#i just really disagree with the way i keep hearing ppl talk about him. | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

dairy-farmer · 6 months

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Sorry if you've already touched on this, but what are your thoughts about the discourse/discussion about Tim in the comics and Tim from the lens of A03/fan fiction?

For example, I hear a lot from old comic fans about how the series with Tim dating Bernard was doomed to fail bc 'the writer wrote him like her fanfiction version of Tim and not the real character'. There was a lot of discourse with canonical announcing Tim as queer, and that's kinda all these older comic book fans seem to keep coming back to. Idk, there just kinda seems to be an underlying feeling of misogyny towards the female writers and anti lgtbq vibes that it's hard to hear like a real arguement against the series.

I guess as a long time a03/Fandom person, I'm so used to just creating another little reality for the things I disagree or want to explore with a character, that it's strange to see people so upset that Canon doesn't flow the way the want.

it's no problem!! and i haven't really touched on the newer comics all that much mostly because i also don't particularly like them, not for any specific reason-they're decent enough but i don't really think they're 'tim'-but i do know what you're talking about. on twitter and tumblr i see a lot of different takes regarding tim and how he's written in this newer robin series.

for starters: i get what you're talking about where criticism of the comics might partly because of anti-lgbt attitude. especially since tim getting confirmed to be bisexual made A LOT of people mad (including ppl who arent homophobic but are mad that it wasn't THEIR favorite robin who got confirmed queer like dick, jason, or damian etc). comic bros and even casual comic fans who had never even heard of tim or even gave a shit about him were now furious. and while there might be ppl with genuine critiques- some of hatred of the way tim is written in the newer comics you really have to take it with a grain of salt because it very well could be comic bros hating because "robin isn't gay".

same with the writer, meghan fitzmartin. in general, women DO have an uphill battle when it comes to working in comics because it is very male dominated. and it's no secret that a lot of comic fans are opposed to women writing in comics. so misogyny, and even jealousy also plays a role with how much criticism is ACTUALLY warranted. but that doesn't mean a woman in comics isn't allowed to be criticized if they do a bad job or do a botched execution when their job is supposed to be making good, enjoyable, stories that do justice to the characters. i do think meghan may have some decentish ideas but whether she genuinely has the writing chops to deliver on those big ideas is well...iffy. but then again i genuinely don't keep tabs on comic writers or they're projects so maybe that will change.

when it comes to the critique of tim being written like a "fanfiction" version and not a "real" version of him i do see what they mean.

when I think of fanon tim I think of all the mischaracterizations that have been popularized. a coffee obsessed gremlin that doesn't sleep who is deeply insecure and agonizes over his place in the family, thinking he doesn't belong. people LIKE that tim is portrayed like that (in fanfiction) otherwise that characterization wouldn't be so pervasive in fics (there's also the possibility that a lot of ff writers DON'T know any better because many don't read comics but they do read fics and so they base their portrayals solely off what they read in fics resulting in this racoon eyed, coffee loving character who they believe to be an actual portrayal when it's really just someone's idea/exaggerated interpretation of tim).

i really don't see a lot of that in meghan's writing, the issues with tim's writing with her are different. if anything WFA is the one that really have the 'written as a ff character' vibe. but that series is also SUPPOSED to be deeply unserious as a fun slice of life universe where nothing goes wrong for anyone ever as a soothing balm for the oftentimes depressing stories in batman comics.

but in meghan's writing I also don't see a lot of what i consider to be core tim values. is she the best writer for tim? no i don't really think so. but there is a certain degree of understanding for his character. I see the comics and I can recognize that it's tim. so it's not offensively OC.

a lot of complaints seem to stem from his relationship with bernard being too much of a focus. people say how tim does too much thinking about him when...he was a lot worse in the 90s with steph. I remember getting so irritated when entire comics of robin would be narrated by steph or about her, i'd be like 'I want to read about ROBIN and his adventures, not steph, why is she even relevant?'. but tim's relationships to other people are a core part about him so you just have to take it.

the part that i think is justified in critique is in talking about whether her writing of bernard dowd is good. that is a much easier thing to answer. and its that its not good writing. in fact it's a pretty bad, inaccurate portrayal of him given how he was written when we first knew him. he's sort of been...sanded down? kind of remade into some new, almost unrecognizable character that fits into what she believes would be a nice, wholesome, gay partner for tim. which is an issue for me because we have seen and know what tim is like in relationships. tim had tension with, disagreed with, got annoyed with, fought and argued with his other partners like stephanie and ariana. but he also enjoyed himself and was happy with them. there was a balance there of good and bad because tim's unique situation of being robin made it so there had to be good and bad. with bernard it's all very passive and easy. they don't argue, they don't really fight, or have any struggles in their relationship when trying determine compatibility. avoiding tension in the relationship when tim has a track record of it makes it almost seem like she's afraid of the risk of portraying a gay relationship in anything less than a golden light. which is not good writing. BUT it is also very NEW. so maybe that will change (but there's a similar problem with jon kent and his bf so idk)? i personally believe kon would've been a more ideal partner with their shared history, chemistry, tension, the fact that fans have wanted it for decades, and the fact that it would've been such a good addition to the arc of self acceptance for kon's character. and many of the issues that tim being with bernard wouldn't be a thing because tim and kon famously don't see eye to eye 100 percent of the time and so their relationship would struggle and grow as they go from friends to romantic partners.

ultimately in my opinion to write a truly good tim drake you need to be able to accurately portray the thing that made him such a great robin: his heart of gold. tim cares about doing the right thing SO much. he cares about helping people. he's not some cold, unfeeling calculated computer who uses people as pawns and abandons his morals at the slightest inconvenience or seduction to the 'dark side'. and he's not some coffee drinking hacker man that is 20 steps ahead and smug about it.

tim worries about people, he's upset at injustice, feels guilt at not being able to save people, is judgy, sometimes a brat, sarcastic, gets angry at people for throwing their lives away, gets very invested in things that catch his interest, is too curious for his own good, nosy. he lies through his teeth and then bats his eyes in sweet as pie innocence. will think VERY rude thoughts about people but will bite his tongue because he's a nice boy👼 but sometimes things slip out. he is somehow simultaneously able to be the 🥺 and 😈 emoji at the same time. his odds of making bad decisions increase by 100 fold if in the company of other stupid teenagers.

now i write tim as a very exaggerated version of that core self. that's what a lot of ff authors do. they choose a handful of traits they like best about him and spin entire fics about it. i don't think writing tim as a fanfiction version of himself is a bad thing because some fanfic is genuinely better than the source material and that comes from being very good at understanding the character. the tim of today can't be written the same way he was in his golden age, the 90s, because a lot of his struggles and hurdles that he dealt with in those comics are over. they're done. tim can't be 30 years old and still wondering if he's doing a shit job as robin. tim IS a good robin and he should be able to acknowledge that (funnily enough one of his clear acknowledgements of that is often wiped away by fics- that being the titans tower scene where jason asks if tim thinks he's the better robin and tim, without hesitation, says yes) a lot of older fans are clinging to problems that tim has already resolved. he's not thirteen and insecure about his abilities. he's not on his first relationship with someone (but he is in his first relationship with a boy). he's not still learning how to navigate his relationship with batman and the rest of the family or struggling to come to terms with his civilian and caped life. do some of those things still trouble him on occasion? yes but they're not the main focus anymore.

tim has to have new problems, new challenges, new growth.

i had some hope for new tim comics.

would i like to have seen more tim centric material or at least good stories. and often times in the new tim comics tim was exactly the same at the end of the issue as he was at the beginning. tim struggling with his identity is something that made an appearance in 90s comics a lot but I think for the newer ones that it would've been better received/more interesting if it were...written better?

idk. i don't know a single comic fan that loved every detail of their fav's comics. was it the best run? no. but it was okay enough i guess. it was lukewarm, not standing ovation worthy but also nobody should be throwing tomatoes at the performers either, it just earned a polite clap of acknowledgement which i don't think is a very bad thing but still i hope we get something better!

#answered asks #asks #anonymous

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scorchedhearth · 7 months

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omg if u feel like elaborating i would LOVE 2 hear more about how kyle would get the red ring in ur head <3

while i understand why the comics have kyle master the red ring thru atrocitus making him angry, after all its the most logical way to do that if u don't care about character arcs and growth, i still find it deeply stupid and disagree with that choice, like most of his white lantern arc choices

atrocitus, especially in his early appearances, is calm and collected, he has bursts of rage, of course, but often talks out his ideas, he explains more than once his motivations and organizes the red lanterns and guides them pretty rationally, in addition to all the times he spends thinking and being alone with his thoughts. he's smart and knows how to think, and he wouldn't need long to get how to draw rage out of kyle

i think the best way to appeal to kyle is thru love and personal involvement. he is a hero and cares deeply and wants to save ppl but tragedy makes him sad, not angry. the only time we see him truly mad and out of himself with anger is when his family and friends are hit, alex, terry, his mom, etc. his scariest moments are when he forgoes any of his self-imposed limits to avenge the ppl he loves, which is the whole point of the red ring in the first place, not just mindless anger but the anger of the victims seeking justice

i don't think atrocitus showing him a bunch of ppl dying in conflicts would do it. kyle would be sad, and would want to involve himself and do something, frustrated he can't, angry, but it wouldn't strike him deep enough to be mad with rage, even with atrocitus keeping him from acting, he would be angry at atrocitus himself but 20 min in an armlock is really not enough to make him or anyone feel truly powerless.

it would not be enough to unlock his rage and let him tap into it: every single red lantern has been created because of terrible injustices that have been inflicted on them or their lives, not nondescript or tragedies that do not involve them directly

in my perfect kyle white lantern run, atrocitus would not even try brute force with him, he would know kyle's reputation and would pick it out from talking with him for five minutes. instead, he would take him away and put him on his altar and do some magic, get inside his own head and pick at all those moments of ugly, cold, devastating rage that overtook him in his past and make him understand that rage is a powerful tool, not just something to fight and get over (that's where we hit a roadblock with the concept of the rings and strictly divided emotions, u cannot only feel one, they're intertwined, but that's another topic, because once again just like everything for kyle, his anger is linked to his love and grief)

kyle does accept his anger, especially in his later stories, and does work with it, but it's never for its sake, he pushes thru and leaves it behind and tries to calm down and get himself under control. another point is that kyle does not want to be angry, he does not seek it out and will try to remain calm in situations until something beyond his control tips the balance and angers him beyond control (see examples above) and we see how being in that state tires him out. so another thing would be for atrocitus to show him how anger can keep the fire burning, not just start it, can be a useful tool, and how to dreg up the painful memories and feelings and channel them

my vision is kyle on his altar, atrocitus digging his knife inside him and drawing out blood to use for his magic, it would involve kyle living through those memories of anger but atrocitus not seeing them, he would stand by his side and guide him thru it all like those meditation podcasts do. he would tell him about his own ring, how he feels maddening rage every minute of every day about what happened to his family and how he channels that anger, not the love or sorrow he felt and feels but the white-hot burning point of his anger that keeps him walking, keeps him fighting, how the fire keeps him alive, the desires to take revenge and serve out justice that was never met being his way to honor the memory of those unjustly killed, that forgiving will not bring them back just like vengeance won't, but that there must be consequences dealt to right the balance (and maybe even meet with other lanterns with their own perspective, like that one red lantern who doesn't agree, or bleez who challenges atrocitus on that view)

just, conversations about what anger means to each individual, and how kyle comes to face his own capacity for it when he spent so long avoiding it and seeking peaceful and rational outcomes, sometimes working against his emotional desires (especially in the arcs before his white lantern and how the corps fell apart, how he tried to follow glc logic and was failed by them)

anger being the one ring kyle mastered without fighting or making construct would be an interesting perspective on it, and challenge his view on it, that yes atrocitus has been shown into great fits of rage but here he is, sitting on his altar as he explains his life and reasons for it all and asks him to lay down so he can do a ritual with him. calmy, because anger is not just destruction, anger builds as well. and it's also because i need to see kyle with his ribs split open and blood running down his body <3

the next steps would be atrocitus killing him, slipping the ring on his finger and letting him emerge as a feral being and plunging him in the lake of blood, having explained all he can to him he lets kyle fight his way out of the lake, understand his own anger and desires for justice separate from his duty as a hero. because that's another thing, it's vital that this arc is later in his career, in the beginning we see how he tries to uphold heroes' values (don't kill, save ppl, be impartial, etc) and later on embraces the green lantern corps and some of their views before evolving thru all he goes thru (ion, ion2, the fall of the corps, everything that happens when he's on earth, etc) that push him to reconsider his own ethics and moral stance. i dont think he could come to agree with personal vendetta and bloody vengeance before his mom was murdered

but mostly, it's about him being able to dredge up that anger without the memories, and being able to keep it steady enough to use it, forcing him to recon with the anger he has in himself and how he can call himself kyle and live his life on his love and duty to other while harboring depth of rage and fear beyond any other (if we follow the idea that ring bearer have the most of X emotions in their sector). i think it would be very satisfying to see kyle after so long trying his best to be a good person learn about this anger and embrace it, it would give him an edge and a sharper character that would be fascinating to dig into. the white lantern, the being supposed to look over the universe and keep it safe, being able to feel rage so terrible he spits up burning blood and still looks composed and in control the entire him. scary stuff <3

#asks #derelictship #this got long god. does it makes sense? hope u enjoy ive been thinking about this a lot it could be so cool to write it

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charcubed · 2 years

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A lot of people refer to Cas as "gay," which I think is awesome and everything. But I personally always considered him more as "queer" for a number of reasons, such as:

angel genders and vessels are very fluid. Would he still be considered "gay" if he were in a female vessel, and in love with Dean? Also, there are several times in the series where Cas appears to be attracted to women (some ppl don't consider these moments valid for Reasons™ which is fine. But I do.) He also seems, in my opinion, to only be romantically interested in Dean, and I think this would be true if Dean were female. So that would make Cas closer to demi.

Point is, I recently saw a post on sm that was like "reminder: Cas is GAY. He's not bi, pan, or unlabeled, he's gay and that's not negotiable."

I consider myself queer and a huge Cas fan, so it was weird to see my interpretation of a character I know really well and relate to just be invalidated like that.

And I just kind of wanted you opinion, cuz I know like in Dean's case, seeing him as anything other than bi is pretty clearly against canon.

But is the same true for Cas? Is it wrong to see him as an umbrella "queer?" I know Misha calls him gay, which I love and respect, but I don't really let my interpretations be dictated by actor opinions. I feel like canon supports a much more fluid interpretation of Cas, but I'm just wondering if I'm wrong for that, in terms of what canon supports.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. Thanks for your thoughts in this fandom I love them

Hi!! Thank you for the nice words and for wanting to know my thoughts on this. I appreciate you :)

Sorry it took me over a week to finish this. I kind of started it, realized it was probably gonna be longer than I’d expected, and then added to it in pieces when off work so as not to half-ass it.

Also, I want you to know that I think you absolutely rock for this message. The fact that you have a strong personal interpretation or strong feelings about what your view of Cas' sexuality means to you, while being open to hearing arguments for what canon supports, is exactly the kind of nuance too many people in fandom lack. Huge fuckin shout out to you, anon, because this takes both guts and brain cells!

I have two primary threads of thought I'm going to address here, as well as how they criss-cross:

I agree that Cas' canon sexuality is a slightly different topic than Dean's canon sexuality. Dean's bisexuality is not unclear/unambiguous, and there's no wiggle room there; he's frequently attracted to women, he's frequently attracted to men, there's bi lighting, it's all not rocket science. Cas is a bit more ~ambiguously queer~, so advocating for fandom maintaining a unanimous hard stance on his canon sexuality is... a little trickier. In that vein, the "reminder" post you mentioned seeing feels too intense in my opinion for the nature of this particular conversation/topic.

That being said: from an analytical standpoint, I do think the strongest argument to be made based on canon is that Cas is gay and demi.

