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mittensmorgul · 3 years

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Mittens, I know that some people are rejoicing over Castiel's vision in 12x19, but personally, I started crying when I realized that Cas gave up so much for love and faith in his family, and got teased with that vision of the future - a paradise he wanted for them, for himself - but never approximated that in the end. It's just so heartbreaking and I feel like I'm mourning him all over again and it just really sucks. Idk.

Hi hi!

The vision also hurts my heart, deeply, but maybe for slightly different reasons...

I have been suffering throughout the last few seasons over Cas's overall arc, and this vision, in that moment in 12.19, when Cas was literally (in text! from Dean's mouth!) desperate for a win, is just excruciating to me. And I'll tell you why.

in the mixtape scene, this was Cas's lament to Dean. He wanted to come back with a win FOR DEAN, and FOR HIMSELF. He wanted Dean to think of him as the "hero" or the "savior."

I will pause to ask here: since when has Dean ever wanted that? Ever since Cas gripped him tight and saved him from Hell, Cas has struggled to step out from that role of Protector. Shield.

This was the Big Mistake he made in s6, right? Everything that went wrong was framed around the fact that he was trying to "protect" Dean. This is why he bought into Crowley's plan, why he left Dean in the dark even after he got dragged back into the fight, and why everything ultimately ended with Cas's literal death. Like... the narrative judged him. In 6.20, all he was left with was Dean's disappointment, and a drive to prove that he was actually right (he was not actually right...).

Even in 12.19, he was "playing them" all along. He came back under the pretense of wanting to "rejoin the team" and work together with Sam and Dean again, but really he was only there to steal the Colt on behalf of Heaven. Cas was prepared to do whatever it took to keep Sam and Dean safe from Dagon, but also "safe" from having to kill an innocent woman to prevent the birth of the nephilim she carried.

Like in s6, Cas was desperate for that win. He was desperate to "earn" his place with the Winchesters, the family he chose. He even told Kelvin before they went in to confront Dagon that he wasn't doing this to redeem his "reputation" in Heaven, he only cared about "redeeming his reputation" with DEAN.

He has no idea that Dean does not give one flying fig about Cas's ability to "protect him," he just wants Cas to Be There With Him.

And later on, this is literally the lesson Cas attempts to impart to Jack. When Jack laments the loss of his power, and believes himself "useless," It's CAS who most effectively talks to him about the fact that nobody cares about his powers, that they don't care about what he can do FOR them. They just care about HIM. Like... even in 15.18. This is the conversation he has with Jack by the Impala while Sam and Dean are talking to Charlie:

Jack: I feel... strange. I don't know if that's because of what happened to me, if it means something, or if I just feel strange because... it's over. The plan. My destiny. I was ready to die and, I wanted to, for Sam, for Dean, for the world. I wanted to make things right, and now... I don't know why I'm even here.

Castiel: Jack. You never needed absolution from Sam, or Dean, or from me. We don't care about you because you're useful or you fit into some grand design. We care about you because you're you.

So like... for YEARS I've felt like this was what Dean needed to actually say TO CAS. That he doesn't want Cas to try to protect him. He doesn't need Cas to be his shield. He doesn't need Cas to be "powerful" or his savior. He just needs Cas.

So this vision... this "manipulation" that Jack showed Cas in that very moment in 12.19, that Cas believed was "paradise" at the time, was what Cas needed to hear in that moment. That he could be "powerful," with his wings healed and made "useful" again.

Dean thanking him.

Not Dean being happy that they're all safe, that they managed to finally "get a win," but specifically thanking HIM for actually winning.

He wanted to believe he could be useful again.

And to me that was a tragic, depressing lesson that he still never managed to understand for himself by the end of the series.

If Dean ever knew what the vision Cas had considered "paradise" in that moment of betrayal of his loved ones, I personally think Dean would've been horrified. I mean, he didn't even KNOW what the vision entailed, and was pre-horrified by his personal belief about how Cas had been manipulated into running away and leaving them all in the dark immediately after they'd all just gotten back on the same page again and recommitted to working together again.

So like... This is still DEEPLY in Cas's disturbing mindset of being 100% ready to sacrifice himself to "spare" Sam and especially Dean from having to do the hard things. This was nearly an identical mindset to when he'd said yes to Lucifer in the Cage in s11 because he believed he could spare Sam from having to do that himself. Like... he truly believed he was making Good Choices in these instances, and it ended up both times causing problems he'd never even considered. S11 had Lucifer using him and nearly killing Sam and Dean, and then going on a rampage that would last multiple seasons more which directly led to Jack in the first place. And then in the attempt to bring about Jack's birth, Cas cut off all communication with the Winchesters (theoretically to protect them) and therefore they had no way to warn him that Lucifer was still on the loose and closing in on reclaiming Jack himself. It literally ended up costing them Mary (pulled through the rift with Lucifer), Crowley sacrificed himself to stop it, and Lucifer killed Cas, all because Cas ran away and tried to fix everything on his own. He desperately wanted to be the winner, here.

So to me, I can't see him getting his wings back and being truly powerful and being "Dean's savior" and him basically thinking that Dean's acknowledgement of that salvation and Dean's gratitude was his idea of "paradise?" Yeah... it turns my stomach.

Dean... would hate it.

Dean's idea of paradise... is actual free will. Of them CHOOSING EACH OTHER, choosing family and standing shoulder to shoulder as a united front against the threats that come their way, instead of yet again making the same mistake of believing that they're sacrificing themselves to spare their loved ones from having to stand up and fight at all.

It NEVER works out that way. Never has. Never would.

I mean, this is why Cas made the deal with the Empty, trading away his own happiness for Jack, believing that Dean's happiness was in having JACK in the family. The tragic blind spot was his inability to see that Dean's happiness ALSO INVOLVED HAVING CAS THERE.

And the ultimate tragedy is that Dean never got a chance to actually say that to Cas.

Because if Cas had actually known that, he would never have made the choices he did.

Which is another reason I absolutely can't credit the end of 15.19 and Jack NOT bringing Cas back, knowing that he'd done it once before, and knowing WHY Cas sacrificed himself. Jack knew the conditions of Cas's deal, and I cannot believe that any version of JACK would have allowed that sacrifice to stand for HIM. Because it was the antithesis of everything Cas himself had ever taught to Jack.

Heck... I hope that makes sense...

basically, this should've been a jumping off point for Cas to ACTUALLY understand he was just as wanted, just as needed, just as cared for, and yes even LOVED, for who he was, and not the sacrifices he could make to protect Dean (and Sam, and Jack... but ultimately for Dean).

The fact he KNEW the moment he made that deal with the Empty that the knowledge of the details of that deal would be a "burden" to Dean, that it would be upsetting to Dean to know that Cas had literally traded away his own potential for true happiness because he thought that would be what Dean would prefer... he KNEW Dean would be upset about that. He knew Dean would NOT have wanted that, and swore Jack to secrecy about it. Like... he knew he had done the wrong thing here, or he wouldn't have hidden it from Dean.

So I have a really hard time thinking of this vision of Paradise (which is already a loaded word in itself in canon, and was literally what Dean spat out as an angry insult at Cas in 4.22 before his first true "tearing up the pages" and making it up as they go moment) as anything but a glaring warning sign.

And then oh look, Cas was literally killed for it four episodes later.

Then when he came back, he went right back to believing in his "purpose," wondering WHY he was brought back. Dean's "we needed you" wasn't really clear enough for Cas to understand that they didn't need him to "protect" them or to be "useful" to them. Dean just NEEDED him. Full stop.

It's a tragedy, folks.

#spn 12.19 #spn 12.23 #spn 11.10 #spn 14.08 #castiel winchester #heck it hurts so much he never actually got the chance to understand the lessons he taught to jack #and that once jack took on the god power apparently he forgot all those lessons too....#basically chuck won right? right #spn 15.18

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arabian-bloodstream · 3 years

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TWD, S11-1A Arc Thoughts So far

There be spoilers here kinda sorta, but not really, it’s really just a general thinky-thoughts post on the first arc of season 11 of The Walking Dead as its “finale” aired on AMC+ the other night.

I generally read takes on The Walking Dead after it airs and since I'm a Caryl fan, I read the takes of their fans. However, I've found myself more and more not agreeing lately with the thoughts of even those I generally do.

