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justanotherwriter140 · 2 months

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Kung Fu Panda 4 - The Movie

The last really, really long discussion post (for now).

Major spoilers ahead!

This review is full of spoilers, so please refrain from reading through it until you've watched KFP4. I would highly suggest doing so, as I want everyone to form their own opinions without my influence. The movie has its flaws (some of which admittedly being a bit distracting), but it's a fun film that has things to offer.

Kung Fu Panda 4 is a fun movie (take that as you will) that takes its audience on an action-packed, surprisingly funny, yet relatively contained adventure on which Po doesn't really do much. It's an inconsequential, safe sequel that doesn't really hurt the franchise but adds close to nothing.

I had a good time watching the movie. It was obviously produced with its theater experience in mind and the action scenes especially reflected that priority. The humor was actually funny sometimes and I enjoyed Po and Zhen's dynamic. During the film, I was able to put most (most!) of my grievances aside and take the movie for what it is. I've discovered that the best way to watch KFP4 is with low expectations and an open mind.

I have a lot of things to say about KFP4, both complaints and compliments (though the former might be taking the forefront in this review), and I hope this review can help those of you who have seen the movie organize your thoughts. I've been having a lot of trouble with that specific aspect of things myself. Those who get it get it.

With that said, let's get into my full review of KFP4! I've been waiting for nearly 2 years to write this and I'm so excited to share every single thought.

I'm going to follow the format of my first discussion post and curate a bulleted list of my thoughts, followed by an analysis of each of these points. Keep in mind that everything I say is IMO and this is more of a rant post than anything else.

Here are my main points:

The Furious Five's role is comically minuscule in the context of the film. Their actions are inconsequential and add nothing to the plot (a confirmed last-minute add), and they have 30~ seconds of screen time. Shifu is also largely irrelevant.

Mr. Ping and Li's presence has little to no effect on the movie (though I won't complain too much because they were pretty fun to watch and this movie has bigger problems). In almost any scenario, I am adamantly against having characters present that don't add anything to the narrative; however, Mr. Ping is an exception. I love Mr. Ping. James Hong is a gem.

Zhen's screen time is not utilized well and her character is underdeveloped. She definitely wasn't annoying, but I didn't find her either compelling or funny enough to warrant the screen time she was given, especially considering it wasn't used to establish a backstory/strong motives. This makes me feel bad for the character because the movie kind of screwed her out of any substantial development.

The Chameleon, while complimented greatly by Viola Davis, is an underwhelming villain. Viola Davis is amazing in this film and I would suggest watching it for her performance if for nothing else, but the Chameleon is underwhelming considering the super cool concept behind the character.

The film feels very rushed. Apologies to those who disagree, but I think the pacing is atrocious and the final fight is anticlimactic. The movie felt like a word-vomit with no discernible intermissions that stops abruptly when the film ends.

I felt as though Po didn't change/grow as a person and the audience never had a chance to either bond with or relate to his character. His internal struggle is kept to a minimum and we don't spend a moment alone with him as an audience, which is disorienting and distracting. Watching the film felt like running into an old friend at the store who's too in a rush to have a real conversation.

The action scenes were strong with few exceptions. Creative art direction was utilized and I thought the martial arts choreography was entertaining and dynamic. I love the color palette of the film and many scenes were very impressive visually.

With my main points established, I do believe it's ranting time. Strap in, folks.

Let's start strong with the Furious Five: I'm gutted. Chagrined, despondent, crestfallen, etc.

The lack of the Furious Five negatively affects KFP4 so much, because not only does their absence hurt the atmospheric integrity of KFP as a franchise, it also forces KFP4 to bring in a slew of different characters—all while still noncommittally including the FF at the very end because I believe the marketing team required it—that clog up the cast a bit. It all goes to show how important strong, established side characters are.

The Furious Five are side characters, but the role of "side character" does not equate to being irrelevant, expendable, or exchangeable. I recognize that the Furious Five aren't super developed as characters beyond a handful of lines that allude to traits sprinkled sparingly among the members; however, I believe that the tiny bits of development we have been given have proved impactful in the past. Tigress's development in KFP2 is a prime example of how much narratively conscious changes (however small they may be) can positively affect these movies.

Because of limited runtimes, the Furious Five often operate as more of a singular unit than five individuals. Even so, I don't think discarding them is valid. They're so important to the KFP universe (to Po's universe!) and not having them with him feels so wrong. The Furious Five are fully integral to the heart of Kung Fu Panda, which is why I believe a lot of those who have seen the new movie have expressed something feeling "off" or something being missing.

I agree with this sentiment. To me, KFP4 didn't feel like a KFP movie. I don't need a Furious Five spin-off movie and I can be fully content with a KFP5 centered around Po's journey as an individual as was intended from the beginning, but he can't carry an entire movie on his back. As strong as he is in every sense of the word, he is only one character. He's the centerpiece of the franchise, but a centerpiece can only go so far without the rest of the design, so to speak.

For me, the Furious Five's absence is one of this film's biggest faults. It's huge and glaring. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, either, because the friends with whom I saw the film refused to talk about any other aspect of the movie after seeing it. Seeing them at the end was better than nothing, of course, but it was a disappointing culmination after eight years of waiting.

That all is to say I feel robbed. Despite all of this, though, I understand that there were reasons why the Furious Five weren't included in the movie. I don't believe the production team would exclude the Furious Five unless they weren't given a choice.

Shifu and Po's dynamic continues to be thoroughly delightful but their interactions are short and simplified. I would have loved to see more of them in this film, especially considering the extreme relevance of teacher-student relationships in KFP4. I (somewhat) digress, though, because the idea of Shifu having to live at the Jade Palace with only Po for an extended period of time is hilarious enough on its own. Maybe that's what the short film is about!

The comedy is odd but has some jokes that stand out. Po maintains a healthy relationship with his inner sass, which I think makes him more fun to watch and kind of eradicates the man-child verdict. Some jokes don't land, of course, but I genuinely thought KFP4 had some funny moments. Mr. Ping was consistently awesome and Po had some good lines sprinkled throughout the film.

As for Mr. Ping, he and Li Shan are the subjects of the film's B-plot as they follow Po to Juniper City out of shared concern for their son's safety. In my mind, they don't add anything to the story that couldn't have been brought about by other characters, but they had their moments of being entertaining. I enjoyed their silliness and thought they had a cute dynamic if nothing else.