Since you seem open to it and asked for my thoughts overall, I'm gonna break down point 2 before circling back to point 1. Quick reminder/disclaimer that I'm not trying to invalidate you or your personal connection to Cas with anything I'm about to say, so please keep that in mind <3

You mentioned how some people don't consider Cas' moments of being attracted to women as ~being valid~ and said you disagree. That's fair! At the same time... in a nuanced fashion, that's where I land on it. I also think the show took care to ultimately build to and portray a full picture with all of that factored in, and to talk about that I kinda gotta go into detail here, because it's one part of a bigger piece. I’m not trying to turn this into a comprehensive meta deep dive, so I’m going to talk about this in a sort of summarized way but not go too far into breaking down any one point or analyzing any one scene. Hope that’s cool.

Let’s look at Cas’ biggest “moments,” as it were, with women. Or the ones I would guess people intend to reference.

First up: there’s Meg. We’ve got the “pizza man" season 6 kiss, the season 7 arc of Meg watching over Cas during his mental break, and season 8 when Meg sacrifices herself.

The season 6 "pizza man" kiss, to me, really plays into the overall mood of Cas' curiosity as he explores and tries to understand human behavior. He watched porn and was intrigued/confused/aroused, Meg kissed him partially to get at his angel blade (not a euphemism lmao), and then his curiosity kicked in so he kissed her more thoroughly because the opportunity was there. Those scenes are all connected, and he doesn’t have much of a reaction after the kiss. Then, season 7 is a whole suitcase to unpack, but… the bottom line there is that Meg treated Cas with decency when he was vulnerable in every sense of the word. And then in season 8, Cas undeniably had a fondness for Meg by the end, and they were friends... but I don't read it as him having an attraction to her or romantic feelings for her. I do not mean this as shade or hate to anyone who ships them, but my reading on that dynamic overall is that I do think Meg felt something for Cas in terms of both attraction and feelings; and while that makes it all a bittersweet tragedy, it also doesn't mean things were reciprocally non-platonic. She was into him, but he seemingly wasn’t into her in the same way. After Meg’s death, Cas also never asks about her or mentions her or has any reaction at all to her being gone–something that would have been very easy for them to incorporate with even one mention if they'd wanted to or considered it foundational. (For example, mentions of Dean's relationship with Benny are recurring throughout the show, lending its non-platonic nature and its significance for establishing bi Dean even more weight.) Season 8 Megstiel content is also placed narratively right up against the Destiel content, and the contrast of that is–of course–pretty stark. That was likely deliberate. Cas’ feelings for Dean are unavoidably, unmistakably at the forefront.

Then you've got season 9. A newly human Cas–who was given the heteronormative suggestion by Metatron to "Find a wife. Make babies."–gets seduced then killed by April, all of which is traumatizing dubious consent galore. Then you’ve got Cas thinking he's being asked out on a date by a woman in 9x06 as he’s trying to figure out his life as a human. He even says this explicitly to Dean: “Going on dates… that's something humans do, right?” He is doing what he thinks he’s meant to be doing as a human, but is that action based in genuine desire? That line implies the answer being no. Contextually this is, of course, set against the jilted lover vibes he has with Dean in that episode. And then in the season at large, Cas becomes focused on his overall mission–a search for purpose, which (as Metatron helpfully points out later) becomes oriented around saving Dean.

Season 10 is up next. Hannah is very clearly interested in Cas, but Cas is a giant question mark in the face of all of her interest pretty consistently. In all honesty, the way Hannah comes onto Cas—the construction of the scenes—feels like it was intended to show that Cas isn’t interested in women. Half the time he doesn’t clock her vibes, and the other half the time he awkwardly avoids acknowledging it. This culminates in her standing in front of him naked in the clearest signal she can give… and as he says, he’s ~not bothered~ by it. He’s just... well, he's gay. Lmfao. And speaking of the naked Hannah scene in 10x07, something I personally find highly amusing is that that naked scene is immediately followed by Dean enthusiastically making out with a woman. It’s a smash cut with a very pointed contrast, in my opinion! I was very struck by it.

So that's my mini tour (with imperfect recall) of Cas' Moments With Women in the story and how I feel they're positioned.

And to touch upon the idea of contrast a bit further… With Dean, there are ample moments and instances where he canonically expresses (joyful or uncomplicated) sexual attraction to women, and/or romantic love for women throughout the show. This is why his canonical attraction to women should never be in question, as part of his bisexuality. But with Cas... I don’t personally feel we have a scene of his where we can unequivocally say the same. There are always story elements at play that indicate complex motivation, or when a woman (or woman-shaped being? lol) may be interested in him there doesn’t seem to be genuine reciprocal interest on his part. The absence of a clear scene establishing he’s unequivocally attracted to women doesn’t mean he couldn’t hypothetically be… but there are no significant moments that convince me that that’s the case in canon. Instead, I think the picture these layered moments paint of Cas and his sexuality is solidified as the story progress–as part of how his sense of self solidifies and emerges story-wide in kind. By that I mean: the shades of how he reacts to Hannah are there in his reactions to Meg’s interest years prior, but in season 10 they feel more clear because by that point he understands himself better (especially after his time as a human) and has formulated his identity as a person more than he had, for example, in season 6.

The secondary part of this though is the queercoding attached to Cas–which is, by and large, gay coding. (There is also more contrast here in comparison to Dean's bi coding in that regard.) By “gay” coding, I mean… Dean describes Cas as having "sensible shoes,” which is gay slang/code, though more commonly used in reference to lesbians. Cas uses female pop artists for his aliases, which is a wink/nod to stereotypes of gay men—a pattern that’s established in later seasons concurrently to the Destiel narrative taking even deeper root. The specific micro-agressions (and outright aggressions) Cas is subjected to by others—as he's clocked as being an outsider who doesn't fit and for being in love with Dean, in ways that are often tangled together—are traditionally gay story devices at play. And I'm also fond of the seeming significance of Cas' conversation with Pastor Joe in 15x15. Cas asks the Pastor what he means by people of "all backgrounds," being welcomed, and the Pastor says, "Connor didn't have to live in fear of who he was. A gay man who believed in a tolerant God." And Cas says, "Well, I imagine not everyone was happy with the change."

In terms of why I say he’s also demi… Cas is seemingly never ~interested~ in anyone but Dean. Now, part of that is of course a byproduct of the storytelling structures he's given. But nonetheless, his singleminded focus on / interest in / devotion to Dean feels unwavering in its totality. Even as Dean stops looking to date other people in later seasons because he knows he’s fallen in love with Cas, there’s still references to or nods to his attraction to men and women as a significant part of who he is. But unless I’m forgetting things, Cas just… doesn’t really seem to have that embedded into his character. He's got an emotional attachment to (and "profound bond" with) Dean, and his attraction to and love for Dean is part of its natural extension. That’s where the demi reading comes in for me, but it’s certainly a side note / asterisk to him being gay, which I think is the prime part of his identity the text deliberately points towards overall.

Regarding Cas' gender and how that may affect any part of this discussion... Is Cas non-binary? Well, in the show overall, angels are obviously considered ~celestial wavelengths of intent~. We see the fluidity of angels in different gendered vessels, and one could say the angels' primary gender is sort of "genderless" as default. Sure. But... at minimum, I feel it's implied that Cas comes to feel at home in a male vessel's body, and in what has legitimately become his body. As Dean says, "It's not an 'it,' Sam. It's Cas." And ultimately, I feel the gender question is not really a huge part of the point in regards to how canon presents this queer story to us.

To the question of if Cas would still be "gay" if he was in a female vessel and fell in love with Dean–or even to a question of "what if Dean was a woman" I've seen plenty of other people pose in various contexts–I think it's almost like... a moot point. The homoeroticism of Dean and Cas' dynamic is significant in a multilayered way, and that was true from day one. Their dynamic is very much affected by and built on them being 2 masculine men (or Cas being perceived as a "man" if you want to go that route), both in story and out of it, particularly in Dean's reactions to Cas. And the romance, tension, push-and-pull, miscommunication, coding, and censorship–the latter being a thing that shaped story choices over the years–all exist in a specific way because their relationship is undeniably, visibly queer. Destiel as we know it could not and would not be the same if one of them was in a perceived woman's body. Their interactions would have been vastly different, and thus in my head it's impossible to conceptualize.

Supernatural is also very much a story about the deconstruction of toxic masculinity while maintaining masculinity through a queer lens. This is its own separate topic that I actually have been wanting to make a post about for awhile now (in part because over-feminization of their characters in fandom, especially in ways that lead to apply ill-fitting repression narratives to Dean's canon, can miss several points about this). Those masculinity themes are so centralized because of Dean and Cas' romance and the fact that they are two men. There is significance there, both historically and culturally.

So while maybe Cas would or could identify as non-binary... It doesn't seem like a viewpoint he is particularly aligned with, and it also doesn't feel like a significant element at play in this queer love story. That makes me tip towards saying it's not a huge factor in discussions of exact readings or terminology for Cas' canonical sexuality/identity.

As a side note: to a certain extent, I also find it interesting to contemplate how some of their miscommunication in-narrative maybe extends into the idea that Dean is attracted to women and Cas seems not to be. More than once, Dean tries to bond with Cas through ~typical male~ interests, such as when he takes him to a strip club. Dean being bi doesn't mean he avoids having heteronormativity on the brain lol, and that sort of thing in his experience is usually quick-and-easy guy bonding time, especially in hunting culture. But while Cas learns how to be human in a metaphorical sense from the Winchesters' examples in several ways (both the good and the bad habits/lessons), something he can't/doesn't pick up is attraction to women or how to act on or express that sort of attraction, because it just doesn't seem innate to him. So while Dean and Cas are certainly both queer, to me they exhibit different forms of queer experiences (bi and gay) in characteristics and in story and in coding that add a layer to their dynamic. It's a little bit of a difference between them that they maybe don't know how to awkwardly address with each other, because they often don't fucking communicate, and I can see it contributing to Dean wondering if / how much Cas has capacity to "feel that way"... making him think Cas maybe doesn't reciprocate his desire. Because they're both stupid.

Anyway! Anyway.

Back to the main points:

Let me summarize.

I personally don't think Cas is attracted to women, and that the story points to him going through a journey of learning that about himself as he grows into himself over time. The queercoding in connection to him, such as it is, also rings of being gay coding. Considering we see him primarily or solely so strongly interested in Dean, an argument/hypothesis for him being demi doesn't feel off the mark. And I don't think the question of angelic gender is super relevant to what canon points to in this discussion for Cas specifically, because I do think the m/m nature of Destiel is relevant to their story and dynamic with each other, and by later seasons at minimum Cas is seemingly comfortably "a man" (perhaps even more so than an ambiguously gendered Being).

Is there a stronger or more persuasive argument to be made about the specifics of Cas' sexuality in canon? I'd be open to hearing it, of course, but I just kind of doubt any other argument would be convincing enough to change my mind when factoring in all of the story elements at play.

However. All of this being said:

I would certainly not call an umbrella use of the word "queer" wrong for Cas. I think it is, in fact, very applicable! For one thing, the word "queer" in this instance effectively encompasses a combined gay and demi reading, as an example. For another thing, it's an understandable hat tip that simplifies his various complexities as an angel. It works.

I'm also not die-on-this-hill militant about the use of the word "gay" for Cas because I'm cognizant of how things are not 100% clearcut with him. I do not say this to negate my own analysis, but rather because I can acknowledge the truth of this particular situation. While I do think the above full picture kind of adds up to him being specifically gay, this is an instance where there is room for nuance within it and giving grace to–dare I say it–"interpretations." I personally don't really agree with or particularly feel comfortable considering him bi or pan specifically, given all the factors at play; but it doesn't overtly upset me that others do. For example, he did indeed have sex with April as a human, and I find I can't get mad at people who choose to take his interest in that moment 100% at face value, especially considering the fact that what I view to be his overall "gay arc" certainly has subtlety and room for subjectivity in it.

In conclusion,

I don't know if this post answers all your questions, anon. I don't know if it will help you or make you feel bad for some reason, though I certainly hope it's the former rather than the later! And I apologize for the length, but you touched on a lot of different branches in your message, and I'm nothing if not someone who maps out a whole fucking tree when asked to lmfaaaoooo.

Thank you for your patience as this post took me WAY too long to complete smh. Like what the hell, truly. You're a star, I love ya, and for what little it's worth I do infer that lots of people in fandom (perhaps even Misha) use "gay" as an umbrella word in reference to Cas. (I am sympathetic to your plight if that makes you feel weird though; it's not the same situation by any means, but I will share that I'm suspicious of people who call Dean "gay" even flippantly at this point, because nowadays I don't trust that shit lmao)

Send me thoughts and prayers because the "e" key on my laptop's keyboard has started periodically sticking and it's been driving me insane while working on writing this.

#castiel #supernatural #castiel meta #gay cas #?¿?#this is long enough it warrants tags. fuck it #anonymous #asks #char writes things #spn meta #destiel

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golbrocklovely · 2 years

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Wait a minute when did you see his vacation post because when i read it he had about 5 or 6 comments disagreeing with him, not full on hating on him simply telling him his thought process did not apply to the general public. If you saw NONE then there is further proof he deleted them which is not cool. If you are not able to start a conversation and have people add their own experiences because you see it as a personal attack towards you, then why start the conversation to begin with. Just deactivate the comments if all you’re interested in is people blindly agreeing and praising something that does not apply to them. I was all for him starting a book club, that was his original idea for dumb & wise, but what fun is it if all he reads is self help books that apply to only him and how to get rich quick??

He looks up to Bezos, Musk, the Paul Brothers, Jeffree Starr and all because they’re extremely wealthy. And while it’s great to challenge yourself to see how far you can go, dont start preaching to regular people about how they need to have the same mindset as these toxic men who value always working and not having any time off ever and scam their workers when they all have the ability to travel anywhere, purchase anything, and do so without giving back to those who got them there. Musk literally said hes never had a day off and sleeps on friends sofas. Bezos the riches man refuses to pay workers past minimum wage, and rented out a ride in a amusement park all to himself and had no one with him nor let anyone else ride it, The Paul brothers moved to Puerto Rico to get a tax cut when hundreds of people on the island are loosing their homes and suffering, and thought they could break every rule and kill their sea turtles, and Jeffree Starr moved to the middle of nowhere Wyoming because no one in La could stand him. Thats who he wants to mirror his mindset and business approach after😕.

i haven't checked on the post since he made it. i was more commenting on when he first posted it, i didn't see anyone outright disagreeing with him until i got on here. but that doesn't mean there weren't comments disagreeing, i just didn't see them originally.

and like i just said in the previous ask, i do think to some degree he doesn't really want to hear ppl's opinions. he'd rather live in a bit of an echo-chamber. maybe i'm wrong, so don't take my word for it. that's just how it feels sometimes. bc it's not like he replies to ppl who disagree or tries to keep the conversation going. he just posts and moves on lol

he looks up to ppl who've made a shit-ton of money, and while i get that from a business stand point….. find better ppl. there are probably plenty of rich ppl who didn't abuse a fuck ton of ppl on their way to the top. granted if you're trying to look up to billionaires you aren't gonna find any good ones. that's just my personal opinion.

i think his issue is that he believes the one main way to be successful is thru wealth and business. and while that is definitely one way, it's not the only way. there are plenty of ways to be successful. but i think he hyperfocuses on business and working bc it's the one thing he can control. his emotions? absolutely not. but he can control how much effort or time he puts into something.

i've never really mentioned this before, but sometimes there is an intensity with him that concerns me a bit. especially when it comes to him talking about working or editing. he just seems… like he's ready to burst at any minute.

i truly hope that both him and colby can take a much needed time off when hell week is over.

