#as a teen i had some creepy interactions with adults online | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

sasunarulesbian · 2 years

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maybe no one will see this and all the better! i’m just trying to sort out my thoughts on a bunch of different kpop matters that keep circulating on twitter that make me feel icky i can’t explain it more than that. this is going to be long, so i’ll add more under the cut.

basically, there’s talk of “no minors in kpop” and i find that sooo strange. there’s this recent push to stop allowing children, tweens, and teens to participle in any sort of media or receive fame because of what happened to x, y, z child stars and because of pedos. it’s such a weird place to come from, and i’m noting it’s from ppl just entering their early 20s and leaving their teen years behind, which to me is just this age group trying to cope with the loss of childhood in the middle of a pandemic and not knowing where to start into adulthood or how to navigate adulthood and interacting with ppl younger than them. this is an assumption based on my experience during this phase, because even at 21 years old trying a dating app for the first time (and hating it, probably because of the neurodivergency) i knew i didn’t want to date 18 or 19 year olds. and at 23, when i got into kpop, i had similar feelings about getting into loona, who had members who were all younger than me, three of them minors at the time, and three more who were just 18 when i started becoming obsessed with their music and their lore.

back to the main point, it seems these ppl are projecting their transitional feelings onto everyone else, and using this as some sort of moral code to protect minors from the horrors of the world, horrors that no one is doing anything to destroy and would rather abolish children’s roles in any kind of media. to me, there will always be a place for children in media, especially for other children and to deprive children of content featuring ppl of their own ages is crazy to me. this shift in thinking is so fucking dangerous because it’s all or nothing thinking without any action plans or reasoning. there’s nothing substantial to these claims besides “protecting children.” protecting children by hiding them away? it doesn’t make sense especially because the “protection” they’re mainly talking about is from pedos.

to me, this sounds like the same logic as telling a girl to change her clothing so boys don’t objectify her. you can’t stop pedos just by removing one part of their “access,” you have to attack these disgusting humans at the root, and remove the problem at its source. you can’t just punish children who want to achieve their dreams because of the nastiness of these abhorrent creatures. to me, it feels like we’re going backwards instead of addressing the root of the issue, and that’s dealing with pedos, increasing sentencing for child abuse and child exploitation, and trying to find ways to protect children WHILE allowing children TO BE CHILDREN, to be normal, to enjoy things they’re allowed to enjoy, and to allow them to have agency to follow their dreams.

we JUST had a talk across online spaces about how damaging it was for us as youths to watch adults play teens, feeling inadequate about our bodies, etc. and wanting to give teen actors their big break, and then limiting the amount of sex scenes in shows and movies involving ppl supposed to be of high school age. yet here we are, suddenly no children should be allowed in media? no minors?

now where does this land in the world of kpop? the kpop idol industry is notorious for debuting young ppl around 14 - 16 years old. what i don’t like about this discussion is that it’s heavily sexist and only focused on protecting the girls in this situation, no outcry for the boys or anything. all the agruments have to do with creepy male pedos and protecting innocent girls. ppl will say “we care about the boys, too!” but then have no reasoning for what they need to do to protect boys, because their sole reasoning is clothing that these girls wear are too revealing and bait pedos or the dances are not appropriate to their age and allow pedos to sexualize them and i think we can all see the problem with this line of reasoning-- it blames the victim. the catch all phrase “no minors in kpop” becomes easier then, because they don’t have to explain and realize that their entire argument is extremely sexist and relies on old misogyny recycled from rape culture.

we have some ppl stating “think of their mental health being famous so young.” and to that i have to dispute, because while yes, it could take a toll on their mental health, i’m sure a majority of these teens understand on some level what they’re getting into, and at least they have the support of older members to look after them in most cases, plus need parent/guardian permission for a lot of things in general. an example of this is yeojin from loona who debuted at 14, she wasn’t doing well in school, and she was not allowed to participate in debuting in a unit as per her parents’ request (hopefully i have this correct because i read this a long time ago).

i will contend that it is worrisome that there is a lot of staff around them all the time, and a majority of these ppl are producing the group, giving them the music, concepts, and choreo, styling them, etc, and that could be problematic. yet there is that line of whether or not the group has the say in the styling or concepts, etc. this part of the discussion is definitely up for more in depth looks, as all companies operate differently, so we can’t know for sure the exact behind the scenes for every group. i think this is the most problematic part of minors debuting, however i don’t believe this will stop young ppl with talent, ambitions and dreams from becoming trainees.

another reason why this is bothersome is because half of these ppl discussing this are westerners, mainly americans who are pointing their fingers at south korea when a wholeass state (florida) has NO CHILD LABOR LAWS which is why many film/show makers choose to film there. there is a lot of problems with the US film industry and children based on labor laws and child abuse and exploitation, so maybe because these things are being revealed heavily at the moment in america, ppl are pointing to south korea for something similar or even worse. south korea has a limit on how many hours children 15 and under are allowed to work, and has a specific curfew for all minors under 18. i saw SO MANY TWEETS when this was first a topic of discussion from ignorant ass westerners (again, mainly americans) saying shit like “i don’t know if they even have labor laws.” it’s easily googleable. you can google “south korean child labor laws” and the first FIRST article that pops up specfically addresses a new law enacted in 2015 (when idol groups were really starting to ramp up) for idols who are minors. again, it’s hard to say what happens behind the scenes in the idol industry, but again, these are mainly westerners making a fuss without attempting to bridge the gap to korean citizens to have a discussion about this. korean citizens are the only ones who can make waves in their own county regarding this issue.

yes, i do find it extremely creepy that there are men who stan girl groups filled with minors and that has been a problem for a long time, but the problem isn’t solved by shoving minors away and out of the spotlight. disgusting freaks will always exist, and it doesn’t get rid of them! we’re punishing ppl for following their dreams (again, more the girls than the boys which is sexist) and not doing anything about creepy pedos existing. the idea is to shame pedos out of spaces they do not belong, not shame these girls who are dressing normally for teens their age. not to pay particular attention to their clothing or their dancing, because south korean boys and girls deserve to have idols their age to look up to as well. because these creepy ass ppl will sexualize anything and everything that moves, regardless of clothing worn.

it’s like this: it’s no way to live on edge constantly that you can’t be free and go about your life without someone looking at you in sexual light. it’s no way to live to be hyper aware of everyone around you, worried someone is leering at you.

my main problem is that this whole situation has morphed into many of these ppl unintentionally oversexualizing everything and seeing casual listeners or casual fans who know the members and want to casually support the group by buying their albums here and there as weirdos who shouldn’t be doing that if they are of a certain age. there is nothing inherently sexual about listening to music or about learning members names, or buying an album to monetarily support the group you like. i saw “why are you as a 20+ year old owning photocards of minors” and was so confused. there is nothing inherently sexual about buying an album!! there is nothing sexual about owning randomized photocards pulled from said album!! an example of this is le sserafim, who has one minor in their group. i LOVE this group, and many former wiz*ones began to like the group because 2 former iz*one members are in this group. if i buy an album and happen to pull eunchae, the only minor, does that make me weird? why would that make me weird?

billlie is another group i love that has 2 minors in the group and because they’re a much lesser-known group, i have bought their albums to support them and give them more success, and i have pulled photocards of those minors. why would that be weird? it’s a random photocard. i’m not solely being obsessed with said minors and constantly trying to collect their pcs, i’m buying albums to support them and enjoying whatever pcs i get. i’m enjoying their music and loving their lore and content, and wishing them success so they can continue to make more music.

as someone who got into kpop during 4th gen (2018), i tried to become invested in other 3rd gen groups, but i’m only super obsessed with bts and had the hyperfixation ability to digest their 5 years of content. i also like red velvet and twice, but because i got into them super late and wasn’t as interested in stanning them, it felt like a burden to catch up with all of their content, and as a result felt less connected with them, though i do buy their albums and love their new music. it was easier for me to connect to recently debuted groups, which is why i ended up becoming attached to loona, then eventually billlie and le sserafim.

it’s so odd to me that ppl think 20+ ppl are enjoying kpop with their genitals or something. it’s actively wearing on me in a sense because i feel like i’m one step away from being attacked on twitter, but also just attacked in general/irl for my interests, and it’s really REALLY hard for me to deal with that. i’ve always been too intense about interests, and i’m sure it’s because i’ve lived with undiagnosed autism/adhd or both. i’m basically either hyperfixated on kpop or it’s my special interest at this point. i’ve been so fucking depressed and kpop is the only thing that has gotten me through this rough summer (i took a whole month off work bc of my mental health). regardless, the point is, i’m sure there’s many others who are feeling similarly, like they can’t enjoy their interest without feeling ousted by younger ppl or feeling like we’re one step away from being dogpiled for just existing as an adult with a hobby that just happens to be kpop.

i do think this is also very touchy for me because i am someone who experienced sexual harassment as a child (from another child on separate occasions/ages) and feel disgusted that my special interest, kpop, is being looked at this horrific light when all i want to do (and i imagine many others who love kpop want to do) is enjoy music, enjoy cool music videos, enjoy cool backstories if the group has their own universe, learn fun dances, and have fun. it’s very triggering to constantly see this kind of discussion about who’s a weirdo, who’s a pedo, etc.