Speaking of other characters, I want to discuss KFP4's deuteragonist and why I genuinely feel bad about the way her character was treated.

I want to let it be known that I'm still not on board with Po passing the Dragon Warrior torch to another character. While I agree that his arc is now calling for him to have a student, I disagree with the notion of him retiring from his DW role.

As I stated in my first discussion post:

Didn’t the initial significance and nuance of the title come from the fact that there is only one person who can be the Dragon Warrior, because the concept of the “Dragon Warrior” isn’t so much a title as it is Po himself? The universe (Oogway) must choose the Dragon Warrior because they are a singular being of legend. It is one person, and that person is Po. Wasn’t the point of the first film that the title ultimately doesn’t really matter because there is no “secret ingredient,” so to speak? The title doesn’t actually give Po anything. “It’s just you,” Po says, and that was the resolution.

When it comes to Zhen as a character, contrary to what I predicted I would think of her, I thought she was okay. While I was still a bit distracted by how out-of-place her design looks, I wasn't truly annoyed by her at any point and she and Po had some cute moments. Even so, I think their relationship could have been a bit more refined and developed.

While it's evident that Po and Zhen are meant to have a teacher-student/mentor-apprentice dynamic, I think their relationship feels half-baked. There were parallels that contradicted one another and ended up being confusing come the film's conclusion, and the nature of their relationship seems to vacillate depending on the scene. Additionally, the strength of their bond goes from zero to one hundred within thirty-ish minutes and left me with a bit of whiplash.

We're shown that Po and Zhen care about one another, but we're never shown why. They have a brief conversation during which they bond over being orphans, and Zhen says at one point, "You're actually a good guy," but that's it. This obvious lack of development is a bit disorienting because we're later led to believe that Zhen and Po care very deeply for one another when there's almost nothing to back it up.

A scene that sticks out to me when discussing this is when Zhen attack-hugs Po in a way that explicitly mirrors Tigress's hug from KFP2. This happens around the beginning of the third act, and while it had the potential to be an endearing moment, I think it fell flat.

The impact of Tigress's hug was brought on by her character's hardcore nature and reputation of being heartless, further strengthened with the knowledge that she was hugging Po (which was obviously way outside her comfort zone) as a show of companionship and fundamental understanding. Tigress hugged Po because he needed someone to recognize his strive for closure.

Zhen's hug had little to no impact because she had no reason to do it and it didn't indicate growth. She hugs Po because she's sorry for betraying him and doesn't want him to be killed by the Chameleon, but neither of these things are newly-established via this hug; we have already gathered by now that Zhen regrets betraying Po and doesn't want him to get hurt.

The hug is far from the movie's weakest point, but I think it's unnecessary given the context. I'm big on hugs in movies (an underutilized form of platonic affection, in my opinion), but it didn't fit here. I don't hate it, and I see it as an honest effort to bring emotionality to Po and Zhen's relationship, but it seems arbitrary.

Zhen and Po's relationship has a lot of potential and I'd be open to seeing more of them in the future, but I think some more thoughtful development needs to occur before I can humor it further. Even so, I can see myself featuring Zhen in some future post-KFP4 one-shots—sparingly, of course, because we have a lot of Furious Five content to compensate for.

Overall, they had a cute dynamic and some sweet moments but I'm not attached. I'm on board with Po having a student but I think their relationship needs a lot more development, something that this film unfortunately didn't give them time to either accomplish or earn.

Now, onto the Chameleon!

The concept of the Chameleon's character is admittedly super interesting. She's the deuteragonist's fastidious mother figure who feels that Zhen owes her a debt and as a result holds her to an impossible standard. That dynamic had the potential to be so interesting but I didn't think it was explored at all. There is no indication of Zhen having any internal conflict about fighting the Chameleon, no emotional complexity between them at all; it's disappointing because I think it would've added a bit of earnestness to the film.

Additionally, the idea of a shape-shifting villain is versatile. A shape-shifting villain gives those telling the story a lot of room to experiment with the protagonist and different ways in which the main character can be challenged and tested. It's yet another good idea utilized poorly. Just one idea: the Chameleon could have disguised herself as one (or several) of Po's family, friends, etc. and brought to fruition a new arc with his character (seeing as he arguably doesn't have one in this film), but she only disguises herself as Zhen very briefly in the movie.

Furthermore, the Chameleon completely relies on the powers of previous villains to pose any sort of threat to the main characters. She summons Po's former nemeses from the Spirit Realm (despite there being little logic in doing so considering Kai's literal evisceration) and takes their kung fu abilities for herself.

An excerpt from my first KFP4 discussion post that I think is relevant to the point I'm trying to make:

I don’t think it would be in the best interest of anyone if the past villains were to come back in any way that’s not a flashback (even then, I’m not sure I’d see the point). In all honesty, I thought that the whole point of the villains was that they died and stayed dead. They were defeated by Po once and for all as a testament to the idea of establishing Po's character growth and journey as a person through the bad things he’s able to overcome. It’d be highly contradictory to the messages of the other films if these villains were to suddenly come back.

While there was an honest effort made to portray the Chameleon as intimidating, I never felt as though any of the characters were endangered by either her or her army of lizard henchman. She's a visually appealing character (aside from her eyes, which I thought more resembled those of a gecko than a chameleon) and I greatly enjoyed Davis's performance, but overall I don't see the Chameleon as a notable villain.

The return of Tai Lung (had he been on his own) had the makings to be an excellent story, especially considering the importance of teacher-student dynamics in KFP4. To see him interacting with Shifu would have been incredible and could have led to further closure on Tai Lung's end (because I think that's kind of what the team was going for anyway), but it didn't happen.

It was nice to see Ian McShane reprise his role, but I wish Tai Lung's characterization had been more reminiscent of the way he was in the first film and more complimentary of his overall character arc. Tai Lung isn't a one-dimensional villain with a singular goal and motivation, and I couldn't help but feel as though the complexity of his character was simplified for the sake of KFP4's narrative.

Tai Lung's presence in KFP4 may be odd, but Shen and Kai's appearances are even more so. Kai, if I remember correctly, was fully obliterated by Po, reduced to literal particles on screen (which is kind of wild now that I think about it). Shen being in the Spirit Realm makes sense all things considered; however, Po and Li had no visible reaction to his presence, which seemed a bit unlikely considering Shen's deeds. This plot hole can likely be attributed to the fact that Shen and Kai's cameos (to my knowledge) were last-minute additions to the movie.

