#and trying to invalidate mlms' experiences

[nose-bl]

i have seen people say that "heartstopper is shit because it is made by an aroace woman". and i get the whole ownvoices thing, it's important that people get to tell their own stories. but pretending that heartstopper is immediatly bad and problematic just because the creator of a story focusing on mlm is an aroace person is just ridiculous. the same happened to the writer of simon vs the homosapiens agenda. she was, first of all, harrassed for 'being straight' and she later came out as bi. but ppl still thought she had no buisiness at all writing about a gay man

a lesbian can write a beautiful and meaningful story about a bisexual man, a trans man can write an acurate story about a nonbinary person. every community deserves to tell their own stories, but just bc sometimes other ppl write stories about them doesn't mean these stories are bad and morally wrong and inaccurate

BUT ON TOP OF THAT the producer (patrick walters) and director (euros lynn) of the show are both gay men (and many other people working behind the scenes are queer as well, it's just a bunch of queer ppl). these gay men got to be in charge of directing and producing the show. these people put their visions on this story. this is not a random person trying to guess what the mlm experience is like. alice really does understand it, and they're now working directly with ppl who have that lived experience

also side note can ppl please stop invalidating alice....i've even seen people saying that they're not even queer and shouldn't be writing any queer stories. i saw one post saying something like "she's just an asexual woman who uses sometimes they/them". alice is queer. aromantic and asexual people are queer. and please stop invalidating they/them pronouns and pretending people use those pronouns just for attention

edit: disabling reblogs because the amount of notes overwhelms me lol

#heartstopper #heartstopper netflix #heartstopper tv #heartstopper comic

[gay-otlc]

A take I've noticed among some (not all, not even most, just some) mlm transmascs is the idea that straight transmascs have privilege over them. They acknowledge straight transmascs don't have it easy since we still face transandrophobia, but believe trans + gay is automatically more oppressed than trans + straight.

It might seem like straight transmascs have straight privilege, but we really don't. For one thing, transphobes don't see us as straight. They see us as lesbians. Straight privilege is meaningless if we're not recognized as straight, you know?

For another thing, even if we are seen as straight in spaces where trans people are recognized as their gender, that's not always a privilege. Being straight and queer in queer spaces can be incredibly alienating (an experience we have in common with heteroromantic aces & heterosexual aros).

Also, in these kinds of spaces, the main thing I've experienced as a straight trans man has been the way other queer people will treat me like I'm dangerous to them because I'm a straight man, or like I've betrayed the community by joining the oppressor. Similar to the men-are-evil rhetoric that trans men of all sexualities face, but with a bonus anti-transhet twist. It's not that all men are evil, it's that straight men are evil.

So it might seem like mlm transmascs have the privilege of not being targeted by their fellow queers who think straight men are evil, but that's not a privilege. If this antimasculist rhetoric is only targeting straight men, this is because they (however subconsciously) see gay men as less male than straight men. This is a common component of homophobia against cis men as well. And although this often causes other queer people to see mlm transmascs as less of a threat than straight transmascs, it comes at the expense of being denied access to manhood, a painful experience for many transmascs.

The point I'm trying to make with all these words is that transandrophobia will affect transmascs differently depending on their sexuality, but we all experience transandrophobia and neither of us are really privileged over the other. We should avoid invalidating the other group's oppression, which some members of both groups are guilty of.

#god i spent like an hour trying to word this right #talking about transandrophobia is like walking on fucking eggshells i tell you #transandrophobia #transhet #mlm trans

[multiplicity-positivity]

Here’s some positivity for mlm headmates in mostly wlw systems, and wlw headmates in mostly mlm systems!

(Note: our definitions of mlm and wlw include he/him lesbians, she/her gays, bi/pan lesbians and gays, nonbinary lesbians and gays, and ANYONE else who identifies with the mlm or wlw label!)

System life can be really messy, especially when it comes to sorting each member’s sexual and romantic orientations! For some headmates, it can feel isolating or uncomfortable being the only MLM headmate in a mostly WLW system, or vice versa. This post is for all the headmates who find themselves in this position!

We want you to know that you are a valid and cherished member of your system, regardless of your orientation and how it compares to the rest of your system! We know how isolating it can feel to be the only WLW or MLM member in a system made up of the opposite, but this doesn’t mean you’ll never be able to find love, joy, and others who can accept you for who you are!

It’s okay to feel influenced by the orientations of your system members! It’s okay to feel confused about your orientations, to question for a long time or to experiment with labels as you try to find what works best for you! It’s okay to get your orientation mixed up with another member’s, to not understand your sexuality or romantic attraction, or to feel frustrated that hardly anyone in your system experiences attraction in the same way you do! You’re allowed to explore, to question, to feel your wants and desires to the fullest, and to act on those when safe to do so!

Your identity as MLM in no way invalidates the identities of your WLW headmates, and the same goes for WLW headmates in mostly MLM systems! We promise you are just as queer as the rest of your system, and identifying the way you do doesn’t cause anyone any harm! Please don’t feel guilty for your attraction - something that you can’t choose and is outside of your control! You are a brilliant, shining member of your system just the way you are, orientation included!

Remember MLM-WLW solidarity is for everyone! We hope you and your system can grow and flourish together despite your differing attractions. Even if the way your system identifies means you won’t have the chance to find fulfilling romantic or sexual relationships, we truly hope that you can find joy in your life and ultimately come to terms with how your orientation fits in with your system. Life is never black and white - it is often incredibly complicated, and this is doubly true for those who are plural!

(id in alt text!)