i do think these ppl are of the generation who have been exposed to sexual content far too young and tend to look at things in more of a sexual light than normal. it could also be these ppl’s intrusive thoughts that they’re not realizing are intrusive sexual thoughts, and are projecting such onto twitter (which is awful because before managing my anxiety, i used to get unwanted sexual intrustive thoughts OFTEN and it made me feel super disgusted with myself and this is just lowkey triggering that back).

the end of this is just kinda my thoughts on everything and how it affects me personally, but the entire “no minors in kpop” discussion is very much a valid thing to bring up, i just wish the ways it was discussed wasn’t so black and white and so very pointedly ignoring other children in media, particularly americans ignoring their own country’s problems as usual.

i wonder if they find some of these young idols to be pretty/handsome, cute/adorable and think that equates to finding them attractive in the wrong sense, and causes them a moral panic. as someone who has fought these intrusive thoughts and won, it’s totally innocent to think children/tweens/teens are adorable, cute, talented, and pretty/handsome. to me it’s never a sexual thing, it’s like calling my younger cousins cute/adorable, pretty/handsome, etc. i would never look at it this way. would it be weird for your own parents to call a young person in media cute/adorable or pretty/handsome? i don’t think it would be because it’s a completely innocuous comment made in passing. none of these things are sexual in nature because that’s not what they’re intended as. or maybe they see the pretty/handsome idols who are minors and think “oh no if i see them innocently and they’re pretty/handsome, how will pedos see them?” but it’s also such an awful way to live your life to think like that... idk i’m trying to access how ppl think. i did have to reconcile my feelings with these things as well as i transitioned into my 20s, and it took me until i treated my anxiety and turned 25 and my brain was finally fully developed so i realized that no, nothing has to be sexual if it isn’t to you, some things truly are innocent. BRING BACK INNOCENCE. USE INNOCENCE. YOU ARE NOT WHAT YOUR THOUGHTS ARE SAYING YOU ARE.

it seems to be the case that many of these ppl are saying “because we as adults want to continue to enjoy kpop without feeling weird or reconciling these feelings while transitioning into adulthood, we do not want minors in kpop.” and i only say this could be the case because the arguments for it are seemingly without actual plans for protecting these minors from creepers by dealing with said creepers.

this is so long. i probably shifted a lot of perspectives throughout this, but that’s how i sort my thoughts/feelings and then access the information into a conclusion. i love to do this through discussion, but twitter is NOT the place for this kind of discussion without ppl pointing figners and being unable to reflect and think critically about things without immediately resorting to black and white moral policing. i operate in grays, and i should be able to say things that are innocuous, but things that ppl tend to not say aloud lest they be seen as some weirdo. i’ve been called a weirdo my entire life, i can take it. i’d rather leave all possibilities out into the open to slap ppl in the face with than have them moving around acting like they have the moral solution to something that could very well just be their own personal mindset that needs to be worked through and overcome.

anyway, i just want to say that kpop makes me happy and i will continue to love and support the groups i love no matter what.

#rant

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rpmemesbyarat · 3 years

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Hello Tumblr people. I’m 31 years old and I’ve been on Tumblr since 2014. That’s not really old, and that’s not really a long time, but I know it’s older and longer than a lot of other folks. Tumblr is a space mainly populated by teens and twenties, and I know when I was in that age group, I thought 31 was a Real Adult (TM) Which, shit, it’s not, it’s really not, especially not for me, but nonetheless, I have learned some things in my time that I wish I could impart to my younger self, and instead will impart to y’all. Take what you like and what works for you and leave the rest, I’m no expert or guru or authority on anything, I’m just trying to be helpful. Being nice costs nothing. I once was standoffish to someone who came and chatted to me in IMs. That guy later died. True story. I feel terrible about it to this day. I was wary and kind of snotty in those days and I regret that. It’s one thing to be careful about strangers approaching but that wasn’t what I did here. It costs nothing to be nice. It costs nothing to be friendly. To do stuff like show interest in others, care about what they have to say, comment when they share things about their day. These are tiny things that cost nothing but give so much. Don’t pass the opportunity by. And definitely don’t snub someone for no reason. If you don’t want to interact, you don’t have to, but don’t be cold about it unless it’s legitimately because you’re uncomfy with this person and want them to go away. Your safety and comfort do come before any obligation to be nice, but I hope it’s clear that’s not what I’m talking about here. Be a candle that lights other candles. You know what else costs nothing? Encouragement. There’s nothing stopping you from telling others what you like about their content, what they post, what they create, what thoughts they have, the things they say, or just how passionate they are about something. There’s nothing stopping you from saying you hope the best for someone going through a rough time, or how cute their pets are, or how you’re glad they got themselves a treat today. You don’t need to be someone’s therapist ---I know I sure don’t have the emotional energy for that--or have solutions for them, you don’t need to force yourself to say anything insincere or that you don’t have the spoons for, but when you can, say something positive to others. First impressions can be wrong but gut feelings are often right. Like I said, being nice should NEVER trump your own comfort or safety. If you get weird vibes from someone, book it. Sure, you could be wrong. I’ve been wrong about a lot of people. I’ve also been right about others, and should have left when I had the chance before they could prove to me how right I was. Technically, there was nothing stopping me. It was online, after all. I could have just vanished and they’d probably never have tracked me down or made contact again. But I was lonely, and socially awkward, and like many people, most of my human contact was online, and I thought that this was worth it. It’s not. Whatever kind of friendship or therapeutic RP or free art or support or compliments or advice you’re getting from someone online. . . it’s not worth it if they’re mean or creepy too. Whatever you are getting, you can find it somewhere else, in someone else, who won’t make you have to put up with that kind of crap for it. If something feels wrong, don’t wait around for it to get worse. Yes, you may be incorrectly judging a situation and running from nothing, but it’s better you run from nothing than NOT run from SOMETHING. And I know that things like anxiety disorders, trauma, and just different communication styles can make it hard to judge these things (I’ve thought people didn’t like me before just because they were far less effusive in their typing style than I am, and I was wrong) but if you really feel uncomfortable, like this person has said mean or sexual things to you, it’s not just the brain weasels telling you lies. If you’re truly in doubt, get another person’s opinion, but also don’t let them convince you “it’s nothing” if it feels like something. Trust yourself. Creeps, like children, will test your boundaries. Kids will do shit just to see what they can get away and how far they can push you before you put your foot down. Creeps are the same. They’ll start with stuff that you can easily ignore, brush off, and put up with without feeling it’s worth ditching the whole friendship over. But they’ll rarely let it stay there. They’ll typically escalate it if they’re not rebuked. Rebuke them. It can be scary. It can be hard. I know this. I know it firsthand. But feel no sympathy. Feel no fear. Tell them off and pack your bags. They want to know how much you’ll put up with? Show them----nothing at all, that’s what. Don’t be afraid to change your views but don’t feel the need to broadcast it. I’m never getting a personal Tumblr. Because I’m glad they weren’t around when I was a teen. I would have posted things I don’t believe now. Same for when I’m in my 20s. And I bet that will the be the case in my 40s, 50s, and 60s too. Our lives are journeys of changing, learning, and unlearning. And that’s great. But if you post every step of your journey for the world to see, there are those who will use it against you, even if it was stuff from years ago that you should be applauded for growing from, not derided for having ever believed in. Not to mention that what’s the most up-to-date woke terminology and politics changes very rapidly, and what was acceptable when I was a teen is not the preferred lingo now, and it’s likely going to keep changing, and there will be people who find your posts and don’t care about that either. I realize Tumblr gives us a format to metaphorically scream our present beliefs and show how right what you believe is, and the urge to reblog when you see something you agree with wholeheartedly is strong. And if you’ve got a blog that doesn’t easily connect back with you, or you don’t plan to have for the next five years, or whatever, go ahead. But if your blog can be easily connected to you, and therefore could be connected to you again in the future, it wouldn’t hurt to be a bit judicious. I’m not saying “don’t take a stand on anything ever because you might change your mind and/or someone might drag you”, I am saying that in the age of cancel culture and people deep digging for ancient receipts, young people are no longer getting to have their journeys, with all their rooms for fuckups and re-thinkings, that I and those before me got to have, and I think that sucks. By all means, take a stand on what you believe in now, fight for it with all your heart, just also don’t make it too easy for other people to use it against you should you ever change your mind---and don’t be afraid to change your mind either, even when it’s against the grain of what’s presently popular opinion. Find things out for yourself when possible You know how when they taught you things in school about history and America and whatnot and now you’ve found out that there’s so much they DIDN’T tell you, and at least half of what they did is a very edited sack of hooey? Well, the same is true of Tumblr, Facebook, and other online spaces as well as real life. We all laugh at our Boomer parents and grandparents who share clearly false stories on Facebook because they can’t tell that it was clearly crafted to incite their anger or endorsement based on how it’s tailored to validate their beliefs, but I see the same thing happen here. Loads of tale gets touted as “true” on Tumblr because they have been made to appeal to us emotionally by validating our beliefs. But just because our beliefs may be good or progressive or what have you, does not mean that everything that appeals to them is going to be true. When you see a post circulating that claims something really cool about history or such is true, I suggest fact-checking it. This will help halt the spread of misinformation---even if it’s harmless---and help you build your critical thinking and research skills. This does not mean “you must change your views” it means “be skeptical even when something validates your views” People on our own side can lie, and that’s not harmless even if it seems so---contributing to a culture of misinformation is NOT harmless, and we’re less likely to be skeptical of claims that validate what we already believe. Don’t fall for this. That’s all. I hope something in here was valuable to you. If not, thank you for reading and I hope you have a great day!