I have to talk about the pacing. I have to. I'm sorry, bear with me.

To me, the film's pacing is erratic and disconcerting. While I can appreciate a quick-moving narrative that doesn't dawdle on storylines that aren't interesting/important, KFP4 kind of flings itself too far in the opposite direction and ends up being frighteningly fast-paced. Once the credits began, I felt like I had been holding my breath for the entire movie.

KFP4 is confusing because while the runtime is standard for a KFP movie, it feels incredibly short. At the same time, the film's story moves at a breakneck speed and leaves little time for heart and development. These things culminate into a barreling boulder of a movie that simply doesn't have time to let its characters, story, or audience take a breath.

A fast pace is not inherently negative, but I don't think it worked in the favor of KFP4. The KFP franchise has always been very emotionally grounded (and just very grounded in general), so to see a film in which emotion/heart takes an aggressive backseat in comparison to action and comedy is jarring. While I think it's unreasonable for fans to expect the same emotional integrity as the original films to be present in the current and upcoming ones, I still think there's room for Po to grow and I felt as though the notion of him developing further was brushed aside in this film.

As for Po's growth, I felt it was nearly nonexistent. The previous trilogy wrapped up his character's journey beautifully and I know that KFP4 was bound to struggle with this particular aspect of making another KFP film; however, just because the strongest pillars of Po's character are established doesn't serve as a valid excuse to reverse his development and repeat what he learned in KFP3.

In KFP3, Po learned firsthand that he is capable of spreading wisdom and teaching kung fu. He also learns that he is constantly growing and that change is inevitable; there is always something more to learn.

"If you only do what you can do, you will never be more than you are now."

"I don't want to be anything more, I like who I am!"

In KFP4, Po pushes against this narrative despite fully accepting it in KFP3, actively reversing crucial parts of his character development achieved in the latter. KFP3 was non-ambiguously about learning to cope with change and responsibility, and I can't help but feel like KFP4 is simply copying this message while not adding anything to it.

Additionally, I felt that KFP4's Po generally felt less personal than he has in the past. In every KFP movie up to the franchise's most recent addition, I felt very connected to Po as an audience member. I felt like I was truly seeing the world of KFP through his eyes. I consider this to be one of the franchise's most impressive feats; it's incredibly difficult to build a universe around a character without making the audience feel limited to one perspective and one part of the world.

With KFP4, I felt both limited and disconnected. The world didn't feel as vast and all-encompassing as it has in the past and Po didn't seem fully like himself. This could be me nitpicking (as I'm prone to do), but I can't recall a single moment in the movie in which Po was alone on screen. Scenes like these are crucial for me because I see them as a meet-cute between the character and the audience, a moment for us to cross the bridge into their world in a way that's silent and intuitive. These little bonding moments are absolutely integral to feeling connected to a character.

Po's dream sequence in the first KFP movie is one of the best examples of this. It presents his aspirations, alludes to his way of life up to the point of the movie, and showcases his personality. During Po's dream sequence, the audience is quite literally inside Po's mind; we're there with him, seeing what he sees, subsequently feeling what he feels. Po is a dreamer at heart and makes the audience feel like dreamers, too.

In KFP4, I felt like I little to no point of reference when it comes to how Po was feeling. I didn't feel immersed in him and his world.

I know I've been very "doom and gloom" throughout this post, which is an exhausting mindset for everyone involved. I want to end my critique with something positive because I think some praise is deserved. Let's just say the movie could have been a lot worse, the details of which I'm sure you're all well aware.

The color palette of the movie is beautiful and somewhat reminiscent of the first film. While the animation style of KFP4 is far more simplistic than its predecessors, I was very impressed with its use of shadow and light. Po's many faces were also hysterical, props to those who helped make him as expressive as he is.

Additionally, the movie's action sequences were clearly thought out and discussed in great detail. The experimentation with camera angles was really fun to watch and I enjoyed the majority of the film's fight scenes. They were fun, bouncy, and entertaining, and quite likely reinstated audiences's love of watching a cuddly panda kick butt.

Congratulations, you've reached the end! Thank you so much to all of you who took the time to read this unnecessarily long and detailed review. As long as I help someone translate their conflicted feelings into coherent thoughts, I'll call it a win.

I want to reiterate that I don't hate Kung Fu Panda 4 and I had fun while watching the film. It has its flaws and there are a lot of aspects that I dislike, but the effort of the crew is obvious and I greatly admire and respect the hard work put into the film by those who worked on it. This does not at all excuse my issues with the movie, but it's worth saying.

As for the future of the series, I only hope that the next installment is more considerate of the franchise's origins and why Po's story is being told in the first place. I fully believe that another sequel could be good given a strong, passionate crew with a great understanding of the characters and world (and I wouldn't be averse to some previous directors returning, just to put it out there).

Thanks again to those who took the time to read this crazy excuse for a movie review. Feel free to either disagree with me or add things in the replies/reblogs, I'm always looking for more thoughts to think.

Until next time!

#kung fu panda 4 #kung fu panda #dreamworks animation #kfp #kfp 4 #movie review #i'll add the actual picture of the furious five's cameo when i can get ahold of one of decent quality #my time has come #it wasn't THAT bad #i didn't love it #but it is what it is #it's a tentative 6/10 all things considered #free the five #perhaps i treated kfp3 too harshly #don't get me wrong the movie had good qualities and i can tell a lot of work went into it #a lot of missed potential imo #a lot of characters done dirty #i didn't even mention the score but i thought it was just okay #i wasn't wowed #i know close to nothing about composing though so i should probably just not even go there #credits were the best part both cinematically and musically #i feel mean but i'm not going to be dishonest #bc obviously you all simply must know how i feel about the silly panda movie #a more detailed version of the grievances i have w the dragon warrior plot can be found in my og discussion post if anyone's interested #as well as my thoughts on bringing back old villains #might make some edits to this in the future but this is all i have to say for now

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matoitech · 9 months

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a lot of furry novels would b better if they had editors… i don’t say this rudely it’s just a legitimately good thing to have w writing, this manuscript could’ve been elevated sooo much with editing

#a lot of them even one’s going thru furry publishers i don’t think have editors #it’s more of a self publishing with a publisher attached kind of thing #reading a book rn that’s good but could’ve been tighter and the like missed potential is making me crazy #OFC ITS STILL GOOD BUT IMO THE MULTIPLE PPL WORKING ON A SCRIPT R RLY HELPFUL FOR POLISH. I SAY THIS AS A WRITER

