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jackoshadows · 11 months

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Don’t know if someone already asked that question so here it goes: what’s your opinion on Ned Stark? I think the fandom is too harsh on him

He's fine. I like him as the character who starts off and sets up the story for our actual protagonists. I like that he's flawed and has his own kind of morality and ideas of right and wrong, as fitting the fictional fantasy world he lives in.

I do think the fandom is too harsh in the sense of how he's reduced to this honorable fool. This interpretation of him (wrong, IMO) is so popular in fandom that it made it's way to the garbage show through D&D/Bryan Cogman adapting popular tumblr metas rather than actually reading the books and translating that to the screen. They wrote actual dialogue for Sansa 'Smart' where she warns Jon to not be stupid like Ned and Robb!!

This is one of the many reasons for why the show and the books are so canonically different. Benioff and Weiss think the likes of Littlefinger should rule the world and hence why they wrote dialogue for Littlefinger 2.0 aka Sansa stark where she disparages Ned Stark as stupid. In the books on the other hand, Ned inspires loyalty and brotherhood, with his bannerman rising up for Arya and Rickon Stark, while all the Lannisters can inspire is fear and hatred.

As GRRM himself explains:

It’s not enough to be a good man to be an effective ruler. It’s complicated and it’s hard and I wanted to show that with repeated examples in my books with my kings and hand of the kings - the prime minister if you would - trying to rule. And whether it be Ned Stark or Tyrion Lannister or Tywin Lannister or Daenerys Targaryen or Cersei Lannister trying to deal with the real challenges that affect anyone trying to rule the 7K or even a city like Meereen and it’s hard. You know, we can all read the books or read history and say oh, so and so was stupid and made a lot of mistakes and look at all these stupid mistakes they make. But these kind of mistakes are always much more apparent in hind sight than when you are actually faced with the decision about, oh my God, what would I do in this situation. How do I resolve this thing? Do I do the moral thing? But what about the political consequences of the moral thing? Do I do the pragmatic, cynical thing and kind of screw the people who are screwed by it? I mean, it is HARD. And I want to get to all of that - GRRM

Ned had very few allies and people he could trust in KL. It was a viper's nest and as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts Jon Arryn leaves behind an absolute mess with the likes of the Lannisters, Littlefinger and Slynt holding too much power. There was not much maneuvering that Ned could do in the situation he found himself.

I like that he is flawed with his blindspots for Robert Baratheon that clashes with his morality. I like that children are his weakness - that he was ready to resign when Robert wanted to send assassins to murder Dany, that he tried to save Jaime's children while Jaime tried to kill his.

All in all, I think it's harder to be a 'good' man in Westeros than it is to be a bad one. I have read opinions on how the likes of Ned and Jon are boring because they are 'good' while everyone loves the hot bad boys like Jaime Lannister because he's just so 'complex'. I couldn't disagree more. Jaime attempts to murder the likes of Bran and Arya for Cersei and it's a simple enough decision for the likes of him in a Westeros that lets him get away doing this with no consequences. Ned Stark warns Cersei because he does not want to see her children suffer the same fate as Elia's children - and dooms his family and house.

When Westeros exemplifies the idea of 'No good deed goes unpunished', it's harder to do the morally right thing and I am doubly appreciative of characters who still do it. Daenerys trying to help the oppressed of Meereen simply because it's the right thing to do, Arya helping the prisoners in the cage or Weasel or sticking up for Mycah, Jon fighting against the centuries of hatred and xenophobia at the wall in his reform of the Wall.

So yeah, I like Ned Stark. He's an interesting, complex character and I can't wait to know more about him with Howland Reed's revelations of Robert's Rebellion and the Tower of Joy and what actually happened and how Jon Snow deals with the truth and reexamines his relationship with his 'father' and Arya holding on so strongly to her father's ideals, leadership and this image she has of him and how she is going to use his words, adapt and change that to lead the North.

