#disgraceful - to quote iroh | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

casualtheoriesandthoughts · 10 months

Text

Honor and Shame in Avatar: the Last Airbender

So I rewatched ATLA (as one does) recently and in my nostalgia trip, I found myself focusing on Zuko's "honor" obsession, and also the way I've seen people react to it. I realize that ATLA as a whole has been fan-theorized ad nauseam (though it doesn't seem to stop any of us!), but I do want to reflect on the way the word "honor" is interpreted by fans. I don't want to meme honor too much, though.

Too late, I suppose. But at any rate, this is probably fan-philosophy more than theory. I should preface this post by saying that my contention is based mostly on anecdotal evidence. I have seen fans assume that Zuko kind of discards the notion of "honor" more than a few times, especially when people read Zuko's arc as a commentary on abuse (which it definitely is, of course). This post from Blackwell Philosophy makes a similar conclusion, even though it attempts to draw on Confucian sources to elaborate on the concept of honor: "...as Zuko’s character arc shows, the only authentic honor we can pursue is the honor that lies within us and that comes from our own actions."

But let's remember that honor never ceases to be an operative idea even after Zuko makes the decision to switch sides. Iroh even says that this choice is about honor: "You restored your own honor, and only you can restore the honor of the Fire Nation." Whether you believe Iroh is up to you, but I'm inclined to take him and the series' terms seriously.

The Blackwell essay discusses righteous and conventional honor and disgrace, both of which describe relative states of esteem or reverence that people have for themselves or others. Righteous honor/disgrace comes from an inner assessment of one's virtues, and conventional honor/disgrace comes from external assessments. While I cannot claim to be familiar with Xunzi or Confucian philosophy more generally, this discussion is useful for drawing out a potential ambiguity that the English term "honor" that I suspect arises in the minds of English-speaking viewers.

For a show that seeks to draw significantly on Asian (especially Chinese) cultural, religious and philosophical resources, the use of the word honor in ATLA seems to flatten multiple ideas surrounding virtue, respect and propriety into a single usage. I realize it's a children's TV show, but it is still one that directly portrays war and colonial violence. Nuance is not missing from ATLA, most of the time anyway.

There are multiple words that translate to different aspects of honor in Confucian thought. Among them are the Five Virtues:

Rén (仁, benevolence, humaneness);

Yì (義, righteousness, justice);

Lǐ (禮, propriety, rites);

Zhì (智, wisdom, knowledge);

Xìn (信, sincerity, faithfulness).

All of these, in my opinion, bear upon the idea of honorable conduct in some way. "Honor" in English generally connotes propriety in one's relationships and a solid sense of one's own values, especially when shared in community with others (think of a brotherhood of knights or the retainers of a king). "Honor" is also a verb, which conveys esteem or reverence paid to someone else (often for good deeds performed). It is the latter usage that the Blackwell essay calls conventional honor (勢 - shì), quoting Xunzi, and which it recognizes need not be associated with righteous or "honorable" behavior. Other words that may be associated with conventional honor are 榮 (róng, glory) or 尊 (zūn, reverence), even when paid to a genuinely honorable person. It is this tension which Helen de Cruz, the author, recognizes as the central theme of Zuko's struggle with honor.

My point here is less about the correspondence of English to Chinese concepts, than to point out the awkwardness of the uses of the noun "honor" and the verb "to honor". It creates a slippage between the notion of externally received esteem and the personal, moral propriety that one has (and which Zuko ultimately claims).

Consider, by contrast, Iroh's repeatedly being scorned by his family and nation. He never once wavers from his own values and convictions, all the while remaining loyal to the welfare of his people and his family. Two places this shows up are his claim that he is not, in fact, a traitor to the Fire Nation when he turns on Zhao at the North Pole, and again when he explains that he would not take back the throne of the Fire Nation from Ozai, as he believed that history and the people would only view it as a power struggle between brothers. Both choices involve seeming straying from his purported causes (the Fire Nation and the resistance respectively), but in reality conform to his values for balance in the world and righteousness in governance. It is why Iroh, despite being elderly, chooses to assist his nephew Zuko and even allows himself to be imprisoned because of it.