The overall consensus appears to be that "nothing has happened" in this first arc. That it's pointless. Carol and Daryl have been separated. Carol/Melissa McBride has barely been on screen and the Reapers are boring and awful, and this whole thing is a complete waste of time. I'm gonna have to have a big ole disagree here. Let me elucidate as to the why.

The Reapers arc is NOT about the Reapers. Carol/MMB not having much screentime sucks now, but I believe there is a reason for that.

Let's take Carol/MMB first. Carol took a lot of unwarranted hate last season. Like A LOT. A lot lot lot..... Like a crazy, ridiculous amount of hate. Melissa McBride was ALL OVER the show last season. She was front and center all over the place. And she was magnificent... for Carol fans. Outside of Carol fans? She was hated. People were done with her. They were over. They wanted her gone. They didn't have sympathy for her. They didn't care that every child she loved, raised as her own, cared for was killed. They did not care. They didn't care that she was/is suffering other loads of trauma. They don't care how brilliant Melissa McBride is. They were just done with Carol's shit. Period. Done, finished, over.

Angela Kang REALIZED that. She also knows that Daryl and Carol are the HEART and SOUL and FUTURE of this franchise. Literally. There is a spin-off with those two. And if one-half of that future has a vocal majority of the online fanbase (and I've gone to other sites--just random, discussing TWD sites) that are tired of Carol's "shit," something has to be done to shift that attitude. So, guess what? Something is being done. Carol, in this first arc, is being shown sparingly, not shoved down anyone's throat. She is still getting shit done. She is fighting to save Alexandra. She was the one fighting to save Connie, BUT, she didn't get the glory shot. That was Kelly --as it should have been. And then Connie (and Kelly) in this latest episode both made the very clear choice that they wanted to help/work with Carol.

Kang is not sidelining Carol because she doesn't like her or because she's giving into the Carol-haters. She is doing this to ease the hate that had been thrown at Carol last season, rehabilitate her image while Carol rectifies her mistakes, when she pushed every one away, her vengeance helping to cause some of the issues that are facing Alexandria now. Carol is now helping to stop Aaron from going down the same path, leading the charge to save Connie, etc. So when the next arc begins and we see Carol more again--as I’m sure we will, it will be with a fresh perspective and a renewed appreciation for her character.

(Note: I know that Carol is extremely popular still. I’m just saying that they still want to ease the online hate for her.)

As for the Reapers. This arc is about three characters: Daryl, and Maggie and Negan. Let's start with Maggie, and Maggie and Negan.

We haven't seen Maggie for years. She was a major player on the show, so naturally she is going to get a major arc upon her return. This is her major arc. I think we had two options. We could see her dealing with her (understandable) Negan issues in Alexandria which would have taken away from Carol's arc, involving Carol and all she did, letting Negan out, bringing Alpha into it, stirring up resentment between her and Maggie--which would undermine what Kang is trying to do for Carol!

OR, she could take Maggie and Negan OUT of Alexandria and have Maggie deal with her (understandable) Negan issues away from Carol, not bringing her into it. Let Maggie and Negan hash it out together. That's what Kang did, that's what she is doing. This is Maggie's arc, it's getting her to a place where she can live in some kind of harmony with Negan. This HAD to be done to give Maggie any kind of "happy" ending. It had to happen, and it had to happen away from Alexandria/Carol to give Carol her fresh start with viewers to stop the haterade parade.

Now, Daryl... Kang's first season as showrunner, well, the first half was basically spent getting things back on track after the mess that Gimple had made of the last 3-4 seasons. The next half of that season was deeply exploring Carol's character, going in-depth on that bad boy. The next season--which was last--continued that exploration, but also added a season-long deep dive into the bond between Carol and Daryl. So, what are we getting now? Why naturally, a deep exploration into who? Daryl Dixon!

I adored the episode "Find Me," and I'm so thrilled that we got it. The original plan was to include the romantic relationship with Leah in a few flashbacks when Leah was introduced with the Reapers. I'm so happy it didn't happen that way because (a) it would have lessened the depth of exploration of Daryl's character, and (b) it would have jettisoned the gorgeous Carol parallels. Having this whole arc about the Reapers isn't pointless, doesn't not matter because Daryl isn't pointless, Daryl doesn't not matter.

Because we had that parallel between Leah and Carol, we can see so clearly that Daryl has a type. (Take that, Carol ain't his type, hah!) We can also see that Daryl will always try and save people. Yes, yes, we already knew that, but because of this arc, we see that Daryl has learned, finally!, that once the jig is up, the jig is damn well up and when you can't save someone, you can't save them. We're also seeing different sides of Daryl, that he can blend in, that he has learned from Carol.

As for Caryl, Daryl and Carol can't be Caryl until both sides are healed enough to stop talking in circles and truly talk. We saw that in "Find Me." Carol is healing. If she doesn't let herself heal, she'll constantly be torn apart by guilt. Daryl is finding that he can't save everyone, he has to save those who matter most TO HIM. Otherwise, he's constantly going to try and save everyone and be torn apart by guilt. They have to do these things separately.

They already know they have each other's backs. They already know the other will NEVER turn on the other, leave the other. That's not in question. Carol has been broken inside. Daryl can't fix that. Daryl has a martyr complex trying to save everyone. Carol can't stop him. That is something they have to figure out themselves or it won't work. So... again, Carol is healing. Daryl is figuring it out.

And then they will come together. For now, in this arc, they are getting their ducks in a row, it’s just a separate thing. So, the first arc of this season? Not pointless at all, in my opinion.

#caryl #Carol Peletier #daryl dixon #carol x dixon #the walking dead

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dotthings · 4 years

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15.06. A great wrong has been righted. Hope is allowed in this narrative. I hope Chuck is brooding in his brooding dark castle somewhere, gnashing his teeth and cursing the heroes like a proper villain.

The Dean and Cas breakup and Rowena’s death are in the “Then” so I knew this was going to be a doozy.

Excuse me, random witch I don’t know STOP TOUCHING QUEEN ROWENA’S THINGS THIS INSTANT STOP THAT.

Back in the bunker, Sam is not looking good. Tired, a bit damp-eyed haggard, and randomly cruising weird lore and stuff on the internet, like he’s throwing spaghetti at the wall, any lead, any hunt, just something, that will help them or keep him from feeling helpless. Jared was so great in this ep, showing Sam’s anxiety about Chuck, his ongoing sadness about Rowena, but also hope and joy because of Eileen, and my heart just aches.

Dean’s still stress eating, shoving dry cereal in his mouth and pretending to be cheery and marathoning Scooby Doo (comfort watching). He turns down going with Sam on the milk run and is hanging around in his bathrobe. This is a lot like Dean in S14 after being possessed by AU Michael. Anyone still think Dean has been perfectly okay since 15.03? LOLOLOL. Nor is this just because of finding out Chuck is still out there. Dean’s been stress eating and day drinking and trying to hide behind food pranking before they found out Chuck was back. He’s still reeling and avoiding his Cas feelings, which were complicated by the nihilism Dean feels because of Chuck, and now on top of that, they know that Chuck isn’t actually gone.

While Cas’s coping mechanism is to go fishing, something he says he learned from a friend is a way to find some peace. So Cas is getting away from his feelings by emulating the person causing the feelings he’s trying to avoid right now. Also note, in S11 Cas dealt with trauma by turtling in his room marathoning tv shows, which is also a Dean method of coping with trauma. We get to see Cas standing on his own, an autonomous and competent hunter, and that’s important, but Dean’s impact on Cas, his link with him, their similarities, doesn’t go away.

I really like we get to see Sam jogging. It’s one of those things, like sparring, we’re told happens and don’t get to see. Cas goes fishing, Dean hides out in his bathrobe eating sugary cereal watching Scooby Doo, Sam goes jogging. Everyone’s got their way of coping.

EILEEN!!! EILEEN IS A GHOST IT IS GHOST EILEEN HI EILEEN HI HI!!!!

So she’s been trying to get them to see her and Sam finally does. Little bit of a parallel back to S8 and Dean haunted by seeing Cas everywhere and Cas turns out to be real.

So Eileen needs help getting her soul into Heaven. I’m disappointed she actually really was killed instead of my theories because the way she was killed irritated me so much but I’m really happy that despite that actual narrative mistake where spn mis-stepped, her story isn’t over, this hole in my heart is healing wow thanks spn.