#asks #Ned Stark

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snowsandstones · 2 years

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bryan cogman has long been the only objective good writer on that show that everyone acknowledges understands the books the best. and the episode he wrote (KOT7K) tells you everything you need to know about how to interpret the rest of that season

#jonsa

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thelustybraavosimaid · 10 months

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Bryan Cogman, second only to D&D in stupidity, says Jon finding out his parentage means he was never meant to be King and that he was meant to just go Beyond the Wall like Ygritte wanted. Those idiots didn’t understand Jon’s character in the slightest. I’m partially really really really hoping (only partially because most important is they all survive) that Jon and Dany become King and Queen in the books because it would prove once and for all that those idiots didn’t understand the story George was telling in the slightest. There’s still idiots who think the books will have the same ending as the show

Paul Haas, the fantasy author’s representative, had this to say when asked about the destination of the as-yet-incomplete book series:

George loves Dan and Dave, but after season 5 he did start to worry about the path they were [going down] because George knows where the story goes. He started saying, ‘You’re not following my template’. The first 5 seasons stuck to George’s roadmap. Then they went off George’s roadmap.

[Source]

In the early seasons, Martin wrote and read scripts, consulted on casting decisions and visited sets. Over time, however, as he stepped back to focus on his long-delayed next ‘Thrones’ novel, ‘The Winds of Winter,’ Martin grew estranged from the show.

“By Season 5 and 6, and certainly 7 and 8, I was pretty much out of the loop,” Martin said of his involvement with “Game of Thrones.” Asked why he grew estranged from the show, Martin did not cite his work on “The Winds of Winter” and instead said, “I don’t know — you have to ask Dan and David.”

[Literally nothing else to say here.]

#asoiaf #please refrain from asking me show questions in the future #i do not care about the show anymore

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esther-dot · 2 years

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unpopular opinion maybe (?) but i don't think most people actually hated the ending of got because it was badly done or badly written. the show had been sloppy for years before the finale and most of us were still enjoying it, so i don't think it was really about that. i think we all tell ourselves we hated it because of that, but most of us probably wouldn't have minded it if only we'd gotten our preferred ending. d*ny fans would have been over the moon if they'd gotten an ending with her on the iron throne and jon as her devoted consort, regardless of how badly written, directed, and acted it was. sansa fans would have been equally over the moon if we'd not only gotten qitn but also sansa in a loving relationship with our preferred suitor, whomever that might be, quality of the writing be damned. arya fans would have been beside themselves with joy if they'd gotten their "queen arya with gendry as her lover" preferred ending, no matter how stupidly it was done. and so on and so forth, for fans of every character. the terrible writing certainly didn't help matters, but in my opinion the show's real failure was that it managed to leave literally EVERYONE unhappy and unsatisfied, and feeling that their fave had been cheated in some way.

Well, it’s kinda true for me! I was mocking D&D’s horrible choices and criticizing the show all season eight as I watched it, but if I had gotten Jonsa in the finale I would have definitely posted a “I have never said anything bad about D&D in my life” joke. 😂

This is why, even though I will never watch it again and I won’t watch the spin-offs, I’m not gonna pretend I stopped liking the show back in s5. There was a lot of “y’all thought the ending would be good? The show’s sucked since s4” stuff going around when we were all disappointed with the finale, but middles are hard! Lots of stories struggle there, and I was still caught up in what was happening and wondering where it would end until s7 just…made no sense to me. I was a show fan first so I wasn’t upset about their deviations from the books because I didn’t know about them at the time. I was still enjoying the show through s6. Honestly, s6 was a highpoint for me. Sansa and Jon reuniting, Sansa using LF, reclaiming Winterfell, Sansa finally being safe and happy, Jon becoming king….I understand hating the Ramsay plotline, being upset about Dorne etc, but as a Stark fan, a Sansa and a Jon fan, season six was very rewarding.