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the-bjd-community-confess · 2 years

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This is gonna be a bit long.

Ok, so I'm betting the "can't believe 30yo's still play with dolls" person is a troll. But at the same time, I've heard, and seen minors say that exact shit about basically anything, and thinking that for some reason they're the driving force behind any fandom, or bigger franchise.

Arguments like: "Fandom is for minors" Fandom was created by adults for adults. Minors are basically a fringe demographic, especially before the internet. No one gave a shit about minors, because adults were the ones creating the content, and other adults would pay for said content and buy merch. 90% of fan content is made by adults, or hosted by sites owned by adults. Literally no aspect of fandom was created by minors, nor has any niche ever been made just by minors for minors.

"Minors are the focus demographic." That isn't even true for media made for children's TV. You think minors are the demographic for kid's cartoons? Nope, it's the parents, or the people who're the legal guardians, because they're the people with money, and are gonna buy merch, and let their child watch it. That's why content like Monster High was changed so drastically, because adults didn't like the look of the dolls, so it was changed, which tanked numbers for people buying the dolls.

"It's so weird when adults ship minor characters" Who do you think wrote said minor-characters? All of YA, and teen novels with romance was probably written by someone in their 30's, or older. Maybe some in their 20's, but that's a minority. Any minors writing books, or something, and having it published officially. Nah. "Dolls are for children." Most collector dolls, which includes BJD's, are literally so out of most minors price range, I really wanna see a minor get enough money, without asking their parents or family, and buy a doll for 200+ usd.

Hell, dolls have a huge subculture of adult collectors, and you can especially see that with old dolls, or traditional dolls. In some cultures dolls weren't even viewed as children's toys until much later, because the dolls were ritualistic pieces, or decorations.

Personal anecdote about how weird minors are in hobby/fandom spaces: I was in a hobby server where we had an NSFW channel, the admin only added the "you confirm you wanna see NSFW" label you can use on discord, even though several people (adults) asked specifically to have a role for age, and if any minors lied they'd be kicked for faking their age.

One minor, 15, was made mod bc he gave a boost to the server, he got mad at the demand for kicking if you lied about the age thing, and he literally admitted to being in the NSFW channel, and some adult interacted with him there. When several of us made a stink about it bc, "WHAT THE FUCK THAT'S A MINOR IN A CHANNEL WITH NSFW CONTENT" and said we wanted the channel locked, and the adult interacting him to AT LEAST be put in timeout, admin didn't react/refused. (The adult interacting with the minor in NSFW didn't show any NSFW content, but just made a dirty joke about bodypillows, but all of us adults, and even some other minors, agreed this still wasn't ok.)

Minor-mod then claimed he, and other minors had a right to be in NSFW bc "We see NSFW everywhere anyway" which obvs many thought was a shit excuse, and that he shouldn't be a mod, because that was fucking creepy. And then he even made the argument it's the adults fault for making having spaces for adults, and that it didn't matter anyway. Most adults even said that this wasn't OK, made many of us feel unsafe, minors included, because it's literally so fucking icky for a child to try and be in NSFW spaces, and many adults actually have a hard line of not interacting with minors online. Said it's our problem if we feel uncomfortable, and we had no right to ban minors for accessing adult spaces, even when people pointed out it literally says that the NSFW label discord has, mentions 18+ somewhere, so he was literally breaking the rules by accessing it after seeing the screen.

Anyway, this went on for a long while, and many adults, AND minors, and several of the mods expressed their disgust at having this kid as a mod, and especially with those opinions, and were legit asking if the kid could be de-modded, but no dice. Admin didn't want to hurt the kids feelings, so the kid stuck around, and several of us left. (I literally have the screenshots of most of this drama saved, not all of it, but like 85% of it, and I've showed it to so many people, and everyone was disgusted by this bullshit.)

~Anonymous

#BJD #ABJD #BJD Confessions #TrueBJDConfessionz #BJD Groups

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ao3-sucks · 4 years

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An Archive of Someone’s Own: my experiences being groomed in fandom circles on AO3

TW: Childhood sexual abuse, grooming, mentions of incest and rape.

I used to be a big writer of fanfiction. It was the logical choice for me. I loved to write and create bold and immersive worlds, and I craved an audience who would enjoy my work as much as I did. Since my writing wasn’t actually good, I needed a community of other amateurs who wouldn’t mind that, and by tweaking my characters and settings into ones from canonical media, I got the audience I so craved.

I started writing fanfiction online when I was 14, posting initially on FanFiction.net and then moving to AO3 a few months later. As I got back into writing original fiction towards the end of high school, I lost interest in this community, and it’s been a long time since I posted anything much on AO3.

I’ve always struggled with the fact I display a lot of symptoms of CSA, and for the longest time, I couldn’t figure out why. Throughout my teen years, I refused to get changed or bathe when anyone was even vaguely nearby, constantly paranoid about being spied on; I developed a severe touch phobia, and would have frequent panic attacks from something as small as brushing arms with a passerby; I resolutely identified as asexual and refused to get into anything resembling a relationship with others because the very concept disgusted and repulsed me.

Weird, considering I had grown up pretty normal and all of these symptoms had started around my early teens. It was only when I told my friends about my friendship with a 30 year old I had met online that the pieces started falling into place for me.

Child grooming is usually discussed in the context of one adult going out of their way to befriend a child with the goal of lowering their resistance to sexual abuse, through normalisation and friendliness. I’d like to talk about how that worked on the fanfiction website AO3. Since it’s an open website and most communication takes place between anonymous users or accounts in the comments section of a work, there is very little delineation between spaces for adults to discuss whatever dark topics they like and spaces for kids to do the same.

This frequently leads to pretty inappropriate conversations between people of widely varying ages and life experiences, which is how I ended up talking sex as a fourteen year old with people ranging from a couple of years older than me, who were generally okay, to more than twice my age. The 30 year old in question listed on her profile how many pedophilic ships she loved, and she knew my age but pushed me to keep discussing sexual topics with her. Sounds like a red flag, yeah? Well. I was 14, and very stupid.

This 30 year old woman, who I will call Aku (because it’s similar to her screen name and because it’s funny to name her after the bad guy from Samurai Jack) would start conversations with me whenever I posted anything to AO3 and would refuse to take no for an answer when I tried to back out of conversations with her, and since these conversations were public and occurring within comments, I didn’t want to be rude to her since this was taking place on content I was trying to promote.

I told her my age multiple times and she would either pretend she forgot from last time (saying her memory is super bad) or continue as though it was just trivia about me and not a sign she shouldn’t have been pushing me. My primary objection to what she would say to me (since most of it was just her being annoying) was her insistence on sexualising everything I wrote, and her determination to push me into writing pornographic content, which I eventually gave in to.

Yes, she was a terrible person. She emailed me using her personal email address, so I know her full name and place of residence, because she’s an idiot. These emails also contain sexually explicit materials. Nothing much ever happened between us except for these very creepy interactions and the fact we remained online friends for a few years. But here’s the thing: she wasn’t the only person pushing me into creating sexual content. Lots of people would comment on my writing demanding that I show explicit sexual content when I really didn’t want to.

After a while it felt like I couldn’t write a longer, romantic fanfiction without including explicit sexual content. Like my work wasn’t valid without it. Other, more popular writers were usually sexual in their content, and I wanted to be like them and bring in the views, right? So, when I look at my back catalog of works, I can see how my content moved from completely non-sexual to featuring sexual content over time, and the views usually came with. In this way, I was in an environment that was encouraging me on many levels to sexualise my own work, which impacted the way I thought about my creative process.

Here’s another example I remember. When I was a young sprout, I remember reading down someone’s list of fanfiction recommendations and seeing a work called Hug Therapy, which I promptly read. While the work is marked as explicit and containing the Loki/Thor pairing, the use of relationship and rating tags on AO3 is so poorly regulated that it didn’t really mean anything to me to see either of those. People tag hardcore material as non-explicit and tag friendships as relationships, because there’s no motivation to tag properly. Plus, someone I followed here on Tumblr had recommended it to me.

