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zukoshotleafjuice · 4 months

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Katara and Aang’s devotion and commitment to one another is the reason why we ship them romantically. Kataang shippers are the only ones writing content that highlights their bond while everyone else ignores it in favor of other ships. Just because YOU prefer it platonically and want to analyze their scenes as a friendship (which you can? No one is stopping you?) doesn’t mean you can control how others interpret their scenes. If shipping is about harmless fun why are you upset that people view all their scenes through a romantic light? That’s literally what shipping is? Everyone in the fandom does it with their ships and all of the major ships are overwhelmingly viewed through a romantic context, canon or not. It seems like you’re just upset that the show went a romantic direction with Kataang because you prefer them platonically. Naturally it makes sense that two people who are each other’s person would eventually explore this bond romantically (though they should’ve been older).

First of all, take a deep breath. My post was fundamentally an appreciation of Katara and Aang's relationship, so frankly I fail to understand the level of defensiveness I'm reading in this ask.

Yes, my post contained minor critique of shipping culture and the way that their relationship was written in the show. I can elaborate below if you require me to clarify.

When I said the romance detracts from the relationship, it was a criticism of fandom engagement with all the ATLA and specifically the way stans of every ship use ship-wars as an excuse to hate on and detract from their very real connection. I think Kataang's romantic scenes in the show were not compellingly written. They did not give them enough time in the second half of S3 to properly engage with and discuss their relationship. I agree they should've been older, and I think their relationship makes a lot of sense as they age up. However, the writers of this show were more interested in resolving the shipping clashes and creating 'canon' endings than anything else, so they rushed the story in the show itself.

Due to this, the ship-wars only intensified. This has led to incredibly bad-faith interpretations of key scenes in the show. For example, I have seen people engage the Southern Raiders (an episode fundamentally about Katara and Katara's trauma) solely to further one ship over another. This bothers me because it is simply poor media analysis.

My post was more of a critique of the Zvt*ra (censored only so that it doesn't clog the tags) side of the fanbase, and not yours, actually. But frankly, your defensive response is why it's so incredibly difficult to engage with this fandom. Assuming I'm 'hating' and just 'upset that people view their scenes in a romantic light' is, once again, detracting from the fact that my post was ultimately to highlight the incredibly beautiful and interesting relationship between these two characters.

#thanks for the friendly reminder for why i stopped engaging with this fanbase #there's a sheer lack of desire to thoughtfully and respectfully discuss anything at all #the TLDR of my post was literally 'even if you don't ship them you have got to appreciate their connection' and somehow you still got mad #anyway i'm going to stay in the zukka tags because while i don't even ship THEM at least their stans act relatively normal #atla #fandom crit #asks

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mouthwheatboy · 3 years

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4,5, 13, 16 Ily!!

4: Do you have a NoTP in your fandom? Are they a popular OTP?

i actually just answered this one in the previous ask! but if if I had to pick another one it’d be jetara. they are simply best friends

5: Has fandom ever ruined a pairing for you?

I wouldn’t say it’s been ruined, moreso changed, but my feelings about Zukka are different because of how some Zukka shippers are. the rampant nsfw content and the racist stuff like yikes! yikes.

13: Unpopular opinion about XXX character?

unpopular opinion about zuko: the fanon interpretation of him is SO off imo. like yes he is awkward and by the end of the series more in touch with his emotions but he is first and foremost constantly angry. he yells all the time and he’s prone to random outbursts it’s just how he is.

16: If you could change anything in the show, what would you change?

alllll the gross racist stuff but i’d start with the way they painted jet in such a negative light only to kill him off with no real resolution, his death having amounted to nothing seeing as zuko found appa anyway. jet deserved better than to be villainized the way he was.

