#how people can prefer the popular fanon tim | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

autisticcassandracain · 3 years

Text

I have many thoughts on the weird phenomena in the DC fandom and the Batfam fandom specifically where probably the majority of people just straight up. haven’t interacted with the source material. and almost all of those thoughts can be summarized as ‘lmao that’s weird and mildly concerning’.

and because I’m annoying I will list them all here right now <3

1. To preface this post, I mean, obviously, comics are inaccessible as all hell, both in the disability kind of way and the ‘you need to understand the concept of hypertime to fully comprehend the DC timeline’ kind of way. Because of this, even if you don’t have a disability that prevents you from reading comics, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to look at the amount of comics you need to read to have even a base understanding of a character and go ‘no thanks <3′ and just enjoy fanart and fanfic in a vacuum. Ultimately, this is fandom, this is supposed to be fun, it doesn’t really matter.

2. That said, it’s VERY weird to me that the majority of this fandom just straight up hasn’t interacted with the source material, and moreover, that it’s considered rude to tell people that they should do so. It’s especially weird considering the amount of fanon-only fans I’ve seen who straight up have a superiority complex over canon. The idea that it’s gatekeeping to tell fans of something to actually interact with canon is just. so weird, and a fundamental misunderstanding of what ‘gatekeeping’ actually entails.

3. But honestly I’m less interested in discussing the ways in which canon and fanon fans should interact with each other (personally, I think it would be helpful to create separate tags of some kind, but that’d require quite a big overhaul of the current fandom state) than in figuring out how this actually happened in the first place. On the one hand, it’s obvious; long-running superhero comics the way DC writes them have made themselves so thoroughly inaccessible that most people are simply too daunted to even try. Most media has a cohesive beginning and end (or at least, a planned end somewhere). Comics just... don’t.

But I do think it says something that, even among people who are clearly interested in the characters (since they have, you know, entire blogs about them), the effort to get into comics just seems to be too much to even bother. This really doesn’t bode well for the future of DC Comics. Obviously, I am no expert on anything at all ever, but I’d personally be surprised if DC survives beyond the few decades, at least in its current form/without a big overhaul.

4. But on the other hand, I don’t think the confusing state of DC Comics is the only thing to blame here. Fandom has a well-known problem with reducing any character down to archetypes to more easily ship and write fic/make content with. This problem is particularly prominent in fanfic, which, if you read enough of it, you’ll eventually start seeing not just the same tropes and trends, but essentially the same fics over and over again. And not just within the same fandom; everywhere, or every large fandom, at least.

Fanon Batfam is entirely built on a bunch of those tropes; insecure/depressed sadboy Tim, team mom with optional hidden trauma/emotional problems Dick, bad boy with a heart of gold + sadboy combo Jason, abused sadboy Damian/angry easily-villified-for-fic-reasons monster Damian, good dad Bruce for found family fic and bad dad Bruce for angst fic, etc. This all culminates in a found family dynamic that’s generic and malleable to whatever fic the writer wants to write.

(This isn’t getting into the ship fic, which I avoid like the plague because the vast majority of it is incest, but I’d bet real actual money that the tropes in those fics fall under what is often preferred by the Migratory Slash Fandom.)

By having a decent excuse not to get into canon (the inaccessibility of comics) and a, by now, well-established fanon fandom, many fans feel free to use the batfam fandom as essentially an excuse to write whatever fic with reduced archetypes and tropes they personally feel the itch to write, without having to bother with even consuming a canon. This is compounded by the fact that canon itself is often contradictory and frankly bad, meaning that whatever interpretation of a character you want/need to go for your fic is at least theoretically backed up by canon (for example, you can just as easily cast Bruce as an abusive shithole dad who his kids need to get away from as a loving father figure who cares deeply for his children), which you can always use as a defense if people question your characterization.

5. This focus on fandom trends and tropes over actual creativity or care for the characters is also visible in the way bigotry manifests in this fandom; namely, in literally the exact way you’d expect. The female characters and characters of colour are shuffled to the side, non-existent, vilified, and/or reduced to harmful stereotypes.

Barbara is probably the one I saw the most often in fanfic, but usually just as ‘Dick’s girlfriend’, and even then, she was often vilified for Dick angst (especially in fics about examining Dick’s trauma from his canon sexual assault; Kori also often gets the short end of the stick in those). After that, probably Stephanie, who fanon fans don’t really seem to know what to do with, so she’s basically just there as comic relief waffle girl, most of the time, though sometimes she can be used to either further Tim angst or further vilify Tim, whatever the fic calls for. Cass has gotten included more in batfam fics as of late, likely in response to critiques of fandom racism for leaving her out, but again, it’s clear people don’t actually know what to do with her. She’s often reduced to a racist stereotype of a quite, stoic therapist for whatever guy du jour needs it. That, or she’s in Hong Kong and just not there. Duke especially gets left in the dust in fandom, usually just being non-existent, but when he’s there, he’s almost always nothing more than the straight man for the actual fun characters to play off of. Talia probably has it the worst, though, and almost universally gets vilified by fanon stans in order to write sadboy Damian.

All of this is extremely predictable behaviour and falls entirely in line with general fandom misogyny and racism; ignoring or vilifying women and characters of colour, or using them as very minor characters at best. The only two characters of colour who aren’t regularly left out of fic are Dick and Damian, who are both also conveniently the two characters most often drawn and written in a whitewashed manner. In addition, there’s a real trend of demonizing Damian in fanon fics where he isn’t written as an abused sadboy, which I’d argue is in no small part due to fandom racism, considering Damian’s behaviour is in no way as bad as Jason’s, who doesn’t get anywhere close to the same demonization and gets woobiefied instead. I also find it convenient that Damian is probably the batboy who receives the most vilification in fic, when he’s the most obviously non-white of the batboys they’re willing to acknowledge.

Fandom often cries for more diversity in canon, only to ignore the diversity already there and focus on the same generic white guys. The batfam fandom is a brilliant example of this.

Which is not to say that fandom racism and misogyny isn’t present in the canon parts of the fandom (and canon itself); it absolutely 100% is. But I’ve found that canon fans are also more likely to like and care about at least one of the characters I’ve listed as ignored/vilified, and are willing to create and consume content for them, whereas fanon fans... aren’t, really. I’ve never seen a fan of fanon Cass the way I’ve seen fans of fanon Dick, for example. Obviously, this could just be by coincidence, or I’ve just surrounded myself with people like that, but it’s been a trend I noticed. Racism and misogyny is present in every part of this fandom and should be addressed as such, but I feel like it manifests the most blatantly in the fanon parts of this fandom.

(I’d also recommend the articles Migratory Slash Fandom’s Focus and Beige Blank Slates, which expand more on the type of fandom racism I think is especially prominent in the batfam fandom, as well as literally every article in the What Fandom Racism Looks Like series.)

6. All this leads me to conclude that the majority of fanon fans don’t actually like the characters all that much; they’re convenient excuses for them to participate in fandom. Which I also think is, in no small part, a reason why so many of them react so negatively to being told to pick up a comic; they came to this fandom specifically to consume it as a fandom, because they wanted the fandom experience without having to consume a canon.

This is not a phenomena unique to the batfam fandom (again, see the Migratory Slash Fandom), but it does fascinate me. While fandom is often said to be an experience focusing on transformative art, I think it’s also safe to say that, especially as fandom has become more mainstream, an increasing amount of people are looking to it less as a way to engage with their favourite pieces of media, and more as a type of media in and of itself. I think the reasons for this are similar to the reasons mass media entertainment like the MCU are so popular; you gain a lot of enjoyment out of it with very little risk involved.

By consuming the same fics of the same characters (or the same archetypes) over and over again, you are rarely at risk of being challenged or even disappointed. It’s often very clear right from the start whether or not a fic will appeal to you, and if it isn’t, it’s easy to just look for another one. It requires less emotional investment than most other types of media, even ‘popcorn media’ like the MCU - or, yes, DC Comics. It’s safe, it’s enjoyable, it’s comforting, like McDonalds, but just like McDonalds, it’s ultimately bland and unsubstantial.

7, TL;DR. Ultimately, I don’t think it’s like, wrong to enjoy the fanon version of the batfam without wanting to engage with canon, and I certainly don’t think it’s okay to harrass people over it. But I do think it’s in large part based on a desire to interact with fandom rather than other pieces of media because people are scared of being let down by those pieces of media (or worse, just uninterested in actually thinking), which is mildly concerning.

#long post #my posts #infodumping #btw i say this as someone who also has trouble consuming much more than popcorn media/fanfic due to emotional exhaustion #but it's not a healthy habit and it's something people can and should try to break out of #also obviously this isn't about EVERY fanon fan specifically so if this doesn't apply to you specifically great then move on

42 notes · View notes

thattimdrakeguy · 3 years

Text

Weirdly enough Red Robin is the series I’d be most scared to review, because for obvious reasons I imagine more than any other character it’s the Tim fan base (I won’t say fandom, because I feel like that gives a different connotation nowadays. and it’s a bunch of chill, un-interactive but very passionate, chaps) that follow me.

And I’d just get sooo many people giving me nit-picks, and telling me stuff I already know.

Cause I can say anything against Teen Titans 2003, New 52, Rebirth, and Wonder Comics stuff cause that’s the generally agreed upon stuff that you can complain against for Tim. Cause like, to not play dumb to it, this whole Bat-Family fandom acts like there’s freaking laws to abide by if you don’t want a bunch of batty (not a pun, not even saying not a pun in sarcasm lol) fans and stans down your neck. Normally involving certain characterizations or comics that, honestly, aren’t even usually the more accurate ones, but the contradicting ones that don’t make a lick of sense, and that’s not even talking about the straight up fanon ones.

Not to say I wouldn’t get why it’s the Red Robin series that’d get people to give me crap out of all the Tim stuff, because I do. It’s a lot of peoples entry to Tim, and it’s pretty heavy implications of suicidal ideation, and more so obvious mental breakdown journey across continents means a lot to people. I can get why, and if it wasn’t those characters in it, I’d think it was great too.