Dean seems weirdly okay with the idea of Sam as heir to Rowena’s magical lore and I honestly expected him to be more resistant but a lot has happened, characters grow, Dean cared about and trusted Rowena. So that’s interesting. He’s for it.

Sam’s sad face is just getting to me all over this episode.

“I need to find my son.” Cas’s sad sad face listening to this distraught parent. Of course he’s going to help her find her son. Of course he is. Of course his fishing trip is over. A hunt found him and of course he can’t turn his back on a parent who wants to save her child. What we see in this ep is Cas enacting what Sam and Dean have been saying about why they do what they do, even if things are miserable and it seems hopeless, but if they help others, that makes things better for the world.

Sam empathizing with Eileen about having been in Hell. Oh, my poor babies.

All right, Columbo, I mean “Agent Worley” is on the case. And the local law enforcement wants to check with his supervisor OH GOD OH GOD THE PHONE IS RINGING IN THE BUNKER DEAN IS ANSWERING IT

“He wants to talk to you” OH THAT’S FINE MY HEART JUST DROPPED TO MY TOES THAT’S COOL COOL COOL

“Sam’s been trying to call you...check your damn messages” and Dean checking on Cas and warning him about Chuck. Listen, I am Cas in this scene, Cas is me. Cas just LOSES IT and so did I. Dean, wtf, my dude, my pet, my love, my dumbass, it was your idea to alienate him, and *now* you’re telling him not to be a stranger, and warning him about the big bad that is a threat to them all, oh Dean, oh honey, you really do suck at being done with Cas, and Cas sucks at being done with you.

So Cas has a smol nervous breakdown because DEAN and rubs his hand hard over his face and can’t hold character as Agent Worley then pulls it together to maintain his cover.

I know, Cas, I know. Dean can be A LOT.

Sam finding Rowena’s journeys has got me all thinking about how Sam goes from blood relative legacy of John’s journal that Sam didn’t really choose but eventually appreciated as legacy to found family legacy of Rowena’s journal, a bond and a legacy Sam chose.

Sam telling Eileen what happened to Rowena OH MY HEART. This episode is a lot.

Eileen trying to comfort Sam and her ghostly hand goes right through him...and at the end of the ep they can touch. I WILL BE SHOUTING ABOUT THIS FOR A WHILE.

“Her magic. This is how she kept control.” Sam talks about how Rowena understood how the deck was stacked, Sam talks about Rowena in a way that shows how deeply he understood Rowena. *cries*

Sam wants to bring ghost Eileen back to flesh and blood life. *screaming internally*

Seeing Cas in researchy mode, helping others, giving others hope, being a competent autonomous hunter THIS IS SO GOOD.

Loved the way Sam and Eileen use sign in general. And Sam signing “my brother” to Eileen so she can get help for him as he’s captured by the witches.

Seems weirdly apt the actress who played Chuck’s publisher now plays one of the witches who kidnaps Sam.

We’ve often seen spn use toxic siblings as dark mirrors for Sam and Dean, cautionary notes and red flags. In this ep the toxic sibling mirror seems to allow to highlight the functionlity of Sam and Dean. The witch sister pranks that were malicious and harmful vs Winchester pranks that aren’t harmful, but done out of affection, and to lighten the strain they’re under from what they do.

Enjoyed these scenes with Melly and Cas as Melly talks about her son and how they fight but “we’ll get through.” Relevant familial stuff there, and applies for parents and kids, siblings, or, y’know, whatever pseudo-spousal thing Dean and Cas have going on. Cas also relates to Melly as someone who rejected their expected roles put on them by higher ups in the chain, and wanted something better. Free will.

Yes I so like that Cas gets a win in this ep. He finds the missing son, reunites a family. Melly and her son seem to take the whole supernatural being savior hero thing fairly calmly, considering. And this ep also reminds us, very clearly: Cas is a hero. Sam and Dean are not the only heroes of this story.

I enjoy badass Cas and Cas was an able hunter in this ep but he really is NOT okay. A simple clean kill would have been enough for this djinn, but the way he kept stabbing the monster over and over, splattered in blood that isn’t his own, he’s compensating or something. Cas looked anguished. Cas is dealing with a lot. Feeling rejected by Dean, losing the only family he has, and his anger at Chuck for messing with them all so severely. Cas went to the woods and the lake seeking peace and wound up covered in blood.

Hm, so Cas can heal the boy’s ankle but he struggles to use his grace, which seems to be spluttering like it’s low on fuel. Looks like those human Cas metas are still pointing in likely directions.

“If I stay nothing changes...it’s time for me to get back in the game.” Yes he could stay in the woods and the lake and fish and take the occasional hunt, and hide forever from the ones he still loves but doubts his place and hide from the urgent main fight. But he can’t. Back the game...is also coming home.

Ghost Eileen is a badass and saves Sam HELL YEAH. Rowena’s legacy, Dean racing in last minute, and ghost Eileen, all saved Sam in this ep.

“I learned from the best.” Sam using Rowena’s teaching to defeat the witches. There’s that legacy again.

The spell to restore ghost Eileen to flesh and blood involves a bath that seems ritualistic, with Sam performing the spell. I am NEVER getting over how Sam is shaking with emotion while he courteously keeps his back to her. Never ever ever. And then their hands...finally touching. Clasping each other. And Sam hugging damp Eileen. Sam’s FACE. Oh my god I’m never ever getting over this.

This is so hopeful and joyful and it still hurts, Sam has been through so much and he’s had so much pain, and since Eileen was introduced, she seemed to bring out a light in him that gave me a pang right here *taps chest*. We’re seeing it in this episode. OUCH OUCH MY HEART.

Eileen is a great character in her own right and I love her and disliked how she was killed off so so much and it helps so much that SPN did this and restored her, and Eileen and Sam together, just gets me. Right in the chest.

This last Sam and Dean scene. “I don’t know what’s God and what isn’t” says Dean. HELLO WHAT HAVE I BEEN SAYING AND SAYING ABOUT DEAN’S STATE OF MIND AND WHY HE’S ACTING THE WAY HE DID TOWARDS CAS.

“We’re the guys who break the rules.” WOW LOOK IT’S MY METAS ENACTED VIA DIALOGUE

Sam is basically taking my position—that while Chuck manipulates some events, he can’t control everything and they make their own choices and do the unpredictable things. While Dean is caught in the nihilism of believing everything was manipulated, almost nothing was real.

Just as I don’t think Chuck wanted Cas to come back in S13 and that was an unpredicted twist, I don’t think Eileen is back due to Chuck’s meddling. Eileen’s spirit sought out Sam and Dean, Rowena’s legacy, her unfinished spell for Mary, is what allows Sam to perform the ritual spell to restore Eileen. As Cas has been tied to Dean’s sense of hope, Eileen has been an immensely hopeful figure for Sam. I don’t think Chuck wants them to have this. Can’t be 100% sure, maybe he wants them to have their hope just so he can crush them even harder, but these relationships being part of breaking out of Chuck’s machine, to make their own rules, find hope despite those machinations, makes sense to me.

“I need my brother.” Yes, you do. You both do. Sam and Dean don’t just need only each other, but they are rule breakers and they do need each other. Team Free Will is essential to break Chuck’s machine, and Team Free Will is Sam & Dean, Dean & Cas, Sam & Cas, and all 3.

While the ice has broken a bit between Dean and Cas in this ep, they still aren’t talking about Cas. But their biggest wild card is on his way home and they are Team Free Rule Breakers, all three of them.

#supernatural #spn #sam winchester #dean winchester #castiel #eileen leahy #supernatural spoilers #saileen #destiel #sam and dean: a work in progress

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canonicallysoulmates · 5 years

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Supernatural 15.02

I am so fucking angry. And so fucking done. And this episode doesn’t even deserve my anger because it’s so bad it’s not even worth it, I’m gonna tell you right now if you haven’t seen this episode yet don’t waste your time with it.

I wasn’t expecting a masterpiece from BuckLemming but goddamn! This is the last season and they wasted a whole entire episode, not a little bit, not half of it, all of it! Nothing happens! It’s a boring hour of nothingness!

I don’t even know what to talk about because nothing happens! It’s a boring hour of nothingness! It consists off:

1. Various uncomfortable scenes between Ketch and Rowena flirting wanting to hump each other - which is so out of left field it makes Gabriel-Rowena seem expected - because it’s not a BuckLemming episode if sex or something sexual doesn’t make an appearance.