We’re wishing you a future full of love, peace, and kindness from those around you. You are loved, you are an important and vital member of your system, and we are rooting for you in all that you do! Thanks for reading, and please show yourself some self-compassion today!

(Image ID:) A pale orange userbox with a cluster of multicolored flowers for the userbox image. The border and text are both dark orange, and the text reads “all plurals can interact with this post!” (End ID.)

#multiplicity #pluralgang #plurality #actuallyplural #system positivity #plural positivity #plural pride #system pride #mlm #wlw

[mlmshark]

Introduction to Mlmshark

Info:

Oliver, 17 yrs, trans male, gay/vincian

This is my account where I ramble about being gay and talk about my experiences as a queer man

And now because apparently I have to add this:

‼️PROSHIP AND RADQUEER DNI‼️ ‼️I AM A VICTIM OF PEDOPHILIA AND CSA I DO NOT WANT YOU HERE YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE‼️

This isn't an nsfw account, but it is 17+ so I can be more mature without worrying about younger followers like I have on my other accounts

Fanfic acc: @sharkboywrites (dead) art acc @sharkboyoli

I will give out my discord, but only to mutuals who ask

more info below, including boundaries please read before sending messages

This is an mlm blog

I use the labels I use/are comfortable with trans man, transmasc, gay, vincian, achillean, aroace, aromantic, greyromantic (more specific way of describing my romantic attraction) and asexual

I am autistic (maybe, I just got tested and am still waiting on results atm), and I have a horror and pokemon special interests (please talk to me about them plsplsplspls)

My pronouns are strictly he/him, but I'm not sure about neos, feel free to use them on me it doesn't bother me

Anyone can interact regardless of sexuality or ender identity, I prefer the people who are my mutuals to be 17+, but younger people can like my posts and ask me questions. I won't follow back anyone under 17.

The main point of this account is to have somewhere to talk about being gay and find more gay people to have a community with it.

For a long time and even sometimes to this day I've been shamed for my identity, so I want my own space to be an openly gay trans man with no hate and find other people in my community. I'm also still exploring myself and the world as a trans man, despite being out for six years, and this is my space to talk about it.

Boundaries

No proshippers, radqueers, zoophiles, etc.

No racism or ablesim, this is a space for all gay men/nblm regardless

My mutuals need to be 17 or older, I may be more mature at times, but not to the point of full nsfw

Do not send me nsfw asks unless they're questions about the queer experience ( for ex. asking about my experience, how to know, about my asexuality, and life as a gay/trans man are fine)

Don't send me/tag me in nsfw posts

Don't try to be homophobic or transphobic, I'll just block you

No shaming me or other people for liking men, even if you're also queer

Don't come onto my posts complaining about how you hate men

Don't try to compare my experiences with other queer people/try to make it the oppression Olympics

Don't complain to me about gay labels or flags

Don't try to invalidate anyone who interacts with this account that identifies as gay, even if you think they don't count (transmasc gay, tranfem gay, genderfluid gay, etc.)

Generally don't bring any discourse

You're free to vent in my asks if it's related to being gay or transgender, this account is for people to find community, just try not to make people uncomfortable

Don't call me the f or t slur unless you know I'm okay with it, even when I call myself it

As you can tell, this is mostly an nsfw neutral account, I'm okay with talking about it in the non- horny sense or now. this acc may be more open to it as time goes on (probably as I get older and experience more things), but for now: no <3

That's it, feel free to interact, i'd love to find some gay people in the community that I can ramble with and be a man kisser with :)

#gay #mlm #t4t mlm #mlm yearning #mlm thoughts #gay mlm #queer yearning #achillean #mlm t4t #nblm #mlm blog #trans mlm #trans man #transmasc #mlm love #t4t

[redtail-lol]

Interrupting my flag posting to remind people of something because I saw not nice things trying to find a faunic lesbian flag before making my own

Other people using a microlabel doesn't undermine your experience

Other people using an alternate label doesn't undermine your experience

They're not insulting you, telling you that your label is wrong, or claiming the label you use is somehow dirty.

Lesbian is inclusive of nonbinary people. Trixic is still a valid label for nonbinary people who want to emphasize they are not women and/or are not comfortable being called lesbians. It does not invalidate nonbinary lesbians. Trixic and lesbian can be used together or someone may choose to only identify as one or the other. They do not invalidate each other

Same goes for Vincian/Veldian/Turian/Cinthean/other equivalents. I'm gonna say veldian because it sounds nicest. Veldian js inclusive of nonbinary people. Toric is still a valid label for nonbinary people that want to emphasize they are not men. It doesn't invalidate nonbinary veldians and it may or may not be used in combination with veldian.

This also goes for faunic and floric. Faunic and floric are valid terms. They do not invalidate lesbian and veldian. Both lesbian and veldian have wlw and mlm connotations even if they're not strictly limited to those people, and it's okay to want a term without those connotations. It's okay to use faunic and lesbian or floric and veldian if you wanna specify your attraction is broader than the wlw or mlm relationships commonly associated with those labels

Being a full-moon springtide lunian/bi lesbian/omni lesbian or a summertime solian/bi veldian/omni veldian does not invalidate lesbians and veldians who are also technically mspec but would rather just identify as lesbians or veldians. I wanna be specific about the genders I'm attracted to being inherently mspec even without including both binary genders. You don't have to. I'm not forcing you to.

Being a lilaean or violaen also doesn't invalidate strictly wlw or mlm lesbians or veldians that don't use the microlabels. They're just being specific about their attraction because they want to.