Also I know for a fact people would act like I’m just bias for 90s Tim, and point out Timmy’s in a teddy bear hoodie in my header. Cause it’s the most weakest defense someone could possibly make cause they’re lacking an actual point. Like they know everything a fucking ‘bout me, when they don’t, I’m just allowed to think my own stuff, and I’m allowed my dang comfort art, so blah blah blah. I’ve proved myself enough. I don’t need some random dismissive guys random approval or not, but man can it be annoying when someone thinks they’re smart about it.

Like basically put, it would be very exhausting to go through the many different series and years of comic book content to explain why I think the way I do, when all the other person has to say is “I like this series a lot, and it means a lot to me, it’s story about depression, and plus it’s Tim being at the button of his sanity so-- And I think this person is stuck on 90s Tim” cause like I freaking get it, and acting like cause I prefer a different Tim comic means my opinion isn’t valid, is the most childish thing ya can really do. Like I love 90s Tim the most for a reason, and I started reading Tim as Red Robin first, ya ninny.

But to just be honest, it is an incredibly flawed series that has overall, in the long game, soiled the character of Tim Drake, and directly influenced the New 52 and beyond depiction of him. Not to give Lobdell an excuse, I just find it really odd that people getting praising it as the peak of Tim content when it’s even caused some really freaking toxic fandom beliefs.

When some of the most important scenes in the series are so botched that it has genuinely made people despise other characters when I don’t even think they were portrayed well for that to make sense. The messy inconsistent writing as it went between two different writers causing some absolutely terrible characterization for Tim that isn’t even always consistent within the series itself because FabNic is just awful, and how forgettable most stuff after the first story is.

That first story I can understand the love for it. But people treating the whole series as a whole like it’s a great journey of long-term story development just feels like a real bad describer for it. Because to me by the end of it’s run it caused Tim to be put in the terrible spot that he’s only now escaping from little under a decade later. As well as only really starting cause people in the company didn’t like Tim and the characters around them as much as you’d hope.

In total, I honestly feel like if it wasn’t released during a time were the common tastes were very edgy and emo-esque, as well as around the time the online fandom spaces were only really then being formed in a way that was practical for casual interaction and discussion, and being the only series titled “Red Robin” therefore people seem to think it’s Tim’s variation of “Nightwing”, when it’s honestly not, it wouldn’t be a series that highly regarded.

I’m not saying the whole thing is a pile of shit, cause it’s also frankly not. There’s some powerful stuff in there, and some moments that really do hit super hard in ways that don’t feel superficial. Cause another thing people don’t seem to understand that when I say his characterization isn’t good in it, does not equal me saying “He is not the same exact character he was 15 years before the series came out”, it legitimately just means I feel they took the character to places that felt more forced than genuine, or just had him stuff that goes against what he’d do for the sake of just being edgy as if it’s deep, even during his circumstances and it created people having a false understanding of who Tim is at his heart, that made it incredibly difficult for Tim to get a good story for basically a freaking decade.

It’s a series I want to review because I have genuine things to say about it, but when ever I do say anything about it I feel like I see several sub-posts that are almost undeniably about me (hasn’t happened for a while cause I don’t really bother talking about stuff I don’t like anymore, cause life's hard enough, and I’ve seen the worst end of a lot of people from it) trying to downplay me, because they got defensive about it, rather than actually trying to process what I meant by things instead of just assuming it cause it’s touchy for them.

Like I’ve openly shit on Damian’s most popular series’, and accepted fandom malarkey, because I legitimately think they’re overhyped as could be, not that great, and only have the popularity they do through bandwagoning and going along with things. And I did that while knowing how defensive the Damian fandom is, and how quick they are to just leak out nasty assumptions or outright suicide bait you (yes I remember someone tried to defend me by suicide baiting someone else, but fuck them too, I never defended them or asked them to. idgaf which fandom does it. i’m clearly not on anyone's team. this isn’t a fucking sports game).

I’ve even straight up shit on pretty much every single Jason story except Under the Red Hood, while defending some Robin Jason stories, and I haven’t even got crap on me for that, which is honestly strange. Surprisingly just got told “Ya know what. Fair point. I can accept that. I don’t agree, but I can accept it.”. Which given what I have been shown of the Jason fandom I expected much worse, but they’ve honestly been really chill with me. Me and the Jason fandom has been actually some of the most pleasant interactions I’ve had outside my own bubble.

The majority of Steph’s existence as a character I’ve criticized and gotten crap on it, but honestly I found the response of countless anons going “YEAH MAN I AGREE WITH YOU” and going way harder on her than I ever did to be pretty dang annoying, and even more annoying cause people kept thinking I said stuff I freaking didn’t out of it. So every now and again people will just straight up lie about me to my face. Like you try to talk to someone that’s been preparing to talk to you by fighting an imaginary version of yourself. It’s pretty difficult if I had to be honest. Talking ‘bout bias’s like I didn’t write TimSteph fan fictions before I realized they weren’t that great and didn’t work, while realizing that I honestly didn’t think Tim was into girls in-general.

But, to get back on topic, with the Tim fandom it’s less like, open faced attempts to make you feel like a garbage human being, and more just straight up rudely dismissive as quite often the ones I’ve seen do it try to portray themselves as some calm knowledgeable unbias source of Tim knowledge.

And there’s a different sensation of annoyance at that.

Like what is the point of trying to pretend to be some source of knowledge and for a few comradery, while also being a dismissive person that first has to make others seem lesser.

And there’s some that I’ve seen do it that I don’t even think are dicks honestly, and have no problem with it, cause it’s just so innocently “I just really like the series and still think it’s good”. That I’d be confused why people would think I have a vendetta against everyone else. I’ve never been like, straight up offended more than once over the specific topic of Red Robin. But it is a thing that makes me like “I’ll get so many people giving me crap over having a different opinion for this won’t I”. And get some people trying to validate just being a bit of a fucker to me for no good reason.

So like, may or may not write a Red Robin review, but I might not cause despite quite a few people in the Tim fandom being quite chill about it, there’s quite a lot of people that are low-key toxic about it, and a lot of bad fandom things came out of it as well.

23 notes · View notes

bigskydreaming · 4 years

Text

Tbh, I love when people remember that Jason was in awe of Superman too, and Uncle Clark was still plenty partial to him as well, it wasn’t just Dick that Clark had an avuncular relationship with.

But that last reblog also got me thinking about another popular fanon I roll my eyes at, because it too seems to only exist to position fans against Dick on Jason’s behalf....

The idea that all of Dick’s friends hated and resented Jason for not being him, and took it out on him on Dick’s behalf.....

Nope. 100% nuh-uh, not a thing, do not pass Go, do not collect $200...completely made up and did not happen.

Let’s go to the tape:

Jason teamed up with the Titans a grand total of two times, both post-Crisis but in that brief window before Jason’s retconned origin, while he was still using his pre-Crisis origin, both within the span of a few issues of each other, and both still in continuity by the time Jason returned as the Red Hood since when he fought Tim in Titans Tower he remarked upon having been a Titan once too, even if briefly, and those two stories are the only two stories that exist which he could have been referring to....

And in neither of them do the Titans resent Jason or antagonize him on Dick’s behalf.

In fact, Jason is shown thinking of asking Batman if he can join the Titans full time, because “they like me here”...

So where does the idea that they resented him for not being Dick, and were douchebags to him on Dick’s behalf come from?

Well the thing is, it doesn’t come completely from nowhere, which is almost worse....because it DOES build on stuff that actually happens....it just does so in such a way as it is literally impossible to take that interpretation of what actually happens, unless you’re LOOKING for a way for it to make Dick look bad, and lead others who aren’t familiar with the comics to dislike him as a result.

For instance, one (and only one) of the Titans IS an asshole to Jason throughout their shared story....

But uh....that Titan is Hawk, who is notably and distinctly an asshole to EVERYONE. Its not remotely on Dick’s behalf, Hank and Dick hardly ever even liked each other and were definitely not ever close friends, and there’s not a single person in that story that Hawk doesn’t antagonize at some point. It had absolutely ZERO to do with Jason not being Dick and Hawk giving him shit because of it.

And as for the ‘resented Jason for not being Dick’ specifically thing, once again, taken TOTALLY out of context....that stems from this part of the story, where Donna, feeling overwhelmed by the pressures of leadership and the stressors of things happening in her own life, says she’s not cut out to be the leader and tries to pass it off to Jason, who understandably is like wait what???

And it is abundantly clear in this and the pages that follow that Donna IS defaulting to viewing Jason the way she does Dick and seeing him as someone she can pass leadership off on because she’s looking at him and simply seeing ROBIN....but this is not REMOTELY due to her resenting Jason for not being Dick or thinking he’s not good enough to take his place, but rather the complete opposite. Jason’s so competent at what he does and is gelling with most of the team so seamlessly that Donna forgets for a bit that he’s not actually Dick, and his presence takes her back to when they were all younger and Dick was still Robin, and things were ‘easier’ in her mind.

But once again, fanon gets it twisted, because rather than this creating problems for Jason and becoming a secret source of insecurity and resentment for him, mostly aimed at Dick and Jason feeling like he’s in his shadow and can’t live up to his example....Jason, who is not really an insecure person by nature (though he does have insecurities - there is a difference though)....like, Jason doesn’t just passively let this happen and let it fester. He calls her out on it, states his case plainly and with certainty, and they move past the issue almost as soon as it arises.

Once again, see the issue with the common ‘interpretation’ of this part of Jason’s (and by way of extension, also Dick’s) history?

My now standard disclaimer, its not about bowing down to Official Canon, as the only true authority or way of depicting things.....its about the fact that sometimes fanon exists a certain way BECAUSE people hate or dislike various characters and so always find a way to spin things to make them look bad......but THEN....as a result....sometimes the whole REASON people who come along later and internalize this fanon hate or dislike of various characters.....is because of the skewed interpretation offered up and perpetuated by people INVESTED in making characters they disliked look bad, or be the cause of issues or hardships for characters other people might prefer.

But yeah. The Titans did not hate, resent, ostracize, or treat Jason badly because he wasn’t Dick Grayson. The only one Jason EVER had grievances against was Hawk, and NOBODY consistently got along with Hawk other than his brother, Dove.

Flat out, one hundred percent warped and untrue. Dick was not the cause of additional issues for Jason when it came to the Titans.