2. An, I don’t give a flying fuck about, scene between Dean and Castiel, in which Castiel says that the choices they made are theirs and they made their own moves which, if true, technically means that they did have free will which is supposedly the thing they don’t actually have because Chuck is supposed to be this puppet master but whatever this episode is not worth me getting into this whole debate, but I will say this episode made me realize is that if Dabb had given this whole evil Chuck thing some thought he could have done a very complex exploration of God, one that isn’t a complete puppet master but that was more involved in the boys lives than they thought, a mix between wrathful manipulator and loving creator. [But if he had done that, Chuck wouldn’t be an accurate representation of Dabb cause there’s no loving creator in him.]

3. A couple of quick Kevin scenes. Yes, that Kevin. He makes an appearance, he was one of the souls in hell, why was he in hell? Because God lied about sending him to heaven, why did God lie about sending him to heaven (and how did nobody find out he was in hell this whole time even though at the time he was supposedly sent there Crowley had control of hell and why did these demons who somehow always seem to know of the famous Winchesters never used Kevin being in hell to their benefit, not even Lucifer)? Because the plot required it. And Dabb needed an excuse for bringing back a “fan favorite” that has already been brought back multiple times and thus has now lost any emotional impact his return might have had; Kevin does pretty much nothing and leaves at the end of the episode, his return was pointless. But that’s not gonna stop Dabb and friends from patting themselves on the back for bringing Kevin back on the show.

4. We get some sibling interaction! But before you get too excited it’s not between Sam and Dean cause they have basically zero interaction in the episode, it’s between Chuck and Amara and it’s nothing interesting it’s just a long pointless set up to planting the seed that Chuck is low on battery or some shit, it’s several scenes of him trying to convince her to go with him to another dimension until she realizes he can’t do anything at the moment and needs her, and then she’s all ‘you trapped me now i trap you’.

5. And the rest is filled in by: boring, pointless conversations, like the ghosts, who don’t really look like any other ghosts I had seen on this show before, making plans to get out of the barrier or the humans that plan to sneak back to their town/neighborhood for some meds, Dean shooting the ghosts that are trying to get out of the barrier except the budget wasn’t large enough for the whole ghost so it looks more like Dean is shooting at nothing, characters revealing that they’re possessed by bleeding from the eyes. There’s a soul catching tool that Rowena makes but I’m unsure as to whether the soul catching tool used in this episode is the same one that Dean wanted to use at the end of s11, the one that would have cost him his life, but what I am sure of is that every time she sucked one of the ghosts in it, it made me think of Pokemon. It looked so stupid I couldn’t take it seriously.

It’s boring! It’s pointless! It’s bad writing!

The things that happen in this episode can either be eliminated completely (like the Ketch/Rowena), incorporated into other episodes, or dealt with quickly (like introducing the whole Chuck being low on power thing) a lot of time was spend on things that really didn’t need to be dragged out.

And if you’ve noticed a lack of mentions of Sam and Dean in this post, it’s because they don’t do much either! Sam is mostly with the people they evacuated trying to find a solution and Dean is mostly off patrolling the barrier with demon!Jack. They barely interact in the episode, and while last week’s epi had them apart for most of it that’s made up by the scene at the end, here there is no emotional, brother scene at the end to make up for their separation.

It’s shameful and sad, and it pisses me off that even though it’s the final season the writers decided to waste this whole episode instead of trying to make it good and memorable. Every epi this season should be done with care because after this there are no more, this is the end of the road.

There is no saving this episode, it’s forgettable, there are no highlights, and what may be memorable is memorable in a bad way; the ending of the s15 premiere reminded me why it was that I started and keep watching this show, this episode has reminded me why it is time for this show to end and made me once again feel thankful to j2 for having mercy on the show and us the fans, and deciding to end spn.

#spn negative #anti bucklemming #anti andrew dabb #spn spoilers #anti destiel #spn 15.02 #opinion on supernatural #mine #anti castiel #spn #supernatural

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calliecat93 · 5 years

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RvB17 Episode 7 Review: Limbo

Time travel sucks. That's all I've got for an intro, it sucks. It's confusing and makes my brain hurt and... let's just get into this before I give myself a migraine.

Overview

We start where we left off, Huggins in what we can now confirm is the heart of a Black Hole. But she's not alone. Remember in S16 when Huggins mentioned that her parents were killed by a Black Hole? Well... they're alive! And named Gerald and Cheryl. So how are they and Huggins alive? Simple, they are light. Light is information, and you can't destroy information. They also ask where Huggins brother is, who as it turns out is Muggins. Weird that he only called her a friend last season, but hey I'll go with it. But the parents are confused as the rest of the universe should be there, and the only thing that could prevent that is some kind of time blockage. A paradox, if you will. Huggins realizes what this means and is told by her parents to go at light-speed to reach where she needs to be.

Back in Season 5, Sister is talking to Doc about how to deal with Tucker. Essentially, she plans on fucking with him for as long as possible. Doc is not happy about this since Tucker is still recovering... and the fact that it sounds outright nuts. Back with the others, well... we still have the whole 'Donut betrayed everyone' thing to deal with. Sarge wants to outright execute him for it. Wash points out that Donut tried to fix all of it, but it does little to help with Grif pretty coldly pointing out that Donut stole The Hammer. Of course, none of them know that Donut tried to use it himself, but they aren't really giving him the chance to explain either, so... oh and Caboose figured out how to Time Travel on his own, so he's gone at this point.

Tucker wakes up, and Sister proceeds to fuck with him in several ways while Doc just goes 'fuck this' and leaves. Back with Huggins, she arrives at Blood Gulch and is surprised by how shitty it looks. But no one is there as this was before the Reds and Blues were sent there, so she goes forward some more until she sees Caboose. At first, she thinks that he doesn't know what she means when she asks about the paradox... until Caboose explains that they did it to save Wash and how she got angry at Grif before flying off. So Huggins explains that essentially black holes make time loop, like a circle... just go with it people. Like me, Huggins is overwhelmed before asking Caboose if they can talk.

Back with the others, Tucker seems to have bought Sister's story and says goodbye to Doc. He goes to apologize to Donut for making fun of him and at this point utterly agitated by everyone, Donut does the 'how do you know x if you never met x' spiel to snap Tucker back to normal. What is surprising though is that this also snaps Doc back to normal, so we can confirm that he isn't dead. He does remember the S16 finale fight, and about how awesome it was. And it is listening to Doc recount those events that cause Donut to do what we have been waiting for him to do for so long now: tell everyone off.

Donut goes and finally, finally tells off everyone for how horribly that they have treated him. Sidelining him, belittling him, left him for dead, etc. And he doesn't hold back even a little. No innuendos. He fully curses, even dropping the F-bomb. He outright tells Carolina to shut up when she apologizes for breaking the universe. Yes, just told Carolina to shut up. Nd the best part? He calls his armor color pink when he mentions them making fun of him about it. Yes, no lightish-red people. He outright said pink, and he is owning it. And now, here we are after Donut died, tried to reunite with his friends, was the only one who gave a damn about saving time while everyone else fucked around, and then after his mistakes went out of his way to fix them, and what does he get? Sarge trying to suggest killing him with Shelia.

With all of that now said, Donut says that once he's explained how to time travel so that they can deal with Genkins, he's done. Everyone is left speechless and in shock, as Donut walks off. Wash tells them to go after him and to apologize immediately, which while they mumble about it, they all go off and do right away. Well... Sarge asks if they really can time travel first before Wash sends him on his way too. Hot damn, now that is how you end an episode.

Review

Okay.. so... I liked the episode, but God it's confused me so much. Let's get that part out of the way first.

Huggins being alive? Yeah, we all knew that at this point and her being made of light/information makes sense. I think most of us expected her parents to be alive after the last episode. They're... okay. You can see where Huggins gets her quirks form, but I think it's pretty clear that they've gone insane from being in the Black Hole for so long. They're mainly here for Huggins to find out how to go through time, which tbf Huggins did speculate about that in Episode 7 when debating her options on getting out of the 6th Century, so okay nice subtle foreshadowing. Muggins being Huggins brother, again, had little to no foreshadowing and comes off as weird since Muggins never referred to her as such, not even in his eulogy when he assumed her dead. He just called her 'friend'. IDK, that's very minor in the grand scheme of things.