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adr1025 · 1 year

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I get what you mean about it being a bit of a rush but at what stage would you have ended 6.0 because tbh I don't really see a precise point where 6.0 could have ended prematurely. Both 79 and 73 trials are big moments but neither felt like a point where you could call it a day before the next patch because they were very much part of a journey. Whereas Ultima, the reclamation of Ala Mhigo, defeat of Emet-Selch, and Heavens Ward felt like the suitable big endings for the main expacs but without having the Final Days resolved by the end 9f 6.0 I'm not sure what resolution it would have gone for. What would you have picked?

ough this is a tough question. truth is that I agree with you, the way endwalker's narrative is written, none of those trials would have been a good point to end 6.0... any changes that were made would affect the timeline, and when there is a sense of urgency and such high stakes you can't wait months after 6.0 to finally beat meteion, it wouldn't work… i really think they did the best they could with the resources and time they had, it's a good story, they just threw in too many themes and didn't develop them very well.

honestly the only solution I can think of would have been to make the two expansions as they planned before (there is a famitsu interview where this appears if I'm not mistaken) where one ends with anima, and the other with hydaelyn and then zodiark… that way they could have developed elpis AND garlemald well, because come on, we've been fighting garlemald for years, they're a constant threat, and when we visited them the first impression that the civilians left us was that they called us savages that we were going to "contaminate their purity" and then they got themselves killed? and immediately after they want us to consider garleans as people, with hopes and feelings etc etc etc.... and if I talked about elpis, this answer would be much much longer so

#think i went on a tangent oh no #and i did like endwalker btw #there's just something missing imo #and a lot of wasted potential #ffxiv its a mmo it has time on its side #imagine spending months not knowing what's going to happen while everything is exploding around you #it would have been great!!!

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fruitcakeddog · 1 year

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If CEC really is opening more phase 3 restaurants I hope this garners enough positive attention for them to reconsider their more modern design. And perhaps encourage them to look deeper into what aspects worked in order to improve the current phase or to guarantee a greater one

#cec #imo the more modern design of 2.0 lacks the most in personality. a lot of the colors are clean and appealing but there's no character #I want cute art of the characters hanging out or just being silly. it would really liven up 2.0. right now it feels like an empty shell #there's so much missing. so much lost. it's sad #2.0 has great potential but with the way it's going I don't think the future is very bright for the franchise #I think the reason I care so much about this is because my childhood store got a 2.0 remodel. and I loved the design of it before that #I wish the remodel wouldn't go to waste. it was probably very costly.

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grandmofftarkinsuggestions · 2 years

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interesting takes relevant to last night’s discussion. i was so prepared for this to be super defensive of him but it actually more so just breaks down why he was Like That.

#kinda made me push up my glasses when they didn't mention that wilhuff's been doing/forced into the whole carrion plateau thing from #a much younger age.... idk if it was just a simple mistake or they just glossed over it for some reason bc him being 11 years old the first #time is kinda. it'd add more to a lot of the points imo to add more emphasis to that. maybe that's just me tho.#bc he Sure Was super young when he was forced into all those terrifying situations for the first time!!!#wilhuff tarkin #sw #love the thesis here about fear being a bad motivator that you shouldn't base your whole life and opinions and actions and etc etc etc on <3 #i have an anxiety disorder..... he's just such a meow meow to me. To Me.#like the rights of passage shit when he was 16 ish was definitely a formative moment but it'd build more on the initial comparison to how #jedis take on younglings at such a young age to better mold their world views to mention just how young tarkin was when he was sent off #to the carrion. once again i am the most nerdiest bitch in the world about him but i think there was some missed potential there.#and also it's something i care about and see myself a lot in.... i personally would've done it but i get it. i get it.#really nice short essay!!! liked the presentation and use of quotes in it. especially my favorite one ('never try to live decently boy') !!!#i also like how this video is sympathetic and passionate without being apologetic.... we heart problematic faves <333

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neo--queen--serenity · 1 year

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I know we all have our own opinions on P.A. Works throwing this line into the ending of the final episode:

BUT!! The English dub is now out.

In the English dub, Miri says this phrase a little differently. She says that Kazuki “went out drinking with the ladies.”

This sounds a lot less like a pathetically belated attempt at no homo and a lot more like saying the ladies are his friend group, which would make sense, seeing how Kazuki immediately made friends with the daycare moms back when Miri was little.

It’s a small change, and honestly could just have been a logistical (mouth flap) choice, but it blends in with their prologue far better than the original phrase in Japanese had done. It’s even more open-ended to the nature of his and Rei’s relationship than the original, which I think is a smart choice, given how many potentially queer categories they can fall under when no label is given.

The English dub for this show has been a delight from start to finish, really, so this was the perfect way to end the series, imo. I’m gonna miss them. 🥲

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maxwellatoms · 4 months

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What kind of video games do you like to play Mr. Atoms?

So many! Assuming there's time. These days there's generally not, so I've been bingeing Vampire Survivors in half-hour doses.

Above is a gif from Noita, my top game of the pandemic. It's an old-school "Metroidvania", but every pixel is simulated and you're a witch who can manipulate her spells (and thereby the world) in a seemingly infinite number of ways. Here, I've built magical "buzzsaws" around myself, which blinded me to the shadow amoeba. In Noita, almost every death is due to hubris, and I think I love that pendulum swing. If you're lucky and skilled, you can become a walking whirlwind of destruction, but you're always your own worst enemy. Bonus: You can turn your vomit into rats.

I'm currently on a break in the midst of my Baldur's Gate 3 run, with a party consisting of my BG2 character's daughter, Karlatch, Lazelle, and Shadowheart. Ladies' Night!

I'm also playing a bit of Shadows of Doubt. I'm not sure it'll hold up long-term, but it's got a lot of potential.

I don't really limit myself by genre or platform, but I'd say that I primarily play indie PC games. The games in my Steam library that I keep going back to again and again?

Cities: Skylines: A chill City Building Simulator. Lots of fun mods.

Darkest Dungeon: This thing is a classic strategy game IMO.

Death Road to Canada: A light, fast Project Zomboid. Dogs with guns!

Dwarf Fortress: For me, it's the ultimate fantasy sim. I love it so much. Looking forward to Adventure Mode finally appearing on Steam.

