now, don't we? Gabriel and Beelzebub fell in love. They are a direct foil for Crowley and Aziraphale's relationship, speedrunning right through their courtship and finding their happily ever after on the other side of things.

For being such a 1 to 1 comparison, it feels deliberate that they did not kiss. They held hands, they were gooey with each other, but they did not kiss. That feels like such a deliberate thing to omit when you know what's to come at the end of the episode between Crowley and Aziraphale.

And going back to the food = sex metaphor for a moment, let's notice how even as they fell in love over the years, even when pints and crisps were there on the table in front of them, they never felt the desire to reach out for them. They didn't need to. It's a date (love story) even if you aren't eating dinner (sleeping together).

Yes, I know Jim liked hot chocolate. No, I am not counting it because I don't consider Jim and Gabriel to be the same person with the same proclivities, and Jim was highly suggestible at the time anyway.

Gabriel and Brielzebub's big happily ever after moment (as of now) was one between two asexual supernatural beings. They did not need to kiss to drive the point home. They showed what Crowley and Aziraphale could have, if they would only acknowledge it.

Crowley & Aziraphale's Dissatisfaction

But they do have that already, don't they? If you really think about it, what do Gabriel and Beelzebub do with each other that Crowley and Aziraphale don't already? They hold hands, they spend time together, they create little rituals, they give gifts, they're visibly and verbally affectionate with each other, etc. They are more or less already in a romantic asexual marriage relationship with each other, aren't they?

And it doesn't seem to be enough for either of them.

At the beginning of the season, Crowley is immediately shown to be unsatisfied with the way things are. Obviously part of it comes from living in his car, but it seems to be more than that (especially since Aziraphale makes it clear that the bookshop is just as much Crowley's as his, implying that he could have been living there the whole time and is choosing not to, for some reason?). You could argue he's feeling unmoored without Hell telling him what to do, but isn't that what he wanted? Isn't that what he still wants, by the end of the season? All season long, he's never indicated the desire for a new job, or a new project. He stopped the apocalypse because he wanted the freedom to openly spend time with Aziraphale, to spend his time on Earth however he sees fit. Until Gabriel arrives, he has exactly that (minus a flat).

So where does the dissatisfaction come from? And if it represents anything to do with his relationship, what does he want out of it that he isn't getting already?

I think Crowley only really comes to the realisation of what he's missing when Nina names it for him, not only putting them in the category of romantic, but physical (outright asking if they are sleeping together). These two posts [1], [2] go into more detail about what I mean, but I think it really pushes him into acknowledging that their relationship is more human than either of them have stopped to consider, and what that might mean as far as everything a human relationship can entail.

After all, Nina and Maggie only advised that he should talk to Aziraphale, make clear his feelings. The decision to kiss him, to tip them over the edge from nonphysical to physical, that was all him. And no, kissing isn't sex, but I wonder how taboo even that might be in the kind of all-encompassing asexuality most angels seem to identify with. (If they're disgusted by food and drink, I can only imagine what they think of snogging, much less sex.)

Aziraphale doesn't have this moment of someone observing their relationship from the outside. He loves Crowley, and as of 1941 probably even knows he's in love with him in a way that Crowley doesn't understand yet. Which makes sense, since love is technically his job, he'd be more likely to recognise it for what it is.

However, Aziraphale's reference for romance and relationships is Jane Austen. It's chaste. It's dancing and dinner and doing sweet things for each other and roses and candles and handholding. He contextualises his love for Crowley in that soft fantasy sort of way, where it's there, it's obviously there, but it's neat and easy and unspoken. Not to quote Glee in this, the year of our lord 2023, but it's all very "the touch of the fingertips is as sexy as it gets".

Someone should tell that to Aziraphale's face, then.

I'm not going to pretend I know what Michael Sheen's script notes were, but there were definitely some Choices™ made. Because yes, there were plenty of moments in both seasons with Aziraphale looking at Crowley in a sweet, loving, smitten way. And then there were moments that were yearning.

But yearning for what, exactly? All of those sappy Jane Austen tropes already apply to the two of them. So why are there moments where Aziraphale is looking Crowley up and down like the last eclair in the window and licking his lips and visibly exhaling like he's trying to get in control of himself (see: Bastille scene + Crowley telling Muriel to ask him if they have any other questions about love)? Why is Aziraphale not only unconcerned when Crowley shoves him bodily up against a wall in s1, but staring at his lips and a beat too late in noticing Sister Mary's arrival? Why are some of his lines so suggestive? I'm sorry, but the car ride after the church explosion might as well have been the beginning of a Pizza Man porn with a really weird Blitz theme. If even my mother picked up on that vibe, I can't imagine it wasn't intentional on part of both the dialogue and the delivery.

(This section may feel like more of a reach/joke, but I'm really only 20% joking. These are writers and actors who are EXTREMELY good at their jobs; they know what they were doing here.)

More importantly, I don't think Aziraphale is even aware that there is more to what he wants. He lives in the Jane Austen fantasy and it never even occurs to him that he might be interested in anything further. It never even occurs to him that, as an angel, there is anything further to be interested in in the first place. Until Crowley forces it to occur to him. Just like I believe Nina forced Crowley to confront the idea that romantic love is what he's been feeling all along, I believe Crowley forced Aziraphale to confront the idea that physical intimacy is something he's been wanting, without even realising.

Aziraphale's Hedonism

Expanding on Aziraphale for a moment. We talked about his relationship with food, but we all know that Aziraphale is defined by his love of things that Feel Good.

It isn't just that he and Crowley love human things. Aziraphale loves the best of the best, or at least his version of it. He doesn't just love food, he loves going to fancy restaurants. He doesn't just love clothes, he loves soft, cosy, warm, plush clothes, or shiny, flashy, bougie fashion. He loves the warmth of tea and cocoa, loves getting drunk, and sitting in a comfy chair in the sunlight. He doesn't just experience, he indulges.

Given the emphasis put on things that Aziraphale loves just because they Feel Good, it feels narratively strange to assume that he wouldn't enjoy the feeling of being touched, or that he wouldn't be willing to try it, at least once, with someone he cared very deeply for. And just like the ox rib, I think that once he gets the first taste of things, he would absolutely tip over into complete and utter self-indulgence.

Dancing

I also think that dancing could be construed as a huge metaphor here. After all, we're told flat-out that angels don't Dance. Except one.

I would argue that Aziraphale, in fact, Made An Effort to learn how to Dance. He threw himself into the gavotte with delight (at a Victorian gay club; noted) and worked hard to be good at it. He's chomping at the bit to Dance with Crowley, working up the nerve to ask him with undeniably romantic intent and eagerness. So, angels don't Dance... unless they Make An Effort to do so.

We are told that demons, on the other hand, do Dance, but not well. Makes sense, since they're the ones who would want to encourage a deadly sin like lust, but have as little understanding of human love and physical intimacy as the angels. Crowley, however, is shown to be an excellent dancer at the ball, especially in his compatibility with Aziraphale.

(But Aziraphale WandaVisioned the ball so everyone knew how to dance! Yes, he did. However, the rest of the brainwashing doesn't seem to affect Crowley in any way, and they did actually live through the time period where this sort of dancing was a social norm; I'd be surprised if he never needed to learn. After all, the demons can't spell either, and Crowley is at least functionally literate, as far as we know.)

As of today, it's also been confirmed that when Aziraphale asked Crowley to dance, Crowley replied with "you don't dance." Not "WE don't dance". So going along with the metaphor, Crowley is just now discovering that Dancing is something Aziraphale is interested in at all, much less with him, and not denying that he himself is interested in Dancing. In his defense, I believe he was asleep for a few years while Aziraphale was learning the gavotte, so he wasn't exactly aware of Aziraphale's hot girl summer.

Love Languages

I want to expand on that; Crowley and Aziraphale's compatibility. Specifically in regards to their individual love languages.

We all know Crowley's love language is Acts of Service. I don't think there's any debate there. He loves it, Aziraphale loves it, they're both aware of it, we're all aware of it, God and Satan are aware of it, no surprise there.

You may disagree with me, but I believe Aziraphale's love language is Physical Touch, for a number of reasons. One of which being his aforementioned hedonism. Aziraphale likes things that Feel Good, remember? He likes soft clothes, and well-worn books. Neil himself has said that they like holding hands. And any time he is taken by surprise (Brielzebub getting together, the wave of love in Tadfield, etc.) what is the first thing he does? Reaches out for Crowley. He stops him with a hand to the chest in the pub. He leads him by the hand to the dance floor. He guides him by the waist in the graveyard. He reaches out during the entire Brielzebub scene, whether he can reach Crowley or not. Despite his own turmoil, he grasps at Crowley's back during the kiss.

The one time Crowley reaches out for him (not counting the kiss yet; we'll get there), he is aggressively pushed against a wall (by someone he loves and trusts) with a complete and utter lack of concern (and perhaps some interest, depending on how you read it).

And when he isn't reaching out for anyone, or there isn't anyone to reach out to? Well, he's wringing his own hands together, squeezing his own fingers, as if to find that physical comfort in himself.

So. With that theory in mind, we have Aziraphale (Physical Touch) + Crowley (Acts of Service). Throw in 6000+ years of deep love, cherished companionship, and forcibly repressed longing, and there is a very real potential of this combination resulting in fierce sexual compatibility. Where Aziraphale would want to touch and be touched, to indulge in physical pleasure with someone he adores, in the same the way he indulges in every other fine thing in his life. And where Crowley would want to indulge him in return, to give him everything he wants, and to take pleasure in Aziraphale's pleasure, in the same way he enjoys watching him take joy in food everything else.

So Aziraphale is an angel who is insecure about his own less-than-holy desires, who would want to treat Crowley like a luxury to be touched and cherished and adored. And Crowley is a demon who has, over the millennia, been unhappy about how they've been forced to deny even their friendship with each other, who would want Aziraphale to feel comfortable and safe and encouraged to indulge in earthly delights. That sounds like a stunning recipe for sexual compatibility to me.

"You said 'trust me'" / "And you did"

Just like the Job minisode, the Blitz is RIFE with symbolism (intentional or otherwise). This one will be quick, but I did want to touch on it because I thought it was interesting. Maybe I'm reaching at this point, but I'm assuming you read the tin.

First of all, Crowley not wanting to admit to never firing a gun before; comes off as someone who very much does not want to admit to their crush that they're a virgin ("You must have done this lots of times!" / "Umm.... yyyyyeah.")

(You could make the argument that Aziraphale having a firearms license and a Derringer in a hollowed-out book is symbolic of him not being a virgin while Crowley is. I disagree, for reasons I'll go into later, but it's a valid reading. However, I see it more like keeping a condom in your wallet; it's there in case you need it, but the opportunity has not yet risen no pun intended.)

More importantly, the theme of this entire minisode is trust. We already know they trust each other with their lives against the rest of Heaven, Hell, and the world. But specifically, this is about the importance of having complete trust in your partner in a charged, physically vulnerable, intimate moment, where the only danger is between the two of you.

Aziraphale needs to believe Crowley would never hurt him if he can help it. Crowley needs to trust Aziraphale's unwavering blind faith in him. Frankly, it all feels very symbolic of two people deeply in love losing their respective virginities with each other.

The trick is a success, and they share an intimate candlelit dinner in which they reaffirm their faith in each other. Aziraphale also begins to voice his agreement with Crowley, that maybe Heaven's rules shouldn't have to be as black and white as they are, and that there are benefits to... blurring the lines, shades of grey, wink wink (at which point even my mom was like, whoa guys, this is a family show).

Btw also: Can we all agree how much it looked like Crowley was getting ready to get a lapdance in that one scene? You know the one.

Also also: "Aim for my mouth"? Come on.

The Birds & The Bees

Now that I think of it, there's also something to be said for the fact that Crowley and Aziraphale are both obviously familiar with where babies come from (how they're made and how they're born) while the other angels aren't.

Something something Aziraphale and Crowley fundamentally understand sex and reproduction in a way the other angels (and probably demons) very much do not, nor have any desire to.

Probably not important. Just thought it was worth mentioning.

The Kiss™ & Religious Trauma

The Kiss. Where to even begin?

This has definitely been the hardest one to start, because there is so much going on here that I definitely won't be able to cover it all, and will certainly miss a few things here and there.

Aziraphale's reaction to the kiss afterwards is the most interesting to me. And I don't mean directly after, I don't mean the "I forgive you" part. I mean the way he touches his lips when Crowley is no longer in the room and he no longer needs to save face, when he is completely alone. Had it been directly after the kiss, it would have been rightfully read as horror, or disgust, a shield to discourage further action.

It's not. It isn't just a touch, it's a press. As desperate and angry and unexpected and imperfect as the kiss had been, Aziraphale is pressing it into himself, recreating the feeling as best he can. Beneath all the poor timing and shock and hurt from their fight and fallout, I think it's fair to say that it was something he enjoyed. Something he doesn't think he should enjoy, something that Feels Good that he only allows himself to indulge in when completely alone.

Remember, Aziraphale's idea of love is Jane Austen and gentleness and courtship and fantasy. If he'd ever even considered kissing an option, it might have been gentle pecks, cheek kisses, forehead kiss, hand kisses. Soft, safe, chaste affection.

Crowley's kiss turns all of that on its head. He introduces physical intimacy in a very real, very messy, very human way that I don't think Aziraphale ever even considered could apply to them. Considering what other angels are like and what they look down on, even Aziraphale's Jane Austen fantasies probably would have been considered taboo.

So for their first kiss to be rough and desperate and passionate in the way it was, of course he was confused and in shock. It was deeply physical, and as overwhelming and awful as it was in the moment, it Felt Good. Enough that he grasped at Crowley and kissed back, if only just for a moment, before stopping himself. Enough that he actively pressed it into his lips afterwards, in private, to remember.

I adore how Neil has decided to evolve these characters past the first book/season. More so in this season, Aziraphale and Crowley have both become such interesting allegories for queer people on either side of the spectrum of toxic religion. Aziraphale in particular obviously, because he is the side that so desperately wants to believe, to make a difference, and to unlearn all of the propaganda he's been fed over such a long time. Just like so much of organised religion, there is so much that he is told, time and time again, that he should not want, that he is silly or stupid or outright wrong for wanting. It reminds me so much of the severe Catholic guilt one might feel for wanting/engaging in sex for the first time, and the stigma of being queer layered on top of that.

What is so critical to Aziraphale's character is that he goes on wanting, and more than that, actively pursues. He was convinced to go up against Heaven and Hell and stop all of Armageddon because he wanted to go on listening to music and eating lunch and reading books and enjoying the simple company of the person he cares most deeply for, even if that person is supposed to be the enemy.

All this to say that if angels are as generally asexual/sex-averse as I believe them to be, narratively speaking, it would make sense for Aziraphale to be singular in that regard as well. Mirroring his first experience with food, it would make sense for Crowley to be the one to first introduce this new messy, physical, human dynamic between them, for Aziraphale to hesitate (obviously we are at the Hesitation phase at the moment), and then (eventually) for him to dive in wholeheartedly, to absolutely glut himself on this new thing that Feels Good. It would make sense for his character development to show him overcoming his metaphorical Catholic guilt and pursuing the sexual intimacy most (if not all) of the other angels would scorn.

(I can't help but remember that plot idea Neil described from the unwritten sequel, with Aziraphale in a hotel room trying to watch a full porno by way of the free 2-minute teaser clips so he wasn't technically sinning by paying for it. I so hope this is used in season 3, because gosh, I wonder why Aziraphale would suddenly be so interested in observing human physical intimacy after 6,000 years. Lonely and doing a little surreptitious research there, angel?)

Crowley, on the other hand, is the queer person who has broken free from his toxic religion. He prides himself on being his own person, on their his own side. He doesn't have the hang-ups Aziraphale does. He doesn't worry that he's going to be judged or cast aside for wanting things he's not supposed to. So it only makes sense for him to be the first one to suggest/initiate physical intimacy. It makes sense for him to be the one who "goes too fast" (another fantastic example of this dynamic beginning as early as s1; what is that conversation in the car meant to represent, if not Aziraphale being overwhelmed by the intensity of their relationship, and his fear of succumbing to it when he believes he shouldn't? It's also interesting that this is the first conversation to take place in Soho, just after watching Aziraphale realise he's caught feelings for a demon, with the red glow of lust serving as the backdrop).

Do I think the kiss in and of itself was sexual? No. I think it was a passionate and devastating last-ditch effort on Crowley's part to convey the way he feels for Aziraphale. Not just that he loves him, but that he loves him in the most human way possible. But I do think that the kiss represents how they can move forward from here, and what they might want to explore with each other once they feel free enough to do so.