#ask #personal

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kalosstarters · 2 years

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Okay, I saw the new episode and here’s some negative nebbying (with a bit of positivity in between):

First of all, I didn’t super love the battle. Yeah, I’m not all too surprised that Cynthia ended up winning (the fandom would have rioted if she hadn’t) but the only match up that actually felt like something (to me! If you liked the other ones, good for you!) was Haxorus vs Garchomp. I was happy that our little Axew has developed so much that he is now a genuine threat to the /Evil Shark/ itself. It ended up being a close call even despite Garchomp mega evolving so that speaks volumes about Iris’ development - and I’m proud of her! I’m also happy that Excadrill got a win. But, now we get to the but part. Tomioka continues with a very similar battle writing style as in the previous battles, with the four first mons getting knocked out so fast. I get that there are only so many minutes in one episode but comparing this to the Alola league, I would say that Alola benefited from /not/ having 3 on 3 battles until Ash vs Gladion. That way each match up got the screen time they deserved. Of course people can disagree with me on this but I personally would rather take quality over quantity, meaning I consider a well made 1-on-1 (or 2-on-2) better than a rushed 3 on 3.

Then to the non battle stuff: the cameos were cool again (was especially happy to see the BW rivals because I actually really like that squad. Minus Cameron. We don’t talk about him). But. WHERE. WAS. CILAN??? YOU CAN NOT TELL ME THAT HE WAS NOT WATCHING BECAUSE HE MOST DEFINITELY WOULD. It wouldn’t have been so hard to add a similar still pic of him as they did with the other characters. Okay, there’s a chance that they WILL show Ash’s friends, Cilan included, during his battles, but I still feel that Cilan belonged here too.

I... also am not sure how I felt about that scene with Iris and Ash. Okay, I guess it was in character on Iris’ part, she cried and then was able to smile again but... I don’t know, I wish Ash as her friend would have done a little more to comfort her? But well, maybe that’s just me. We know poke/ani isn’t often too big on that kind of stuff, we rarely see hugs etc.

Then to plus sides: I’m always happy to see Alain no matter how small his role is! This time I was particularly amused by how he was standing behind the others in the champion room like ‘idk how to interact with ppl so gotta keep my distance’. Very relatable.

Hop being so shocked about hearing that ASH KNOWS IRIS TOO. Like, I’m so sorry to break this to you, boy, but he knows EVERYONE :’D And has seen p much every single mon out there.

TR continues shining in this tournament that otherwise feels a bit lackluster to me. Loved how they recognized the ‘Isshu twerpette’ and were rooting for her. And in the preview they called Ash ‘the Alola champion, competitor brat boy’ which honestly might be one of my fav things I’ve ever seen Ash being called :’D I’m so happy they’re here.

Okay, time to wrap this overly long post up: I dunno, I may also have been in a bit of a wrong mindset when starting to watch this battle so yeah, I might have been more critical than maybe in some other situation but... maybe I’ll enjoy this episode more in another watch? I hope so. But as this post proved, it did have some good parts too. Well, either way, I hope the Ash vs Steven will be a good one!

#tia speaks #pokeani spoilers #tia watches pokemon jn #episode commentary

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orenjibot · 2 months

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Rly frustrated af at shit so. I deactivated all my twit in the meantime. I simply do not exist.

I’ll reactivate them some time. I’ll likely keep off discord for a lil bit too.

I’m just so… upset at everything…

(rant under a read more)

Bro i keep feeling like cause i just complain so much that no one likes to hear me complain???? Like imagine having ppl not respond to u with smth like “damn that sucks” or etc.

Like ofc i dont get like this all the time cause i know sometimes i need to write my thoughts out somewhere, but it do feel like smth when a few doesn’t rly respond to my rants or some shit but will respond to other ppl. And i just…. Am i rly that bad…???

I kinda wish ppl will tell me that if i am BUT then again, it’s just putting pressure on ppl for telling me what’s right and what’s wrong which is mean and cruel of me. Despite the fact that, I’m not rly forcing them to tell me but more like “please don’t hold ur words back and rly let me have it” if like ya know? They WANT to say something but is afraid to.

But then again, i had this issue with my old friend group of irls many years ago so honestly? I should expect not to get a response or smth. Like i expect a response but i guess i just… dunno what kinda response i want? Like do i want ppl to let me know they read it? Do i want an opinion or advice on it? Or do i want them to like coddle me for a bit and let me know they care? Do i want them to agree with me?? Like i just dunno. I respond to ppl when they vent all the time because i feel like i should say smth since lol i get ignored a lot.

Literally no one want to listen to me talk irl when i get like this??? My whole family is kind of dismissive towards me about it. Like damn sorry for complaining so much i guess?? I totally get it if ppl just can’t rly help me and they know it, but sometimes the way ppl respond by saying nothing or responding curtly/abruptly, i just feel like u don’t want to listen to me and want me to shut up. Like man i’m not going to MAKE y’all participate in actively shittalking ppl with me cause i GET IT, but sometimes the way ppl respond rly feels like “i disagree with u and want to say u’re wrong but out of politeness and the facts laid out before me, i can’t say that.” Like… you can just say u dont like me and wanna take someone else’s side???

Like idk maybe i’m just reading too much into it cause it causes my rad to flare up really bad. I dont wanna force ppl TO listen to me when they can’t or don’t want to?? Like i’m not that rude but the way ppl sorta just get distracted irl makes me rly like upset cause bro… i asked if i can talk to u and THIS is the response and attention u’re giving me? Bruh just say u dont like listening to me. I have to out all my shit down if i’m listening to you, i demand the same respect back. I dont grill ppl that much on it if it’s online tho.

Like ya kno? It’s online u got ur own life and shit like that. So i get that much. It’ll sting but not that much.

I keep thinking that maybe its just the hole left in me cause my exfriend was shit but at this point… i guess i just. Can’t find anyone who rly did fill the role my exfriend left behind. I do commend him for being able to work with me to get along with me, despite how he eventually threw me aside after a while.

Either i expect everyone to treat me like how i treat them, very literally, or maybe i just have some things that i can’t really overlook when it comes to how i want people treat me. Like i dont think my requirements are ungodly high, but i guess it’s the little things that set me off.

Oh well. I feel like i’m being a nuisance anyways so i’m just going to not talk and actively participate in social media for a bit. Like i’m around alright cause ppl need to be able to reach me for anything, but. Yeah.

I dont want to think of myself as someone who just complains a lot cause i dont but i do complain about things when it overwhelms me emotionally. Like i dont gripe about my pet peeves that often but i WILL complain about stuff i think is like emotionally overwhelming to me like if i get hurt or treated unfairly. And those are things i vent about a lot in retrospect.

It’s all temporary but i think it’s harder for me to pet go of something i don’t rly understand and hurt me deeply as a result. Like it just takes longer which sucks.

Maybe i’m just burnt out from trying to be okay lately. I’ve been depressed after all. Maybe i’m just. Tired or smth. Idk. I just dunno what i should be doing.

Just feeling like a blob of hurt… Like i know that just leaving won’t get ppl to dm me or anything and ask if i’m doing alright. Even irl, i dont think ppl really realize if i’m doing alright cause i don’t rly show it and i don’t rly like to say i’m not doing okay.

It’s… tough.

#teru’s complaining again #vent #just ya boi doing the daily vents

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thequackcity · 3 years

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Quackity and Schlatt’s Relationship - More Complicated Then You Think

(this is all /rp and about the characters from the dream smp! pls assume i have the dignity not to write analysis of youtubers)

recently there was a bit of discourse surrounding the relationship between Quackity and Schlatt floating around on tumblr. tho i never saw the original post that sparked the conversation, i did see a few posts that were inspired by it mentioning how they disliked that the original post implied that Quackity and Schlatt were mutually abusive and/or equally bad for each other

since i never saw the original post, i can't be sure if that's what the op meant to imply. it's not really my place to speak about a post that i never got the chance to read. BUT the conversation that was caused by the post in question did get me thinking about how this fandom treats the relationship between Quackity and Schlatt and how little nuance there is in discussions about it

now before i say anything else, i want to make a few things clear:

i don't think Quackity and Schlatt’s relationship is mutually abusive. no need to worry about hearing that from this post

i don't look down on ppl who have different interpretations of their relationship

there will be potentially triggering content in this analysis. i will place a quick warning whenever i think one is needed!

their relationship is romantic in canon and therefore i’ll be treating it as romantic

alright now that we’ve gotten all of that out of the way, we can finally get on with the analysis! i apologize for how long this is gonna be

part 1: let's talk relationship!

i think we can all agree that Quackity and Schlatt’s relationship was not exactly a healthy one. tho it didn't start out that way, it certainly turned into what could be read as abusive or toxic (i personally read their relationship as being abusive in its later half due to evidence provided by the text, but i understand if others prefer to view it as just toxic instead)

but what happened that led to their partnership ending so badly? what caused all of this mess?

well, it was a lot of things. but we will get to that later. let's talk relationship first!

from the very beginning, Quackity and Schlatt’s relationship was pretty one-sided. tho they both clearly liked each other as friends/partners in crime both before and after the election (yes they did interact before the election!) Quackity was also interested in Schlatt romantically- something that Schlatt wasn't fully committed to

as we all know from the infamous date stream and from a few other moments, Quackity and Schlatt enjoyed playfully flirting with each other- tho it was pretty obvious that Quackity was more serious about it then Schlatt was even tho Schlatt considered Quackity to be very attractive

in my opinion, Quackity is someone who wants a long term relationship, while Schlatt is more interested in flings. this can be seen in Schlatt refusing to marry Quackity and rejecting most of his advances while Quackity tried his best to convince him to feel otherwise. Tommy put it best: Quackity is just one of Schlatt’s many bitches U_U

to Quackity, the romantic aspect of their relationship was very important. because Schlatt never actually shot him down or told him that he didn't feel the same way, Quackity took that to mean that they were truly in love. Schlatt on the other hand wasn't very invested in the romantic side of things but clearly valued Quackity’s looks and his support as an ally against Pogtopia so he never fully rejected Quackity’s advances

this might not seem like too big of a deal considering the other things that happened between them, but i think it shows part of the nature of their relationship. there is a lot of miscommunication and, on Schlatt’s end, manipulation of emotions. love is a strong motivator for loyalty and Schlatt is a smart guy who would know how to use that to his advantage

but that isn't to say that Schlatt didn't ever care about Quackity!

Schlatt is a complicated guy and figuring out when he's actually being genuine can be pretty difficult. but i think there are some moments that point to Schlatt genuinely caring about Quackity

when he was alive, Schlatt was pretty paranoid. not as paranoid as Wilbur, but certainly up there. but there were never any times where he truly questioned Quackity’s loyalties after his first day as president. Schlatt also seemed truly upset that Quackity betrayed him, bringing up their status as partners in crime while ranting about how much it hurt him and singling Quackity out while talking about how he had been abandoned during his time of need

Schlatt also spent a lot of time sulking after Quackity betrayed him and whining to Ponk about needing a new bitch. this is in contrast to how angry he was after Tubbo betrayed him- both during and after the execution

there is also the situation with the Big Man Gym

after being dead for a while, Schlatt contacted Quackity despite them leaving off on bad terms and asked for him to visit him in his cave gym. when Quackity showed up, Schlatt talked about how he valued their relationship and the good times they had together. tho this can easily be seen as emotional manipulation, Schlatt’s a lot smarter than he seems and- if he doesnt have memory issues due to being a ghost- would know that Quackity’s opinion of him was in the dump at the time of his death and most likely wouldn't have improved since then. Fundy has a higher opinion of Schlatt than Quackity does and is someone who obviously craves validation. but Schlatt went to Quackity first anyway and trusted him to help revive him

i think that this is all good evidence that points towards Schlatt truly caring about Quackity as much as someone like Schlatt can care about anyone- or at least valuing him as a companion

i also think that it is pretty common knowledge that Quackity cared about Schlatt- and possibly still does- but i will go over a bit of evidence that i haven’t already mentioned before we move on to the next part

Quackity tried multiple times to impress Schlatt (like when he lied about knowing how to play chess), would attempt to help Schlatt when he was drowning in water, sadly said that they could have had something together while Schlatt was dying in the caravan, and implied that he wouldn’t have left if Schlatt hadn’t taken down the white house. Quackity also willingly went to the Big Man Gym after being summoned there by Schlatt and wanted to revive him long before the revive book became part of the story

part 2: what made it fall apart?

everything i've said so far has been pretty interesting (hopefully) but it doesn't really answer the original question: what went wrong to turn Schlatt and Quackity’s mainly positive partnership sour?

well it comes down to two things in my opinion: their incompatible desires for political power and Schlatt’s deteriorating mental state

Quackity wanted political power from the beginning and wasn't afraid to be open about his desires. he pooled his votes with Schlatt because Schlatt offered him the position of vice president, something Wilbur and Tommy weren’t willing to give to him. tho Quackity obviously cared about L’Manburg and wanted to see good things for it, he also desired power and was willing to team up with someone he didn't fully agree with to get said power

at 32:40 in this video, Quackity talks about how in politics everyone uses everyone so it's alright if Schlatt is using him. he then talks about how he doesn't want to be a man with no power and how he understands that Schlatt’s main goal is also gaining/keeping power. Quackity also shows a bit of his naughty evil side by saying if he overthrows Schlatt then the fun ends too early!

(side note: these two are pretty evenly matched in intelligence and manipulativeness, i love it!)

it's a bit of a fandom misconception that Quackity was a love sick yes man during the Manburg era. tho Quackity did want to please Schlatt and was in love with him, he didn't shy away from standing up to or disagreeing with Schlatt when he believed it was needed

at around 26:12 of this video, Quackity and Schlatt meet together in private and Quackity tells Schlatt off for playing down his role in the power structure of Manburg. since this was very early in Schlatt’s reign, Quackity shows no fear towards him and confidently tells him not to treat him like that

Quackity also broke Niki out of jail after regretting letting her be put there in the first place, tried to convince Schlatt to not execute Tubbo, jumped in front of Fundy when Schlatt tried to attack him, tried to stop Schlatt from tearing down buildings, and attempted to protect the white house he built from being destroyed by Schlatt. these are not behaviors of a pure yes man but of someone who, despite fear, has the confidence to speak up for himself even when disrespected by someone in authority

Quackity has always been someone who wanted power and someone who was never a yes man to authority. this contradicts with how Schlatt believed Quackity should act as vice president. in Schlatt’s opinion, Quackity’s one job is to sit around looking pretty while Schlatt does all of the important things and holds all of the power. Schlatt was a big fan of promoting people to worthless positions of authority and its pretty obvious that he considered vice president to be similar to the fake positions he gave Fundy and Tubbo

in the end, this was a big part of what destroyed their relationship. like it or not, Quackity’s a power hungry guy and always has been. he didn't like that Schlatt constantly shoved him aside and refused to listen to him

now onto the nasty bit...Schlatt’s mental state

cw for mentions of alcoholism, mental deterioration, and abusive behavior

before i say anything more, i just want to say that i don't think having issues with alcoholism makes someone a bad person. i personally have some issues with such things so it would be pretty stupid of me to say being an alcoholic makes you a bad person. alcoholism does negatively affect your cognitive functions tho and, combined with other health issues, can cause some of the very serious mental problems that Schlatt clearly struggles with

throughout the Manburg era, Schlatt’s mental state rapidly deteriorated. he went from a pretty normal- if eccentric- guy who had a drinking problem, to someone who was delirious most of the time. it's a sharp and noticeable decline that caused a lot of pain for Quackity due to Schlatt often taking his excess aggression out on him by yelling at him and/or belittling him. tho Schlatt often belittled Quackity before he went fully off of the deep end, it was never as aggressive as it was when he was in this delirious state of mind

it was during one of Schlatt’s most aggressive and delirious moments that he tore down the white house despite Quackity’s protests. as we all know, this caused Quackity to snap and kill Schlatt (it's more complicated than that but we will get back to that). as mentioned previously, Quackity implied that he would have stayed with Schlatt if the white house hadn’t been destroyed

in my opinion, these two things combined are the biggest reasons why Quackity and Schlatt’s relationship fell apart. their differing desires for power were not compatible and Schlatt’s awful behavior while his mental state declined caused a rift between them that couldn't be fixed

part 3: how toxic was it really?