Project Zomboid: The ultimate lonely 2D zombie apocalypse survival game. Or non-survival game, I suppose.

Total War: Warhammer: For when I'm in a strategy-y mood. Like a lot of people, I'm a bit soured on the modern DLC scene, so I'm still waiting on #3 even though I'm a Chaos stan.

Not on Steam? I do play some Star Citizen from time to time. I backed it a decade ago. I used to joke that it was the game I was going to retire into, but more and more that's looking less and less like a joke. Still, it's made some good progress in the last couple of years and I'm hopeful that repair and engineering turn out to be fun.

The game I'm looking forward to most would be the next Elder Scrolls. I know it's still a ways off. Ever since my Nereverine landed in Morrowind with the intention of becoming a just and righteous cleric and instead found herself an unwitting villain and colonizer, I fell in love with the Elder Scrolls and it's deep, gray lore. It is (for me) a great way to really get into a character's head. Roleplaying... go figure.

Since Morrowind (and a backtrack into Daggerfall), I only allow myself one canon playthrough. My rule is to "let it ride", so that aside from death, if I screw up or if something unexpected happens I don't save-scum. All of my characters are related, either by quest or bloodline. I already know that my next character will be Aventus Aretino (the kid you catch summoning the Dark Brotherhood). My Skyrim character (above) had adopted him and then left him in the hands of a vampire, so I should be covered even if there's a big time jump. Now I just have to wait six more years for the game. And then maybe two for mods. God I'm so old.

I need to spend more time with Dave the Diver.

Anything current I'm missing out on?

#maxwell atoms #video games #all over the map

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actually-the-antichrist · 2 years

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The thing most commentators miss about the "Greek Myths aren't literal" line of argument, is that there's much more behind why modern western society (America in particular) loves to take greek myths (specifically involving messy sexual relationships) literally. America really loves a scandal doesn't it, and America really loves a celebrity scandal. When it's an act of sexual misconduct that is blown up, people like to think it's for justice, and sure, that is a legitimate part of why people focus on these things, but that's not the reason it blows up. The reason is that America loves a good juicy scandal. Ultimately, what the pop culture version of greek mythos and the greek gods tell an observer says much more about modern American culture than it does the ancients, and what I mean when I say "the myths weren't taken literally" is simply that one can know more about what the myths may tell us about the ancient civilizations, if one were willing to not ignore their cultural political and esp environmental contexts.

Myths weren't "just stories" (they are to us which, again, says infinitely more about us). They were stories inspired by an experience with some natural phenomenon near to where the myth telling culture dwelled. Just to give one example, the myths of Dionysus gifting wine to people often ended with accounts of madness and dismemberment. This likely corresponds to how shocking the effects were when the ancient societies first discovered wine. Similarly, the myths of gods sexing women and impregnating them likely referred to the idea of a communion with the divine that is so potent it can produce a physical product, and analyzing the role women play as the unique conduits of that in the ancient mythos is a far more feminist and productive way IMO to engage than just to dismiss these myths bcs rape. By this interpretation, a modern day retelling actually true to the spirit would not only contain a consensual relationship, but also explore our modern day notions of the divine, sex, sexually, and the idea of offspring (expanding it from children to, say, works of art or ideas for instance)

In conclusion, myths tell us more about the current culture perpetuating them, myths were stories within a specific context, and we would be throwing away a lot of potential for meaning making if we cannot acknowledge these facts. If there's one thing Lore Olympus got right in it's retelling, is that by setting things up 50 Shades of Gray styled, it tapped into the consumer psyche plain and simple: that's what the modern western audience want in a retelling- a scandal dressed in greek mythos. That's what we think these myths are.

#thats it thats my essay #Hellenic polytheism #polytheism #mythic literalism #helpol #tagging the try guys just bcs thats also what prompted this reflection #the try guys #lore olympus #tagamemnon #also id appreciate it if ppl who agree rbed since i think theres some interesting ideas in here and i want it to get around to ppl

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centaurianthropology · 1 year

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Why C3E51 worked so well (a DM’s perspective)

I have seen a lot of absolutely bananas critiques of C3E51 (thankfully not nearly as many around here, far more on Reddit, which I should not have visited). And the ongoing theme of those critiques is that Matt should not have imperiled former PCs, and if he brought them in should have either done lengthy side-bars with those characters or let them win the fight against Ludinis and have a chance to take him out themselves, since they’re ‘god tier’ or ‘high level’ and that makes ‘logical sense’. What these critiques really boil down to, IMO, are people who were really invested in the former campaigns upset that their faves didn’t get to do cool things, treating it more like a TV show than a game. But even as a TV show, that would have been disappointing from a narrative perspective. Because even in a TV show, this is a sequel spin-off show, starring new characters. The story is about THEM. And more importantly, the game is about the players and about telling their story.

So let’s break this down from a DM perspective. How do you build a Kobiashi Maru situation for your characters? For those of you who aren’t familiar, the Kobiashi Maru is a Star Trek term for a scenario designed from the jump to be unwinnable (Kirk beat it by creativity, but later admitted that he missed the point of it). In Star Trek this was done to test what a future officer would do if faced with certain failure. In a D&D game it’s a little more complicated. Part of it is to set up the BBEG, put their plan in motion, and set the stage for the next leg of the game. But it’s also to give your players, who are clearly into it, a darkest-hour scenario. Not every player group is going to be into facing down the Kobiashi Maru, and it’s clear from the aforementioned critiques that a lot of them are on Reddit. Power-gamers who always want to win are not going to enjoy this sort of storytelling, but players who are really into RP and working through difficult times and failures will eat this stuff up. And this is absolutely the sort of table playing on Critical Role. There is a level of trust there that can only be built after years of working together, and this was finally the moment when Matt could pay off years of planning and campaign-spanning set-up.

Matt carefully plotted the structure of this episode out to give maximum agency and impact to a party of dramatically under-leveled characters. And they knew going in they were under-leveled. This wasn’t a surprise, but a potential suicide run by people who knew they weren’t the heroes they needed to be, but were the only heroes in the right place at the right time to try anything. So they came up with as good a plan as they could, and executed it fairly well, all things considered.