If you don't wanna use a microlabel, don't. Stop trying to tell others we should just call ourselves lesbians or veldians because we're a lot more than that.

#shit exclus say #mspec turian #mspec veldian #mspec gay #mspec lesbian #mspec lesbian safe #mspec vincian #mspec gay safe #mspec veldian safe #pro microlabels #faunic #daunic #trixic #toric #floric #pro bi lesbian #pro mspec gay #pro mspec lesbian #mogai positivity #mogai safe #pro mogai #mogai friendly #mogai

[spacelazarwolf]

re: gen z queers being deranged, I follow a youtuber who has a disinformation campaign against him (ki/wi fa/rm/ers and 4cha/nners fucking hate his ass) and it's really goddamn frustrating because as a gen z queer, seeing my peers fall for it hook line and sinker is really goddamn frustrating because they latch onto any excuse to bully or harass someone they find annoying and invalidate them and a large part of this hate campaign is discrediting his sexuality as an mlm. and some really reactionary fucks have planted the seed that he's a liar and "queerbaiter" who's "pretending to be gay" to lure queer people into his audience and I see fellow queer people fall for it wholesale and regurgitate it and it's like NO! STOP! YOU'RE DOING THE HATE CAMPAIGN FOR THE FASCISTS! THEY BARELY EVEN GOTTA TRY BECAUSE YOU FELL FOR THEIR BAIT!! and a lot of the justification they use is the fact he's a cis guy with masculine expression so he "can't" be mlm or he's just lying about it and like Wow okay so we're just evolving backwards huh? anyways I'd love if we stopped narrowly categorizing each other and policing anyone who doesn't fit their idea of gay, or use their forms of privilege in one way to pretend their marginalization in another doesn't exist (they don't cancel each other out!!) or accept that people we dislike can Also be queer, queerness isn't morals, or also to stop believing every shoddy half assed callout you ever hear about a queer person like. we're basically doing the fascists' policing for them internally and for free. stop that!

REAL!!!! PEOPLE!!!! CANNOT!!!!! QUEERBAIT!!!! OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and like. this isn't to say that adults don't ever participate in this because holy fuck they absolutely do, but there's just something about baby gays that are in their teens and early twenties where it's just this sweet spot of lack of life experience paired with zero impulse control that creates this absolute mess that is most queer discourse. it's exhausting.

#ask avishai

[lighthousegod]

Recently, my cis lesbian roommate made a comment about "he/theys" that kinda stuck with me. She said these people, on her dating app, were matching with her and ignoring that she had lesbian in her bio.

We'd had convos about whether trans mascs and trans men could be lesbians (im a transmasc person, but not a lesbian, although ive identified with the label before), and I'm all for he/him lesbians and trans men who are lesbians- I've researched, I know Stone Butch Blues, I don't think telling anyone they can or can't be anything is right.

So this sorta stuck with me. I went, "but. They probably identify as nonbinary if they use they, and even if they don't, trans guys sometimes ID as lesbians too." And she was like "well, but I'm not attracted to masculine people." And I brought up that she does usually like butch lesbians (who definitely use other pronouns besides she/her sometimes!), and she sorta brushed me off, saying there was a different "vibe" between transmascs who use he/they and butches (even though they... sometimes are the transmascs she's talking about???)

So I was like "well, do you have 'looking for femmes' in your bio or something?"

"No."

"Then how are they supposed to know??"

"I don't know it's just my preference!!"

It was super. Odd. I should say, my roommate is cis but uses she/he pronouns. She is, in fact, a lesbian who uses he/him sometimes, as he identifies as bigender *but not a man, ever.

I just find this all so confusing. I mean, let's think about it, fr.

So the popular idea today is that lesbians cannot be men, so trans men can't be lesbians.

Now, here's what that implies: if trans men can't be lesbians, then they are always in the same category as cis men. Now, of course, some trans men ARE in that category, usually binary trans men- and they're all men, right, so every man is under that umbrella. But still, gender isn't so simple. Trans men and transmascs have vastly different experiences between each other and especially cis men. This isn't to do with internal identity, but outward perception. Regardless of whether I'm a man or not, the world has seen me as a woman all my life. That makes it very hard to be accepted and comfortable in mlm spaces, especially when theres so much transphobia in the cis gay community. Plenty of trans men are stealth, or simply have a supportive community, and are welcomed like a cis man would be. But that's not the case for everyone, and not every trans man WANTS to be treated in the same way a cis man might.

But whatever, okay, let's go with that. Trans men are men and lesbian means non-man attracted to non-man, so they're not included cause it's invalidating to (some) trans men, regardless of if they've identified with the label lesbian for years or feel unsafe in mlm spaces bc of how overwhelmingly cis they can be, or whatever else.

So... what about nonbinary men, then? Nonbinary women seem to be accepted, not just nb fems but those who identify as both nonbinary AND a woman- so why are nonbinary men not?

"Because they have man in their identity and lesbians can't like men"

So.. what about bigender people? People who are both men AND women. They can't be lesbians? I guess not.

But let's say they can, and we're just excluding binary trans men from the term lesbian..

People often bring up "would you accept a cis man identifying as a lesbian?" As an arguing point here. Bringing it back to my original point, would you accept a "he/they"? What if they were amab, and had no interest in transitioning? Or a transmasc person who DID? I just saw a transfem lesbian saying she couldn't possibly let trans men with full beards into lesbian spaces as it was transphobic and wrong- aren't there transfem lesbians who don't want to shave or get their face lasered? What do sex characteristics have to do with it? I thought we were trying to avoid labels based on that sort of thing.