But honestly this and Huggins other scenes just... has me confused. So... a black hole send her back to before the Big Bang? Yet her parents haven't tried to leave even though they can go through time? It kinda sounds like they were expecting Huggins so... maybe there's a reason? But this mainly makes me question the Everwhen and time travel. So... I assumed that the Everwhen was a simulation, but I guess not. It's legit the past. And Doc was also sent into it, even though he wasn't caught in the paradox. So how did Donut retain his memory? I know they said that he got brought back through Chrovos' essence, so is that why? How can the Reds and Blues shift through time when they haven't entered the Everwhen? Why was losing the Time Gun a big deal if they can just jump back to S16 Episode 14? How does a black hole causing time to loop make any sense at all? I just... I don't know anymore.

Okay... let's talk about something else that won't hurt my brain. Sister and Tucker... there's not much to talk about. Won't lie, I got a giggle out of the bizarre stories that Sister told Tucker just to fuck with him. My only real issue is that... didn't they resolve their issues at the end of S16? Then again I can see Sister still wanting some form of payback, so meh. Otherwise, no real opinion and I'm glad that we didn't drag out Tucker being out of the loop for too long. Donut just being so done with everything and going through the spiel as quickly as possible was definitely worth it. Oh and Doc is back... yeah calling it now, it's O'Malley pretending to be Doc. We saw that he can do it before in S16's finale...and depending on when he took over in S16 Episode 6. I could be wrong, but I don't know... I feel like something big is still waiting.

But enough of all that. Let us talk about Donut and the moment that we have all been waiting for. Now, I will say that the Reds anger over the betrayal is justified... somewhat. Sarge has zero room to talk considering his own actions in S15. Yeah, he did ultimately do the right thing and regret it, but he still did it and couldn't promise that he wouldn't again, so no fuck you, Sarge. You're great at speeches, but you have shit room to talk. Grif has far more justification in his reaction (helps that he wasn't threatening to kill Donut) because.. yeah if Donut didn't take The Hammer, they could have resolved this before anything happened. Mind you if none of them treated him like shit and outright called him 'an empty suit of armor' he may not have, but still Grif handled it pretty maturely I feel. And Simmons... actually he didn't do anything wrong and even asked Donut if he did save them all, so he's off the hook. My point is, yeah what Donut did was wrong, but remember why he did it: everyone treating him like shit. Sarge outright called him an empty suit of armor. Seriously man, what the Hell?

The reason that Donut's 'The Reason You Suck' Speech was so effective, aside from the previous buildup these past few episodes, is because... well, he's right. They mocked him about his pink armor, and even the standard Red one he had when he first showed up. They've always been nothing but annoyed and belittling of him. Sometimes it was justified, like when he showed up in S11 but send the pilot off. Other times, like Tucker asking why they would ever listen to him in S16 were just harsh. And yeah, in Recollection they did leave him for dead. Sure Simmons was concerned, but that didn't last long and none of them ever mentioned him or considered getting his body during S8 or S10 before they found him alive. There is plenty of canon evidence to support this, and it's something that fans have been pointing out for years. And even with the betrayal, the paradox is entirely on them, not Donut. They still chose to cause it, knowing full well what could happen, so they are just as responsible for their shit situation.

Yeah, Donut did betray the group and that was wrong. To some degree, he deserved being called out, hence why I'm more okay with Grif's reaction that Sarge being a hypocrite. And no, they don't know about Donut ultimately changing his mind and trying to stop Chrovos then and there, but was too late. But they weren't exactly allowing him to explain, as per usual, even with Wash backing him up. Which BTW, Thank God for Wash. He was fully on Donut's side, Donut didn't tell him to shut up when he apologized for the multiple shootings, and Wash immediately told the guys to go and apologize. It's the kind of support that Donut needs and I think the push form Wash, along with his own frustration, finally got him to stand up to the others and tell them off. But back to my point, Donut is justified in his anger. Donut is justified in wanting to leave once he's explained everything. If no one will ever give him any shred of decency or even let him explain how he tried to correct his mistakes, yet people like Wash and Sarge got forgiven with little argument, why the Hell should he stand by them?

Final Thoughts

This episode gave me a headache. I think it's so far my least favorite episode. But that being said, I can't call it bad. Huggins is alive, everyone (except Lopez) is back up to speed, and Donut finally, FINALLY got to tell everyone off for treating him like shit for so long. That moment alone made this episode a winner for me. What's going to happen now? Hell if I know, but I am ready for it! Migraine over time travel bullshit be damned!

#rvb #rvb17 #rvb spoilers #rvb reviews #callie reviews

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msmovingforward · 3 years

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Pride Versus Envy: RHONJ S11 E8

We open with shots of the women getting ready at both Melissa and Dolores’s Shore houses. Marge Sr. texts Margaret, informing her that she just got a laser treatment on her face, and she sends along a picture of her looking like Freddy Krueger. Joe Gorga slaps Melissa on her ass, as Melissa asks if Joe thinks dinner will be peaceful that night.

Back at Dolores’s house, Jen says that if Margaret starts with her, she’ll start with Margaret. Honestly, what is it with women named Jen on Bravo? I don’t like them. Jen Shah is going out in a blaze of fire on RHOSLC, and I would love to see something similar happen with Jennifer Aydin because she’s boring and annoying to me. There. I said it! OK? Sorry!

Back at the Gorgas’, the men are pregaming dinner in order to numb the trauma that is inevitably about to befall them when their wives start fighting. Melissa asks Margaret if she’s ready for a peaceful dinner.

In a confessional, Margaret says that if Jen starts with her, she will finish it. I love to see it.

The two parties arrive in separate vans at La Mondina restaurant and sit at separate tables. Men at one, women at the other. I just noticed that the vans have plastic wrap separating the passengers from the drivers, and I can’t help but wonder if this has always been the case to keep the drivers from crashing due to the imminent danger of stilettoes, hoop earrings, and pinot grigio cracking the windshield or if this is a coronavirus precaution.

Everyone at the women’s table orders a pear crusher martini, while the men considerately place their entire order at once. Because you know, it’s the HEIGHT of COVID when they’re filming, and this restaurant has probably just re-opened for the first time in two months, and most normal people are still horrified of the virus. These women are just scared of their botulinum toxin migrating. The men cheers with tequila shots to a “no bull shit guys night!”

Teresa wonders aloud how the celebration for Nonno will go, saying that he always wanted her and her brother to get along. We’re shown a flashback of Joe Gorga screaming at Teresa the previous night and slamming his engorged fists on the table. Apparently, there was no fracture, by the way. If Nonno is sober enough in whatever afterlife God saw fit to place him to witness that fiasco, I’m sure he’s beaming with pride.

Over dinner, Joe Gorga again brings up the prank phone call Teresa made in Lake George, informing him that Melissa had been cheating on him with a server. Joe claims that the joke must have some sort of “life.” In confessional, Teresa wonders why Joe keeps bringing it up, wondering if something really is going on in their marriage.

The food comes out and several people had ordered octopus, so everyone jokes about “octopussy” for what seems like an eternity. Remember Octomom from 2009? She had an octopussy! Melissa starts giving Teresa dating advice, saying to remember what it’s like to have a man around, passive aggressively saying loudly enough so Joe can hear that he sucks because he thinks she’s too independent. Yes, Teresa, the secret to a happy relationship is to take advice from the passive aggressive woman who’s currently miscommunicating with her husband right before your eyes! And the thing she’s telling you is that she’s basically unhappy and feels like a kept woman. Sound advice, sooouuund advice. Dolores tells Teresa to pay attention to red flags. Like living and spending all your time with your ex husband and not your current boyfriend, Dolores? I’d be surprised if Teresa knows what the term red flag means. Jen gives the advice not to let a man curse at her, and we get my favorite sonic boom sound effect because this is not actually dating advice at all, but in fact shade towards Margaret because she yelled at Joe Benigno the previous night.

Marge says, “So do you think Joe should leave me because I yelled at him last night?” We are shown a flashback to Margaret screaming, “Did you ever hear it from anybody in town? Tell me right now!” Honestly, it wasn’t really that bad. Jen’s a bitch. Get her and her sixteen bathrooms out of this franchise. Please!