Now, you wouldn’t know from the listing, but while this piece starts out as comedy, it turns out in the end to include rape, incest, and BDSM in very explicit terms. The fact it was tagged as being explicit didn’t slow me down, because the liberal use of these tags could mean that an explicit tag was just there because sexual content was implied or mentioned, which I thought would be the case based on the rest of the listing. Out of curiosity, I recently tried to report this work to the moderators for containing no warnings about incest or rape, and I got this in response:

“Selecting “Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings” satisfies a creator’s obligation under the warnings policy. Users who wish to avoid specific elements entirely should not access fanworks marked with “Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings”. Our Terms of Service note: “You understand that using the Archive may expose you to material that is offensive, triggering, erroneous, sexually explicit, indecent, blasphemous, objectionable, grammatically incorrect, or badly spelled. ….. This decision is in accordance with our policy of maximum inclusiveness; we have therefore closed this case and will not be investigating further.”

Which, yeah, I guess. The frustration comes from how ‘Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings’ is an extremely commonly used tag, and most things that it’s used on are totally harmless.

This fanfiction, which I was recommended by a friend, is hugely popular, in the top 60 most read fanfictions in the entire fandom. You wanna hear the kicker? The author, Astolat, is one of the founders of AO3. They’re not just some random author who isn’t following the rules. They’re a creator of the whole website, and they made the rules. This is pretty telling about how seriously the website actually takes protecting their users.

My final example I want to give is one of fetish content. People in fetish communities generally (not always) say that fetishes are probably something one should work up to after the onset of sexual activity, especially potentially harmful stuff like BDSM. In the circles I was running in, if you weren’t sporting a fetish or two (no matter your age) you were a boring bitch.

Maybe this isn’t true of everywhere in the fanfiction community, but I used to feel that bizarre pressure until I got out. Bear in mind that my main time in this community was from ages 14 to 17. I never made my age a secret, either. I told people outright I was that age, I was in high school, I was playing hockey and studying The Great Gatsby when I wasn’t online.

Since I was in the Avengers fandom and I liked Loki and the Asgardians, I was frequently exposed to incestuous content between Loki and Thor, and a lot of it came out of nowhere or was poorly tagged. This was considered the norm, and while I at first felt completely horrified and repulsed, within a year or two I no longer gave a shit. It’s only in the last few years as I’ve begun to unpack everything that I’ve started to get that strong revulsion reaction to incestuous content.

In the circles I was in, it was relentlessly normal. Normal to the point that people who disliked it were usually shouted down. Even to this day, debate rages on in fandom spaces about whether or not content like this normalises this kind of abuse. In my own personal experience, which I don’t usually like to talk about, it absolutely does.

In real life, this normalisation started to have serious consequences for my mental health and interpersonal relationships. In fanfiction, any occasion when you are alone with someone could become sexual, any familial relationship is possibly sexual, and it doesn’t matter if you like it or not. I became incredibly anxious around male family members for fear of being sexually assaulted, and my OCD, which I had been developing since I was a child, turned from thoughts of physical violence to thoughts of graphically sexually assaulted by anyone and everyone around me.

My fear of being touched got to the point where I would have panic attacks if anyone came anywhere close to touching me. I quit sports, fucked up my romantic relationships, and didn’t hug anyone, not even members of my family, for years. All the while, I had bought my first laptop and was consuming more fanfiction than ever before. I struggled with my sexuality growing up, as I am bisexual, and while fanfiction provided LGBT content to help me, the content was frequently so disturbing that I viewed any expression of sexuality as something evil and predatory.

The community on AO3, whether you like it or not, is often sexual, and provides no barriers between the casual user looking for content and extremely intense fetish material. It’s sometimes called the Pornhub of fanfiction, but considering the wide range of people who use it, it’s more like if you opened Youtube and saw niche hardcore fetish videos just on the front page, recommended and trending.

Sure, you have to click a little button to confirm you’re 18 before you can actually read a story, but the tags and descriptions of readily available works can be extremely explicit. Fanfiction also brings you into close contact with fellow readers and the author, and encourages you to become a content creator, which in some ways makes it more dangerous.

I was affected much more strongly by what I saw than most people would be, because I was already treading shaky ground. But I’m also not the only person out there who has been hurt in this way. Most of my friends who grew up in fandom can report the impact that fanfiction culture had on them. One of my friends from high school knew a panoply of porn terms at age 14 or so due to reading fanfiction, and another of my other friends at high school almost exclusively read rape porn because it was her favourite. I didn’t have friends who watched porn; I had friends who read fanfiction. These are just as troubling to me as any other accounts of young people consuming visual porn from a very early age.

It’s frequently cited that fanfiction gives minority groups the opportunity for creative outlet. It was a great place for me to cut my teeth as a content creator, and a source of acceptance and kindness when times were tough. Fanfiction communities have historically been the domain of women and minorities, and create a space for these people to tell their own stories.

It’s largely because of this that fanfiction communities fear censorship and strict moderation, as they have been attacked in the past on homophobic or misogynistic grounds, resulting in mass deletions of works or the shutdown of websites. But there must be some middle ground between total censorship and the kind of free rein that puts vulnerable people in danger, and I strongly encourage the board of AO3 to seek this middle ground out.

But it’s the community itself that needs to shape up; AO3 is, after all, a community-led website built by fans for fans, so the fact that this website has such issues is a reflection of the issues that run deeply within the people who created it. Aku didn’t talk to me with the intention of doing me harm, or so I believe at this time, and she didn’t pursue me as a lone wolf or in isolation.

She was simply a particularly brazen member of a community that was used to having inappropriate conversations with young people and sexualising everything they did. Even people my own age were jokingly pushing me into discussing and consuming extremely sexual content. It was just normal. That’s what I want to say here. Inside the world of fandom on AO3, the grooming of children with sexual content is normal. And that’s scary.

- Mod Daft

#mod daft post #ao3 discourse #fandom wank #fanfiction discourse #fanfiction wank #csa//#rape//#grooming//#incest//

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mythgirlimagines · 3 years

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I hope that you like this more obscure talentswap! This fast-talking mile-a-minute lass lives for all there is to do with justice, for she is Myth, the Former Ultimate Stenographer!

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BACKSTORY AND TALENT

Being born to two hard-working pervayors of justice (attorneys, in fact), Myth always witnessed her parents getting justice served to the people who deserved it, and always wished to follow in their footsteps, so she would always write what her parents said in the court, so she could use it as future reference. Some of the court officials noticed this, and offered to give this girl a position as the court’s professional stenographer, and you better believe she wears that title like a badge of glory, and performs to the highest of capabilities. Myth’s supreme skill in stenographing earned her a spot on the Hope’s Peak roster as the Ultimate Stenographer, and even in her adult years, she is still working hard every day to record the words uttered by the justice system that she holds ever so dear to her heart. But her best friend forced her to take the next couple of weeks off, and chaperone this years Ultimates and Jr. Ultimates.

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RELATIONSHIPS

Wyre Anon, Former Ultimate Kickboxer

Despite being only two inches taller than their friend, Wyre dominated foes way bigger than them, thanks to their strong and wild kicking, which is enough for them to be considered a champion and caused them to earn their position as the Ultimate Kickboxer, and they are still going strong in their adult years. Despite their rough appearance and her equally rough demeanor and behavior, their criminal record is squeaky clean, and for that reason, Myth and Wyre have been only the best of friends for years and years. Wyre is also the only one who can understand Myth’s fast-talking and shorthand speech, and the only person who can stop Myth from over working herself and stressing herself out over minor details.

Outfit: An orange and sleeveless hoodie over a bandage-wrapped chest, chains on her neck and wrist, sweatpants that match her hoodie, nothing on her feet.

Anon Scar, Ultimate Puppeteer

As the mastermind and creative genius behind famous horror web series told exclusively through expertly-crafted marionettes and props, and a creepy voice acting as the narrator, Scar commonly calls herself ”The Narrator”, “The Disembodied Voice”, or, most notably of all, “The Puppetmaster”. Oddly enough, despite puppeteering for specifically in the horror genre, and wearing clothes that would be right at home on a cursed and possessed Victorian-era doll, Scar is actually quite the softie in real-life, often acting like a concerned mother to the other Kibo-Con attendees. Scar’s creepy appearance immediately scared Myth away, much to the dismay of the puppet enthusiast.

Outfit: A red beret on her head, cracks drawn on her face making her resemble a haunted doll, a black and white gothic-Lolita style dress, black and white striped stockings, brown platform heels.

Fusion Anon, Ultimate Waiter

Garnering fame all around his hometown for his ability to hold several plates of food all at once, while roller-skating simultaneously, Fusion is a waiter at the “Squeaky-Clean Spoon”, a 60s style diner run by his parents and grandparents, that is famous for their chili dogs and selection of songs on their personal jukeboxes. With their shared love for punctuality in their respective duties and their shared concern for their conmates, you would think that the two would get along perfectly. However, Myth caught wind of a certain skeleton in Fusion’s closet, and hasn’t forgiven Fusion since. Fusion desperately wishes to reconcile with his senpai, even if he is siding with an acclaimed thief.

Outfit: A white dress shirt, a red, yellow, and blue striped tie, a red and white apron, white gloves, red and white four-wheel roller-skates, glasses and pants from his original design.