cw for emotional and physical abuse

as i said all the way back in part one, Quackity and Schlatt’s relationship was not healthy. i have provided many examples in the other two parts that shine a light onto why it wasn't healthy, but i didn't show the entire picture

there are many moments that show exactly how Schlatt treated Quackity when he was acting at his worst and none of them are pretty. tho Schlatt was never truly aggressive with his insults until he started to go off of the deep end, that doesn't mean that what he said wasn't negatively affecting Quackity

Schlatt would belittle, insult, and mock Quackity for his appearance not being up to his standards, for his opinions, and for being emotional in ways that Schlatt disapproved of like crying. tho Schlatt would often brush off Quackity’s reactions towards this cruel behavior, it's very clear that Schlatt’s treatment of him has stuck with Quackity in many ways

Quackity is very sensitive about his appearance and it seems to be because of how badly Schlatt hurt his self esteem during their time together. Schlatt tied Quackity’s worth to his appearance and then would claim he wasn't meeting his standards of attractiveness. we can tell that this has stuck with Quackity because of his sensitivity towards people bringing up the scar on his face (something that greatly alters his physical appearance) and he still reacts very badly when Schlatt calls him the mocking nickname flatty patty

speaking of flatty patty- that stupid insult shockingly has a lot of weight in Quackity’s relationship with Schlatt. tho its something the audience is meant to laugh at, the nickname also shows just how little Schlatt respects Quackity because he's constantly throwing it around just to make Quackity upset. Schlatt’s last words are flatty patty all because he wanted to get in one last dig at his ex and ruin Quackity’s day even further

Schlatt tends to do a lot of things that are intended to make Quackity upset. tearing down the room Quackity made for him in the white house is the biggest example of this- especially since Schlatt mentions how it will upset Quackity while he does it. you can see this moment at around 19:10 of this video

and now let's get into the elephant in the room when it comes to these two: Quackity was scared of Schlatt. tho we never really see Schlatt hit or attack Quackity physically outside of their confrontation at the white house or their confrontation in the caravan, these clips imply that Quackity was at the very least scared of Schlatt physically harming him in some way

as for actually physically harming him, Schlatt hits Quackity multiple times with a pickaxe and with his fists during their white house fight. Quackity hits Schlatt a couple times too, tho these are all primarily defensive blows since he is trying to protect himself and his property. he also chases after Quackity with a bow after Quackity’s plan to trick him into signing Manburg over to the Pogtopians fails and hits him multiple times during the caravan confrontation

all of this evidence shows that Schlatt was an abusive (or at least toxic) partner towards Quackity and someone who greatly affected him in many ways

tho Quackity did a few questionable things throughout his relationship with Schlatt (such as trying to get Schlatt to have sex with him despite Schlatt not being interested as shown in the later half of this video) and did some downright morally wrong things during his time as vice president of Manburg, no one deserves the pain of an abusive relationship- even a person who has done bad things

as a brief side note before we move on because i know people will bring it up if i skip over it, Quackity did- and most likely still does- want to literally possess Glatt. he brought up reviving Schlatt and using him as a political pawn after Schlatt’s funeral and during their conversation at the Big Man Gym Quackity talked about owning Glatt and having him work at Las Nevadas with no pay

this is unsettling behavior to say the least but this essay isnt about the aftermath of their relationship so much as it is about their relationship when it was actually happening. maybe i will make another post talking more about how Quackity’s relationship with Schlatt affected him even after Schlatt’s death and/or about Quackity’s relationship with Glatt

part 4: final thoughts

i’m not exactly sure why the nuances in Schlatt and Quackity’s relationship get lost when it comes to the fandom, but it’s pretty disappointing to see. hopefully this essay can help people take a closer look at canon and maybe even help them find something interesting that they’d want to explore!

tho the point of this essay is to clear up any misconceptions and hopefully add some nuance to the conversations surrounding Schlatt and Quackity’s relationship, i also wrote it in hopes of showing people how fascinating these two partners in crime were back in the Manburg days. i didn’t cover everything but i think i did a pretty good job for my first analysis post in the dsmp fandom

also since you read to the end, i must say thank you! it really does means a lot to me that you did. i hope you enjoyed and maybe even learned something. this post can be used as a resource if anyone wants to use it as such

here’s a tiny devil Quackity for your troubles <3

#quackity #jschlatt #manburg #dream smp analysis #dsmp analysis #posts by me #this was really fun to make!! i worry it wont show up in tags tho bc of how many links there are in it #so pls reblog!! if you read it and liked it that is haha #meta by me

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rainbowsky · 3 years

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More on the Fan Fic issue

I have a few more asks about the issue raised the other day, some of which are long and go into detail on the 'wars' that have been happening on Twitter and AO3.

Sorry for grouping these but I wanted to put it all under a cut because these are long, and also in case people don't want to dig into these issues (which would be understandable).

Anonymous 1 asked:

"I am very strongly of the opinion that the BJYX term is still a fandom umbrella term" I agree. Mainly because Bjyx is the most popular. Many antis always say bjyx, and have no idea the others. So sometimes it's easier just to say bjyx instead of explaining all three. I myself more like "who cares as long as they happy." So I enjoy Yizhan in all contexts. Many bxgs I know also like that, mostly ibxgs. I think deep down all bxgs (no matter which position they prefer) just want Yizhan to be happy

Not sure we can be so certain about that last part, Anon (I think for a lot of people GG and DD are just characters in a smutty story they have in their heads), but I agree about the term being popular regardless of the type of fans people are.

From what I can see the BJYX term seems to be used 80-90% umbrella, 10-20% dynamic in both international and c-social media (for every 10 times you see the term used, only one or two of those usages - probably less - are referring to a dynamic). This is my totally unscientific estimation, but I think even 10-20% dynamic is being generous. The number of people who are fixated on a sexual dynamic aren't nearly as large as they'd like to believe.

Anonymous 2 asked:

about the promptfests - i’ve been on twitter since early 2020 and what i’ve noticed is that this influx bjyx-only promptfests started gaining speed once lots of rational voices started leaving the fandom recently either because a) new interests have caught their attention or b) the toxicity of the popular bxg circles on twitter have become too much to handle.

gdgdbaby was usually the organizer of dynamic-inclusive events, and she’s received lots, and lots, and lots of backlash by bxg, sometimes even by accounts with thousands followers, for using bjyx as a catch-all term. and as her interest in yizhan has since waned—hopefully for reasons unrelated to fandom toxicity—many of the people who were attracted to the welcoming environment she created distanced themselves as well.

zsww/lsfy fans have become an outnumbered circle who try their best to create exclusive events to avoid the “is bjyx a catch-all term” discourse, but never seem to gain as much traction as gdgdbaby (who has a sizeable following) or those who host bjyx-only events (who also have sizeable followings).

meanwhile the dynamic war has only become more and more hostile and bjyx is clearly the more populated group… ao3 is simply a battlegrounds, if i may dramatize the situation a little for the sake of humor, and the promptfests are a reaction to this irritating t/b discourse that has made bxg twitter completely inhospitable for me…and lots of other fans too.

(i’ve also noticed a huge reinforcement as of recently where ppl will call gg laopo, a milf, an omega, etc even outside of rpf (i.e. posting pictures of him at events and saying he looks pregnant or he’s going into heat) and it’s just… uncomfortable.)

(also please note i have a biased account of all of this drama bc many of my friends were harassed over it, and anyone who disagrees with my take may feel free to interject.)

I took the liberty of adding paragraph breaks because they are pretty important for some readers, particularly ND readers like me.

It's sad to hear how fucked up everything has become, but I'm not even remotely surprised. Toxicity leads to toxicity, and the whole idea of dividing up a RP fandom by sex position was misguided from the outset - no matter why it was done or how good the intentions might have been.

And yes, like I said, these people aren't just framing things this way for fan fic. This is how they talk about IRL GGDD.

I had written a lengthy essay here about homophobia in the fandom but deleted it all. Perhaps I'll post it separately at some later point. Suffice it to say that this stuff creates a climate that's often hostile for queer people. So much of it is deeply homophobic, whether people are aware of it or not.

It's really sad to hear about gdgdbaby being mistreated in any way. Anyone who steps up and sticks their neck out to help organize and coordinate activities that benefit a broader group of people should be celebrated and supported, not run out of town by an angry mob.

I've read some of her stories and even have one or two on my rec list. And here's someone who is not only writing good works, but also supporting others to write more good works. Such a shame.

Anonymous 3 asked:

Hello Mr. RBS! I think I can chime in a bit about the fanfic topic as I’ve watched this all unravel on twitter (where a majority of authors/readers are). I apologize if this gets long but it’s been something that’s also been on my mind.

I want to preface this by saying that I’m not a fan of the distinctions of dynamics as, like you said, the supposed line between real life and fanfic is long gone, so I’m not trying to be biased against one group over another.

Short answer to the question of, “is this retaliation?” : I do believe it is. (From here onwards I’ll be using bjyx as the dynamic term just for the ease of simplicity.) To understand why, I’ll have to explain with a bit of background info. On twitter, I’d say that there’s a quite large divide between bjyx and zsww/lsfy. That itself isn’t really a problem because people are free to like what they like and associate with whoever.

However there is a big problem where bjyx people are not just bjyx but also anti-zsww/lsfy. To the point where I’ve seen people say that they feel physically ill when they accidentally read zsww. I don’t think this type of behavior should exist in any dynamic bc in the end GGDD are real people with a real relationship behind this content and it’s just a gross fetishization at that point.

With all this happening, zsww/lsfy people have gotten more outspoken on how GG is often portrayed in those types of scenarios, mainly the over-feminization of him, bc it’s not just done in the context of fanfic but regular discussion of GGDD at this point. This tension between the dynamics kind of boiled over when the pregnant xz fest was announced, as you can take a guess at how that went over with zsww/lsfy people. lol.

But around that same time, another zsww/lsfy event was announced (I’m not sure if it’s the one anon was talking about) but the creator of the event suddenly got a ton of backlash for excluding bjyx, with the reasoning that bjyx is technically a part of lsfy. But the event was done to highlight zsww/lsfy (as all specific events are) bc the community and content for these dynamics are much less than bjyx.

Which is how we come back to the starting point of, is all this recent bjyx stuff retaliatory. I believe so bc the events (preg fest, dark event) are very specific prompts that target exactly what zsww/lsfy people have been outspoken against.

As to the point anon made about trying to drown out the tags, keep in mind that zsww/lsfy content is very minimal compared to bjyx and has only just recently started to gain more traction. I think most people would love to just peacefully exist in their own circles but I don’t see this problem between dynamics disappearing anytime soon.

Like I said with the above Anon, I've added paragraph breaks for ND readers.

What a mess.

I have absolutely nothing useful to say here about the fandom on AO3 and how it's managed by community members, but I do think it's unfortunate that people choose to be war-like rather than make space for diverse voices, and I think it's a real shame that some people have been essentially run out of the fandom because of this garbage.

Thanks for giving some context for how/why the major shift in tone of fan fic lately. I had no idea any of this was going on.

I urge people to work hard to give space for all voices and perspectives, and not just the ones they favor. I'd also urge people to reflect on how their thoughts, behavior and actions in the fandom might affect queer people in the fandom.

As always, we have no control over what other people do, say or think. All we have any control over is how we respond to what other people do, say or think. Hopefully we'll chose the path of peace and try to avoid fan wars or fights that only ruin the experience for everyone.

I guess one thing I'd ask any of the Anons who have written me about this issue - or anyone who has thoughts about it - is, what can we as readers/fans who care about diversity of voices and perspectives do to support that here and on AO3, without getting involved in any kind of war?

#fan fiction #fandom reflections #top bottom #ask

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ruby-whistler · 3 years

Note

This is targeted at your dream apologist post, just to be up front. Just wanted to give my two cents in on some of the stuff w/o doing a whole rebuttal, since… I don’t really want to lol. To start off, I had an issue with how you framed the beginnings of Lmanberg. How Lmanberg formed wasn’t colonizing, it was just independence from the greater dsmp from a set of members that disliked the way things were ran by Dream (and by more direct extension, the rest of the dsmp citizens, namely sapnap.) Dream was protecting his power, not any kind of attachment made to the server, I’d argue, becuz in the end the way he relinquished control was by gaining more; by getting leverage over one of the original members, Tommy, via taking his discs.

Another thing, you shouldn’t be angry at ppl for not feeling sympathetic for a character that’s done such heinous things against other characters. You’re more then welcome to feel bad for him yourself, but no one else has to. After watching the whole of Tommy’s exile arc, it’s very clear to see the Dream was cruel and horrible to a child that hardly deserved it. Dream was dehumanizing to Tommy. Making him put all of his self earned items into a hole every visit and promptly destroying it all, telling Tommy that his friends don’t miss him, blowing up Logstedshire after finding Tommy’s secret room (that he hid from Dream to stop him from destroying it) filled with Tommy’s resources for escaping, not even allowing him to leave, these aren’t the actions of a good person put into a hard place, or a person with trauma dealing poorly with said trauma. That isn’t justifiable. Dream shouldn’t be allowed to hurt and inflict trauma onto another person becuz he has trauma. What he did to Tommy and to his friends (saying he didn’t care about them, saying he only cares about Tommy’s discs, Sapnap even had that sad moment of “you don’t think he meant it did you?” which. Yknow. Look between the lines methinks) was awful and doesn’t have to be forgiven by either the victims or the fans of said victims.

My opinion on the prison stay is…. I don’t really care lol. I definitely do see it as he deserves it, because what he did to Tommy was horrific. I don’t have any real sympathy for an abuser, especially one that does shit that I’ve had done to me before and done against a character I relate to heavily. So. Sue me if I think that Dream should have his shit rocked. Ignoring that Dream had very clear reasons as to why he was put into the prison and the fact that many characters have reasons to hate his guts and also not feel sympathy for him is…. Definitely the Dream apologist mantra. Noah fence ^^

One last bit since this ask is getting real long, but it was narratively cathartic to see Dream actually receiving punishment for his actions. Cathartic quite literally means “psychological relief through strong emotions” so. Yeah. Sorry ppl were getting it mixed up with catharsis, but there’s the word they probably meant to use. Didn’t realize it would be such a crime to mix up two very similar words but what can you do with a younger audience.

This isn’t meant to be an attack, or mean, so I’m sorry if I’ve been a little passive aggressive in my wording, but to be fair. Your post was as well ^^ Cant wait to hear your response, if you feel like giving one.

Alright, so first as a quick disclaimer, I’m going to out a summary of the original post’s points, just to ensure that we’re on the same page;

The post does say:

- don’t dehumanize c!Dream because it continuously hurts people who relate to and/or sympathize with him, also dehumanization in general is an inherently wrong mindset

- don’t attack people who sympathize with him because he’s a victim of abuse besides other things

The post never says:

- you cannot hate c!Dream and not sympathizing with him is wrong

- the things c!Dream has done are to any degree excused

- don’t dehumanize c!Dream because he’s a good person

- people who dehumanize c!Dream are real life abuse apologists

If you read the post and didn’t get these points from it, i advise you to reread it as I made pretty much all of these abundantly clear.

I don’t know why you’d start talking about L’manberg, but sure; I never said it was colonization. I said some people who have had their country colonized relate to him because he had his home torn apart and is desperate to return it back to its original state. This is a completely valid reason to relate to him as it is a pretty big part of the character.

Dream wasn’t protecting his “power”, because he didn’t actually have any power on the SMP besides technically owning it. Before L’manberg, all he’d do is walk around, fix creeper holes and the prime path, jump into conflicts and end them if they got too pointed - he even fixed Tubbo’s house once after Tommy burnt it down, he got unfairly mugged by Sapnap and Tommy because he had weaker armor etc. He never used his position as landowner unfairly and was on the same level as any other member; his only concern was too keep the community united and semi-peaceful. Of course he had an attachment to the server, it had been his home for months, maybe more on the SMP timeline.