#anti jetara #zukka fandom crit #do not get me wrong i do really like zukka though!!#zuko #don't get me wrong about zuko either lol i love him #anti bryke #this is a bryke hate account #ryn dot ask #simran tag #SIMRAN I LOVE YOU SO MUCH

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army-of-mai-lovers · 3 years

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in which I get progressively angrier at the various tropes of atla fandom misogyny

tbh I think it would serve all of us to have a larger conversation about the specific ways misogyny manifests in this fandom, because I’ve seen a lot of people who characterize themselves as feminists, many of whom are women themselves, discuss the female characters of atla/lok in misogynistic ways, and people don’t talk about it enough.

disclaimer before I start: I’m not a woman, I’m an afab nonbinary person who is semi-closeted and thus often read as a woman. I’m speaking to things that I’ve seen that have made me uncomfy, but if any women (esp women existing along other axes of oppression, e.g. trans women, women of color, disabled women, etc) want to add onto this post, please do!

“This female character is a total badass but I’m not even a little bit interested in exploring her as a human being.”

I’ve seen a lot of people say of various female characters in atla/lok, “I love her! She’s such a badass!” now, this statement on its own isn’t misogynistic, but it represents a pretty pervasive form of misogyny that I’ve seen leveled in large part toward the canon female love interests of one or both of the members of a popular gay ship (*cough* zukka *cough*) I’m going to use Suki as an example of this because I see it with her most often, but it can honestly be applied to nearly every female character in atla/lok. Basically, people will say that they stan Suki, but when it comes time to engage with her as an actual character, they refuse to do it. I’ve seen meta after meta about Zuko’s redemption arc, but I so rarely see people engage with Suki on any level beyond “look at this cool fight scene!” and yeah, I love a cool Suki fight scene as much as anybody else, but I’m also interested in meta and headcanons and fics about who she is as a person, when she isn’t an accessory to Sokka’s development or doing something cool. of course, the material for this kind of engagement with Suki is scant considering she doesn’t have a canon backstory (yet) (don’t let me down Faith Erin Hicks counting on you girl) but with the way I’ve seen people in this fandom expand upon canon to flesh out male characters, I know y’all have it in you to do more with Suki, and with all the female characters, than you currently do. frankly, the most engagement I’ve seen with Suki in mainstream fandom is justifying either zukki (which again, is characterizing her in relation to male characters, one of whom she barely interacts with in canon) or one of the Suki wlw pairings. which brings me to--

“I conveniently ship this female character whose canon love interest is one of the members of my favorite non-canon ship with another female character! gay rights!”

now, I will admit, two of my favorite atla ships are yueki and mailee, and so I totally understand being interested in these characters’ dynamics, even if, as is the case with yueki, they’ve never interacted canonically. however, it becomes a problem for me when these ships are always in the background of a zukka fic. at some point, it becomes obvious that you like this ship because it gets either Zuko or Sokka’s female love interests out of the way, not because you actually think the characters would mesh well together. It’s bad form to dislike a female character because she gets in the way of your gay ship, so instead, you find another girl to pair her off with and call it a day. to be clear, I’m not saying that everybody who ships either mailee or yueki (or tysuki or maisuki or yumai or whatever other wlw rarepair involving Zuko or Sokka’s canon love interests) is nefariously trying to sideline a female character while acting publicly as if she’s is one of their faves--far from it--but it is noteworthy to me how difficult it is to find content that centers wlw ships, while it’s incredibly easy to find content that centers zukka in which mailee and/or yueki plays a background role.

also, notice how little traction wlw Katara ships gain in this fandom. when’s the last time you saw yuetara on your dash? there’s no reason for wlw Katara ships to gain traction in a fandom that is so focused on Zuko and Sokka getting together, bc she doesn’t present an immediate obstacle to that goal (at least, not an obstacle that can be overcome by pairing her up with a woman). if you are primarily interested in Zuko and Sokka’s relationship, and your queer readings of other female characters are motivated by a desire to get them out of the way for zukka, then Katara’s canon m/f relationship isn’t a threat to you, and thus, there’s no reason to read her as potentially queer. Or even, really, to think about her at all.