And for the record, this is Jason’s final scene in the other story in which he teams up with the Titans....the one where they all rescue Dick and Raven from the Church of Blood. Once again, notice the complete lack of resentment, disdain, cold-shoulders or anything else thrown Jason’s way by the other Titans....as well as the total lack of antagonism between Dick and Jason or any hint of resentment or bitterness from Dick towards Jason, and rather, the easy familiarity between them. Again, this is post-Crisis but before Jason’s retcon as being a street kid rather than another acrobat like Dick.....but that retcon when it did come along was crafted in such a way as to allow this and most of Jason’s other stories to still exist between when Bruce took him in after their encounter in Crime Alley, and when Jason died in ADITF, and thus this like the previous story is still firmly in continuity and was referenced as such at later points in the timeline.

And omg you guys, look how much Dick and Jason hate each other here:

In conclusion, nobody would be harping on about the fanon that makes Dick look like The Reason Jason’s Life Is Terrible And He Can Never Have Nice Things.....if fanon didn’t so often exist purely to GIVE people a reason to look at Dick as The Reason Jason’s Life Is Terrible And He Can Never Have Nice Things.

97 notes · View notes

karliahs · 3 years

Note

“I’ll get the jackets,” Tim says, and hopes it’s something, one more little signal for the thing he doesn’t know how to put into words anymore. If Tim is no longer a thing of easy pleasures, he hopes he can become a creature of effort - of intentional, worked-for warmth.

Jon squeezes in return before taking his hand back, his grip delicate and warm. Tim rifles through a wardrobe for two soft hoodies, paying little mind to who they belonged to - Jon was a known clothing thief who gained power from appropriating Tim and Martin’s jackets.

By the time he’s shrugged one on and headed out into the living room, Jon is standing by the open backdoor, looking out over the heathers and hillside beyond. He looks dazed, more than anything, finding all that space stretching out in front of him, and Tim can’t tell if it’s loss or gratitude holding him there. A surge of tenderness goes through him at the sight, and Tim almost laughs at himself as he pads over to join Jon. You're going soft, Stoker, he thinks. After all that, you're going soft.

Once again, Tim sees an echo of a place they haven't quite reached: sees himself tugging the jacket around Jon's shoulders like a blanket. Instead, he hands it over and leads Jon outside to the rickety chairs. It's not hesitance holding him back exactly, and certainly not a lack of desire. It's more like…care. Care he never would have needed before.

He drags his own chair a little closer to Jon's before he sits down, knowing Jon sees him do it, letting him note and process this intentional drawing closer. Tim used to flirt lightning-fast and joyous, instinctual, safe in the knowledge that he could fall a little in love with half the people he met, so what did rejection or awkwardness matter, really? But Jon takes things slowly these days, and Tim is relearning love as a back and forth, as goodbyes and welcomes. He is luxuriating in having time to wait and see what will come of the two of them. The three of them.

"Martin shouldn't be long," Tim says into the silence.

"It's Saturday," Jon replies, sounding weary but fond. "He always dawdles at the markets."

"I could text him," Tim offers. "Chivy him along a bit."

Jon shakes his head. "You're…it's fine, Tim. I…I need you, too. Both of you." His voice is low and his eyes are fixed on the horizon.

from nothing sweeter than local honey

!!!! thank you for asking!! alright here we go:

i will try not to make this self-deprecating because that's no fun for anyone, but this is not one of my most-edited fics so my brain is already yelling SHOW DON'T TELL at me. the last thing i will say on this matter!

so much of this fic was just me thinking about what it would be like if tim got to have an after. any after. what would a good life for him look like that also acknowledges he's been fundamentally changed by his experiences - and knows that himself too, because tim's smart and self-aware

love concrete gestures in place of things you don't know how to say. 'i want you to be warm, i'll help take care of you, we're a team so i will take this if you take that'

'creature of effort' is a little bit harking back to one of my fave quotes by leslie jamison: 'I believe in intention and I believe in work. I believe in waking up in the middle of the night and packing our bags and leaving our worst selves for our better ones.'

i usually try to sort of apply critical thinking before simply adopting popular fanon into my own work but jon sims: clothing thief is GOOD and it can stay

also the small intimacies of living side by side, intermingled clothes, no longer feeling a need to insist on what exactly is mine or yours

i like little scaps of realism among my h/c to make the comfort even juicier, and so one of the things i nitpick myself on is not having every character just look at the other person and immediately know everything that's going on in their head - which happens partly because describing expressions is hard! so that's why tim can't 100% tell what jon is feeling in this moment

i think jon is actually thinking something like: wide open exposed space in front of me, is that safe? footsteps approaching from behind, even though i know who they belong to, is that safe? do i make myself less safe, provoking those around me, by not totally believing in this safety? do i deserve safety if i can't feel its presence? am i wasting this maybe-safe time by worrying about whether or not i deserve it?

having lots of space in front of them is obvs Metaphorical. they have a future now and that's terrifying and good. what do you do when you're alive and you never expected to be. can we endure it, the rain finally stopped?

tim's thoughts there slip into a more playful cadence - he's making jokes, even just to himself - to reinforce that that hope is still there.

again in terms of pockets of realism...a lot of times in romance things just Happen, people are just drawn in by the tide of it and find themselves doing perfect romantic things. and that's nice!! but there is something more real and kind of more romantic to me about making choices, building on small gestures, going slow because you care so much about this. you leave and then you come back, and you get them their jacket, and you hope it all says: look, i'm here, i'm trying, let's try

i always really appreciate characters who seem to have a genuine love of people - gregarious, high-charisma people where it stems from loving people in general

in my mind these little concrete offerings show how well tim knows jon, deep down. i would imagine jon as someone who doesn't always pick up on nuanced emotions exclusively communicated through words and prefers when there are actions to back them up, partly because that's the way he communicates himself. 'tim says he forgives me' is a lot harder to hold onto than 'tim brought my favourite berries back from tesco, tim brought me a jacket, tim could have sat further away but is choosing to be close'

"Martin shouldn't be long," Tim says into the silence.

"It's Saturday," Jon replies, sounding weary but fond. "He always dawdles at the markets."

"I could text him," Tim offers. "Chivy him along a bit."

Jon shakes his head. "You're…it's fine, Tim. I…I need you, too. Both of you." His voice is low and his eyes are fixed on the horizon.

lil realism: there are awkward silences sometimes

i don't know how to explain it but it feels so right to me that jon would use the word dawdle. and that tim would say chivy. they're dorks your honour

sorry martin is sir-not-appearing-in-this-fic, in my defence i do not like to write martin because i am not good at it. he's shopping. let him shop

love that jon here is trying to communicate the fact that he cares about them and also has some needs, sometimes. he's trying! he's had time and space in which to get to a place where he can try!

'eyes fixed on the horizon' it's the future and they have one. this whole fic is me going there's a future and they're going to be in it together, that is so simple and yet so huge that you'd need forever to get your head around it

#asks #tysm for asking!!#long post #tma /#jontim

5 notes · View notes

mycroftrh · 4 years

Text

Pro tip for people new to comics fandom! You’ll see a lot of posts purporting to describe “fanon [character]” vs “canon [character]”. In almost all cases, this actually means:

“Fanon character”: how the character is portrayed in the run or adaptation that is most well-known, or most recent, or resonated with the fandom the most.

“Canon character”: how the character is portrayed in the run or adaptation that the writer of the post likes the most, or has read most recently, or was most popular when the OP entered the fandom.

For example, posts comparing “fanon Tim Drake” to “canon Tim Drake”. 9 times out of 10, the description given for “fanon Tim” very accurately describes Tim as he was - canonically - portrayed in Red Robin (2009). “Canon Tim” is somewhat more variable but generally either describes Tim from ‘90s Young Justice comics or, if the writer of the post has recently gone back to read them, from his first comics as Robin in 1989.

The lovely thing about comics is that any major comics character has been written in canon by dozens or even hundreds of people. Each one of those writers had their own “canon version” of the character. And that means that there are dozens of canon versions of all of these characters, none of which is necessarily more canon than any other.

It is your great privilege, as a comics fan, to decide which “canon version” most resonates with you. Maybe this character only appeals to you as he was written in one mini-series from 1974. Maybe for this other character you like the origin story from Rebirth but the personality from her solo in the early 2000s but also you liked when her most important relationship was with a side character who hasn’t appeared since 1960. That’s all chill, and it is just as fair a canon as any other fan’s canon! That’s the way the canon creators are doing it, too!

It’s great to learn about other portrayals of a character you like, because they can add depth, they can show particular aspects you may want to consider or incorporate, and you might even find you prefer a totally different portrayal than the one you encountered first. But if anyone tries to tell you the way you interpret a long-running comics character is wrong - tell them from me that if Frank Miller’s Batman can be canon then yours sure as heck can be too.

#pls note that there is a distinction between #’canon’ and ‘main continuity’ and ‘current continuity’#things can be canon but not in main continuity #eg there is a canon trans Black Canary #but dinah’s not trans in the main continuity #and things can be main continuity but not current continuity #eg events that happened in what was the primary continuity before a reboot #dc #marvel #mine

5 notes · View notes

bat-lings · 5 years

Note

Why does Dick often get portrayed somewhat OOC in the fandom? Canon!Dick, whilst definitely lighthearted and impressively well-adjusted in comparison to the rest of the batfam, can still be serious at times and isn't without his 'dark side' every once in a while. But the fandom seems to ignore this and flanderize his character in some ways (e.g. making him this gooey, unrealistically nice, constantly happy, effeminate ball of cuddles & sun) Why do you think he is often flanderized in this way?

Just one more fanon legend treated as Canon Fact among others, Anon!

Tim being addicted to coffee or Dick to cereals? Nope. Tim growing up near the Wayne Manor? Nope, he moved there after he became Robin. Jason being an hyper sexual bad boy? As far as I know, there’s only two people he’s canonically been remotely involved with in preboot one of which I prefer to forget ever happened. Dick being a lesser detective than Tim? Okay that one’s Nicieza’s fault, but no. Cass being anything other that one of the most expressive and kindhearted character I know?

Dick being a ball of sunshine? Oh boy where do I start.

[Outsiders (2003) #1]

Lmao the microwave oven has feelings, Dick.

Actually no stop I almost turned this into a Dick Grayson meta (more like Dick can be a major dick meta) but that’s not exactly your question. Back on subject:

Every comics character suffers from widely spread misconceptions. Obviously the more popular the character, the more exacerbated the phenomenon. Tim too knows an great amount of fancontent that’s out of sync with the canon thing. He gets wummified a lot.