So at the end of the day, I guess it really is about the label of "man." What's that even mean? That's literally just a word. I'm so confused.

[genderqueerdykes]

kinda vent-ish? //

im an abrosexual and bigender, and most of my life i identity as an MLM trans man. but occasionally, i identify as a girl and WLW (meaning the femininity of my bigenderism and the lesbianism of my abrosexuality have synced up).

it makes me really insecure because i worry if it appears to invalidate my experience as a lesbian. only hours ago i was feeling like a bisexual man, and now i feel like a lesbian. i have a lesbian friend who says that she thinks it’s weird, like i’m sexualizing WLW by only occasionally feeling as if i identify as one.

do you have any suggestions? this is really eating me up and i want to be able to feel proud of myself no matter how i’m currently identifying

no disrespect to your lesbian friend, but i think her comment was weird and also rude

lesbianism is not about chasing away men or excluding men, masculine or male identifying people. it's okay if you identify as a man sometimes, or even if you did all the time. it does not take away from the fact that you are a lesbian at times, and you being a lesbian does not take away from you being a man. lesbians can, do, and have always had a complex relationship with gender. butches especially have always had a complicated relationship with gender

people have been trying to chase butches and lesbians with male and masculine genders out of the community for quite a while, but we're not going anywhere. you're not weird. it's not weird to be multigender, or abrosexual. it's not weird to be bigender. it's not weird to have this experience. it's just who you are. it's a state of being and it's not a threat to anyone

any type of "men are bad/men do not belong in lesbian spaces/men need to be as far away from lesbians as humanly possible/etc." rhetoric is political lesbianism and/or lesbian separatism and it's not worth your time. even if your friend meant no harm, the ideology is harmful and has its roots in chasing butches, transsexual, intersex, and other lesbians with complex genders out of the community, so it's not worth your time. be who you are, don't let someone else dictate your experience. it'll bounce around in your head for a while, but at the end of the day, you know who you are

take care of yourself, if you need anything else, feel free to come back any time. i think you're cool as fuck, take care of yourself

#asks #answers #bigender #lesbian #bisexual

[shopcat]

how do you feel about transfem steve in general? I admit as a transfem-ish nb person myself I really enjoy projecting myself onto Steve but I mostly have to restrict myself to enjoying art and my friends creations because so much of it is like. the extreme of the baby girl twink bottom boy waif steve fetishization trend to eddies bad boy s&m gay sex master. it's like people can't acknowledge that mlm in the 80s could be gnc and not transfem, and that steve could retain his personality and not be a blushing virginal archetype the minute he puts on some makeup

OH in general i think it's awesome like Fuck Yes transgender right. i love the idea and i love all trans hcs but especially for steve and i think it's also really cool that a lot of people do like it because in my experience in the past people r far more unreceptive out of just like transmisogyny.. :( like it's cool how open people are TO the idea it's just sometimes the idea sucks ass when someone is doing it with ill intention or ignorance 😭

i've talked about this a little i honestly think 😭 there is just a huge problem with casual transmisogyny in the st fandom and it's dressed up as like, inclusivity?? bc it will not be outright blatant bigotry it's the weird insidiously needling things or like, genuine fetishisation or like that weird shit where people have eddie say transfem steve is his "exception" but he's gay (when eddie is not ... gay. so they're making him gay to insert this weird roadblock and it comes off uncomfortable it is not as coolpillbasedawesome as people assume it is... sexuality can be fluid and change especially in the wake of gender and identity shifting and growing with a relationship but people can't actually apply that needed depth and complexity in a 30 word wordcount lame headcanon post or 2 second comic it just comes off that eddie sees her as a boy or otherwise invalidating tbh!!). and tbh one of the largest aspects from my perspective at least of the reason the hc became popular over on st twitter is because the nsfw artists got really into the "trend" just making blatant trans fetish content as people will Always do but like god that's just depressing 😭😭 that it was even called a trend is concerning in the first place to be honest but i guess that's just a semantics thing..

and yeah i think ur absolutely right :0 i think one time i said um like it's really clear when people who are making this harmful content (albeit out of ignorance and not malicious intention) will be doing it as an extension of steve being the ultimate subby blushing baby girl and if the starting line for a trans headcanon is someone's FEMINISATION KINK that's just plain concerning :( going hand in hand with shipping her with robin i think it's just fucking weird to go as far as you can to try and get stobin to date and they're always making her a trans girl TO date robin as the crux of it and never ... just to be a person. with autonomy. then they think it's like awesome and validating her gender because robin sees her as a woman but like ?? 😭 why wouldn't she. i don't know it's just weird to me to use robin's sexuality as a prop like that on top of the fact it implies robin's sexuality is "in the way" of them having feelings for each other... yuck. like even if i understand the angle to go against what a lot of tma people have spoken out against (the... iffiness of headcanoning a male character as a trans girl from the perspective of a tme person no matter their intention) to specifically do that to those two in particular is so STRANGE and then every single time someone goes this is weird they're like "well you just think robin wouldn't date her cuz she's not a real girl" like omg you're soooo stupid like rocks in your fucking brain. even if steve was a cis girl they wouldn't date also why r they never going Yesss transfem nancy or vickie or fucking chrissy or whoever they ship her with now like it's TRANSPARENT. anyway.

