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adamsvanrhijn · 4 years

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Hello there! I have been happily working through your incredible wtmy,tbws fic like a duck enthusiastically eating a bowl of peas, and was wondering if I may request a director’s commentary on the "never cared to 'til a minute ago. Always been a delicate bloke." conversation OR whatever scene from that fic that you most enjoyed writing? Thank you!

thank you! i am loving that simile very much.................. a duck enthusiastically eating a bowl of peas. amazing.

under cut because the fic itself is Adult Content haha

& also because this is Absurdly long... doing this meme for other people is really hammering in for me how much i rely on single line dialogue & short paragraphs lol. i’d love to work on that, but, womp womp, it hasn’t really been happening.

there is ... a lot going on in this scene lol. i feel very galaxy brain while writing this fic and it’s very pretentious, but i’m just gonna poke at the relevant bits around that quote instead of quoting The Whole Thing. this is from chapter 5 of when to my soul, the body would say !

context -- they’ve had morning sex in front of a mirror, then they went for breakfast at the place they’re staying, where richard is using a persona for Safety Reasons, & now they’re just hanging out and richard has been checking thomas out for the last 5-15 minutes without him noticing... until he comments on thomas smoking, and then thomas...

...lets his eyes wander, himself.

Richard, fully dressed save for his shoes, is turned from the bureau, arm slung over the top of the chair. He did his hair this morning, because Evelyn Price would not have gotten up to anything in the night that could possibly alter the work of a week's worth of Brilliantine, and Thomas sort of hates it.

Not how it looks.

What it means. Or represents, rather. That they've got people other than each other upon whom they need to make good impressions, be they in service or just in the world at large.

right, so, this is like, the Ground Work Thoughts for thomas here as far as this particular interaction is concerned, because this is Very Much about perception / Being Perceived, and before the conversation even happens he’s paying richard a lot of attention, almost to the point of scrutiny. and richard is put together in a way that is very much not for thomas’s sake, it’s for they-left-the-room’s sake, and so he’s noticing that and that’s his frame of mind as they move on.

side note! hair styling oil & pomades really were worn for multiple days in a row. amazing. i could never. there should really be more in this fic about richard’s hair being all floraly <3 <3 <3 but there isn’t. womp womp. that would have been a Factor in this bit huh lol.

"You ever try it?" asks Thomas. Meaning smoking.

"No," he says. He tilts his head thoughtfully. "Never cared to 'til a minute ago. Always been a delicate bloke."

Thomas coughs impolitely.

"I don't see the harm in saying it, Thomas."

The feeling he can't describe leaves him, and a different one forms, in his gut instead of his lungs, an uncomfortable and unwelcome weight. Knotted.

aaaaand boom. thomas Did Not Sign Up For This.

richard’s being 100% honest, just speaking casually, but thomas’s reaction is enough to get him on the defensive & he’s not an idiot so he knows why, but this is also not something he has lately put a lot of thought into. he’s Accepted It About Himself (we’ll get into this). thomas meanwhile is not ready to approach the subject of Delicacy for anybody he cares about, because to him it’s not a good description, it’s not something he aspires to be or wants to come across as, but he has many times in his life come across as it anyway. he’s Not Like That.

so the word alone sticks in the wheels of his rolly suitcase emotional baggage, even though it’s richard using it on himself.

"Well, you clearly haven't got a problem with playing at being normal," Thomas says pointedly. Tough not to be pointed when he feels like this, because he's no stranger to it, is he. "If I didn't know better I'd be asking after your wife and baby like the rest of this place."

Lucky those people were leaving after breakfast; Thomas wouldn't be able to take two full days of it.

He hasn't asked about the photographs in the wallet yet, either, and he's not sure if he will.

normal being heterosexual, in this instance, which is contemporary vocabulary.

and richard is very good at playing straight when he’s not fearing for thomas’s life, so. it’s true! it’s a legitimate opinion. but it’s also a pretty significant logical leap that richard is about to pick up on, because that makes him uncomfortable, given thomas is basically saying.... you seem straight, what are you talking about, which isn’t going to make him feel excellent about the sense of identity he’s settled into.

the rest of this is an Achievement Thomas Is Yet To Unlock so i won’t say much other than that this is not a significant addition to richard as the reader might know him from ywntmha, but, a lot of the big emotional work & development in that fic happens in 1929, with this meeting as the impetus... so it is very significant for thomas, at this point. we’re still in january and they still have a ways to go both in the next 24 hours and in the rest of the year.

