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think-queer · 2 years

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“this is my first time ever doing an ask thingy so hear with me if this is awfully written or such jwhsjws

this may sound like a weird question and maybe this fall more in "we need to talk about these people" more than an actual question in itself but i need to understand just how usual it is for queer activist who are trans / n-b to also be transphobic / n-b phobic?

for bit of context though, i used to be friends / mutuals on twt with people who were all trans / n-b (though there were also others who weren't and had the same attitude) to some extent and noticed that a lot of their opinion on our issues were... highly transphobic. by that i mean they'd say they "hate" afab n-b who still call themselves women or that have links to womanhood or dress fem because "what could they even be dysphoric about" and just saying a lot of "fuck non binary people" and one of them which striked me hard said he was glad he realized he was trans binary and not non binary because "ew" which 💀 yeah i don't even have the words for that.

i remember seeing so many "takes" of theirs with lots of underlying transphobia (and ig in a way misogyny due to the fact it's always targeted to anyone afab?) and all linked to their hate towards non binary afab (most of these people also are afab which is even more worrying imo)

and the worst is that these are opinions shared by a lot of other people with a pretty "big" voice and following in the lgbt activism online (this was on the french side of it but i have seen so many people with these type of opinions and harmful rhetoric across the community)

i'm just wondering if anyone has had this experience and how the hell did we come from sharing our experiences and fighting for our rights and identity to be recognized,,,, to hating on and blaming people literally just living their life and being comfortable with themselves for being "the reason" we're not taken seriously.“ -Anonymous user

I think that a lot of, if not most, trans and non-binary have some level of internalized transphobia and enbyphobia/exorsexism just from living in a transphobic/enbyphobic/exorsexist society.

The specific hatred of non-binary people who were AFAB is something that I’ve been seeing a lot recently which I have found very concerning. The specific hatred of non-binary people who were AFAB and still have some connection to womanhood and/or femininity seems to have it’s roots in transmedicalism, it sounds basically identical to the way people would describe “transtrenders” when that was the big concern.

Something that I’ve also seen a lot of is accusations the non-binary people who were AFAB weaponize their femininity the same way cis women do. I find this very worrying because it typically ends up lumping non-binary people who were AFAB along with cis women and treating those two groups as the same. I imagine this is something that does happen at times, but it’s not something that I’ve ever seen personally. I also find it concerning that people are reducing it to a problem with AGAB, when in my experience it’s really not. The weaponization of femininity isn’t something that I only see coming from people who were AFAB, it’s something I see coming specifically from white people who are perceived as women or feminine. My experience might be affected by being from the USA, where we have a history with white womanhood being used as a weapon, so people from other cultures may see it very differently. But when people reduce it to just an “AFAB thing” it feels like an attempt to take a real issue and twisting it to attack non-binary people who don’t sufficiently perform hatred of their AGAB.

Unfortunately it feels like this is just the newest target of exclusionists and infighting. When I first joined tumblr it was asexuals who were the target, for awhile it was non-binary people as a whole... It seems like there’s always some group getting targeted in many online queer spaces. It’s really depressing to see, especially when it starts to feel like a neverending cycle. If it’s any consolation I don’t see it very often in offline queer spaces (although I have had to stay away from most of those spaces for a couple years due to health issues) In online spaces I think that there are a lot of people who find some comfort in hurting other vulnerable people, it makes them feel like they have some sort of power and control. It’s really horrible, but when I’ve been part of a targeted group I have found some comfort in trying to keep in mind that these are just people who are looking for any acceptable target. It’s really not about you, or any non-binary person who was AFAB, it’s just about finding someone socially acceptable to hurt. And you will be able to find people and groups that aren’t like that, usually the bullies are just the loudest.

I’m not sure I really made any sense here to be honest, and I’d welcome anyone with a different perspective to add on here.

#I don't have anon on for my own mental health but i will post asks anonymously upon request #TQA #enbyphobia cw #exorsexism cw #obviously don't add on if you're going to be a jerk #i hope that goes without saying

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transmascissues · 3 years

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being a gender studies minor as a transmasc person is so weird because i get to read all this stuff about misogyny that i’ve personally experienced and can relate to but only ever in the context of “this is what happens to women”

like...okay so are you claiming i must be a woman because i’ve experienced this or that i couldn’t possibly experience it since i’m not a woman? because either way, not only is that transphobic but it also makes me feel as if this gender studies class is missing some very important nuance about, yknow, gender

and honestly? unless the professor brings it up when we discuss the readings and recognizes that the readings are lacking in that department, i am going to assume she believes one of those two things, and i’m going to be VERY uncomfortable in that class, which sucks because i’m genuinely very interested in the subject (hence it being my minor) and i think there are definitely effective ways to use cisnormative feminist theory without ignoring their cisnormativity

because the thing is, to anybody with any interest in actually acknowledging trans people, the issues are VERY obvious and it would be pretty easy to point out and just say “hey, remember that even though the articles say women, many trans people who aren’t women also deal with this”

hoping it gets better but based on my experience with past gender studies classes here, it probably won’t lmao like literally every class i’ve had spends AT MOST one unit acknowledging the existence of trans people and even then, it’s usually trans people who fit into the weird cis feminist “women and femmes” category (aka “people they can at least pretend are women”) because apparently even people who have been studying gender for decades can’t take the time to deconstruct their cisnormative views of who misogyny affects

i just...wish we had a word for “anyone society sees as a woman” because it would be so helpful for describing misogyny in a way that includes everyone it affects without overlooking that it’s based upon a foundation of hating women specifically

#transandrophobia #transandromisia #transmisandry #virilmisia #virilphobia #trans men #transmascs

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thedeadflag · 3 years

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I’m so confused! I know it’s not your responsibility to educate me but in your post bringing awareness to the negative aspects of g!p fanfic you say

“Why do these g!p characters rarely if ever involve experiences reflective of trans/intersex women? Why are they so utterly cis and perisex-washed? Why do nearly all writers have zero idea that tucking is a thing? “

Doesn’t that answer your original question? The reason they don’t reflect those groups of ppl is bc g!p isn’t trying to represent those groups of people or else it WOULD be transphobic to limit them to one specific fetish right? it just refers to a canonically female character with the addition of a penis (I don’t argue the name “g!p” should be changed bc that’s a no brainer why that could be offensive). But the fanfic in general, how could it be harmful? I’ve noticed in my time reading it as a non binary person it’s given me great gender euphoria reading a reader insert where reader has a penis while being a femme representing person just bc that’s a reflection of my personal experience. I don’t see anywhere where g!p fanfic ever references or tries to emulate the experiences of trans or intersex people so how could it be offensive?

Sorry this is way too long I’m just very confused

I'm going to try and lay this out as politely as I can. It's after 3:30 in the morning here, so this could be a bit disjointed and rambling. More under the cut:

In real life, ~99.999999% of women with penises are trans women. Which puts us in a tricky situation of (A) being the only women with penises around for media involving women with penises to reflect back on, and (B) being in the lovely position of precious few people actually having had meaningful real life exposure to trans women, meaning (C.) all those stigmas and all that misinformation are going to purely affect us and it’s going to be uncritically gobbled up by the masses, since they don’t have any meaningful information to fill in the blanks with instead.

When we peer into the depths of femslash fandoms and see all these folks who aren't trans women writing about women with penises, and using cis women’s bodies as platforms for these penises, it’s the simplest thing.

I mean, some of those folks might actually be struggling and confused about why they’re into it, what the real appeal is, why they get off on it, why they might have some feelings about wanting a penis of their own…

…but from our vantage point, it’s really easy to gauge 99.99% of the time. We can generally see valid, legitimate yearning to have a penis pretty damn easily in a piece of art/writing, and we can also see when people who create this media are just hung up on a boatload of baggage and fetishization.

And 99.9% of the time, the creators are just hung up on a boatload of baggage and fetishization, and see trans women’s bodies as a perfect vehicle to tap into that, generally due to deeply held cissexist views that link us and our bodies and genitals directly to cis men, to maleness. As if penises are rooted in maleness and masculinity (which is absolutely not true).

And I have sympathy for NB folks (certainly TME ones who have reached out to me in the past about this) who might be struggling with that, but just because they’re non-binary, it doesn’t mean they get to appropriate our bodies and reproduce transmisogyny and trans fetishization in their attempts at feeling better. Shit doesn't work like that.

Because again, the only women with penises in this world, essentially, are trans women. Meaning any woman with a penis in media is a trans woman, implicitly or explicitly. Meaning that when people who aren’t us want to write us, intent doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter if it’s just the writer’s fantasy, it’s still going to attach a variety of messages directly onto us.

And more often than not, due to cissexism, those messages are linking us to maleness, to toxic masculinity, etc..

While I do want to believe they're a fairly small minority, a lot of NB folks in fandom spaces like g!p characters in part because they see penises as male and the rest of the body as female and think that duality is interesting and would be comfortable, and is a nice balance of “both worlds” or a nice position “between male and female”, but that’s a wholly cissexist, transmisogynistic view to have, and it’s one that absolutely cannot be supported without directing sexual violence against trans women and invalidating our entire existence. Certainly not all NB folks into g!p like it for that reason, but holy shit a fair bit of them do and it’s weird and wrong and fetishistic.

g!p emerged from the idea that women can't have penises, and drew on the transmisogyny and cissexism of tr*nny porn to structure that frame of desire and the core patterns and trends within these works. It's always been trans women's bodies being used as a vehicle, whether or not the writers of these fics are explicitly aware of it, because the trope itself still holds true to its original patterns and cissexism. It's not the name that's the problem, it's the content; changing the name would be a surface level change that wouldn't affect anything.

g!p objectifies women with penises (trans women). A woman with a penis is more than just a woman with a penis, but the use of the term and trope is literally to (A) remind people that women don't have penises, otherwise the g!p term wouldn't be needed if people actually accepted women with penises as women, and that (B) this is a story centered on a scenario where there's a woman with a penis, with key focus on that genitalia specifically. it's the drawing point, it's the lure, it's what everything is centered on. It is a means for folks to write lesbian sex while also writing about penis in vagina and getting off to it. It's also no surprise that the penises so clearly emulate cis men's penises in these works, that is by design.

As I’ve said many times before, if you’re only writing trans women’s bodies to showcase cis men’s penises, you’re not respecting the womanhood of trans women, and this ultimately has nothing inherent to do with penis-owning women, it has to do with (cis) men and their penises, because trans women are just being used as a vehicle to emulate them. When NB folks do the same thing, and imagining themselves as those g!p characters, they are ultimately embodying cis men, their maleness, and often toxic masculinity, in a way that feels safe and distanced enough for them, a shell that they often code as cisnormative due to their own unprocessed cissexism.

And trans women don’t deserve that.

You seem caught in the idea that if something doesn't directly perfectly reflect trans women, that it can't be linked to us., which ignores the long long history of media being used to misrepresent marginalized peoples and cast us in insulting, dehumanizing lights. You show a lack of understanding of the g!p trope and the long history of its usage across a few other names, even if the content and patterns remained the same. It shows a lack of understanding of tr*nny porn and transmisogynistic stigmas, which the trope draws heavily from.

I think we can all recognize that most 'lesbian' prn that's made does not represent actual lesbians, it's overwhelmingly catered to the male gaze. We can also recognize that this category of porn has led to a lot of harassment towards lesbians from cis men who at the very least want to believe lesbians are just like they are in the porn he watches, that lesbians just need the right man. Lesbians are being used as a vehicle for a fantasy that was created externally to them, and doesn't represent their realities.

It's the same kind of situation here. The way g!p fics play out overwhelmingly doesn't reflect trans women's realities, but they are inherently linked to us regardless, as we're the vehicles for those fantasies, as unrealistic and harmful as they may be.

g!p characters are built in our fetishized image that’s based on a deeply cissexist misunderstanding of us, of the gender binary, and of bodies in general.

I mean, when 99% of cis folks don’t understand how trans women tend to be sexually intimate… when they don’t understand what dysphoria is and how it works and how it can affect us physically and emotionally…when they don’t understand almost any of our lived experiences…then they’re not going to be able to accurately portray us even if they wanted to.

And I’ve read enough g!p fics where authors wrote those as a means of trying to add trans rep, but because they didn’t understand us at all, it wasn’t remotely representative, and it was ultimately fetishistic, even if there was an undercurrent of sympathy and a lack of following certain common g!p patterns there that differentiated it from the norm.

If g!p fics were at all about reducing dysphoria or finding euphoria, then it wouldn’t be explicitly tied up in the performance of very specific sex acts, very specific forms of misogyny and toxic masculinity, very specific forms of sexual violence and exertion of sexual power, etc.

But it is.

So the notion that creating g!p fics helps NB folks? Nope. It CAN certainly prevent/delay those folks from facing a whole boatload of shit they’ve internalized, and coddle them at the expense of trans women.

Because if it was really about bodies and dysphoria/euphoria, there would be a considerable push (allying with out own) to end our fetishization and to represent us in and out of sexual contexts with accuracy, respect, and care. Because they wouldn’t care what sex acts were performed and what smut beats were hit, they’d just want to see someone with a body like their ideal being loved, being sexual, connecting, being authentic, etc. Which very much is not the case in the overwhelming majority of g!p fics. That's what we want, and it's not what g!p writers want, it's nothing they give a shit about.