“Katara’s here but she’s not actually going to do anything, because deep down, I’m not interested in her as a person.”

the show has an enormous amount of textual evidence to support the claim that Sokka and Katara are integral parts of each other’s lives. so, she typically makes some kind of appearance in zukka content. sometimes, her presence in the story is as an actual character with layers and nuance, someone whom Sokka cares about and who cares about Sokka in return, but also has her own life and goals outside of her brother (or other male characters, for that matter.) sometimes, however, she’s just there because halfway through writing the author remembered that Sokka actually has a sister who’s a huge part of the show they’re writing fanfiction for, and then they proceed to show her having a meetcute with Aang or helping Sokka through an emotional problem, without expressing wants or desires outside of those characters. I’m honestly really surprised that I haven’t seen more people calling out the fact that so much of Katara’s personality in fanon revolves around her connections to men? she’s Aang’s girlfriend, she’s Sokka’s sister, she’s Zuko’s bestie. never mind that in canon she spends an enormous amount of time fighting against (anachronistic, Westernized) sexism to establish herself as a person in her own right, outside of these connections. and that in canon she has such interesting complex relationships with other female characters (e.g. Toph, Kanna, Hama, Korra if you want to write lok content) or that there are a plethora of characters with whom she could have interesting relationships with in fanon (Mai, Suki, Ty Lee, Yue, Smellerbee, and if you want to write lok content, Kya II, Lin, Asami, Senna, etc). to me, the lack of fandom material exploring Katara’s relationships with other women or with herself speak to a profound indifference to Katara as a character. I’m not saying you have to like Katara or include her in everything you write, but I am asking you to consider why you don’t find her interesting outside of her relationships with men.

“I hate Katara because she talks about her mother dying too often.”

this is something I’ve seen addressed by people far more qualified than I to address it, but I want to mention it here in part because when I asked people which fandom tropes they wanted me to talk about, this came up often, but also because I find it really disgusting that this is a thing that needs to be addressed at all. Y’all see a little girl who watched her mother be killed by the forces of an imperialist nation and say that she talks about it too much??? That is a formational, foundational event in a child’s life. Of course she’s going to talk about it. I’ve seen people say that she doesn’t talk about it that often, or that she only talks about it to connect with other victims of fn imperialism e.g. Jet and Haru, but frankly, she could speak about it every episode for no plot-significant reason whatsoever and I would still be angry to see people say she talks about it too much. And before you even bring up the Sokka comparison, people deal with grief in different ways. Sokka repressed a lot of his grief/channeled it into being the “man” of his village because he knew that they would come for Katara next if he gave them the opportunity. he probably would talk about his mother more if a) he didn’t feel massive guilt at not being able to remember what she looked like, and b) he was allowed to be a child processing the loss of his mother instead of having to become a tiny adult when Hakoda had to leave to help fight the fn. And this gets into an intersection with fandom racism, in that white fans (esp white American fans) are incapable of relating to the structural trauma that both Sokka and Katara experience and thus can’t see the ways in which structural trauma colors every single aspect of both of their characters, leading them to flatten nuance and to have some really bad takes. And you know what, speaking of bad fandom takes--

“Shitting on Mai because she gets in the way of my favorite Zuko ship is actually totally okay because she’s ~abusive~”

y’all WHAT.

ok listen, I get not liking maiko. I didn’t like it when I first got into fandom, and later I realized that while bryke cannot write romance to save their lives, fans who like maiko sure can, so I changed my tune. but if you still don’t like it, that’s fine. no skin off my back.