Richard raises his eyebrows. "And what's that got to do with it?"

He shrugs.

It should be obvious. It would be obvious, to anyone who bothered to think about it for more than half a second.

that’s not a good faith question; richard’s goading him into actually saying the underlying thought. on one level thomas knows that, which is why he doesn’t say that part out loud and only thinks it.

"It's pretending, is all it is," Richard continues, a little too gentle.

"Don't call yourself what they call you," Thomas returns, a little too sharp.

and since goading doesn’t work, new tactic on richard’s part here, and though thomas can tell it’s intentional it does work on him, so.

writing this was interesting for several reasons but one of the big ones is, and anybody who’s been following me since Before da will probably know this, i like... have very little patience for discussion about personal identity, especially when it comes to reclamation ? i am way more interested both on a personal and academic level (bc i can’t lie about that lmfao, hashtag english major) in community + external ideas imposed on people.

and this might seem like a very 2010s conversation for them to be having, but... this period of time was really the Dawn of queer/lgbt identity Concepts: words were being coined, communities were coming together in new ways, in continental europe & the us especially there was a lot of rapid development and transition here owing to various roaring 20s factors, and i think richard given his situation would have been exposed to that, for one, but also just, it’s gonna be in both their environments because it was getting to be a thing from the victorian era w/ the medicalisation of homosexuality and things are only expanding.

"delicate” is a euphemism, not a slur, but it has hella connotations & they are both fully aware of them.

"Rather it be me saying it than them."

Blasé like it doesn't mean a thing at all.

You should know better, he wants to say, you should know better than anyone.

"Don't see how you can feel that way when it's not true to begin with."

thomas’s Only Gay Friend Is My Boyfriend is showing here lol, this is shining light on a gap in what he knows about richard & what he Thinks he knows about richard, so there’s a dissonance. and he sees richard as Masculine on a conscious or subconscious level, and he’s in a These Are Antonyms place re “delicate”. some black & white thinking going on here.

& i feel like the other part is probably fairly explanatory but, richard gets a sense of control and self-assurance by using a word for himself that might not be kind coming out of other people’s mouths and Being Okay With That.

"Thomas…"

They lock eyes.

A tense moment passes.

It is Richard who breaks first. He turns back to the desk with a small sigh.

"This has very little to do with you," he says carefully.

richard, knowing thomas as he does, is able to tell that he’s taking this personally, because he Is, so that’s that there, but again this is something he’s already settled in himself and so there’s also an element of having to justify again this thing he’s already figured out, which he isn’t exactly fond of.

anyway i said i’d get into this -- there’s a lot of interesting like, Societal / Subcultural / Etc politics with regards to being a male servant in this day and age and Gender In General, and valets especially -- throughout the time period leading up to this but ESPECIALLY in the 1920s when there are fewer men in service than there ever have been and more and more kinds of, say, manufacturing jobs as the automobile industry picks up & labour saving devices start having more complicated parts, and probably yknow most of the boys he went to school with are in that or mining or railways, so he’d have thought about it earlier on in his life probably. or Has rather. ftr his brother was in the carriage works i don’t think that ever comes up but there’s a lot there lol. there’s some family stuff in but level in time that we’ll get to........... someday. ANYWAY.

the point is.

valeting is an effeminate job.

like, point blank. i’m seeing that idea both in sources specifically about servants & just general of-the-era stuff about great houses. when you’re talking about gay men in service a lot of them are valets, and some of that lines up w stereotypes & common lifestyle habits of gay men in general -- looking after hair shoes and clothing, obvs, attention to detail in physical appearance (note that men who Get Valeted also care about details, but they are not the ones who actually have to think and decide about it; whereas their wives are probably giving their ladies’ maids more directions as to hair styles and dresses etc etc because they’re expected to care about that part of the process in a way that men weren’t), exposure to social mores in a variety of different contexts, being well-connected within both the communities that help him get work done: tailoring, hairdressing, shoemakers, drapers, etc and in General, having softer skills like sewing and whatnot. and you’re unmarried and looking after the presentation of another man so there’s some like, desexualisation stuff there.

and thomas and richard would both know this very, very well. they’d have encountered the idea both as men in service and as gay men and especially as gay men in service.

this richard has been working at buckingham palace for more than twenty years at this point, minus his war backstory which....... is complex and i haven’t gotten into it very much anywhere but he was getting cosy with some higher ups and having To Do about presentation there too and like, was in the service corps which was non-combat supply lines ....... and apprenticing valeting / actually (non-principally) valeting the Literal King Of England for nine.