This raises important questions about honor and its opposite, shame or disgrace. In my experience in English-speaking circles in America, there is a great deal of resistance to the very ideas of honor and shame, especially nowadays with conversations about mental health and self-love. I imagine that it is because these terms conjure feelings and images of inferiority and humiliation before family and community, especially if the terms of the conflict are being stated hypocritically. I certainly don't hold these feelings against anyone, though I wonder how we might recover the more basic principles behind "honor" and "shame" for living our lives in the future.

Honor and shame exist in many Asian cultures, with merits and flaws alike. As an Indian American myself, I grew up with my own concepts in Kannada of ಮರ್ಯಾದೆ (maryāde) and ಸಂಕೋಚ (saṅkōca). These are not exactly the same as "honor" and "shame" per se, but were extremely functional in teaching me about the relationship between a view of oneself and others' views of the same, albeit somewhat problematically. ಮರ್ಯಾದೆ (maryāde) is generally glossed as "etiquette" or "manners", but is often associated with notions of a proper upbringing and treating others well. ಸಂಕೋಚ (saṅkōca) is a variety of shame, experienced when gifts are excessive or favors are too generous. It literally means "contraction", and was taught to me as the idea of feeling small because of someone's inordinate generosity. It is not a good thing to shower gifts, praise or support when it makes someone feel incapable or unworthy of the fruits of their own efforts.

Thinking about this in relationship to Zuko's own journey with the ideas of honor and shame, I believe it is possible to view honor more generatively. Honor isn't about getting accolades or validation from others (at the very least, not all the time), but living fully by one's values, particularly in relationship with others. Zuko wanted his father's love, but didn't realize that no amount of falling in line with his expectations would earn him self-respect, because it violated his own principles and severed his relationships with people he cared about, like his uncle. Insofar as honor serves to make one's relationships ethical, just and even loving, I think it's not such a bad idea. Similarly, shame for Zuko isn't about needing to be dehumanized or abused, but his feeling that he has strayed from his own values and done wrong by others. Speaking English, I think we can fall into a trap that "honor" for oneself and "honoring" others unilaterally are the same thing, and the same goes for the word "shame". Feeling that one's values have been betrayed or violated by one's own mistakes may or may not be called "shame", but it sounds right to me. The reason is that it comes with the ever-present possibility of redemption and restoration.

Zuko's journey toward recovering his own honor was about learning what he strayed from and thus what mattered to him, because it made him more alone than anyone in the world. In contrast to de Cruz, I think honor is about one's relationships to others and the values embodied in it, something that Zuko was ultimately able to restore in the end. It might not be the most original take in the world, but it makes me appreciate Zuko's arc that much more.

#zuko #aang #honor #atla #fantheory

2 notes · View notes

crimsonrose14 · 3 years

Text

Incorrect quotes dump

On day of black sun

Ozai: I watched you burn!!

Zuko: It takes more than a little fire to kill me!

(httyd2)

Sokka's Master

Katara, Aang and Toph: I wish Sokka was here

Sokka: Hey guys

Katara, Aang and Toph: Sokka!!

(Vine with the Ryan dog)

In the Jasmine Dragon

Zuko: *Loses a tea cup*

Iroh: Oh no, my good tea cup!!

Zuko: Ahh!

Iroh:

Zuko: Oh, you're not burning me

Iroh: What the-!

(Simpsons movie)

The Storm

Ozai @ Zuko in the war meeting: If you don't stop prying,

Ozai: I'll burn you

(BBC Sherlock)

Someone: Your brother was banished?

Azula: Yeah.

Azula: It's fine- I mean I've had time to adjust.

Someone: Did it happen when you were kids?

Azula: No, like half an hour ago

(Supernatural)

Zuko: I should never have gone into that war meeting

Azula: Hey come on, you went to learn about being firelord. Who knew you'd end up shaming him and disgracing your ancestors and losing all your friends?

Zuko: Maybe I didn't go for father. Maybe what I really wanted was to prove I could do things right, so when I look in the mirror, I could see someone worthwhile. But I was wrong. I see nothing.