It wasn’t until after s7 aired that I started listening to Martin interviews/read the books, and at that point I learned that a) Martin has known the ending for the main characters for years, b) he told D&D, c) he expected the endings would be similar. So, I assumed that D&D had a plan and were working towards his ending and weren’t gonna just… plop his ending on whatever the hell it was they were doing without making it make sense. Silly me 😂

Thinking back though, I didn’t actually need Jonsa to be ok with the ending. The main complaint for most of us is how they wrote Jon. If they confirmed that Jon bent the knee because he had to and was afraid of Dany/trying to manage her the whole time, that he wasn’t disloyal to the North/his family and lying to cover his own ass, I could have eventually reconciled myself to the ending because there are a lot of ideas it’s touching on. I think that’s why I didn’t just drop the show/fandom completely after the show ended because there are so many things that I think one good kick would have allowed the whole thing to shift and settle into stuff from earlier seasons and things from the books and would have, as much as we wouldn’t want it to, worked. Instead it felt like D&D were waging a war of retribution on the fans and just wanted to destroy all the relationships they could. They really should have let Bryan Cogman have more sway in the final season or rewrite their finale script or something. You could feel the love in his episode, D&D’s felt intentionally cruel.

I agree with you though that no vocal part of the fandom (Jon fans, Dany fans, Arya fans…) getting what they wanted, none of the big ships (Jonerys, Jonsa, Gendrya, Braime…) getting a good ending, that’s why the show was so decried by fans and so hated. There was nothing truly redeeming in the ending on an emotional level/for the characters and their relationships, so even for someone like me, a Sansa fan, a character who got the best ending and “won” in a way none of the other characters did, it felt very empty. But, I have to say, I’ve seen a number of fans who are happy with the ending. Some people really liked the fact that the ending was so different from traditional fantasy. They appreciated Jon going beyond the Wall because they didn’t want him or Dany to rule. And with the success of HOTD and fans returning to GOT (indicated by the rewatch numbers on HBO Max), maybe there are a lot more of those fans than I realized.

#ask dot #< tag to filter

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kellyvela · 3 months

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the way he is liking and replying all the j word tweets . . . .

#sophie turner #kit harington #sansa stark #jon snow #jonsa #bryan cogman #the j word agenda is thriving #lol

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what-do-1000-swords-look-like · 2 years

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Omg ok so much good stuff to discuss in your amazing response!! First off, thank you for the analysis, you picked up on so many subtle implications I missed. 1. What happens when they demand you press your claim and take what is mine?” Confirmation: Dany always knew Jon wasn’t in love with her. If she thought he was, she wouldn’t have thought this. And suspected/knew he may be manipulating her. 2. I think she kinda began looking for a reason to justify executing Jon. As you point out she

Hey, Anon! Thank you so much for the compliment!!! =D You are truly too kind. =) And omg, I am so sorry this took me so long to reply to!!!

1) Oooo, yes, I think Dany suspected it all along tbh, but I think she hoped that a) her manipulation would supersede his & b) he would love her the way she wanted him to and that love (and belief/devotion) would come first. I think that's really why she had such an issue with Sansa rather than Arya or Bran (besides the obvious love people had for Sansa in the North). Not only was Jon not willing to "hurt" his family for her, especially Sansa, but also it was obvious he still valued Sansa's opinion (that she could see to an extent) and was a rival for him (I'm not even talking romantically at this point, though that's obviously still very much a thing as well with the whole love triangle).

I have this whole meta on how Jon and Sansa were also two sides of the same coin (I swear, I will get around to finishing these metas sometime soon, I promise lol) and Sansa was very much a threat to Dany but not only because of her being a Queen the people would love or because she didn't want Dany on the IT or because she wouldn't bend the knee or because she loved Jon as well. I truly believe Sansa represented Jon for Dany in a way, the part of him that couldn't be tamed or controlled or manipulated. She was his Stark side, the side Dany very much wanted to crush and dominate, and get under her rule. Jon and Sansa have way too many parallels that not only complement one another but also show had they joined forces/come together as one, that was the power couple that would have been difficult to defeat, dragons or no dragons. And it's only begun to be hinted at in 6x09.