what IS skin off my back is taking instances in which Mai had justified anger toward Zuko, and turning it into “Mai abused Zuko.” do you not realize how ridiculous you sound? this is another thing where I get so angry about it that I don’t know how useful my analysis is actually going to be, but I’ll do my best. numerous people have noted how analysis of Mai and Zuko’s breakup in “The Beach” or Mai being justifiably angry with him at Boiling Rock or her asking for FUCKING FRUIT in “Nightmares and Daydreams” that says that all of these events were her trying to gain control over him is....ahhh...lacking in reading comprehension, but I’d like to go a step further and talk about why y’all are so intent on taking down a girl who doesn’t show emotion in normative ways. obviously, there’s a “Zuko can do no wrong” aspect to Mai criticism (which is super weird considering how his whole arc is about how he can do lots of wrong and he has to atone for the wrong that he’s done--but that’s a separate post.) But I also see slandering Mai for not expressing her emotions normatively and not putting up with Zuko’s shit and slandering Katara for “talking about her mother too often” as two sides of the same coin. In both cases, a female character expresses emotions that make you, the viewer, uncomfortable, and so instead of attempting to understand where those emotions may have come from and why they might be manifesting the way they are, y’all just throw the whole character away. this is another instance of people in the fandom being fundamentally disinterested in engaging with the female characters of atla in a real way, except instead of shallowly “stanning” Mai, y’all hate her. so we get to this point where female characters are flattened into one of two things: perfect queens who can do no wrong, or bitches. and that’s not who they are. that’s not who anyone is. but while we as a fandom are pretty good at understanding b1 Zuko’s actions as layered and multifaceted even though he’s essentially an asshole then, few are willing to lend the same grace to any female character, least of all Mai.

and what’s funny is sometimes this trope will intersect with “I conveniently ship this female character whose canon love interest is one of the members of my favorite non-canon ship with another female character! gay rights!”, so you’ll have someone actively calling Mai toxic/problematic/abusive, and at the same time ship her with Ty Lee? make it make sense! but then again, maybe that’s happening because y’all are fundamentally disinterested in Ty Lee as a character too.

“I love Ty Lee so much that I’m going to treat her like an infantilized hypersexual airhead!”

there are so many things happening in y’alls characterization of Ty Lee that I struggled to synthesize it into one quippy section header. on one hand, you have the hypersexualization, and on the other hand, you have the infantilization, which just makes the hypersexualization that much worse.

(of course, sexualizing or hypersexualizing ANY atla character is really not the move, considering that these are child characters in a children’s show, but then again, that’s a separate post.)

now, I understand how, from a very, very surface reading of the text, you could come to the conclusion that Ty Lee is an uncomplicated bimbo. if you grew up on Western media the way I did, you’ll know that Ty Lee has a lot of the character traits we associate with bimbos: the form-fitting pink crop top, the general conventional attractiveness, the ditzy dialogue. but if you think about it for more than three seconds, you’ll understand that Ty Lee has spent her whole life walking a tightrope, trying to please Azula and the rest of the royal family while also staying true to herself. Ty Lee and Azula’s relationship is a really complex and interesting topic that I don’t really have time to explore at the moment given how long this post is, but I’d argue that Ty Lee’s constant, vocal adulation is at least partially a product of learning to survive at court at an early age. Like Mai, she has been forced to regulate her emotions as a member of fn nobility, but unlike Mai, she also has six sisters who look exactly like her, so she has a motivation to be more peppy and more affectionate to stand out.

fandom does not do the work to understand Ty Lee. as is a theme with this post, fandom is actively disinterested in investigating female characters beyond a very surface level reading of them. Thus, fandom takes Ty Lee’s surface level qualities--her love of the color pink, her revealing standard outfit, and the fact that once she found a boy attractive and also once a lot of boys found her attractive--and they stretch this into “Ty Lee is basically Karen Smith from Mean Girls.” thus, Ty Lee is painted as a bimbo, or more specifically, as not smart, uncritically adoring of Azula (did y’all forget all the non-zukka bits of Boiling Rock?), and attractive to the point of hypersexualization. I saw somebody make a post that was like “I wish mailee was more popular but I’m also glad it isn’t because otherwise people would write it as Mai having to put up with her dumb gf” and honestly I have to agree!! this is one instance in which I’m glad that fandom doesn’t discuss one of my favorite characters that often because I hate the fanon interpretation of Ty Lee, I think it’s rooted in misogyny (particularly misogyny against East Asian women, which often takes the form of fetishizing them and viewing them only through a Western white male gaze)

(side note: here at army-of-mai-lovers, we stan bimbos. bimbos are fucking awesome. I personally don’t read Ty Lee as a bimbo, but if that’s you, that’s fucking awesome. keep doing what you’re doing, queen <3 or king or monarch, it’s 2021, anyone can be a bimbo, bitches <3)

“Toph can and will destroy everyone here with her bare hands because she’s a meathead who likes to murder people and that’s it!”