Do you genuinely think listing the bad things he did is going to do anything to my empathy or the empathy of other c!Dream fans?

I saw the entirety of the exile arc live, and I saw what was happening, and I hated it, and I hated c!Dream. Yet I’m sympathetic to him when he goes through a similar situation, perhaps because I’m not a biased hypocrite.

I never said c!Dream was a good person. Saying “these don’t look like actions of a person with trauma” doesn’t make sense to me because, as you said later on, it isn’t justifiable either way. I’m not saying anyone has to forgive him. You don’t need to forgive an abuse victim for their prior actions to recognize their situation is messed up. You’re making up points to fight against in your rebuttal that I never actually said.

I’m not saying “don’t dehumanize c!Dream because he’s a good person”. I’m saying “don’t dehumanize c!Dream because he’s a person and dehumanization is wrong” and “people who relate to him shouldn’t be hurt or harassed”.

He didn’t even do “terrible things” to his friends, by the way. Tommy has said like five times that he doesn’t care about anyone but the discs but when he said that isn’t true his friends believed and forgave him. Dream says it once while something that matters to him is being threatened, so that it doesn’t get destroyed, and suddenly he’s hurting his friends (double standard methinks). As if he didn’t repeatedly try to help them and care about them up until that point and they abandoned him even despite his prior actions. He did things that might’ve hurt them, but that doesn’t compare to the amount of things he did for them. Saying he doesn’t care is blatant mischaracterization.

If you think (fictional) people who have done bad things deserve to be horribly abused and have their basic human rights violated, you know what, you do you. Be a fictional abuse apologist, be as bad as the people who say c!Tommy deserved it, go on. I disagree with you however, and I’m sure many people who are actually sensitive and care about/relate to fictional abuse victims (I have seen many c!Tommy apologists say the torture is awful and he doesn’t deserve it, thankfully) will disagree as well, so why should I care about your wrong opinion? If you’ve dehumanized him and are failing to see you’re incorrect and hurting people, bad for you. You’re just proving me right that this is a very real problem that this community has to do something about.

#tw abuse #tw torture #abuse apologism #c!dream neg #(in ask)#discourse #my asks #crit anon

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transsexualhamlet · 3 years

Text

tg anime vs manga *sighs*

i have the power of hyperfixation and anime on my side! AAAAAAAA

Ok now that we’ve gotten the sins of re post out of the way we need to discuss this. And I just feel that this needs to be covered because I can’t ever get away from constant discourse on this, mostly fueled by manga readers who feel entitled to always think they’re superior for reading the manga, that the manga is the only real canon, that it’s more complex or better, I’m so fucking tired of it. I am also a manga reader, and I tend to get like that sometimes too with many series (for example no. 6 and the promised neverland.) I get it. It can be really annoying to see something butchered on screen to what the original is, changed or represented differently or given a different message or simplified. But just. Some people like the anime and it’s not a goddamn holy war for y’all to fight. It only makes anime fans not want to read the thing even more yknow cause manga readers are pretentious assholes, and I am aware of this as one of them.

(again ok i’d like to mention i know this fandom is basically dead but a certain p*nterest is always like 4 years behind on fandoms so i keep fucking running into Discourse that’s like, still current, whenever i want old random ass content) (and youtube, why do i look at youtube comments, because I personally enjoy being offended? yeah probably)

And that brings me to the point of this anime vs manga.

This is a lot harder to compare than a lot of other series, because there are just... so many more differences not just in the style and vibe but the story itself.

Disclaimer, I’ve never watched the anime for :re and i don’t intend to, because I honestly have no earthly clue how tf you can get from the highly diverged tokyo ghoul root A to re and make it make sense, and I don’t really want A ruined for me. So you can call me biased towards the manga in the case of re, i guess (which makes my eventual conclusion even more strong I’d say) Honestly I just see them as two completely different stories, the manga’s version connecting with re and A just like... ending there. So how we’re drawing the lines is basically tokyo ghoul A versus the manga and :re. God, I know this isn’t a fair fight because I already hate re so much, but I feel like the manga’s story is much more intertwined with :re than the anime’s is, so that’s what we’re going with.

oh god also another disclaimer this opinion is coming from the biggest fucking kanehide whore, you can disregard anything i say if you ship The Straights and/or do not care for my boi hide

To be honest, if I can take my own conclusions and liberties to the story, I like both versions, each have their pros and cons and kind of a conflicting message. They can’t really coexist. Usually I’d consume all versions and then create one consistent canon in my head for what I accept as the true events (for example my main owari no seraph, first season of the anime is canon but after that we only follow the manga since those can come together and make sense.) but it’s very hard to do that in tokyo ghoul, since I must confess... I really like root A. Like of course, it’s a lot different from the manga, but tbh I think it’s super valid. (unlike most Fans TM like this Fan TM who i’m sending this post to just to spite their singular Youtube Comment Section Discourse, yes I did write this post for you and many others like you) But the ideas that make up root A conflict a lot with the ones of the manga, so I just have to accept that they’re separate things and treat them as such.

Now to break it down so people can understand where I’m coming from I guess? God this is already so long here’s a read more

The Case for The Manga (including :re manga)

More Lore + Plot Shit: One of the main reasons that manga readers are pretentious little bitches is a valid reason, namely that, as is the case with most manga, there’s simply more to it than people can fit into an anime. (Although people need to understand that’s because,,, it’s simply a different medium, so it will have different pluses and minuses, such as for example a soundtrack, color, moving pictures,,, you know, all that. Anime onlys don’t say that the anime is better by stating these things that a manga won’t have... because they’re fucking obvious. So manga readers should stop acting like an anime is inherently sub-par for being less in depth, but we digress.) I can understand that reading the manga is kind of important for wanting to understand the lore (though there are like so many other reasons ppl might want to watch it other than to get the lore) and without the explanation of how all this came to be and how it works, everything tends to be really mysterious, confusing, and seemingly random. It’s really nice to know what’s all going on, of course, and stuff like the washuus, rize’s backstory, the explanation for like, kaneki in general, all that- if you’re looking for like, plot shit, manga is definitely your go to. But like, sometimes, you like, don’t actually care about those things.

Haise: Of course one of the most important things about well, including re is that I fucking love Haise. Like he is my favorite Kaneki. He’s just so wonderful, look at him in he glasses and he floofy hair and he striped pants and he energy boxers and he s p i c e and he MOM. And I really like how they took Kaneki’s character and developed it more with Haise, you can see his turnaround from innocent--> Emo--> Trying To Be Innocent Again But Failing and I think that’s really sweet tbh. I rejected that at first because I didn’t understand it but once I actually read re I thought it made a lot of sense and was a logical thing to do with his character. (though, uh, moving forward, after his hair changes again i disagree with it, haise 1.0 is a good take and i love him and i want the best for him) I could go on I’ve already written a post of what I think is wrong with :re so if you want to hear my take on kaneki’s 37 pokemon evolutions that’s in there

Good New Characters: And of course there are my favorite bitches such as quinx squad, oh my god, there was a terminal lack of dumbass squad vibes in the original and ishida fucking gave it to us, I love them, I love them with all my heart and I think that if I wasn’t attached to them I’d probably just cancel all of :re but like this is just my personal problem. God I love them. Ishida always pulls through with characters I’m now too attached to.

Vore Lmao:Ok like hear me out. I just get a laugh out of it every time the manga has to remind me of this little fucking fact. Like ok I just. Cannot get over it. It’s so serious about it too and like I realize it’s a serious deal but o h m y g o d

Ok and now that we’ve got that little rant over I do want to say that it is like actually really important past the “lmao that’s pretty gay” bit, like??? In some ways it’s more fitting than the anime because well, ishida’s point always seems to be “what would mentally and physically hurt kaneki the most right now” and does it because that’s who this bitch is. But it just?? Kind of makes a bit more sense for the storyline if we’re being picky here, it’s so,,, painfully on point? Like the entire reason he gave in to Being A Ghoul and all was so he could save his friends and shit (i actually do not remember if this was a thing in the manga but like? when he was being tortured and he like imagined hide being really mad at him and getting killed by jason and shit?) LIKE AND THEN HE GOES AND HAS TO BASICALLY BE THE PERPETRATOR OF THAT HIMSELF, FUCK, it’s a lose/lose situation of “don’t do the bad thing and watch your friends suffer” or “do the bad thing and watch your friends suffer but like, later” ishida please

The meaning of Hide being alive: Ok this is just me crying over chapter 75 still but like. Instead of in the anime, where hide’s point seems to be that instead of letting kaneki sacrifice anything more he’d be the one to give his life up and such, and save kaneki, in the anime tbh he just really wanted to be with kaneki right then?? and like ouch but understanding that in the manga he wasn’t just planning on dying and leaving kaneki to deal with it afterward he wanted to go on and continue to try to help the guy no matter the shit he had to go through, no matter if the dude just like forgot that he existed for two years and all- LIKE UH CAN WE TALK ABOUT HOW HIDE DOESN’T EVEN EXPECT ANY APOLOGY? like kaneki’s like “OH MY GOD I’M SUCH A TERRIBLE PERSON” and hide’s like lmao nah it’s cool i’m thriving- that his big motto was “live” rather than “peace out motherfuckers it’s been fun”. Cause. Fucking. Ishida. Can’t kill off characters well but like at least he made keeping this one alive justified.

The D e t a i l s: Ok well I feel like this is something everyone knows but the anime is missing a lot of really,,, crunchy details that the manga throws in there, like, well, kaneki’s fucking,,, bones thing, and other assorted details, g o d like those are missable if you want to never understand half the memes but also like,,, sometimes you just gotta read that shit. It also like, makes more sense when you do but sometimes it’s just stupid things that aren’t important but are fucking hilarious.

The Flavor: In general I’d say the greatest difference between the anime and the manga is the general flavor of the thing, the vibe in the manga is a lot, to be frank, darker and grosser and bloodier than the anime, which is a lot more focused on being pretty and Tragic than “HOLY SHIT WTF” but like. That’s valid. With that comes it being a lot more, real, and although the art may not be as polished as the anime’s, sometimes that’s exactly what you need, and the really gritty sketchy shit that’s in the manga sometimes is exactly what it’s supposed to be for the manga. (in the anime, i’d say that the colored and polished style fits it better, so we’re good there.) It’s a lot more real, in the manga, when the anime hesitates to “go there” a lot (and well, sometimes that’s welcome, but sometimes it’s like y o u g u y s c o m e o n r e a l l y maybe i DID want to see that did you ever think of that)

So like, to sum it up i’d just like to say it’s more detailed, sharper and darker and is simply So Much. There is just More Content

The Case for Root A

ON THE OTHER HAND, (buckle up fuckers)

Depth of Emotion (that Ishida was too much of a pissbaby for): God like you know what I mean if you read the last post, we spent a whole episode on these gay fucks in root A, with backstory and dreams and drawn out suspense and emotion and GUYS LOOK AT THEM NO REALLY OH MY GOD YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND HOW IMPORTANT THIS IS whereas hide’s limelight in the manga is a whole... two pages, oh whoopee, and that’s mostly due to the fact of ishida putting himself in a spot of “oh fuck goddamn if i drew that in i’d get flagged for gay porn” but that’s his own fault, so he downplays the whole scene and really keeps it in the dark, whereas in this anime it’s understandably a lot less,,, like that, but how it plays out here is simply... really nice and makes you cry and shit, whereas in the manga I’d go “oh god oh damn oh fuck” *laughs my ass off because i really can’t take this seriously*. You get just... more here.

To elaborate on this, in the anime, as a gay fucking bastard, I can get practically an endless amount of content from episode twelve, and endlessly stew over all Those Things about it, every hard hitting line, the expressions, the music making it even sadder, the ways the VAs say the words, the cinematic beauty of the blood dripping on the floor and like how it’s supposed to make you think it’s kaneki’s, GOD I COULD FUCKING GO ON, but if we want to get that in the manga...

we get three incredibly basic lines, a blackout, and then a “QUICK LET’S MOVE ON TO SOMETHING ELSE BEFORE ANYONE NOTICES THE IMPLICATIONS OF THAT HAHA”

So if we want to have more, we need to write it. (sadly) None of it is ever played out canonically so like,,, all we can do is infer and make shit up. It’s like, I am a writer so like that’s my whole job but I really would rather have more content, and have the content that’s there get to be emotional instead of *blank face* “this is plot that is happening, sadly” but like maybe it’s just bc i’m gay

Really Fucking Beautiful (aesthetically as well as story-wise): This kind of just goes hand in hand with the depth of emotion bit, and I think it can’t really compared to the manga here because I’m gay so I see pretty colors and cry so the anime is understandably appealing for me, but I’m also talking emotionally, yeah. There’s a lot of plotlines and implications of the story that are really well played out, I always love to watch the original because it does a very good job handling a lot of the harder topics and stuff that makes the whole thing worthwhile- like the whole point you’re supposed to see that the ghouls and humans are both just as monstrous when you break it down, that there are good and bad people on both sides, everyone just wants to live and feel good in their own life and perspective, everyone has reasons that justify their behaviour in their mind, sometimes you just can’t win no matter what, all that... they’re all really important messages and make the whole story, and they were handled much more delicately and with more expertise in the anime.

It’s hard to pin down, but I feel like the manga was just based more on Fight Scenes Characters OoH Fake Science and kind of just gave kaneki infinite power ups after Trying Harder no offense, obviously those things were there and they were still very good in the manga it’s just sometimes they were cheapened a lot by ishida really not keeping track of what he’s trying to say with his story and sacrificing it a lot for “BUT WHAT IF KANEKI’S HAIR AND IDEALS CHANGED AGAIN” instead of making it a whole cohesive work. (and yes, I am VERY aware of your “well aCtuAlLy the hair represents his sanity” thing i know i know and i’m about to rip it to fucking shreds so)

Understandable Character Development And Staying True To It: Which brings me to this point, character development. This was another thing that was just... handled with more expertise in the anime, whoever was in charge of it. Mostly this has to do with Kaneki, since like, no offense but he’s the only one who ever gets much character development other than like, juuzou (asmr you only get character development if your hair color changes) oh and i guess there’s tsukiyama but he’s someone who shouldn’t have gotten character development. Touka gets character development only before re for some reason, and like tbh that’s kind of it. I do think Juuzou’s character development was valid, because well... it made sense? I complained about it before because I was like “well he just turns into spicy L” but i’ve since changed my opinion, he’s best boy. But Kaneki? They went way overboard with him in the manga, and generally? Calm tf down ishida.

Breaking it down, one of the main things that most of the tried and true manga stans seem to hate about the anime the most is Kaneki going over to Aogiri in root A. Since they’re much more acclimated to the manga, they don’t understand why he would do that (quoting a particular ‘probably made sense in the manga!’ yes i know that whole thing was poking fun at the show and i felt it lmao) and they just pin it to “ahaha he has now become Edgy for the fans ehehe time to make fun of him” and TO BE FAIR YOU’D BE COMPLETELY RIGHT. I love to make fun of Kaneki when he does his edgy bitch thing because that’s what he is. A basic edgy bitch who is just,,, such a main character. But like. He does actually have his reasons despite popular opinion and to be honest I think they’re a bit more valid than in the manga, where he’s just like “well I’ve been tortured, that was not pleasant and i kinda did a bad thing, let’s go back to anteiku but i’m just gonna Try Harder To Fight this time”. I can understand that, but like, it seems like in the manga every Character Development of kaneki is some form of “i will now be stronger” except for the singular “I will now be a different person” which, well, we’ll get to that.