So it's no surprise to me that Bryan Cogman (who seemed to have a pretty good grasp on Sansa's character and her true motives) wrote that line into the scene between her and Dany in 8x02. "Tell me, who manipulated whom?" This line not only confirms that Dany knew that Jon was manipulating her but she is actually using Sansa's very tactic that she used with Jon in 6x04 to get him to listen, that Jon has been using with Dany herself and Dany has been using with him (once she learned it from Jon; she hugs Jorah at their reunion in 7x05 but later on in the episode puts her hands in his when saying goodbye to him; grabbing Jon's hand in 8x04 while "begging" him):

And Sansa knows what's happening, what Dany is trying to accomplish here. Which is exactly why once Dany pulls her hand away, Sansa waits until Dany is focused on the Maester and then pulls her hands away, sitting upright. And in this moment, Sansa is currently Lady of Winterfell, which is one notch under Warden of the North (but the same positions Cat and Ned were in until Ned became Hand), but before Dany showed up she was Regent (in Jon's absence, even after he bent the knee, she still ran things until he and Dany arrived). Not only is it all connected, but this confirms that Dany knows she's being manipulated by Jon but she loves him (and wants to dominate him/the North), and she is very familiar with manipulation herself and utilizes it often.

And she has quite a bit before this moment, from the Unsullied and slaves in Mereen to Missandei to Tyrion to Jorah to Jon. And later on, she even manipulates Grey Worm (in 8x05). Sorry, I got kind of carried away here lol but I mean to say I completely agree with your point!

And absolutely, completely agreed! Dany never trusted Jon, not completely. I think she started to because she expected him to fall in line with the rest. I think her guard even started to come down slightly after she has that conversation with Tyrion where the latter suggests Jon is in love with her. Some might think she softened to him because she didn't want him to leave, and then tries flirting with him, but that's not the case. It's only after Tyrion says this and we see her go to rescue Jon and Co and she sees Jon's wound, that we see her then soften towards him. So I think you're 100% right, she knew Jon wasn't completely in love with her and she never fully trusted him, which is why she was always willing to believe the worst about Jon, like when we see her go from 0 to 60 in 8x05 when Tyrion talks about Varys. She's not willing to dismiss the notion that Jon has betrayed her. So, yes, Anon, brilliant!!!

2) Exactly!!! I don't think she had a specific point in time picked out or the execution planned out to the nth degree, but she absolutely was on her way there. It was continuously escalating, even to the point where other people in the show saw it and would warn him. That is why I will never understand why some still buy the PR bs that the show espoused for the last season, and that some Dany stans/Jonerys shippers still think that had "bad writing" not come into play, that the Targaryen dynasty would have been restored through J/D. That they believed Jon would have survived if Dany's death never happened, and they would have ruled the 7K happily together. Yet they missed all the major red flags indicating the escalating tension between the two and how it was about to be Dance of the Dragons all over again. Hopefully, now if they're watching HotD and they're watching this same tension build and escalate in that show between those two factions of Targaryens, they get it a bit more. Probably not, but I'm still hopeful. ;-)

3) This! Agreed, I think she hasn't truly conquered Jon and she knows that, which is why she keeps trying. And it's exactly why she continues to try to drive a wedge between him and Sansa. Sansa is a threat not only because of what she represents for Dany (Dany as a ruler/conqueror I mean) but also because of what she represents for Jon. Which I'm willing to bet is why they have the whole parallel of Tyrion and Jaime for Dany: 7x04: "Your family you mean. Perhaps you don't want to hurt them after all", 8x02: "Perhaps he trusts his little brother to defend him, right up to the moment he slits my throat", 8x04: after she hears Jon being complimented by Tormund, she then focuses on Tyrion laughing with Jaime (and then sees Jon's back to her again while Tormund continues his praises & Jon is surrounded by people), 8x04: seeing that Cersei will not kill him (not that this has to do with Jaime per se but goes back to that whole Dany can't come between the family thing), 8x05: "Your brother was stopped trying to get past our lines. It seems he hasn't abandoned your sister after all. The next time you fail me will be the last time you fail me", and 8x06: "You freed your brother. You committed treason." I mean, it's all right there. Jon and Tyrion had already been two sides of a coin so to speak when it came to Dany and their love for her. But now they're also running a contrasted parallel (is that a word?) alongside each other when it came to their loyalty and devotion when it came to her and her response to it. I dare say I think Tyrion and Jon frustrated her more at times than Cersei and Sansa themselves. Which then goes back to that weird parallel the two guys have. It also makes me think this is part of the reason why Jorah was no longer around (besides contributing to the endgame for Dany). So my whole long point (sorry, I'm talking too much today lol) is I definitely agree with you. I think Jon was more of a problem for her than Sansa was, in her mind, because of what Sansa represented for Jon.