Like, a ways back I started doing random pulls of g!p fics from various fandoms and assessing them for certain elements to provide some quantitative clarity. I started on The 100 here, and did OuaT here. Never finished the 100 one since the results leveled out and stayed pretty consistent as the sample size grew, so I didn't really see the point in continuing any further after about 140 fics when the data wasn't really changing much at all.

Lastly, media influences people. I've read countless posts and comments from people who use fanfiction as a sex ed guide, in essence. Which is ridiculous, but I also know sex ed curricula often isn't very accurate or extensive in a lot of areas, so people take what they can get. Representation in media can be powerful, and when it overwhelmingly misrepresents people, that's also powerful. Just because fandom is a bit smaller than televised media, it doesn't make that impact any lesser, certainly not for those whose primary media intake is within fandom.

Virtually all trans representation in f/f fanfiction is misrepresentative of us. That has a cost in how people understand us, how people react to us, and how people treat us. Not just online, but in physical spaces, and in intimate settings.

I invite you to read that post you referenced again, or perhaps this longer one which is a response to a trans guy who seemed to feel something similar to you with this trope.

All I can do is lay it out there and try to explain this. It's up to you how you handle this. All I know is whenever there's a big surge in g!p in a fandom, trans women generally leave it en masse, because it's a very clear and consistent message that we're not valued, respected, and that people value getting off on us over finding community with us.

#g!p #creative responsibility #trans fetishization #trans representation #intersex fetishization #intersex representation #genitals tw #genital mention tw #intersexism #transmisogyny #fandom meta #long post #cissexism #t slur tw #media representation #media literacy

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el-moscorrofio-y-el-mercachifle · 3 years

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Same here: Betty, Marcela, and Armando- The holy trinity lol

Betty has my heart, but I find Marcela and Armando so fascinating and I love unpacking their dysfunctional relationship. There's just so much to discuss and analyze in their dynamic. Their competing egos, the incompatibility in personalities, and general lack of respect for one another, all wrapped with the irony that on paper, and in society's view, they were "perfect for each other". For me though, ultimately, both Armando and Marcela were victims of their own prejudice that was condemning them to settle into a relationship that made them both so unhappy.

Omg yes, in this victimization of Marcela, people fail to recognize how misogynistic she actually was!! Marcela took out all her frustration on not being able to control Armando's infidelity and her denial of how bad their relationship was, on the women that surrounded him, regardless if they engaged with him romantically or not. Her hatred for Betty is the biggest example of that. It's ironic that on paper, Armando hiring Betty as his secretary should have been the best news for somebody as jealous of beautiful women as she was. Yet literally her reason for hating Betty was that Armando was a cheater, even if (at least initially lol) she had nothing to do with that. But there she was, trying to justify her hate in creative ways when it was all rooted in misogyny and resentment towards Armando. Yet, breaking up with him was out of the question. The epitome of this is the scene where Marcela takes Betty out for lunch trying to get information out of her. I mean, she's broken and I genuinely feel for her in this scene, but when she tries to manipulate Betty using the female solidarity card 🙄🤦🏽‍♀️🤦🏽‍♀️🤦🏽‍♀️🤦🏽‍♀️ AKJSDHAJDK. I CAN'T lol. That's exactly what she never showed Betty, solidarity... not as a woman, not as a professional. and not as a human being. But again, Marcela did have her moments where she was reasonable, showed good judgement as a boss, and it was hard not to root for her in general.

Yes, Armando's parents were terrible. They were terrible to both Armando and Marcela. I've seen criticism of Don Hermes (justified) but at least in Betty's household, she had genuine display of love and affection, even if they did handicap her in some ways with their overprotection. And that's a whole other discussion. But that's what so amazing about the series, it gives way for so much interpretation, perspective, and analysis. For example: Mario Calderon is a terrible human being, the ultimate villain of the series, but also he was almost impossible to hate👀😭🤣.

Lol! The Holy Trinity of Ambiguity and Chaos lol❤️

Same here. I love Betty for her sweet, way-too-innocent personality and her sense of humor (even if it’s more like a mechanism to deal with her insecurities and how much they affect her), but Armando and Marcela are so dark and interesting (although good to notice that Betty herself BECOMES pretty dark aftet she finds the Letter. She becomes just as abusive as Marcela in revenge). Yes, everything in that relationship was so, so wrong!

I’d say a great part of Armando’s and Marcela clinge to each other (Armando’s clinge to Marcela is strange— he “needs” her, can’t let her go because she “represents” a good, stable life dven though in practice it’s chaos, yet at the same time he’s desperately trying to free himself and get a breath of fresh air), more than prejudice itself, it was due to their parents. They have a very strange dynamic, as they both see Roberto and Margarita as their parents, and Roberto and Margarita also treat Marcela and Armando as their children (they constantly call them that), and often blur the lines in the relationship between the two, like that scene the day of the collection in which Claudia Bosch got drunk. That time Armando and Marcela were fighting and angry; it was a couple’s quarrel that could have seriously affected their relationship. But Margarita and Roberto treated it like a pair of little siblings fighting over a toy, and even asked them to hug each other, smile, and “make peace”. That was so, so strange. That was a siblings’ dynamic, not a couple’s. Armando and Marcela grew up together, so we can assume that it’s been this way their whole lives. This just can’t possibly be healthy. Add to that how Margarita was always partly helping Marcela, and partly helping Armando, because in her eyes they were both her children… and on top of it all, the constant drilling into their heads of how they were meant to be together and it was the Mendozas’ and Valencias’ dream to see their children getting married. They were treated like siblings and expected to love each other as a couple. Just weird.

We could also mention that, even though Armando was a womanizer, he only looked for beautiful women of a high status. The kind of woman that, were it not because he’s already with Marcela, his parents would aprove, unlike the poor guy that Camila married and got her exiled from the family. Even Armando’s rebellion and need for freedom restricted to what his family would approve.

Yes! Marcela even laughs at the idea of Betty being Armando’s secretary and mocks him that he’s “presenting symptoms of fidelity”😓 she hated Betty simply for being ugly, and completely disregarded her professional abilities based off her looks… but, funnily enough, she never criticizes or judges Gutierrez for being ugly, nor ever undermines his owrk or authority (except when he was trying to abuse his position to take advantage of Aura Maria). It was just all rooted in mysogyny and classism.

Omggg! Yesss! That scene always irked me. The way she says “we are both women, and we need to be in solidarity of that feeling”. Like, girl, whaaaat? She spent the whole show callinf Betty a thing, an animal, an undefined being, etc. Marcela even told Armando explicitly that she found offensive that Armando believed that she saw Betty as a female rival, and even Armando seems shocked or disgusted for a second there. Marcela genuinely didn’t even see her as a human being. She had her good side (thus why I can’t hate her), and I feel bad for her situation, but it’s important to also highlight her bad attitudes and not hide them under the rug like most of the fandom seems to do 😓😓

Lol, tbh I loooove Mario Calderon. He’s an a-hole, mysogynistic, manipulator, awful “friend”, maquiavelic, cruel, and much more, but he’s soooo funny. He has so much charisma! I can’t help but love his scenes because he always makes me laugh. Ahh, ysblf always finding a way ti make people love very wrong and broken characters😌❤️✨

#betty la fea #ysblf #yo soy betty la fea #armando mendoza #marcela valencia #mario calderon #beatriz pinzon solano #beatriz pinzón solano

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tsaomengde · 3 years

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As I've gotten older, I've gotten less hung up on sexuality as a concept. I was raised by a well-meaning but conservative and Catholic father, and while he may have died when I was twelve, I still picked up a lot from him. Lot of internalized homophobia and misogyny. I also grew up in the nineties and noughts, when anything that was bad or weird was "gay." Deprogramming all of that from myself has been, and continues to be, a lifelong process.

So it makes me question myself. I think particular men are good-looking and attractive. I've experienced what I recognize as sexual desire for one or two men I've known personally. Why have I resisted saying I'm bisexual, or queer? Is it that internalized homophobia again, or a manifestation of our cultural biphobia, particularly as regards bisexual men?

None of my experiences with personal or systemic oppression have been about my sexuality. All of them have been about being autistic in an allistic world. But being queer isn't about experiencing oppression in that way, it's about your desires and identity. It is not defined by the animus of a nebulous other. If a thirteen-year-old who's grown up in a liberal household in San Francisco and has never been called a slur for their sexuality says they're queer, I believe them. So why do I feel that I need to have experienced this to 'deserve' a label?

All of my sexual experiences, except kissing a man while drunk in college, have been with women. All of my relationships have been with women. I'm married to a woman, and we have no desire to open our marriage or otherwise add a third. When I consume pornography, the locus of my desire is women. Pragmatically speaking, this question of queerness affects me very little to not at all. But being queer isn't about who you've slept with. If that same thirteen-year-old has never so much as kissed anyone, I still believe them when they say they're queer. So why do I feel I haven't done enough to 'deserve' this label?

Sexuality is a spectrum. If another person said to me precisely what I've said to you, I would say, you sound like you're bisexual with a preference for women. So why do I think of myself as simply a straight ally, even now?

I'm not really asking any of you these questions. You don't need to engage with this post at all, if you don't want to. I've talked about this with my wife and my therapist. I'm not sitting here having an existential crisis; my identity and my security are not linked to having a quick and easy answer. I expect I will continue to question, and explore, for a long time before I settle on one thing or another. (Bonus follow-up question: am I taking such a long and academic approach to this because part of me doesn't *want* to identify this way, for any of the reasons listed above? I don't know.) I'm putting these things out there into the ether, because maybe someone on my friends list will see this and it might help them in some way, give them perspective in some way. These are interesting questions, and I expect I'm not the only one who's considered them.

#identity #queer stuff #personal #mostly thinking out loud

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charismastaticarchive · 4 years

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CLAUDE HC: humanity & the cynical idealist & tragic biracials

claude does believe in transactional affection / information and relationships. he’s a cynic by nature, with a chip on his shoulder---and he doesn’t very much like people who don’t like him and his people and the circumstances of his birth. he’s playing a long game---and i don’t think his people necessarily believe in him. this is a last-ditch effort to form ACTUAL trade bonds and allegiances with fodlan after his mother literally turned her back on her inheritance & the whole cruel world of it (for reasons that are both obvious and just. if only all women in fodlan could get away from its system of eugenics and misogyny).

claude doesn’t really believe that humanity is good as a default. children are just children, and they learn what they’re taught. he believes people are what they are raised to be---and he recognizes that fodlan will always have a bias against him. instead, his idealism comes from his belief that to be human is to be malleable and changeable, that every human can learn to grow & change & make great strides towards the future. humanity is a literal flower in a desert that must be tended to, whose thorns must be clipped, that needs to be watered and weeded and given JUST ENOUGH sunlight.

claude is angry, beneath the surface, and he’s hurt---the way any biracial is hurt when the white side of their family is racist towards them (i speak from experience, my white dad makes coronavirus jokes towards my mom), and claude’s had literal attempts on his life because of who and what he is. he’s grown around it, he’s learned from it for his own survival---but while that motivates him, it doesn’t make him stronger, it just fuels the fire in his heart to make humanity better the way he dreams it could be, in his idealist heart where he thinks humanity sucks ass, but could be so beautiful if everyone could learn to be better, the way he knows they can be with just a little push. but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t still experience hurt. to say he just brushes it off is like. i don’t know. it feels weird to me, as if to invalidate the pain that comes with this specific brand of racism.

he HAS to use transactional conditional relationships for allegiances, he has to play chess games, he has to push his anger and his hurt down. i don’t think it makes him a ‘tragic biracial person’ that he has feelings about literal attempts on his life and the racist ideas that his own friends have against his people that he’s forced to spend time with every day (hilda and cyril). he’s half fodlan, and these people should accept them, they should let him have his birthright and their allegiance, but they wouldn’t let him if they knew where he really came from---and some people don’t want him to now, even assuming he ISN’T almyran. racism is real, and poc will always have feelings about the great tragedies that happen every day. he can be tragic and still have dreams, still keep people at an arm’s length to protect them and himself and WANT everyone to hold hands and be free to be who they are.

there are great moments of joy in claude’s life, even surrounded by people who hate him. and he believes that the growth of humanity through ending prejudice and war against his people isn’t just for him and people like him. it’s for his friends, who are missing out on the beautiful way of almyran life, and the beautiful way his parents love each other.

and just having tragedy in his past and not fitting into a fictional world that is divided by race, and admitting that he experiences both privilege (literally being able to come to fodlan and be the heir and pretend to be white bc he’s white-passing enough according to the game) and feelings of exclusion for not ‘fitting in’ bc he has a white mom and his people probably have feelings about her being born from the very nation that oppresses them on a global scale, bc that’s easy enough to extrapolate in the context of the game, doesn’t mean that he’s a ‘tragic biracial person.’ its like. just him being human that reacts in a human manner?

just. i don’t know! let him be hurt! let him have feelings! let him feel not enough part of one culture or the other and feel that is both his greatest asset in unifying them and also, something that makes him feel confused and enraged sometimes. let him be a human being that feels hurt!!!!! a lot of biracials (more white-passing ones especially) feel like they have to ‘pick a side’ when theyre young or theyre not genuinely one or the other and experience great discomfort because of it. thats a genuine experience and not like. something that can be boiled down to a harmful trope, if u give the biracial u are portraying the humanity and depth they deserve. claude is a complex character, and the way he percieves himself and his race and his two inheritances, which drives his whole character arc, can be complex as well, and still include pain and confusion about being biracial. ok end rant.