Toph is, and always has been, one of my favorite ATLA characters. My very first fic in fandom was about her, and she appears prominently in a lot of my other work as well. One thing that I am always struck by with Toph is how big a heart she has. She’s independent, yes, snarky, yes, but she cares about people--even the family that forced her to make herself smaller because they didn’t believe that their blind daughter could be powerful and strong. Her storyline is powerful and emotionally resonant, her bending is cool precisely because it’s based in a “wait and listen” approach instead of just smashing things indiscriminately, she’s great disabled rep, and overall one of the best characters in the show.

And in fandom, she gets flattened into “snarky murder child.”

So where does this come from? Well, as we all know, Toph was originally conceived of as a male character, and retained a lot of androgyny (or as the kids call it, Gender) when she was rewritten as a female character. There are a lot of cultural ideas about androgynous/butch women being violent, and people in fandom seem to connect that larger cultural narrative with some of Toph’s more violent moments in the show to create the meathead murder child trope, erasing her canon emotionality, softness, heart, and femininity in the process.

This is not to say that you shouldn’t write or characterize Toph as being violent or snarky at all ever, because yeah, Toph definitely did do Earth Rumbles a lot before joining the gaang, and yeah, Toph is definitely a sarcastic person who makes fun of her friends a lot. What I am saying is that people take these traits, sans the emotional logic, marry them to their conception of androgynous/butch women as violent/unemotional/uncaring, and thus create a caricature of Toph that is not at all up to snuff. When I see Toph as a side character in a fic (because yeah, Toph never gets to be a main character, because why would a fandom obsessed with one male character in particular ever make Toph a protagonist in her own right?) she’s making fun of people, killing people, pranking people, etc, etc. She’s never talking to people about her emotions, or palling around with her found family, or showing that she cares about her friends. Everything about her relationship with her parents, her disability, her relationship to Gender, and her love of her friends is shoved aside to focus on a version of Toph that is mean and uncaring because people have gotten it into their heads that androgynous/butch women are mean and uncaring.

again, we see a female character who does not emote normatively or in a way that makes you, the viewer, comfortable, and so you warp her character until she’s completely unrecognizable and flat. and for what?

Azula

no, I didn’t come up with a snappy name for this section, mainly because fanon interpretations of Azula and my own feelings toward the character are...complicated. I know there were some people who wanted me to write about Azula and the intersection of misogyny and ableism in fanon interpretations of her character, but I don’t think I can deliver on that because I personally am in a period of transition with how I see Azula. that is to say, while I still like her and believe that she can be redeemed, there is a lot of merit to disliking her. the whole point of this post is that the female characters of ATLA are complex people whom the fandom flattens into stereotypes that don’t hold up to scrutiny, or dislike for reasons that don’t make sense. Azula, however, is a different case. the rise of Azula defenders and Azula stans has led to this sentiment that Azula is a 14 y/o abuse victim who shouldn’t be held accountable for her actions. it seems to me that people are reacting to a long, horrible legacy of male ATLA fans armchair diagnosing Azula with various personality disorders (and suggesting that people with those personality disorders are inherently monstrous and unlovable which ahhhh....yikes) and then saying that those personality disorders make her unlovable, which is quite obviously bad. and hey, I get loving a character that everyone else hates and maybe getting so swept up in that love that you forget that your fave is complicated and has made some unsavory choices. it sucks that fanon takes these well-written, complex villains/antiheroes and turns them into monsters with no critical thought whatsoever. but the attitude among Azula stans that her redemption shouldn’t be hard, that her being a child excuses all of the bad things that she’s done, that she is owed redemption....all of that rubs me the wrong way. I might make another post about this in the future that discusses this in more depth, but as it stands now: while I understand that there is a legacy of misogynistic, ableist, unnuanced takes on Azula, the backlash to that does not take into account the people she hurt or the fact that in ATLA she does not make the choice to pursue redemption. and yes, Zuko had help in making that choice that Azula didn’t, and yes, Azula is a victim of abuse, but in a show about children who have gone through untold horrors and still work to better the lives of the people around them, that is not enough for me to uncritically stan her.