In Conclusion

I am sure, deep in my bones (unless we are explicitly told otherwise), that this was both of their first kisses no, I'm not counting the gavotte, and that neither of them have ever thought to do anything else physical with the humans while they have been on Earth. Like I said before, they adore the human race and lifestyle in general, but ultimately view them as a separate species altogether, and they seem mostly happy to keep to themselves and each other, unless otherwise necessary. I just can't see either of them being drawn enough to a human to pursue anything close to sex. If Crowley in particular has had anything to do with sex in the context of temptations, I'm positive he would be inciting lust amongst the humans themselves, not involving himself directly. At least not that directly.

So, like every other human experience they've had on Earth, sex is something new that they could explore together, just the two of them, on their own side. A deeply intimate, tangible declaration of their love and everything they've gone through to earn it. A visceral finger to give both Heaven and Hell. A renewed appreciation for their corporations and for each other's. A enjoyable method for immortal beings to simply pass the time in each other's company. A new and exciting way to Feel Good, and all the variations that come with it.

You might agree with this post, or you might not. Whether this is something that is ever addressed or not, it doesn't matter to me. This is a brilliant love story either way, and I genuinely feel so privileged to witness it.

But I just can't find it in myself to imagine, given everything we know about these two characters, that sex isn't an experience they would both consume with wholehearted enthusiasm, curiosity, and profound, ineffable adoration.

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Bonus feature: the very silly notes I made to myself that inspired this post

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jahiera · 8 months

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How To Know If Your Evil Vampire Boygirlfriend Really Likes You (a meta on Astarion's manipulations of Tav deeper into the romance.)

Okay, this was supposed to be a response to this ask right here, and it got so long I decided to just put it in its own thing for slightly easier reading. Thank you again to the asker for giving me an excuse to go off the rails talking about THE BOY. This also got long enough that it needs. Subheadings. And it is [checks notes] 3.6k words long. If you're interested in skipping the act 2 Scene Breakdown and going straight for the character analysis of Act 3 specifically, you can jump to the uhhh 3. Yeah He's Manipulative (Trauma Edition) subheading.

Prefacing that this is just my personal interpretation of Astarion here, the game leaves several moments ambiguous on purpose & I'd be super intrigued to hear what anyone else thinks is going on in this rancid little lad's head. This became more of a process of breaking down what I think he's doing in each scene than anything else, so I hope it's interesting to... you? reader? Since it's a bit long-winded and a lot of speculation and interpretation on my part for his wild ass behavior.

(Also, I haven't played far enough with an ascended Astarion to properly break down the differences between both--he'll have his own playthrough for sure but since I haven't gone far enough in that path, all of this is with no-ritual Astarion in mind) (I also don't have screenshots for everything but hopefully that's alright. just trust me bro.)

Fair warning, I didn't proof-read this & I moved paragraphs around so if it sounds incoherent that's a feature not a bug. Now. Let's get into the EVIDENCE.

1. but did he mean the kisses????

So, before the hug scene, the game leaves us a bit of room to interpret the progression of the relationship. I kind of wish we had one extra scene to sort of solidify his growing feelings in the in-between period of his "I'm just sleeping with you to secure my safety here," era (pre-confession as we'll call it) and his "oh shit I actually kind of care about you," era (post-confession, pre-ritual), but I understand why it wasn't included. Game mechanics & cost aside, the space between these two periods is left entirely up to player interpretation, & has lots of room for HC up to each individual player & Tav.

To address the easiest examples the asker gave, the repeatable kiss dialogues are all ones I'm going to mark under "sincere." Mostly because those are all post-confession, and after Astarion has acknowledged to himself (& the player) that he doesn't want to do anything sexual, but presumably kissing is fine (given that he's enthusiastic about the kisses & will shut down sex/intimacy acts otherwise.)

There's not really a logic to him being slinky here, and I didn't interpret any of his post-kiss repeated dialogues as insincere, much more so playful or coy or cheeky. The voice acting is subtle here, but I found it to be much more playful than his annoying little, for lack of a better word, purring "hello, beautiful" etc etc in act 1 / early act 2. Also, all these dialogues stay the same after the ritual happens, and your romance has been solidified in the grave scene, where he wholly says:

"I feel safe with you. Seen. And whatever the future holds for me, I don't want to lose that."

^ Not a lie. So I think we can mark off those particular dialogue as sincere.

In act 2, there aren't really a lot of places for Astarion to actually get into his manipulative tendencies. He overtly needs your aid with Yurgir (Repeat after me: thank you for helping me. It was very kind.) so he doesn't really manipulate you at... all...? in my opinion? Act 2 shows you his most sincere moment yet in the confession/hug scene. He is not lying. He is more honest in those moments than he has been in the entire game, and it shows in his wording, his body language. He's uncertain of himself, maybe. He doesn't know what to make of the situation yet. He says as much to Tav when you ask him "What are we?" and he says:

"I don't know. But isn't it nice? Not to know. You're not a victim. Not a target. Not just one night it's better to forget. But then... whatever in the world could you be?"

He has no reason to say that without sincerity. He could say you're his specialest babygirl if he wanted to keep up the lie. And other than helping him with Raphael, there's really not a moment where Astarion has an opportunity to manipulate you....

EXCEPT.

EXCEPT. For this moment in particular. which is one of my FAVORITE Astarion ones because it is gloriously bitchy.

2. what if we took over a cult, babe.

Context first: I played a paladin of devotion, rough around the edges but fairly good-aligned Tav. She was a bit of a jerk but she saved people for free, and I adhered to her dialogue roleplay hard, choosing the "destroy the Absolute" dialogues at every turn. I don't have a save for this scene sadly otherwise I'd replay it and compare/contrast answers like a pepe silvia meme, so I'm only able to break this scene down from that particular lens.

Secondary context: This scene is important because it highlights Astarion's manipulative routine while still with a Tav he's very fond of (exceptional approval in this scene) and the way he lays it out is necessary to understand the moments later where he tries to manipulate Tav again, since it has components of the same themes, ideas, and tendencies that go on.

So, Astarion will hit you with this hot take early-ish on.

"You know. I feel a connection between us. Like we're two souls walking the same path (...)" Astarion establishes emotional connection, and a foundation of similarity/commonality/shareed interest. This is pretty standard fare for him. He does the same thing a lot early in act one, where he's almost CONSTANTLY asking you to "trust him," (when you really should not.)

"You might be a little naive in the ways of the world, but I see promise in you. Ambition." - He kind of snidely reveals what he actually thinks--you're a bit naive, you "have a big heart,"--he's hoping that his emotional cloying and little comment and connection with Tav will be enough to sway them over to what he wants to do, and they'll give him what he wants because We're So Similar, See?

"So I was thinking, what would be the right thing do when we get to Moonrise Towers?" - He wields his language carefully. The right thing to do. That's a language he thinks Tav speaks. An interest in doing the Right Thing; so, he adjusts accordingly. He wants to do the right thing too, you see, and the right thing conveniently lines up with what he actually wants, which is real power. Astarion confesses he's not a details guy, yada yada, then--

"If we can take that control from them, imagine the power we'd wield." <- He lets slip what he's actually interested in. Astarion generally can't keep a charade up for too long. His real thoughts always come through, and he reveals his hand in conversations often, but usually in offhanded ways and, well--he's never made a secret really of where his actual interests lie. His attempts at currying your favor and persuading you (and you can really feel the persuasion here) are prettyyyyy overt, but still, he's trying anyways.

"I'm just saying there's an opportunity here. If we can control the tadpoles, we can keep ourselves safe and liberate the world from this evil." <- He brings the conversation back around to what's more neutral than Absolute Power -- keeping ourselves safe. He uses the We and Us language a lot when he wants to convince other people of anything, really. "We're all such good, trusting friends!" he'll say, lying through his FUCKING teeth. His manipulations here are like.... pretty clear, but he still gets an A for effort for trying to align himself with Tav & Tav's perceived goals & see if he can wriggle in his own in the process, put "become god-cult-leader" up as a Reasonable and Rational thing to Want to achieve.

The actual question here: does he care about Tav at this point? Up for interpretation, but I'm going to say yes with... the caveat that I don't think he's fully acknowledged it to himself, and I don't think it's love here. It is high approval though. I do think he cares about Tav, I do think he's including Tav in longer-term goals, he's depending on Tav at this point as an ally he can count on, and he's starting to get chipped away at.

I don't even really think it's a lie that he on some level would like to see Tav safe, and takes their wellbeing into account. He's been with them long enough to worry over their safety to some extent, and to at least partially lump it in with his own (in my opinion). Is that love? I don't think so. "We can finally be safe," is a reoccurring theme in the other scene I'm going to break down in just a second. And it's interesting for a lot of reasons.

And furthermore: you can care about someone and still be manipulative toward them. That's a core thing going on here, I think, with Astarion.

3. Yeah He's Manipulative (Trauma Edition).

"Is Astarion Manipulating Me In Act 3? " YES. A little bit. And here's why it's INTERESTING.

So, the confession scene in act two has already happened. Astarion has confessed some of his big mushy feelings to you. He likes you. You've slammed the "can I kiss you?" dialogue 100 times already because you're really super normal about the vampire twink. He doesn't know what to make of his caring about Tav yet. See: his "what are we??" dialogue.

MOVING ON. Astarion is also, a manipulative little shit, and he will NOT change his ways just because he likes you a lot and giggles when you give him a little kissy kiss.

Astarion is deeply, deeply traumatized, and his trauma has in his own words makes him act out the same cycles of behavior that he did prior to escaping Cazador. In its most obvious format, one of those behaviors was seducing Tav because that was the kind of behavior he knew, and it was the only thing he could think of to secure his own safety. By act 2, he's somewhat aware of the cycle, but--

Traumatic behaviors, like anything relating to surviving abuse & getting out of it, come and go in waves. You'll likely not find a survivor of abuse who doesn't revert back to coping mechanisms at times, especially in moments or episodes of heightened stress, or being put back into the old environment again. ->

Astarion going back to Baldur's Gate--and specifically with killing cazador in mind--is him going back to that same place where traumatic events occurred... almost constantly. Thus, he goes back to his old behaviors. Not to the exact same level, but it is there.

Safety. THIS is a word that comes back a lot with Astarion, it is one of his most reoccurring (if not the most) themes. He wants to feel safe. He associates power with safety, because the safest person in the world--as in, literally safe, not "safe for other people"--in his mind, is Cazador, who is powerful enough to repel any threats to himself & what he owns, has, possesses, and keeps.

Astarion is still, at his core, no matter what, self-serving. He will do what's best for himself first and foremost in almost every circumstance you put him in. Or at least, he will want to--if Tav or someone else stands in his way, and he sticks it out, it'll be begrudgingly. That's a fundamental aspect of his character & to try and do away with it makes no sense.

And in case it got lost, I'll reiterate that I do think Astarion's actual feelings for Tav at this stage are entirely genuine, & deeply felt. It shows, and it's obvious. He's just got several layers of behavior going on in the process.

"But I thought astarion liked me??? why would he consciously choose to manipulate me??" The thing is, once again, you can like someone and still try to manipulate them, pull on their heartstrings, or quite frankly guilt trip them into helping you kill like, a lot of fucking people so you can become godlord supreme emperor of mortals and vampire kind.

Let's get into the second scene I want to break down. Keeping all of what we've established above about how Astarion goes about establishing connection & togetherness & the idea of shared safety to sway Tav over to his side.

So let's set up one thing for sure. It's pretty obvious, everyone gets this scene, but let's set it up anyways.

"What's a handful of the wretch's servants? IF they're anything like me when I was enslaved, they'll all be begging for death anyways." <- apathy toward others, generally motivated by self-interest, lack of empathy for others' plights, a callousness that is fairly unrepetant. He's fairly sure this is what he wants, and--

"After two hundred years of pure shit, I think I deserve something better." Again, Astarion tells us exactly what he's thinking. And what he believes. And he's not wrong! He does deserve something better than what he had before. Or, at least, he doesn't deserve the level of cruelty he endured at Cazador's hands. However.

And then he follows it up with, "I know you do [care]. It matters to me too. I want to be able to protect you too." <- finally, we come back around to the reoccurring theme he'll use to sway Tav over to his side. He sees the soft point of Tav in the conversation--they care about him--and he needles that in; they care about him, he cares about them, they should help him complete the ritual for it, it's what's best for everyone. Except for the 7000 spawn, but. You know.

NEXT IMPORTANT SCENE. let's take a look at the scene that follows after you confront his fellow vampire spawn in the tavern.

I'm keeping the full screencap so I can keep his shifty little look in here. It's not the best format, I wish I'd kept videos, the body language & voice acting adds a lot to this moment, but. Neil you're so good at balancing Astarion's careful shiftiness, his gleeful/vindictive revelry at being so close to his end goal & confronting his siblings without flinching, his coy little pleading, and his near desperate watchfulness. He needs Tav. He cares about Tav, yes, but he needs Tav to help him.

Astarion is, again, fairly callous about the deaths of his brethren. You have to remind him time & again to maybe empathize with their suffering & similarity to him. But each time he reverts back to, "their lives" serving a greater purpose.

Astarion then follows that up with "But we're a team. If I become all powerful, then we become all-powerful." <- I think he genuinely does think of himself & Tav as a team, and as a good one at that. More than anything, Tav is the first person Astarion, in his own words, feels he truly cares for. They've killed a few gods chosens together, Tav has given him respect, patience, care. He feels fairly assured of their presence & kindness at this point. And assurance tends to breed............. let's call it, taking for granted?

I believe he's trying to again emotionally bid for their help & loyalty as much as gauge if they're still with him, as he does by going -> "We are a team after all. You're still with me?" Once again, the easiest way to secure aid is through emotional connections; someone's attraction to you, or better yet, their care for your well-being, are easy strings to pull on to try and entice someone to do what you want them to do. It's not necessarily maliciously intended, but it is a kind of manipulation.

"But Astarion just genuinely wants to know you're on his side!" Yes. And he also really wants you to help him with the ritual. ANY arguments against the idea that he's benignly trying to manipulate Tav's feelings, I'm just gonna put up this screencap right here, one of the last times he bids for Tav's affection & loyalty in this, in this particular conversation:

Look at his stupid pouty face and his "You want what's best for me, surely?" and oh god the voice acting. We're smacked right in the face with Act 1 Astarion's slinky, whiny little "truuuuust me it'll just be a taste I promise <3333" voice. That PURE "I'm trying so hard to connive my way into your good will because I REALLY want this." voice.

His strength is your strength. And he will pleading face emoji his way through getting you over to his side if he needs to. It's honestly so funny, how the writing plays out, because SEVERAL times you can choose to fully fall for it, "yes of course I want whats best for you / want you to be safe / feel good" and every time, he's like "I know I know <333 and I want YOU to feel safe too <3333" and I don't even think that's a lie! I don't think it's a LIE, I just think it's the same pattern of manipulative behavior he's exhibited time and again even when he cares for you.

Astarion is still Astarion. He is very willing to kill, lie, and cheat his way through just about anything to protect himself, & all of that makes PERFECT sense for him. And if you're not on board with his plans, of course he will use every tool at his disposal to get you on board. It is, after all, what's best for both you and him. His power is your power.

4. "I'm doing this for you too." He said, lying. Or genuinely believing that but lying to himself too and executing it in the weirdest way imaginable.

So, this is probably my favorite interaction in the entire Astarion romance. Love the grave scene. Love the horny evil vampire turning. But this moment in particular is fucking brilliant, because it illustrates the dilemma here perfectly.

Astarion outright tells us exactly why he is the way he is, and why he cares for Tav while being able to be so cruel and callous about others. "No one ever looked out for me [...] you're the only one." Tav is exceptional--as in, THE EXCEPTION to the rule--because they cared for him in a way no one else ever has. He has ZERO reason to even bother lifting a finger for anyone else besides himself, because in his mind, none of them ever bothered to help him, why should he bother with them. But TAV. Tav he can make promises too.

On some level, I do kind of believe him when he says things like "I'm doing this for you too." -- As in, I believe that he believes that he's taken Tav into account here as well. I do think he genuinely thinks they'll be an even more magnificent duo of glorious bastards together once he's God Vampire Emperor Of Eternity. And on some level, he's probably right. They do take over the world together in some endings, so. Good for them.

However, do I think he's primarily motivated by anything but himself? No. Tav also benefitting from his mega vampire powers is just a bonus in a laundry list of reasons why Astarion wants to ascend at this point in the game. Why Astarion is willing to pull out every guilt-trippy, pleading face to get Tav to help him, if they show even a hint of reluctance. More than anything: Astarion is a survivor, and a survivor of severe abuse that pretty quickly explain why he is the way he is. Does that excuse what he does in the aftermath of that abuse, when it comes to harming other people? Not really. But it explains it pretty clearly.