In the anime though, even if it seems like more of a basic edgy bitch move, it’s like?? It makes perfect sense to me, and to be honest more than the manga does? Obviously he doesn’t wanna be best bros with Aogiri, he realizes they’re all bad people who have done really terrible things, but the fact is he now sees himself as the same thing, he now understands their motives because in his mind he is also now Bad TM. His whole character development of being tortured was that peace wasn’t an option no matter how much he wanted it, he couldn’t live being a pacifist and the world was forcing him to give the “i am the only one that understands! we need to stop fighting!” bullshit up because there was no way to achieve it. He realized if he kept himself the way he was more people he loved would be hurt like they already had because he couldn’t, so he doesn’t just Decide To Become Stronger, he gives up his humanity. And that includes basically letting himself defend his own actions and try to do “the right thing”.

Him then joining aogiri makes sense because well. They’re the people who are the strongest, who have the power, who are the same as he sees himself. He still wants to protect the people he loves, he just also realizes he can’t do it by working with them since he now understands that their more peaceful ways will by definition get them fucking killed. His understanding is flawed, of course. He’s not really right. But this is his understanding and from that it makes perfect sense for him to join up with aogiri and try to still do as much as possible from that standpoint, realizing that most likely the people he’s trying to protect will hate him for it. I think that makes sense to me, what do you not understand about it? (I also understand that may make some people mad because he’d Doing Bad Things but I point to you he’s so soft, remember when he was really nice to naki when he was literally the one who killed the guy naki was crying about? remember when he was doing a raid and he saw that guy hiding and he never mentioned it? remember like the seventy times he Cried TM, yeah he’s problematic obviously but if you want problematic I’ll point you to a certain fucking black reaper. Shironeki has nothing on that asshole.)

I think what Kaneki did in the manga was fine, but in general the anime (again) had more depth of understanding and emotion versus a steady Try Harder Get Stronger shonen deal, which, well, fair, but like, nah. Continuing why I think the anime dealt it better is the ending of A, which was a lot more well rounded then *kaneki gets stabbed and then there’s a lot of random plot shit going on in the background*. Here Kaneki then got to round out the end of his character development by realizing slowly through the second half of this season, him becoming a kakuja and then basically deciding like, not to

((kakuja kaneki was dealt with again different in the anime and manga because he basically stopped trying to use it in the anime bc he realized it was a bad fucking idea but this goes along with the ‘his character development of “i’m gonna do bad things for good reasons” --> “actually no wait that was a bad idea” was actually done in root A instead of being dragged out into :re and it’s appropriate for its own medium and the messages it’s trying to get across so manga loyalists hate it’ but we digress))

So in root A we got to see him actually develop and realize himself through the second half of the season starting with cochlea, his interactions with Amon, and ultimately through Hide, that he’d been doing the wrong thing by becoming more monstrous/fighting harder because what he did was ended up forgetting the most important thing, *smiles in gay* HIDE.(well, his humanity. yeah. i cite the terrible opening for root A with the fun ‘the hands taking off kaneki’s mask are hide’s’ bit.) He then remembered again why he wanted so bad to stop the war between humans and ghouls, he wanted to be able to live in peace and not have to be a monster- something that was not dealt with in the manga (though for understandable reasons of We Need To Fuck With Him In Re More, they then didn’t deliver on creating something like that later so I take this.)

That’s most of the difference between the original manga and anime, but I’d also like to discuss (briefly, I’ve already yelled about them) the ridiculous amount of hurdles ishida went through to fuck with kaneki in the manga, Of course there is the fact that well, the slower transition of his character does make some more sense for the manga because if you take :re into consideration, his eight billion character changes are more tolerable when they haven’t like, already happened before in the manga (just the anime). It makes more sense there for Haise to be tormented by past kaneki telling him He’s Too Weak because in the manga he hasn’t already had that development prior to “dying”, and he lost his memories still believing he had to be strong even if he did bad things, whereas in the anime it doesn’t track because at the end like i just said he kind of gives up his ghoulhood on purpose because he realizes that joining aogiri and fighting and shit was really wrong because, hide. So I can see why those character decisions were not made in the original when planning for :re, but... the fact remains that those previous decisions do not make up for how absolutely weak :re’s game ended up being with kaneki.

So tldr this entire section, All the manga’s defense of how they handled Kaneki’s development is basically void because all those choices were buildup for development in :re which ishida then COMPLETELY fell down on. So the alternative is better.

And now comes my yelling about how exactly Ishida fucked it up: hair colors and kaneki’s 80 kanekis. If black is supposed to represent sane and white is supposed to represent insane or, whatever, i dunno, who tf thought black reaper kaneki was sane? Who tf would think kaneki in the end isn’t? I haven’t looked into this really, and I’d really love it if someone explained it to me the way ishida was going for bc I do not understand it. Like that tracks with Juuzou, and with Kaneki up to Haise Original, but they don’t really make a cohesive sense seeing as after Haise’s hair color changed again that whole deal kind of goes to shit. Not to mention... I just... they completely failed to make those character changes actually part of the story, I’m mostly complaining about black reaper haise, none of him makes any sense. What’s his deal? He wants to protect who he loves? Tracks with the ghouls but fun fact he abandoned his kids? He actually cared for them? What then, he wants to be the strongest as possible? Sure but then?? Why?? I don’t understand his motives at all.

We also didn’t get to see him get his memories back either, which I was actually very much looking forward to, it just,,, like all of a sudden he’s talking with eto about yoshimura and i’m like bruh when tf did that happen? It’s bad, and although chapter 74-76 is super valid, and his change back into white hair kaneki makes sense, I also have the complaint about how haise basically disappeared just like he was worried he would. I think that was bad and I’ve said that already, it doesn’t make sense, he just literally throws those entire two years away to go back to the way he was before he was with the CCG and just forgets everything he’s wanted for the last few years? Fiction logic test fucking failed, and you’ve also broken my heart. Love Haise. You got rid of him. I love kaneki too but like. Why don’t they just. Like. Merge. He is one whole complex person, not one and an imposter, god.

This is a big negative for re and the manga, so automatically a positive for root A where I simply Do Not Have To Deal With That Bullshit and the character development actually makes sense. I can understand the decisions in the original manga could have set up for good development in :re, but they completely failed to deliver.

root a didn’t fast forward to re at the end god damn let us process this shit first before you try to connect it to something else: The thing with this point is that it’s really difficult to separate the original manga from the continuing story in :re because the thing intertwines so much and immediately moves us forward with a ton of plot points for the next part of the story before we’re done with this climax and the end of this story. Sometimes that’s ok and I can see doing that from an author’s perspective because you want people to continue reading your story instead of taking that as the end but it’s really annoying on a reader’s end, because I’m picky and I want to be able to just be able to enjoy my original canon without it like, metaphorically touching :re on a plate. It’s something that I don’t even do with my own longer stories, like for example I have like a trilogy of >100k fics that like, well i’m technically not done with them but like.

People really like the first one because it’s more focused on a more popular ship and basic elements people like about the thing, and then by the second book it moves on to talk more about the plot and lore and brings in more secondary characters. And so I knew that a lot of the readers of the first one wouldn’t want to have to deal with a lot of the “oh well stuff is happening elsewhere that will effect stuff later!!!” random plot shit that none of my readers actually cared about. So I kept it to wrapping up the points of the first book and then leaving the introduction of new characters and plot for the people who actually wanted to read it. Ishida didn’t do that, and of course it’s within his right to like?? Want to promote the next series but I’d have enjoyed it more if we ended it at kaneki’s “death” and wrapping up the deals with the rest of the characters instead of quickly shoving in the beginning of seventy more plotlines before the book ends. Like honey I simply do not have the reading comprehension for that. In the anime we get something that... makes sense.

In the anime, however, it’s quite the opposite, for example the reveals like Eto=owl=takatsuki sen were pushed before that and they saved episode twelve for, well, the end bit. Like what was actually the ending. There were detriments to this I had to say (LIKE GUYS I GET IT HE’S CARRYING HIDE HE’S CARRYING HIM I GET IT YOU’VE BEEN DOING IT FOR HALF THE EPISODE NOW OK I UNDERSTAND CAN WE MOVE ON) But like, I prefer the concept of a simple idea with as much emotion squeezed out of it as possible to a ton of confusing and contradicting ideas that are touched on for a second before moving on. So the *cries for half an hour* ending was much more appealing to me, and I can keep that separate in my head from any of the ideas that :re creates, letting me pretend it doesnt exist and imagine that’s the end and there’s nothing else to worry about. If we want to move forward and hear more, then we can, but it isn’t necessary like it is with the manga.

No Bad Takes that are hard to pry apart from good plot and characters:This is basically the downsides of the new characters, which is well, if I had to make a whole ~keep reading~ post about how problematic everything in re was that does have to count as a downside. I love the new characters, but they also come intertwined with a thousand really bad takes on like, everything, and of course I can ignore it and just act as though they were written in like, to be perfectly honest, a non transphobic way, it’s a real downside when the original anime was pretty pain-free in the way of their takes on their characters. They fucked everyone up in re and I will not elaborate, we’ve talked about this, it’s just the anime, and which i mean season 1 and root A, don’t really have any bad takes I need to try to get rid of, it’s surprisingly something I have little complaint about at all and I ALWAYS have complaints.

Hide!!!!: Obviously, you can tell that a lot of my opinions are going to be hide based because he’s the only thing I ever think about. But we have to take into account just how... hide???? This goes a lot into the depth of emotion bit but it also offers the other side of the argument for Hide’s part in the :re manga, which well. Was mostly chapter 75 if we’re going to be perfectly honest here. He doesn’t get any other limelight. Even in the chapter where Kaneki meets him again he gets a whole what, three pages? In the manga, he has an extremely valid deal about basically, living, keeping going no matter what, and that is a fitting part for the manga, considering the rest of the points there ride more on Keep Fighting instead of Think About Your Emotions And Morals, but honestly chapter 75 was really valid. So why do I still think the anime’s version where he like (ok I don’t know about the re anime we’ve discussed this, i don’t even know how they choose to explain that) he like, dies in kaneki’s arms is better overall? Again, I would have totally accepted that deal if it was made a part of the story because it made me cry, it was super valid, and if they’d continued in that way I would have agreed with it completely over that. But the fact is again that they failed to deliver, and Hide got largely ignored, suffered so much with so little outcome. There was so much buildup and it was incredibly valid, but when the time came for them to meet again and basically show... why it was important that Hide lived in the end?

They didn’t. They straight up didn’t. Kaneki’s like “oh sorry bro... glad you’re alive and all...” *goes off and fights* and like? Honestly? @everlastingspiral is right, if that’s all they’re gonna do with him what’s the point of keeping him alive? I love every single panel of him and I wouldn’t have read re if he didn’t, but hide gets absolutely NO payoff. For letting kaneki literally vore his entire mouth off, leaving him disfigured and unable to talk, then kind of disappearing for two years and doing seemingly nothing but trying to help kaneki even though he’d forgotten the guy existed, risks his life like a thousand fucking times, eventually gets back to him and the dude’s running a fucking anti-human organization, helps him like Not Be A Volitile Pile Of Flesh Anymore and then what should have been a very important moment of them meeting again gets completely overshadowed by touka and random plot shit and more fights and they barely interact, they don’t even hug or anything, they barely talk, and at the end hide is still there but to be honest he’s gotten absolutely no thanks for all he did and ishida acts at the end as though he’s done very well with hide and gives him a tiny bit at the end throwing in a tragic backstory for fun (which hot take he really didn’t fucking need on top of it all) and... there’s no real hint that Kaneki is better off with Hide there, even though there should be. In 75, in his dream, kaneki is sobbing and crying and all like i’m so lonely without you but when they actually meet each other again? “yo” “hey” “uh sorry about,,, the thing,,, you know” “nah man it’s ok” “let me talk about myself for a bit” “yes you always do do you want to hear what I’ve been up to” “not really” “that’s fine i’m only here to support you”

...So you can understand why I’ve gone a bit sour on that. If that’s all you’re going to give him? Hot take? Let him die. Hide deserves better. (and i will deliver that in writing, but for the purposes of canon.)

In the anime, however (not counting re again... although he still gets the short end of the stick just in the original manga too compared to the anime) he’s properly dealt with! he gets his proper limelight and he gets acknowledged for what he’s done thusfar in the story, which is already so much. Kaneki then realizes that, but it’s already too late (or it isn’t, and they like negotiate with the ccg and then they get to live happily ever after) either way he gets appreciated and he gets hurt, but it’s properly acknowledged. And after all that, after saving kaneki and getting him to the cafe and doing it all while bleeding the fuck out, he gets to spend that time with kaneki and die in kaneki’s arms. And frankly? That’s all I think he’s ever needed. It’s really poetic and pretty and brings kaneki’s character around full circle, and even if it’s overly sappy, cliche, drawn out... he gets the attention he’s due and he gets a fucking break. He wanted to show Kaneki he wanted to do something for him and save him instead of the other way around, but then HE GOT ACKNOWLEDGED FOR THAT, instead of just well, tirelessly working towards it forever and having to be content to be a background character with practically no value to Kaneki anymore.

Keeps The Same Vibe: The big thing about this is that with the manga and with re, shit just goes all over the place, and I feel like I’ve amply showed that already through this essay or whatever this is. Again about the consistency and the professionalism, It’s a concise story that makes more sense than the manga while also being simply neater and more deep, making sure all the points, themes and messages work together and make sense to create a cohesive deal even if it’s not as long. (the manga is like ishida had a TON of good ideas for an essay but then fleshed out the thing ten minutes before deadline and managed to completely lose what his original thesis was even if the thing was 10 pages long.) Basically. yeah. That kind of sums it up, my last point concerns the ending.

Not Cheap Ending: If you want to hear my take about how absolutely terrible re’s ending was, check out my The Many Sins Of Tokyo Ghoul :Re post, and we’ve discussed how the original’s manga ending was bad and well not really an ending, it just leaves you unfulfilled and takes you into “well I guess I have to start a whole nother sequel series ig...” but root A like? Actually ends it? If a reader didn’t know that there was any content after that, they could pretty much infer that hide’s death or almost death whatever you inferred out of that ending (again we’re ignoring re) allowed Kaneki to finish his character development and realize they needed to stop the war, which basically tracks with what’s going on in everyone else’s perspective- eto’s problem with the world because of what happened with everything, is basically like, all of aogiri, juuzou and shinohara, amon and akira and kaneki and they can realize all they have to do is just sit down and fucking stop it because none of them want to be fighting, hide is the catalyst for that because the CCG can see how Kaneki cares for him? And it’s so open ended that you could just like literally believe that and there’d be no way for that canon to tell you otherwise, or you could go onto re and whatever if you wanted to. I think that’s the best thing.

In conclusion, both have valid points, and in general I’d say that the manga goes better with :re and the anime is better as a stand alone but if I had to choose overall, this particular anime is better (taking into account only seasons 1 and 2), for mostly the reasons of favoring a simpler story taken with much more care and depth versus a more complex story with many, MANY imperfect elements, and I am aware I will get shot on sight for this opinion. So sue me.