#we all go into edelgards trauma and dimitri's trauma all the time..... claude DOES have trauma and its about him being biracial and tbh #thats okayyyyyyyyyyyy especially in a fantasy period piece which is supposed to be metaphorical and about real life issues #claude is allowed to feel hurt and confused and he can still be good heroic biracial representation #i just am afraid people r gonna try to oversimplify that experience into pure tragedy or pure badassness or pure sunshine boy tropes #there's like. so much complexity to this particular experience #and idk!!!!! i feel like if claude was like. fuckin half elf instead of half nonwhite. people would be ok saying he had weird feelings #and a complicated experience with race #racism tw #{ ooc: hc }#{ hc: the schemer; the dreamer | claude }

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echodrops · 6 years

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Why Do Certain Ships Become So Popular? (And Why Should Writers Rethink When They Do?) - Part 2

<- Start back at part 1 or you’re going to be very confused!

This time my victim of choice example is Klance (and Allurance and Lotura too).

In a previous post, I established the premise that shippers focus their efforts and attention on ships between characters who exhibit the most compelling dynamism, the greatest amount of emotional energy--good feelings or bad--that directly relates to one or more of the characters’ growth arcs... or the two characters whose emotional interactions most significantly affect a story’s main plot.

This idea (that shippers are looking for strong, dynamic emotional interactions that are directly tied to plot) feeds directly into my second premise: part of the popularity of slash ships comes from the fact that, very often, the strongest and most plot-relevant emotional events don’t occur between male characters and female characters, but between male protagonists and other male characters--due to a combination of 1) a much smaller number of female characters, 2) a majority of writers for anime/manga and American shows being male; 3) under-developed or poorly written female characters, and 4) the tendency to situate males in the hero, sidekick, and villain positions, increasing the chance that their actions will have greater importance in the story’s main plot.

In short, writers can unintentionally cause fans to prefer non-canon slash ships by writing more dynamic, better developed, and more plot-relevant interactions between their male leads than between the main character and his designated female love interest.

Now hang on. Before you get all up in arms, yes, I’m perfectly aware there are plenty of other reasons slash ships are popular, including:

A huge desire among LGBT+ fans for positive representation

The fact that m/m interactions appeal to straight women/others the same way w/w interactions are sexy to straight men/others

The tendency of shows, particularly from Japan, to deliberately queer-bait

The fact that many women vicariously ship male characters together because it allows them to imagine a relationship of “genuine equals,” particularly in areas where women feel they are still not treated equally to men

The tendency for “pair the spares” to result in m/m ships simply due to a lower number of available female characters

And so on

This isn’t written to negate any of those reasons or to imply that they aren’t major factors in the popularity of slash ships, not at all, but it has always, always struck me as reductive when I hear things like “Slash ships are only popular because girls think two dudes together is hot” (the fetish argument) or “Girls will ship any two good-looking male characters together regardless of canon. They just hate het ships” (the fetish argument with a side dish of misogyny).

In particular, this last one--an argument I’ve heard from a lot of male fandom members (but of course not all)--has always gotten under my skin, because it implies that girls who ship aren’t capable of critically analyzing the media we consume and identifying characters who have meaningful interactions and interesting potential. That we, unlike those viewers who adhere to the canon (typically heterosexual) relationships, are somehow reading these stories wrong, blind to “real” romance (namely the one between the male hero and his best girl/waifu), and/or misusing male characters with zero regard for their personalities--worse, this argument also implies that female fans deliberately hate or under-appreciate oh-so-perfectly written female characters whose romantic subplots are totally natural and not at all an unfortunate side effect of their position as the token chick on the team...

At its best, the statement: “Girls will ship any two good-looking male characters” is demeaning in its dismissal of a majority of slash shippers and their ability to read characters. At its worse, it’s this exact dismissal that continues to allow so many (primarily male) authors to write under-developed, unimportant, token female love interests: “It’s the girls [or the slash shippers] who are weird; there’s nothing wrong with the way we’re doing things.”

But guess what happens when well-written female characters whose actions are central to a story’s main plot are introduced and highlighted? Guess what happens when the emotional energy between a female lead and her male counterpart is the most compelling and dynamic in the series?

The (often canon) het ship suddenly--somehow--magically becomes well-liked by fans!

Zutara and Kataang vastly out-strip any slash Avatar pairings in popularity. Noragami’s Yatori commands a staggering following in the fandom. Is there anyone in their right mind who thinks Alucard/Integra wasn’t the best pairing to end Hellsing with? No one debates whether or not Ahiru and Fakir from Princess Tutu are true love. In Doctor Who, Rose and the Doctor reign so far supreme in the fandom that none of the other ships even need to exist though I actually prefer River. Terra and Aqua from Kingdom Hearts beat out every other Terra or Aqua ship by a mile (and this is in a series notorious for hating and under-shipping its female characters). Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-Kun has no problem juggling three very well-accepted het ships--even while having a scene in which two male characters sit down and draw a gay manga together. Ain’t nobody suggesting Mr. Bates and Anna from Downton Abbey should be with anyone else, right? And this is just in the handful of shows I personally have time to watch. Anyone who reads or watches a series with well-written female characters can play this exact same game!

The obvious conclusion? Female fans are perfectly willing to ship heterosexual pairings--if they’re well-written.

It’s the same story all over again: when the real emotional energy, the dynamic core, the most plot-relevant interactions occur between a male and female character, they too can become the fan-preferred couple. (Shocking!)

Yes, yes, I hear you saying “B-But wait, sometimes the m/m ship is more popular even though the het love interest is well-written!” or “Sometimes girls ship guy characters who have never even met!” or “So what you’re saying is female fans wouldn’t ship slash if there were better het options available?”

1) Don’t get me wrong--there are certainly always exceptions. I’m pointing out a trend, not a rule. Sometimes a fandom has a separate, specific reason for elevating a non-canon slash ship above a well-written canon het ship. (Someone who is actually in the Fullmetal Alchemist fandom might be able to explain why Ed/Roy is more popular than Roy/Riza, probably?) And in situations where a slash ship and a het ship in a series both have equally strong emotional energy, my bet is that the slash ship will always come out on top because it gets the added benefit of people liking LGBT+ rep and straight girls (and anyone else) who just think m/m is hot.

2) Crack ships definitely do exist. But usually when a crack ship actually manages to become popular, it’s because fans have recognized the potential for a strong emotional energy between two characters. If the two characters could reasonably have strong tension because of similarities, differences, or other elements of their characters, then crack ships are still following the trend of aligning with emotional energy, even if that energy is only anticipated at the moment.

3) I definitely don’t mean to suggest that slash ships are shoddy seconds to fans who would “naturally” prefer het ships if good het ships were available. What I’m suggesting is only that it’s no surprise slash ships are so extremely and consistently popular across so many fandoms, because in terms of plot relevance, depth of writing, and meaningful interactions with each other, male characters so rarely have any real competition. A desire for LGBT+ representation and people living out power or equality fantasies through slash are certainly motivating factors and good and worthy reasons to write slash. But one unfortunate contributor to the popularity of slash ships is that male characters continue to occupy a place of privilege in modern narratives. Our heroes remain overwhelmingly male. Our sidekick/lancer/buddy characters remain overwhelmingly male. Our villain characters remain overwhelmingly male. That is to say: male characters continue to dominate all the most “plot relevant” roles in our narratives, and so long as male leads continue to be placed in roles where their most compelling emotional interactions and greatest sources of character growth are other male characters, slash ships will continue to dominate fandoms’ online presences.

(Hilarious: the dude bros who complain about the number of slash ships in their favorite series are often the very same ones supporting and becoming the writers whose shallow portrayals of female characters further bolster the popularity of said slash ships in the first place...)

Okay, I’ve made you wait long enough.

What does all of this have to do with Voltron?

Well, you’ve probably figured that part out already, actually.

If we consider the “emotional energy” and tension among Voltron’s main characters, there’s absolutely no question who is at the core, where the most plot relevant and meaningful emotional interactions have occurred, where the “heart” of the story is, in essence...

Hint: It’s Keith.

(Just a heads up: I’m going to use Klance as the example because it’s the most popular Voltron pairing according to the numbers, but any Sheith fan worth their salt could obviously very, very easily apply these ideas one-for-one to that ship, because clearly Shiro’s interactions with Keith are some of the most emotionally tense and compelling in the entire Voltron series--they are a consistent core of feeling energy for the show which naturally leads many people to support this ship. A large part of the reason that this post is tagged Sheith is because I am absolutely inviting Sheith shippers to use the theory and lens in this essay to analyze Sheith--using this idea to analyze Sheith will reveal a lot of intense emotional energy to discuss and validate that ship. I’m very tempted to put this paragraph in all caps or something so the Sheith shippers will actually read it and stop badgering me...)

Keith (and his relation with other characters) is the core of Voltron’s main plot, both in that he is positioned as the leader/the hero/the protagonist, and because, obviously, almost all of the series’ emotional high points (with the exception of “Crystal Venom” and Pidge’s search for Matt) somehow feature him.

Keith isn’t just central in the main plot though; he’s also central in the individual arcs of two other characters: Lance and Shiro. He’s a motivating and driving factor in both of these characters’ stories and change throughout the series, affecting their actions, attitudes, and self-worth, and so it should come as absolutely no surprise that Sheith and Klance are the series’ most popular ships.

But since Klance is the most popular pairing, the person I really want to talk about is Lance.

You can say a lot of things about Lance and the raging debates that occurred over whether or not Lance is a straight loverboy trope or not, but I don’t think any viewer of Voltron would deny that, if we consider the main cast members (Team Voltron plus Lotor), the core of Lance’s emotional energy and tension is Keith. His interactions with Keith--not even in a romantic sense, simply in a storytelling sense--are more important and dynamic than his on-screen interactions with any other main character.

From his laser focus on Keith at Garrison that caused him to invent a rivalry (this word is basically just a synonym for “emotional energy” at this point):

To comedic banter:

To the infamous bonding moment:

To a fledgling “right hand man” partnership:

To Lance’s insecurities:

The story of Voltron itself continuously reiterates that Lance’s interactions with Keith are more dynamic, more intense (even if we’re talking about “Rawr, I hate you, we’re rivals!” emotions instead of lovey-dovey stuff), and more plot relevant than Lance’s interactions with other characters in the series. Lance’s emotional arc is irrevocably centered on Keith until very, very late in the series.

More importantly: Lance’s motivation and personal plot line as a whole are centered on Keith. At it’s most basic, Lance’s character arc seems like it was supposed to center on Lance’s sense of self-worth--despite acting confident, Lance was actually insecure about his ability to help save the universe. Theoretically, his narrative should have focused on him becoming confident about his place on the team and his value as both a friend and fellow paladin to the other main characters. His arc should have been (and I guess theoretically still is? It’s just not... ever given much attention?) about him overcoming his insecurity by learning to recognize his own unique talents and discovering the things that only he can do to help Team Voltron succeed. (Hell, the entire Allurance thing could have been framed as “She’s completely out of my league” ---> “Whoa, originally I was putting Allura on a pedestal but actually she’s as much a member of this team as me--we’re in this together, side-by-side.”)

Whether or not the semi-incoherent narrative of Voltron actually delivered on this promise is iffy, but the set up in season 1-3ish is all there and all Keith:

At Garrison, Lance viewed Keith as a road block in his quest to becoming a fighter class student. Keith’s achievements and talent became a measuring stick for Lance’s own capabilities. He imagined a rivalry to make himself feel better/less insecure. His drive not to lose out to Keith is what dragged Hunk and Pidge along to Shiro’s rescue and ultimately led to the discovery of the Blue Lion. Lance comparing himself unfavorably to Keith as a paladin and pilot contributed to (mostly) one-sided animosity throughout the early seasons that gave way to a scene of Lance attempting to step down from the team because he didn’t see himself worthy of the position in comparison to Keith:

The logical conclusion that I think most fans would draw from these many scenes is that, as part of Lance’s overall character growth across the whole series, he needed to have a moment in which he recognized that he isn’t--and has never been--inferior to Keith.

Ultimately, the first five seasons continually reiterate the idea that, in terms of interactions, energy, and dynamic character growth, the most important main character in Lance’s story (other than Lance) is Keith.

Keith’s interactions with Lance are directly and immediately tied to Lance’s individual character arc/growth, and Keith is definitely the focus of Lance’s most meaningful emotional tension throughout seasons 1-5 at least.

Which means it shouldn’t come as any surprise that Klance is the most popular Lance ship, particularly when you set it side-by-side with the (increasingly canon) Allurance.