Jen responds to Margaret, saying, “Yeah that is a red flag. I don't talk derogatory to my husband. I was shocked.” Teresa is probably getting excited at this point that they’re going to see the running of the bulls because her brain can’t handle the idea of a symbolic red flag. Also, it’s a red flag what you told us last week about how you sat, scantily clad in a Turkish cafe while your mother told you to shut your mouth because men don’t like women who talk too much, Jen. It’s a red flag that you slut shamed Margaret after she shared that she’d been coerced into sleeping with her boss when she was 20 years old. READ A FUCKIN’ BOOK, JEN. IT’S 2021.

Over at the men’s table, Joe B explains that he and Margaret fight, but it’s always over in ten minutes. Joe G responds, “Yeah. You wear the G-string. She wears the pants.” OK, Gorga, enough! Where do you buy your underwear? The roided out kids’ section? They must have that in New Jersey right? It’s in every strip mall next to the breakfast place that sells pork roll, egg, and cheese sandwiches.

Jen tells Marge that she is “no stranger to meannness...” (followed by another BOOM!), “to say that my husband is my meal ticket.” Can it be mean if it’s true though, Jen? Like tell me, what exactly are your SKILLS? In what labor market would you be able to support yourself?

Marge retorts that Jen’s only “aspiration is to live the way off your husband.” Jen responds that her only focus is her family, and Jackie says in confessional that sometimes having a career was easier for her than raising children. Marge says it was wrong of Jen to bring up what she told the women in confidence on camera about how she has slept with her bosses in the past. Jen claims that Marge never said it was a me too thing and that Marge made it seem like she was intentionally sexing it up for her bosses as a young woman. Marge accuses Jen of victim blaming, and says that Jen has a perception problem. Melissa chimes in, pointing out that using this against Margaret now is a huge violation of girl code. Jen questions if it’s such a big deal why Marge is going to put it in a book for the world to read. Marge advises Jen to read the book, or better yet listen to the audio, because Jen is an idiot and lazy and probably can’t read.

In the vans on the way home, Melissa and Joe Gorga get in the following stupid fight:

Joe G: Melissa, you gonna wait for your husband? Mel: NO! Joe: Holy shit. You don't wait for me? Mel: Why am I waitin' for you? You're right here, bro. Chill!

JOE slams van door. There is another boom sound effect.

Mel: What are you mad about? Joe G: I'm not mad about nothin'. Mel: Did I do something wrong? Joe: No. Mel: Tell me if I did. Joe: I would just like my wife to wait for me. I mean you just walk away like you don't even have a husband. Mel: Wait. Wait. Joe: Cause when my wife takes off-- Mel: I'm sorry I took off. I'm the host. That's like crazy. Joe: Alright from now on you just go by yourself while I just walk in the back.

Joe clearly doesn’t like all this independence Melissa has now with Envy. (Seriously, does this store really make any money though? Not for nothing, Joe, but I think your crooked house flipping business is still a more solid source of income). Melissa says Joe is spoiled and that she’s sick of kissing his ass. Joe says to be careful what Melissa says or she’ll never see him again. (What a great little narcissist he is!) The two separate ways, as they arrive back at the Gorgas’ Shore house.

Teresa has a very boring conversation with Audriana on the phone during the van ride back to Dolores’s.

Joe Benigno tries to therapize Joe Gorga Jersey-style, along with Evan back at the Gorgas’. I have to say Joe Benigno seems like such a genuinely great guy, and I’m so happy for him and Margaret. He may not be able to pull together a funhouse-themed living room for his wife over four seasons, but damn if he’s not patient, kind, and empathetic. Joe Gorga shares that the change in their marriage bothers him.

Meanwhile upstairs, Jackie and Margaret check on Melissa, who asks what she’s doing wrong. They both assure her that if she were doing something wrong, they would tell her. If there’s one thing you can always count on a Housewife for, it’s to point out others’ flaws. Margaret explains that “[Joe Gorga] is very sensitive. He took you walking in front of him to another level.”

Back downstairs, Joe G’s narcissism is showing again. He tells Joe B, “ You know I wanna be loved. Is that a problem? OK If it is a problem, Whatever!” UGH YES JOE YOUR ONLY FLAW IS YOU WANT TO BE LOVED. IT WASN’T TOTALLY CRAZY THE SHIT YOU JUST PULLED IN THE VAN AT ALL!

This is juxtaposed with Melissa saying to Marge and Jackie, “ He's a very old school mentality. Like, when we started our marriage, I was 24 years old. I did whatever Joe told me to do. He was someone who was jealous. He was someone who was saying, 'Don't move. Stand right here,' and I thought that that was amazing.” We are then given a confessional of Melissa saying, “ Growing up, there was cheating rumors out there about my dad. I watched my mother cry plenty of tears, so the fact that Joe was all about family and wanted to be together all the time was like oh my god. You're everything I've been looking for.” This is truly sad and hits home for me because I can definitely relate to being trapped in a narcissistic relationship that I thought was right at one time, and eventually I saw the light. My heart breaks for Melissa, but it blossoms for her storyline. Thank God! Finally! Melissa continues to tell Marge and Jackie that Joe makes her feel guilty for having a business.

Joe G continues his psychoanalysis with Joe B, saying that his father shaped him to be the man he is. NOW we’re getting somewhere. Nonno could barely mold Play-do, let alone a human child, but honestly, that’s not Melissa’s problem. He says that now that Melissa is famous and successful she’s forgotten who she is, and he dismisses Joe B and Evan. Again, we need to take Jen’s advice from earlier, ironically. PAY ATTENTION TO THESE RED FLAGS, MELISSA! Don’t raise more Joe and Teresa Giudices!

Jackie tells Melissa that Joe G got used to Melissa being his “little bitch,” and now Melissa is not old school anymore. I’m beginning to like Jackie. Joe walks in to talk to Melissa, and Jackie and Margaret excuse themselves, as Melissa starts yelling. Joe says it’s over (but he’s a narcissist, so it’s not), and Melissa sticks to her guns, saying she’s the best version of herself that he’s going to get.

The next morning Joe B and Evan do some manly stretching outside, and Melissa confesses that she hasn’t spoken to Joe since the previous night. She also tells us that it’s very therapeutic for her to ride a giant yellow bicycle at the Jersey Shore. She leaves, and cameras do not follow. Ugh it’s always two steps forward and one step back for this one. Bill weirdly tells Frank that Bill wants Frank’s physique, so he orders a scooped out bagel for breakfast over at Dolores’s. Frank flexes his roided out biceps. Ick. Back at the Gorgas’, Joe G gives a terrible blanket apology, saying that he’s sorry if he ruined anybody’s night last night. OK, but how about your marriage? How about you knew you were being an asshole, Joey? Melissa finally backs down, and she takes everything on herself once again, essentially saying it would be her fault if Joe G ruins the memorial that night because Melissa forced the issue. Melissa confesses that she doesn’t feel good about leaving things unresolved, but the weekend is about Nonno.

Back at Dolores’s everyone is putting on white for Nonno’s memorial party, which I thought was odd because generally black is the funeral color, but this is far from the oddest choice I’ve ever seen made on a reality show set in New Jersey. Teresa is serving Beyonce’s Lemonade realness in a lemon-print dress. She says dimly, “Maybe someone will wanna suck my lemons?” There’s a ding sound effect.

Everyone gets on boats and rides to a restaurant for a luncheon. Joe G says he and Melissa had sex. Ugh. Sex fixes everything, doesn’t it?

At the restaurant Marge orders unsweetened iced tea and not iced coffee. Joe Benigno is wearing a pineapple print shirt. C’mon, Teresa, lemons are sooo 2016! Pineapples are all the rage now! Teresa says that her lemons are a shoutout to the Capri region of Italy, and I’m reminded fondly of Dorit Kemsley’s Capri room at Bucca Di Beppo. Melissa tells Teresa about her and Joe’s fight. Teresa says that Melissa needs to give Joe a lot of attention. She confesses that Melissa needs to be more grateful because it’s hard to find a man who actually loves you. Yikes this family is fucked up! Teresa’s honest opinion is that it’s a big bonus if your husband actually loves you.

Melissa begins noticing a lot of phone calls coming from a woman named “Realtor Giselle” on Joe G’s phone. It turns out to be a hilarious prank that Joe Gorga is playing to get back at his wife for having Teresa call and say Melissa was cheating on him in Lake George. What fuckin’ timing. At least frickin’ love bomb Melissa, you engorged, blood-sucking tick! Melissa says that if Joe ever cheated on her she would, “Throw [him] in the fuckin’ bay and leave [him] there.”