#tokyo ghoul #hideyoshi nagachika #kaneki ken #tokyo ghoul :re #essay post #god i've been writing this for so fucking long #but i'm right #y'all fuckers asked for a fight? you're getting a fight #rowan's hyperfixation essays

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babysizedfics · 4 years

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I need to know about doctor mama lo taking care of a sick baby Virgil if you would like pretty please. I dont wanna ask on the in character blog cuz I feel like it would be weird to ask for details and lo seems kinda busy anyway lol.

hey tumblebee!! yeah yeah lets do this, Im gonna write it so that ppl who dont follow the other blog can understand too

WARNING IF U HAVENT ALREADY BLOCKED THE TAGS ILLNESS TW AND VOMIT TW THEY ARE VERY PREVALENT IN THIS

also this is a VERY long headcanon!!

so last night vee got ill, he had been regressed in the afternoon with patton and he was acting much more fussy than usual - not being entertained by his cartoons, not having the energy to play with his rattle, pretty much constantly whining and pouting and he gets very wriggly when he's fussy

patton assumed it was because vee had been upset earlier that day. at one point vee started gripping his stomach, and patton assumed its because he was hungry and could smell the food roman was cooking

but when dinner came around no matter how hard patton tried he couldnt get vee to eat a morsel - he kept turning his head away from the food and whining. at one point patton and logan both managed to convince him to eat a spoonful but his face crumpled with a wince and it looked almost painful for him to swallow it. it was at this point logan noticed he had a faint sheen of sweat on his forehead

things fell into place quickly after that - logan checked his temperature and it was indeed slightly higher than was healthy, they noticed vee's hands were trembling and he was constantly on the verge of tears :(

while patton cleared away dinner and excused roman who wanted to go and craft in his room, logan took vee to his bedroom and tried to check for more symptoms, since vee was non verbal and unresponsive totheir questions. he tested his tummy by pushing it a little to see if the pain got worse when he released it (this is a test for appendicitis) but there was no reaction thankfully except vee being upset by logan not cuddling him. he checked his throat for any redness or infection, nothing.

vee's crying became more pronounced and eventually he was in constant tears, occassionally pleading 'mama mama' through sniffles and hiccups and whines of pain :(( Patton brought him a baby bottle of cooled tea made with fresh mint leaves since that is supposed to help stomach pains. though he left the room again since logan thought it was best not to crowd virgil. Vee's crying had dissipated but he was strangely silent and seemed almost loopy now. he only drank a little of the tea before he pushed it away with a gag.

logan immediately took him to the bathroom knowing what was coming, and sure enough vee threw up into the toilet, crying between gags. logan dutifully managed to keep vee in his lap the whole time and held his hair and rubbed his back, telling him he was such a good boy the whole time

Thankfully it didnt last long as there wasnt much in vees stomach to be emptied. he was shivering and sweating and flushed and had lost all energy. he wasnt even crying anymore, just whimpering under his breath. with a bit of a struggle logan managed to show him how to rinse his mouth out with mouthwash - though he had to hold vee over the sink and pat his back to make sure he didnt swallow it

during all of this patton wasnt able to help because of his heightened empathy, if he sees someone throwing up the likeihood is he will too and that wiuldnt be very helpful! so instead he drives to the store to pick up some medicine and ice pops - and comes back with half the store including some actual baby medicine smh - ((im actually begging u to read that linked post i think its so funny))

it was originallly meant to be logans night to put roman to bed but understandably patton took on that task instead. after roman was drifting off patton pokes his head into vee's room. he had hoped to find lo and vee asleep but they werent. they were lying in the dark with an in the night garden audio story playing on a portable speaker and with vees salt lamp and star night light lighting up the room in a soft glow.

logan offered a strained little smile and nod to patton as he stroked vee's hair and cuddled him close. vee was completely out of it honestly. his body was wholly lax against his mama, his lips were in a permanent pout and his eyes were puffy and wet. he barely even acknowledged his papa coming in, his teary eyes just settled on him for a moment then dropped back to the bedsheets without a reaction. he kept lifting his thumb up to suck on it but logan kept capturing it and apologising as he brought it away. Vee shouldnt suck on his thumb and logan doesnt want to give him a paci while he's ill. understandably, baby vee was completely miserable.

patton asks if logan thinks vee could handle a popsicle or plain crackers at the moment but logan disagrees. he doesnt expect either of them to get much sleep so he will make sure vee eats something in a few hours. with a gentle kiss on vee's forehead patton goes off to bed, confident that logan will be able to look after vee and will come get him if theres any issues

logan and vee really dont sleep much at all. Vee drifts off for a few minutes at a time then gasps awake from vivid fever dreams. logan keeps ice cubes in a bowl by the bed for vee to suck on if he needs to cool down and wraps a couple in a flannel to press to vee's head when his fever rises in the middle of the night.

around 3am logan jolts awake and realises he had drifted off. and vee isnt anywhere in the room. he panics momentarily, bolting up from the bed and dashing to the closet to see if virgil is in there - which he tends to do when he is overwhelmed - but then he hears sniffling from the bathroom.

he finds vee, no longer regressed, curled up against the side of the bathtub with his bangs clinging to his sweaty head. vee is the palest person logan knows but he looks positively grey at the moment

'can i help in any way?' he asks, aware that he doesnt need to baby talk at the moment but still eager to look after this bundle of miserableness

virgil just groans under his breath and clutches his knees to his chest. 'i.. i didnt know what to do with the..' he gestures vaguely to something on the floor

logan notices virgil, being not regressed anymore, had obviously wrestled off the diaper he had been changed into the night before and not known how to dispose of it

'its ok, ive got it' logan wraps it up in a bag and puts it in the trash can they have in the room for just this purpose

'sorry.. m stupid' virgil croaks

'You're not stupid.' logan says firmly as he washes his hands 'You're ill and probably delirious from the fever. it's alright virgil'

theres quiet for a bit longer, virge's head pressed against the porcelain edge of the bathtub likely in an attempt to cool his fever. logan stays there with him for a while just waiting. then suddenly virgil starts sobbing and buries his face in his hands.

'sweetheart, tell me whats wrong please' logan hurries to kneel beside him, lifting his hands away from his face. that wouldnt help the fever

'i dont feel well' virgil cries pathetically, tears rolling down his face.

logans heart breaks 'no, you dont. i'm sorry little one, i know its not nice'

at the nickname virgils thumb raises to his lips again, which logan hurriedly intercepts. 'i'll make you a deal, okay? you're allowed to use a pacifier, but you have to use the same one everyday until you are better. we will need to sterilise it every night too.'

vee sniffles and nods, then chokes 'm not a baby right now though'

'that doesnt matter. you dont need to be regressed to want one of your pacis, vee'

vee is unresponsive and starts scratching at his pyjama pants. logan gets a feeling he isnt saying something. then he notices virgil's pout is much more infantile than his adult ones. 'are you feeling little, baby?'

with a harsh shake of his head vee starts crying again. he whispers 'dont wanna be a b...' then cuts himself off and whimpers

logan cards his fingers through virgils damp bangs. he knows what virgils mind has jumped to. 'were you going to say you dont want to be a baby?' he lifts virgils chin up to look at him 'or that you dont want to be a burden?'

virgils pale lip wobbles 'same fing'

'no sweetheart, no no no,' logan sits on the tiles beside vee and pulls him into his lap. virgil goes willingly. logan rocks his baby as he says 'youre always always allowed to be a baby and its never ever going to upset your family. even if you're an adorable wonderful brave baby boy alllll of the time' he scribbles his finger on virgils rosy cheek and delights at the tiny smile it earns him. 'but especially when you're feeling yucky. you feel a bit yucky today dont you, little one?'

vee nods with a pout

'but yknow whats not yucky? softies and pacis and diapers and lots and lots of cuddles with mama' he holds virgil tighter to prove his point. vee sighs and drops his head to nuzzle against his mama's neck. logan feels he still has a slight fever. 'i know what might help you feel less yucky. does my sweet baby want a sweet ice pop?'

thankfully vee nods against his shoulder and grips tight onto his pyjama shirt, preparing for when logan lifts him up

he first makes sure to change vee into another diaper and even decides that he should wear one of mama's t-shirts as a light dress so he doesnt get as overheated by his pyjamas. at this point vee actually giggles for the first time pretty much all day as he feels the tshirt swish lazily around his legs. logan makes a mental note to observe whether little vee might want to try wearing dresses if the feeling sparks this much joy (at this point logan is unaware that vee has secretly been trying skirts and dresses in his room for months, and roman found out a few weeks ago, but vee isnt ready to tell the cgs yet)

by the time vee is in his diaper and mamas tshirt dress and has a paci and jiji clutched to his chest he is a lot calmer and happier. he's still very ill and exhausted and teary, but theres a tiny smile on his face instead of a pout. in the kitchen he picks a strawberry ice pop and it goes down well, logan convinces him to have a cracker too though vee is in such a young headspace by then that he is just sucking on it, which logan supposes is fine too

by the (real) morning vee is still regressed and has managed to have a couple hours undisturbed sleep. its not much but its better than nothing. logan didnt fare much better. by then vee misses his papa and asks for him and logan hands the responsibility over to papa patton, trustinf the other caregiver enough to catch up on a quick power nap himself

but yes, the main thing is vee thought being ill was a burden enough that he shouldnt be regressed too, but logan makes him see that its okay. vee is regressed pretty much the whole time he is ill over the next few days because its stressful and painful and its a lot easier to feel comforted when ur a baby

yeah! gosh that was long, theres probably a billion spelling mistakes! feel free to ask follow up Qs if i missed anything u wanted to know abt this event

#little/big concepts #illness tw #vomit tw #food mention #long post #asks #tumblebee the smol bean

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silver-wield · 4 years

Text

Cloti Resolution Analysis

So I was sent an ask about analysing the promise scene between Cloud and Tifa, and I completely went to another plane of existence and did the Resolution instead. Oh well, enjoy the breakdown and I’ll get to bby Tifa and Cloud another time.

Ok, spoiler warning for ppl who haven't played (I tag FF7R spoilers as final fantasy 7 remake spoilers) and it's gonna be a VERY long one so prepare to scroll.

Also, this is one person's interpretation of the scene, so if you disagree that's cool and we'll agree to disagree.

You're also gonna have to excuse the janky quality on some of the screens, I'm grabbing them from Youtube and it's frustrating af trying to get the exact moment I want.

Other analyses if anyone's interested.

Shinra HQ vision scene (Cloti/plot analysis)

Chapter 3 (Cloti reblog)

Tifa character analysis

Aerith Resolution (plot analysis)

Train graveyard (not really an analysis, but I got some sweet screenshots of Cloti)

Clotiscrew tunnel analysis

Now, strap in and enjoy the ride.

Ok, recapping for anyone who hasn't seen this yet.

We begin with Cloud waking, having heard someone leaving the house. He checks, it's not Barret, so he goes out to investigate and spies Tifa staring at the night sky.

Now from this there's actually an unmentioned possibility Cloud decides Tifa doesn't want company and leaves. This obviously doesn't happen because he's developed his character to the point where he'd put himself out for someone else and find out what's wrong. The point I’m making is that Cloud is that guy who’d say “Not interested” and leave, but because he cares about Tifa, he stays.

Right away we get hints of concern on his face. Obviously, with everything they just went through and all the people they lost he's expecting something along those lines when he asks if she can't sleep. The head tilt that goes with this has echoes of chapter 3 when he invites Tifa to share her worries, only this time she's got her back to him so can't see it.

Tifa, for her part, isn't very forthcoming. She's quite closed off, almost unwilling to open up and talk. She's probably come out because – as she said – she can't sleep and didn't actually intend for Cloud to follow. She apologises for waking him. There was no intent on her part to force a confidence between them. We can't even see her eyes until she replies, which is intentional on the framing to further express her being closed off. Remember, eye contact matters and a lack of eye contact with the audience means she's hiding from us too.

Damn it, she's so clearly cut up but trying to hold it together here it breaks my heart! I'm trying to figure out if her eyes are already swollen from repressing the urge to cry or if it's my imagination. Either way, she's distracted. She's not focused on Cloud or the conversation that much. A distant, polite answer from her is likely meant to hint she's not up for a chat, which is why I love that Cloud doesn't leave. She needs comforting and he's aware of that.

Demoralised tone of voice. Keeps her back to him. Head bowed. She's totally in her own head at this point and having woken Cloud up is just another black mark. She wanted to be alone and wallow, but she can't even do that right. So, when Cloud brushes it off and even goes so far as to make a light-hearted joke – yes him saying it's a SOLDIER thing isn't about him drawing attention to the fact he's succeeded with that part of their promise, he's capable enough to protect her – he's saying it to lower her guard, and that's why she laughs. It's the opening he needs to encourage her to talk so he can find out what's wrong.

Ah, the moment people think this scene is all about Aerith. Excuse me while I roll my eyes.

Now, remember, in the previous glimpse of her we saw she had her head bowed. She's not looking at the stars anymore like she would when recalling her and Cloud's promise. She's looking down at the flowers. The same type of flower that Cloud gave her and she put on the counter in Seventh Heaven. This is why she brings up Aerith because she's the flower seller.

We're shown her feet at this point because she's turning. Cloud's little joke has opened her up enough that she believes she can face him. She can confide in him. She asks about the flower not because she's all about Aerith, but because the flower was in Seventh Heaven: her home. And what is the reason she's out there in the first place? Why can't she sleep? Because she just saw everything she holds dear crushed, literally. She watched Biggs and Jessie die – ok we know better but she doesn't. She let Aerith get kidnapped by Shinra and almost got Marlene killed too – yes, she's definitely the type to blame herself for this too. She's lost friends – who knows how many? There's death and fire and it's all because of Shinra, again.

Ah the other moment people believe makes this all about Aerith. That isn't a “I got caught with another woman” look of guilt. That's an “I lied to you,” guilty look because, if you remember, back when Cloud gave Tifa the flower she said, “What's up with you, buying flowers?” and he said, “A guy can change,” making her believe he'd purposely sought out Aerith to buy a flower for Tifa. Obviously, he doesn't want to contradict himself while she's in a heightened state, so he's all “uhhh.” That's an “I don't know what to say so this doesn't hurt her,” look.

Tifa awkwardly laughs it off. Poor thing, her misconception about Cloud's thoughtfulness is shattered without him having to say a word. Putting a brave face on it, but she's disappointed. And that's not because she thinks she's “lost” to Aerith, but she thought something of Cloud that wasn't right. She thought their relationship had moved on more at that point, which further supports the subsequent intimate moments between them. Now, she's wondering if anything she knew is right.

And that is clear disappointment that he didn't actually do it on his own initiative. Regret hits hard when it comes, right, Cloud?

It goes on with Tifa explaining she looked up the meaning of the flower – now we don't know when, but it's safe to assume it's around the time of the reactor 5 mission when Cloud goes missing. She likely got back to Seventh Heaven, spotted the flower, linked its importance to Cloud and then looked up the meaning. When she saw it symbolised reunion, she did everything she could to keep it alive as a symbol of hope they'd meet again. They'd be reunited. It isn't symbolising anything to do with Aerith. The reason she even brings it up is because of where they are. It's the location that prompts the association.

Now, remember, Tifa has lived through a massive tragedy once before. She literally lost everyone in Nibelheim. It's stated in other media that Shinra rounded up survivors and gave them to Hojo – they became numbered experiments or died. Tifa is the only survivor and she only made it out because her teacher, Zangan, found her. It's also implied that anyone else from Nibelheim was tracked down and killed to silence them after Shinra remade the town – so on the off chance that Tifa went to Midgar to find people she knew, she wouldn't find any in the town and when she asked after Cloud at Shinra she was told he went missing, which explains why she says she's so glad to have Cloud back.

When she says the flower is dead and buried, she's relating it not to her relationship with Cloud – I mean he is literally ten feet in front of her listening to her and offering a shoulder to cry on. No, she's relating the flower to the location. She's talking about her home. Where before she linked it to reuniting with Cloud, once she learned about the danger to sector 7 she linked the flower to reuniting with the people most dear to her there. These are people she's known for five years. She's not a callous, unfeeling bitch, who only focuses on herself and some dude she's just got back in touch with. It's clear from NPC dialogue while you're running around that Tifa is very much loved and respected – and crushed on – in the slum. The people love her and she loves them. She wanted them to be safe more than anything. Her entire arc getting back to the sector is filled with panic. Her focus is her home and the hope she finds it and the people safe.

So, now she's saying that hope she clung to, like the flower, is dead.

And there it is, the brave smile that falters. She's trying so hard to not burden anyone because – as Marle says later on – crying is pointless. Remember, Marle is the one who looked after Tifa, which means Marle's mindset is the one Tifa's been exposed to from 15 to 20. Remember, Tifa is only 20 years old. She's not some grizzled warrior, she's a young girl who had to watch her father die, her town get burned to the ground and be left alone. The only survivor. Until Cloud. Marle has taught her it's pointless to cry; Avalanche and everyone in it has told her she needs to be tough and hard and unfeeling if they want to succeed. But, Tifa doesn't want anyone to die. Not her friends or her enemies. She's not got that hard core, no matter how much she acts cool and detached.