Because Astarion is back where he came from, he's immediately thrust back into the cycles of behavior that both traumatized him & were what he had to do. The pattern of behavior, coping mechanisms, rooted in traumatic cycles, that he has done time and time and time again that has successfully gotten him, not what he wants, but what he needs to survive. Does his manipulation of Tav here mean he doesn't care? Not at all. It's just that he needs this work. He needs his allies to help him make it work, and he's willing to pull out every stop to see Cazador dead and himself with enough power to never feel so helpless or vulnerable again.

Astarion can love you & still be himself. He will never stop being a bit bitchy, a bit conniving, extremely focused on self-preservation at all costs. He might not seek out active maliciousness, but even in act 3 after the ritual, he still approves of generally being a sneaky bastard, taking short cuts, taking easy ways out. And none of this is necessarily... a problem? It isn't ""moral"", sure, but it's not really a problem. In some endings, he can pursue ""better"" paths, but his general deceivery and typical behavior aren't going away. Feature, not a bug. How each Tav feels about his ... fairly obvious deep romance manipulations is up to each player though, and that is what's interesting for each playthrough.

There are five more essays to write in here. There's the Astarion after the ritual, who agrees that fine, killing 7000 people is wrong. And there's the Astarion after the ascension, who is now fully entrenched in the idea that Power Is Everything, and all that means for him afterward, and his visceral, intense, obsessive controlling dynamic with Tav where they descend into Chaotic Vampire Evil Marriage. And there's Astarion and Tav together finally, honestly, openly, with the heart-wrenching intimacy of the grave scene. And this is almost 4000 words so I'm shutting the fuck up here.

So. I will end this by saying I'm peeling him like an onion rn I'm obsessed with him. He's gods horrible princess and he's never going to die.

#astarion #bg3 #bg3 meta #the fact that I'm sitting here like 'okay but I'm not even taking into account...'#Astarion.. you vainglorious hilarious evil twink. Why are you so complicated. I'm obsessed with you.#if this flops we don't talk about it okay....#also I'm not sure but if you need a tone disclaimer my jokes/insults/teasing is all complimentary. unfortunately #I love him deeply. and want to put him in a bag of rice and shake him really hard.#bg3 spoilers

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evelynpr · 1 year

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How IN LOVE are the Genshin cast with the Traveler? An ANALYSIS of the cast's affinity for them based on voice lines, events and other media!

This goes for both Aether and Lumine, and even Paimon occasionally for the friendship/family tier! If there is anyone or smth I missed please feel free to add I love studying character relationships!!! Of course you are free to interpret these differently, or see it as "something more" if you wish hehe ;)

Lowest Tier : Friendly-er

These characters are here because they are not the type to have many friends, but traveler is special to them, not romantically

Raiden Ei - I interpret their relationship as one that is trying to build a stable friendship, but still recovering from past events slowly. Ei has done a lot of harm both directly and indirectly at the traveler, but has gone through the events of the quest to re-center herself in which the Traveler helped greatly. Deeply thankful is what I'm lead to believe, but casual is still iffy because of Ei's acts of cutting off all close connections in the past.

Shenhe - She is very protective of the traveler, because they were her earliest friends (yes Paimon too) and her story does revolve around her learning to fight for others (I find their friendship very sweet, but not romantic at all since Shenhe has a much longer way to go in understanding social relationships) (I'm kinda surprised I've never seen someone ship this romantically actually-)

Diluc - Definition of a Gentleman when it comes to the traveler. He always offers his support, gives his hand-picked grape juice to them for free, etc. He always sees them in high regard and trusts them greatly (but you could probably say he does the same for Kaeya, Jean, Adelinde, Elzer, basically anyone he sees as family)

Ningguang - She says herself that she keeps her friends few because of the dangers her enemies pose on those who are close to her, but as Liyue's protector she puts great trust in the traveler. Her hangout imo shows that she generally trusts us more than a business partner but as a friend (very wholesome, but nothing more than that and that's cool!)

Razor - Traveler is Lupical. Razor is inherently very protective of the people he cares about because of feeling like he failed to protect his lupical in the past (I believe that's the story behind his vision). So obviously it is not romantic, but his interactions with the Traveler, Paimon, his family and friends are just so special and heartwarming especially in his latest event (SO SWEET I LOVE FOUND FAMILY)

!! SPOILER FOR WANDERER'S STORY QUEST !!

Scaramouche/Wanderer/babygirl/whatever you named him - He clearly doesn't have that many companions (or even any at all), even less those who he shows any sign of vulnerability to. Personally I see it as one of the most interesting traveler relationships in the game yet because they both do not fully trust each other, nor fully accept the other as a friend, but because of him revealing his trauma and past to him, and also the traveler also revealing a part of their own mind and longing, they have an understanding of each other like no one else does. (I do not see this as romantic, but more like a camaraderie which may lead to a deeper connection in the future)

Side note: Most of the playable cast are friends with the traveler, I point out these people specifically because they don't show vulnerability often, or already have other of friends so these relationships have another level of importance to the character.

Middle Tier : Flirty~

These guys are sweet talkers, may or may not be into the traveler

Kaeya - He kinda just talks like that if you ask me. He genuinely cares for the traveler and the other Knights and his family, but his language is just one of the ways he puts on his persona (As Razor would put it, his "fake smile")

Lisa - "Hey cutie-" makes me feel things, ok. Other than that though, nothing tells me she's into the traveler any more than a flirty way? I mean she appreciates them for their skills and support but I think it ends there?

Kazuha - man is a sweet talker honestly. Of course he also cares for the traveler deeply, but his poetic and colorful language is from his own nature, and the traveler generally has a special presence (His language IS very pretty if you ask me haha) (I feel some would say its more *suggestive* than others so that's up to you already lmao)

If there's anyone else you think has a rather *flavorful* way of speaking to the traveler, please do let me know :> If you think these have deeper meaning though, that would be interesting

Above Average Tier : Very sweet, could be something more?

Pseudo-canon material (the comics and hangouts are great man)

Thoma - You give him flowers in his hangout, and in another ending he gives you his omamori which is very sentimental to him. Thoma is generally an incredibly sweet person, so interpret it as you please haha <3

Heizou - This is pretty romantic if you ask me (depending on your taste). He keeps saying how much he wants you to be his "partner" (technically in the investigation sense), and has dialogue about how he feels comfortable around you, it's very sweet and has potential. Not to mention "Traveler, you are so dreamy~" (I swear this guy is 80% fanservice but do you see people complaining?)

Noelle - Her hangout was really adorable, it had a very innocent and young long vibe throughout it and it's just cuteness overload :> (What I would call a babyship)

Childe - Chilumi (not counting Aether) is basically canon in one of the side comedy comics, but in game, it's implied they do battle for fun, traveler does still keep their guard up around him, but his story quest shows he puts great trust in the traveler despite their differences.

Highest Tier : VERY interested, in love even

These are all in game, and pretty canon events (Teapot lines may still be questioned on how canon they are, but further reinforce the mindsets and affinity for the traveler these characters have) (of course it still has headcanon and my own stupid simp heart but bear with me okay?)

Albedo - He always talks abt how interested he is in you (not just scientifically anymore lmao), and suggested for you to live (totally not with him) in Dragonspine. He also trusts them more than others quite explicitly. He is, I believe, deeply enamored by them because of their kindness, strength, intelligence and reliability because the traveler is the person he is most comfortable with. They are the reason he wants to interact with others more as well (Shadows Amidst Snowstorms +Teapot highlights this). The teapot lines are just the icing on the cake, man is making a MOVE on the traveler for REAL by asking him out and showing how he wants to spend more time with them.

Xiao - I feel like despite how common this pair is, it's quite overlooked just how much Xiao trusts and admires the traveler. Xiao is very sensitive about people calling him by his name to use it to control him (that is what his old master did to him) so the fact that he tells only the traveler (not just suggest mind you) to call him anywhere anytime using HIS NAME, are massive displays of vulnerability, trust and protectiveness. (I believe that protection is his main way of showing affection because others are currently an anomaly to him) Xiao also both literally and emotionally feels a calming presence around them because of their healing ability and kindness. He also just can't say no to them, and wants to understand the traveler more even if it means in partaking in "dumb human activities"

Ayaka - She sees so much freedom and beauty in the traveler it is so sweet, and it's quite obvious how much she wants to spend time and be closer with the traveler emotionally (maybe I am just a simp but please she is so tender and sincere) It is also mentioned repeatedly how much she talks about them in very high regard. Once again the teapot lines are just the sugary coat on top with "May I...hold your hand?" being one of them (I screamed like I just won 50/50 in one pull with that line)

!! SMALL SPOILER TO WANDERER'S STORY QUEST !!

The old lady of the Kamisato Estate also mentions how thrilled Ayaka is every time they're around, and also talked about how talented and admirable they are. She also implied that they are Ayaka's "Knight in Shining Armor" and that she talks about them all the time. Idk if you need anymore convincing at this point of how much Ayaka likes the traveler after that.

SIDE NOTE : I find it refreshing and fascinating how the genders actually seem quite mixed and what relationships characters have with the traveler are varied. I really appreciate the writing team for the amount of detail they put into them!

AND THAT'S IT FOR NOW!!! This is my longest post yet soooo THANK YOU SO MUCH IF YOU MADE IT THIS FAR AND ACTUALLY READ THIS!!

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skysquid22 · 1 year

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What Makes Jotaro Kujo The Most Powerful Stand User

Sorta. Arguably he’s beaten out (with good reason) by GER Giorno and Johnny’s Act 4 Tusk in terms of power, but in-universe he’s considered to be the world’s most powerful Stand user both by characters within the text treating him as such and the overall narrative.

Case shut, post over it seems, but let’s dig a little deeper into the why… besides being the main character.

The above screenshot frames Jotaro as the most powerful Stand user, but he doesn’t even have the most powerful version of his Stand in Diamond is Unbreakable (it’s actually the weakest). The Stand stats page for Stone Ocean’s Star Platinum reveals that the most powerful version of Jotaro is “when Jotaro was in his prime (18 years old).”

Narratively, the most powerful Stand user is Jotaro at the very tail end of Stardust Crusaders, after he has gained Time Stop. This is his prime. Another way to pop the bubble on my own analysis here is point out that canon focuses on this moment because it’s right when he kills DIO. Very much usurping a king to take the crown.

But before the story ended, we saw Prime Jotaro do something else which I believe is (also) what makes him the most powerful Stand user in existence. It’s a small, almost forgotten moment. Tucked in between Jotaro learning about Kakyoin’s death and reviving his grandfather.

It’s the time when Jotaro tries the impossible.

SDC Time Stop Jotaro isn’t considered the most powerful Stand user because he’s in his physical prime with a powerful ability. He’s considered that because this was the very moment he decided to try. That’s what makes him the most powerful Stand user.

Which makes it all the more painful meaning that the times that Jotaro fails are the moments were he doesn’t try enough.

More analysis below the cut. Spoilers for part 6 btw.

There’s that common joke pointing out how ridiculous it is that Jotaro tells Josuke that “you can’t bring back a life once it’s lost” after Josuke’s grandfather dies because Jotaro was literally able to do just that. Sure, the circumstances were different especially with the vampire blood giving immortality, but Jotaro’s attempt was to see if flushing Joseph’s body back with his Joestar blood would revive him, with no intention to turn him vampiric (which it doesn’t. Or it does and Joseph gets the immortality but not the rest of the bad side effects. Joestar blood is too op pls fix in next patch dev team). Regardless, it’s pretty odd and perhaps unintentional parallel that two grandfathers tip the bucket and one survives and the other’s grandson is told that the dead will always remain dead.

Speaking from a in-universe perspective, Jotaro’s speech to Josuke should be taken at as the truth. Bruno dies against Diavolo during their first encounter, with him essentially living as a ghost(/soul) within his own withering corpse thanks to Giorno’s intervention. More obviously in Stone Ocean, when Pucci finds Perla’s body and gets a memory of DIO telling him that there’s no way to bring back the dead.

So the one exception of cheating death outright is in Joseph being revived by Jotaro. It could be explained by the aforementioned vampire/Joestar blood BS. It could be a simple retcon that got established in DiU so a situation like Joseph wouldn’t happen again. Both interpretations make sense and I would agree with both.

However, I would like to argue that Joseph’s miraculous survival is not a narrative oversight. His revival is proof of Jotaro’s power as a direct result of Jotaro’s willingness to try. Jotaro plans for DIO and Joseph��s body to be put into the same ambulance to return the Joestar blood back to his grandfather. It’s an idea he’s not even sure that works, he asks the doctors if it was possible to transfer blood between the corpses. Joseph is very much dead at this point. If Jotaro calling Joseph’s body a corpse and seeing his soul float off wasn’t enough proof, the doctors immediately call the revival plan impossible/useless.

I want to stress this is the worst night of Jotaro’s life.

Right before this scene happens he overhears the radio confirm that Kakyoin is dead. He went into the final fight with DIO knowing Avdol and Iggy were both dead, upping the pressure to keep the rest of his friends/family alive. He watched his grandfather die right in front of him and DIO promptly desecrate the corpse. If it weren’t for his own actions, Polnareff would be dead too. He doesn’t know if he killed DIO in time either, from his perspective his mom could’ve died before he could save her in time. (Ha. Time.)

I suppose, in a sea of despondent despair, there was no other options than to cling to the impossible. After all, against all odds, he was able to learn Time Stop and kill DIO. He had to make it worth it. He was there to save his family, his friends died to save his family, if Joseph or Holly died… well.

He wanted to beat the odds again. And he did. In a way, this is him beating fate or at the very least—fate was literally in his hands and he made the decision to bring his grandfather back no matter what.

In DiU and beyond, Jotaro becomes resigned to fate and thus the weakening of his power overall. If fate determined that his friends would die in Egypt, then that would lessen the weight of blame on him and put their deaths as more of an inevitability. Fate is final. You can’t change it.

Jotaro doesn’t feel pressured to act upon something until he has to, then he does what he needs to be done. In SDC he doesn’t really care about women until they need to be saved or protected. In DiU he says he “hates doing anything tiring” as he saved Koichi from Sheer Heart Attack. He doesn’t visit Jolyne until she’s in jail because of a plot against him (and he couldn’t let DIO’s resentment ruin his daughter’s life).

The actions he takes are what he believes to be the best option, but that option is probably a compromise, not an attempt at the best possible outcome. His treatment to Jolyne is the subject here. He focused his priorities on keeping his family safe by baiting his enemies to himself instead of them, instead of trying to find a compromise where he could be with his daughter and protect her. I can’t blame Jotaro for this decision, but I also can’t avoid the simple fact that he hurt himself and his family for being distant. When fate does catch up, as he expects it to, it bites him in the ass—the stubbornness of DIO’s followers outlived Jotaro’s and he ends up in a coma, unable to act and unable to protect his daughter.

I don’t mean to say that effort isn’t shown by him, he’s extremely observational and analytical and uses those skills to his advantage in practically every fight he’s in. I think the Anubis fight is good proof of that, being brought to his physical limits to the point he can’t move after it. He tries plenty, but it seems clear to me that he tends to only lose when he’s not trying hard enough.

He almost died to a rat because he didn’t plan ahead and figure that the bullets would ricochet. In Stone Ocean, his Time Stop isn’t long enough to save everyone from Made In Heaven. He didn’t maintain his prime Time Stop or sought to expand it, because that was DIO’s goal or, more simply, he didn’t bother to. He went ten years of not needing to use it until Josuke forces him to.

Even with his ability becoming duller in later parts, the story and characters still treat Jotaro like The Most Powerful Stand User. In DiU, after the culmination of the Gang’s efforts, it’s up to Jotaro to stop Kira from reactivating BtD. In Stone Ocean, it’s up to Jotaro to kill Pucci when no one else is literally able to. Stardust Crusaders’ final fight is when Jotaro is completely alone, when there’s no one left but him to stop DIO.

The narrative again and again reenforces the idea that Jotaro is the strongest Stand user in the story, that everything falls on his shoulders and he is the one to make sure the evil dies and who’s left, lives. Past part 3, the narrative continues to say that he’s the most powerful Stand user, but it’s also clear that it’s not true anymore. His Time Stop isn’t as strong as it was in his prime. He no longer lives up to the expectation he made for himself in the few minutes after he killed DIO.

That moment in the ambulance, that’s the moment Jotaro tries without the pressure of death—the dust has already settled—or his own sense of justice—the evil has been fought. Joseph is dead and DIO is dead. Out of the desire and the off chance that he could hear his grandfather share stupid trivia with him, Jotaro reaches for the impossible, the best possible outcome, and gets it.

After the end of Stardust Crusaders, Jotaro no longer is at his ‘prime’. For someone who hates useless things, he becomes what he deems as useless. He’ll live the rest of his life in the shadow of his own self, the self that proved that he could do the impossible.