(Mulan)

Ozai: Dishonour on you (Zuko)! Dishonor on your cow (Iroh)!

(Mulan)

Season 1

Zuko, hunting the avatar: Impossible is just another kind of possible!

(The Dragon Prince)

After the ship exploded

Iroh: You almost died! I cried for you

Zuko, confused and most def concussed: I'm honoured?

(Thor ragnarok)

Post war

Post redemption Azula

Azula: *Awkwardly trying to hug Zuko*

Zuko: Last time you tried to hug me, you shocked me : /

Azula: *Laughs* Oh yeah, good times!

Azula: *Realization*

Azula: *Clears throat* I'm deeply sorry for that incident

(Inspired by the hug scene at the end in Step Brothers)

Katara: Ready to kick some misogyny ass?

Mai and Suki: *Nods*

Top: RELEASE HELLFIRE!!!!

(Really sorry that there is a lot of zuko incorrect quotes. You can add more incorrect quotes if you want)

#avatar: the last airbender #atla #zuko #azula #aang #katara #toph #sokka #suki #iroh #ozai #incorrect quotes #mai

63 notes · View notes

smolbeifong · 3 years

Text

“My own mother thought I was a monster. She was right, of course, but it still hurt”

Given how complex of a character Azula is, I have always found amusing how well this short quote describes her personality and summarizes her arc.

“Monster”. Harsh word, but sadly pretty close to the truth. Azula is characterized as one of the show’s bad guys, and that cannot be denied. She did a lot of terrible things, from manipulation to betrayal to straight up physically harming people, and while it’s true that her upbringing played a significant role in her ending up in a particular path, it is important to acknowledge that Azula is still responsible for her acts. Trauma and lack of support provide an explanation, but not a justification.

“She was right, of course”. The most impressive part of Azula’s statement, in my opinion, is that she acknowledges that her mother’s judgement of her character is accurate. Azula is not a misguided child that thought she was doing the right thing, this quote confirms that she is fully aware of the moral implications of her actions, but chooses to do them regardless. This tells us a lot about her personality: she’s very ambitious, determined, and has an iron will, to the point that she will use any means to achieve her ends. It’s amusing, really, how she doesn’t seem to be ashamed of it. On the contrary, she seems to be proud. But how could it be any other way? Ever since she was a child, she was praised by her father for being decisive, driven and ruthless, and was encouraged to enhance those traits. That’s what gave her advantage over Zuko before her father’s eyes, and what made her mother turn away from her.

“My own mother”. Yes, because Azula and Zuko’s stories are foils, and contrast each other in many ways. Azula, the once golden child who falls and is left broken. Zuko, the once broken child who is able to rise up and become his better self. Ozai rejected Zuko and embraced Azula for the same reasons Ursa rejected Azula and embraced Zuko. Ursa played a pivotal rol in both of her children’s arcs. For Zuko, as shown in Zuko Alone, she was his moving force, alongside Iroh. For Azula, she was her downfall. In her final moments, Azula didn’t cry for Zuko, or Mai, or Ty Lee’s abandonment. No, she cried for her mother.

“It still hurt”. This are the words that represent better my feelings towards Azula. She was a cruel person that caused a lot of harm, but her story makes it difficult to me not to feel sorry for her. Ursa’s rejection of Azula hurt her deeply. And it leaves me thinking on how much this impacted on her actions throughout the show: Is her obsession with being the perfect child of Ozai a way of making up for being the disgraced Ursa’s daughter? Is her “trust is for fools” philosophy a consequence of the rejection of her own mother, the one person that was supposed to love her and support her unconditionally? Is it true that she was so affected by Mai’s betrayal because it reminded her about how Ursa also chose Zuko over her?

Judging a victim that is also a victimizer is always complex, and Azula is a very prime example of that. One can’t simply tell where the abused child ends and where the monster begins. One can’t be sure about how free Azula was when making the choices she did. ATLA did an excellent job with her character, and I bow down to them.