I just want to make this abundantly clear before I begin: I have absolutely nothing against Allurance shippers and, until it was done so poorly in season 5-6 (and potentially 7, I still haven’t even finished that one), I actually was okay with the possibility of Allurance being endgame because I thought there was potential for it to be done well. After what we’ve been given, I actually feel the Allurance shippers have been horribly shortchanged by the show’s real writing, and that I can’t personally support the ship the way it’s being written, but that’s not the fault of the characters themselves or anything inherently “wrong” with the ship. So please don’t take the rest of what I say here as ship hate--this is just observations from a literary analysis standpoint.

What has prevented Lance and Allura from gaining significant traction with the fans despite the fact that it’s edging close to canon territory if it isn’t canon already?

Well, one problem might be that Lance’s emotional energy has no bearing on Allura’s individual character development--and Allura’s emotional peaks have no bearing on Lance’s personal arc either (at least as far as it was established in early seasons and then left essentially unresolved).

Allura’s arc has, throughout the course of the show, centered on her ability to defeat her family’s foes, her grief for her lost people and planet, and her desire to follow in her father’s footsteps as a leader and in the Altean traditions as well. None of this has much of anything to do with Lance. Her growth as a character occurs--with the exception of the single shining scene on Naxela--completely independently of Lance. She lets her father’s memory go on her own in “Crystal Venom.” She faces Zarkon head-to-head by herself after rescuing Shiro. It’s Shiro who stops her from over-working herself to aid the coalition, not Lance. It’s Keith’s whose Galra blood forces her to re-examine and overcome some of her universal hatred for the Galra. It’s Lotor who helps her reach Oriande, and her own ingenuity that allows her to tame the White Lion and learn the secrets of Altean alchemy.

With the exception of the scene on Naxela where it was specifically Lance’s speech that motivated Allura to save the day, virtually all of her most charged emotions occurred elsewhere and with other characters, and there’s nothing in her personal goals--to be a strong leader, to revive her culture, to save the universe--that is intrinsically tied with Lance. He can encourage and aid her in those pursuits, but so can Shiro, Keith, Pidge, Hunk, and Coran. The role of fellow paladin and supporting ally isn’t unique to Lance. His interactions with her don’t fill a niche that drives her personal plot lines outside of the romance subplot.

And the same thing is true in reverse.

We get this nice scene of Allura encouraging Lance and helping him work on his insecurity... And then it is promptly never mentioned again. (Where did the sword go, guys? Where???) Lance gives up Blue to Allura and she’s almost immediately gifted at piloting the Blue Lion, while Lance is shown struggling with Red (once more in Keith’s shadow) and still hadn’t, as of the end of season 6, seemed to have mastered it to the same extent as Keith. It’s Keith, Laika (an alien dog--not Allura guys, an alien dog) and the SPACE MICE that Lance expresses his insecurities to, and it’s Coran who is there for Lance’s touching scene expressing his longing to return to Earth. Lance’s personal arc about growing into the paladin role and becoming a selfless person who puts the team before his own desire for glory once again occurs independently of Allura, with little to no interaction, and even fewer emotional high points between them, in the entire first half of the show.

For both of these characters, their “real emotional energy”--their tension both positive and negative--occurs with other characters. The “believability” and energy of this ship is diminished by the fact that it simply isn’t the most well-written of character pairs in the series. The romance subplot isn’t organically tied to either of their personal plot lines, and the depth of their one-on-one interactions pales in comparison to their, particularly Lance’s, interactions with other characters.

But huh... would you look at that... When a potential romantic interest came along whose interactions with Allura were both directly tied to her personal arc, her central character motivations, and her emotional high points...

Isn’t it amazing how well it was received by the fandom--despite the fact that no one was really sure whether Lotor was evil or not? Now of course, I’m not going to ignore the fact that Lotura was probably helped along by leaving Keith, Lance, and Shiro free to ship elsewhere, but I don’t think the actual chemistry in the series’ writing itself should be ignored.

There was significantly, significantly more tension and nuance to Allura and Lotor’s interactions that any of Allura’s interactions with any of the other main cast, and their interactions operated not just in a romantic capacity, but also as a vehicle for Allura’s personal character growth:

The push and pull of these two characters and their scenes together sparked change in both of them, which augmented and increased the quality of their romantic arc while also furthering both of their own individual goals as characters.

The story painted them as equals with mutual interests, a shared interest in Altean culture, both victims (at least initially) of their parents’ war, both distrusting but ultimately lonely people who were longing for connection to, in Allura’s case, what had been lost, and in Lotor’s case, what he theoretically had never been able to have (except the writers did him dirty so jk).

I just don’t think there are many people who would argue that Allurance--or Allura’s interactions with any other male character--have been written with near as much depth, engagement, and integration with her motivations as Lotor and Allura’s were. Their plot literally got more screen time one-on-one in a single seven episode season than Allura and Lance did in the 43+ other episodes...

And for the the short time that it lasted, this pairing was embraced by many fans. I might be biased because I immediately went out and followed every Lotura blog I could find, but to me it seems like it was well-liked and generally well-regarded among shippers until the colony reveal (and by many still after). I was very excited by the writing of this ship and definitely wanted something meaningful to come out of it. Part of the fandom’s immense outrage at Lotor’s reveal was, I think, linked to the fact that this ship had been so convincingly written into the series before it.

This, to me, is a perfect example of a situation in which the emotional exchange between two characters exceeds the strength and depth of their interactions with others, leading to immediate adoption and approval as a ship by the fandom. Where the real energy is, there are the shippers.

PHEW! Let me take a deep breath and come up for air. There’s a lot going on here, but boiling it down to the basic point I’m trying to make, and which I’ll address in a lot more depth in the third and final part of this: the way that a story is written profoundly affects what ships will or will not become popular with fans. Shipping isn’t an unpredictable beast that grows completely independently of its source material. The ways writers craft interactions between their characters--and the places where they invest the most and infuse the most life--are powerful tools that impact how fans view and come to love seeing characters both separately and in romantic relationships.

To that end, while there are numerous reasons slash ships are popular and continue to grow in popularity, one reason that should be considered seriously by all creative writers--fanfiction authors or aspiring original novelists--is the notion that shipping often aligns with the core of a story’s or character’s emotional energy, the pairs with the highest tension, the electric pulse of the story’s most meaningful moments. Non-canon ships of any sexuality swell to mega-popularity when fans perceive more depth and significance in the interactions of characters outside the canon pair, when the emotional work of the story is happening somewhere outside the intentional romantic plot line. Sometimes this is fine. But more often, this is a bad sign for creators--a sign that you’ve fumbled in the writing of your main romantic leads.

As writers, questions we rarely ask ourselves but often should are: “Where is the core of the tension in my story? Whose interactions are deepest and most central to the development of my main character?”

In other words: Where is the real emotional energy in my story?

In part 3 I’m going to provide one more excellent case-in-point, and then close out with a discussion of some take-aways for writers from all this that might help strengthen your romantic subplots, whatever your genre or whoever your characters.

Go on to Part 3 ->

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butchlilith · 5 years

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the show itself is just exhausting because they constantly have the characters saying and doing these weird homoerotic things and then they act like theyre straight but its not in a typical q*eerbaiting way it feels more like the writers just had no idea what they were writing and at the same time being mildly homophobic... im so sorry im just rambling idek what im saying

oh it is so exhausting. i think something that’s interesting about frasier is that there were a lot of gay writers on the show and a fair number of gay people in the cast as well. like… it wasn’t just straight people being like, “oh haha look how these men seem gay but in fact are not.” so, in that case, i feel like the writers vey much knew what they were writing, even if what they were writing was… straight characters with all the hallmarks of gay ones.

plenty of times, i’m sure there were gay jokes written by straight people. i mean, like, the main characters are straight gay people, and it’s kind of people’s jobs to write them. but i feel like for me what makes me react in the way i ultimately do (that is, i find it funny) is that… at the end of the day, we’re in on the joke in some form.

and it was, as they say, a different time. whatever you want to make of that, the environment in which frasier was created was not the one we’re in now. i think it’s hard from my perspective to see this, because… i was born in ‘98. there are just aspects of this sort of cultural moment surrounding frasier that i can’t fully understand, you know? when i look at it from the lens of someone who came of age on the internet, who was able to read about lgbt issues before i even knew that i was gay, frasier is… rough. and it’s not going to not be rough however far we turn back the clock, so to speak.

but… if i may make an emotional appeal with basis only in anecdote, the dynamic we get with martin, frasier, and niles–that’s something that has helped lgbt people. characters like niles and frasier, who experience things that gay people experience without actually being gay in the source material, give us a way to relate our own experiences to people who might not as readily watch a show about actual gay people. this is something i see even now, and i suspect that this may have been even more the case at the time of frasier’s airing, given the advancements we’ve generally made in this regard, and i suspect that it may have been something of the point. taking the traits associated with gayness, acknowledging that these are good or at the very least belonging to sympathetic characters–i think that has more potential to reach people who might not have such positive associations with gayness.

it’s up to you whether that’s enough. for me, it is. i’m still critical of the show–i’m critical of everything. but i’ve made my peace with this. when i was in my adolescence, that point at which i recognized in myself something i could not name, i used to find those episodes particularly fixated on the gayness-but-not-gayness of the characters excruciating. now, they’re some of my favorites. perhaps i have given up the cause for the sake of light entertainment. i’d like to believe not. i’d like to believe there’s an affection to it all that redeems it. i hope there is.

i could speak on this for some time. i already have. and of course, the transphobia, racism, misogyny… that’s all a little bit more difficult for me to address in such a way. but perhaps a conversation for another day, though my thoughts are likely related to some of the ideas i’ve presented here. my response is getting far more rambling than your initial message, and i don’t wish to keep you as i talk about things you never even mentioned.

#asks #anonymous #i'm not quite mitski-tier Writing This At Three A.M. but it is late so if this is incoherent i'm sorry #just know that whatever discussion post i write for my medieval course will be just asbad

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jusadode-blog · 5 years

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Absolutely post your loneliness essay (if you haven't already and I just missed it) I'd love to read it!

Anon, sorry it took me like a day and a half to respond, but here’s the essay! It’s about three or four pages long single-spaced in 12pt font, so it’s probably closer to five pages in total.

It’s not a perfect paper, but like I had this major revelation in therapy while discussing gay loneliness and issues in the LGBT+ community as a whole versus strictly gay issues. I kind of bounce around a lot and repeat myself, but I think majority of the points get across.

Thanks for dropping in Anon, I hope you enjoy!

CW’S: Aids mention, E.D. mention, and a LOT of discussion of hyper sexuality.

Okay,so we always use the joke-term “useless lesbian” because it’sstereotyped that lesbians haven’t been socialized to recognizeflirting due to internalized lesbophobia and similar stuff, and yetlesbians are far more likely to be able to maintain longer, and ormore romantic relationships than gay men especially during youngeryears (20’s) due to the fact gay culture is more aligned withhyper sexuality thanks to the lack of romantic socialization andgeneral hyper-masculizing culture of gay men. If in a city, Lesbianscan find older lesbians in their community and sort of have aninspiration to look to, whereas gay men almost never have an elder tolook towards (thanks to AIDs) and if they are often at odds sinceelder gay men and young gay men often end up battling because thecultural differences. Elder gay men know the value of community aftersurviving the epidemic, whereas younger gay men often simply have“friend groups”, and one night stands, as younger gays havealmost no idea what a future, wedding, marriage, or even theirelderly life could be due to simply never seeing their selves in sucha position. Younger gays often also tend to pick more hypersexualizedplaces for their social needs and community, which furthers issuesespecially as they age out of their twenties and still have notdeveloped romantic socialization. This leads to the issue where mostgays end up focusing so heavily on being sexually attractive, thatthey end up trying to find forms of masculinity in it linked towardsheterosexual masculinity.

This is why you’ll see shit on grindr like “no fats, noflamers” and shit because gay male culture is so focused on tryingto pass as having some form of hetero-passing form of masculinity(generally the sexual aspects, but also many other things) that we’reforcing ourselves to dehumanize our partners (both real andphotographic) into their most basic sexual elements. This is why gayerotica (not porn, but generally sexual photos, pinups, or gif sets)often slices up a photo of a man to just be torso and thighs,whereas lesbian erotica (not made for straight people that is) oftenfocuses on kissing and caressing. It’s the “male eye” but gay,which has the side effect of causing high levels of body dysmorphiaand E.D’s. in gay men, as well as causes major prejudice,isolation, and sometimes blatantly develops into full-on internalizedhomophobia and even blatant homophobia at times. I shit you not I’veknown at least three gay men who were against gay marriage. Theytried to claim that they didn’t need it and it was just ‘theiropinion’, and I’m sitting here like Dylan (fake name), look, Iget you just wanna blow strangers in the bathroom cause that’s yourkink, but when you just state that as a gay person you don’t wantgay marriage, the conservatives that would bluntly kill you thefirst chance they get will use you as a tool to attack the gays whowant to be married.