#jjba #jojo’s bizarre adventure #jotaro kujo #stardust crusaders #stone ocean #diamond is unbreakable #character meta #skyspeaks #my writing

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autumnoficarus · 6 months

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a brief analysis of Lokius and what their characters have to do with numbers, π, and mathematical constants

i really live for meta analysis on cinematography used in shows and movies, so i especially enjoy reading about analyzations of the loki series right now. one of the theories i've seen and immensely enjoy is the visual repetition of numbers throughout the show, and how they symbolize certain elements of the narrative. the fact that pie is significant - the mathematical ratio of π has a constant (3.14159 or 22/7) - and we watched characters being almost drawn there multiple times before the finale is just so neat to me. That being said, I'm not sure if I've missed anyone pointing this out yet - but I think THIS is a very interesting choice, even more so in how it's framed:

The way the scene above ends with Mobius positioned right next to that HUGE '2' is, I think, very telling. He's also standing so that the smaller '5' is almost completely obscured, letting the '2' be displayed more prominently (I'm not sure yet if there's more reason here behind '5' being used, other than that it's to further clarify where we're at in the timeline of the show (the location being where mobius' and loki's initial introduction took place) but I plan to re-watch the series from the beginning solely to find possible points of analysis that may have been missed soon. I will have to see if and how much certain numbers pop up in scenes). Putting the constant of pi and numbers theory aside for a moment, just having the '2' stand nearly as tall as Mobius and Loki while they shake hands and part for the last time...it's a pretty clear nod towards their partnership. I am convinced this was a set design choice to really hone in on the fact that these two characters when paired together are what was needed for a successful solution to the multiverse's instability. Here's my reasonings for that:

Firstly, I think this could have multiple meanings or house numerous symbolizations, but I'm gonna really try to stay on focus and as close to how I interpret the significance of π as I can. Straight away, we could say the '2' is a throwback to the theory of fundamental constants as it is a variable of π's equation. However, I want to break down why I believe the variable's even factor can correspond with what we know about these characters.

1) Mobius represents order in its purest form, which embraces the importance of chaos (which is then mirrored by Ravonna's own representation, order that oppresses chaos and why that inherently cannot WORK). If we think about physics for a moment, or even basic mathematics, integers exist to be combined, divided, and shared - right? And without divisions of integers that create remainders or function improperly, we wouldn't have constants (such as π). Without equations that use both even and odd qualities, there wouldn't be the natural continuum of real numbers that we rely on in order to understand our universe. Mobius' character constitutes as one side of an equation - the side of order and, more specifically, an integer that can further divide into equal distribution - where the sum is a functional constant.

2) I personally like to further interpret how Mobius's character could overall stand for the '2' in π's constant through the fact that two being equally divisible means he has an equivalent amount of 'order' to his mindset as he does 'chaos'. Both components make Mobius who he is and that's ultimately the reason he's 'order at its purest'. And I know I'm silly and crazy, but I'll dive even deeper here. It can also be argued to be just as meaningful that '2' is able to divide and share the same amount of something because of how we see in the show that Mobius' patience, empathy, and other positive qualities start to reflect - and be matched - in Loki's growth as a character.

3) Another thing I want to point out is that there would be no 'change' without sums that end irrationally or are absent of means to be expressed. In other words, if mathematics lacked equations that ended in remaining values and instead only functioned via numbers that divide until nothing is left then there would never be any outcome that can undergo change. Everything would always zero out, and - of course - we saw what happened if the sum is always 0; Timely's invention fails, the Loom still overloads, and no one survives the outcome. Mobius is a necessary factor because of his divisible qualities and sense of order, but so is Loki because without them changes wouldn't be possible. As a duo, they are both equal parts transformed and combined to produce the right outcome of events.

4) Of course, Mobius alone does not finish the equation. It is in the combined efforts of Mobius and Loki that we see a successful end in the finale. Loki does not accept their burden and ascend the throne to become the God of Stories until their last conversation with Mobius where they are reasonably lost on how to solve the problem of the multiverse ending. Mobius' influence, both the entirety of his presence within the series and in the last bit of advice he gives to Loki, is what provides the final results of Loki's arc. Likewise, Mobius doesn't leave the TVA and avoids knowing about his life on the timeline until Loki sacrifices themselves so he can still have that choice to look. And then when he does look, it's heavily implied that Mobius was encouraged by Loki's words during their discussion over pie ('never look, never know'). The sum of their journeys are only achieved after knowing and changing the other. Their arcs and the multiverse status are left uncompleted until they come together as the two variables of an irrational fraction that creates a circle (a loop with a beginning and an end).

5) Returning to my first point and the significance of Mobius + order, we are meant to regard Loki as his opposite. Loki is 'chaos in its purest form', and during Loki's arc they learn to accept the consequences, and viability, of life devoid of any structure (again having a mirrored version in Sylvie who is seen to function under similar chaos, but refuses any semblance of order; this only creates problems that then divide into even more problems. We get confirmation that Sylvie's mentality - like Renslayer - does not WORK, which is seen in Loki's numerous attempts to fix the domino effect that Sylvie starts by killing HWR). Order and chaos being meaningful and having their own separate potentials to be good and bad has been a running theme in this show. Entropy is needed - just like irrationalities and remaining values in mathematics - for life to thrive, but there needs to be a balance in place. Disorder and the regulation of disorder is a necessary constant, and Loki becomes that constant from the sum of their and Mobius' relationship.

6) Hear me out: Loki being at the heart of Yggdrasil is a lot like how the automat was the center of the TVA. The automat had an endless source of pie; Loki fueling the 'tree of life' with their magic creates continual growth and rejuvenation of the multiverse's branches. The finale showed us that the sum of Mobius' and Loki's partnership results in the perfect equilibrium of chaos and order, which becomes the solution to what had been an unsolvable equation - even for HWR. The culmination of their shared bond provides a foundation for the multiverse going forward, and Loki's ability to maintain it stems from the purpose and love that they found from that bond. Notably, the constant of π - 22/7 - is an irrational number. When expressed, its decimal is known to be non-repeating and non-terminating. The multiverse is now a non-repetitive, non-terminating constant that - I say, once again, with feeling - is established only by Mobius and Loki growing and changing because of each other.

I'm not sure if anyone will find this small observation in the goodbye scene and my subsequent insane ramblings interesting, but uhhh. This is just one of the many things I haven't been able to get out of my head since the finale, and I desperately needed to write out at least some of these thoughts or lose the last of my marbles (now asking for donations of any unused marbles towards my mental state, thank you).

#i am currently charlie day pointing to a conspiracy wall full of red string with a cigarette #i wrote a lot and feel like i said nothing tbh #loki spoilers #loki meta #lokius meta #loki series #lokius #marvel #txt: icarus foaming @ the mouth analysis

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cleradinel · 1 year

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I'm really live and let live with hcs and theories, but i think i just really don't get the bi Mike thing. Because i keep seeing people say Mike is bi but when i actually see the posts explaining why (which is Really rare too, it's usually just treated as 'clearly obvious' which is also interesting) there's always scenes getting ignored. Things like Mike kissing El and obviously caring about her immensely get mentioned, but then the sibling and cousin coding (even right before their first kiss) just gets ignored. "Boys only" isn't worth analyzing, it's just wording (but Will saying "a day free of girls" is still obviously gay coding). Mike not kissing El back in s3 gets acknowledged but him pulling her hands off his face at the beginning of the season doesn't get mentioned. Everyone having posters of people they're attracted to (Nancy, Steve, etc) on their walls is just accepted as fact but Mike only having posters of buff guys still means he's into girls. And so on

What's even wilder is that I've seen multiple people claim they Don't think Mike was ever into El but still think he's bi which is just. ?. I don't get it. Because outside of El he hasn't shown anything you could even Pretend is attraction to girls. Canonically he's had little contact with girls because they "think he's gross", didn't care for Max when she showed up, didn't care for the dragonslayer princess or Phoebe Cates, doesn't have any female fictional characters he admires, AND didn't get Argyle falling for pretty girl Eden. El is really the only thing you could sort of try to justify any attraction to girls in any capacity (and even that's rocks in canon)

Bi Mike just confuses me because all posts arguing in favour of it always ignore certain scenes. And yeah obviously, they have to it's because you just can't explain them from the bi angle. It's just odd to me that so many people argue it's equally as canon supported as gay Mike when there's multiple instances that have to be overlooked for the theory to hold up. Not trying to sound rude, hcs are obviously cool, i just don't get why bi Mike is argued to be canon so much when the show contradicts it multiple times (coming from a bi person btw)

i'm a live and let live too ! i'm no headcanon police and i am nobody to tell you what to do or how to think. i like pointing stuff out i find interesting and if those things i'm pointing out (and many others have pointed out) leads me to believe wholeheartedly mike is gay, i'll allow myself to be passionate about that. (get heated ? sometimes i admit) (because i think it's an important thing to take into account when discussing him/elmike/byler/the narrative/where we've been and where we're going yadda yadda yadda)

i've seen bi mike posts that are more on the analysis side, but then those posts go on to say something like mike wasn't regretting telling will to dance with the girl (i don't think mike was like "no come back i am so consciously in love with you" at all, but more so "well this has me feeling In Ways i don't want to describe or think about) at the snowball, or that the ending of s3 is just solely about him being sad to see el and will go (i agree he is obviously sad about that, but literally what were those two back to back byler and elmike scenes about, considering their nature and content, if not mike getting confirmation he wants to date his dude bestie ? which i really, really think is the conclusion to his "i have an idea, boys only" moment) so again, even if we're both analyzing, we're truly not analyzing in the same way. i can't take those things as proof coming from a show that keeps hammering it over our heads that we have to think deeper and pull back the curtain. they don't want you to think of these scenes as nothing more than they appear on surface level. these are ga kinds of interpretations of these scenes. most of them saw a mike sad to be bidding his friends goodbye, you on the other hand, if you're trying to decipher what mike is thinking and what he's about, should probably be seeing something else.

everything you listed applying to both mike and will and definitely not to lucas and dustin (these two especially as way closer in age than like. steve and have way more scenes together) is something you should notice but alas- pretty girl eden was there to mock love at first though. even jonathan doesn't care for that haha i'll have to disagree on that being gay mike proof. if anything it's mike is a dirty little liar monologuing a lie proof.

i'll leave you with this : headcanons are cool, i don't care what you do with them. i hope you're having fun (i truly am) but *i* disagree it's as supported by canon as the gay hc. i, as in me myself and i, and if you disagree with me that is completely fine. you should be and feel free to do whatever you want with mike when you spin him around in your head for fun trying to understand who he is. but i will never not be confused by bi mike, as i think it is quite obvious he is gay.

#asks #anon #gay mike wheeler

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demonslayedher · 2 years

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Hi! Hope you're well!

Can I ask for a name analysis for Kokushibou? I know the meaning of the kanji but i wish there was a deeper analysis for what they would mean together. I saw some people saying it could be a reference to the bubonic plague but does it makes sense? Do you think it was chosen by Muzan or did he chose by himself? (since he seems to have more autonomy and respect from Muzan, maybe it was his choice?) What do you think?

Thank you so much for the hard work, your posts are always so helpful!

'Sup, Anon! A lot of analysis in the Japanese fandom also tends to start around looking at each individual kanji in demon names before putting them together, so a lot of the ways they would be thought of together are up to the imagination. Muzan's imagination, especially.

Starting there, I'd like to think it's possible Kokushibou was the first demon whom Muzan renamed (as I don't believe he changed Tamayo's name, and we don't know of any demons from before Tamayo and Kokushibou). It might had even been Kokushibou's wishes to receive a new name from his new master, as a sign of his loyalty to the person who entirely rebranded him. He does seem Kokushibou named his own sword, though, so we'll touch on that later.

Before we get into the meaning, I'd like to touch on the sound. Although the character for 'bou' is different, a compound kanji name that ends in 'bou' has a ring very similar to Tengu names (see a list of them in this article), though we already see the Tengu theme in both Urokodaki and Hantengu instead. As there is a lot of warrior monk imagery in Tengu lore I think that's why they have the character often associated with monks (坊), and while Kokushibo is clearly more samurai than warrior monk, by its sound it carries the same lofty, otherworldly warrior effect. At least, that is my personal impression. As for the kanji: 黒 koku - black 死 shi - death 牟 bou - pupil/eye... though it can also represent the sound a cow makes, 'mu' (I did check back to see if Kokushibou's final monstrous form was in any specific reference to cows, but besides the horns, I don't see a strong case of this. It's still funny to imagine a 'moooo' sound effect as he become engorged like that, though.)

There have also been theorists in the Japanese fandom who suspect this may be in reference to the Black Death, but I've also seen it pointed out that Muzan had certain distaste for illness probably wouldn't want a right-hand man so strongly associated with it. If it's interpreted as how he wanted Kokushibou to sweep through the demon hunters like the plague swept through Europe, that's one thing, and considering how much interest Muzan always had in foreign languages and culture it wouldn't surprise me if he had heard this news. The other idea that gets thrown around is that Muzan tends to make decisions on names based on appearances and abilities, and I wonder when he bothers to change names if that is the case. There's a sense that demons will develop their appearances and Blood Techniques based on innate desires of what they want to hone in on--for example, the Hand Demon found what worked for him and he kept developing that niche (really wanted to get his hands on Urokodaki, didn't he?). It's been proposed that Muzan chose 'black' because of Kokushibou's hair (that's... simplistic) and a reference to Kokushibou's multiple eyes. I'm going to come back to this idea in a moment.

As for the multiple eyes, it's thought that this was due to Michikatsu's jealous wish to see the Unseen World as Yoriichi did, so he developed that ability accordingly. While we have the phrase 'green with envy' in English, perhaps Muzan would had interpreted it as 'black with envy' though that still doesn't account for 'death' in the middle of the name, unless you want to think of envy as a 'deadly sin.' Even if you think that, I don't think Muzan cares. If we keep thinking about Kokushibou's desire to see into the Unseen World, and how this would had made him continue to develop eyes, this may account for all the eyes that cover his sword made of his own blood and bone: Kyokokukamusari, which is a mouthful. 虚 kyo - emptiness, crack/fissure 哭 koku - wail, moan 神 kamu - god/divinity/supernatural phenomenon 去 sari - eliminate, gone (like the past) (NOTE: Translations are rarely 1-to-1 equivalents, these kanji can encompass wider meanings and nuance depending on context)

My brain immediately put the last two characters together as 'god scatterer' which left mean interpreting the first two together as a sign of distress about the inherit meaningless of the world. There's a lot of ways you could read into it, I suppose, like viewed all together as how the cruel void (the Unseen World?) is a natural phenomenon that destroys his enemies, or something like that. Whatever it is, Kokushibou had either deep Zen philosophy or an Emo streak going on when and if he was the one to name that sword. It doesn't really seem like Muzan's naming taste. Let's back up. If we assume Kokushibou continually developed more eyes to more deeply see into the Unseen World, so deep that he could tell at a glance that Muichirou was his progeny, then I propose it's possible Kokushibou didn't originally have six eyes when he became a demon. What if he had four? As the word for "four" is synonymous with "death," that makes it an unlucky number...

..........so what I'm saying is, maybe the "shi" in the middle of the name is a pun that made Muzan feel clever.

#kokushibo #kibutsuji muzan #kny fandom theories and meta #kny nerdery

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wingletblackbird · 2 years

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Is there any evidence that people in Star Wars from the core planets have a arrogant or snobbish attitude to "outsiders"? I mean the example I can think of is Jar Jar, although he was from Naboo which was a core planet, and yet everyone (all humans I notice) dismiss him except the child characters. I do believe the Darth Plagueis novel mentions that the Galactic Senate was biased in favour of humans so maybe that reflects some social or institutional prejudice.

Well, before I get into this, I want to correct a misconception that Naboo is a Core World. It actually is a Mid Rim planet that is so far removed it is called "The Jewel of the Outer Rim." I talk some about how important that is here. Naboo is not considered by many to be civilized.

It is clear that the "Outer Rim Territories" are just that: Territories, without proper representation in the Republic, and without receiving full benefits. We see this implied in what Qui-Gon says to Shmi that if Anakin had been born in the Republic he would have been found early. And I don't think he just means that if Anakin had not been born on Tatooine specifically...simply being from the Outer Rim is often quite enough to be abandoned. And given Padme's comments about the Republic's anti-slavery laws, they ought to have a presence here, they just don't.

Also, where specism is concerned, Jar Jar becomes a junior representative in the Galactic Senate. This means he represented a minority group for his sector. Only Padme is allowed to vote though. Jar jar just represents. Padme likely listens to his input, but not every senator would. (Before her, did the Gungans even have representation?) The above likely plays out in many, many sectors where minorities have less input. Also, before joining the Senate, Jar Jar has to try and change how he spoke. He would be looked down on for his accent/dialect

In AotC, we see that there are planets separating from the Republic. We are never given much explanation in that movie as to why. However, other sources do demonstrate that the Outer Rim planets felt shafted while the Core Worlds benefited. In the Jedi Path, the Jedi outright say that the Inner Rim "mark the outermost limits of what most citizens consider civilizations." Clearly there is a lack of respect for the peoples towards the Outer Rim. And while the separatists were not exclusively Outer Rimmers, it’s no wonder many planets wanted to secede.