he has had a LOT of time to get over his shit.

he not only likes his job* but he’s also very good at his job, literal 2nd highest valet position in frankly The World, which is fucking wild, and that combined with his Childhood of like, being second best to his older brother who was like, a perfect human being so far as he could ever tell and that included being very traditionally like, athletic and Leaderly and having-a-sweetheart-in-your-youth-you-then-marry when he was more interested in, you know, story telling and Arts N Crafts (i’m being tongue in cheek) and just generally not ... especially into the Boys Will Be Boys stuff............................

he’s fine with it! he is Fine with being called delicate, it’s helped him get over a lot of his issues just to decide oh, this actually fits my personality and the trajectory my life has followed, so i’m going to just accept that and move on ! etc.

but thomas is not anywhere near there for himeslf and therefore he isn’t for other people, too, because one of thomas’s Problems is that he hates seeing other people comfortable and happy when he isn’t... and that even applies to richard, because love does not make us perfect.

*he wants to leave service and he’s tired of the constant scrutiny of working where he does for whom he does, but he does like his actual duties in a lot of ways.

well here’s a novel. i hope this satisfies you!!! <3 <3 <3

#lots of ..... gender in here...#downton abbey tag #fic talk tag

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thedogsled · 6 years

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13x04 as you’ve never heard it before: Trek vs. Wars

Both do it right. Both make some mistakes. Both have good intentions. Both are brought up in 13x04. Both have crazy ass fans who need to inform you how much superior one is than the other. But uh. I just find it amusing that in a season so far that has presented us with such duality, an episode that opens with a Star Wars reference throws in a Star Trek one as well just for consistency.

I’m going to touch on both because it’s fascinating to me, particularly as both references are so clearly bonded to Jack. And I know, I know. They’re obvious pop culture references, but there’s more underneath the surface to them if that’s all you know them as.

Okay, so I’ve seen people talking here and there about Anakin and Ahsoka. I didn’t watch Clone Wars (though it’s sitting on my shelf right here, oops), so I don’t actually know about Ahsoka, but obviously Anakin is a big deal.

I’ve seen meta comparing Jack’s potential arc to Luke’s and to Vader’s, but that’s because in a lot of ways their arcs are similar, it’s just that they have different outcomes. Luke, of course, has friends and family in his court, while Anakin is under the thumb of a master manipulator in Palpatine who essentially corrupts him because of his great potential power. There’s an easy line to draw there, of course, between Asmodeus and Palpatine. And so if you lean into the Anakin comparison, you have the following:

Anakin was not a child when he was taken in by Qui-Gon for training (I mean he was but by the standards of the Jedi Temple not really)

The Prophecy regarding Anakin said that he would bring balance to the Force (Ultimately he did, there were 2 Sith and 2 Jedi left)

The Jedi Council feared his power/influence and initially forbade his training

And then Anakin consequently lost all the people he cared about or who had faith in him, starting with Qui-Gon.

Which led to him being trained by Obi-Wan who was barely out of Padawan diapers and a bit of a rule breaker himself

And lets face it had a less than stellar upbringing too (But I guess the EU is no longer canon so w/e)

And don’t forget that Obi-Wan is pretty fucking depressed in general (He describes it as his fate to be sad) but he had just lost the person with which he had a profound bond

It’s no wonder Jack aspires to be more like Ahsoka. By Clone Wars Anakin - because of his skill and the lack of leadership experience of Obi-Wan - is a bit of a cocky dick. He endangers others. He’s arrogant, prideful, rageful, prone to outbursts of emotion and ultimately imperfect. The fact that he has such great power raises him above his peers, and those who train him begin to try to impede his process rather than give him - impetuous and unchallenged as he is - a position of wider influence. This leaves opportunity for Palpatine to prey on his feelings of how unfair this situation is. And ultimately? Anakin thinks he’s doing the right thing. He thinks he’s doing good because he’s been told it’s the right thing to do by someone he trusts.

"I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do. I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire."

Or paradise?

But Jack can be Luke too. The difference for Luke (just as it’s made clear in the scene of Jack in 13x04) is that he doesn’t want to become Anakin. Luke walks into that cave on Dagobah and in a nightmarish sequence this is the fear he’s presented with: that he and Vader have a great deal in common. (ftr he lops Vader’s head off and the mask explodes to reveal Luke’s face underneath) But it is this fear that allows Luke to choose his side.