With Dick there’s also something that’s often overlooked. I’ll respectfully rephrase, Anon; it’s not that he can get serious at times, it’s more that he’s systematically serious but acts casual.

The second you forget how seriously he takes his job, how conscientious and skilled a detective he is, it’s easier to get fooled by his friendliness and apparent casualness. Fanon sometimes forget that Dick isn’t just liked by the entire superhero community: he’s respected. He commends some serious authority and is probably one of the best leaders in-universe. He didn’t get there by being nice.

Honestly even saying he’s well-adjusted can be a stretch depending on which period of his life you’re referring.

In fanon’s defense tho, the sheer density of material makes canon particularly inaccessible. It’s extra hard for a new comics fan to distinguish canon-based interpretations from headcanons that have no canon basis. So because a lot of fans simply don’t know what’s canon and what’s not, fanon kinda feeds on itself, and a lot of fancontent has no other basis than… previous fancontent. Some fans don’t even read comics, they’re just here for the fancontent. I don’t blame them ‘cause consuming the necessary amount of canon material to get a decent grasp on canon takes way more than casual engagement.

It’s not a criticism. If someone creates another character only loosely inspired by its canon version because it allows the person to identify better with said character, then good for them. But a lot of people treat those fanon creations like they’re canon which is plain confusing for new fans. Meanwhile older fans witness with various degrees of amusement or frustration some legends getting more and more prominent in the fandom, to the point where said legends are actually treated like “Canon Facts”.

It’s the confusion that can bother me, more than people taking liberties with canon. I enjoy fandom a lot more now that I’ve read enough comics to make the difference tbh. Sometimes fanon characterization has no canon basis, but the writing is still good so it’s greatly enjoyable. Now that I’ve my own construction of the character based on canon elements, I’m not systematically lost in a “wait is that fancontent based on something or is it just the creator’s alternate version?” I feel for new fans still lost in that eternal questioning haha!

Arguably maybe reboot participated in bringing up Dick’s, ah, most simplified and agreeable traits. I’m not that invested in reboot so correct me if I’m wrong, but does reboot!Dick still lose himself to his legendary temper? Does he still demonstrate the worst ofhis baggage & unhealthy coping mechanisms? From the few I’ve read, it looks like they toned him down a great deal to lie it pretty thick with the sweet big brother vibe.

I guess there’s also something endearing in that fluffy, over-the-top big brother figure? Hence its success in fanon.

All of that can explain the disconnect between canon and fanon, but Dick sure isn’t the only victim.

Thanks for the ask!

#nightwing #dick grayson #richard grayson #dc comics #batfam #batman #batfamily #asks #zae chatters #my stuff

594 notes · View notes

shipcestuous · 6 years

Text

More on DC incest ships

Thanks to all of you who chimed in to help give a more complete answer to the anon who asked about DC universe incestuous couples. It sounds like there’s really nothing that’s strictly canon and strictly incest but lots to ship.

@grandoljoe:

Hawk and Dove have some strong undertones. Hawk always protecting Dove, the pacifist. Dove reminding Hawk it’s okay to be tender. They’re one of my faves.

Tara and her brother had some undertones in the comics as well if I remember correctly.

Beast boy and Elasta-girl have a pretty Shippy adopted mother/son relationship. Especially when you see BB talk to Mento,his adopted dad.

Morgaine le Fay and Mordred have a lasting one with undertones.

None of these are canon per say, but they’re about as Shippy as the maximoffs in 616 continuity.

Anon #1:

DC? ROBINS. When 5 stepsibs have donned the same cape to work same highrisk job for their Daddy, it's ship-central ;) Damian (Wayne, bloodson of Bruce/Batman) is the current 'Robin' and pairs with Batman or with previous 'Robins'. Commonly fans ship Damian with his predecessor Tim Drake/Red Robin, who almost dated another 'Robin' Stephanie Brown/Batgirl in canon. The two oldest 'Robins', Dick Grayson/Nightwing & Jason Todd/Red Hood are the eminent ship in fanon, but any combo works tbh.

(DC-cest anon) I forgot to add: people often ship Blackfire & Starfire, the alien princess sisters in Teen Titans (retconpunchdotcom.files.wordpress.com/ 2012/08/sisterfire-love.png) but sadly because they look like Amazonian females that ship is often used as fetish fodder for creepy straight guys. I'd love more respectful fanon and more canon for them. Also for anyone into angsty sad father x son or daughter, look into Slade/Deathstroke & his son Jericho or Trigon & Rachel Roth/Raven.

Anon #2:

Re: DC couples, I don't know of any canon ones that are consentual, however Doctor Thirteen canonly had an erotic seeming dream about his daughter Traci, and Swamp Thing love interest Abby Arcane's evil uncle Anton had sex with her while he was inhabiting the body of someone else (that she was more disposed to having sex with). And of course Superman telling his cousin the only reason they can't be together is that cousin marriage isn't legal on Krypton even tho it totally is on Earth.

Anon #3:

Not big on comics either, but the relationship between Penguin and his mother on Gotham was lifted from a recent iteration of the comics. In the first half of S2 of Gotham (Rise of the Villains: Battle of the Incest Ships), I was rooting for the Cobblepots because unlike the Galavans, they seemed to love each other. A rare instance where I preferred parent/child over siblings.

I debated mentioning Penguin and his mother. Definite vibes there, which we saw at least as much in 4B with Sofia Falcone “wooing” Penguin using his memories of his mother - her recipes and stuff like that.

Anon #4:

Re: DCTV incest, don't forget about canon (married!) stepcest between Barry/Iris in The Flash, and the non-canon but reasonably popular ships between Oliver/Thea (halfcest) and Kara/Alex (stepcest).

Anon #5

Also not canon but I kinda ship Len/Lisa Snart aka Captain Cold/Golden Glider... both in the show (which kinda dropped the ball on them since Legends) and comics they're kind of the one pure thing in each other's lives, the one each knows they can count on completely.

I’m so disappointed that we didn’t get much more Len/Lisa after how good it was on The Flash at first.

Anon #6

For the DCList: It's unhealthy but James Gordon Jr. has an intense fixation on his sister Barbara Gordon. James is quite bluntly-a psychopath. In The Black Mirror he abducts Babs (there's weirdly intimate stabbing involved) and obsesses about how she's the only one to really 'see' him despite how different they are. Their interactions are everywhere in Gail Simone's run on the Nu52Batgirl- culminating in him shooting Bab's husband on their wedding day for taking away 'the only person he loves'.

Wow, I don’t remember ever hearing about this before. Sounds very suggestive. Ngl, I’m kinda into it in a messed up way. (Without knowing anything more than what’s right here.)

Anon #7

In terms of DC, some of my old submissions were DC. Like the Marvels/Shazam family. And the Captain Atom stuff. Iris and Wally in the comics are aunt and nephew and he loves her a lot(it turned out she was his adopted aunt but that was a retcon and I doubt he knew ect). The Impulse and XS stuff. The Impulse and his Mom stuff. The Max Mercury and his daughter stuff. I'm surprised someone mentioned Nightwing and not his relationship with both Bruce and Damian.

Anon #8:

are you into dc comics at all? fox’s gotham has recently given us a dysfunctional closer-than-they-should-be set of twin brothers that i’m all 😍 over

I am going to talk about these two more once I catch up on Gotham. I’m about two episodes behind. I know who you’re talking about but I’ve only seen the first episode when the other twin was introduced and not anything since then.

Anon #9:

Adding to the DC ist. There's a story from the silverage that you can find on cracked. It's easy to make fun of. Basically cat woman has a brother, at this point she'd gotten out of crime and he's trying to pull her in. Batman spends the whole time thinking he's her bf. That's a standard plot. But cracked spent the time pointing out how insane the bro comes off and into catwoman. "six insane batman villains you won't see in movies". The King of Cats.

OMG. The king of cats. That’s hilarious.

#asks #nr #noiv #list #dc universe #grandoljoe #anonymous

7 notes · View notes

vintagegeekculture · 7 years

Text

Dead Fandoms, Part 3

Read Part One of Dead Fandoms here.

Read Part Two of Dead Fandoms here.

Before we continue, I want to add the usual caveat that I actually don’t want to be right about these fandoms being dead. I like enthusiasm and energy and it’s a shame to see it vanish.

Mists of Avalon

Remember that period of time of about 15 years, where absolutely everybody read this book and was obsessed with it? It could not have been bigger, and the fandom was Anne Rice huge, overlapping for several years with USENET and the early World Wide Web…but it’s since petered out.

Mists of Avalon’s popularity may be due to the most excellent case of hitting a demographic sweet spot ever. The book was a feminist retelling of the Arthurian Mythos where Morgan Le Fay is the main character, a pagan from matriarchal goddess religions who is fighting against encroaching Christianity and patriarchal forms of society coming in with it. Also, it made Lancelot bisexual and his conflict is how torn he is about his attraction to both Arthur and Guinevere.

Remember, this novel came out in 1983 – talk about being ahead of your time! If it came out today, the reaction from a certain corner would be something like “it is with a heavy heart that I inform you that tumblr is at it again.”

Man, demographically speaking, that’s called “nailing it.” It used to be one of the favorite books of the kind of person who’s bookshelf is dominated by fantasy novels about outspoken, fiery-tongued redheaded women, who dream of someday moving to Scotland, who love Enya music and Kate Bush, who sell homemade needlepoint stuff on etsy, who consider their religious beliefs neo-pagan or wicca, and who have like 15 cats, three of which are named Isis, Hypatia, and Morrigan.

This type of person is still with us, so why did this novel fade in popularity? There’s actually a single hideous reason: after her death around 2001, facts came out that Marion Zimmer Bradley abused her daughters sexually. Even when she was alive, she was known for defending and enabling a known child abuser, her husband, Walter Breen. To say people see your work differently after something like this is an understatement – especially if your identity is built around being a progressive and feminist author.

Robotech

I try to break up my sections on dead fandoms into three parts: first, I explain the property, then explain why it found a devoted audience, and finally, I explain why that fan devotion and community went away. Well, in the case of Robotech, I can do all three with a single sentence: it was the first boy pilot/giant robot Japanimation series that shot for an older, teenage audience to be widely released in the West. Robotech found an audience when it was the only true anime to be widely available, and lost it when became just another import anime show. In the days of Crunchyroll, it’s really hard to explain what made Robotech so special, because it means describing a different world.