other than that i think it's a really fun & cool thing !!! :) if they're made responsibly especially if like you said it comes from a place of empathetic projection let alone from someone actually transfem it's so fun & cool i honestly think a big problem IS that tme people are spearheading it and end up perpetuating harmful ideals and honestly as one myself i don't even know if i can identify it all but i try my best to at least be like Hey guys... 😭. but it sucks when something fun so connected w peoples irl identities and senses of selves like that is taken by fandom and like strangled to death U_U. i have a lot of free floating little steve's in my mind and i really i suppose enjoy..? both the transmasc and transfem experience 4 him i can see it in both ways and it rules + with the stipulation that like. transfem ofc doesn't equal binary trans it's just a sweeping term or that all tma people ARE transfem etc etc so he is transfem a lot of the time just by virtue of it and It Rules. it rules. honestly this answer ended up more airing my frustrations again i'm sorry 😭😭 Basically i love transfem steve in all manner of expression... from genderfluidity to bigender identity to he/she realness to the outright trans girl coolness and i also love seperately from that hc him being just a little fun with it like u said. gnc steve one of the most beautiful things in the world. insert a how i look with he/him in my bio picture here.

#asks #honestly maybe i'm just seeing all the lame stuff i dunno :( #i think from the census of my mind most people tend for the generally nonbinary hc for him then anything outright transfem then eveyrhing #else which is cool actually. i'm not making a statement or anything here i just think it's cool it's popular LOL #sorry if i've overstepped or anything by the way i have just been feeling truly awful about the state of the World on here lately #and i think it goes without saying i would rather claw my own trachea out than intentionally ignore things i notice like this bc like #i dunno not that no one else is saying it cuz they are it's just how is it still HAPPPEENINGGGG . i want all my transfem friends and #girlfriends and wifes to be Experience life as awesome eben in . strangest things #sts

[vintage-bentley]

Hey there! You are very right about the homophobic fandom and I absolutely agree with you there.

It just bothers me that, like in your satiric text, you make afab gay men seem like an exaggeration for being afab, and that you kinda ridicule and bad-label trans people in general. That’s… kinda not okay. ^^“

As a trans person who doesn’t support the gay erasure in the fandom either, even supports the counter side, it kinda hurts to be dragged into the role of the bad ones when literally not being on their side.

There are also a lot of cis+binary people invalidating gay allo men, you know?

It’s not supposed to be hate, just please don’t generalize/attack people who aren’t doing anything wrong!

I'm going to be honest, anon, I stared at this for a good minute trying to figure out if you're being satirical or serious. I'm going to treat this as if you're being serious so I'm sorry if you're trying to joke around and I didn't catch on lol.

First of all, I'm glad we can agree on fandom being homophobic. But I think we're in disagreement over who is the target of this homophobia, and what a gay man/person is.

I'm guessing that this is the satiric text you're referencing, and specifically this line;

I read so much mlm fanfic it’s unreal. And that helped me discover that I’m literally a gay man (afab) so I literally can’t be homophobic???

(And yes, I have seen multiple women cite fanfiction written by women for women as how they "discovered" they're a "gay man")

To be clear, I am absolutely ridiculing the concept of "afab gay men" and those who consider themselves such. Because it's ridiculous! Gay men are male homosexuals. They are men who were born men, and born to love men.

Saying that heterosexual females can claim the label of gay man is homophobic and incredibly disrespectful to gay people (especially gay men). It diminishes the experience of actual gay men and treats the word "gay" as something you can identify into by changing your pronouns, instead of a word to describe the exclusive same sex attraction of homosexuals. Note: this exclusive same sex attraction is the baseline requirement for being gay, and it is something "afab gay men" do not experience. They are females attracted to males. Heterosexual. And before you try to say that being gay is actually same gender attraction...it's homosexual, not homogenderal. "afab gay men" are taking a word/term that doesn't belong to or describe them, and claiming it for themselves. This all quickly leads to the whole "gay men must be open to dating females (’afabs’) or they're transphobic" debate, which is just conversion therapy rhetoric in pretty packaging. 

Understandably, as a lesbian I have a huge problem with straight people not only using and appropriating the language gay people use for ourselves, but then taking it one step further and demanding we play along. It’s “kind of not okay” that I ridicule the people who do this? It’s very not okay that they’re pretending to be gay in the first place. Their blatant lack of respect for homosexuals and our sexuality is extremely not okay.

I'd recommend this speech by MrMenno, or really any of his content covering this topic, if you want to hear it from the mouth of a gay man.

I will say that I don't mean to badmouth trans people in general, since I'm sure there's some trans people out there who aren't buying into the sexism and homophobia that the majority of their community sells. However, I am badmouthing the community for that reason; that it's wildly homophobic and sexist. I feel the need to call that out and be clear about where it's coming from. If trans people want to do that themselves, they’re more than welcome. But currently, it’s being left to gay people to defend ourselves.

Also, I think it's important to note that my being critical of gender ideology means I don't follow the same ideology that the trans community does. Making fun of the concept of "this heterosexual female is a gay man" is the same for me as making fun of the concept that "Jesus our saviour is the son of god".

I'm sorry that you feel hurt that you're being lumped in with The Bad Ones. But the very fact that you believe there is such thing as an "afab (female/woman) gay man" tells me that you are perpetuating the exact homophobic rhetoric that I take issue with. It's good that you can acknowledge and be against some forms of homophobia, but you need to be against all forms of homophobia. That includes being against heterosexuals claiming they're gay.

If you don’t want to be seen by many gay people as one of the bad ones, Stop claiming that women can be gay men, and that gay people like myself should not speak up against the notion that they can. Stop expecting gay people to be okay with heterosexuals appropriating our language and experiences. 

"There are also a lot of cis+binary people invalidating gay allo men, you know?"