They knew they couldn’t take on Ludinus directly (and this was a great way to demonstrate exactly how much he had planned and how long, to bring in elements from C2, hints we’ve had for years about Ludinis, only to reveal it went deeper than any of the characters could have imagined), so Matt gave them some winnable objectives. This is a great way to keep the characters invested in an unwinnable scenario: the ultimate outcome may be beyond the characters, barring some insane genius or incredible rolls, but they can still help. They can do something that will have a tangible impact on events and hinder the baddies enough to give them another chance at a rematch and a way to stop the apocalypse when they’re higher level. So Matt gave them the batteries: take out as many as you can. While this would not stop the ritual, I suspect that the more they took out the more Ludinis would have to drain his own power to make the key work, and the longer the process would take. Knocking out the feywild key, as well as multiple power sources turned what would have been an instantaneous event if they had done nothing into a more drawn-out affair which, I suspect, could be stopped or even reversed. It gave them a window to come back and demand a rematch.

Then we have the high-level PC allies, and how to play with those sorts of characters without pulling focus from the PCs. Matt handled this very well, by having the players roll for their former PCs, taking the specifics of their actions out of his hands and letting the dice of the former players decide. He also revealed that Keyleth’s involvement, and baiting Vax with Otohan’s permadeath poison, was key to Ludinis’ ritual, which was why she couldn’t just dive in and clean everything up. But again, because of this story, it ties less back to Keyleth and more back to Orym. That was the point of the attack on Zephrah, to get her attention by getting her to look into who did it and then coming to get some payback, but the little guy on the ground has always been caught in the middle. Orym has been Ludinis’ unwitting pawn from the off, his family’s deaths merely a means to an end, and that is vicious and amazing set-up for character growth for him.

Beau and Caleb had to be there by the logic of the story. It didn’t make sense that Caleb would sit out a world-ending event orchestrated by a Cerberus Assembly member after spending years trying to take them down. Beau would obviously go with him. It also made sense that they would be the only two there, because they were scouting when Ryn got taken down, and after that were trying to keep a low profile. Shit accelerated too fast for them to call in reinforcements.

Which is the in-story reason for them to be there, but isolated and vulnerable, making them useful allies and wildcards (who likely could have been more useful if ultimately failing as well, but failed early thanks to Liam and Marisha’s rolls). But they were still outmatched. I have no idea what the challenge rating of Otohan, Leliana, and Ludinis are, but we know Otohan was considered ‘beatable’ back in Bassuras. That indicates she’s the lowest CR, particularly with the glowing weak-spot on her back. But she can still wreck a level-20 PC if she gets the jump on her, which she did. And that meant that she remained a massive threat. Caleb and Beau were playing it smart, keeping to the shadows, but still got caught by Leliana. Between dice rolls, careful planning, and some great enemy design, Matt really set up a team that could take on high-level players and win. And he made it clear that Ludinis did not leave this to chance. He has the best people he could muster after 1000 years of planning. Nothing short of a miracle could have truly stopped them.

Which is why we cut back to Bells Hells. Because ultimately this particular story isn’t about Keyleth or Vax or Caleb or Beau or any other former PCs. This is about the current party being caught up in events much larger than them and having to rise to the occasion. This is the story of the schmucks sent in to take out the batteries, but who have personal beef with the big bads. Ludinis orchestrated the plan to attack Zephrah to bait Keyleth and draw out Vax, and Otohan carried it out. And he used Orym as a pawn throughout all of it. This makes taking them down, but especially taking Otohan down, the cornerstone of Orym’s personal quest. Letting an NPC take her down would be taking away a critical part of his motivation and goals, which is an absolute no-no for a DM. NEVER bring in a god-tier NPC and take away player agency or story beats. Especially never have them resolve important player goals and backstory events! Every NPC, even the powerful ones, are there to support the story the players are telling. So of course Keyleth wasn’t going to take out Otohan. Of course she wasn’t going to stop the ritual. Beau and Caleb might have been able to do something more if Liam and Marisha hadn’t rolled so badly for them, but ultimately, they had to get caught or fail in another way.

For the sake of gameplay, Bell’s Hells had to be the only functional team. They had to be the ants that were beneath Ludinis’ notice long enough to really accomplish something. And as much as it feels like they failed, they had minor victories: Laudna and Ashton took out more batteries, making Ludinis drain his own power to kick off the apocalypse. They only failed to take out Otohan’s backpack by 2 HP, which showed them that she was an achievable goal in the future. If they had rolled a little better, they probably could have taken her out entirely, which would have felt like a big accomplishment for them. Imogen made her mother pause in her assault before doubling down. This leaves open very interesting future beats for their interactions. Can she ultimately redeem her mother or would she have to take her out? Every step that Matt set up in this episode, from the reveals about Ludinis’ plans and Orym’s past, to Imogen’s interactions with her mother, to Chetney and likely Ashton finding themselves staring down their own backstories after the party split, was focused on this party, on getting them ready to step out of low-level play and advance.

And that’s the point of E51. It’s not a climax of the story, but the ultimate set-up. It’s putting all the pieces onto the board in a way that all the characters can now recognize. Yes, unless the players came up with something genius, the apocalypse was going to kick off, but their actions slowed everything down to a place where it could be combatted. Yes, the god-tier former PCs were always going to get neutered, because this is Bells Hells’ story, and you cannot have NPCs fix PC problems. They might have been able to do a little more before this happened, but the dice rolled.

And it’s honestly good for the PCs how things turned out. They have a clear objective, but are split up. This gives them great incentive to level up, explore character backstory, deal with their personal shit, get stronger, and then come back to kick the asses of all three of these villains (or possibly redeem one, we’ll see). Their powerful allies are now temporarily side-lined. Keyleth is badly hurt and will need time to recover. Caleb is collared and will need time to get that removed. Beau is likely up and moving now, but will need to safeguard Caleb for a while.

The Bells Hells are on their own. The Darkest Hour has come, and it’s time for them to rise up and go from nobodies to heroes. This is their true call to adventure. And as a DM, it was so cool seeing how Matt set up all the pieces over the campaign, only to pay them out in such a satisfying and motivating way in this episode.

#Critical Role #Critical Role spoilers #I really liked this episode #both as storytelling #and in terms of structure #this is how you do long-term setup #and payoff for a villain #he had planned for everything #but this annoying party of gnats muching up his works #and the gnats are going to be what takes him down #that is such a good way to let a low-level party get set up to take on a high-level villain!!#anyway #this is to combat some of the negativity I've seen toward this episode

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wannabegwenstacy · 1 year

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Eden's Favorite Scoups Tumblr Fics

updated: 5/2/2023

A/N: check out the full svt fic recs masterlist for some of the other members. warning i'm a baby carat so its not super full yet and i currently have only some members posts created currently. will be updating with more fic recs periodically. :)

A/N: Also, I don't have a lot of fics linked yet. :( Will continue reading and updating periodically.