Some people said the Republic was too bloated. Maybe they hoped a smaller confederacy would mean getting to have more say. I bet that appealed to many minorities who we’ve already established we’re shafted even sometimes within their own sector.

And there are other issues that arise from all this: The Jedi go where the Senate sends them. Requests for help go through the Senate. This means that what happened is that the more influential and wealthy planets, who have more connections, tended to be disproportionately helped. I talk about this a bit here. In that post, I mention that Anakin has a vision of freeing slaves on Tatooine. This vision was interpreted as not being about freeing slaves on Tatooine, but about Anakin and Obi-Wan going to help Yaddle on a mission to Mawan. Anakin is rebuked for taking the vision literally, and while the vision was about going to Mawan, I think there is a deeper meaning to be found here. To quote myself:

A deliberate parallel is drawn in that vision between what is happening on Mawan, and what could happen on Tatooine. Both are planets taken over by Hutts, both have no way of enforcing justice, but only one is getting Senate help.

What was done on Mawan, could, and should have been done on Tatooine. Nevertheless, and unsurprisingly, no one bothers to suggest that the vision could have been talking about that as well. It would take too much effort. The cost-benefit analysis doesn’t add up. No one cares about people on a planet that cannot provide much obvious economic support, (outside of that dratted slave-trade), and which doesn’t catch the public eye, or stir controversial opinion. It’s just so much easier to ignore it. Why rock the boat?

Ultimately, Jar Jar really is an excellent example of these prejudices. So is what happens in TPM in general. Firstly, it demonstrates that there was some anti-nonhuman, speciesist sentiment, which we see expressed towards the Gungans. Additionally, the Nabooans struggle to be taken seriously by those who think that those Mid Rim/Outer Rim backwaters are uncivilized. Would the Trade Federation get away with what they try to do if they blocked trade from a Core World planet?

We see Qui-Gon snap at Jar Jar "the ability to speak does not make you intelligent." He never apologizes for this. Obi-Wan then says, "What's this" to which Qui-Gon replies "A local." and talks as if Jar Jar isn't there. However, annoying Jar Jar is, he is being polite; there's no call to treat him like this. Moreover, when Jar Jar is discovered to have information that can help them, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan bully him into helping instead of talking to him kindly.

Later on, we see Qui-Gon dismiss Padme when she says the Queen won't approve of what he is doing, and that Padme, apparently the Queen's representative, ought to trust his judgement. He is unbelievable dismissive. In doing so, he disrespects the ruler of a sovereign planet. Again, there's no call for him to be so arrogant/rude. There are better ways to handle the situation.

I also think we see something of an indictment of this behavior. The war on Naboo could not be won without Padme, who was summarily dismissed by so many, being willing to do what the Jedi didn't. She listens to Jar Jar and respects the Gungans. As a result, she gets an army. She treats Anakin kindly, even before he is shown to have the Force strongly with him. He helps her, and later blows up the Federation ship. These people who are ignored and dismissed are the ones who wind up saving the day, and even temporarily setting back Palpatine's plans.

So basically, yes, many Core-Worlders were prejudiced against people who weren't. There were also some prejudices against different species. And all of this affects the decay of the Republic.

#republic critical #jedi critical #naboo #outer rim #core world #prejudice

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chessere · 10 months

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Ethan Winters. Simon Jarrett. Existential Horror. Something. It's 3 AM Man.

First of all I have to say that I've never played SOMA myself before. When I say I'm horrible with horror I really mean it, but the core theme of the game and how it deals with humanity has been a huge source of inspiration for me for a while. The best part is you don't even have to play the game yourself. Just listening to video essays is enough to make you think for hours if you're not careful lol

Obviously spoilers for both SOMA and RE8, but like, the games are out for years now...

The point is, I feel like understanding Simon Jarrett would help with understanding Ethan Winters a lot better, and why just excepting that he's molded might not work for him. I feel like they have some similarities in terms of their existential horror but SOMA showed it better as it was the whole point about the game, while RE8 is left to be just an underlying thoughts as it was more action-focused... If you can't explain it properly using one game, then use another game baby!!!

Now, I don't think Capcom thought that far ahead, but hey, nothing wrong with trying to humanize your favorite character, right? That's my dad, y'know? So in that way it's pretty much a personal interpretation rather than an actual analysis. Again. It is also 3 AM right now. Hot damn.

Pretty early on in SOMA, you encounter a robot, or a Mockingbird, to be exact, who still thought of himself as a human. He fully believed himself to be an injured human and asked the protagonist to help him. Telling him that he was a robot would anger him, and he'd tell you he still had arms and legs... Or after that, another brain scan that shut himself down from stress once he realized something was wrong and had to be convinced that the simulation was real for him to give up. And then there's Simon himself, too. Initially, Simon also saw himself as a human, flesh and all. Only when he looked into the mirror did he become aware of his true appearance. Do you see what I'm getting at here. The brain does weird things to keep itself together is another thing that was also presented in SOMA.

Not only that, but Simon was also repeatedly explained about the process of brain scanning and how it works, how they'd always be left behind while it was their copies that would live on, but he simply couldn't comprehend it, or rather he wouldn't listen. Repressed, in denial, whatever. It was, after all, an awful truth. Anyways, the last thing Simon knew he was a normal guy with a brain injury, and then he wasn't anymore, but he didn't know that and kept thinking he was normal up until a certain point, sounds familiar?

The point is, you could probably apply the same thought process to Ethan, too, although less extreme as he didn't suddenly wake up a robot. I see a lot of people questioning why Ethan thought he could just reattach his hand and not realize that there was something wrong with him. Personally I think that what if, on a certain level, he did know that he wasn't normal anymore, hence immediately coming to the conclusion that he could just reattach his limbs, but he never questioned it or dig deeper because his brain shut it out to keep itself together. He died, literally. Foot to the head right after his wife chainsawed his arm off. That HAD to be one hell of a trauma. And by the time he finally realized he died, Ethan was angry and had a one-track mind. He did freak out for a bit when Eveline broke it to him ("Then what am I?") but he didn't have time to have a crisis. He had to pull himself together ("Family? F-Family? No! Rose! I have to...save...my daughter!") and save Rose. Then he died before he had a chance to fully comprehend the real horror that lies beyond his superficial humanity.

(I also think he's dubiously human as hell. Best case scenario is the mold revived him and he retained his consciousness. Worst case is the real Ethan died right there and the Ethan that lived on was an archived consciousness, or the mold integrated with him so well it inherited his memories and thought it was Ethan Winters. You can pick whichever you like. A little existential dread is fun once in a while-)

There's not much to talk about here but there's also a pretty interesting parallel at the end where the brain scan of Simon got launched into the ark, and as for Ethan, an archive of his consciousness lives on in the realm of consciousness.

That's probably enough for today I think. I really need to sleep instead of rambling about a fictional man's potential existential dread jfjdjfjjdjfj

#ethan winters #resident evil #resident evil 8 #resident evil village #SOMA #simon jarrett #i'm sanecore normalpilled about ethan yeah #rambles

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cosmicharmonyoc · 1 year

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warning: what follows is a way too long analysis of With My Tail To The World by patricia taxxon as a den song. and its written kinda badly bc im so sleepy but oh well <3 woe, oc playlists be upon ye

i guess to start - the entire sound of this is SO den. the energy in the synths. the way its pushing forward. there's this bright exciting energy to all of it and it's so so den!! me and den r both stimming to this song :3 and then the way the synths get a bit darker in the chorus but keep up that energy.... OUGH its so cool

ok so lyrics time

You would know me if you saw me on the road / I’m imposing, I’m explosive, I’m precocious, I’m the most

den's whole personality that he presents to the world is the MOST - enthusiastic and silly and energetic and optimistic and positive. now that he's on the elpis, he's crafted a version of himself that is impossible to hide, who is loud and bright and loving.

Can you sing along? / I don’t hold you to the best, but / Can’t you see the lines and dots? / Don’t you feel as if you’re missing something?

a lot of things here. a) can you sing along - music - cosmic harmony. music is a big theme for the story and just :3 . b) this is starting to get to how den perceives the world. he's an artist, and a lot of how he interacts with the world is through that lens. he interprets the world by thinking in terms of art - can you see the lines and dots?

I’m a skeptic of the senses, I don’t think you’ve broke / The terror found in relishing pretention, I don’t think you’ve spoke / To any of your characters, purveyors of your barriers / The scariest it gets is far behind the world you know, so...

ok i wont lie and pretend i understand any of this ghjk i love the lyrics so much though!! what i do think happens here is like... den's this character who calls identity into question. in a story all about identity and figuring out who you want to be, den is all about like... purposefully crafting the Self. im still trying to figure out what this verse means but there's something going on with den calling the world into question - by looking at it through an artistic lens, deconstructing everything. "the scariest it gets is far behind the world you know" is very fun coming from him in his relationship with honeycomb - den is part of this weird, magical, and sometimes scary world that others dont know about.

Can you sing along? / She was looking like a summer / Can’t you see the lines and dots? / And in turn, beget the sun within her

here we start to get a look at den and creation and the Self and his relationships with the space squad. specifically aria. the word sun is in there, i have to :p the idea of seeing the lines and dots - den's art - in order to create the sun within her - DEN IS A NEBULA AND ARIA IS A STAR! nebulas create stars! aria's identity exists without den of course hehe but there's this interesting thing going on where like... den uses his art to show people who they are in his mind. his painting of honeycomb is a prominent plot point - the way den uses his art to turn people into these bright and powerful symbols. and in terms of his friendship with aria, he definitely does something similar - helping her to see herself as a bright burning star, the way he does. helping her to create herself.

You think you know the mistress, well / You see me as I am, but... // Can you see me with the lights off? / The quale I brought to class? / Articulate the beauty of a flower held behind my back

and here we get into the complicated nature of identity - den is a deeper person than that loud energetic optimistic self he presents. its an authentic version of himself, but that light isn't all there is to him. den is optimistic but not entirely naive, energetic but not out of control - he is a force of creation to be reckoned with. idk quite how to describe any of this lol but if we're looking at the self as a creation, den is basically saying here "there's more to me than my surface". and of course turning the lights off here - den has light powers! he's in control of the lights! and so there's this question of. who is he when the lights are off? when he changes the colors? can you see him beyond the surface level paint?

I’m that doggie in the window of your church / Every Sunday, you could see me if your muzzle formed the words / Think absurdly in the evening, think concretely by the dawn / Think along the lines you recognize, but never dared to walk

den fursona when. also den comes from a conservative christian family and so there's something so fun here about him challenging the values and standards of that culture!! and that last line... there's a LOT to it but one thing worth mentioning is like... how much den plays with gender. he's technically cis but he's Cis+. he's fucking with gender and doing what he wants - he recognizes the lines and is walking with them and turning them into absurd concepts :3

ok, last verse before its the chorus again, so final new lyrics to analyze!

Can you sense the gold within a Friendship saved? / Can you lens the lurid lines belied inside On A Clear Day? / Can you grab the squalid square laid bare amongst a Desert Rain? Can you nab the stained stripes entwined a meek Untitled 8? I say!

so With My Tail To The World is about the artist agnes martin, and all of the lines here reference her works. this song actually made me consider making den's art more abstract, which i think works well with his character!! this is just. PERFECTLY how den views the world. all of these abstract art pieces that are easy to dismiss as being simplistic are reflections of the world!! this is questioning those same things about identity and the world and art - can you see the world in these paintings? can you see how i see the world? this verse is just... an anthem for den's view on art and the world and WAUGH I LOVE IT. also this verse is so fun to sing out loud lol. also fun fact Friendship by agnes martin is this giant grid of gold and just... i think its perfect for den's friendship with aria hehe

#den #cosmic harmony #space squad #this is not well written ghjk im bad at #describing why its a den song #it just is #it just vibes #lyric analysis

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narcoticwriter · 2 years

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The Wonderful Work That is 'Unfocused'

To my current understanding, there's little-to-no chance of the author seeing this, but on the chance they do, thanks for writing this!

This fanfiction surpassed all of my expectations, from the premise to the thorough character analysis to the speculative worldbuilding, and finally to the critical points in the work. I was genuinely not expecting to be floored on my ass from the sheer emotion and feeling I experienced at the hand of the words. It was refreshing! 'The Mortifying Ordeal of Being Unknown' indeed. Other folks call it the Hedgehog's Dilemma.

So in genuine thanks, have my two cents:

MUTUALS THERE BE MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THE FIC BELOW

So if you want it, here's the sauce.

Now, I wanna talk about a few of my favorite moments in the fic. There are tons of them, but these ones resonated with me the most:

Chapter Two - Won't Sucrose Consider Being the Chief Alchemist One Day?

This exchange between Sucrose and Albedo set up the unique premise of why Sucrose engages in the type of alchemy she does as well as the beginnings of a certain dynamic that could potentially change in Sucrose and Albedo's relationship.

Sucrose had just broken her glasses and accepted Albedo's help.

It is revealed that Sucrose would rather pursue her own goals in alchemy than become the Chief Alchemist and gives us her reason why (to create a perfect paradise as per her lore).

This is a much deeper look into her most secret wishes than I believe she had given anyone else (to live the fairy tale she dreamed).

Albedo is open, receptive, and supportive of this goal, a wonderful surprise to Sucrose.

In the midst of this conversation, we get this wonderful tidbit:

"But the thing that makes a fairy-tale is the idea behind it […] well, I guess you could call it a promise! A promise that you can always learn from your past mistakes, or that tomorrow will begin anew… or… something like that… I mean, of course, it’s all up for interpretation anyway… but… that’s how I like to interpret it."

Beautifully inspired quote, you guys. You don't understand how much I love this line of text.

It also does a great deal of foreshadowing for the later chapters.

"Miss Sucrose". That is all.

Chapter Eight - Albedo Grapples With Feels and Sucrose Grapples With Herself

These two chapters contained some of the more pivotal moments in the fic, as it deals with some important things within both respective characters.

Albedo is at the halfway point of catching feels and passing them off as them just becoming closer as coworkers. ("It's a normal interest for Sucrose, I swear.")

Kaeya and Venti, of course, do not buy that bullshit and poke for a little while.

Then the event that warranted the mature rating happened.

The conflicting hurt/comfort and the sheer disconcertion shone through in the choppy flow and the dotted and uneasy dialogue.

This line of text from the day after as Albedo was listening on a conversation he wasn't supposed to be privy to promptly caused to lose my shit and almost cry:

“I know. It wasn’t nice or romantic but… I don’t know how to feel. On one hand, it was disgusting and it made me feel awful afterwards. But on the other hand, I – well… no one has ever even said anything like that to me before and I know all kinds of girls who’ve had to face that kind of thing every day. So, when it happened to me, I felt sort of like I was… like I was someone who could be desirable.”

This is another peek into Sucrose's inner mind that he wasn't supposed to hear this time, but it tells us a great deal about her.

We also get a peak into how Albedo's mental process works when it comes to his emotions: "The fact that [Sucrose being comfortable with him] even mattered to him, was what disconcerted him the most."

Chapter Nine - Albedo Officially (& Rather Publicly) Loses His Goddamn Mind

In summary, Albedo forgot that Sucrose visited her parents during the weekend and, with the added context of the last chapter, goes into his controlled brand of panic mode.

I'm just gonna put some particularly memorable quotations because I can't do this enough justice myself.

"After half an hour of waiting and with Sucrose still not in the lab, Albedo’s sense of anticipation turned to one of concern."

“I just came from the lab,” said Albedo. “I came here because I was waiting for her.”

This whole paragraph's worth of intrusiveness and overthinking was brilliant.

"Albedo nodded, his mind was racing, wondering where exactly had Sucrose gone. It wasn’t like she was someone who left without notice, being his assistant, it was her duty to tell him when she was going to be away. Maybe it was different now it was the other way around, but though Albedo often took long sabbaths, Sucrose was always the one person who he told where he was going to go. He would have expected the same of her. Where could she have gone that she couldn’t tell Albedo about it?"

"I know you’re worried, Albedo, but most likely she just went somewhere and forgot to tell you."

And the rest of the chapter after that quote is an absolute riot.

Chapter 13 - Sincere Words and Genuine Compliments Take Sucrose Out

I was reeling along with everyone in the vicinity at this chapter because wow, you really wanted to make the point of words of affirmation as one of Albedo's love languages and I respect that.

I'm just going to leave this wonderful piece of affirmation and foreshadowing here.

“What you’ve just made might not seem like much to you, but it’s truly beautiful. Do you see the way the light seems to shine from the veins in these petals? The way it even smells different? It’s a remarkable piece of alchemy. It’s why I wanted you to demonstrate it. This is what it means to understand alchemy, and there's not a lot of people who would be able to think of half of the things you’ve come up with.”