Now you're not even speaking my language lol. I don't use the word cis or allo, and "validation" isn't the problem. Gay people aren't like the trans community; we don't need constant validation. We just need people to stop being homophobic, and to start respecting homosexuality.

You say this isn't supposed to be hate, yet you're telling me, a lesbian, that I need to stop calling out heterosexuals who call themselves gay because apparently they aren’t doing anything wrong. But appropriating homosexuality for the sake of one's "identity" is doing something wrong. Saying there's such thing as an "afab gay man" is wrong. Expecting homosexuals to let heterosexuals walk all over us while claiming to be one of us is wrong. I'm going to continue attacking homophobic rhetoric, and continue making fun of heterosexuals who pretend to be something they aren’t. 

#thank you for being polite at least #asks #anon #my ramblings

[mothwithapencil]

What's your issue with with mspec folks? Not trying to be mean or anything, I just barely understand what mspec means myself. And to me it's one of those things where I'm like Well people are allowed to have identities I don't understand.

No hate, I'm just trying to understand if this is a thing I should be advocating against or something.

Im not too interested in discourse around this, and people are of course allowed to identify however they want. Being mspec (meaning multisexual spectrum, like bi, pan, omni, etc) is fine. I disagree with combining that with labels like lesbian, not because the experience itself is invalid, but the wording and thought process is problematic. Here's my two cents, coming from a nonbinary lesbian. More under the cut because its a complex topic with a lot of angles

Using a label like "bi lesbian" as an example, heres some of the arguments I've seen for and against it:

1. "I'm attracted to women and nonbinary people, so I must be a a bisexual lesbian" → lesbianism includes anyone that isn't a man and isn't attracted to men, so that definition isn't really necessary

2. "I'm a bisexual woman attracted to everyone, but i have a strong preference for women, so that also makes me a lesbian" → having a lean towards a certain gender doesn't make you less bisexual, so its unnecessary again

3. "Im a biromantic homosexual enby, so im a bi lesbian" → this just comes down to lesbianism = not being a guy and not being into guys. Your identity is fine, but lesbian wouldn't really be the best or most fitting label

4. "My gender and sexuality is fluid and bisexual lesbian fits me best" → I don't know you or your experience. I do know that a label like "lesbian" isn't completely fluid and there may be better, more technically fitting labels. But you do you, I'm not here to tell you how to identify, its just a matter of labels I disagree with.

5. "I'm a bisexual lesbian because i like cis AND trans women!" → Oh man.

Furthermore, you'll see mspec people and lesbians/gays say the label is harmful because:

1. It implies that lesbians can be attracted to men (harmful because men have tried to push themselves in lesbian spaces for forever, or try to change their minds, and a bunch of other nasty shit. Lesbians just aren't attracted to men. Not every label is fluid), and the other way around for gay mlm/nblm

2. It indirectly pushes mspec people into a binary. "You're a bi woman with a fem preference, youre actually a lesbian. Youre a pan guy with a male lean, you're actually just gay" kind of stuff.

Again, anyone can identify how they want. I just disagree with the choice of labels. Im not going to police anyone about it. Everyone is going to have a slightly different definition, everyone's going to have different viewpoints. I have my viewpoints and i curate my online experience around it. There's many more talking points around this but this us just the main things i can bring up while typing this at 2am

#again im not interested in debate and discourse so please don't come for me in my asks

[florallylly]

warning: i rant

imo fanfic and shipping is FANTASY and wish fulfillment which is SO okay and valid. and i an avid consumer of fanfic am obviously not going to disagree with people fulfilling their fantasies bc that's literally what fanfiction and fandom spaces are for.

HOWEVER putting your opinions online opens you up to criticism and it's also completely valid for other fans to point out discrepancies according to the canon work. bc at some point, fanfic becomes a completely different thing and the characters are unrecognizable.

and that's fine but understandably something people would find issue with, especially people who hold canon dear to heart. there's like two camps (with people in between but) which are like those who take the bare bones and IMAGE of the characters and setting and those who try to adhere to canonical depictions.

to also be noted, it can be frustrating for those who want to read canonical depictions to be having to comb through pages and pages of fic to find one that isn't pure wish fulfillment. neither camp really has an excuse to criticize the act of putting those fantasies out there, but criticism regarding characterization and the lack of recognition for the source material MAKES SENSE. so keep that in mind

though once again pointing out media literacy and how every interpretation is different and built on the viewer's personal experience and perceptions.

i do notice that in mlm ships, there is a lot of feminization of the bottom. it makes sense BC it's wish fulfillment. maybe it might not seem like it, but it's the fantasy of having two hot guys and often the bottom is more of a surrogate for the author/reader. bc a lot of mlm fic is written by straight women. to reiterate WISH FULFILLMENT

and also, a lot of media does prioritize the characterization of male characters over female ones which means it's a lot easier to analyze and theorize more in depth.

now my gripes: this doesn't mean that female characters should be villainized. i get how people want to make canon love interests no longer an option or up the angst, but why not include a completely new character. you could relegate the love interest to simply a friend or someone who used to have a crush on them. there's so many possibilities other than writing out a female character to have some kind of vendetta for being rejected.

not going to say that sometimes people aren't vengeful bc i certainly am, but if a character is so far off from their canon depiction... once again, it's open to criticism.

and making the love interest a lesbian or wlw can be valid, but at least make it make sense rather than just having two attractive women together to keep them out of the way. DOES THIS EVEN MAKE SENSE

like yeah i'm talking about ro//nance bc i have opinions on it. (not invalidating people who ship it, just stating my personal opinion on it) and i do prefer canon over some fanon

so either way, respect people's choices BUT also respect people's right to comment their views on your work, obviously, do provide constructive criticism or your own commentary in a respectful way, or just block people that don't agree with you.