#azula avatar #atla azula #azula #zuko #ursa #atla ursa

7 notes · View notes

kidofthekat · 4 years

Text

Salty Outcasts - Chapter 3

Chloe

Chloé woke with a pounding headache, grabbing some paracetamol, she checked the time. 11am. Damn. She had slept her Saturday morning away. She changed into her usual outfit but without her flashy, diamond-studded belt. Another look around her room, and Chloé walked to the empty lift. The Grand Paris had lost about a third of its business since… it happened.

“Good morning Chloé.”

“Good morning Mother.”

“Chloé.” Her father didn’t even look up from his newspaper.

“Father.” What gave him the right to act like this? Mother was mean and ruthless, but she had never committed a crime. Father on the other hand, he had bribed his way into power and honestly no-one would be surprised if he were helping Hawkmoth. What gave him the right to act as if he was somehow more moral, or a better person? Chloé was seething as she sat as far from the Mayor as possible while being at the same table.

The silence was painful to all. Even Jean-whatever looked uncomfortable from the other side of the room.

Audrey Bourgeois sighed, “This is my fault.” Chloé raised an eyebrow, this was new. “Chloé, I was no mother to you, and I should have raised you better.” Andre looked like he wanted to intervene before she raised a hand to placate him. “By no means am I excusing you of your behaviour.”

“I should hope not.” Audrey gave her husband a small glare before continuing.

“But I am still at some fault. I will be a better mother to you. I promise. And darling, I’m sorry.”

Chloé nodded and opened her mouth to reply but Andre beat her to it. “Sorry? You’re sorry? Why are you sorry? She… she is a damn TERRORIST.”

“She is your daughter.” Chloé started to silently cry.

“Not anymore.” Andre got up from the table not sparing a glance at the younger blonde and only nodding at his wife as he made his way up to his office.

Sobbing, Chloé ran out the hotel’s double doors leaving Audrey to wonder what the hell had happened to her already dysfunctional family.

Alix skated past the Couffaine houseboat, second guessing the absolute trust she had put in her future self. ‘Go to the Seine.’ Alix scoffed. ‘To quote Uncle Iroh, sometimes the best way to solve your problems is to help someone else.’ She had been happy violently spray painting while beating herself up about not standing up for Marinette sooner, but no, future!Me just had to give me advice, who am I meant to be helping anyway?

She almost scoffed again before realising she was starting to sound a lot like a certain blonde heiress, who she was sitting by the Seine? On the ground? Well something must be wrong.

“Yo, Chloé, what’s up?

“Go away, Kubdel. Don’t you have hair to dye and skates to ugh I don’t know”

“Well someone’s off her game today, want to talk about it?”

“I don’t need your pity, Kubdel.”

“I don’t pity you Chloé, and I never will. You have made too many mistakes and hurt too may of the people I care about for me to find it in myself to pity you. But, I’m not heartless. You are in pain and so I am going to help, so I’ll ask you one more time, do you want to talk about it?” Alix’s tone was harsh and unforgiving, snapping the disgraced hero out of her thoughts.

Nodding, Chloé waited for Alix to sit beside her. “My father said I wasn’t his daughter anymore.”

“Woah, that, that is bad.” At Chloé’s muffled sob, she clarified, “I meant bad parenting, every kid makes mistakes, some bigger then others, but either war he should be there for you and help you grow not turn you away the second you put a mark on his perfect reputation.”

Chloé snickered, “Oh trust me, his reputation is far from perfect.”

“Really?”

“Yeah, but people at least think he’s a good guy even if he is as corrupt as Hawkmoth,” Alix raised an eyebrow at this assessment, few people would compare their father to Paris’ emotional terrorist. “I, on the other hand, am trying to do good for once in my life and everyone still sees me as a villain.”

“No-one sees you as a villain, just a bratty rich kid.” Alix’s joke fell flat as Chloé got to her feet and stared at the skater, face red with fury.

“My father called me a terrorist.” Her voice was deadly, but low enough to avoid drawing in any onlookers. It took Alix a few seconds to overcome the shock that any father would say something like that. Try as she might, she couldn’t imagine her old man even thinking such a thing.

“I’m sorry,” She whispered.