And sure, the lesbian community isn’t squeaky clean itself, butthe focus of lesbian loneliness is entirely different from gayloneliness. Lesbians are lonely because they fear reaching out topartners at all, often trying to carefully maneuver between womensspaces as a non-threatening person due to the heavy stereotype of the“predatory lesbian”, whereas gay men are lonely because we’reconstantly grasping at any individual who’ll have us for a night,fulfilling only momentary needs and ultimately hypersexualizingourselves for quick consumption. Gay men try to empower their selvesthrough their sexuality and their sexualism, but ultimately thisleads to them to being alone and separated from the rest of thecommunity who focus on more romantic or identity-based aspects oftheir sexuality (As well as gay empowerment through sexualism is aslippery slope to misogyny, transphobia, and frequently racist). Butthis shit ain’t even just white-gay culture, it’s a thing a shitton of gay men go through regardless of ethnicity [however, there areprobably major differences between white-gay hypersexualization andgay-poc hypersexualization, but I’m frankly not educated enough toreally speak on that]. This has larger issues than just within thegay community then, because it affects other sexual and genderidentities by making popular LGBT+ environments hypersexual, whichhas been especially notable for causing issues with LGBT+ youth whocannot begin to join the community due to such until they’re 21.Since gay men are the most visible to the straight community, thehypersexualization that gay males empower their selves with become astereotype for all the LGBT+ community, followed up by within the gaycommunity once someone is not sexual-enough they are often outcastedor questioned on their queerness.

The thing is though, it’s not wrong to be sexual, nor is itwrong to be empowered by your sexualism, but it leaves many menshallow to their partners, and feeling alone which is the problemwhich becomes a cycle. You’re lonely, you swipe, you fuck, youleave, and you’re lonely again so you swipe again. Luckily most gaymen develop social skills to make friends despite this, and caneventually learn to have proper healthy relationships and a healthyrelationship with sexualism, but in the age of social media andtechnology where already most friendships are diluted it’s going tobecome far more challenging for gay men to function as sociallycompetent individuals. We’re often suffering from a hellish mix oftoxic masculinity and the battle for gay pride, and both of thesethings are at constant odds with each other due to gay masculinityhaving entirely different behaviors associated with it than heteromasculinity. You can be a hetero masculine individual without beingtoxic( look at Terry Crews) whereas you can still be a gay masculineindividual while being incredibly toxic (Shane Dawson is the onlyperson I can think of right now with a lot of toxic gay masculinitytraits, but he’s bisexual so his experience isn’t entirely thesame, but he’s still a good point of reference.). There’s countless of gay men who aren’t toxic, but it seems like the only ones who make it on TV or as Youtube stars are.

And this leaves us both at constant odds with ourselves, and ourcommunity. Gay men develop depression, sex addiction, drugdependence, E.D’s, body dysmorphia, and tons of other horrible shitbecause we’re constantly trying to objectify ourselves while stillgrasping onto the very same masculinity which almost got us to killourselves in our childhoods. We want to be proud of who we are, andmost of the time we can be, but we also want to be recognized asmen™, and we have trouble accepting that those two things justcan’t work together. Most gay men end up able to deal with itenough to find a long-term partner, to get married, and othertraditional senses of a happy and healthy romantic relationship, butwe have it so much more delayed than lesbians due to our lack ofromantic socialization. Men in general, regardless of sexuality, haveterrible romantic socialization heavily linked to toxic masculinityand hypersexualism, but gay men end up affecting the whole queercommunity with this, despite often adopting GNC behaviors in one wayor another. Gay men experience gender and gender roles entirelydifferent than hetero men, but often still try to find means toaccommodate it. Lesbians who experience this weird dissonance oftencan speak out about their issues with gender related directly tobeing a lesbian, as womanhood is often so heavily bent on traditionalhetero women romantic developments, but for some gay men even whenwe’re in full drag and using a different set of pronouns we’reoften still battling for masculinity. Most drag queens use drag as amethod to break out from gender for a short bit and to just expresssome aspect of their self they enjoy, they often are truly empoweredby this and can find communities and friends though it, and that’sthe sort of weird difference between GNC lesbians and GNC gays. GNClesbians can always be GNC, whereas GNC men are expected to wipe offtheir face eventually (both metaphorically and literally).

It’s not hopeless though, as larger communities are built andgay men learn at younger ages they can find different forms ofmasculinity in healthier methods, as well as they don’t need tosexualize their self to be gay and proud. Movies such as Love Simonwill help future generations know some aspects of at leastdreaming of romance, which will allow them to speak up and allowtheir community to humor such dreams. This will allow them to developromantic languages earlier on, which will then help them findhappier, healthier relationships, and ultimately normalize queerromances in more visible methods. I live for the day that I see gaymen holding hands and kissing each other softly, rather than oneslapping the other on the ass and giving a wink, as even though thatis a pretty happy thought the romance there is not one most gay menwill be able to facilitate throughout their life. The constant needfor sexualism in gay romances is isolating to non hyper-sexual gays, andfor those trying to imagine a romantic future. Young gay childrenneed to see older gays in calm, tender moments, such as cuddling,caressing, and doing silly daily things such as cooking or eatingwithout the constant need of sexualism. I have never in my life seentwo gay men hold each others hands casually, and that really messesme up when I try to imagine my future. It’s a sort of weirdsituation where it seems like most gay men are living a “die young”life style since they can’t envision a future and want to have asmuch fun as possible, but then then they get to the “future” it’ssomething similar to being lost, and it’s almost as if everyphysical action I’ve seen between a gay couple has to have sexualundertones, and that’s not healthy for young gays to see that asthe only means of a “romantic” future. You can’t build arelationship off sex alone, and that’s the thing that’s tearingapart a lot of the gay community as we’re just so alone and sodesperate but we just don’t have the ability to develop furtherrelationships. Some of us will be fine without that, sexualempowerment through sexualism is still a valid thing for many people,but it’s not the answer for all. We need gay romance, not gay porn.[I won’t even begin to start on bury your gays troupes]

Now for the record, this is not meant to completely explain orapply to more complex situations such as homoromantic asexuals orhomosexual aromantics, or trans/nonbinary individuals, as those comewith a lot more situations which arise. As a trans-gay man, myexperience with gay loneliness is even more complicated as I am evenfurther isolated from the community and have a higher-risk ofdeveloping toxic ideas of masculinity. This post does not even beginto touch on the issues of bisexuals, pansexuals, or aroaces, as theyhave different cultures than gay or lesbian cultures despiteoverlapping heavily on many parts. There are also no considerations for job-oriented dreams, or experience-related dreams (I.E. traveling the world, moving, etc.) There is no consideration for polyamorous individuals as that get’s WAY to complicated on all sides. This is also all my personalobservation and understanding from what I’ve seen in both real andonline communities (both LGBT+ in it’s entirety and gay), and whatI’ve heard from other guys in similar circumstances. My experienceis still different than this, but I can definitively feel gayloneliness as a separate aspect from trans loneliness or trans-mascgay loneliness. I can’t even imagine myself with a happy future ifI were a cis gay male, removing all my other issues such as trauma. Fortunately, I am able to recognize a lot of my dependence on sexualism but it’s so hard to imagine positive situations separated from sex. I’ve managed to foster some dreams thankfully, and I’m unlearning hyper sexualism, but for many other gay guys they can’t even do that. If you can’t imagine a perfect date without imagining sex attached to it, there’s something a bit concerning there.

Also a major thing: This is not meant to shame individuals for enjoying casual sex. Casual sex is fun and dandy, this is meant to raise awareness that the gay community is extremely focused on casual sex over romantic developments. The media, the culture, everything we’ve built seems to be with extreme emphasis on sex, which leaves young gays isolated from the community, and distorts our ability to function romantically in the future as adults.

#ask #asks #anon ask #anonymous ask #gay loneliness essay

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joannalannister · 6 years

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@kahlanhbic submitted:

Do you think if Joanna would have lived and been around to raise Cersei properly do you think Cersei would have turned out any different?

Probably.

MISOGYNY

The Cersei we know in the books is very misogynistic. Part of that is Westerosi culture, part is the influence of Tywin and his own violent aggression against various women, and part is Cersei’s own self-loathing, but I think another part – a big part – is her mother dying. I think when Cersei was a very young child, her parents seemed as constant as the stars, “eternal as Casterly Rock.” Joanna perhaps even more so than Tywin, because Tywin was “often away” in King’s Landing. Think what they must have looked like to tiny Cersei. Beautiful, tall, powerful, towering over her like gods. (“Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children.” –Thackeray)

(It is my headcanon that the ancient golden statues of the Seven in the small sept at Casterly Rock have a very Lannister “look” and when bb!Cersei prayed to the Mother, she prayed to her own mother, because they were one and the same to her, even with her mother right beside her.)

But then Joanna died, and I think that profoundly influenced how Cersei views women. To Cersei, the female body is something weak and soft and, above all, fallible. (To be fair, the incidents that would make Cersei hate her body started before Joanna died, but I think Joanna’s death cemented Cersei’s misogyny and self-hatred.) Women are weak, according to Cersei. They are “Vapid, weepy creatures, always telling tales,” treacherous, never to be trusted. (Since she was ten, Cersei has never trusted “anyone but Jaime”.)

(EDIT to add: Contrast Tywin’s body in AGOT -- “hard as a man of twenty” -- with Cersei’s body in ADWD. Men’s (able) bodies are the long-lasting, celebrated ideal, while women’s bodies are a source of shame, a source of betrayal.)

Cersei also has this idea that she’s playing a zero-sum game; if another woman gains, Cersei loses, in her mind. For example, Margaery being queen diminishes Cersei’s own queenly status. Even before Cersei visited the maegi and heard the YMBQ prophecy, Cersei has feared that other women would take from her. They would take Jaime, they would take Rhaegar, they would take her position. Other women would take and take and take, she feared. (It’s what makes her so jealous and afraid of Sansa, Margaery, soon perhaps Arianne. Even the ghost of the “wolf girl” Lyanna haunts her.)

If Joanna had lived, I don’t think Cersei would have quite as terrible views on women. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Joanna being alive would be wash away all of Cersei’s misogyny, Westeros being Westeros. I think Joanna absolutely loathed women like Ellyn Tarbeck and Tytos’s mistresses, and I don’t think she would have liked Tysha at all. So there would have still been a lot of negativity toward women. But with Joanna alive, I think Cersei would have seen some female positivity to counterbalance all this negativity.

(In the text, we see some glimpses of Cersei’s relationship with Genna, but – and this is just my headcanon! because grrm doesn’t delve into female relationships!!! including this one!!!! – I don’t feel like Cersei had the same close relationship with Genna that she might have had with her mother.)

***

Tangent:

Sure, Genna prepped Cersei for the tourney (likely at Tywin’s wishes, because Tywin can’t very well do that himself, can he) and afterwards Genna promised that Tywin would find someone better for Cersei (because Genna has massive faith in Tywin and was extremely loyal to him), and then when Tywin sent a raven that Cersei should come to court, Genna, in Tywin’s absence, explained to her distraught teenage niece what was going on and prepped her for it. So idk, the things Genna did with Cersei always seemed to me like … idk, like Genna was being a female!Kevan, acting on Tywin’s behalf, out of loyalty to Tywin. So these three instances, to me, seemed more about Tywin & Genna, and how they operated together (or apart, as the case may be), rather than them being about Genna & Cersei. I think maybe a lot of people disagree with me here … but I imagine these like … ~Tywin goes up to Genna, like, “I don’t know how to parent or show emotions, and women/girls are … you know … so please go do something with my daughter. Brush her hair or. Something.” and Genna’s like, “Anything for you, Tywin!”~ Like, she’s trying to help cover for Tywin’s massive failings as a parent, because she’s Tywin’s sister and House Lannister is ride or die. I had a similar headcanon about Gerion playing with Jaime, because Tywin never knew how to play.

***

… where was I … female positivity to counterbalance all the negativity … I think Joanna had many positive relationships with various ladies at Casterly Rock. She was obviously good friends with the Unnamed Princess of Dorne. I think Joanna and Genna were good friends. So I don’t think Cersei would have felt quite so hateful toward other women, and toward herself, if she’d had Joanna there to be a positive female role model.

(However, I imagine Joanna had various problems herself, but I think she would hide those problems from Cersei as best she could, so let’s set those aside for now. I feel like everyone thinks I’m weird when I suggest that Joanna had her own problems, but idk how anyone can think living with Tywin was easy. For anyone. House Lannister is where life goes to be twisted in darkness; just ask that strange weirwood, “choking out all other growth”.)

RELATIONSHIP WITH JAIME

I don’t think Cersei’s relationship with Jaime would have been allowed to continue, had Joanna survived. I still think that Joanna and Tywin both intended that Cersei marry Rhaegar, given that that plan was set in motion before Joanna died. I think it was wishful thinking on the part of the Unnamed Princess of Dorne that Cersei/Oberyn would happen, and I don’t think it was ever going to go through, but I do think that the betrothal of Jaime to Princess Elia would have gone through. (See: #jaime x elia)

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I think it could go either way in terms of which child leaves CR after Tyrion is born. If Joanna is very persuasive, Jaime gets fostered in Sunspear with the Martells. Crakehall, otherwise, just sooner than in the OTL.

But I think there’s an interesting alternative to fostering Jaime, one that would separate the twins without Joanna angering Tywin. When Joanna is well enough to travel, I think she and Cersei could spend the rest of the winter in Sunspear. Joanna and the Unnamed Princess were BFFs, after all, and it’s important for Joanna to keep a close eye on Cersei, to prepare her to be a queen. Not a formal fostering in Sunspear, because I honestly think Tywin is too much of a dick, but, like, an extended vacation in the sunshine.