Fusion Anon II, Ultimate Thief

As a youngster, Fusion II was born and raised on the streets, and had to steal and loot from any house and store that she happened upon, in order to survive in this dog-eat-dog world. Her natural stealth and clever mindset helps her evade her captors and makes her only the perfect thief. However, a couple of months prior, Fusion II was caught stealing from The Squeaky-Clean Spoon by the owners, and was offered a place to stay at the diner, in exchange for working as one of the diner’s chefs. Because Fusion II and Myth are on opposite sides of the law, they both have a massive grudge against each other, making Fusion II the person Myth gets along with the worst.

Outfit: A black-leather jacket over a pink undershirt, blue-ripped jeans with the same apron as Fusion tied over it, tall black boots, sunglasses from the original design.

Just Anon, Ultimate Tutor

Tired of his constant truancy, in spite of his stunning genius, Janon’s teachers have forced him to tutor his kohais, as compensation for all of the school days he missed and as a way to learn what actual work feels like. Because Janon can memorize entire textbooks worth of information, he uses all of this knowledge in order to tutor the school children of his neighborhood. While he does equally as well of a job with students older than him, Janon is notably harsher on them, compared to children (his one weakness and soft-spot). Janon shows zero respect for any of his senpais, particularly the stick-up-her-butt stenographer. Myth is oddly intrigued by Janon’s quick retaining of info.

Outfit: The same formal wear that he wears underneath his hoodie from his original design, with a long pink scarf wrapped around his neck (which was knitted by one of his kohais), reading glasses.

Sparkle Anon, Former Ultimate Tap Dancer

The famed star of the Spectacular Sparkling Spotlight (or Troupe S3, for short) Dance Troupe, Sparkle and the other girls of her dance-oriented musical theatre troupe are all skilled at all sorts of dance styles, but as her title would suggest, Sparklw (and the rest of her troupe) mainly specializes in tap dancing. A combination of her loud voice, style and grace on the stage, and the sheer amount of knowledge on the world of performing and theatrics, made Sparkle the perfect person to lead her troupe into worldwide stardom. At first, Myth was scared off by Sparkle’s loud and commandeering tone, but eventually (even if she won’t admit it), the skittish stenographer has warmed up to Sparkle.

Outfit; A black and white tuxedo with a matching hat/headband on top of her hair, white gloves, black and pink tap shoes, a sparkly black and white cape, a cane she carries at all times, glasses from her original design.

Egg Anon, Former Ultimate Graffiti Artist, and Wet Sock Anon, Former Ultimate Tailor

Egg and Wet Sock are a pair of twins best known for their differently-applied artistic genius. Egg, the older and more physically-gifted (but not particularly bright or sensible) of the two, specializes in colorful and eye-grabbing graffiti, with or without permission from commissioners. Wet Sock, the more brooding and withdrawn (yet equally as cursed) of the two, specializes in custom-made and fitted clothes, particularly those of the emo subculture. Egg’s jokey nature and morally dubious talent puts them at odds with Myth, meaning that, out of the twins, Myth gets along better with Wet Sock, despite their strange and frightening attachment to knives and regularly pulling them out.

Egg’s Outfit: Green-tinted goggles, a splattered bandana covering their nose and mouth, a black tanktop, green cargo pants, black gloves, spray can holsters and boots.

Wet Sock’s Outfit: A simple black and white tuxedo, accessorized with sewing supplies.

Curious Anon, Jr. Ultimate Soccer Player

The otherwise ragtag soccer team of Star Summit Co-Ed Middle School has a secret ace up their sleeve, and that ace’s name is Curious Anon. Curious‘s sheer leg strength combined with his strategic mindset and game-breaking power made them popular among soccer fanatics everywhere and makes them truly earn the title of Ultimate Soccer Player. Despite their stoic and permanent game face frightening opponents, as any of their teammates would tell you, Curious is surprisingly kind-hearted and is easy to get along with. Curious’s honest and upfront nature seems to help calm Myth’s nerves, when she chooses to interact with the easygoing middle school soccer star.

Outfit: A green and white soccer uniform with black cleats.

Anon Nerd, Former Ultimate Skateboarder

On the other end of the jock scale, we have Anon Nerd, the jerkish and hyper-aggressive Ultimate Skateboarder, and the eldest of the Kibo-Con roster. Because of his less-than-stellar and hyper-violent upbringing, Nerd took it to the skatepark to vent his frustrations with half-pipe tricks. All the time spent at the skatepark made his skateboarding skills escalate and escalate, until he became a pro-skateboarder in his teen years, and eventually the Ultimate Skateboarder. Because of their close-to-opposite personalities, Myth and Nerd don’t get along well in the slightest. Unfortunately, they’ve both developed feelings for each other, that they’ve never experienced before.

Outfit; Hair in a Mohawk with red and black dyed tips, a black tank-top with a bloody skull illustration on the front, black cargo shorts with sheered bottoms, black socks and white sneakers, tattoos on his arms.

Eldritch Anon, Ultimate Public Speaker

Wanted to wake up the gullible sheep in the world, Eldritch quickly mustered up the confidence (thanks to several online confidence seminar marathons) to go in front of a crowd, and scream at them about all the terrible state the world is currently in, and how they’re all mindless corporate zombies, to let all of those atrocities slide. Despite his reputation as an overzealous Debbie Downer by many of his detractors, he has many fans for his loud and passionate voice and his regular use of peer-reviewed facts, making his speeches far more reliable than they seem. Eldritch’s anti-government attitude puts him at odds with Myth’s heavily pro-government mindset.

Outfit: Neatly combed hair, a black polo shirt with a green pixel design on the bottom, an orange tie, black pants and matching loafers.

Dream Anon, Ultimate Cadet

Despite her sunny and positive attitude clashing heavily against her strict and stoic military family and the rest of her squadron, no one can deny that Dream is a spectacular cadet towards her squadron. She can also play quite the mean bugle. With Dream and Myth opposite temperaments and interactions with others, you‘d be surprised to learn that they have two common point: their shared love of war history and respect for the government. They often like talking about war strategy and re-enacting old wars throughout history, using Dream’s collectible toy soldiers. These activities are one of the few times Myth‘s walls are let down in front of anybody, apart from Wyre.

Outfit: Hair in two small pigtails, a dark green and light green army helmet, black facepaint, a jumpsuit that matches her helmet, black boots with yellow soles.

Iris Anon, Jr. Ultimate Cellist

Ever since she was little, thanks to her musician parents (a guitarist father and a violinist mother), Iris has been exposed to music, and eventually chose to follow in her parent’s footsteps with her favorite instrument: the cello. Unfortunately, because of her dislike of crowded spots, Iris couldn’t join an orchestra like she (and her parents) wanted to, so she opted to simply play her cello from home and upload her music online. Regardless of her fears and anxieties, Iris always tries her best to remain positive. Iris may not understand what the hell Myth is even saying, but she always tries her best to strike conversation with her senpai, in hopes that the stenographer can open up.

Outfit: Silver music note hairpins, a blue denim jacket with silver music note buttons over a black dress with white string designs in the middle, dark grey leggings, dark blue Mary Janes, glasses from original design.

Purple Anon, Ultimate Class Representative

Purple is a student from one of the most prestigious and high-class schools in all of the country, and despite her timid personality, thanks to her strong work ethic and her kind-hearted nature, she managed to secure a position in the school’s hierarchy as the representative of her class. Because of her overly formal and heavily outdated mode of speech that’s more at home with the other students at her uppercrust school, she usually requires a translator (usually Fusion) to make her speech comprehensible to the middle-class conmates. Myth and Purple quickly bonded in true incomprehensible glory, and regularly have conversations that no one but Wyre and Fusion can understand.

Outfit: A black overcoat over a white dress shirt and a red tie, a purple skirt, dark grey stockings, and red Mary Janes, topped off by a red armband on her right arm.

The series centers around the skittish stenographer learning to give potential criminals the chance for redemption.

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PERSONALITY

Stenographer!Myth is renowned upon the justice system for her efficiency in the court and the stoic face she puts on, upon entering a court environment, able to capture speech right down to the tiniest of breaths. But off of the court, she’s the complete opposite, for her speech is about as speedy, jumbled, and incomprehensible as her writing, often requiring Kickboxer!Wyre to translate for her. Stenographer!Myth is often very jittery, when interacting with others, and almost never relaxes or slows down to take a breather. She has zero time for playing or joking around, for a stenographer’s work is never done, and justice never sleeps. Her moral compass and sense of justice is practically removable, which makes sense, considering the environment she lives in. This puts her at odds with people such as Theif!Two. She’ll never admit it, but Stenographer!Myth really cares about each and every one of the Kibo-Con attendees, but she’ll never admit it, for fear of being made fun of or being taken advantage of by a potential criminal hiding amongst the crowd.

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APPEARANCE

Stenographer!Myth has brown hair that reaches her tailbone and wears the same uniform that she wears to court. The uniform consists of a pink headband with a heart pin given by her mother, a blue jacket over a pink dress shirt and a gold pendant with an amethyst in the center, a skirt that matches her jacket, black leggings and ruby red Mary Janes. She carries a stenography machine with her, at all times.

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Phew! I’ve finished this week’s quota! I hope you like this talentswap! Let me hear your opinions on this AU!