personally, i choose to not comment on other people's work bc i KNOW i have harsh words, so i'll make my own post which others can ignore. at that point, it's their choice whether or not to block me and my content.

so don't try to police other people's content. UNLESS. they are being profoundly misogynistic, racist, transphobic, etc etc. which is in fact prevalent within the mlm fanfic community and it's UNDENIABLE. and it's further pushing the agenda that coed friendships aren't possible unless they aren't attracted to each other.

bc in doing so, you're not just pushing an agenda that makes no canonical sense, but you're also degrading the character that you claim to love so much.

again again these are my opinions and what i choose not to consume. i won't complain about it in fics i read bc i CHOOSE to read them DESPITE my hang ups. that's on me (but also bc i'd lose a good chunk of content) note: it's also possible to simply skip over the parts that you don't like. no one is going to crucify you for that

here's the thing though. taking your opinion and then twisting canon and posting it as your reasoning behind your fic and headcanons. OBVIOUSLY there's going to be criticism.

and i'm not counting subtext and actual chemistry between actors bc that's Proof. that's something that can be seen and felt and happened in canon.

just like. just like. a consideration into how you treat women in mlm fan spaces and how they're either villains or wlw. there's so rarely an in between and . idk that's sad to me.

this is also prevalent in other media, so i'm not going to say it's not a societal issue bc it is and smth smth sociological theory i won't go into. i know AND i consume as a woman, but i'm able to actually reflect and say "that's not right" i am under no illusions that media is unable to be criticized

like even this ! it can be criticized it can be skipped it can be ignored. and idc about being flamed bc TRUST me when i say i've had worse. it's my personal opinion i'm putting out into the world and that's the consequence

#unforch i'm anti ro//nance #i don't understand why we ignore canon love interests who are RIGHT THERE in favor of . gosh idek that actually goes against what i said #bc its wish fulfillment #but i also feel like i want to get my thoughts out there bc it's been festering for so long #i just think that in doing so #it's completely brushing off steve and his feelings #and the deepness of the relationship that robin and steve have #just. my thoughts

[thatonemouseykid]

I don’t know if I’m right or if people are ready to consider this but I find it interesting

So I put this in the tags of one of my other posts (which got a lot of attention, like wow, thank you) but I thought I might as well make an actual post about it too.

I think sex positivity and repulsion could be applied to non-aspec people, specifically people who are not attracted to all genders (i.e. I’m not really talking about people who are bi, omni, pan)

For example, take a straight woman, one who is genuinely only sexually attracted to men. 

I think it would be possible for her to be repulsed by sex with other women, have a neutral attitude towards it or enjoy it, and still be straight.

Just like an asexual can be repulsed by sex (with anyone), be neutral towards it or enjoy it.

I am not allosexual so I cannot prove this, but I do think it is possible.

(Also this can be applied to gay men having sex with women, straight men have sex with men, trixic people having sex with men etc etc etc)

I am not saying they couldn’t be closeted or whatever but they wouldn’t have to be. I think some of us are getting to be pretty good at realising that action and attraction aren’t the same with ace people, I just think it would be good to apply the same logic to allos.

#asexual #ace #asexuality #sex positive #sex positivity #sex repulsed #sex repulsion #aspec #look if im entirely out of my depth please tell me and ill delete this #but i keep seeing that one video being like men can have sex with men and not be gay getting hate #and i do think that guy was speaking from a place of ignorance #and trying to invalidate mlms' experiences #it just made me think a lot

[marshalortegamoved]

Have you ever seen how cis women treat mlm? It is not strange for queer men to be wary of them

While I understand where you're coming from, this comeback isn't actually focused in on what I was talking about. What you're bringing up here is a totally different, equally valid issue, but not the one I was commenting on. There is absolutely a problem of (usually cishet) women fetishizing mlm and their relationships, designating them as the Gay Best Friend, etc. etc. -- I'm not negating any of that. Queer men absolutely have a reason to be unsettled by this, and uncomfortable with it. My point was specifically in regards to the way that queer men can still express misogyny in how they talk about women, and their lack of attraction to women. These two things can co-exist at once.

Straight women with a weird fascination with mlm exist. At the same time, that doesn't absolve queer men of their propensity toward misogyny. For example; reducing women down to their "parts" (not being "into pussy", which is also incredibly transphobic, but anyways), speaking of women in a derogatory way, so on and so forth. mlm are not exempt from misogyny by virtue of being queer. Stating that cis mlm still benefit from being men is redundant, but must be stated. It's not wariness I'm talking about, or the obvious pressure mlm will also face to be attracted to women in heteronormative cultures, I'm talking specifically about a certain way of speaking toward and about women that is clearly rooted in misogynistic ideas and thought. Most of us have internalized misogyny to some extent growing up, and it's as much mlm's job to deconstruct their possible preconceived misogyny as it is anyone's. This is a vicious cycle of the internet recreating issues because it can't not recreate misogyny in new, gen z-esque formats.