(Wow I think I just solved one problem in my fanfic, thinking about it while typing this out. Cool.)

And with Elia already taken, I don’t think Aerys can find a wife for Rhaegar, which opens up all sorts of possibilities, but I’m not too interested in most of those. If … something … happens to Aerys, I think Cersei/Rhaegar is a strong possibility in this AU.

Anyways, I don’t think Jaime/Cersei is quite as much of a thing in this AU. Still possible, but less likely. I don’t think Jaime or Cersei need it to be as much of a thing in this AU.

I think one of the reasons Jaime and Cersei turned to each other in canon – aside from Tywin’s belief in Lannister superiority – is that they were emotionally starving after Joanna’s death, and they sought comfort in each other. (This almost makes me think of the twincest as, like, emotional cannibalism. Hmmm. Gonna think more on that one.) With Tywin turning in on himself, Jaime and Cersei are left to grieve all alone, trying to navigate this massive trauma all by themselves, which I kinda think pushed them into each other’s arms.

But if Joanna survives, Jaime and Cersei not only don’t have to deal with this trauma, they also have a mother to love them and show them affection.

And the Tywin in this AU isn’t quite the man we know; if Tywin’s 100% cyborg in canon, maybe in this Joanna Lives AU he’s only 95% cyborg, so that’s 5% more fatherly affection than the twins saw in canon. Has to be statistically significant, right? With Joanna alive, Tywin is probably more willing to show emotion, more willing to at least try to be human.

So I don’t think Jaime and Cersei are as emotionally dependent on each other in this AU. Which means I don’t think Jaime and Cersei first have sex at about 13. (That time in King’s Landing when Jaime decided he didn’t need Casterly Rock was probably not the first time Jaime and Cersei had sex in the OTL.) Whether they have sex later in life is an interesting question to me, but that’s getting into too many variables, so I’ll leave that off.

So yeah, I think the twincest is less likely. Not impossible, because there’s a lot of underlying Lannister ideology motivating the twincest, but less likely than in the OTL. The outcome of the Rebellion is a big question here, and that’s going to affect twincest, but again, too many variables that aren’t very interesting to me.

CERSEI AND EMOTIONS

I think being raised with Tywin’s ideology fucks a person up no matter what, so I think Cersei still has some issues, regardless of whether Joanna lives or dies.

For example, shortly after Joanna died, Tywin made this pronouncement in Cersei’s hearing: “You cannot eat love, nor buy a horse with it, nor warm your halls on a cold night" (AFFC). Tywin’s fascist masculinity has no place for love; it was a weakness in him that made him smile and even laugh, “not once, but upon three separate occasions!” So, after Joanna died, Tywin recognized this weakness in himself and crushed it as mercilessly as Castamere, until there was “naught but stone at the heart of Casterly Rock.” Unlike his father Tytos, Tywin was not one to let his “heart burst” (literally or metaphorically) with any sort of positive emotion.

In the OTL, Cersei internalized all of Tywin’s fucked up views on love, to the point where she calls love a “disease” (ACOK, Sansa IV) and a “poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same.“ Tywin’s whole worldview that Cersei adopted has fucked Cersei up, it’s completely fucked up her ability to form meaningful connections with other people so that “It had never been any good with anyone but Jaime”. She views her children as extensions of the self, and her relationship with Jaime is narcissistic, “one person in two bodies”. (I love Jaime/Cersei with my entire being, but this ship is deliciously fucked up. Everyone go follow my twincest sideblog.)

Anger is the only emotion fascist masculinity truly allows, so after Joff’s death, after Tywin’s death, we see this barely controlled rage in Cersei, because she doesn’t know how else to react. Anything less than a display of violence is weakness, and weakness ill befits a Lannister. (Even just after Joanna’s death, what we see from Cersei is violence, when she sexually abuses baby!Tyrion.)

Now, how do I want to say this? I don’t think that Joanna was immune to House Lannister’s fascist masculinity culture, but I don’t think Cersei would have been as emotionally fucked up if Joanna had lived. Like, Cersei is still going to be raised thinking that Lannisters are superior human beings, there’s still going to be a significant lack of empathy / compassion, she’s going to be arrogant, privileged, Lannister.

But I don’t think it’s going to be as extreme, like, I don’t think you’re going to get Cersei viewing love as a poison. I think Cersei would be better able to express herself emotionally, in a healthy manner. I also think Cersei would be able to connect with (noble)people better. Basically, slightly better adjusted in society.

Beyond that…

If Joanna lives, in what ways does A/erys continue to harass her to get at Tywin and House Lannister? And how do these things affect Cersei?

What happens in Robert’s Rebellion?

Who does Cersei marry?

What is Jaime and Elia’s relationship like?

What about the prophecy? Does it still exist? Does Cersei still go and hear it? Does she still murder Melara?

Joanna’s death was undoubtedly significant to Cersei’s development, but so many other things – some of which have nothing to do with Joanna – have shaped who Cersei is. We can’t just pin it all down to this one thing in Cersei’s childhood.

Also…

To simplify this scenario, I’ve kind of been assuming here that Joanna doesn’t do anything, um, damaging to Cersei. But what if that’s not the case? I kind of think Tywin was like, “OK, Cersei’s gonna marry Rhaegar. See ya in a few years, Cersei,” while I can imagine Joanna being a lot more, um, helicoptering. “Cersei, you have to do this, you have to do that, stand up straight, sit still, smile, no pressure but the well being of House Lannister depends on this.” I don’t think Cersei would necessarily be damaged the same ways she was in canon, but what about the damage Joanna herself would inflict, even unintentionally?

And what of Joanna herself? No one but @cosmonauthill seems to like my Joanna-Lives-But-Suicide headcanon, even tho House Lannister is overwhelmingly self-destructive in canon. *pouts*

So there’s a lot of factors to think about here.

I don’t know if I’ve addressed everything you wanted me to address because this is such a broad topic, but if there was something specific you had in mind for this AU that I didn’t touch on, just send me an ask! I also have a #joanna lives AU tag, if you want to explore more.

Finally, I will just leave you with this fanfic by lilith-morgana because it is one of my favorites.

#kahlanhbic #joanna lannister #cersei lannister #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #au questions #joanna lives au #the only au i actually like #i dont think anyone's ever asked me about cersei in a joanna lives au before?? or at least it's not in the tag #this is strange because i thought i have dealt with joanna+cersei au questions?? but apparently not #joanna meta #lannister thoughts #jaime x cersei #genna lannister #jaime x elia #fascist masculinity in asoiaf #replies #submission

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colorisbyshe · 6 years

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as a trans person i want to thank you for acknowledging that some non-binary people who identify closer to their assigned at birth gender may not face all the same privileges as other trans people and even have some privileges. i support non-binary people but there have really been times some non-binary people who identify closer to their assigned at birth gender have spoken over me on trans issues that honestly, don't really affect them near as much as me if at all, and it feels super shitty.

I used to sort of fall into that and it’s really just a way to avoid culpability. Like, I’m not saying everyone is identifying as nb to avoid culpability but more that SOME nb people pretend to be more oppressed/victimized than they actually are to avoid the ways they might have taken part in transphobia themselves.

Similarly, some trans men do this by pretending like TERFs target them too, to avoid being introspective in their own role in transmisogyny.

It’s super shitty. Very weak minded. And all together unnecessary.

Nonbinary people’s gender can be real AND also exist on a sliding scale between and around cisness and transness which also means our privilege (and oppression) works on a sliding scale too. I know a lot of people get caught up in the trap that “The more oppressed I am, the better a person I am (or at least the less responsible I am for being a potentially bad person) and the more obscure my identity, the more oppressed I am” but that’s… just not how the world works.

Nonbinary and trans identities are intertwined vines that you hurt when you try to un-tangle them but they still can exist as separate vines with their own separate growths and whatever else. I don’t get how someone is less valid as a nonbinary person by acknowledging that that our experience isn’t always the “trans” experience–isn't’ that the point of being nonbinary, to acknowledge the fact that our experiences aren’t binary? Or clean cut. Or monolithic?

It’s really weird occupying the in between space of nonbinary and bisexual and I get that it’s isolating because even with other nonbinary/bisexual people you’re not going to necessarily have relatable experiences (like I can not relate to trans masc nb people very much besides ‘lmao… gender is weird” nor can I really relate to bisexual men), which means you’re alienated from “binary” or “mono” (ugh, sorry for using tha tterm) people AND potentially other nonbianry and bisexual people!

Which means it becomes a balancing act of “This is where we’re the same” and “This is where we’re different.” But… that’s just being human. Among every identity there is more difference within than between them–that is to say no one identity is some homogeneous monolith, even for very binary identities. You gotta just acknowledge that and then… deal with it.

Honesty and culpability go hand in hand, so y’unno… I eagerly await when other nb people start recognizing that some of us benefit from our cis-tangent identities. No, that doesn’t make us Cis or Cis Lite but it does mean our dynamics with cis and trans people is complicated. And that’s okay.

Gender is fake and arbitrary but also has very real consequences and strict enforcement. Acknowledging how you are actually affected in society with honesty and self awareness will only ever be a good thing and for your own benefit.

Like… when I acknowledge I am woman-aligned, I’m very much acknowledging misogyny’s affect on me and how I am received by society, which gives me the tools to dismantle the system(s) most holding me down.

I’m chill with that. I don’t get why other people aren’t besides not wanting to recognize some Truths in their lives lmao.

#Anonymous #nb discourse

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motherboxing · 6 years

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general abuse tw, this is about peer bullying

Hmmm, weird how every time I think about my adolescence I get the sense that I was/am just a freak, which is obviously fake and a defensive reaction that keeps me from empathizing with other peoples’ experiences of like childhood/adolescent/early adulthood trauma and also addressing things like “how the extremely vicious peer bullying I experienced has affected my overall sense of security in my relationships with friends and peers today, which is to say that I have none sense of security with regards to that and any time I make a friend no matter how much we get along I am always constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop”, yet even as I acknowledge this and know that the kind of peer bullying I experienced is often driven by systemic factors and therefor was not a unique experience, I find myself rolling my eyes when other people say they were bullied and it was traumatic because on some dumbass shitty skeleton brain level I still feel like all of that only happened to me because I was just uniquely hateable in this anomalous way that had nothing to do with any systemic factors or bigotry or etc at play and therefor that experience was not being recreated at literally every fucking school in every district in every town since the dawn of the very concept of a public education system!!! It’s almost like as a society our tendency to downplay how peer bullying can actually be super traumatizing because it’s just “kids being mean” to other kids and we all just assume that, I don’t know, constant physical, emotional, and often sexual abuse is untraumatizing as long as it’s done by people your age?! and that has this fucked up and isolating effect on the people who experience that which sometimes actively discourages people from recognizing how systemic injustice (like homophobia, racism, ableism, misogyny, etc) can be traumatizing, which then prevents people from forming meaningful bonds of solidarity based on different and shared experiences of harm... like, you know, it’s almost like intstilling a sense of guilt and shame in someone about their own mistreatment fundamentally compromises their ability to be compassionate in the face of other peoples’ mistreatment, and getting past that takes self-reflection and work.

Fucked up if you think about it!

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dragimal · 6 years

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How different are the crybaby characters compared to the characters in the manga? I haven't been able to watch it since I only have hulu and amazon prime.