⇣Below cut⇣

Terrifyingly Innocent by @twogyuu

Pairing: Seungcheol x fem!reader

Genre: Fluff, angst, fake dating, slowburn, older brother’s best friend!Seungcheol, badboy!Seungcheol, innocent!reader, older brother!Jihoon, non-idol!au, university!au, low-key Crazy Rich Asians!au (Seungcheol is RICH - implied chaebol lifestyle, Jihoon and reader's family aren't chaebols and are commoners but well-off)

Warnings: PG-13, specific warnings will be listed per chapter.

Summary: Fearful of losing her, yet unwilling to leave; this agreement between Seungcheol and his best friend’s little sister was meant to be casual and temporary, yet he finds himself growing more attached to her day by day.

push it down (sooner or later it all comes out) by @dontflailmenow

Pairing: Seungcheol x fem!reader

word count: 50,301

genre: smut (18+), enemies to lovers, camboy au, angst (with a happy ending)

Warnings: adult language, excessive use of petnames, copious amounts of banter, e2l antagonism/shenanigans, camboy!cheol, strength kink, size kink, blink and you miss it sir kink, reader likes being a brat and cheol is into it, brief discussion about/hints of potential sexual power dynamics (but they're pretty tame imo), two instances of ass-swatting, mutually consensual possessiveness, semi-public touching, explicit sexual content: masturbation (m. and f.), manual stimulation (m. and f. receive), oral sex (m. and f. receive), protected and unprotected sex + creampie.

Summary: thirsting over your ex’s best friend in general is a bad idea. given that you and seungcheol have never gotten along, it’s even worse. when you accidentally stumble across his stream, though, and he finds out? all bets are off.

baguette by @bwinnies

Pairing: choi seungcheol x reader

Wordcount: 1.2k

Warnings: FLUFF , some cursing , food is mentioned (they’re in a grocery store) , seungcheol may make u kinda weak ngl

FINE DINING 101: STEP ONE (s.c) by @ncteez

Pairing: seungcheol x afab reader

Wordcount: 3.6k

Warnings: pussy eating (he gets in there), masturbation in the form of humping the mattress and then into his hand, finger fucking, there isn’t any penetration or anything but like– maybe in a part two they can actually do more??? idk it depends on if y’all want a part two.

Summary: Is it weird that no man has ever given you some good head and your best friend is a bit annoyed by that? Probably not. Is it weird that he offers to eat you out after a particularly bad date? Oh yeah, for sure. You’re still gonna let him though.

or the one where seungcheol proves to you just how good he is at giving head.

Remind Me by @milfgyuu

Pairing: Choi Seungcheol x Fem!Reader

Wordcount: 2.7k

Genre: fluff, humor

Warnings: mc gets drunk, cheol sleeps in underwear only (u can fight me on this), like one (1) unintentional innuendo.

Summary: You’ve had a little too much to drink at your sister’s wedding and can’t understand how or why Choi Seungcheol of all people is assigned to babysit you.

ice cold, cabin fever by @smileysuh

Pairing: Seungcheol & Mingyu x afab!Reader

Rating: 18+ explicit

Wordcount: 25.9k

AU's: e2l, s2l, step brothers Jihan, non idol, ski resort, roomies, etc...

Warnings: threesome, daddy issues, mean/tsundere cheol, wet dreams, spanking, marking, dirty talk, choking, unprotected sex, pain kink, dacryphilia, breast play, praise, degradation, fingering, oral, hand job, blow job, multiple orgasms, overstim, edging, orgasm denial, manhandling, size kink, cumplay, finger sucking, spit roasting, hair pulling, voyeurism, | petnames: (hers) princess, bitch, whore, baby (s.coups) cheol, douche, dick, daddy (mingyu) gyu.

Summary/Preview: "come on, let’s just go back to snakes and ladders and you can pretend we’re not snowed in with no firewood and a dude you hate locked in the bathroom."

inflection point series by @lovelyhan

Pairing: jeonghan x reader x seungcheol

Wordcount: 6.3k + 8.3k + 7.6k

Tags: unresolved emotional tension, friends to lovers on the hannie side of things, lovers to exes to enemies to lovers again on the cheol side of things, established relationship, angst, smut

Warnings: | pt.2 : implied alcohol consumption, graphic sexual content (minors dni!!) | pt.3 : graphic sexual content (minors dni!!)

Summary: you love yoon jeonghan. no, scratch that. you fucking adore yoon jeonghan; so much that the moment he asks you to be in an exclusive set-up with his current partner, you accept the offer in a heartbeat. what you fail to consider, however, is who your boss’ boyfriend actually is.

Bite That Lip | One-Shot (Seungcheol) by @beahae

Pairings: Seungcheol/S.Coups x Reader(f)

Rating/genre: M18+, friends-with-benefits to ???; smut 💖, mild angst/fluff

Word Count: 6.3k

Warnings: Explicit smut, unprotected vaginal penetration, spanking, dom!Cheol and sub!reader, finger sucking, Cheol and Mingyu both lift and carry reader, reader wears workout clothes (sports bra, leggings), sorta sweaty sex, creampie, degradation, kind of breeding kink (depends what you consider a breeding kink to be), reader is referred to as ‘brat’ and ‘a hole’, pet name ‘baby’, begging, possessiveness/jealousy but it’s like hot and not crazy in my opinion, reader is a tease and brat but only before the smut lol

Summary: Seungcheol knows you're really close with his whole friend group. But now that things have... quietly been developing between the two of you, he would love it if you'd cool it with the heavy flirting with the other guys.

in the eye of the beholder by @cheolism

Pairing: choi seungcheol x fem!reader

Wordcount: 6.2k

Tags: boyfriend!cheol, dom!cheol, possessive cheol. wall sex, fingering, oral; unprotected sex. worshipful sex. cheol's crude mouth, dirty talk. crying during sex from pleasure, mating press, spitting, hair pulling, consensual choking (just a little). pet names (princess, baby, sweetheart, angel, pretty girl, beautiful). simp seungcheol, his real spending addiction. he's going to tell you you're beautiful until you believe it.

Warnings: MDNI. fat/chubby!reader, insecurity, internalized fatphobia, anxiety. mentions of fatness, stretchmarks, love handles.