Try to imagine what it was like in 1986 for Japanime fans: there were barely any video imports, and if you wanted a series, you usually had to trade tapes at your local basement club (they were so precious they couldn’t even be sold, only traded). If you were lucky, you were given a script to translate what you were watching. Robotech though, was on every day, usually after school. You want an action figure? Well, you could buy a Robotech Valkyrie or a Minmei figure at your local corner FAO Schwartz.

However, the very strategy that led to it getting syndicated is the very reason it was later vilified by the purists who emerged when anime became a widespread cultural force: strictly speaking, there actually is no show called “Robotech.” Since Japanese shows tend to be short run, say, 50-60 episodes, it fell well under the 80-100 episode mark needed for syndication in the US. The producer of Harmony Gold, Carl Macek, had a solution: he’d cut three unrelated but similar looking series together into one, called “Robotech.” The shows looked very similar, had similar love triangles, used similar tropes, and even had little references to each other, so the fit was natural. It led to Robotech becoming a weekday afternoon staple with a strong fandom who called themselves “Protoculture Addicts.” There were conventions entirely devoted to Robotech. The supposed shower scene where Minmei was bare-breasted was the barely whispered stuff of pervert legend in pre-internet days. And the tie in novels, written with the entirely western/Harmony Gold conception of the series and which continued the story, were actually surprisingly readable.

The final nail in the coffin of Robotech fandom was the rise of Sailor Moon, Toonami, Dragonball, and yes, Pokemon (like MC Hammer’s role in popularizing hip hop, Pokemon is often written out of its role in creating an audience for the next wave of cartoon imports out of insecurity). Anime popularity in the West can be defined as not a continuing unbroken chain like scifi book fandom is, but as an unrelated series of waves, like multiple ancient ruins buried on top of each other (Robotech was the vanguard of the third wave, as Anime historians reckon); Robotech’s wave was subsumed by the next, which had different priorities and different “core texts.” Pikachu did what the Zentraedi and Invid couldn’t do: they destroyed the SDF-1.

Legion of Super-Heroes

Legion of Superheroes was comic set in the distant future that combined superheroes with space opera, with a visual aesthetic that can best be described as “Star Trek: the Motion Picture, if it was set in a disco.”

I’ve heard wrestling described as “a soap opera for men.” If that’s the case, then Legion of Super-Heroes was a soap opera for nerds. The book is about attractive 20-somethings who seem to hook up all the time. As a result, it had a large female fanbase, which, I cannot stress enough, is incredibly unusual for this era in comics history. And if you have female fans, you get a lot of shipping and slashfic, and lots of speculation over which of the boy characters in the series is gay. The fanon answer is Element Lad, because he wore magenta-pink and never had a girlfriend. (Can’t argue with bulletproof logic like that.) In other words, it was a 1970s-80s fandom that felt much more “modern” than the more right-brained, bloodless, often anal scifi fandoms that existed around the same time, where letters pages were just nitpicking science errors by model train and elevator enthusiasts.

Legion Headquarters seemed to be a rabbit fuck den built around a supercomputer and Danger Room. Cosmic Boy dressed like Tim Curry in Rocky Horror. There’s one member, Duo Damsel, who can turn into two people, a power that, in the words of Legion writer Jim Shooter, was “useful for weird sex...and not much else.”

LSH was popular because the fans were insanely horny. This is, beyond the shadow of a doubt, the thirstiest fandom of all time. You might think I’m overselling this, but I really think that’s an under-analyzed part of how some kinds of fiction build a devoted fanbase.

For example, a big reason for the success of Mass Effect is that everyone has a favorite girl or boy, and you have the option to romance them. Likewise, everyone who was a fan of Legion remembers having a crush. Sardonic Ultra Boy for some reason was a favorite among gay male nerds (aka the Robert Conrad Effect). Tall, blonde, amazonian telepath Saturn Girl, maybe the first female team leader in comics history, is for the guys with backbone who prefer Veronica over Betty. Shrinking Violet was a cute Audrey Hepburn type. And don’t forget Shadow Lass, who was a blue skinned alien babe with pointed ears and is heavily implied to have an accent (she was Aayla Secura before Aayla Secura was Aayla Secura). Light Lass was commonly believed to be “coded lesbian” because of a short haircut and her relationships with men didn’t work out. The point is, it’s one thing to read about the adventures of a superteam, and it implies a totally different level of mental and emotional involvement to read the adventures of your imaginary girlfriend/boyfriend.

Now, I should point out that of all the fandoms I’ve examined here, LSH was maybe the smallest. Legion was never a top seller, but it was a favorite of the most devoted of fans who kept it alive all through the seventies and eighties with an energy and intensity disproportionate to their actual numbers. My gosh, were LSH fans devoted! Interlac and Legion Outpost were two Legion fanzines that are some of the most famous fanzines in comics history.

If nerd culture fandoms were drugs, Star Wars would be alcohol, Doctor Who would be weed, but Legion of Super-Heroes would be injecting heroin directly into your eyeballs. Maybe it is because the Legionnaires were nerdy, too: they played Dungeons and Dragons in their off time (an escape, no doubt, from their humdrum, mundane lives as galaxy-rescuing superheroes). There were sometimes call outs to Monty Python. Basically, the whole thing had a feel like the dorkily earnest skits or filk-singing at a con. Legion felt like it’s own fan series, guest starring Patton Oswalt and Felicia Day.

It helped that the boundary between fandom and professional was incredibly porous. For instance, pro-artist Dave Cockrum did covers for Legion fanzines. Former Legion APA members Todd and Mary Biernbaum got a chance to actually write Legion, where, with the gusto of former slashfic writers given the keys to canon, their major contribution was a subplot that explicitly made Element Lad gay. Mike Grell, a professional artist who got paid to work on the series, did vaguely porno-ish fan art. Again, it’s hard to tell where the pros started and the fandom ended; the inmates were running the asylum.

Mostly, Legion earned this devotion because it could reward it in a way no other comic could. Because Legion was not a wide market comic but was bought by a core audience, after a point, there were no self-contained one-and-done Legion stories. In fact, there weren’t even really arcs as we know it, which is why Legion always has problems getting reprinted in trade form. Legion was plotted like a daytime soap opera: there were always five different stories going on in every issue, and a comic involved cutting between them. Sure, like daytime soap operas, there’s never a beginning, just endless middles, so it was totally impossible for a newbie to jump on board...but soap operas know what they are doing: long term storytelling rewards a long term reader.

This brings me to today, where Legion is no longer being published by DC. There is no discussion about a movie or TV revival. This is amazing. Comics are a world where the tiniest nerd groups get pandered to: Micronauts, Weirdworld, Seeker 3000, and Rom have had revival series, for pete’s sake. It’s incredible there’s no discussion of a film or TV treatment, either; friggin Cyborg from New Teen Titans is getting a solo movie.

Why did Legion stop being such a big deal? Where did the fandom that supported it dissolve to? One word: X-Men. Legion was incredibly ahead of its time. In the 60s and 70s, there were barely any “fan” comics, since superhero comics were like animation is today: mostly aimed at kids, with a minority of discerning adult/teen fans, and it was success among kids, not fans, that led to something being a top seller (hence, “fan favorites” in the 1970s, as surprising as it is to us today, often did not get a lot of work, like Don MacGregor or Barry Smith). But as newsstands started to push comics out, the fan audience started to get bigger and more important…everyone else started to catch up to the things that made Legion unique: most comics started to have attractive people who paired up into couples and/or love triangles, and featured extremely byzantine long term storytelling. If Legion of Super-Heroes is going to be remembered for anything, it’s for being the smaller scale “John the Baptist” to the phenomenon of X-Men, the ultimate “fan” comic.

The other thing that killed Legion, apart from Marvel’s Merry Mutants, that is, was the r-word: reboots. A reboot only works for some properties, but not others. You reboot something when you want to find something for a mass audience to respond to, like with Zorro, Batman, or Godzilla.

Legion, though, was not a comic for everybody, it was a fanboy/girl comic beloved by a niche who read it for continuing stories and minutiae (and to jack off, and in some cases, jill off). Rebooting a comic like that is a bad idea. You do not reboot something where the main way you engage with the property, the greatest strength, is the accumulated lore and history. Rebooting a property like that means losing the reason people like it, and unless it’s something with a wide audience, you only lose fans and won’t get anything in return for it. So for something like Legion (small fandom obsessed with long form plots and details, but unlike Trek, no name recognition) a reboot is the ultimate Achilles heel that shatters everything, a self-destruct button they kept hitting over and over and over until there was nothing at all left.

E. E. Smith’s Lensman Novels

The Lensman series is like Gil Evans’s jazz: it’s your grandparents’ favorite thing that you’ve never heard of.

I mean, have you ever wondered exactly what scifi fandom talked about before the rise of the major core texts and cultural objects (Star Trek, Asimov, etc)? Well, it was this. Lensmen was the subject of fanfiction mailed in manilla envelopes during the 30s, 40s, and 50s (some of which are still around). If you’re from Boston, you might recognize that the two biggest and oldest scifi cons there going back to the 1940s, Boskone (Boscon, get it?) and Arisia, are references to the Lensman series. This series not only created space opera as we know it, but contributed two of the biggest visuals in scifi, the interstellar police drawn from different alien species, and space marines in power armor.

My favorite sign of how big this series was and how fans responded to it, was a great wedding held at Worldcon that duplicated Kimball Kinnison and Clarissa’s wedding on Klovia. This is adorable:

The basic story is pure good vs. evil: galactic civilization faces a crime and piracy wave of unprecedented proportions from technologically advanced pirates (the memory of Prohibition, where criminals had superior firearms and faster cars than the cops, was strong by the mid-1930s). A young officer, Kimball Kinnison (who speaks in a Stan Lee esque style of dialogue known as “mid-century American wiseass”), graduates the academy and is granted a Lens, an object from an ancient mystery civilization, who’s true purpose is unknown.