(if u ever wanna watch it I could maybe try to set up a rabb.it for anyone interested and mooch my roommate’s netflix for a few viewing events. big maybe tho, I haven’t had a lot of personal time lately, and I don’t see that changing soon..)

for my own convenience I’m gonna try to do a compare/contrast list (+ personal “ideal” versions b/c why not). also, I must repeat my disclaimer that it’s been a minute since I read the og manga so some details may be warped by my memory

Ryo:

OG pre-Satan:

environmentalist, conspiracy theorist, flips wildly between completely neutral/dead-pan and hysterical (which could be for any emotion– he could be hysterically happy, hysterically mad, etc.). he’s not the best strategist and often makes snap decisions (ex– doesn’t super give a shit abt blowing his cover, as long as he can make a clean/quick getaway). his “sacrifice the few for the many” approach is questionable, but ultimately logical in a battle for the survival of humanity as a whole. more likely to seriously injure than outright murder people. pretty desperate to keep Akira by his side. he’s basically the right image below

OG post-Satan:

they actually face their mistakes and realize that by trying to wipe out humans, they turned into a version of the God they opposed, ultimately trying to wipe out a whole race of beings that deserve to live as much as anyone else, despite their faults. this is ultimately a lesson on Satan’s hubris, and lends to a thematically satisfying (and soul-crushing) ending

(x)

Crybaby pre-Satan:

basically cool/collected throughout, with very few moments where he loses his cool (or has much emotion at all, really). seems like he knows what he’s doing most of the time, and most of his decisions seem to have a far-reaching goal that was planned ahead. indiscriminately kills everyone who poses even the slightest threat to his plans, despite the fact that his plans are supposedly for the sake of humanity. doesn’t seem super attached to Akira, beyond using Akira for his goals. basically the left image above

Crybaby post-Satan:

Akira apparently taught Satan that love exists and is good? idk, the whole point of the OG plot was that Satan’s love of the demons pushed them to hate humanity. I think this is actually the main structural change that ruins the entire demon/Satan-revenge arc of Crybaby irreparably, b/c basically everything falls apart if Satan doesn’t feel any love or even obligation to the demons. like, if Satan doesn’t love demons already, then what’s even the point? as can be seen by the lack of cohesion/logic in anything Satan or their lackeys do, Crybaby clearly doesn’t know either. it’s also not a super effective approach when u can’t actually feel the love Satan/Ryo apparently has for Akira, and have to have it spelled out in the last 5 minutes of the series :/

Ideal Ryo:

OG Ryo, in all respects (aesthetics, personality, etc.). tho I do like Crybaby’s puffy white coat, that’s 100% fashion-disaster OG Ryo

Akira:

OG pre-Amon:

very skittish– will avoid confrontation as much as possible, but will still stick around to protect those he cares abt, even if he’s scared shitless. wary of weird stories abt demons, and rightfully questions their validity

OG post-Amon:

(edited w/ thessaliah’s input)

fiercely protective of humans until he realizes the atrocities they’re committing against themselves and devilmen, at which point he completely denounces humanity. thus, shows a strong sense of justice over forgiveness

Crybaby pre-Amon:

obliviously cheerful and trusting– I’m legitimately not sure if he’s actually brave or just too dense to recognize danger as it comes. doesn’t question weird stories abt demons, and is ready to step right into the frying pan w/ barely an ounce of information beforehand

Crybaby post-Amon:

(edited w/ thessaliah’s input)

cries a lot, which I think is a nice visual metaphor for his inner humanity. much more forgiving of humanity, even when he sees humans at their worst.

Ideal Akira:

personality-wise, I’d have to say OG, particularly for pre-Amon. while Crybaby pre-Amon is kinda cute in his obliviousness, I prefer the Akira who will knowingly jump into danger for those he loves, despite how scared he is. + I was so mad when Crybaby Akira didn’t question ANYTHING abt Ryo’s demonic explanations, like wtf dude u just swallowed that shit hook line and sinker, huh?

on reflection, I also prefer OG post-Amon, b/c I think it’s a lot more soul-crushing to see this ~largely~ idealistic character finally finally get worn down to the point of just giving up on those he was trying to protect. Crybaby’s overly-idealistic approach isn’t necessarily bad, but I do think it smooths out Akira’s rough edges a bit too much for my liking. tho Crybaby def has a leg-up thematically when it comes to the crying, I love that so much

aesthetically I could go for either, but I think I’d ideally love the look of everything Crybaby Akira + OG sideburns/mullet lmfao

Miki:

OG:

prideful as a personality trait, thus takes any slight as a personal offense. unashamed, but simultaneously defensive of her abilities (namely has some internalized misogyny in the beginning, which she eventually overcomes). impulsive and somewhat socially dense, which leads her to being unintentionally harsh in situations where she thinks she’s trying to enact “tough love”. could be read as (obnoxiously) selfish in situations where she wants Akira to fit her standards, and doesn’t question his changed state (and more importantly, doesn’t miss the ‘old Akira’)

Crybaby:

proud of her accomplishments, but not necessarily defensive of her position– she’s secure enough in her abilities to not feel threatened. thoughtful of those around her and what they may be going through. possibly too trusting, considering the whole situation w/ her agent. actually seems aware and somewhat wary of Akira’s changed state, even if she does like it

Ideal Miki:

this one’s tough b/c as much as I hate OG Miki and Akira’s relationship, there are certain negative traits that I think give OG Miki a more dynamic character than Crybaby. like OG’s socially dense, unintentionally harsh approach is p interesting to see, esp if it’s highlighted as a point of growth for her. of course, I want to completely trash the way OG Miki treats Akira in terms of throwing him into dangerous situations and harshly criticizing his pre-Amon character, but I wouldn’t necessarily mind seeing her sometimes harshly criticize Akira’s decisions in a way that is clearly framed as her trying to help Akira (even if it isn’t necessarily the most ideal approach). I also love OG Miki’s bubbly, unashamed personality, which is a gr8 contrast to her harsh approach to social situations

as for Crybaby, I fuckin ADORE Miki’s relationship w/ Miko, which I think only works the way it does b/c Crybaby Miki is securely proud, not defensively prideful like OG. plus, OG Miki’s defensive pride is p damn annoying to me, ESPECIALLY her internalized misogyny, god I want that completely trashed. yeah, OG eventually grows past the misogyny, but it feels less like satisfying character development, and more like a relief, like, “oh thank god she ain’t pullin’ that shit anymore”

I suppose, given all this, my ideal Miki is one that combines OG’s social harshness/denseness (to a logical/understandable degree), bubbly temperament, and impulsiveness, with Crybaby’s secure pride in her abilities and actual physical prowess (+ Crybaby’s love of cats, which is adorable and relatable)

Miko:

OG:

tbh I had to look her up again b/c I completely forgot her arc/personality. idk if that’s on her actually being a boring character, or if it’s just the fact that her arc was dropped in the middle of all the other wild bullshit of the main plot wayyyy at the end of the series

anyways, she’s a former delinquent trying to reform herself, but her old gang/posse won’t leave her alone, and she’s all stressed out over being half-demon. I don’t remember her personality necessarily being affected by the demon, which is kinda odd. also her demon form is some tiddy/pussy-volcano ridiculousness

Crybaby:

it’s worth noting that the actual, literal OG Miko makes a very brief appearance in Crybaby as one of the half-demon test subjects held captive by scientists– volcano-tits and all. personally, I count this as OG Miko’s actual Crybaby counterpart, but for the sake of comparing important characters, I’ll be comparing OG Miko to main Crybaby Miko since they share a name and an actual arc in each respective series

Crybaby Miko is insecure and wants so very badly to prove herself to others, especially Miki. this is especially potent considering Miko’s actual name is Miki, but she’s forced to stick with Miko as a name b/c Miki’s popularity/prowess overshadows any other potential Miki. post-demon, this jealousy manifests itself as an insatiable competitive streak, as Miko now has the ability to not only reach Miki, but surpass her level. Miko eventually realizes that at least part of her insecurity was misplaced affection for Miki. thus, part of Miko’s desire to be on the same playing field as Miki was so she could feel worthy of potentially dating her. also, Miko’s demon form is some kinda spider creature

Ideal Miko:

just b/c of her personal/thematic connection to Miki, I’d have to vote Crybaby Miko for almost all traits. I rly love her arc in Crybaby, and she’s a lot more personally connected to the plot than OG Miko is (considering OG Miko appears super late in the game, and barely interacts w/ Devilman).

though I do like the idea of a former delinquent trying to reform herself– it might be kinda interesting to integrate that into Crybaby Miko. maybe have her be a delinquent before she met Miki (I can’t remember how long they knew each other in Crybaby, but I’m thinking maybe have Miko be a middle school delinquent, then a reformed high-schooler). it might be especially interesting to see how Miko struggles to restrain a delinquent side that was used to getting what she wanted, then have it all fall apart when she’s merged with a demon

Crybaby Miko is also more interesting aesthetically, in all her forms (human, devilman, and demon). I’m esp super gay for her devilman form, while her full-demon form is such a huge improvement on tiddy-volcanoes. I do like OG’s hat tho, I wish Crybaby could have OG’s hat

Bullies/Rappers:

OG:

a little fuzzy on the details of these guys as well, but I mostly remember their overall arc

in the OG, these guys are straight-up bullies/delinquents, and aren’t there to fuck around. at first, they’re extremely aggressive towards Akira and Miki, and straight-up threaten to rape Miki. later on, once Akira gains their respect (and the world starts goin to shit), they become reliable, rough-around-the-edges friends, and try to protect Akira and Miki as much as they can

Crybaby:

these guys seem like harmless, disenfranchised rappers. they could be read as dangerous when they first approach Miki, but I honestly don’t think they would have done anything even if Ryo hadn’t intervened– I think they were just trying to scare her. Kukun in particular plays a significant role in Miko’s arc (however brief). they all rap about the hardships and injustices of society in a way that fits p well w/ the plot

Ideal bullies:

I rly love the OG bullies for how they go from aggressively antagonistic to aggressively protective of Akira and Miki. however, I rly hate exactly how aggressive they start out (namely, their willingness to straight-up rape Miki), which kinda sours their connection to Akira/Miki later on. it’s, uh, hard to forget something as serious as that, even when the ppl in question do seem to have changed some

as for Crybaby, I rly love how the rappers are a misfit group that makes comments abt society at large as the story progresses. + the rapping itself is p damn entertaining. I also, of course, adore Kukun’s relationship w/ Miko

it’s hard to say which I like more, but I’d def have to cut legitimate rape threats from the OG characters to truly appreciate them. as a way of merging some of their best traits, it might be interesting to see the stakes raised w/ the Crybaby rappers, and have them carry knives and make actual threats against Miki/Akira’s safety at first (again, w/o the rape threat,,), only to find out later it’s just a facade they put up for their own safety (but still won’t back down if they actually ARE up against trouble)

closing comment I guess

I think those are all the characters I feel like talking abt. I could talk abt other characters who got some significant changes (like Miki’s parents, or Akira’s parents), but I didn’t feel any particular way abt them in the OG or Crybaby, so they’re not rly worth my personal time ¯|_(ツ)_/¯

#devilman #devilman crybaby #shut up ashley

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i-feel-god-in-this-chilis · 6 years

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Thoughts from a Future Psychologist on Season 3 of Crazy Ex-Girlfriend

I have been watching Crazy Ex-Girlfriend since mid-season 2, and to say that this show felt different from the beginning is an understatement. I saw the show on Netflix and decided to start watching it without really knowing the premise other than what the title was. I expected a show that was light-hearted and a little dramatic and showed us a slightly unlikable but ultimately redeemable heroine. I was right, but just not in the way I thought I would be. From the second episode when Rebecca utters the words “exeunt pursued by a bear” to excuse herself from an awkward social situation I was hooked. The hilarious and on-the-nose musical numbers and feminist meta were simply added bonuses; however, as the story progressed I was so much more excited as a PhD candidate in Counseling Psychology to see that this was going somewhere unheard of in network television land. We were finally going to see a realistic portrayal of mental illness on television in the form of a well-written, multi-dimensional female character.

Now, here we are in season three, waiting for the penultimate game changing moment where our favorite “crazy ex” finally starts unpacking some serious childhood trauma and emotional issues. The subject of Rebecca’s diagnosis is exciting for me as a mental health professional, and while I believe that the diagnosis will lean a certain way based off of what we’ve been shown and the research that I know Rachel Bloom and Aline Brosh McKenna have done, I want to go a step further by unpacking some of the things about Rebecca’s history that we as an audience should keep in mind as we go through this journey with these characters.

1) First and foremost, there is a psychological history surrounding certain disorders being diagnosed in women and not men due to psychology’s own sordid history of misogyny and victim blaming. My personal believe is that we will see Rebecca come away with a diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder. Some of the symptoms of BPD are:

- underdeveloped self-identity

- dissociative states

- chronic feelings of emptiness

- compromised ability to recognize the feelings and needs of others

- history of unstable relationships

- anxiety, worry, and panic

- frequent mood changes

- fears of rejection and abandonment

-risky sexual behavior

- substance abuse

Sound like our Rebecca yet?

However, BPD is often diagnosed disproportionately in women. Several feminists would argue that this is due to a patriarchal history of pathologizing women’s emotional states in reaction to severe traumatic experiences. I’m not saying this is a legitimate argument against BPD, simply that it is something to keep in mind if this is Rebecca’s eventual diagnosis. This segues me into my next point.

2) Trauma affects its victims in various ways and several of the symptoms we see in BPD are also symptoms commonly seen in various trauma disorders. They’re obviously different in several aspects, but there is some overlap. Rebecca is no stranger to trauma. She has trauma from the abandonment she experienced at the hand of her father, the controlling and abusive relationship she has with her mother, and the show even hints at generational trauma that Rebecca might identify with in relation to her religious identity. Her symptomology and behaviors show us someone who is trying to cope with a traumatic history that we might have only scratched the surface of as an audience. Rebecca is not a reliable narrator and there is so much about her as a character that she keeps hidden from us as an audience because she denies it about herself.

3) Finally, we need to remind ourselves that while Rebecca’s actions (especially in the latest episode) are not excusable, she is not the only guilty party in this narrative. Just like in real life, every player in this story has done something to enable or reinforce Rebecca’s behavior at some point or another (except for maybe White Josh and Heather). Furthermore, there are a lot of things about the other characters that we still have unanswered questions to that I think will play a larger role at some point in the storyline of the show, specifically Josh. We still do not know what he was doing in New York, why he decided to move back to West Covina, why he’s afraid of commitment, and why he also has issues with his self-image. Josh as a character could be seen as an archetype of the traditional male rom-com lead; however, he’s not. He’s a dynamic character that we simply have not been shown every side of yet because the story POV has been so focused on him as an ideal of Rebecca’s solution to her problems. We could write him off as a product of the socialization of men in Western culture; he’s immature, he’s fickle, he can’t commit, he allows himself to be infantilized by his parents and friends, but this show and its characters are the brainchild of two very smart women who have done their research. Josh Chan has his own history as a character that I fully believe we will delve deeper into as this thesis on the idea of the “crazy ex-girlfriend” is unraveled.