And this is the point that Cloud is likely hearing about his home for the first time. We know he was there, but it's one of those memories he's shut out. The reminder is one of the few times he doesn't get a flash of pain, either. That soft exhale of surprise, the eyes widening just a touch. Cloud hadn't thought to relate his past to this event, and likely hadn't related it to Tifa, either. He's shut it out, so expected her to, as well. This is a musing expression. He's thinking about what she just said. It hits him this is where her emotions are focused. She's in the past, and that gives him the chance to think about the past. This is what opens him up to needing comfort just as much as she does, because he's not processed his grief either. They're both stuck in that place where they weren't allowed to mourn the people they loved and all they've lost.

Then we're treated to a reminder of the physical distance between them in this scene – which has been a theme between them since the start. There's physical distance, that closes at times, then widens again, highlighting how they're struggling to find their way back to each other for various reasons. Cloud because he can't fully relate to his feelings for her and Tifa because she's too afraid of losing him to truly open up.

And then Tifa takes those few steps – that seemed to take forever – to meet him. She's looking for comfort from the Cloud she knew. The real Cloud. His expression here is surprise because, well, Tifa's just not like that, remember? She's reserved and self-contained. He wasn't expecting her to do this. He's once again confronted with a woman being forward. Only, it's different this time because it's Tifa and he knows and trusts her and has all these complicated feelings he can't define. He knows part of him – the 14 year old who wants his crush to notice him – is ok with this. It's what he wants. That's why he doesn't move. He wants to offer her comfort, be the strong capable SOLDIER he thought she wanted.

Oh, but look, the dawning realisation he's just as upset as she is. His hard expression wavers, just for a moment, and he looks cut up. He doesn't know if he can be the strong SOLDIER right now because, just as she's processing grief, he is too.

Hearing her sob, really sob, is hard for Cloud to take. Just like in the pillar when Jessie said, “Tifa's crying,” and Cloud lost his cool for a moment and felt like a failure. He couldn't prevent any of it. He let her down. Listening to her cry tugs at the latent feelings he has for her, but he's still so wrapped up in that fake persona of what he thinks he should be that he doesn't know what to offer her in comfort. You can hear a couple of attempts at speech, but ultimately he doesn't say anything.

I wasn't gonna screen this bit, but what the hell.

You can see the hesitation in his movements. He doesn't know if he should hug her. Tifa's hand isn't quite touching Cloud as it moves from his side to his shoulder, but then when he pulls her in close there's full contact between them with no space. I mean, he's holding her tight.

After the pan away to the stream – which is likely a nod to the lifestream scene in the OG – we're back with them and Tifa's calmed down somewhat.

Cloud's distracted. We can only guess what he's thinking about, but considering the conversation they just had it's probably a blank with vague unsettled grief about his past that he can't grab hold of. He knows he can relate with Tifa at that moment. He's hugging her so tight he hurts her. He's hugging so tight because he needs comfort from her just as she does from him. He lost people too. He's so in his own head that he doesn't quite hear her say his name at first, and then I speculate he expected to hear something else besides, “you're hurting me,” if that very soft “hmm?” is anything to go by. His head was in a place where the outcome of their moment was different. Hurt/comfort is a thing after all.

And then there's the “oh shit, I can't even comfort her properly” moment. He's dismayed he hurt her when he was supposed to be helping. That boy with a crush is mortified and the grown ass man isn't much better. He's ruined the intimacy and lack of emotional distance by failing. Again.

But that doesn't mean he won't linger until the last possible second before stepping back again. The downturned mouth, frown and concern are clear. He doesn't think he did very much at all for her. Does he feel guilty about hurting her, not being the man she deserves? Possibly. He definitely looks regretful. Likely thinking what he could've done better. He wasn't much help at all to her.

“It's stupid. I know that crying's a waste of time.”

Ah, here's what he can do for her. His physical comfort missed the mark, but this is something he can do. He can reassure her. Get back some of that emotional closeness between them. And it succeeds. Tifa's gratitude is clear in her tearful smile and heartfelt thank you.

Conclusion.

How romantic is this scene? I hear no one asking cause you all made up your minds well before I even started. Well, from my pov, I'd say it's definitely up there, although it's very heavily rooted in hurt/comfort and relying on their childhood closeness to further their intimacy. But, that's ok because plenty of great couples begin like this and there's usually a moment like this within Final Fantasy narratives.

Rinoa/Squall's Ragnarok scene? There was no kissing in that either, but the emotional intimacy was clear. And Squall is just as big a butthead as Cloud tbf.

Tidus/Yuna laughing scene? Hahaha, I bet you thought I'd mention the lake instead? Well, no because that is clearly intimacy on a different level to this. We're at the developing intimacy stage, and that stage in 10 was them confiding in each other and laughing together.

This is Cloud/Tifa sharing their grief and comforting each other. The scenes parallel. Whether or not this means it's canon is up to you to decide, but combined with all the compilation evidence – yeah, I've heard the latest argument that compilation doesn't count anymore and until it's confirmed by Square I'm not listening – it does heavily suggest that Tifa and Cloud's relationship will continue along this route to the endgame where they confirm their feelings for each other under the Highwind.

#cloti #final fantasy 7 remake spoilers #final fantasy 7 remake analysis #cloud strife #tifa lockheart #resolution scene #the promise scene actually relates to this too because of the callback to Nibelheim #This is Cloud and Tifa under a night sky sharing intimacies #There's a lot of Tifa's personal motivation and character arc within this #it's multi faceted that's why I love it

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2ndblogg · 4 years

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Hey! Just read your hot take on novel!wangxian and I absolutely agree. I'm gonna have to say here that I believe it boils down to the fetishization of homosexual men in a lot of the fandom culture that surrounds mlm shipping, as you said it's a space for a lot of women to experiment with their desires and whatnot, but I think therein lies the breaking points between reading novel!wangxian as a good, healthy relationship vs. reading it as a very flawed and toxic one. As an LGBT person, reading the way the author dealt with their relationship made me extremely uncomfortable, it just really feels like something that is written by someone who is more invested in using her queer characters for satisfying her and her reader's own pleasure than a well-built, strong relationship between two characters. Not to take away from the novel in some other aspects, I believe that novel!wwx is a much better, much more nuanced character than what he is in cql, but when it comes to wangxian, I think the intentions are very different for each of them. To each their own, I guess, but I do find it very troubling that some people in the fandom have a really hard time admitting that novel wangxian is not even remotely healthy.

Absolutely.

And can I just say how glad it makes me to see that not everyone is praising this book for it’s lgbt representation...

But I guess that’s also why I just occasionally feel the need to scream my frustrations into the void or try to make sense of the novel.

And why I try to be understanding and accepting of people’s opinion of the novel and not take it ‘personally’ (in the sense of sitting there thinking “holy shit this is how they view ME, this is what they think of ME” etc).

I was in fandoms back when they were really a place dominated by straight (homophobic) women and realism or lgbt representation wasn’t on anyone’s mind (and the occasional dude butting in to say that’s not how sex works or bottoming is experienced was ignored or told to get out). I experienced this change to fandoms being more of a lgbt space, of people becoming aware that media can shape your views of groups of people, of people becoming aware of their fetishizing of fictional gays vs. their prejudice against real life lgbt people etc.

And tbh MXTX just writes like one of those, she writes wangxian like everyone wrote their gay relationships around 2005 and earlier; clear power imbalance, clear roles and attributes that are divided into ‘manly’ and ‘feminine’, certain physical attributes (like the female self insert character aka the bottom being pretty and slight and weaker and shorter), men/the penetrating partner can’t really be raped so anything the woman/bottom tries isn’t really ‘bad’, the male love interest is forceful and self centered but ONLY because he’s so in love and since he’s emotionally stunted he has to express that through sex, men/tops NEED sex and it’s rude/mean to deny them that, the girl/bottom isn’t THAT horny or in charge of their own sexuality but wants to please their partner and what they really get out of it is the emotional aspect, decisions need to be made for them because the dude/top just knows better, the girl/bottom is childish and flirty and the guy/top suffers through it until he finally snaps and shows the girl/bottom who'sboss etc etc. (honestly homophobia and misogyny is so tightly knit in this kind of fiction, if it wasn’t so frustrating it would be very interesting).

Tbh I disagree with novel!wwx being more nuanced (despite a lot of ppl whose opinions I really respect also feeling this way), because I simply cannot seperate him from the wangxian relationship. All I see are tropes and stereotypes applied to make him ‘work’ in the context of the wangxian relationship instead of an actual personality...

To me, in CQL WWX is clearly the main character and you love his interactions with LWJ and want more of them and value them, wheras in the novel most of the time WWX plays second fiddle even when a scene should technically be about him and LWJ’s presence is incredibly suffocating, because he’s always being controlling or at the very least influencing WWX.

I also don’t feel like WWX has much of a character arc/growth. We’re essentially told he had one but the only thing that really actually changes is him hating himself a bit more and letting LWJ smash..., and I guess: he’s less independent than ever, he’s more isolated that ever...

I’ve called novel!wangxian a relationship between an abuser and his victim, because you can find evidence of that in the text. Not because I think the author wanted to portray an unhealthy gay relationship. Like you said, she was fetishizing and wrote for a similar crowd. But to me that ‘realization’ helped...I still don’t see how people can call it a masterpiece but I can at least understand hyping something you like up...

And like, badly written gay relationship or not; gay/straight,man/women, I see how people can find it hot. Exploring your sexuality through fictional characters isn’t necessarily a strictly straight girl phenomena. I probably have read fic that was exactly like this, I can’t judge anyone for it. But no one prints out the last PWP they read and goes, “this is ideal lgbt representation and nothing will ever be this good, the fact that it includes rape makes it so realistic” like????

(Is that part or an effect of the woke and purety culture? you can’t say ‘i like this book but it has flaws’ or ‘i’ve enjoyed this but it’s not up the feminism or lgbt acceptance that i preach/live’ so you have to pretend it’s flawless?)

And like, I do think novel!wangxian is a nightmare when it comes to lgbt representation and I do believe this is largely due to a cishet woman writing about gay men and fetishizing them (the fact that a lot of peoples arguments why novel!wangxian ‘is better’ boils down to ‘there’s kissing and sex’ is also pretty telling). And I am frightend and worried by some peoples response to it.

But is it really fair to see it as just that? It’s a problem sure, but that same thing happens in straight media (which I am admittedly not well versed in). Stephanie Meyer didn’t set out to write Edward Cullen to be a creep and non of the teenage girls that went crazy over him viewed it as such...Reylo fans (aside from some of them proclaiming Finn to be the real villain and saying it’s racist and misogynistic to not find Kylo Ren hot) found a way to view him threatening her as romantic and sexy, Loki fans that didn’t ship him with Thor usually fell into the camp of “he would be a perfect boyfriend” or “what if this OFC was his slave and he raped her everyday <3″... like ignoring/glorifying/romanticizing behaviours or exploring what kinks you might have through the safety of fictional characters and fictional settings isn’t JUST happening when it comes to ‘the gays’...

And not just specifically in fandom spaces either, a lot of ‘romantic’ movies include inappropriate touching, the boy/guy knowing better than the girl what she wants etc. And I absolutely do believe that that’s something that normalized these things for a lot of young girls and guys (I don’t want to get into this too much, I’ve really seen a change in the past few years, but before that it was pretty common for young boys to believe they need to keep pursuing and pressuring a girl that has said no, girls truly thought boys could die of blue balls, girls thought it was their duty as good girlfriends to let their boyfriends fuck them even when they weren’t in the mood, that they couldn’t talk about what they want in bed or what they don’t find enjoyable because ‘sex is for boys and girls get a relationship in exchange’ etc.).

And in much the same way movies have only relatively recently begun being called out for that, it’s also still pretty recently that they’re being called out for having their one queer coded character be a pedophile and a murder or whatever...Like, society as a whole becoming aware of these issues.

But do authors that publish their work with a specific target audience in mind have a responsibility to think about the effect it might have on them? (And I can already hear loud screams of ‘no way, it’s not your fault if your audience isn’t smart enough to understand that this bad thing is bad’, but I actually do believe in a way they do. That doesn’t mean you can’t or shouldn’t write whatever you want, just maybe take a look at HOW you bring your point across. (We do KNOW people are influenced by what propaganda they’re consistantly fed. I mean, you wouldn’t write a pro-drugs childrens book...) )

What if the author isn’t aware of their bias and prejudices? Or their target audience isn’t their actual audience?

And do we, society and media, judge female and male authors differently when it comes to romance and sex in fiction? (The answer is yes btw) But also, where do we draw the line at calling something ‘badly written’ and calling it toxic? Can it be both? As I’ve said before, a lot of people claim that only the physical intimacy scenes of novel!wangxian are bad, because they’re badly written and OOC, some say the book as amazingly written and only the wangxian relationship is bad because the author doesn’t know how to write gay men. In my ‘hot take’ I essentially said that’s not necessarily bad writing so much as it’s simply an (okay, unintentional) toxic relationship. And would this relationship still come across as toxic (or badly written, whichever you want) if we didn’t know the author to be a cishet woman? Or if a gay man had written it? (my personal, eloquent answer for this is: yes, but differently.)

Which was really all just a rambly way to get to my point of: it’s not just fetishizing of gay men, it’s also the homophobia and self-inserting in a safe situation.

You can literally replace WWX in the novel with a female character and it wouldn’t change a thing. The author takes such an effort into building up this power imbalance in every aspect of their life that if WWX were a heroine nothing would change in this (sexist/ancient society) setting.

(And clearly this is something that appeals to people if you look at the amount of female!WWX fics...)

Not even the sex scenes. There are maybe two allusions in all of them combined that WWX might also have a dick but like, you can’t be sure and it sure as hell doesn’t need stimulation.

(and again, that could be written as a kink...but it’s just not.)

CQL is a gay love story. MDZS at it’s core is none of that.

But I also very much agree with your ‘to each their own’, like here I am criticizing and trying to find explanations and whatever, but at the end of the day it doesn’t matter why someone might like (or write) a book like this, I vastly prefer CQL!wangxian but people have their own reasons for not doing so.

The ‘problem’ really only lies in, as you said, people not being able to accept that it’s not a healthy relationship. Or claiming it to be perfect lgbt rep.

And because my brain can’t shut up today:

I also can’t stop thinking that the way some people ‘glorify’ the book as due to their age and ‘inexperience’.

When I was a pretty young kid and got into fanfiction, there was nothing but completely OOC!whump to be found in the first two fandoms I was in. And I loved it. It was YEARS later that I thought I might like to read something with the characters being...in character. What I’m trying to say, in different stages and phases of your life you might enjoy different things, for different reasons...and obviously, in that moment, you won’t think about ‘what appeals to me here/should this appeal to me/etc’.

I don’t mean inexperience as ‘sexual inexperience’ here, though of course that could be part of it, but also like, inexperience with this genre (is this the first book like this you read, or did you just read 50 in a row that all had the same unhealthy vibes?), with lgbt people and issues (do you know any lgbt people or is your only image of them either the cute boy you can’t have and don’t want to see with another girl or grown men in full kink gear in front of children during CSD? and also: do you think ‘i like this’ and that’s the end of it or do you notice how many people idolize this objectively unhealthy relationship and won’t allow critique on it...)

I...just wanted to say thanks really.

I just can’t stop rambling apparently and I know I mostly just repeated what you said or what I already said but in longer... I just really do feel very strongly about novel!wangxian and the perception of them and have actually at times felt very personally...worried/affected, by people’s acceptance and love of them and I just... have to try and make sense of it...

#i'll be honest rambling like this is very therapeutic and I'm glad some of you read the last one and send asks and agreed #and it's why i'll (try to) put this in the tags too...i like discussions but seeing ppl NOT going 'it's true love/perfect rep' love that #mdzs #mdzs meta #mxtx critical #i guess

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