Lensman Kinnison discovers that the “crime wave” is actually a hostile invasion and assault by a totally alien culture that is based on hierarchy, intolerant of failure, and at the highest level, is ruled by horrifying nightmare things that breathe freezing poison gases. Along the way, he picks up allies, like van Buskirk, a variant human space marine from a heavy gravity planet who can do a standing jump of 20 feet in full space armor, Worsel, a telepathic dragon warrior scientist with the technical improvisation skills of MacGyver (who reads like the most sadistically minmaxed munchkinized RPG character of all time), and Nandreck, a psychologist from a Pluto-like planet of selfish cowards.

The scale of the conflict starts small, just skirmishes with pirates, but explodes to near apocalyptic dimensions. This series has space battles with millions of starships emerging from hyperspacial tubes to attack the ultragood Arisians, homeworld of the first intelligent race in the cosmos. By the end of the fourth book, there are mind battles where the reflected and parried mental beams leave hundreds of innocent bystanders dead. In the meantime we get evil Black Lensmen, the Hell Hole in Space, and superweapons like the Negasphere and the Sunbeam, where an entire solar system was turned into a vacuum tube.

It’s not hard to understand why Lensmen faded in importance. While the alien Lensmen had lively psychologies, Lensman Kimball Kinnison was not an interesting person, and that’s a problem when scifi starts to become more about characterization. The Lensman books, with their love of police and their sexism (it is an explicit plot point that the Lens is incompatible with female minds – in canon there are no female Lensmen) led to it being judged harshly by the New Wave writers of the 1960s, who viewed it all as borderline fascist military-scifi establishment hokum, and the reputation of the series never recovered from the spirit of that decade.

Prisoner of Zenda

Prisoner of Zenda is a novel about a roguish con-man who visits a postage-stamp, charmingly picturesque Central European kingdom with storybook castles, where he finds he looks just like the local king and is forced to pose as him in palace intrigues. It’s a swashbuckling story about mistaken identity, swordfighting, and intrigue, one part swashbuckler and one part dark political thriller.

The popularity of this book predates organized fandom as we know it, so I wonder if “fandom” is even the right word to use. All the same, it inspired fanatical dedication from readers. There was such a popular hunger for it that an entire library could be filled with nothing but rip-offs of Prisoner of Zenda. If you have a favorite writer who was active between 1900-1950, I guarantee he probably wrote at least one Prisoner of Zenda rip-off (which is nearly always the least-read book in his oeuvre). The only novel in the 20th Century that inspired more imitators was Sherlock Holmes. Robert Heinlein and Edmond “Planet Smasher” Hamilton wrote scifi updates of Prisoner of Zenda. Doctor Who lifted the plot wholesale for the Tom Baker era episode, “Androids of Tara,” Futurama did this exact plot too, and even Marvel Comics has its own copy of Ruritania, Doctor Doom’s Kingdom of Latveria. Even as late as the 1980s, every kids’ cartoon did a “Prisoner of Zenda” episode, one of the stock plots alongside “everyone gets hit by a shrink ray” and the Christmas Carol episode.

Prisoner of Zenda imitators were so numerous, that they even have their own Library of Congress sub-heading, of “Ruritanian Romance.”

One major reason that Prisoner of Zenda fandom died off is that, between World War I and World War II, there was a brutal lack of sympathy for anything that seemed slightly German, and it seems the incredibly Central European Prisoner of Zenda was a casualty of this. Far and away, the largest immigrant group in the United States through the entire 19th Century were Germans, who were more numerous than Irish or Italians. There were entire cities in the Midwest that were two-thirds German-born or German-descent, who met in Biergartens and German community centers that now no longer exist.

Kurt Vonnegut wrote a lot about how the German-American world he grew up in vanished because of the prejudice of the World Wars, and that disappearance was so extensive that it was retroactive, like someone did a DC comic-style continuity reboot where it all never happened: Germans, despite being the largest immigrant group in US history, are left out of the immigrant story. The “Little Bohemias” and “Little Berlins” that were once everywhere no longer exist. There is no holiday dedicated to people of German ancestry in the US, the way the Irish have St. Patrick’s Day or Italians have Columbus Day (there is Von Steuben’s Day, dedicated to a general who fought with George Washington, but it’s a strictly Midwest thing most people outside the region have never heard of, like Sweetest Day). If you’re reading this and you’re an academic, and you’re not sure what to do your dissertation on, try writing about the German-American immigrant world of the 19th and 20th Centuries, because it’s a criminally under-researched topic.

A. Merritt

Pop quiz: who was the most popular and influential fantasy author during the 1930s and 40s?

If you answered Tolkien or Robert E. Howard, you’re wrong - it was actually Abraham Merritt. He was the most popular writer of his age of the kind of fiction he did, and he’s since been mostly forgotten. Gary Gygax, creator of Dungeons and Dragons, has said that A. Merritt was his favorite fantasy and horror novelist.

Why did A. Merritt and his fandom go away, when at one point, he was THE fantasy author? Well, obviously one big answer was the 1960s counterculture, which brought different writers like Tolkien and Lovecraft to the forefront (by modern standards Lovecraft isn’t a fantasy author, but he was produced by the same early century genre-fluid effluvium that produced Merritt and the rest). The other answer is that A. Merritt was so totally a product of the weird occult speculation of his age that it’s hard to even imagine him clicking with audiences in other eras. His work is based on fringe weirdness that appealed to early 20th Century spiritualism and made sense at the time: reincarnation, racial memory, an obsession with lost race stories and the stone age, and weirdness like the 1920s belief that the Polar Arctic is the ancestral home of the Caucasian race. In other words, it’s impossible to explain Merritt without a ton of sentences that start with “well, people in the 1920s thought that...” That’s not a good sign when it comes to his universality.

That’s it for now. Do you have any suggestions on a dead fandom, or do you keep one of these “dead” fandoms alive in your heart?

#fandom history #lensman #robotech #prisoner of zenda #mists of avalon

3K notes · View notes

thattimdrakeguy · 3 years

Note

Look, I don't want this to sound bad or be misinterpreted, that's why I'm writing it to you, who are one of the few human beings in the fandom who take more than 5 seconds to think before speaking.

Look, I think I'm just sick of the timkon, I've never been one of those who ship but I just don't care, everyone can imagine what they want, it's just that in this case, it's just on another level.

I'm not homophobic or anything annoying like that, I was among the first to jump with excitement when the first Urban Legends request came out hinting at Tim's reveal.

It's just that I'm fed up, since it became official about Tim it seems that everyone only wanted it for their ships, it doesn't help that the timkon really is one of those ships maked because two characters are close so they should automatically be a couple.

The ship stems from Geoff Johns' TT era where none of the characters were particularly well written, I've seen people who literally only like that run because of the moments they assigned to the ship.

And the worst and what has bothered / surprised me the most at the time of writing this silly complaint, I really just cannot process that there are really people outraged and spitting billis at DC for not putting a ship that is not canon in any way in Titans , that simple, as if it were something real or elemental of both characters.

At the same level of those same people who want to make Kon homosexual from one issue to another just to stick him with Tim and throw the narrative sense in the trash, I don't know what to say anymore, thanks in advance.

Honestly, I'm right there with you.

I'm not sure I can say I'm sick of it. Cause really I'm sick of most of the fandom's stuff.

Because so much of the things are popular is just bandwagoning and that's it. Like I bet you, without finding whatever it is to jump on online, they would not still like it as much and may have a total different view even.

Some of the hills people die on are freaking crazy cause I read a lot of comics and they're often so off the mark it's honestly, so so honestly head scratching.

And I'm not saying this to be like, "yeah screw you TimKon stans", cause legitimately I'm not. People enjoying whatever is good as long as it's not morally wrong. Cause that just means people are enjoying themselves. Which is good in the end.

But boy, do I not get it from a fuller perspective. They were just suddenly best friends in a series without much good characterization. During Y.J. they got on better terms...but not really best friends.

Why...would they be? lol

Neither of them are into the same things. They're quite different. Barely shown just hanging out.

Kon was closer with Bart if I had to compare.

But ships and stans generally speaking. Always have insanely loud, insanely toxic people.

They lie, gaslight, bully, exaggerate, and go into denial about stuff to create this preferred image for whatever it is. Not limited to TimKon. Cause I mean in literally every fan base. In that way.

It's why I stopped being on as much. There's too much about stuff people don't know a lot about and won't let go of. And again I get it. But when you really care about them cause it's a comfort thing or that's just how your mind works, odds are you really won't like it.

I don't find the fun in lying to myself or pretending I find the same jokes funny time and time again.

Like, no, that's exhausting lol

Idgaf about some random dude with a strawman argument online tryna make me feel like a crap person.

"Oh so you prefer when Batman hits his kids huh??"

Like, uh, nah. lol

Just exhausted of fanon. Why do people forget there's a gray area? Sheesh. I'm not into stuff that comes from a janky source at best. I want to like actual content.

Anyways I find people that want Kon to be gay, as in loud ones not all of them, literally just want it for their ship. They don't actually care about the character/characters. They got obsessed with it so much that it's probably not healthy. I've yet to see someone that actually seems to genuinely like the character get so stressed about the ship.

Most of the ones that care about Kon aren't stressed about the ship being canon. Some ship it. But barely nuts about it. Some may want it. But they aren't acting as if they are canon and it's imperative.

That's my experience at the very least.

10 notes · View notes

bigskydreaming · 4 years

Note

But that conversation between Bruce and Dick is pre-Crisis. (It's Donna's wedding, a mess of BLAMs which may or may not have happened post-Crisis. And I note the absence of the "bad guys crash the wedding" cliché.)

Things aren’t as clearly separated into pre-Crisis and post-Crisis as people like to claim, though. Like, at the time, there was a lot of crossover-acknowledgment from storylines both pre-and post Crisis, and there was never like, a clear definitive line where nothing from before Crisis mattered any longer after it. That was never what that event was, or how it was utilized. Rather, Crisis was used as a convenient way to INTRODUCE a sizable number of retcons, but it didn’t mean that everything outside of those retcons that came before was like, no longer valid.