-Fusion Anon

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falasta · 3 years

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I’m putting all this under a cut and tagging it so everyone can easily filter it. Thoughts only about what it means to be an “older adult” (over 30) in fandom. No shipping drama! Please let me know if there are any tags I should add.

I’ve been out of fandom interaction for many years now, and now that I have come back I’ve been seriously saddened by this idea that “older” fans (specifically over 30) are ostracized and seen as “creepy” for either being in a fandom or interacting with (presumably) younger fans. And not even talking about minors--like people in their 20s are complaining about the presence of older people in their fanspace.

This distresses me on a number of levels (I am a Registered Adult who is, as it turns out, older than 30). But mostly, because I feel like these younger fans don’t understand what they are missing out on.

I discovered fan fiction when I was in my first year in college and had my first computer, and my first access to the internet. I was stunned and thrilled that fan fiction was “a thing”, and fell headfirst into it. Fandom/fan fiction was different then, in both good and bad ways, but the most amazing part of it was then ability to connect with people of all different ages and backgrounds from all over the world. I guess there is now a generation that has grown up with this concept and so doesn’t quite understand how revolutionary it was. It was this revelation that I wasn’t weird or crazy or wrong! There are other people like me! And we can talk to each other, even though we might live on opposite sides of the planet! With a common interest in the weirdness that was fanfiction and fandom. Which was all very subversive and viewed by the mainstream public (if they even heard about it) as basically written porn and/or the Gays are Corrupting Our Children (seriously, you have no idea how homophobic so much of the fandom world was twenty years ago).

Many of those people that I met (mostly women) were older. Some were even *much* older, because these were the women who had started the original Slash fanfiction of Kirk/Spock back in the 70s when they were secretly passing folders around at conventions and mailing fanzines to each other over the country. You need to realize at this time that mailing anything containing homosexual material through USPS was considered pornographic and a FEDERAL CRIME! They were taking a huge risk. And when the internet really started up people started posting art and stories that could have been twenty plus years old. Sometimes the original author had even passed away and their creative works were posted by friends and family. They are and were fandom heroes and should be remembered for what they created and the risks they took.

Because the internet was new EVERYONE started using it and posting fan works. Most users were either my age (18) or older. There really wasn’t a concept of this being a problem. It was fun and interesting! Most people didn’t post any details about themselves at all--unless you got close with someone you often didn’t know anything about them beyond their internet name. One of the dearest friends I made in fandom was about 10 years older than me and we still, fifteen years later, share letters back and forth.

If you are in your teens or early twenties you will discover that when you get “older” you really still feel young. You may have a career or a family or a house and are still passionate about the fun things you enjoyed 10 or 15 or more years before. Fanfiction took me through two college degrees, grad school, career, career change, and a growing family. All this time I was dealing with severe clinical depression which I was only able to discuss at the time with my online friends, because there was the “hush-hush” idea that Mental Health Problems were taboo and must not be mentioned! (Once my antidepressants THANK YOU GOD THESE EXIST THEY SAVED MY LIFE kicked in I’ve tried to fight against this and be more outspoken about it.) Fandom got me through it, and is continues to be one of my happy spaces because of that. Occasionally it becomes my lifeline when days just become ... too hard.

Of course everyone should absolutely, 100% curate your own space. If anything in fandom makes you uncomfortable, sad, angry, or upset, then it is not serving its purpose.

Not sure if anyone is going to read this, but just thoughts.

#fandom #fandom drama #discourse #drama #fandom discourse #fandom history #I will probably regret posting this in the morning #I love you all crazy fandom people #no matter who you are

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cuntess-carmilla · 4 years

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I'm sorry, but as someone who belongs to and participates in an actual subculture, I can't take (Western?) fandom seriously.

I'm not saying alt subcultures are perfect by any means. I'm a goth and I could write and maybe have written whole essays on the bullshit within it, but even with all the racism, misogyny, performative liberalism and such (which are also present in fandom lol), there's just no comparison.

Alternative subcultures, as Problematic as they can be, are ALL about creating something new. I mean, not NEW new, we all come from somewhere, take inspiration, goth came directly from British punk, and pretty much none of the alt subcultures that were started since the 20th century would exist without Black culture, BUT... Guys, the goth subculture equivalent of fanfiction is a song cover.

Sure, lots of goth bands have released covers in order to get popular. Bauhaus themselves did it and they're one of the OG bands, but unless you're a tribute band (which literally only get as famous as they're able to be exact copies of the band they're imitating), no band considers themselves a real band if they haven't at least written original songs, most don't feel like a real one until they release studio recordings or play some live shows. Even those covers they make to get their names around get the eye roll if they don't add anything new and genuinely theirs to it.

Goths who're not musicians ourselves, first of all, don't think we're on Monica Richards' or Peter Murphy's level just because we sing THEIR songs half decently in the shower, like fanfic freaks (normal people who do fanfic excempt) who think their poorly written multichapter slowburn copycat romance is on the same level as Dante's Inferno or Paradise Lost.

Second, even if we're not musicians, we expect of each other to do something. Something original. I mean, people whose LOOKS are carbon copies of some other goth, famous or not, get eye rolled too, you know? This past decade things were a little different in that regard thanks to posers and Capitalism™, but other than that, we actually take offense when someone else copies the individual elements OF OUR FUCKING LOOKS that we cultivated to differentiate ourselves from other goths.

That's why DIY is so big in our subculture, why most of us practice SOME sort of creative hobby (music, writing, painting, clothes making, DJing, design, sculpting, etc) even if we suck at them. At least we try to do something that is completely ours rather than just redrawing a Victoria Francés illustration, changing the color of a dress, and publishing it as ours.

Shit, even our "elders" have no comparison. Fandom "elders" are rarely older than in their 40s, and most of the time they're fucking creeps who dedicate their lives to fictional characters decades younger than them and interact with younger fans in very inappropriate ways. There's asshole elder goths too, but our subculture generates so much genuine personal passion and sense of community, that we don't even consider it a YOUTH subculture anymore.

Our elders are ACTUALLY old. I'm talking people who were there since it started in the late 70s/early 80s as teens or early 20-somethings and are STILL goths. There's goths in their 60s nearing their 70s. And the reason we look up to them isn't just that they're weirdo predatory adults who intimidate or groom us into worshipping them. We look up to them because they've gathered knowledge through up to 4 decades of experience. They saw Bauhaus live before they broke up, they were in a tiny local band that opened for a bigger iconic one so they met them PERSONALLY, they keep relics from decades past, they witnessed our history.

Most importantly, they fought tooth and nail for our subculture to keep thriving not by being self-entitled weirdos pressuring others into validating their everything online, but by archiving ancient zines, keeping recordings of obscure bands who only played one live show before disbanding, passing on their knowledge to younger goths in person or online. They put their own money not into the pockets of big media corporations that don't need to make more billions than they already make, but into the pockets of struggling artists, bars, nightclubs, independent fashion designers, and their communities as a whole. That's why we respect them.

And ykw? I think that's the reason most fandom weirdos don't stick to fandoms for a long time, except for a few who cling to one or two but keep the rest rotating, and why most fandom "elders" aren't older than 40.

A show or movie series ends at some point and most creatives don't stretch them for decades on. Obviously they try to milk them as much as they can but if a story ended then it's over and there's only so much of the same repetitive fanfiction you can consume before you burn out and have nothing left to get your hands on. There's no community, yet you identify with a piece of media at the same level as you do your idk, college majors, star sign and shit.

You don't see me identifying as a Requiem in White fan on my description, I identify as a goth because I'm identifying with a history, a community I've interacted with in person, an ever growing body of new and old art and music, and wear my personal version of the uniform which I didn't buy ready to wear, but is the result of an effort of slowly building a wardrobe since 2007, that I've had to experiment with, play with, and each have their own personal stories attached to it. I mean, I remember EXACTLY what I was wearing when some Evangelical ladies sprinkled holy water on me in early 2008 and I still own those clothes, jewelry and shoes lol.

Fandom identity is, to me, only based on capitalist consumerism as identity and yeah, capitalism has clawed at my subculture especially during the 2010s, but it exists outside of that and it's so much more than buying shit, over-streaming songs to inflate an artist's performance, or taking something someone else created, slapping one sticker on it and calling it ours. My subculture can ACTUALLY politically organize, as can others (punk most notably), you know? Including organizing in rejection to the capitalist fast fashion that almost wrecked us this past decade.

All subcultures have some level of ideology attached to them (for better or for worse, sadly), and it's ideology most of us are passionate about. Goths have always been notorious for androgyny, and all forms of gender defiance are normalized and encouraged. A lot of us pay our respects to our punk roots of anti-capitalism. We don't believe in forced unhealthy positivity, we're less afraid of taboos, we appreciate eccentricity and oddity many times as an active choice against established norms, we find solace and home in what general society finds creepy or threatening...

What similar thing does fandom have beyond campaigning for Johnlock to hold hands or going to pride with some creepy yaoi sign? You guys aren't even good at fighting real bigotry within your spaces unless you're personally affected by them.

It's laughable tbh. I can't take fandom seriously at all, and I don't get how so many people can treat something so empty as if it was sacred.