#I'm not interested in an extended debate on anon about this; if you'd like to dm me I'd be happy to have a #conversation on it #At no point do I want to invalidate mlm's experiences irt cishet women being strange; the same way #I wouldn't want someone to invalidate my own experiences as a wlw (not a girl but you know) #But you're not addressing my actual point; you're going off into a side discussion #I'm not talking about understandable wariness; that's a whole other conversation #My post was fairly offhand and sparked BY seeing people (both mlm and not!) being Very Weird #about the possibility of some men being bi rather than gay; as if their bi-ness would lessen their queerness #Anyways; I'm not trying to be rude or attack you here. I do UNDERSTAND your point. But it's not relative #to what I was talking about #Unless you're trying to say that mlm being casually misogynistic is justified #d/n/r #discourse / #ask to tag / #misogyny / #augh???

[intersexfairy]

i hope all trans people who used to identify as mlm/wlw who still have a connection to the mlm/wlw community are having a good day.

you don't need to throw away or hide that connection. you're allowed to feel the way you do, especially if these communities meant a lot to you and were what you needed at that time. and you're still allowed to find solidarity with these communities and remain part of/in contact with them!

none of this makes your gender invalid. you also don't have to say you were never your assigned gender if that doesn't feel true to you. you never have to fit into a box. the trans experience is varied and wonderful. dont let anyone try to tell you otherwise.

#ifairy #lgbt+ #lgbtq+ #lgbt #lgbtq #trans positivity #trans mlm #trans wlw #mlm #wlw #nblm #nblw #trans pride #trans community #nonbinary #genderqueer #nonbinary positivity #transmasc #transfem #queer community #queer #queer pride #lgbt positivity #nb positivity #transmasculine #transfeminine #transgender #trans

[peachdoxie]

Okay look. This is a complex topic so bear with me before you get your pitchforks, but behavior ≠ orientation.

What this means is that engaging in a sexual behavior is not a 1:1 correlation with sexual orientation. Two men having sex does not mean either man is attracted to other men. The same goes for romantic behavior and romantic orientation, though romance is more complicated because a large part of it is a socially constructed performance.

The point is: behaviors do not have static meanings. Their meanings depend on the specific contexts in which they take place, including how the people involved – however broad "involved" is – interpret those behaviors. This should be fairly straightforward to comprehend with the example of a lesbian having sex with the man she married before she realized she wasn't attracted to men. If you can understand this context, then you can understand that the same applies to all people regardless of orientation.

Of course, the fact that behavior ≠ orientation does not exist in a neutral context, so there is a higher likelihood that sexual/romantic behavior is correlated with orientation, especially when the behavior is associated with a marginalized orientation like homosexuality, bisexuality, asexuality, etc, and their equivalent romantic orientations. In the United States, two men performing romance or engaging in sexual behaviors are far more likely to be mlm than not because of how sex between men is stigmatized. The same applies to other genders.

However, while I understand and accept that behavior is more often than not an indication of orientation, it is still very important to me as an acearo woman that the connection between behavior and orientation remains flexible and open to interpretation when it comes to media representation of relationships that are not made explicitly queer in the text itself. I also believe that this connection should be flexible when it comes to behaviors in person as well because of how it breaks down heteronormativity and amatonormativity, but since I have no right to declare someone's orientation based on their behavior, this discussion is only relevant to media representation for the time being.

As an acearo woman, the kind of relationship representation that matters most to me is one that is shown to be deeply emotional intimate to the point of near-exclusivity, like you might find in a sexual or romantic pairing, but one that is not sexual or romantic in nature. It is especially important to me when this kind of relationship is not superceded by a sexual or romantic relationship, which is extremely common in amatonormative media.

I explicitly focus here on relationships where the exact nature is never made canon and never explicitly shows sexual behavior or behavior strongly associated with romance, such as candlelit dinners or bouquets of roses, because of the fact that these relationships are open to interpretation by each individual audience member. This means that my interpretation of a relationship as non-sexual and non-romantic is equally as valid as an interpretation where it is sexual and/or romantic.

However, from my experience on Tumblr, relationships like the ones I'm describing are overwhelmingly seen as sexual and/or romantic. It is a source of deep frustration for me that a relationship I value for its potential as non-sexual and non-romantic is constantly shipped otherwise, leaving me feeling like the only person who values my interpretation. It is extremely lonely at times.

With that said, I rarely comment on this subject for all that I think about it because I understand that competing representation needs are an integral aspect of media consumption. While I find value in the non-sexual, non-romantic interpretation, other people find value in the sexual and/or romantic interpretation, and neither interpretation means the other is invalid or without importance. I understand this and accept this and mostly keep my mouth shut as the minority opinion, since nothing I say will magically bring more people valuing my interpretation into being.

What matters here, though, is the other reason why I rarely talk about this part of fandom, and that's that when I have, I have been called homophobic for claiming that a relationship other people read as sexual and/or romantic can also be read as non-sexual and non-romantic and that that interpretation is equally as valid.

I understand, of course, that many people are used to seeing erasure of (sexual/romantic) queer relationships coming from a place of bigotry, and so I try not to take it personally when people get mad at me. This brings me to the ultimate point of this post, and that is that criticisms of the preponderance of sexual and romantic interpretations – amatonormativity and its sexual counterpart – in fandom that come from ace/aro perspectives are not the same as criticisms coming from a place of bigotry. This does not preclude, of course, bigotry that comes from ace/aro people, but many ace/aro people are not coming from places of bigotry when I have seen similar posts.

Ultimately, I know that this post won't make a difference in the balance between non-sexual, non-romantic interpretations and sexual/romantic interpretations, since different kinds of representation matter to different people, and I am not about to ask people to change their representation needs to fit mine. But I do wish that people who read this post consider critiques from ace/aro people on the amatonormative and sexual-normative aspects of fandom as valid instead of immediately trying to shut us down for being homophobic.

#anecdotes by peachdoxie