4) Yes!!!! I think he chose to do that because he felt it was the right thing to do but also so Sansa and Arya would know the truth, for so many reasons. I think he absolutely wanted to end the intimacy between them and like you said, Dany was then unable to reassert the power dynamic between them, and that frustrated her beyond measure. Which is definitely why she reacts the way she does in that 8x04 bedroom scene when he moves away, and then brings up how he was looked at by everyone. I think he was more disgusted with who she was than by the family connection. That's the thing I think a lot of Jonsa antis/Jonerys stans don't get: it's on record that family marriages did sometimes take place in the history of the North. I believe (and I can't remember the names) that there was even an uncle who married his niece at one point. In today's society, yes, gross. But back in the medieval days, this was more easily accepted and par for the course. As it was that two different houses would marry/unite for a political alliance (like Rhaegar with Elia). So while the type of incest between Jaime and Cersei was looked down upon in Westeros post-Targaryen era, some form of incest has always been around Westeros pre-conquering and post-conquering. Cousin-cousin marriages for example were not unheard of. So, I'm not saying that Jon was completely comfortable with sleeping with his aunt, but it's not that he never heard of it, especially with the Targaryen history. And if she conquered KL again, there was no way that the Targaryen incestry wouldn't be re-established at some point.

I agree, I think he's very turned off by who she is. That's also another thing the Jonerys stans don't get, this romance with a character like Dany's goes against Jon's very character. Especially, when you compare Dany to Ygritte for his romantic history. Ygritte was literally fighting against what Dany represented; she never wanted to bend the knee to any ruler/faction. So how could Jon fall for someone like Ygritte whom he clearly loved, but then fall again for the very person that was her antithesis? It makes no sense. How would that be character development for Jon at all? No sense. So I think you're right in that he was looking to end the physical intimacy between them, but I also think he was trying to do it smartly and not outright reject her and draw her ire. Which is why I think the 8x04 bedroom scene starts to happen until Jon pulls away, and then in the 8x05 fireplace scene, it's clearly in the context of fear which is exactly what Dany sees herself. And based on what you mentioned, then that would explain Jon's little half-smile on the beach when Varys approaches him in 8x05, not just exasperation or 'typical Sansa'. As a matter of fact, I don't think Jon was angry that Sansa told his secret, not until he had to kill Dany to protect her. I think he figured 'typical' aka that familiar affectionate exasperation which then turned into fear once he saw what happened to Varys and heard Dany's threat towards Sansa, then anger when Tyrion (and Arya) basically tell him that Sansa won't have a chance if Dany survives. And I don't think he didn't want to kill her because he loved her, I think he didn't want to because she was family to him in a way and he never wanted to kill a woman (which we saw happen twice, with Ygritte [before he fell for her] and then Melisandre [someone he didn't love]).

So yes, I agree, I think he was hoping to end the physical relationship between them and transition it into a family bond instead, just like you said. I think this is especially reaffirmed when Jon points out to Tyrion that the latter has been counseling her in that 8x06 jail cell scene. To me, that sounded extremely protective but in a familial way. I never got romantic vibes from it. So I completely agree!!!