"This Sucrose looked like she was trying not to let the smile show on her face, but in the end, she couldn’t help it." She feels good about herself, you guys. She's proud of herself. I'm crying.

Chapter 17 - The Magnum Opus

"This was the end goal of all alchemists, to create something equal to the desires of the soul, something that, when created, the transmutation was a reflection of the alchemists’ truest desires."

The entirety of the conversation and the closeness the two of them have in terms of this quote is beautiful and well-done.

"That’s right, thought Albedo. Her only goal as an alchemist is to create a space where her and her loved ones can remain, happily. Where her heart doesn’t have to be closed off to the hurt and the pain of losing someone close to her. This flower must have the potential to do something like that for her... I... will help her... if this is her heart’s desire, then I will see it come to fruition."

I could tack on pages upon pages of words to describe this scene to me. Seriously read this fic, please because it was powerful.

Chapter 19 - Albedo Fucks Up Big Time and Sucrose Relives Her Childhood Trauma

The chapter's right there, but I'll break it down further with some of what I was able to interpret:

Albedo loves Sucrose so much. I mean, he genuinely told the truth of his existence and pushed himself away from her out of love, however wrong it was, however much it would hurt him, and however much Sucrose would hate him for it.

“It’s unfair to let you go through this without understanding what’s going on. I had to tell you. If my desire for you is that strong that you would sleepwalk towards me and hold me without your knowledge, then I am to blame. I will sever this mentorship and you will never have to see me or speak to me again.”

Mans really didn't get that Sucrose had her own emotions, huh? But of course, he didn't at the time. Because of this.

“I… I am tethered to you Sucrose. Even if I left you – even if I wanted to, I would still hurt. You’ve changed me. Being around you… it’s like a transmutation… or a painting. Before all of this, I was an empty canvas. And now… I am your masterpiece.”

He did not comprehend that he was capable of change. This hits me particularly close. Excellent interpretation of character here.

I would also like to point out that Sucrose got angry.

This is extremely well-done because all of these feelings are out in the open now and she'd be damned if she didn't let Albedo know exactly how she felt.

"Albedo didn’t know how she could have so much clarity in her anger, Maybe it was from experience. Maybe that was how she felt when her friends left her. Did she feel like that when she met Albedo too? And she was right. Of course, she was right. How could she be anything but?"

"And because she knew that, it terrified him."

Take the award and leave, OP because you just took my scalp without flinching, huh?

This was rawer than a cow that has yet to be shipped off to a slaughterhouse and I commend it.

And he immediately burdens himself with the feeling of deserving her eternal hatred. Masterful work.

Honorary Mentions - I Loved These Moments to Death, But Cannot Do The Words to Justify Them

The entirety of Klee's troubles concerning solitary confinement and the lengths Sucrose and Albedo go to lessen them.

Sucrose unintentionally brings Albedo home to her parents Marigold and Sage.

Klee kicking Albedo's shin and wanting to blow him to smithereens

Speculative Rhinedottir/Albedo lore.

Every time Sucrose and Albedo accidentally touched.

"Qiqi won't remember a thing."

Every time Lisa hints at anything remotely related to Sucrose and Albedo.

The eternally confusing state of the textbook definition of a homunculus versus the first-hand experiences and observations of a homunculus and every time it fucked Albedo up.

"He wondered if those feelings were like making a mistake with a stroke of a paintbrush on a canvas. The more he tried to remove it, the more it would smudge. The bigger it would grow."

This progression took two weeks.

“Just... a word of advice... don’t try to distance yourself from her, alright. She doesn’t need that happening again.”

The emotionally incompetent yaksha giving the emotionally confused homunculus a pep talk.

A side note: Sucrose's bitch-ass ex-friends acting like they couldn't bother to contact her despite keeping in contact with each other for all these years and them just laughing it off like it was nothing was a slap to the face for me. I was about to read into the HTML and clock them. Excellent fucking job.

And now, without further ado, my favorite chapter in the entire fanfiction.

Chapter 22 - A Heartfelt Apology More Emotionally Gratifying Than Some Ragbros Reconciliation Fanfiction

No hate, no hate, no hate on the Ragbros enthusiasts as I am one of you, but this chapter threw my emotions into a washing machine with the spin setting on max.

Sucrose went to talk to Albedo herself. This is the first time she prompted herself to do anything like this on her own. Character growth, we love to see it.

He apologized. Multiple times. And he tells it like it is finally.

“I love you. I didn’t know what I was supposed to do with those feelings before. But I understand now. I understand you, Sucrose. I understand you.”

The excerpt below is standing on its own because it needs to.

“I know you love me. That’s why you left. That’s why you avoided me. You didn’t want to figure anything out. It was only until Xiao came to talk to you that you managed to figure out anything for yourself, right? You didn’t listen to me when I wanted you to stay, but you listened to Xiao? You don’t even know him, yet his words carried more than mine?”

“I should have. I should have listened to you. I should have listened to myself, from the very beginning. I shouldn’t have thought these feelings were wrong. Or they were bad. How can love be bad? But how could I have known that wanting you, needing you, when... when you were all I could think about, that that was natural, that I couldn’t get my thoughts – for a single second – to stop revolving about you? There are even humans out there who don’t feel like that, even around the people they love. I’m a homunculus, we’re not supposed to love. But I do and I love only you. You’ve changed me, Sucrose. My heart – it’s like I can feel it beating when I’m around you. You’ve turned me into someone capable of this. And... I was wrong to abandon you like that. I was wrong to let you leave. I regretted it since that very moment, and I’ll regret for the days to come, whether you accept me or not.”

“I... I knew that you loved me. I could see it ever since that day we went searching for Cryo flowers. When you helped me into the carriage that day, when you hurt yourself on your sword. You seemed different, more nervous. Less... yourself. And I know that was when things all started changing for you. You couldn’t hide it at all, Mister Albedo. But... I was experiencing the same things too. I felt different around you. I woke up from dreams about you, Mister Albedo. I had to go to the lab everyday pretending like nothing was different because... you’re not the only one who is new to these feelings. The way I felt – the way I feel about you... the intensity, it was more than just love. It was an understanding, where you could see me and I could see you. I – I... I don’t know how you could have left so easily. No matter how far you went, you wouldn’t have been able to end it. And I... I didn’t want to wake up one day and see that you’re gone. I didn’t want you to leave me. And then you did. You left me.”

“I won’t leave you again. I won’t."

And people seriously wanna complain that the Genshin Impact fanfiction community only consists of textfics and smut when this exists. How disappointing and utterly shallow of them.

I was moved and profoundly so, but then it got better!

Because maybe the real magnum opus was the one they made together all along.

And as such, the dynamic of focus finally shifts back into place, hence my realization of the name of this fic.

There you go.

You single-handedly managed to convert me from a casual Alberose fan to a hardcore Alberose enjoyer in less than 24 hours.

Take it. Take my weave. My scalp. My whole heart. My emotional validation.

It's all yours.

Hats off to you, and thanks for taking all 92,824 words and composing them into this beautiful story. If you release another fic in the near future, don't be surprised to see me in the comments.

Until the next time, I suppose!

#narky thinks #narky screams into the void #genshin fic #i don't ship fanon alberose i ship THIS alberose

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fermented-writers-block · 3 years

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PART 1 of 6 of the Owl Deity Hooty Theory

[NEXT PART]

[OWL DEITY HOOTY THEORY MASTERPOST] (in development)

(TLDR at bottom of post)

Over several long months of research and analysis since March of 2020, I have been following an utterly fascinating thread of potential misdirection and subtle details throughout The Owl House, and today, I would like to start weaving together of what I believe could become one of the biggest and most cleverly disguised twists in the entire show.

To begin, let’s take a look at the B plot of Understanding Willow:

On first glance, it’s an ultimately inconsequential sidestory with the sole purpose of justifying an excuse to keep Luz and Amity in Willow’s mind, as well as providing some well-needed room to breathe and release tension after the veryemotionally charged confrontation with Inner Willow. After half an episode of Eda and King outdoing the other in ridiculous ways to win Gus’ vote and Gus running off in frustration at the end of the episode from Hooty’s inane rambling, it’s easy to laugh off Gus’ pick and assume that nothing/of value was said when he closed the door for the interview.

However, if one pays close attention to that very scene, Hooty actually canstill be heard (if faintly) underneath Eda and King’s grumbling, interestingly talking about how “It all started with a hunt. Blood red skies. That’s right, I was created-.”

Now, while it may seem silly to focus on dialogue from Hooty of all characters, this A) tells us that there was an event in the past involving blood red skies and a hunt of some kind, B) that Hooty had been created close to said event, and C) implies that what he knows but can’t tell as a story worth a damn is EXTREMELY important to be included and be hidden in such a manner.

For comparison, the only other instance of dialogue being tucked away in the background in the entire show is in Wing It Like Witches:

During the lecture at the beginning of the episode, the history teacher openswith lore on Belos appointing a head witch to each coven over 50 years ago, immediately cluing in the audience to try and decipher the rest of the lecture as it moves to the background. Adding to this is how the musical sting when Luz shows off her movie obscures what he says even further, making it even more of a intriguing puzzle that the creators clearly intended for viewers to pick up on and attempt to solve.

In contrast, the hidden dialogue of Hooty’s interview is much shorter and not as hard to decipher as the teacher’s history lesson, but at the same time, there are few to no indicators whatsoever in that scene to clue in the audience to even check for something like that. It comes at the end of an episode where most viewers would have been paradoxically tired out and driven abuzz by the revelations of Amity and Willow’s relationship, doesn’t attempt to draw much attention to itself, and frames itself as a comedic subversion of audience expectations with neither the “greatest witch who ever lived” or the self-proclaimed king of demons being picked by Gus.

Instead, he picks someone that the show portrays constantly as an oblivious and gullible idiot after being described as a “state of the art defense system” at the very beginning of the series. Someone who, despite it being played for laughs, is scarily capable of casually subduing Lilith offscreen one episode and then beating her and an entire squad of Emperor’s Coven members without even the slightest change in personality or temperament.

Someone who, due to being the Owl House itself, could be considered the titular character of the entire show, yet is taken for granted by those who inhabit him and barely gets any respect from even the cutely patronized King - including when Hooty could be interpreted as having potentially been full on DEAD for a time given the use of extremely cartoony X eyes and a lack of vital signs in The Intruder.

And someone who Eda at best tolerates and at worst abandons in personal interactions and only occasionally acknowledges him when he’s actually doing his job. Yet at the same time is so implicitly trusted beyondprotecting her home to the point where - when up against the closest person Eda has to an equal outside of likely Belos - the only actually recognizable spells Eda used in combat were 1) stereotypical energy blasts, 2) a single shield spell in Covention, and 3) a noticeably large reliance on imitations of Hooty above any other spells she could have decided to use instead.

In short, the show repeatedly tells us he is just an idiotic gag character through and through, but at the same time demonstrates he has immense power through both onscreen and offscreen demonstrations, implicitly tells us his importance ahead of time through Eda’s imitations in actually serious situations, and treats his interview and origin story as - if not even more- important to keep secret than a long lore dump about how Belos’ reign works.

After all, there being only two instances of hidden background dialogue in the entire season is already intriguing on its own, but for one to get plenty of clues to draw in people’s attention and for the other to be treated as just another gag about a “mere comic relief character” - aka a good way to draw away attention and lower one’s guard - heavily suggests a far deeper significance buried under layers of misdirection, comedy, and conditioned audience expectations.

I mean, when Eda bragged about being “a bad girl living in a secret fortress,” Hooty followed with a remark about how “I’m the secret.” While that line may sound like Hooty simply being confused as part of a one-off on the surface, it’s an odd dialogue choice for the writers to pick when you think about all the other reminders of his nature as the house itself throughout the season. With the precedent these moments set, it would have been much more appropriate for him to latch onto the “fortress” side of “secret fortress” AND it would have been just as equally funny of a joke about his awareness skills, but instead, Hooty broke away from the established trend to say something that would make people suspicious were it to come from anyone else.

In a way, this reminds me much of the many subtle bits of foreshadowing strewn across the show, like Luz unknowingly describing Amity in Witches Before Wizards and Eda burning a hole through Luz’s coven type quiz that coincidentally selected the same track she had taken at Hexside as “a punky potionist.” At the time of airing, these initially seemed like one-off jokes, but eventually came back in full force several episodes later with Amity’s hidden sensitive feelings and love for the Azura books becoming clear in Lost in Language, and the reveal of Eda’s school track in Something Ventured, Someone Framed with her school misdemeanor pictures.

That said, compared to these individual bits of minor foreshadowing, the jokes about Hooty in Understanding Willow appear to simply be the most obvious pieces in a giant puzzle, implicitly and outright telling attentive viewers that there’s a major mystery to be uncovered here.

In fact, I feel bold enough to say that we could be looking at a twist on a similar scale to that of the Pink Diamond/Rose Quartz and Stanford Pines twists in Steven Universe and Gravity Falls respectively, what with this particular puzzle piece coming from how Gus wanted to make THE greatest interview of all time, and how he was looking for someone who was “interesting, accomplished, AND noteworthy:”

Note the emphasis on the ‘and’ here, as Gus had made a big deal that “people aren’t meantto be all those things” at the beginning of the episode, so as a result, stripping away all the comedic framing of his subplot leaves the intriguing implication that whoever - and, perhaps, what- Hooty is, they really are the most interesting, accomplished, AND noteworthy person out of everyone.

I could go further and talk about why I suspect the mystery surrounding King’s origins, whether true or not, is partially meant to misdirect us from paying attention to Hooty, or how the TOH crew’s could be disguising legitimate clues to his nature among made up and highly meme-able joke answers in order to proliferate said concepts throughout the fandom - thus letting us do all the dirty work of getting ourselves used to the ideas and used to dismissing them at the same time - but to bring things to a close for now, I’d like to leave you all with a question that I’ll start answering next time:

What does it mean when both the most powerful and notorious witch on the Boiling Isles and the possible actual king of demons/the Titan itself/something don’t match up to a house? And what do you think it is that makes him so special to warrant such misdirection?

TLDR: Between Eda’s golem spells, the show stressing his nature as the titular house, his implicit strength, and the odd dialogue and structure of Understanding Willow‘s subplot in relation to him, I believe I have good reason to suspect the show has been giving us many hints towards Hooty being much, much more important than it would like us to currently believe or even joke about. Particularly, through clever uses of comedy to establish and enforce a strong audience bias against looking closely at him or unironically taking him seriously, and to potentially plant the seeds for something I will start exploring in Part 2.

#the owl house #the owl house theory #owl house theory #the owl house speculation #toh theory #the owl house hooty #toh speculation #owl deity hooty theory #long post

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almighty-jinki · 2 years

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Okay! Now that I’ve seen the DICE MV at least ten times now, it’s time for the analysis absolutely nobody asked for because my focus in school was Aesthetics and I love analyzing art! Here we go!

So, first of all I want to thank Jinki for pointing out in his Insta live the similarities between the DICE and MTTM MVs, that’s done some of my work for me and it’s super cool to know that those similarities were intentional! Obviously there’s the similarities between the strange radioactive-looking drinks (though I’m not going to say it’s EXACTLY the same beverage, the one from DICE appears a bit more green and slime-like, while in MTTM it was more blue and liquid-y. BUT, very cool!); as well as both MVs having a surreal, dream-like quality with slight horror elements.

I think where the tone diverges though is that in MTTM, SHINee is in on the conceit of the video. They’re in the middle of it all as active participants, interacting with the other people in the video and taking part in everything that’s going on around them. In DICE, Jinki stumbles through the hotel as a bewildered observer that has come in off the street - presumably from a normal world where the things happening in the hotel aren’t everyday occurrences. He’s searching for Lemon Lady (a name that I find really adorable and think is very cute that all of Shawol has just accepted as the character’s name), yes; but he isn’t actively participating in the weird things going on around him. They’re more like obstacles in his search for her than things happening to him. Whereas in MTTM the members are consuming the drink, DICE!Jinki never touches it at all.

Of course the point of surrealist art is that you aren’t really supposed to be able to analyze it for deeper meaning, it’s just supposed to make you go, “ah! So weird! Strange! This is mildly unsettling but very cool to look at!” But one of my first peer-reviewed journal pieces was an analysis of a Salvador Dali film, so I’m gonna analyze it for meaning anyway: because the cool thing about art is that you can find personal meaning in pretty much anything if you want to c: (Emphasis on personal meaning, if anyone else interpreted it differently please leave it in the notes or replies because I’d love it talk about it!)