4) The female friendships within the show paint us a bigger picture of the overall idea of what we should be learning from each episode. Female friendships are weird, but rewarding. We are socialized to be polite and submissive or catty and competitive. At different times within the show’s narrative all of the female friendships grow and evolve into each of these stereotypes, and what we can glean from that is that women are actually complex and human. Women and their relationships to each other are not as clearly defined as media wants us to believe, even feminist media. While it’s ideal to think that women should all support each other or its stereotypical to think that women all hate each other, the truth is that we are all complex and human and our relationships as women are consistently changing. Furthermore, these concepts of competition or support would not really be discussed in relation to mens’ friendships because men as characters are allowed to be dynamic and exist as singular entities, which is the point. Audiences should begin to allow female characters to be complex and growing and changing without vilifying them for having interpersonal conflicts in the same way they allow male characters to do the same.

I honestly could write an entire dissertation on this show and the intricacies of its portrayal of mental health and the deconstruction of the archetype of the crazy ex. It’s brilliant and original and important. Art is supposed to say something, and for the first time in a long time the idea of a television show as a think piece on American culture is true again. Plus there’s songs! Bloom and McKenna have outdone themselves in putting a new-wave feminist perspective on these issues and I will go to my grave singing the praises of such a brilliant subversion of everything modern media tells us we should be as women.

#crazy ex girlfriend #rebecca bunch #josh chan #rachel bloom #aline brosh mckenna

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shinmegamitensei2 · 6 years

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i was gonna sleep cus i’m tired as shit but then my brain started blaring some thoughts in my head so now i can’t sleep, so now you guys get to hear me ramble angrily about privilege and intersections of it on my blog instead

warning: this is extremely long and at points starts to sound like “pwease weave the poow twans men awone we did nofing wrong uwu” but i promise there’s a point somewhere in here about how we gotta start thinking about what we say has consequences

just... i get so angry when privilege is conflated to “if you have it, you have every single facet of it and you always benefit from it” when that’s really not the case at all, and to treat privilege as a single card that is separate from, and consequently unaffected by personal experience, other VISIBLE aspects of identity and individuality, and so forth is a really flawed way of thinking

the way i see most people explain or treat privilege is whether you have, say, a “privilege card” and the more you accumulate, the more privileged you are and thus the more benefits society offers you as a result of your status over another person (say, a white cis straight man is far more privileged than a black trans gay woman)

this is it, a simplification of privilege, easily digestible and easy enough to regurgitate to other people to get them to understand on an elementary level what it means to have privilege - when you have it, you have benefits over another person because society deems you better than another person

but then the conversation stops there. it stops, and this simplification becomes a hard and fast rule rather than the beginning of an educational moment, and suddenly we have concepts such as self-determination of your identity means you can gain and drop privileges as you change and determine WITHIN YOURSELF who you are, rather than what society deems you as

and therein lies the problem: how do you gain or lose privilege? how does the concept of passing privilege factor into all this? what does it mean to pass, or to not pass, and can privilege be bargained, can it only be half-gained or half-lost, can it change on a whim?

the only times i ever see this brought up, it’s by some asshat who’s got some shitty opinions or is trying to defend the privileged group wherein exchanges of power usually do not happen on the level i’m trying to discuss (re: race and a white person whose family is predominantly european-white, although there is a lot to be said about someone who is white but also comes from a mixed family and the way that privilege can also be bartered based on perceived appearance versus the reality) but what i really want to look into, specifically, is the bartering of privilege gained and lost through identification as trans, nonbinary, or another gender unrecognized by mainstream society

because, like... it’s here, i feel like, where passing privilege becomes its most prominent (as well as sexuality and the culture surrounding it that has crafted a persona, either influenced by or influencing [or both!!] by homophobic caricatures of the past and present) and where we need to start having discussions, serious discussions, about how one passes not only affects their privilege, but also that we cannot and should not treat people specifically based on what privileges or disprivileges we believe they should be experiencing in their day-to-day lives, because... it doesn’t work that way

there’s such a monumental difference between people at different stages of passing, and what information they have about them that is on the internet, or among their friends and family, or to their bosses and coworkers or if it gets leaked in ways they didn’t intend or want people to see or know

i AM going to use trans men in this example, being one myself, because i don’t intend to try and explain anything using experiences that don’t belong to myself so as to not misrepresent anyone, so i apologize that this comes off as being really whiny and “wahhh stop treating transmasc ppl badly” because a whole lot of trans masc and trans men adopt misogyny and absorb toxic masculinity in an attempt to become masculine, in a world where manliness is often defined by how much you can reject femininity and the constant attempts to redefine masculinity in a way that doesn’t allow male predators to adopt it solely to hurt women I’M GOING ON A TANGENT ANYWAY

there was a point i wanted to make here, and it was specifically on the idea that, like... you cannot ever, possibly, expect a trans man who is completely untransitioned and is seen, societally, as a woman, to own any amount of male privilege that makes any real difference where it matters aside from an online community wherein anonymity is valued, but also in said community where that information (that they are trans, whether or not they mention they are untransitioned) may be open and ENCOURAGED to be posted online for the sake of engaging in these conversations in the first place

as opposed to a trans man who is fully transitioned, has spent several years being accepted as a man, having absorbed ideas about masculinity that may make him indistinguishable from other men and nobody questions his status as a man, and all of this is STILL contingent on the fact that nobody knows or SHOULD know that he is trans, as once that information comes out on a platform where people feel empowered to challenge him (not only including the internet, but in real life, where it is common and encouraged for men to engage in violence, especially where bigotry is concerned)

as opposed to any trans men who may be in between, too! a man who is taking T, whose voice is changing over time and where his neighbors may catch onto what’s going on and grow suspicious; a man who takes strides to act masculine where he can, but who is stifled in an environment where he could be abused or killed purely on account of transphobia; a man who does not WANT to take the steps required for society to fully “recognize” him as a man, and so may never be able to fully participate in presenting the way he wants

this is all transphobia, full stop. not transmisandry or whatever weirdo terms ppl are coming up with these days, but there is a lot to be said in how transness AFFECTS male privilege, and how that male privilege may be adopted, absorbed, and enacted depending on the way that society recognizes men, maleness and masculinity

trans masculinity, and the state of being a trans man, is not an experience shared by every trans man. trans men are not all the same - some are trans nonbinary men, some transition, some do not, some adopt abusive techniques and toxicity that comes built into the system that tells us what being a man is and what being a woman is (although i could also argue that in a lot of ways, to be recognized as a man without having homophobia and transphobia and misogyny thrown at you constantly is to HAVE to participate in these systems, but alas)

there is a wide variety of difference in all of these people, and how they are recognized on a widescale manner that makes any shred of difference outside of this website - which begs another question! where does privilege travel? can it disappear or appear depending on where you are? where you go? can you have privilege on tumblr, but then have it vanish when you leave this website?

there’s a distortion, a way we talk about privilege and the privileged folk, that makes it so damn difficult to discuss the finer and more important details about privilege, intersection, and how privilege is not the same for everyone. it CANNOT be the same for everyone, because passing privilege is not yet another token given to people just to show that they have it! and privilege is not a set of cards and coins that come separately and totally irrelevant of each other!

a trans man is pelted by misogyny, homophobia, as well as transphobia when he does not pass. just as cis men are pelted with these ideas, so too are trans men. and yes, they are misguided. they hurt women and gay people more than they hurt men and straight people, this much should be obvious to anyone. but these things - they are STILL internalized, and how they are internalized changes depending on who is on the receiving end, and in many ways these things are markers and indicators of how to and how not to act for men

i wanted to keep going on about this point and i think i have more to say but my end point with all this is just that privilege changes power depending on where you are, who you are, and on a moment’s notice depending on what information people have a hold of, and i know i did a not-great job of explaining this but also i’m just venting so whatever

another thought occurred to me, about something i was thinking about earlier today, and it’s about how we talk about this concept, and how we approach privilege and privileged people and people whose privilege may variably change

obviously tumblr’s a bad place to be. it’s polarizing, because a lot of people use it as a place to vent, and there’s a lot of gross and nasty people here (including highly-privileged folk and fucking neo-nazis for fuck’s sake) and having long and meaningful conversations here is pointless because it’s drowned out by the obsession and need for having notes yet lacking a cohesive way to spread posts and all proper additions to that post without someone losing some form of context along the way

(that fucking, pewdiepiekin post goin around is one such example, since it’s apparently a joke that OP has but everyone’s treating it as fact, and like obviously it’s hard to tell sarcasm on this website given how much weird shit we’ve seen, but also that it’s FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE to correct such a misunderstanding BECAUSE of the very nature of tumblr itself, go figure)

but that’s also why i think we gotta have this conversation, this like... talk that we can’t keep talking about shit the way we have been, especially in regards to social justice and conceptualizing it for the younger kids who USE this website, and like... we just gotta have a different way of approaching things now, because the more i watch idle chats where people gleefully and openly post screenshots of others making fun of them for minor shit or momentary fuck-ups that could be easily ignored because the person is still learning (ESPECIALLY IF THEY’RE LIKE 14) and otherwise give themselves a free pass to become openly vicious and in the name of coping or to share amongst their friends how pathetic they view some people

like ok not to be a liberal and i’d rather not be classified as such because i don’t lick the boots of the privileged or pull any of that devil’s advocate shit but this extremely hostile environment we’ve cultivated and continually defend because we think this website creates ANY sort of meaningful difference in the world and anything we do on this website has any sort of meaningful impact that is beneficial to us while also openly encouraging behaviors that mitigate and deny growth and learning from mistakes is honestly kind of fucking scary

this is in no way saying giving a pass or go on behavior that directly spreads violence like saying slurs and whatnot, but we’re also so, so very fucking vicious, and at some point, no matter what reason you have for saying what you do, the consequence is that your words and intents get hijacked and used out of context in a manner that forms high hostility in the first place

and it’s so, so hard to talk about here too, without going “well if you hate men hurr durr it’s ur fault everything on this site sucks don’t openly say you hate your oppressors hurr durr!” like that’s such an easy trap to fall into but i don’t believe that either, even if i’ve grown distasteful of openly expressing “i hate cis men” (because they terrify me and could murder me at a moment’s notice, both for thinking i’m a woman and for finding out i am trans) or “i hate straight people” (because they fetishize my gayness and shit!) and etc

i’ve got so many reasons why i could express those thoughts, but should i do it, and on a regular basis, consequences follow. consequences that destroy my cultivated and intended reputation as someone who is open and friendly and kind, because it is difficult to really PROVE that to someone who may be on the fence from allowing themself to be deprogrammed from societal teachings and ingrained and taught transphobia and homophobia and misogyny and racism and so on so forth

and i know not everyone is like that. not everyone WANTS to teach and to provide the resources for that and to help deprogram people. most people just want to vent, most people want to escape from the daily abuse and fear and vent their frustrations. i get that. but then where do we go from there, when we have such an absolute volume of people doing and saying this exact thing, in such a degree that such a climate becomes normal to be reactionary and to react to any level of ignorance with anger, no matter who it comes from?

i’m being so, so vague here, and i really do not want it to come off as protection of the poor soft privileged or what the fuck ever, i genuinely do not. i guess i’m just describing a time in my life where i was like that, where i openly enjoyed mocking people that i thought were beyond reprieve and “saving” and getting into fights and it was such a nasty attitude to be in because it led to me throwing people out of my life, throwing caution to the wind, destroying my reputation online and getting put on places like r/tumblrinaction and potentially k.i/.w/i./f./a/./r./.m//s for my actions

living that way endangered me, and not just because of who i am. living that way destroyed me, and it destroyed my way of thinking, too. it destroyed my moral system, it encouraged me to dehumanize others. it encouraged me to find new ways to rationalize violence as a way of “vengeance” and “retribution” for the damages society dealt me, as if that was any rational and correct way of approaching this situation

anger has its place. anger has its place in destroying the system we have now and rebuilding a new one. but we need to understand that our actions, no matter how justified, still have consequences, sometimes extremely unintended, and even unwarranted that we didn’t deserve, and just... i dunno

there is no easy solution to this. i don’t believe we’ll get anywhere by being nice to everyone all the time, just as much as i don’t believe we’ll get anywhere by developing such a community-wide but aimless anger that we develop as hostile an environment as we have on this website

i don’t know what we need, but it can’t be this

#vent #this is way too long and you probably shouldn't read it #and please absolutely do not rb it i would very much appreciate that #it's a bunch of thoughts i wanted to throw out there and it's not coherent #nor is it a blatant and exact statement of my ideologies #tons of it is vague even because i just do not want to stick to my guns and say something stupid #and like have all my friends turn on me and tell me how i'm no different from the people i'm rambling about #i dunno. this website has that effect on me now i guess #i know that's a broad reaching term too to be like 'fucking tumblr LOL sjws'#but... yeah everything i fucking put out here scares the shit out of me so thanks

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