5) Awww thank you!!! 🤗 That is interesting. I have heard that about the books, that Jon was going to rescue the Gray Lady I think it was, that he thought Arya was captured by Ramsay but it's actually Jeyne Poole, I think? To be fair, I haven't gotten to that point in the books, I should though. (I really need to set aside some time to finish them) I didn't realize that was why he was murdered, though. How horrible! I mean, yeah okay, it's horrible any way you look at it, but with the Wildling thing in the show, I kind of got it in a way. But because he went to go save his sister? Yikes. That would have been interesting to see play out on screen, though. Yes, yes, yes!!!! Always for the Starks!!!! ;-)

About Jonsa, that's an interesting take. I do think part of the reason the Jonerys romance happened is half what you mentioned, to keep Dany's dark turn hidden (and subvert expectations, D&D's catchphrase), but also part because the "dance of dragons" had to happen (in place of the I think Aegon story line in the books, I think I read something about Aegon somewhere, don't quote me on this though) and Dany and Jon were two sides of the same coin in the show. Jon and Sansa are, too, but in a different way if that makes sense. Their sides complement one another, whereas Dany's and Jon's did not.

I also think that they whittled it down to this (meaning the way it all unfolded in the end of the show) because of that coin, meaning Jon was going to be the hero and Dany was going to be the final boss. But of course they were going to reach those destinations in a very grey way, just like GRRM made his characters to be.

And like you said, they couldn't confirm that Jon was in love with someone else because it would have disputed the whole Jonerys romance thing, which then would have led to "why are they doing this then?" which would have eventually led to possibly revealing too much too soon. While we know that the hints were always there since season 1 that Dany would turn dark, the GA didn't pay attention and no one saw the KL massacre coming. Well, not that particular scenario I should say, since we knew there was always going to be a choice that she made that she wouldn't be able to come back from. And I think that was what they mostly wanted to keep hidden as well, what she does to KL and the massacre of one million innocent people, including burning alive children. So, I absolutely agree with you about them needing Jonsa to be implied but not explicitly confirmed. I think it also helped (in D&D's minds) to keep the decision Jon would have to make in the dark as well. Again, we all saw the buildup and the writing on the wall, but I think for the GA, the show purposely kept it as ambiguous as possible until the end.

I think it's also very telling (and reiterates your point) that one scene from the documentary, where Bryan reads the part where Jon kills Dany and we see Kit's reaction: "She kisses him...it's the perfect kiss...she looks up at the man she loves..." Never once do we hear (even though the show was over at this point & HBO purposely didn't air it until after it was over so as not to spoil anything) about Jon kissing her, Jon looking down at the woman he loves. And if Jonerys was full-on and not one-sided, then why not show us that part? Why did D&D emphasize only Dany's POV in those lines?

Why...

Why not show us the forehead touch? Why pull back on the frame for this one shot?

Which is exactly what they did with the 7x06 scene where Jon allegedly starts to have feelings for her?

We know why. ;-) So yes, Anon, I absolutely agree with you that they couldn't let Jonsa be explicit which is why I think they worked to confirm it in several other ways that would show again during rewatch after the things they worked to keep hidden had been revealed (minus Jon's big reveal aka pol!Jon since they changed that in the eleventh hour, I'm thinking it was most likely a mixture of Emilia and HBO that was the catalyst for this last minute change).

Oh and not to mention that had Jon killed Dany if they made Jonsa explicit, they would chalk that decision up to him choosing one romance over the other, when it wasn't just about that. That decision held way more importance to Jon's arc and Sansa's arc separately and together as characters than it did romantically. The romance would have just been the icing on the top. But had they made it solely about which woman he chose, it would have negated many things for Jon and Sansa themselves, I think.

I'm so sorry, Anon. I got so wordy and rambled a bit here lol, and I do apologize for my delay in responding to you. Thank you so much for the asks!!! I love discussing GoT and especially this area, so thank you! I hope you have a wonderful week!!! <3

#ask #ask answered #got #game of thrones #jonsa #jon x sansa #antijonerys #anti jonerys #daenerys critical #putting that tag to be safe

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