In terms of this specifically......tons of things to do with Dick, Jason and Bruce pre-Crisis still remained in continuity and relevant all the way up to the New 52. When Jason fought Tim at Titans Tower when he came back, he specifically referenced having been a Titan for a couple missions - that definitely straddled the line of pre and post Crisis and didn’t fall cleanly into either camp. As well as being references to stories that happened BEFORE his post-Crisis origin retcon was canonized, thus further muddying the waters - but regardless, the point is, all of that is still in continuity by the time he returned as the Red Hood. It still mattered, not just in terms of oh technically that happened, but in terms of it and the events within it still being relevant to STORIES post-Crisis. Similarly, when Dick went to the Batcave to see Bruce after he returned from space and found out Jason was dead, that was all definitively post-Crisis, but in that scene, they referenced pre-Crisis events and conversations.

In fact, the whole reason I brought up Dick not hating Jason in the thread with that conversation between Bruce and Dick pre-Crisis.....is because the only time Bruce and Dick actually talk about Dick’s feelings about Jason is POST-Crisis, in NTT #55, when Bruce accuses Dick of never even liking Jason, of resenting him for being adopted when Dick wasn’t......

In response to which, Dick says no, he DIDN’T resent Bruce adopting Jason and not him, he’d never said that, he’d only asked WHY Bruce hadn’t adopted him as well....

Aka....that literal conversation I cited from Donna’s wedding. That was the conversation they were both referencing, post-Crisis. It just happened to have happened pre-Crisis. Its just...it had never actually been invalidated or contradicted or included in a retcon at any point in between.

Like, I’m trying not to be all defensive here, but this is the kinda thing that bugs me a lot. I say a thing, usually while pointing to a thing from canon that establishes that no, the takes a lot of people are going with are a fanon invention here, which begs the question...WHY such a strong preference for the fanon over the canon in specific instances, especially if the fanon happens to enable more of the very same KIND of unnecessary family conflict they claim to hold against canon in the first place.....

And then someone tries to ‘disprove’ this, WITH canon, or by citing why canon apparently is irrelevant here, and so its like....well, which is it? Am I too fixated on canon and that’s why my take doesn’t have that much merit, or am I wrong about canon and that’s why my take doesn’t have merit?

People seem to want to have it both ways when it comes to a lot of my posts, with the only real consistency seeming to be a determination to make it seem like there’s no validity to what I’m saying whatsoever.

That bugs, dude.

My point is just....the literal whole reason I made that post and thread was because I was trying to express that the fanon take that like, the only reason Bruce delayed so long in adopting Dick was that he didn’t want to come between Dick and his memory of his parents and he wasn’t sure this is something Dick would even want, is like....fanon.

I made that post - as I clearly established within the post itself - because the problem I have with this take is it was WELL established, at MULTIPLE points in the past that Dick actively wanted to be adopted by Bruce. He expressed this at Donna’s wedding, which as you said, is pre-Crisis. He then further affirmed this in their conflict after Jason’s death, which was post-Crisis. And then, as my post pointed out, it was STILL almost fifteen years AFTER that point when Bruce finally made the move to adopt Dick, with a rather anticlimactic speech about it not really changing anything and being just a mere formality.....

Even though it had been a very definite source of angst and internal turmoil and doubt about where he stood in Bruce’s eyes, at various points looooooong before then.

Points that were never at any time erased from continuity, as they existed and were referenced on either side of the retcon-period you’re referring to.

And then, I just happened to also tack on the PS that btw, further reminder that the fanon about Dick hating and resenting Jason was just fanon too with no real basis beyond that......by pointing to this convo pre-Crisis where Dick explicitly said as much....with it again being ratified post-Crisis when Dick references this very conversation and expresses the exact same idea he’d had all along.

So, the thing is. I’m fairly certain my point stands. There’s a clear continuance of thought in all the points I mention, no matter where they stand in the timeline.

And the thing that gets under my skin so much about asks or reblogs of this nature is like.....I don’t really understand what the aim here is? Is it just to discredit my citing of canon by raising issues that.....don’t actually change what I cited from canon?

And also, can you understand why it would be frustrating to see it so often being made an issue of semantics, when personally, I’ve always expressed that my fixation on canon vs fanon stems from one thing only: I don’t pretend like people don’t have every right to do whatever they want with fanfic or headcanons, I’m simply raising the question of WHY.

Why certain takes.

Why are so many people SO invested into adhering to takes that put the burden on Dick to be responsible for his own delayed adoption - something he’s angsted about significantly - and thus make him really, the only person truly responsible for his own angst there.

My issue has never been with popular fanon takes existing. Its that I think people should be able to back them up with why these takes are so important to them, that they’re so invested in defending them, from any criticism. There literally is not a single fanon I dislike, where there isn’t a very clear and definite REASON I dislike that fanon, that has nothing to do with it just not being canon.

Like, my criticism of this particular fanon isn’t that oh its fanon, it doesn’t count, its not real. My criticism is oh, I think its a problem that fandom’s focus is primarily trained on coming up with reasons for a son to be responsible for his own doubts and insecurities as to his place in a family/his father’s eyes.....when canon has repeatedly established that he’s EXPRESSED these doubts and insecurities, they’re NOT an unknown quantity to his father, and thus....the ball was in his father’s court all along. And its only fanon that has insisted otherwise....which to be begs the very relevant question: WHY. Why is it so often argued that this should be more the responsibility and fault of a child with abandonment issues and decades of insecurities and self-esteem issues here....in order to gloss over the fact that the power always lay with the father to address all of these issues.....just by....actually addressing them?

That’s the issue with this particular storyline for me at least, its always been the issue, and thus all the canon vs fanon is incidental to it, and the more its made about that, the more frustrating it is, because like....my point and my question has always remained the same, and all that ever results is a lot of people dancing around distracting from those two things rather than ever just engaging with them.

13 notes · View notes

bigskydreaming · 4 years

Note

You know what bothers me with newer Tim fans, especially Red Robin fans? Their obsession with villainTim. There's these two popular genius tropes, one is the cold sociopath type and the oblivious manic type, they seem to use like a hybrid of these for him. So one of their favorite headcanon is what if Tim DID join Ra's and turned against Bruce. Because R'as appreciates him more and called him DetECtive. And this is my villain origin, I don't trust these people. I don't think they get Tim.

Yeaaaaah, I’ve seen enough of the stories you’re talking about to be familiar with the trend, and I agree that I’m not at all a fan of that take on Tim, but whatevs. I’ve definitely noted how much it helps enable casual ableism and a whoooooole lot of negative or dismissive reference to or framing of neurodivergencies LIKE sociopathy, psychopathy and BPD (not saying that you were doing that, as I read it as like, just your referencing fics that EMBRACE those descriptions of those things), lol, but tbh, that’s a complaint I’ve long had with the Batman franchise and its fandom in their entireties. For people who talk a good game about “but all Batman’s rogues are mentally ill and that’s why he’s either great for how he deals with them or the worst for how he deals with them depending on your take on him” like....there’s a hell of a lot of casual ableism thrown about how bipolar Dick is (not talking about the honest, sincere examinations of him being possibly bipolar, but more just the fact that people so casually ARRIVE at that conclusion due to how ‘easy’ it makes it to reconcile the opposing extremes of his character when like.....those are really only fanon based in the first place) or like the takes you described about Tim, and don’t even get me STARTED on many of the takes on “Pit madness.”

But also, in lines with the Tim fans who specifically like him as like, the Ultimate Villainous Mastermind, that’s not specific to Tim fans, I’d say. I think all of the Batkids have fans that make me go Why Tho when it comes to their seeming preferred takes......much like how Bruce has so many canon writers and fans who PREFER him as the lone, brooding guy who drives away everyone around him so he can be a hermit in a cave. Like, there are those Dick fans who only seem to really like Dick when he’s well, being raped. Or the Jason fans who actively WANT him abandoned and ‘misunderstood’ and just like.....Jason Against The World (Including his family). Etc, etc.

So its not just Tim, I mean, there are fans of every Bat character where I’m just like. Yeah. I don’t get you guys. But whatevs. *Shrugs*

I will say though, the “Tim should be with Ra’s instead of Bruce because at least he APPRECIATES Tim” trope is right up there with the “Bruce is a bad dad, and let’s prove that by comparing him to Slade as we characterize Slade as Dad of The Year” in Things That Make Me Laugh Hysterically and Also Go Oww My Brain.

11 notes · View notes

bigskydreaming · 4 years

Note

To me the most strange thing about the Dick is a manchild take is that often the same people that say this are the same people that say that Dick's primary characterization should always be as a pillar of support for Bruce and the others. So, basically that Bruce and the others are so helpless that they should be mothered by a manchild. As a preference, I find it it kinda ???

Exactly! There’s no consistency to it, and the thing is, I feel like a lot of people tend to treat Dick as a plot device rather than an actual character in his own right. What I mean is, even in big ensemble fics that feature almost the entire family, when most everyone has their own little storylines, Dick’s sole storyline is acting as a supporting character in everyone else’s storyline. Essentially, its like rather than people going into writing a fic with a specific characterization of Dick in mind already, like they do for most characters, I feel like a lot of the stories out there start with the author figuring out what their plot is, what their preferred characters are doing….and then Dick’s characterization within their fic tends to end up being almost completely determined by what role they want him to play.

Like……as you said, a huge facet of his core characterization is that he almost always prioritizes being a pillar of support for Bruce and the others….but in fanfics, he’s just as likely to be the antagonistic foil that’s causing drama within the family by not understanding Jason or favoring Damian over Tim or whatever…..and its like he ends up that way purely because writers want some internal strife within the Batfam, but they want Tim and Jason to get along, and they want Bruce to interact with Jason as a son and Damian’s too young to cause the kinds of disruptions within the family from internal/ideological disagreements that authors are usually after….so Dick ends up shoehorned into the role of obstinate last holdout getting in the way of the whole family getting along because he just can’t get over himself or whatever.

But then go two fics down from that one and its a whole other ballgame, because in this fic now, Dick gets along with everyone, everyone loves him, but ultimately in the end his lack of contributing to family drama comes from the fact that as far as that fic is concerned, he’s too ineffectual to ever actually be a problem for the family. He’s just kinda there, solely because he was the first kid Bruce took in, but no attention is paid to the fact that he created Robin, DEFINED Robin. And instead the fact that he’s still alive at all is basically implied to be a fluke because he’s not really that bright compared to the others, not really exceptionally talented compared to the others, the only thing he has going for him is he has seniority, and he’s just too gosh-darned happy and perky and nice for anyone to stay mad at for long……so Dick ends up shoehorned here into the role of comic relief, either by cracking jokes constantly and never taking anything seriously for the sake of ‘family morale,’ or just by being the butt of the rest of the family’s constant jokes. With these fics, you get 50/50 odds of it going either way.