So! In the opening shot, Jinki is big vibin’ out on the street in front of the hotel, just absolutely chomping on a slice of cake with his bare hands (king behavior, to be sure). He’s in a bathrobe and slippers; and even though he somehow manages to make them look like extremely fashionable streetwear, this communicates that his character is a laid-back, comfortable person with a penchant for indulging himself in the sweeter side of life. Him eating very messily with his hands, frosting smeared on his face, shows that he dives right in to these indulgences with a lot of enthusiasm; not really concerned with the mess it will make but enjoying it to the fullest in the moment.

He’s holding in his other hand a six-sided die with the numbers 5 and 6 facing outward, in what I can only assume is a very sweet nod to SHINee and Shawol (as he’s recently stated he picked 6 tracks for the album because of the 6 sides of a die, and SHINee 5 + Shawol = 6).

Then Lemon Lady (mybeloved) enters the picture, seen through a window with her hand pressed to the glass, reaching for the outside world and Jinki himself. He’s immediately smitten (and honestly his facial acting in this part and throughout the entire MV is so expressive, Lee Jinki acting KING). In the first shot, she is alone; but then one of the hotel denizens quickly comes to take her away. Jinki is confused, then clenches his fist around the dice and drops the slice of cake to the pavement. Staying true to the nature of his character and the theme of DICE, he forgets all about what he was originally doing when faced with the sweetness of this new love, and jumps headfirst into the new and strange world of the hotel without a second thought. He demonstrates his willingness to roll the metaphorical (and in this case physical) dice and take this chance with absolutely no hesitation.

Upon entering the hotel, he’s noticed by the staff but isn’t stopped as he runs down the hall to get to the pool. He doesn’t even really react to their strangeness in his haste to find Lemon Lady, acting with very single-minded intent. When he gets to the pool and sees the dummy in the water he looks relieved that the doll is a fake, presumably because it means the real Lemon Lady is alright. Then he grows very serious, staring into the pool and seems to come to the decision that he really will go all in on this new love. Jinki said (I believe in the press conference) that the die in the video is magical, with the power to transform. To me, this reads as: when he tosses the dice and both his outfit and the scene changes, he’s taking the chance and changing/discovering an aspect of himself in order to be better equipped to dive further into this love.

Bringing me to the point that the hotel itself symbolizes the early stages of falling in love, and discovering more about yourself in the process. Each time Jinki throws the dice up, he’s transformed into an aspect of himself that will allow him deeper access into the hotel. First, the very princely blue suit in the ballroom, which is full of hotel residents dressed similarly. He moves differently to how he did when he first came onto the hotel. No longer careening frantically down the halls with single-minded determination; he moves more cautiously, hands clasped politely but nervously in front of him, searching the ballroom guests for Lemon Lady but not finding her. He’s past the stage of love where he’s decided to jump headlong into it, and now he has to be more careful and measured in his approach.

He checks the kitchen and the staff all turn to stare at him as they cut into lemons, which begin to - concerningly - bleed. This comes across as symbolism of a ‘bleeding heart.’ More specifically, Lemon Lady’s heart. In the ballroom, we saw the hotel residents eating nothing but lemons. She’s giving away parts of herself to sustain others, which is solidified later on when the acidic drink we saw being extracted from the lemons is served at a party for hotel residents. This is why I think it’s important that we never see Jinki himself consuming either the lemons or the drink in the entire MV. He isn’t asking her to sustain him, or to give up parts of herself to him. He’s simply looking to meet her where she is.

As the bellhop, he’s allowed even further access into the hotel, with it’s residents not seeming to notice him much. He’s smiling as he wheels the baggage cart down the hallway. He’s gotten more comfortable in the love he feels, started to relax a bit. At the end of the hall, he sees a bride and groom in red cutting a wedding cake with a chainsaw and looks on as if stunned, then is immediately confronted with a host of chainsaw-wielding hotel residents which chase him back down the hall as the lighting changes. Though he allowed himself to relax into the new feeling of love for a moment; when confronted with the jarring and contrary imagery of a wedding cake (weddings being a symbol of happy, pure, and true love) being cut so violently, he has the sudden realization that this love that he dived into so abruptly could end very badly. He initially runs away from the manifestation of that realization, but still doesn’t give up on finding Lemon Lady.

The last time he throws up the die, it changes him into the outfit from the choreography, in which he’s dancing with residents of the hotel. This is the only time we see him actively participating with them, instead of avoiding them. He’s accepted all the obstacles this new love of his may face, and the lyrics reflect that “the game was already planned//I never had a chance//as you already know.” Instead of avoiding the helpless feeling of love, he accepts it and places all of the potential of the relationship into Lemon Lady’s hands; and we see her face down the residents of the hotel which have been using her to sustain themselves, taking a stand in order to be free of them and finally meet Jinki as her own person. A hotel resident’s hand trembles as it holds another die but doesn’t throw it, unable to take the chance of loving her as Jinki has multiple times, rather than just using her. Unable to potentially risk themselves to keep her in the hotel.

This takes us into the bridge, where Jinki enters the room and finds a broken heel on the table. The lyrics in this part are notable, “You’re going away as if you’re close//set me on fire, then disappear//the game goes on and on//only you can end this game.” He’s so close to finding her, but if feels as though she’s pulling away. She’s sparked a powerful love (a fire) in him and he’s in too deep to back out of it, but his uncertainty from before has returned because he cannot tell what she’s thinking.

It’s reminiscent of the moments before a confession or a proposal; when there is no going back, but you’re about to put your entire heart into someone else’s hands and you begin to doubt that it will go well. Or when your partner is dealing with something in their mind and they just aren’t ready to talk to you about it, so you simply have to wait and hope that everything is okay. Lemon Lady is separating herself from the people who have been taking advantage of her, but Jinki doesn’t know this; so all he can do is reflect on everything that got him to this point - as the MV cycles through all his different transformations - and decide to keep going.

He takes her heel with him. A part of her that he intends to return instead of use, even though it’s broken. He’s knocked to the ground as the elevator doors open, the die that he’s kept in his hand the entire time falling to the ground as Lemon Lady steps out of the elevator with her own die in her hand. She drops the heel that’s not broken, going barefoot in a symbol of her newfound freedom. Jinki stares up at her in shock and awe (and honestly, mood), having finally found her and finding that she, too, has been changed by love. Whereas earlier in the MV her expression was blank, longing, now she’s taken agency over her own situation and smiles warmly down at him. She leans down to take his hand, meeting in the middle and lifting him up; and he snatches his own die off the floor as she leads him back through the hotel. They both finally leave the hotel and look over at each other, grinning; and the die is thrown one final time as they decide to take a chance on their love, together.

Like I said, the point of surrealism isn’t to be analyzed, so anyone who reads this and says, “it really isn’t that deep” is completely valid. The MV is fun and colorful and aesthetically stunning even without any deeper meaning behind it; but this kind of thing is what I studied for and really enjoyable to me, and I thought that if any surrealist piece of art deserves to be looked at a bit deeper, it’s something that Jinki worked so hard on and put his heart and soul into. Let me know if you agree, or disagree with anything I said! Or if you want to talk about what you interpreted the story of the MV as, or just want to talk about what you particularly like about it! I’m super excited for this comeback and I would love to talk about it more in depth c:

If you made it to the end, thank you so much for reading! Let’s all give Jinki lots of love and support in this new chapter, and let’s all be happy and healthy together!~

#SHINee #ONEW DICE #Onew #Lee jinki #MV analysis #video analysis #art analysis #DICE MV #DICE

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ruby-whistler · 3 years

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There are three types of misinterpretation of c!Dream in my opinion; and by that I mean anyone's take ever, whether it's a c!Dream anti or a c!Dream apologist or a c!Dream enthusiast. That's right, I'm making an essay about how in my mind everyone is wrong. This is how I lead debates please don't unfollow me-

1. misunderstanding or overdramatizing evidence

c!Dream apologists; g-guys. I'm not saying he isn't traumatized, but look. I really used to believe he was just everyone's victim and hurt and mentally unstable, and I'm not saying he isn't at all, but I changed my mind because I feel like the evidence doesn't,, point that way at all. Your emotions are valid, but your takes are very removed from what the rest of the fandom thinks because you take little hints and try to make them into some big angsty point within canon.

The evidence we have proves he is more ruthless than anything; even the content creator says that. He doesn't say why he does progressively more ruthless things, and he does say it's for his ideals and out of good intentions, but he doesn't say anything about him being hurt into doing it.

I'm not saying he isn't hurt. But making analysis of an entire character based on something that is barely supported by canon isn't the way I roll and I feel like it's one of the reason why people assume all c!Dream apologist are going to woobify the character,, because some of them really do that.

I don't mind portraying him as hurt by what's happened in canon, because that is a completely safe conclusion, but jumping to the victim side of the scale seems a little bit like painting a completely different picture than what actual canon says. (Note: talking about pre-Pandora c!Dream here.)

There is tragedy in someone being driven by the environment, circumstances and themselves deeper and deeper into corruption, but it feels like by only considering that the entire character is limited to one side of the argument.

I like to also see the side of him that will hurt people because he thinks he has to, because he wants to succeed above all, the side that will ruthlessly murder and manipulate and be calculative and clever and even self-destructive about it because he believes that'll get him towards his ultimately selfless goal.

That's my morally complex bastard.

A lot of people seem to be mistaking or ignoring that for the sake of saying he is just... hurt and that that is an explanation of his actions, and even though they don't use it as an excuse, it feels a little cheap.

And here we come to the core of the problem: an emotional vs. rational explanation for the character's actions.

Because the thing is, with enough evidence, you will see that nearly (we'll get to that in a bit) everything he does can be explained rationally. Everything is connected, everything is the most logical and efficient and merciless route straight from point A to point B, because c!Dream is fascinatingly smart when you look deeper into it.

He knows what he's doing. He knows his actions are awful, and he doesn't care - not because he would be some evil person, but because his mindsets cause him to justify such things, and mindsets are more complicated than feelings.

There is a lot to explore in that direction of the character, but that is material for another essay.

In short, people seem to enjoy removing all of his agency in favor of explaining his actions emotionally rather than from a rational standpoint which results in inaccurate analysis.

Do I think it is completely understandable he attacked L'Manberg?

Absolutely.

Do I think c!Wilbur painted him as a villain to benefit his own power?

Yes.

Do I think he utilized the villain persona as an intimidation tactic and often went overkill with no regard for anything but accomplishing his goals and that he slowly became more and more willing to do bad things of his own accord because he became determined and distrusting of the world to the point of committing horrible actions?

100%.

Analysing that part of the character is the most interesting part, when you consider it - and an important one as well.

2. ignoring evidence

c!Dream antis; please. Stop saying he doesn't care or explaining his actions with obsession or assigning him personality traits or motives that he literally doesn't have in order to demonize him I beg of you.

It's so many basic and easily debunkable assumptions that can be explained with what we actually know of his motives. People will ignore both canon and the authors' words to paint him as some monster with no nuance, which he is not.

We only know so much about him, but people will ignore and deny even the little bit we have for the sake of making him the literal personification of evil and erasing the fact that he is a complex and human character. Just accept he can be accurately analysed beyond hate and let people do it if you don't want to do so yourself.

3. assuming the evidence we have is everything you need to determine a final approach and that nothing outside of the presented evidence exists when certain details prove otherwise

c!Dream enthusiasts; this was the only and biggest problem I've had since being introduced to much more rational interpretations of the character - which is emotions, and one of the biggest reasons why c!Dream gets dehumanized in the first place; the fact that we have little to no showcase or explanation of them in canon.

You see, c!Dream is a reserved character. He likes withholding his plans, withholding his feelings and information from the world.

However, since all we can really get out of watching his actions alone is the rational side (and that is deliberate by both the writer and the character, narratively and personality-wise) people slowly begin to assume there is no emotional side to his actions at all.

Which I find,, untrue. Between the people who erase the rational side of the character and those who erase the emotional side, there is little middle ground, but I don't really find either of them right either.

Because neither would be an accurate representation; just because he doesn't actively showcase his feelings doesn't mean he doesn't have them, and the few inconsistencies that are too small a detail for us to put everything together show that he does have an inner emotional world beyond what we see.

The character does work beyond what we know, and expecting that everything can be explained purely by rationality because that's all we see of him seems a little bit jumping the gun.

It leads to a less person-like view of a character who in reality simply doesn't like showing people the way he feels, and I don't really find that fair to him. It is best to accept there are things we can't say for sure, or to say an emotional interpretation can also be valid at times.

It is both important not to deny him agency and not to deny him the ability to be genuinely hurt by others or changed by his environment.

Both of these can coexist, especially in

the correct interpretation

Ok this is a joke.

I have literally no idea. I'm just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks - he confuses me beyond belief. The only person who knows about both the emotional and rational side of the character enough to have their interpretation unquestioned is cc!Dream - but when we do try to find answers, it is important for us as well that we do not ignore any aspects or possible aspects of the character, because that is the only way to get useful results out of our analysis.

Sorry this was crit of basically every take about the character I have ever seen but I needed to get my thoughts out.

#dream smp #c!dream #ask to tag as crit #long post #idk i'm big on the c!dream pos #but woobification & dehumanization & demonization are #all equally a problem in the fandom #with the character

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firelxdykatara · 3 years

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gods, ok, apparently i’m not done.

atla fandom? we need to have a chat.

(....ok that made me sound pretentious as fuck. and maybe i am, but this needs to be said, cause i’m getting....real, real tired of a Certain Corner of this fandom and as a result, this is gonna be a discourse-heavy post so feel free to scroll past if that’s not your bag. as always, my salt posts all carry the catch-all #salt for ts tag, which you’re free to blacklist/filter at your leisure. i’m Very Annoyed at the moment, which will probably come through in the following post, so just. yknow. be prepared for that. or ignore it, that’s perfectly valid too.)

under a cut bc i do care for my followers and their sanity i swear lmao

there’s a real serious issue in this fandom with not understanding what queer terminology actually means or implies, especially when applied to a fictional narrative.

i’m specifically talking about ‘coding’, here. (if i were in a more meme-y mood, i might have said ‘the atla fandom found out about the term “gay-coding” and haven’t shut up since’.)

to the people who say ‘zuko is gay-coded’, i have this to say: you keep using that word. i do not think it means what you think it means. because he isn’t. i’m sorry, but he’s not! and the fact that this is such a prevalent claim in this fandom is distressing, bc it says to me that none of y’all know what gay-coding is or when and how to apply it! please, i’m begging you, go and look up these terms and what they mean and when they should be used before actually trying to plug them into your critical analysis, because when you misuse them and then call other people delusional for disagreeing with you it casts a pall over the entire fandom and is, i think, the root of some of the worst toxicity this fandom has to offer.

and the thing is, there are cases where gay-coding would apply--for instance, a couple series that are famous for queerbaiting their audience by coding their main characters as being attracted to one another (sometimes even despite their openly stated sexualities) come to mind, but those shows bare no similarities at all to atla and how zuko was written and portrayed! (and it would be funny, if it weren’t so obnoxious and infuriatingly wide-spread throughout the fandom, because the only queer couple we actually seen on-screen in either show wasn’t even queer-coded in any respect, and they’re canonically bi! [yes, i’m shading korrasami, or more accurately i’m shading bryke for refusing to give ka the build-up and development they deserved].)

this absolutely isn’t to say that headcanoning zuko as gay is a bad thing or invalid in any respect. (although the tendency for zukka shippers to do this specifically to keep zuko away from katara and/or invalidate his canon relationship/attraction to girls is more than a little eyebrow raising. especially since sokka is usually allowed to be bi, bc fans have no problem letting sukka stay in the background bc it’s no real threat, while jetko shippers are happy to have both boys be bi. [possibly bc katara is less a threat to jetko bc jetkotara is every bit as valid as any single ship between the three, but zukka can’t exactly let katara join in, and if the potential exists for zuko to be attracted to her then canon giving them the far deeper emotional bond becomes a threat to zukka’s existence? idk for sure--you be the judge.]) i prefer to hc zuko as bi (and always have, long before the atla renaissance), bc i don’t think zuko being attracted to boys is outside the realm of possibility, and it isn’t a threat to my ship since zuko&katara had a deep and emotional bond in canon that is very easy to develop further into something that becomes explicitly romantic--but the headcanon itself isn’t really the problem (although what it’s often in service to can be).

it’s the strange insistence that this is the only way to read his character, bc he was coded that way and so anyone who doesn’t see it must be too straight to understand--and i really shouldn’t have to say why and how that is so incredibly fucking insulting. (the ‘hetero lenses’ comment wasn’t cute when it came from bryke six years ago, and the same sentiment being repackaged and delivered by zukka shippers ain’t cute now.)