Joe Gorga confesses that he’s glad Melissa is jealous enough to call Giselle back. I think I’m gonna hurl. GET HELP, JOE. YOU NEED HELP!

Nonno’s party looks beautiful, minus a half-finished collage of photos on a half-assed step and repeat. Someone brings Joe Gorga some spray paint art of Nonno smoking a cigar with his shirt open. Gross, but accurate. Johnnie Walker either sponsored this party or Nonno’s whole life. Along with another canvas painting of Nonno, BIll Aydin gives Joe G a bottle of Johnnie Walker.

Dolores says her uterus hurts, as Frankie arrives, looking like a melting Ken Doll.

Two swans swim by in the bay, and everyone claims they’re Nonno and Nonna.

Margaret is impressed with the charcuterie board.

Teresa gives a tearful speech, saying that her father was very affectionate, and that’s where she and Joe G get it from. No he wasn’t. He was a weird slurry drunk. No you two are not affectionate... Moving on!

Gia reads a speech from her phone, calling Nonno the “glue” that held the family together. If by glue she meant the kind you sniff, then yes. Everyone throws white flowers into the bay. We’re shown a confessional of Teresa crying about how close they were juxtaposed by a flashback of Teresa asking Nonno how much he’s had to drink during season 8′s Easter episode. Joe says that Nonno always told Joe to take care of Teresa, and everyone does a shot of Johnnie Walker Blue.

I spoke ill of the deceased in this post. I just don’t buy what they’re selling about Nonno for one damn second. Joe and Teresa are great TV and terrible people. Terrible siblings usually tend to be raised by terrible parents. These opinions are mine, and I’m entitled to them.

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mittensmorgul · 4 years

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Hello. Is there a chance that you know when the decision about Chuck beeing the villain of the entire show was made? And more specifically was season 9 written with this point of view?

Hi there! I’m sorry this has been sitting in my inbox for a few days, but I’ve been turning it over and over in my head trying to figure out how to actually answer. Because I don’t think this is something that was like the writers just suddenly decided, and began plotting everything else in the story around that fact, you know? And while it might be interesting to puzzle over, it doesn’t affect how I personally engage with the show.

I’ve written many times about the difference between a Watsonian Reading of a text versus a Doylist Reading of a text, and why sometimes understanding the Doylist might inform the watsonian read you’re willing to accept, so I can understand the interest in wondering if there was a moment in the writing room where it was declared that Chuck Was Not A Good Guy, and that the entire story should be told with that underlying assumption. For me, personally, it’s been clear since 4.18 that Chuck was not really a good guy, long before it was revealed that he was really God.

Was this always the intent of the writers? We just don’t know. I don’t think it matters. He always came across to me (ESPECIALLY in 5.22) as a self-important dick... but I know a lot of people really love his monologue on everything, and have always had rather warm feelings about it. So was their intent to make him seem smugly self-satisfied from the start, or is that an angle that later showrunners and writers seized upon and played up? Does it even matter when the story has made it clear now that Chuck has been the villain of the entire show from the start?

I understand how my personal opinion from the start here has probably made it easier for me to roll with the more recent canon revelations about Chuck than it would be for folks who have always believed that Chuck was a Good Guy from the start, that God would ultimately be on their side, or that if God wasn’t actively helping them, it was only because he was testing them or having them prove themselves to themselves or whatever. I understand people have clung to the notion that he was essentially still a good guy, even through all the shadiness. I just... could never see him that way.

ESPECIALLY after s11. I don’t think Chuck’s characterization has really changed since then. It’s just been... unmasked for what it really is. I think everything Chuck The Prophet was saying back in 4.18 about being a cruel and capricious god was... pretty on the nose. Then again, I’m fairly sure that Andrew Dabb took over the showrunning duties in mid-s11, and began setting up what he knew would eventually become the series endgame run, with Chuck as the final big bad. So that run up to the end of s11... was Dabb’s doing...

I don’t really know how much Chuck’s character (his fictional being, in addition to just... his personality, like how we’d talk about the character of real people, the quality of his essential being or whatever) played a part in the writing from 5.22 when he “vanished” through 10.05 when he appeared to tell Marie “not bad” at the end of her musical, and then again from that point until he dragged Metatron to the bar at the end of the universe in 11.20. I’m fairly certain that as soon as they began writing s11 and determined that Amara would be “God’s sister” that they knew that Chuck would have to make an appearance eventually. And the entire storyline of the MoC having been derailed and repurposed in mid s10 likely facilitated the escalation of the story. But again... I’ve written heckloads of stuff about s10, the accordion plot, how Carver had been writing toward a series finale in 10 until they got word they’d be renewed and wanted to keep going, and jerked the whole story onto a completely different narrative track in the back half of s10. As a seasonal arc, s10 will forever be my least favorite, because it’s just... a mess. Yes, even s6 comes across more coherent than s10, just looking at the overarching narrative structure. Episode wise, s10 probably wins for a few stellar entries, but yeeeeeesh, it’s a structural disaster overall.

But I have a tag for that, and lots and lots of posts, and Carver himself saying that this was exactly what happened there, so... I think it’s probably valid to say that the writers really hadn’t even thought much about Chuck until the MoC became about the Darkness in 10.23, and then they had to invent a whole mythology to bring in this super-powerful God-level power to the story, and “God’s sister!” sounded like a solid plan...

So I’d say that Chuck was being set up at that point to have to answer for his “original crime” of locking up the Darkness, you know? Though I don’t know how much of how it played out by the end of s11 was Carver’s doing, or Dabb’s. I am fairly certain that from the moment Dabb took over (quietly mid-s11, and possibly knowing he’d be tapped to take over before then and beginning to lay down tracks toward his eventual story plan, and then completely by 11.23) that what we’re seeing play out in s15 was always his intent.

But in s9? I don’t think Chuck was really even on any of the writers’ radar, at all. Even if they all were working from the perspective that he was God in the Supernatural universe. I just don’t think it affected what they were writing, you know?

Well, I mean, there’s earlier episodes where God was referenced... I mean 5.16 Dark Side of the Moon (hey, written by Dabb!) where we learned that God knew all about their problems, but he didn’t think it was HIS problem... I mean from that moment on, it’s really difficult to think of God as a charcacter who’s on their side, you know? And the end of the story he’d been content with was Sam in Hell for eternity, and Dean miserable in suburbia for eternity, and Cas probably being subjugated by Heaven and the Apocalypse starting again anyway... I mean... ew...

Or in 6.20, when Cas prayed to God, begging for a sign, begging for help, to do the right thing, he got NOTHING in return, zip, zilch. He did the only thing he could, and in retrospect, wasn’t releasing the leviathans something Chuck was probably deliriously happy about? More monsters and mayhem! A beloved hero character becoming the villain in the process! I mean, in s9 when Metatron was “Playing God” and trying to write his own story of the universe, isn’t this exactly the story he wanted to create too? Kinda on the nose there, even if they weren’t actively portraying Chuck himself as the bad guy here. They were explicitly telling us that Metatron was literally rewriting God’s playbook as self-insert fanfic.

So even if they weren’t actively writing Chuck as the big bad, they used Metatron-- the scribe of God-- to fulfill that function. In 11.20, when Chuck talks with Metatron about his turn playing God:

CHUCK: You know, you really are a terrific editor, Metatron.METATRON: (Chuckles.) Well, I was a terrible writer. A worse god. It's good I've got something going for me.CHUCK: (Takes off his glasses and stops typing.) Yeah, you know, I have to say, I didn't see the whole evil-turn thing coming.METATRON: Mm-hmm.

CHUCK: (Chuckling.) Why did you try to be me?METATRON: That was just a sad, pathetic cry for attention.CHUCK: (Chuckling.) Who's attention were you trying to get?METATRON: Yours.

He takes all of this and tries to turn it around, to deflect blame from himself as if he hadn’t literally done everything Metatron did, and more.