This imo is a ray of hope for Jack. He knows what he wants to be: he wants to be good. He’s just not sure of what he’s feeling.

Which leads me to Spock.

Spock is also Jack. Now if you don’t know anything about Star Trek, you probably believe the hype: Spock is a green blooded alien freak from the planet Vulcan. He’s not. Spock is a half breed, half human and half Vulcan, and that’s why I’m going to compare him to Jack. That’s where these layers come from.

Vulcans breeding with humans is seen as a taboo, you see. It’s just not done. There’s all sorts of reasons for this (such as mating rituals) but among them is that Vulcans see humans as emotionally volatile (and unenlightened because of it). A half human child, therefore, is equally prone to this volatility. Spock attends Vulcan schools where he has disputes with other children and basically has to try twice as hard to BE Vulcan to prove that his human half doesn’t make him less than. This troubles his father, of course, because Sarek did fall in love with a human woman (two actually) and he loves and admires the humanity in his son. But Sarek - being wholly Vulcan - is never able to actually express this. Spock didn’t find out the true depth of his father’s feelings until he mindmelded with Picard in season 5 of TNG). Anyway, I’m wandering off topic.

The thing about Vulcans that is overlooked by haphazard pop culture references is that they do feel emotions. They feel them with deep intensity, but through societal pressure/meditation they’ve built a resilience to expressing them--a resilience that fractures every time their hormones go crazy. Spock struggles with his emotions because he has two conflicting halves to contend with, human volatile emotionality and Vulcan intensity with deliberate emotional repression. He is unemotional because he’s gone to pains to suppress it in the past, and identifying and empathizing/sympathizing with those emotions isn’t something his upbringing has trained him to do. Spock chooses to focus on his Vulcan side. As a consequence this half-Vulcan raised on Vulcan acts like a Vulcan because he doesn’t understand the emotions of the people around him, and is detached from something that a human upbringing could have taught him. Spock represents, therefore, an interesting example of duality because it is his choice which defines him:

Data: “As you examine your life, do you find you have missed your Humanity?" Spock: "I have no regrets." Data: "'No regrets.' That is a Human expression." Spock: "Yes. Fascinating."

(For those who don’t know Data’s story is more like Castiel’s, it’s a story about aspiring toward inachievable humanity)

(Author’s note: If you want an idea of how Vulcan culture works, it’s like imagine Toxic Masculinity: The Planet but instead of men being subtly forced to hide their vulnerability it’s generations of very long living, stubborn people being subtly forced to hide their emotions entirely. Nope, that still sounds like Earth)

So Jack is dumped in Dean and Sam’s world, fully grown, surrounded by all these emotions. He FEELS DEEPLY. He has strong and volatile emotions, just like Spock, that he has no understanding of how to demonstrate. Take, for example, that Jack went in to Mia and asked her to become his mother, the deep and intense emotion that motivated that arrangement. There is genuine emotion there, but Jack doesn’t know what to call it, how to identify with it, or if the feeling is good or bad (which is the greatest issue of all because he Does Not Want To Be Bad)--he only knows that it hurts. But what is he supposed to do with that hurt? Man up, maybe?

That Jack’s powers, therefore, are linked to his expressions of emotion is particularly interesting. Outbursts of emotion have been linked to power before in the show, and specifically parallels to Max Miller were brought up in this episode too. That’s no surprise. But Jack’s power is angelic in origin, so his being able to express it through emotion, which is arguably unangelic (though I have opinions on that, damn it) is a whole other kettle of cod.

Jack has been dumped in a world of emotion without the ability to empathize or sympathize. He’s trying, but it’s no surprise he’s having difficulty. Unlike Castiel who had years to begin to learn emotion long before he became human, Jack has been thrown in at the deep end, and it’s not helped at all that these tidepools of human grief are his window on that world because the one thing Sam and Dean aren’t being at the moment is emotionally consistent.

Anyway. I’d been staring at this gifset @elizabethrobertajones made and literally couldn’t put my inner trekkie to sleep. I’m sure this was meant to make more sense than it did originally, but it’s just my take on it. Both Anakin and Spock canonically experience strong emotions and both are taught by the institutions meant to train them that those emotions are dangerous. In Anakin’s case emotion helps him harness greater power. Both have to struggle with their duality, and both face prejudgement because of it. Ultimately despite their differences they both have to make a choice. Unfortunately for Jack, he has to deal with both aspects of his duality as a nephilim and whether his powers/emotions or possible lack of each make him good or evil.

Which leaves him struggling with one question: Who am I?

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