calling zuko gay-coded not only demonstrates ignorance as to what the term actually means, and how to usefully apply it in critical analysis, but also validates the frankly bullshit insertion of institutionalized homophobia in the world of atla where it was neither needed, nor wanted, nor ever hinted at in canon. as a queer woman i’m still infuriated by one fucking comic panel shoving institutionalized and systemic homophobia into a world where it was entirely unnecessary (and doing this in the first installment of the franchise showcasing a queer relationship??? making korra and asami worried about ‘coming out’ when they could have just gone on to have cute adventures together and tell people ‘hey we’re dating’ and have everyone else be ‘that’s awesome =DDD’ [because it is, in fact, possible to just have a world without homophobia i promise!!!!!] double yikes, i’m still pissed at bryke about it), and i doubly hate that ‘zuko is gay coded’ has become so widespread that ‘ozai hates him bc he’s gay’ has become a staple in that part of the fandom.

not only does making zuko gay and implying (or outright stating) that ozai hated and abused him because of it completely undermine zuko’s character arc by making his abuse about his sexuality rather than ozai’s toxic pride and anger at seeing himself reflected in his ‘weak’ son, but it comes very close to outright stating that abuse and trauma are inherently gay experiences, and they aren’t!!! they really aren’t, i promise!!!

abuse and trauma narratives exist outside of ‘my dad hates me because i’m gay’. and, quite frankly, there are MORE THAN ENOUGH queer trauma narratives out in the world. we do not need to start trying to retroactively make them canon in a series where they didn’t exist! if you’re gay and see yourself in zuko and project your own experiences on him, that’s understandable and valid. that does not make zuko gay-coded. and honestly, the insistence that he is makes very little sense to me, because you’re essentially trying to give the show credit for work you put into interpreting the characters! why would you want to do that? why not own your own headcanons and take credit for them, rather than insisting they are canon and everyone else is wrong for not seeing them??? like, i’ve said before that i’ve always headcanoned zuko (and katara) as bi, and even support it with my interpretations of evidence from the show, but the difference between ‘i think zuko is bi’ and ‘zuko is definitely gay-coded’ is that i know that bi zuko is my interpretation of canon, and that it is work i’m putting into the show that wasn’t actually intended by the creators/writers, no matter how much sexual tension i read into the jetko swordfight.

and like, zuko’s character arc doesn’t actually parallel a queer one all that well to begin with. it’s easy enough to do the work and twist it sideways just enough to make the general points fit, but the fact is, zuko’s arc is not one of self-discovery. it’s not one of coming to understand something fundamental about himself that he can’t change, that he was hated for, and coming out to his father in a dramatic confrontation where he shows that he understands himself and doesn’t need his father’s acceptance to be fulfilled.

zuko’s arc is actually one of trauma and healing. and those can (and often are--like i said, there are more than enough queer trauma narratives in the world, atla really doesn’t need to be one of them) be part of queer narratives, for sure! but they aren’t uniquely queer. and zuko’s confrontation with ozai during the eclipse doesn’t read like a ‘coming out’ at all. (yes, i’ve seen that post. yes, i rolled my eyes and moved on, bc unlike some people, i’m capable of not clowning on correctly tagged posts i disagree with.) zuko is specifically confronting ozai over his abuse, because his arc wasn’t about discovering anything fundamental about himself (and therefore realizing that ozai was hating him for something he couldn’t change)--it was about realizing that he was not at fault for the way his father treated him. it was also about realizing that the fire nation was broken and corrupt at its core, and that his father was an aspect of that he needed to break away from so that he could help the world begin to heal.

he says it himself:

Zuko: No, I've learned everything! And I've had to learn it on my own! Growing up, we were taught that the Fire Nation was the greatest civilization in history. And somehow, the War was our way of sharing our greatness with the rest of the world. What an amazing lie that was. The people of the world are terrified by the Fire Nation. They don't see our greatness. They hate us! And we deserve it! We've created an era of fear in the world. And if we don't want the world to destroy itself, we need to replace it with an era of peace and kindness.

making this about zuko being gay and rejecting ozai’s homophobia, rather than zuko learning fundamental truths about the world and about his home and about how there was something deeply wrong with his nation that needed to be fixed in order for the world to heal (and, no, ‘homophobia’ is not the answer to ‘what is wrong with the fire nation’, i’m still fucking pissed at bryke about that), misses the entire point of his character arc. this is the culmination of zuko realizing that he should never have had to earn his father’s love, because that should have been unconditional from the start. this is zuko realizing that he was not at fault for his father’s abuse--that speaking out of turn in a war meeting in no way justified fighting a duel with a child.

is that first realization (that a parent’s love should be unconditional, and if it isn’t, then that is the parent’s fault and not the child’s) something that queer kids in homophobic households/families can relate to? of course it is. but it’s also something that every other abused kid, straight kids and even queer kids who were abused for other reasons before they even knew they were anything other than cishet, can relate to as well. in that respect, it is not a uniquely queer experience, nor is it a uniquely queer story, and zuko not being attracted to girls (which is what a lot of it seems to boil down to, at the end of the day--cutting down zuko’s potential ships so that only zukka and a few far more niche ships are left standing) is not necessary to his character arc. nor does it particularly make sense.

(and before anyone brings up his date with jin--a) he enjoyed it when she kissed him, and b) he was a traumatized, abused child going out on a first date. of course he was fucking awkward. have you ever met a teenage boy????)

anyway, uh, that was a lot of words, so have a tl;dr: zuko is not gay-coded. there is nothing uniquely gay (or even uniquely queer) about his character arc or characterization, and he was certainly not coded gay in an attempt to sneak a queer character past the censors. if anyone involved with atla was gonna try that, it would’ve been in lok, and as established, they didn’t even manage to queer-code the actual queer relationship before the last few minutes of the final episode. headcanoning zuko as gay is absolutely fine (though if it’s only done to keep him away from female characters he may otherwise be attracted to, that smells more like misogyny than anything else), but insisting that this reading is the only one that makes sense, and anyone who doesn’t agree must be straight (hello, queer woman here making this insanely long thinkpiece) is very much not.

ship what you like, but stop trying to invalidate other ships and other interpretations of characters just to make your ship seem more plausible. it’s really not a good look.

#atla #zuko #zukka salt #more like zukka shipper salt #atla fandom salt #salt for ts #zuko is not gay coded and im so so tired of seeing that argument in this fandom #it's fine as a hc but it's not canon and was never remotely intended and his arc isn't particularly evocative of a gay narrative #long post #queer things

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girl4music · 3 years

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BUFFY REWATCH - S04E22 - Restless

Tara: “I think it’s strange. I mean, I think I should worry that we haven’t found her name.”

Willow: “Who, Miss Kitty?”

*shot of their kitten, playing with a ball of red yarn in slow-motion*

Tara: “You’d think she’d let us know her name by now.”

Willow: “She will.

*looking down at Tara*

She’s not all grown yet.”

Tara: “You’re not worried?”

Willow: “I never worry here. I’m safe here.”

Tara: “You don’t know everything about me.”

Willow: “Have you told me your real name?”

Tara: “Oh, you know that.

*Willow smiles, reaches for something. Shot of a paintbrush dipping into ink jars*

They will find out, you know. About you.”

Willow: “Don’t have time to think about that. You know I have all this homework to finish.”

*the camera pulls back so we can see Tara is lying face-down on her bed, naked, and Willow is painting on her back*

Tara: “Are you gonna finish in time for class?”

Willow: “I can be late.”

Tara: “But you’ve never taken drama before.

*shot of Willow dipping the paintbrush again, moving it across to Tara’s back, which is covered with Greek symbols*

Might miss something important.”

Willow: “I don’t wanna leave here.”

*Tara twists back to look at her*

Tara: “Why not?”

*Willow stands up, looking down at Tara. She turns away toward a dark red curtain. Walks over to it*

Willow: “It’s so bright.

*pulls back the curtain to reveal a brightly sunlit desert. The light falls on Tara, who looks over. Looking back at Tara, still holding the curtain open*

And there’s something out there.”

*shot of the desert, straggly plants, rocks. We briefly see something (someone?) moving, then it’s gone. Shot of the kitten stalking forward toward the camera, in slow-motion*

I have been so anxious to get to this episode and write my meta. For all the time I’ve brought up Willow’s insecurities, this is the one and only episode that lays them all bare for everybody to see, if - and this is important -, you are clever enough to decipher the code of visual symbolism and possess the ability of interpretation. Pretty much all of the episode ‘Restless’ requires you to interpret what you see. You’re not told straight-forwardly what the dreams, each of the core 4 Scooby members have, are about and that’s precisely what I love about it and why it is probably my most favourite episode of the whole show.

Now, obviously, I’m only going to be talking about Willow’s dream in the episode because if I were to do an analysis of every character’s dream, I’d be here all day and this recap would be incredibly long. I would suggest watching YouTuber Passion Of The Nerd’s analysis for it to get the whole picture. Much of what I will write here will draw from that as I agree with quite a lot of it and think it makes a lot of sense in understanding each character. Every character has fears, worries and insecurities, and that’s what these dreams are specifically about, but Willow’s go much deeper than can be witnessed in all of the show due to her “hiding” them under a “thinly-veiled” persona of who she wants to be. For the most part, you only get to see who she wants you to see. It is not until this episode that all of Willow’s real thoughts and feelings take center-stage - quite literally. There’s a reason why both her dreams in ‘Nightmares’ and ‘Restless’ have her performing on stage. The former, being more about stage fright and about wanting to go unnoticed. The latter, about acting like something she’s not and “putting on a show” of confidence and security to the other characters, who she fears knows about “the real her”, and the audience watching her. Now, “the real her” is as ambiguous as this entire dream sequence is - meaning: it depends on your point of view who Willow is. And this is why I clash with @confusedguytoo about Willow often regarding my views and opinions on Willow. They see something different to me. However, I’ll let them better explain that if they so wish to. I’ll only explain what I see - in Willow - and in this episode.

I relate Willow’s insecurities to her accumulation of power and need for control. For me, much of what I interpret in ‘Restless’ ties in and very much foreshadows Willow’s magic addiction and ‘Dark Willow’ storyline in Season 6 because, to me, Dark Willow is less about the Magicks and more about power and rage, (Anya interjects here: “and vengeance, don’t forget vengeance”). So I will go through the meaning of Willow’s dream in ‘Restless’ from the way I interpret it and in my own words:

Starting off, we have Willow sat on Tara’s bed with Tara (well, actually Tara is laying down on it and Willow is sat on it.) Tara is turned away from Willow as Willow paints some writing on her bare back (see Passion Of The Nerd’s analysis to know what is being written because it’s very significant to the scene.) This part of Willow’s dream has more to do with Tara than Willow, but it’s important to remember that it’s all from Willow’s perspective. Willow worries that there’s something about Tara that Tara isn’t telling her. Something she’s not “facing her” with and letting her know bothers her. But other than that - she has no worries. She feels safest with Tara and, as I’ve previously mentioned in another recap, is much more invested in the relationship they share than Tara is at this point in it. And the scales don’t actually equal in that because Willow becomes uncomfortably and unhealthily invested in that she starts to abuse Tara in such a way where she wants to make sure Tara pays the most attention to her. And magic has always been the best way for Willow to have “her will be done” well before Tara entered the picture of her life. And so, she knows it’s her bread and butter to getting her way.

Moving on, we now see Willow walking the halls of Sunnydale high school and Xander and Oz are in the dream. No Tara. Meaning this part of the dream is something passed in her life but still very present in her mind. Although this is of the past, the dialogue between all 3 characters is about Willow’s then-future. There is mention of Tara and of the drama class they will take in college. I interpret this to mean that Willow can’t entirely let go of what was to focus on what is or what will be. Hence why Oz is in the scene and why he says “Oh, I’ve been here forever” when Willow asks him if he’s ever took the drama course - at which point we see Willow trying to take something out of her locker but can’t seem to get it open. I interpret this to mean she’s locked out and cannot access that part of her life anymore despite still thinking about it, and specifically Oz, in it. You see, Oz may have followed Willow to college, but he never stayed. Their relationship was only one that existed in high school and Willow has regretfully moved on from Oz and entered a new relationship that exists in college and will last beyond that. She cannot access her high school life anymore. She cannot access Oz anymore. Thus, their love affair was tied to their high school life and Willow no longer goes there.

At this point we see Willow walk out of the frame, leaving Xander and Oz behind, to stand backstage of a production in their drama class - of which Willow has never even rehearsed for and hasn’t even had her first drama class yet. And the characters of Harmony, Riley and Buffy are dressed up in costume ready to perform the play and tell Willow that she’s late but she’s “already” dressed in “costume” and “already” in “character”. Giles then enters the scene as the stage director and his dialogue in rallying his actors to get ready to perform reveals that this play is all about Willow. In fact - she’s the main character in it (go figure) and everybody in the audience, including the cast, is there to watch her perform.

“Acting is not about behaving, it’s about hiding. The audience wants to find you, strip you naked, and eat you alive, so hide.” - Giles.

Next Willow goes behind the stage curtains (which are red to represent a vagina, apparently, according to Whedon in the commentary track for ‘Restless’) and finds Tara among them with her who tells her that things aren’t going very well. Willow says that drama class is not being done in the “proper” way, she doesn’t know what to do, and the play’s starting soon. Tara then tells her that the play’s already started and that’s not the point anyway. Willow doesn’t understand. As the play happens without Willow, Tara disappears, and what was following Willow attacks her.

Buffy saves her and we go back to Sunnydale high school. This time we’re in a classroom. It isn’t clear which class but it’s presumably English as Willow reads out a book report on ‘The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe’. Before she does that though, Buffy tells Willow that the play is long over and asks her why she’s still in “costume”. Willow responds that it’s not a costume, she’s just in her outfit of the day. Buffy tells her that everybody already knows about her and to take her “costume” off, to which Willow panics and refuses. Buffy rips her “costume” off of her to reveal her wearing the clothes she was wearing on the very first episode of the show. Now, Willow stands in front of a full classroom of her peers (both from high school, college, and the Scooby Gang) mocking her for her appearance and her reaction to being totally exposed to what she believes everybody perceives of her as the truth of who she really is. Still a shy loser. The dream sequence ends with what was following Willow and attacked her throughout; the first Slayer sucking out her soul and leaving the real Willow paralyzed in her sleeping state. Unable to escape from her personal Hell.

So what does it all mean? Well, it really all depends on the way you interpret her dream. Some things about Willow and what she thinks and feels are clear, some are not. But how I’ve interpreted her dream in ‘Restless’ is that Willow, despite appearing a much more confident, secure and assertive person, doesn’t have any belief in herself when it comes to her value and requirement of her from her peers, friends and lovers… Or everyone that’s not her. Her need for validation in who she is and what she can do from everyone. Her worthiness in her work. Her ability and capacity to love. Her appearance to whoever perceives her. Especially the ones she loves. And her insecurities run so deep in this that even she doesn’t recognize them. She’s not aware to how much she’s acting like someone she’s not in order to please, in order to have attention, in order to feel of use to people. Now, it is not that she is still the loser. She’s definetly evolved into a much more worldly and well-rounded person since her high school days. Stronger, smarter, wiser, and more confident. It’s just she doesn’t believe in it and she absolutely fears no one else does either. In her mind she’s still the lonely nerd and she’s doing the most to make sure people don’t see that. Even though she has the belief that they do and always will. So her need for power and control all stems from these deep unconscious insecurities. Magic just happens to be the most effective tool for her to accumulate this. And she only becomes addicted to it in Season 6 because she relies on it to make her special. Even though she’s special as she is - with or without magic - to which Tara does her damnedest to make her aware of and believe. And she’s about the only person in the show that achieves it - until, of course, her death… Which, of course, triggers Dark Willow.

Willow's need for power and control as Dark Willow is channelled through rage and pain and so no amount of it is enough. Willow isn’t enough without Tara. None of these fears, worries and insecurities are the truth of Willow. But getting her to believe in and trust in that is next to impossible. Tara is only capable of it because she’s the one thing in the show that Willow truly loves. Is truly committed to. Is truly invested in. And she feels like she means and is nothing without her, without her love, without her attention, without her validation, without her light. She abuses her the most because she’s the one person in all of the show that she covets the most. That she doesn’t want to be without, that she feels the safest and is the happiest with. That she won’t let leave her life. Yes, it’s unhealthy. But true love can be when there’s so much inner turmoil. When there’s such a storm inside threatening to be unleashed with every bad day. Every screw up. Every "spaz" feeling. That's what it stems from. A loser mentality.

That is Willow’s entire predicament throughout the whole show and why her character representation, development and evolution is the greatest, the most profound, the most detailed, the most poignant. This is a character that you absolutely fall in love with very early on. To see them go from that gentle-natured, quirky, inspiring and endearing person to one of the most abusive, frustrating, corruptive and destructive people is hard. Fortunately, they’re given the endgame they deserve and become the hero. They learn to balance both sides to who they are - the dark and the light - and they become exactly who they want to be. Someone of great power and control. Someone that is valued and loved. Someone that matters. Whether she believes it or not is up to you. 😉

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