METATRON: It wasn't just the saps who were praying to you. The angels prayed, too. And so did I – every day.CHUCK: I know.METATRON: You want to sell the best-selling autobiography of all time? You explain to me – Tell me why you abandoned me. Us.CHUCK: Because you disappointed me. You all disappointed me.METATRON: (Stands up and looks at CHUCK with wet eyes.) No, look. I know I'm a disappointment, but you're wrong about humanity. They are your greatest creation because they're better than you are.(CHUCK starts to look more guilty as he looks at METATRON.)METATRON: Yeah, sure, they're weak and they cheat and steal and... destroy and disappoint. But they also give and create and they sing and dance and love. And above all, they never give up! But, you do!

But even after Metatron’s sacrifice, even after everything nearly falls apart, Chuck STILL tries to weasel out of responsibility for anything, still tries to deflect and minimize, even blames Amara for why he had to lock her away in the first place. And that hasn’t changed about him one whit, from the start right through the present. It’s always been an essential part of his character, and he’s been called out on it repeatedly in s15 by Becky, by Amara, by Sam, by Dean... probably by Michael, too. Like... this is how he’s always been, it’s how he’s always been written, even if the intent had never been to explicitly unmask him as the ultimate big bad of the entire series until the end of s11.

Like Amara accused him in 11.22:

Chuck: I'm sorry. For this, for everything.Amara: An apology at last. What's sorry to me? I spent millions of years crammed in that cage... alone... and afraid, wishing -- begging for death, because of you! And what was my crime, brother?!Chuck: The world needed to be born! And you wouldn't let me! Amara, you give me no choice.Amara: That's your story. Not mine. The real reason you banished me, why I couldn't be allowed to exist... you couldn't stand it. No, we were equals. We weren't great or powerful, because we stood only in relation to each other. You think you made the archangels to bring light? No. You made them to create lesser beings, to make you large, to make you Lord. It was ego! You wanted to be big!

and he admitted to Becky in 15.04:

CHUCK: Things were said. Uh… Now I’ve found msyself low on, um… resources. I went to ask my sister for help, and she rejected me. ‘Cause she sucks. And now I’m just… stuck. So, I thought I’d come see you, my number-one fan. And, I don’t know, see if you can help make me feel big again.BECKY: So, you want me to… fluff you?CHUCK: I mean, no.BECKY: You do. You thought you could just come back to me, your pathetic ex, your number-one fan, and get what you’ve always gotten from me… a nice big crank on your ego.

Meanwhile, in 11.22, Amara had asked him if he wouldn’t change, why should she? Yet... she DID change, beginning in 11.23 when she reconciled with Chuck. Only... he never did change at all.

So... to finally circle back to your question again... I don’t know if it’s relevant what the writers were thinking about Chuck and any random potential for him to return to the story in any capacity, let alone as God, let alone as the eventual Ultimate Series Big Bad back when they were writing s9. I don’t even think God/Chuck was on their radar at all, because I don’t think the entire MoC storyline was crafted with the end result that it would be the key to the Darkness’s prison. At least not way back in s9 when the MoC was dreamed up. It only ever evolved into that because of the narrative disaster of the s10 plot accordion. Which is why, while I fucking HATE s10 for it, I can’t be all that mad about what it unwittingly brought about, either.

Heck I hope any of this makes any sense whatsoever. This is one of those subjects that’s just like “insert key, wind mittens up, watch her go” :’D

#chuck's process #dabb vs cars #carver era #mittens makes peace with s10 via dabb's spitewriting of s12: an ongoing saga #Anonymous

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mittensmorgul · 7 years

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Why do you think Metatron got a redemptive death when character after character of Actually Good People gets spit on and fridged in the most horrid or nonsensical ways?

I’ve been sitting on this message for a while, because I wanted to do this reply justice and not just add wank to wank for the sake of being wanky... despite there being a bit of that feeling behind my personal reaction to a few of these horrid and nonsensical deaths you describe.

Eileen. Charlie.

Right? I have no defense for EITHER of these deaths. I personally feel they were both not only pointless, but horrifying in the way they were handled. I have written a hell of a lot on BOTH of them, and I don’t think adding more about either of them here would really serve any purpose. (but heck it does prove the point that meta writers aren’t endless wells of nothing but positivity, or attempts to explain away every instance of terrible writing, or defend the indefensible... I think pretty much all of us agree that neither of these deaths were written or handled well... AT ALL)

So let’s focus on Metatron for a moment. Because I do get why he got a “redemptive death.” It’s not something you can compare to Eileen’s death and say that she “deserved” to live more than Metatron, because she was a “good person.” That’s not how storytelling works. It all comes down to how the character was paralleled and what they metaphorically represented IN CONTEXT, in the larger narrative.

Metatron had set himself up to “play god,” to BECOME the new god. Going all the way back to the first time we met him back in s8, we see him holed away on Earth hoarding stories. Studying and experiencing creation and humanity in a second-hand sort of way, through OTHER PEOPLE’S STORIES. Now that we have canon confirmation that Chuck was God all along, the parallel only becomes stronger.

(Recall the last time a character attempted to “become god,” Cas took on the purgatory souls against EVERYONE’S better judgment, and personally paid the price for his hubris, despite it taking pretty much all of s7 for that storyline to play out... and the fact that he was “dead” throughout most of it, and is STILL seeking redemption for everything he did during the s6-s7 era... that repentance and redemption is still a core motivation for everything Cas has done since... and the cause of his depression and self-loathing that was enough to motivate him to say yes to Lucifer in s11, and to be vulnerable to influence STILL at the end of s12... Playing God on this show always has negative consequences. But back to Metatron...)

Compare Chuck’s entire narrative arc to Metatron’s, and Metatron summed it up perfectly in 11.20:

Metatron: You know, I was a crappy, terrible god. My work was pretty much a lame, half-assed rewrite of your greatest hits.

Metatron was a plagiarist, literally in text that was his purpose. He was the personification of a literary device. He was a cheap knockoff version of the real thing. AND HE KNEW IT ALL ALONG. But as the plagiarist, his role in text was to serve as a mirror for the real author of creation, and as such he needed to be the sacrifice for the TRUE story to play out. The reconciliation of light and dark couldn’t have happened without it, not because Metatron the terrible bad guy earned redemption, but because Metatron the literary device had served his function in the story. So fucking meta.

As for Eileen, she served a function as a narrative mirror to Cas. I mean, I think that’s pretty much how most of the meta we wrote about her after 12.17 went, right? Unfortunately her part in the story was handled rather ham-fistedly, and I am still not over that and still FURIOUS about it, but with gritted teeth I can see how the mirror played out in 12.23. And like with Charlie I have made it less horrible in my own mind with fix-it fic and utter fucking denial. For now it’ll have to do... >.>

The other death in s12 that a lot of people screamed about was oddly Mick Davies. But again, the character he was most paralleled to throughout the season was Cas. Especially once he even adopted a spiffy version of Cas’s wardrobe... all the while the BMoL were paralleled to Heaven and the corruption of the angelic hierarchy. Yet Mick got a taste of what life without “the code” could mean, and for the first time in his life was beginning to think for himself about that “grey area.” He brought his concerns to the BMoL and was immediately killed for disobedience, for having been “corrupted” from their true mission. He never even had a chance, and we were all looking at the screen thinking he was an idiot for bringing such dissension so blatantly to his bosses, knowing nothing good could come of it. But hey, decades of what essentially amounts to brainwashing by the BMoL isn’t that easy to overcome.

*stops self from writing thousands of words comparing it to MK Ultra and how this was directly demonstrated by Mick’s flashbacks to Kendricks AND fully illustrated by how Toni blatantly brainwashed Mary, and how ALL of that was a blatant parallel to both what Cas experienced for most of his existence in Heaven via Naomi’s “fixing” him AND the crack in his chassis that Jack was able to exploit to his own advantage in 12.19, because it’s fucking inescapable when you lay it all out blatantly like that... that his loss of agency has literally been the exposition and the narrative push that’s driven Cas through every bit of character development he’s ever undergone... and how Cas and Mary and been on parallel narrative journeys for the entirety of s12 and there was never a textual or subtextual demonstration that either had veered from that blatant parallel... bleh... I digressed anyway...*

But yeah, narrative parallels, exposition we’re intended to apply to said parallels, blah blah blah... Sometimes “good characters” are thrown under the bus. It sucks.

Sorry I kinda ran off down tangents...

#spn 12.19 #spn 12.17 #spn 9.18 #spn 11.20 #spn 12.23 #spn 12.20 #spn 12.21 #wank adjacent #i should probably tag this better >.>#this is how stories work #Anonymous

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