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angels-heap · 4 years

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Minors acting like they can police adult fans for participating in adult fandom (innocuously: obvs people deliberately being creepy don't count) is like someone crashing a party to tell the guests already chilling there that they have to leave. How about no? We were here first, and most of us are just minding our own business anyway.

As this discourse continues to drag on and on, I find myself feeling more and more thankful that I had the formative internet experiences I did, because it sounds like the internet I grew up with is gone forever and things are much worse and scarier now. As annoying as these attempts at censorship are, I get the impression that this behavior is stemming from some sort of... collective trauma?... that younger people on the internet have experienced that makes them wary of anyone over the age of 18.

It’s absolutely horrifying that so many kids and teens have been groomed online that they’ve come to expect it, and I worry about the long-term consequences of this (possibly necessary) self-imposed isolation based on age groups, because healthy intergenerational exchange is important for social development and it was also one of my favorite parts of growing up on the internet. During my relatively short time here, I’ve really come to appreciate how good the core HL fandom is at including people of all ages while maintaining appropriate social boundaries. Sounds like that’s rare these days, and hopefully it’s helping teach our younger friends how to distinguish between healthy interactions and predatory ones instead of relying on (easily faked) demographic information in people’s carrds to decide who’s safe to talk to and who isn’t.

I also can’t help but notice the irony in the fact that the people who came in screaming false accusations about how the presence of adults makes fandom spaces inherently unsafe are the exact same people who are actually making the Half Life fandom an unsafe space. We were doing just fine before y’all showed up and tried to crash the world’s chillest, least problematic party.

#asks #benignmilitancy #ship discourse

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kuriquinn · 4 years

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Dear Mr. Kuri, thank you so much for your recent post concerning the young artist who was effectively censored from sharing his/her/their art on a particular subject (just... so sad). I was hoping to get your thoughts on how adults might navigate interactions with minors in this space. Specifically, extending our support for their work w/out necessarily... engaging with them. I know this sounds crazy stupid but before tumblr I wasn't really active on any social media and I had no idea (cont'd)

there were so many users under the age of 16 on this site. I've even come to learn that some identified users I had interacted with early on were as young as 13, and as someone in my 30's - tbh that scared the shit out of me. I totally agree that someone that young and impressionable would be crushed by the kind of criticism that poor artist faced, and would likely never create or share again... to their detriment. The thing is though, I feel really hesitant following any creator (cont'd)

that isn't 18 or older... What are your thoughts on following/reblogging/interacting with minors in fandom? I fully agree that they need support, especially from older users who don't care what some stranger on the internet has to say... but I just feel... like I don't know how to go about that the right way. I really REALLY don't want minors on my blog at all... sorry to bother you with this, just wondering how you'd suggest handling this. I didn't comment on the post bc I didn't (cont'd)

want to risk that young artist reading my inquiry and feeling even more alienated. As always, thank you for your time and insight. - Birk

I may go a bit off-topic here, but let me give this a try:

I think in, In the end, it all comes down to communication and mutual respect.

Adults have this pervading mentality that until a child hits 18, they need to be infantilized and sheltered, but once they pass that magical number, then it’s a free for all. So, for eighteen years, it’s all about sticking a Potemkin village in front of any idea, person or situation that a child might find uncomfortable (read: they don’t like the feelings it gives them; very different from actual harmful ideas/persons/situations). Then, these sheltered almost-adults enter public spaces and expect society to keep doing that…when it turns out that’s not how it works, they become toxic.

This is how poisonous movements like purity-culture develop online, or new fans who demonize older fans and adults as being perverts for enjoying the very same pastimes they have.

For those of us interacting with these people, the automatic reaction is to “cancel” that person, thereby alienating and isolating them even more in their bad behavior. Instead of taking the time to talk with and try to show them through actions that the world isn’t limited to what they know.

As adults in fandom, we know that a large majority of the fandom is younger, because we were them once. We were that 12-year-old discovering fanfiction existed or sharing drawings we made of our original Harry Potter characters or quoting our favorite movies and televisions ad infinite. We got shit for it in real life, so we had to create spaces of our own online.

We, in effect, built fandom so that it would be more welcoming for the generations that came after us. And while a lot of us stick to that unwritten knowledge, as the years pass, a lot more become gatekeepers. They set a standard of what a fan must know or do to be considered a “real” fan, and they’re mean about how they do that.

Is it any wonder that new fans coming in experience this behavior and then jump on the “adults in fandom is creepy” bandwagon?

These new fans coming in, especially tweens and teens, they still live in this false reality where they only get to enjoy themselves and be kids for a limited amount of time, and once they Become Adult they have to give it all up—and can’t figure out why all those old creeps online are still a part of such “childish” things.

That fault lies squarely on our society, which pushes kids from a young age to be thinking of what they want to do when they grow up so they can get out there and start producing, producing, producing for the state and becoming a “useful” member of society.

We as fandom veterans, need to do our best to teach them differently, and that comes right back to my point: communication and mutual respect.

Older fans need to respect newcomers, as much as the new baby fans need to learn to respect their fandom elders. There is no maximum age for fandom; there’s no minimum age, either, although the younger the fan, the more their parents should be keeping an eye out for the truly damaging stuff and teaching their kids how to avoid that stuff on their own.

Now, obviously, people don’t always announce online how old they are (though it does happen more frequently now than when I started writing), but regardless, there should be a certain etiquette to it.

When you interact with someone online, you don’t know if they are 15 or 50. And the way you interact with them shouldn’t change based on knowing their age. We should maintain the same level of respect for the new fans as the older fans.

So, as to how adults might navigate interactions with minors (especially when you know they’re minors)?

Treat them as any other intelligent human being: with respect.

Because how else are they going to learn?

My mom always used to say to us, “I’m not raising children, I’m raising adults,” which basically meant she was teaching us how to be adults. Kids don’t pop out of the womb magically knowing how to interact with the world, they take their cues from the adults that are already there.

Fandom babies learn how to be active participants in fandom from the people who are already there. And they’re more likely to listen to and look up to someone that treats them as a mature and capable being, than someone who dismisses them as too young or too green, or dismisses their knowledge and experience because they haven’t earned their metaphorical stripes.

Remember, a lot of these kids are coming to fandom because they need an outlet. In this age of helicopter parents, this is the only place where they get to be treated as an individual adult-in-the-making instead of the overly protected child or student that must be shielded from the world. A lot of them are trying to figure out how to deal with the horrors that happen to them or around them every day. That 16-year-old girl writing a rape/non-con fic under a pseudonym? She could be exorcising her own demons through the only way she has because no one in her life is listening to her. That 14-year-old writing about homelessness might know more about it than someone twice his age.

Expertise and experience knows no age, and as adults, we need to not fall into the trap of thinking it does. There are some kids out there that have seen and endured more than I can even imagine.

In recent years, there’s been this trend of treating kids like sexless beings until we, the adults, deem them capable of having a sense of sexuality. When the reality is, once kids start puberty, they’re developing that sexuality, and are trying to figure out what it means to them and how to navigate it, and the world. It doesn’t matter if adults are uncomfortable with it, this is what our human biology has decided for us.

And chances are, as much as adults try to curate the world and keep kids from seeing the darker, less safe stuff? They’re already doing it. I saw this when I was teaching, the kids are already accessing and interacting with stuff like sex, drugs, relationships… Whenever a faceless censor tries to block that sort of thing, they find a way around it. Humans are funny like that—we want the things that are kept away from us, whether harmful or not.

It’s our responsibility to help them think critically about what they’re seeing, and teach them to express themselves about it in a respectful manner.

So by all means: follow that amazing artist even if they are only 15. Their age doesn’t negate the fact that they have talent that needs to be nurtured and encouraged. Reblog the images and the fics that strike you, even if you find out the person writing it isn’t 18 yet. Send a shoutout via DM or review or comment to someone that you admire whether you know they’re age or not.

Unless you’re being actively creepy and offensive (and seriously, don’t do that, it’s gross whether the recipient is a minor or not), chances are these creators are desperate for some assurance that the medium they choose to express themselves in is having an effect on people—and that they have the power to make even adults sit up and listen.

So…TL;DR:

When interacting with younger fans, do so with respect. And if they say something problematic, don’t automatically cancel them and write them off as “obviously too young and immature to understand”. They understand more than you think and will seek out their interests whether adults think it’s appropriate or not. That’s how freedom works. But if we’re going to nip bad behavior like purity culture and agism in the bud, we need to start by treating minors in fandom as adults developing their worldview, not as infants to be sheltered.

#longpost #asks #fandom #content creators #content consumers #reading #writing #online etiquette

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fiendfriend · 5 years

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You ever stop for a second to think about your own personal timeline of being aware of your own individual relationship with the self and with sex/sexuality or whatever. Wild. There’s no purpose to this post but its my personal blog and I get to choose the topic of oversharing for the night.

(CW for vague nongraphic discussion of underaged sexuality (my own) since I know that can get weird and uncomfortable) (Also CW for consent issues? sexual abuse? Maybe?) If you’re on mobile and can’t see read more breaks I am so sorry.