And then on the very next page of fics you’re likely to run into one where he’s supportive of all the others rather than antagonistic, yes, and he’s considered competent and effective at what he does, sure, but now with these fics, he’s basically relegated to the role of wallpaper, because the story’s not supposed to be about HIM and the authors don’t want him drawing focus away from their preferred characters. He’s not the character people should be hoping or expecting to see in a starring or even a major role, when reading their fics, is basically what the sentiment feels like there.

Like, he’s there, he’s present, he’s competent and helpful, but it largely ends up feeling like all of that is because ironically, having him NOT be there and coming up with reasons and justifications for that….would draw or require more focus on him than they want to spend. So instead he’s present in the story, but that’s about it.

He largely just….exists, within these types of stories. At best he’s there to be a glorified bodyguard to his various siblings, and be hanging around so that he can swoop in and save them from any major danger that isn’t the direct focus of the plot…..but he has little to no scenes other than ones where he’s directly acting to save, rescue, emotionally support or offer sage wisdom or a shoulder to lean on, for any of his siblings or Bruce himself.

He has no problems of his own, as far as the fic ever mentions, no priorities or personal ambitions beyond ‘always be available for whatever his family needs, whenever his family needs it’ and everything you learn about him in the first couple chapters of that story, when establishing his place/status quo within that particular fic….like, who and what he is and cares about and prioritizes and even just talks about in the first couple chapters will basically still be the exact same things in the final chapters of the fic….because absolutely nothing throughout the fic has actually affected HIM, changed HIM, impacted HIM in any kind of meaningful way that would lead to actual character development or even just….change.

…wait, hang on, I take that back. There is one sizable exception in these types of fics, where there is focus on Dick’s POV and him being impacted by the plot and ‘changing’…..but that exception comes in one form, and one form only: Scenes Where Dick Self-Flagellates and Regrets Being the Worst Brother/Son Ever to Jason, Tim, Bruce, etc. And reflects on how massively he’s failed or let those members of his family down at one point or another in the past, when they have only ever been there for him, consistently, without fail, and thus they deserve better than his previous fuck-ups with them and he staunchly vows to Make It Right and from this day forward, Do Better and dedicate himself to being the best brother, son, blah blah blah that ever lived.

(With the problem being - or well, my problem at least, lol - like…..rarely if ever are these things Dick is beating himself up over, like…actually his fault or things he should feel like a terrible human being for. And granted, Dick has a definite canon tendency towards self-blame and assuming the worst of his own actions and the fallout from his actions, so its not like its out of character for him to be an unreliable narrator in this regard…..BUT like….when you’re using an unreliable narrator to like, beat himself up for being just the worst ever, you kiiiiiiinda need to balance that out with the narrative or someone else in the narrative at some point contesting that unreliable narration…..and being like….what? No??? Omg enough with the Catholic guilt Dick, you’re not even Catholic, and you definitely aren’t responsible for me dying in Ethiopia at the exact same time you were light years away on an entirely different planet, dumbass.” ANYWAY).

So I mean….there are all these various roles Dick plays in different kinds of almost….I wanna say like ‘genres of Batfam fanfiction’……and IMO that’s how large parts of fandom manage to juggle all these completely contradictory views of Dick without ever finding it odd or illogical that he can be considered to be both the Batfamily’s primary source of emotional support one second, and the thorn in everyone’s side the next. Because many people, I feel, just aren’t approaching his character in terms of how his characterization, and thus his presence, would affect their plot, result in specific kinds of dynamics, interactions etc…..rather, they’re looking at it from the complete opposite direction. They do all that with the characters they’re more interested in writing, and then when they have most of it figured out, they basically just pigeon hole him into whatever gaps in the plot need filling, and go with whatever popular take on him is most convenient for what their story still needs or is lacking.

And it all kinda loops back around, I think, to make it this sort of self-perpetuating cycle…..writers aren’t as interested in writing Dick as they are the other siblings because they don’t find him all that compelling, except what they actually don’t find all that compelling is probably more accurately labeled various fanon views of him that have at most just a superficial relationship with his more developed canon characterizations.

But regardless, they’re not that interested in him as a character, due to mostly equating him with fanon takes that prioritize his usefulness as a plot device with ready made connections to most anyone else a fic needs to bring in, rather than trying to view him, understand him and relate to him as an actual character in his own right…..so they too end up also just using him as a plot device rather than try and even just give him some more development themselves.

And it all feeds back into itself, forming this constant feedback loop that’s ironically mostly just fueled by itself, rather than anything outside that loop of perception and perpetuation….like, y’know, his actual stories and his actual well-established dynamics with various other characters.

Its like….you know how sometimes people are like “how would you describe yourself/this person/this character in just three words, like what are the three words that best encompass them in your mind?” Like…..that’s not SUPPOSED to be an easy thing to do. That’s SUPPOSED to be a hard - and revealing - question, because three words is a very very limited frame to try and condense entire personalities into in a way that’s in any way actually specific to them as an individual rather than just a list of generic traits that could equally apply to any number of people.

And yet….I do not think a lot of Batfam fans would consider that a hard question to answer about Dick Grayson, and therein lies my eternal frustration. Like I’m pretty sure we can all predict what a lot of those answers would be: “funny,” “angry,” “cheerful,” “supportive,” “moody,” “hopeful” and various other things related to either 1) Dick the Emotional Support Non-Entity, 2) Dick the Unattainable and Impossible to Match or Even Relate to Standard or 3) Dick the Antagonistic Foil, etc.

But my point is……I do not think a lot of fans would find it difficult to reduce Dick down to just a short list of generic character traits….because that’s the pattern I’m talking about in fics. A huge amount of his depictions in fic could be summed up with just two or three adjectives….because whatever role he’s been designated in a particular fic……that’s it for him, most of the time. As in…..he doesn’t at any point break out of that very specific and definitive box the fic puts him in because its been slated as the role/place/designation he’s most ‘useful’ to the plot and the other characters and the story over all. So whatever he is in that fic….he’s usually JUST that one thing. His actions are usually perfectly in sync with whatever the other characters expect those actions to be, his mood is fairly consistent throughout with very little variation, and his motivations are usually fairly superficial and don’t require a lot of digging under the hood to see what’s really going on deep down beneath his surface level.

*Shrugs* Anyway, that’s my take on all that, and the various contradictions that all conversations about him are practically immersed in, all at the same time. Granted, I’m biased as hell and who can say if I’m actually on to anything there or not, but for me the most telling and pertinent question about fandom’s perception of Dick Grayson is:

When one of the few things everyone can agree on about him is that he’s a natural performer and the face he presents to people around him is often just a mask hiding his true thoughts and feelings….

Why on earth aren’t more writers interested in pulling back the mask and seeing, writing, revealing or expanding upon whatever might be underneath?

Cuz the way Dick’s primarily used in fics literally only makes sense to me if you’re prioritizing his role in fics based on what the plot or other characters require.

Looking at him purely on a character level, in terms of archetypes? “Eternal secret keeper who even (successfully) keeps secrets from the rest of a family made up entirely of people who are both adept secret keepers themselves and adept detectives”…..

Like how the hell do you tell me that archetype’s only narrative appeal lies in advancing everyone else’s plots? For all intents and purposes, Dick is essentially the trickster archetype within the Batfam, innately predisposed to constantly come into conflict with his chosen father figure, given that Bruce in contrast embodies a stern lawful judge type archetype. Thus with the two of them operating off of entirely different world views that nevertheless can overlap just often enough to make that not quite a given….given that trickster archetypes, by their very nature, have flexible alignments and can go in entirely different directions from one story to the next, all while still being true to themselves and their core archetype.

Then you have Jason, with it being hilarious to me that people so often write Jason as being convinced Bruce will never understand him the way he does Dick, that they could never have the kind of bond Bruce and Dick had in his eyes…..with the funny part about this IMO being that Jason is one of the Batfam MOST similar to Bruce, archetype wise. Because Jason also operates almost entirely off of his own convictions, based entirely off his own moral code….WHICH IS THE EXACT SAME THING BRUCE DOES….the only part they actually disagree on is the precise specifics of their two differing moral codes.

Jason has always had FAR more in common with Bruce than he realizes or cares to admit to, and if you look at Dick as a trickster archetype forced reluctantly into the role of arbitrator or peace-keeper purely because there’s no one else stepping up to do the job, even though its not a role he’s ideally suited for because of how it constantly forces him into shapes and actions that are contrary to his own nature and thus result in so much of Dick’s personal conflicts ultimately being with HIMSELF….

….eternally torn between trying to be true to himself and who he wants to be, while at the same time trying to be what his family needs him to be because he’s the only one of them with a track record showing he at least is willing to bend to try and accommodate all their conflicting viewpoints, whereas they all tend to try and just bulldoze each other into submission instead….which never works because they’re all equal parts Immovable Objects AND Unstoppable Forces at the same time…and each too stubborn to admit that their siblings/father/children are just as stubborn and willful as them so they could easily stalemate each other indefinitely, if they didn’t have a mediator present, who has enough flexibility to contort himself into whatever configuration is needed to find some kind of bridge or common ground between two conflicting family members who each refuse to budge even an inch….

Well anyway, my point with that little random offshoot was just that personally, I think Dick gets fed the fuck up with both Bruce and Jason at times and just wants to knock their heads together because its so frustrating to him that neither of them can see how alike they are and thus how they’re always THIS CLOSE to finding common ground, they literally just need to like….each move an inch to the right and maybe pivot like five degrees or less…..lolol.

Anyway. I kinda got carried away there with unnecessary narrative analysis and archetypes and whatnot that literally nobody asked, but umm, in response to your actual message itself….err…yes. Agreed. As a preference, I too find bwuh????? to be the most accurate response to the frigidly cold take that ‘Dick is the emotional support pillar for the Batfam but also Dick is massively dysfunctional and a disaster baby who is literally the worst of the Batfam at taking care of himself and not just dying because his favorite pizza place doesn’t deliver on a Tuesday and he doesn’t know how to get food another way so he’ll probably just starve I guess.’

Oh well.

27 notes · View notes