Summary: when you don't like how you look in the mirror, your boyfriend decides to take it upon himself to worship you.

F*ck, Marry, Kill: With the Experienced by @bitchlessdino

Pairing: fem!reader x ex!mingyu x seungcheol x wonwoo

Genre: smut

Wordcount: 5.6k

Tags: poly, exhibitionism, voyeurism, degradation, pet names (princess), unprotected sex (except cheol), praise kink, spanking, clit slapping, fingering, oral (rec. and giving), u, pussy slapping, ass play, triple penetration

Summary: one dumb party game makes a comeback.

#seventeen #seventeen fic rec #seventeen smut #seventeen fluff #seventeen x reader #scoups fic recs #scoups #scoups smut #scoups fluff #scoups x reader #seungcheol #seungcheol fic recs #seungcheol smut #seungcheol fluff #seungcheol x reader

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thelaughtercafe · 2 months

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Leon, Gundham, Kazuichi, Kiyotaka and Mondo finding out you're ticklish

Tea Type: Rose Boba

Potential Triggers: N/A

Pairing: Leon/F! Reader, Gundham/F! Reader, Kazuichi/F! Reader, Taka/F! Reader, Mondo/F! Reader

Length: 1k+

Summary: N/A

Leon Kuwata:

He’d find out while nudging you or something; I headcanon Leon as pretty affectionate and touchy-feely so I could definitely see him hugging you from behind and accidentally getting your waist or hips.

He just likes to hear you laugh honestly! Simple as that for him. It’s a bonus if you don’t mind or even enjoy it lol.

He teases very casually and loves the way it flusters you.

“Man, how the Hell did I not know this earlier? Now I’ve got so much missed time to make up on! You better help me out, okay?”

“Aw you’re so much more ticklish than I thought you’d be! Fuck, why is that so cute?”

I also feel like he absolutely uses his goatee and mouth to tickle. I dunno why, maybe it’s cause of all the piercings?

Either way, I totally see him nuzzling your neck at all the wrong times like a jackass and when you whirl to glare at him he steals a kiss as he spiders his fingers up your side.

“I could be a lot meaner if i wanted to. cutie- maybe you should be thankful I’m so kind hm?”

Then he’s off like a shot, as if he didn’t just put you in a mood.

Rough boy who doesn’t mean to be rough when he tickles

It just comes naturally from his strength

Just ask him to lighten his touch up or say it hurts and he’ll quickly lighten up a bit with a sheepish expression.

Gundham Tanaka:

Honestly? I think the Dark Devas of Destruction helped out the poor guy cause there was no way he’d make the first move otherwise.

ABSOLUTE. FUCKING. BABY.

Oh, he plays it off with his lingo, but he’s bright red and barely managing not to hide behind his scarf.

Is this it? The opportunity to finally initiate physical contact with his fellow royal of Hell?

He decides to take the chance.

He hears your laugh as one of the Devas cuddles along your neck or scurries under your shirt playfully and comments on it.

“Ah, so this is the spell you mean to cast, is it? Well, I cannot let your efforts go unaided! Allow me to assist you in this humorous endeavor!”

Begin wrecking.

Surprisingly strong. This isn’t talked about enough imo but man went up against Nekomaru in a metal body and beat him.

He could pin you with ease to wreck you, is what I’m saying.

But contrary to that strength, Gundham is a gentle ler. But it’s a varied gentleness.

So, he’ll always keep his touch light and feathery but occasionally use his nails to scribble at your ribs or dig into your sides.

Kazuichi Souda:

Little gremlin. Only one on this list who finds out from intentionally initiating. Guys a playful ler through and through.

It’s one of his go to methods for bonding actually. …Even if Fuyuhiko decked him in the face when he tried, and Nagito’s luck had him go face first into a tree.

Worth it.

But with you, he tries and is happily surprised. Success! Without him being injured for once! Huzzah!

Such a teasy jerk oh my God. Goes with the classics.

“Coochie coochie coo! Aw, it can’t be that bad, can it? Too bad! I don’t feel like stopping just yet!”

Of course, if you’re genuinely begging. he’ll stop; he’s not a monster.

Hope you like being tickled cause boy is he gonna be a damn pest about it.

The whole class knows and offers their condolences since they’ve been his victims, attempted or successful before.

Getting this out of the way and my system right off the bat.

Tickle machines to your specific preferences because he’s the Ultimate Mechanic.

That is all.

Kiyotaka Ishimaru:

I think Taka finds out totally by accident. He’s probably helping you study for an upcoming test and moves to see the page only to brush over your side.

You flinch, gasp or otherwise let him know he just did something and he frowns in concern.

“You okay? Why’d you jump like that? I didn’t hurt you did I?”

Worried he was over rough in his excitement to see your notes, he lifts your shirt despite your protest and runs his fingers over the area.

When you abruptly burst into laughter at his prodding he relaxes and grins.

“Why didn’t you just tell me you were ticklish? That’s nothing to be ashamed of, and I’ll prove it to you!”

He gently tugs you over to the bed and straddles your waist.

The type to spout off facts completely unironically but it comes off totally teasy and makes everything tickle more.

“See, if I straddle you like this I can attack both your upper and lower body at once! Aren’t such tactics fascinating?”

He demonstrated by squeezing your knee and scribbling along your tummy, shouting over your laughter.

Mondo Owada:

He’ll likely find out when he playfully picks you up. You guys are meeting up to hang out and he surprises you by picking you up from behind under your arm.

Gets confused when you start laughing and squirming so he doesn’t put you down till you say it tickles- then he finally does.

“Aw geez, that’s all it was? I thought you were having a seizure on me for a second there. You must be really ticklish for just me picking you up to getcha huh?”

Most don’t expect Mondo to be a big tickler because of his tough exterior but you know better so you smile nervously and are already backing away before bolting.

You don’t make it very far before he’s tackling you to the ground and digging into your hipbones.

Absolutely uses it under the guise of “endurance training”.

“C'mon I know you can take more than this! We gotta beat your score from last time! I know you can last longer than 10 minutes!!”

The type of ler to go for a death spot immediately and make you scream.

Likes to use his strength for something so fun honestly.

If you try to get him back in front of his friends in the biker gang? He’ll either get flustered or he’ll smirk and wreck you right there.

No in-between.

“Well, you were gonna fuckin’ try and get me in front of my boys-only fair if I do the same, right?"

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