Everything before age 8: Troubling unchildlike behavior. Trigger warning [redacted] Refuses to do “stupid kid stuff”. Once stayed home from kindergarten because I was absolutely inconsolable over overhearing adult strangers talking about something sexual and not knowing how to expunge the information from my brain.

Sometime after age 8: Lots of acting out in benign ways (not doing homework, stealing booze, general edgelord shit). Rude, vulgar and weird, lots of screaming and general oddball behavior. My parents are finally divorced and my dad takes me to elementary school on a motorcycle. I have my own little leather jacket and helmet. Angry and actively malicious whenever someone from school would want to befriend me or have a crush on me. Everybody is lame and romantic feelings make me sick. Dead set on becoming a drifter as a career choice.

Early preteens/teens: Nervous schoolboy fresh outta catechism who just got done having naïveté hammered back into my skull. Aware of and views pornography, but sex and sexuality make me nervous enough to get the shakes and want to throw up. Still calls mom and dad “mama and daddy”, refuses to use disgusting obscenities like “tits” or “boner”, would never dream of saying anything sexual, much less where someone can hear. Rebelling against my family by rejecting The Dark-Alternative Scene. I’m normcore now.

Somewhere around age 14: emotional/existential crisis after reading Dostoevsky’s The Idiot and Kafka’s The Metamorphosis back to back during my constant trips to detention, questionable friends who regularly violate physical/emotional/sexual boundaries, dabbling with cheap beer and pot smoking, awkwardly promiscuous while still refusing to interact “like that” “for real” with other people. Regularly removes articles of clothing at the local cemetery. Did really fucked up looking body horror pornographic commissions for the other straight-F jailbirds in detention. Dealing with weirdo vaguely abusive Jeffrey Dahmer wannabe before he went all Trigger Warning [redacted]. Also I’m goth now.

High school: MMF poly relationship in freshman/sophomore year was my first “real/serious” relationship somehow??, unceremoniously dumped the other dude after a couple months because we thought he was, quote, “like really lame” (emotionally stupid, no boundaries, needy), stayed dating the girl for about 7 more months before that went down in flames, still awkwardly promiscuous, long term monogamous boyfriend acquired in jr year. JD wannabe would frequently show up unannounced at my school/text me from other numbers/continue to do all those things he did until I ultimately threatened to kill him if he spoke to me again. Troubling unteenagerlike behavior, “suicide is a valid option” mentality. Latched really hard onto the ace/aro labels and online community as a way to avoid processing trauma.

Those four or five weird vague years after my brain melted and I dropped out of high school: I honestly cannot for the life of me remember what the fuck I was doing here. Drinking a lot, smoking some, awkward sex always, not particularly into any of it. Self-identified as “sex negative”. Somehow partying constantly while still being completely unable to leave the house alone or verbally communicate with people I don’t already know. Weird time. Getting Catholic again, but like, in a religious horror/weird sex fascination kinda way. Had to stop sexual encounters multiple times to go throw up. Definitely said yes more times than I should have out of obligation or ingrained lurking fear.

College: Sex is lame and was never enjoyable. Can comfortably discuss sexual content or weird fetishes with both close friends and vague acquaintances, even though irl stuff is still somewhat nauseating and gives me the shakes. Turns out the nausea and shakes are caused by the gross combination of trauma feelings+arousal, not always in equal parts. Still drawing/writing smut for funsies though. Sometimes I get money off it! Cool! Likes going all creepy psychoanalyst on the root causes of sexual fetishes. Blah blah blah overanalytical, maladaptive whatever. Still kinda goth.

#its between me and jesus and my 35 followers

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cappucino-commie · 5 years

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what does that post mean by “antis” I’ve never heard that phrase used before???

What does anti mean? Great question! Depending who you ask, it ranges from ‘someone with common sense to’ to ‘crazy puritans who murder people for having different shipping opinions’. So let’s tackle some backstory here.

Fandom used to be way more shipping intense. That was the big thing people did- write fanfic for the purpose of seeing romantic pairings they wanted together. These days there’s a lot more speculative exploration with different plotlines and ideas and genres, and less intense shipping. It still exists, don’t get me wrong, but it used to be worse. Somehow.

But anyways people argued a lot about Who Was Correct About Shipping. If someone liked SasuNaruSasu and someone else like NaruSaku, and the NaruSaku person started insulting SNS and calling it an unrealistic gay fantasy and dumb etc etc etc you might call them ‘anti’ SNS. In fact, there were massive anti-NaruHina and anti-NaruSaku crowds before the manga concluded. Mostly self projecting fanboys but hey ya know. There was also character bashing, which was when someone would write a fic of their ship and write a character from the ship they disliked (often their NOTP) as wildly out of character and horrible to prove a point. See TV Trope’s “Ron The Death Eater”. Related, they’d write characters they liked extremely out of character to make them good people- TV Tropes “Draco In Leather Pants”.

So far we’ve defined anti as someone who’s anti some ship. Which is a good historical definition to start making sense of the discourse these days. Cause now we got to start talking about pedophiles. Here’s the thing about the internet- it enabled a lot of people with similar interests to talk to eachother and form communities that otherwise couldn’t exist. This isn’t a bad thing- it’s led to LGBT people being able to have online communities in areas where they can’t have physical ones, people to become educated on topics, and harmless but weird communities to form like furries (they existed before the internet but were never large).

It also enabled pedophiles to communicate with other pedophiles- and worse, communicate with kids. Before preceding, I would like to dash against the rocks the singular idea of a pedophile as a creepy man living in his mother’s basement. Pedos come in many shapes and sizes, and our society has something of a pedophilia problem- not everyone with a problem is a malicious and horrid TV abuser. But they are a problem. And the internet let them gather and discuss things, and also share things they liked. Because it’s illegal to share actual child porn, they often share fictionalized child porn- writings, drawings, roleplays, etcetera. See (or don’t actually it’s horrifying) sh*ta (replace with an o) or l*li (replace with o) pornography for a good example of this kind of thing. Stuff like that is dubiously legal- not enough to convict someone, but definitely indicative of a real problem. Often times someone can become exposed to it as a teen and it can change sexual tastes and lead to bad things. We can even talk about how the rise of l0li porn lead to increased child trafficking and JK culture (adult men paying highschoolers to date them).

So where’s the intersection here, right? I’m talking about two different things. Sort of. The story you’ll get from someone who’s “anti anti” has a grain of truth in it, and it’s this:

Early fandom had a lot of fighting about ships, as mentioned above. Some of it was homophobic, as slash (gay) ships were more controversial. Additionally, fandoms moved from platform to platform because websites didn’t like having gay content on their site because gays are bad for business. What arose from this was a horrible idea: Don’t Like, Don’t Read. Basically the concept of not interacting with people whose ships you don’t like, creating a ship armistice in the fandom. Not actually a bad idea in theory.

So here’s the intersection- pedophiles exist in fandom. People who produce fiction about adult characters having sex or relationships with minor characters, graphic fictional child pornography, etcetera etcetera. And the fandom defends them, because Don’t Like Don’t Read. When people try to speak out about the (very real) danger of this content being dangerous to minors, or adult content producers grooming minors in fandom (unfortunately also a very real danger) they get accused of being anti-that-ship. Which is true, in some sense, but not really the crux of the issue. Because of previous issues with fandoms having to leave platforms because of company homophobia, fandom as a whole has also created the erroneous connection between homophobia and criticizing fandom- accusing people of being “homophobic puritans” and “like bible thumpers!” for having a problem with someone shipping a 12 year old and his 26 year old mentor. (Which becomes doubly hilarious (and horrible) when it’s straight people accusing gay people of being homophobic for being opposed to pedophilic ships. Which does happen, unfortunately.)

It’s tempting for people to hold these views because they absolve them of any responsibility or thought about the things they consume. You know, things like “I’m not a bad person for reading dubcon!Master/slave!bondage! Voldemort/Harry fic, you’re a bad person for criticizing me!” However, fiction does impact reality (read about the Jaws Effect for more on that) and these trends can be dangerous- beyond direct grooming, it can actually fuck people up to consume/produce fictional child porn. It can be a stepping stone to more extreme behaviors. We could take a moment to examine a content creator like Shadman, infamous for drawing weird porn that then verged into l0li/sh0ta and then verged into him drawing porn of real celebrity children and having to flee legal action because he was undeniably a pedophile. (He’s also a Nazi, but that’s a different issue).

So all anti means objectively is “anti-some-ship”. But in context, it’s part of a larger intra-community argument about issues like NSFW content of minor characters, minor/adult ships, the appropriateness of adult fandom members interacting with minor fandom members around nsfw content, the appropriateness of creating shipping content of real people, etc. You might have figured out what side I’m on already. My big issue is that while many of these ideas aren’t bad in theory (ship wars are fucking dumb), again and again they end up protecting abusers and pedos and promoting the spread of disgusting pedophilic content throughout a fandom. So you’ll see people who are “anti anti”, who are about defending to death anyone’s right to write or produce or consume anything, even (and especially) fictionalized child porn. People who will mourn the tragedy of a case of abuse happening in fandom but refuse to think critically about the path that led to that.

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