“I mean is it even worth it?”

“Yes! Yes it is.” Alix stood up, placing a hand on Chloé’s shoulder, her eyes were filled with fury, though none of it was directed at the blonde.

A bike bell sounded behind her breaking Alix’s intense glare and saving Chloé from burning under it. Turning around, the two girls saw a teal-tipped boy cycle towards them.

Luka smiled, immediately calming them down, skipping normal greetings to give Chloé a side hug and some advice.

“To quote uncle Iroh,” Alix frowned at that, again? Seriously? Yes, he is one inspirational guy, but two people in one morning? “It’s time for you to look inward, and begin asking yourself the big questions: who are you? And what do you want?”

“I, I don’t know.”

“That’s alright, you don’t have to know just yet.” Luka smiled again. “I’m guessing you both skipped breakfast this morning.” He took their silence as a yes, “Let’s go to Marinette’s bakery, they have great croissants.”

“Sure you don’t just wanna see Marinette?” Alix nudged Luka, who instantly went a shade of red that rivalled Ladybug’s suit.

“Maybe.” The girls laughed a little, dragging the blushing boy behind them as they set out to the bakery.

Thank you @flufflepuffle296 for proof reading! Also thank you readers for reading!

Masterpost

Tag list:

@kanamexzeroyaoifangirl @lilkymilky @mythogaychic @aestheticnpoetic

#miraculous ladybug #mlb #chloe bourgeois #alix kubdel

36 notes · View notes

dedicatedfollower467 · 7 years

Note

avatar the last airbender and avatar legend of korra

yessss

ATLAFavorite Male CharacterZUKOFavorite Female CharacterToph but Katara is a vvvvvery close runner-up.Least Favorite CharacterOZAI IS SCUM OZAI IS SHIT OZAI DESERVES DEATH DISHONOR AND DISGRACEFavorite ShipSokka/Zuko HELL YEAH.Favorite Friendshipoh many this is another hard one but i’m really in love with aang + zuko atm.Favorite Quote“I’m so sorry uncle.” Honestly I can’t remember the exact words but the WHOLE SCENE WHERE ZUKO RECONCILES WITH IROH IS SO GOOD.Worst Character Death (if any)mmmm there aren’t a whole lot of character deaths? I guess Jet?This made me so happy you have no idea MomentZUKO STANDING UP TO OZAI IS ONE OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL MOMENTS IN THE WHOLE SERIES AND I LOVE IT.Saddest Momentthat’s gotta be when zuko betrays iroh. it just hurts me so much.Favorite LocationHmmmm……. honestly probably the Fire Palace that’s cool.

LOK (keeping in mind I STILL haven’t watch season 4….)Favorite Male Characterprooooobably Bolin it’s been a while but I liked him a lot.Favorite Female CharacterASAMI.Least Favorite Characterwhat were the names of those twin assholes from the northern water tribe…. i hated them so much.

ALSO WHAT’S HIS SHIT VARRIC OR WHATEVER HIS NAME WAS WHAT AN ANNOYING BASTARD.Favorite ShipKORRASAMI YO!!!!Favorite Friendship….. honestly i don’t remember a lot of the other relationships in LOK, so it’s just gonna have to be korrasami again lol.

NO WAIT I REALLY LIKE ZUKO AND KORRA THAT WAS GREAT.Favorite Quoteit’s been so long and there’s not many memorable quotes…. what was the thing zuko said in the elevator down to evil prison…… something about capturing the avatar…. it was pretty funny.Worst Character Death (if any)I don’t even remember if anyone died. I mean, Sokka’s off-screen character death meaning he WASN’T EVEN BARELY IN THE SHOW AT *ALL* was OBVIOUSLY the worst.This made me so happy you have no idea Momenti haven’t even seen it but you KNOW it’s gonna be the korrasami finaleI also kinda loved the finale of Season 3 it was awesome.Saddest MomentTbqh i don’t remember? or even really like…. care?Favorite LocationI don’t really have one? sad.

#def answers asks #answered #a:tla #avatar the last airbender #legend of korra #lok

1 note · View note