Conclusion

misogyny in this fandom runs rampant. while there are some tropes of fandom misogyny that are well-documented and have been debunked numerous times, there are other, subtler forms of misogyny that as far as I know have gone completely unchecked.

what I find so interesting about misogyny in atla fandom is that it’s clear that it’s perpetrated by people who are aware of fandom misogyny who are actively trying not to be misogynistic. when I first joined atla fandom last summer, memes about how zukka fandom was better than every other fandom because they didn’t hate the female characters who got in the way of their gay ship were extremely prevalent, and there was this sense that *this* fandom was going to model respectful, fun, feminist online fandom. not all of the topes I’ve outlined are exclusive to or even largely utilized in zukka fandom, but a lot of them are. I’ve been in and out of fandom since I was eleven years old, and most of the fandom spaces I’ve been in have been majority-female, and all of them have been incredibly misogynistic. and I always want to know why. why, in these communities created in large part by women, in large part for women, does misogyny run wild? what I realize now is that there’s never going to be a one-size fits all answer to that question. what’s true for 1D fandom on Wattpad in 2012 is absolutely not true for atla fandom on tumblr in 2021. the answers that I’ve cobbled together for previous fandoms don’t work here.

so, why is atla fandom like this? why did the dream of a feminist fandom almost entirely focused on the romantic relationship between two male characters fall apart? honestly, I think the notion that zukka fandom ever was this way was horrifically ignorant to begin with. from my very first moment in the fandom, I was seeing racism, widespread sexualization of minors, and yes, misogyny. these aspects of the fandom weren’t talked about as much as the crocverse or other, much more fun aspects. further, atla (specifically zukka) fandom misogyny often doesn’t look like the fandom misogyny we’ve become familiar with from like, Sherlock fandom or what have you. for the most part, people don’t actively hate Suki, they just “stan” without actually caring about her. they hate Mai because they believe in treating male victims of abuse equally. they’re not characterizing Toph poorly, they’re writing her as a “strong woman.” in short, people are misogynistic, and then invoke a shallow, incomplete interpretation of feminist theory to shield themselves from accusations of misogyny. it’s not unlike the way some people will invoke a shallow, incomplete interpretation of critical race theory to shield themselves from accusations of racism, or how they’ll talk about “freedom of speech” and “the suppression of women’s sexuality” to justify sexualizing minors. the performance of feminism and antiracism is what’s important, not the actual practice.

if you’ve made it this far, first off, hi, thanks so much for reading, I know this was a lot. second, I would seriously encourage you to be aware of these fandom tropes and to call them out when you see them. elevate the voices of fans who do the work of bringing the female characters of atla to life. invest in the wlw ships in this fandom. drop a kudos and a comment on a rangshi fic (please, drop a kudos and a comment on a rangshi fic). read some yuetara. let’s all be honest about where we are now, and try to do better in the future. I believe in us.

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aroace-mako · 4 years

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[ID: a picture of Bernie Sanders from the “i am once again asking meme” with white bottom text that reads: “i am once again asking you to stop writing jet as zuko’s toxic ex in your zukka fic. END ID]

i’m not even asking u at the point, i’m telling you

#i’m sorry i’m awful at ids #which is why usually i leave them to actually competent people #but when it’s my own post i have to #feel free to give me constructive criticism #jet #zukka #atla fandom crit #atla

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salt-bender · 3 years

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Look, head canons are supposed to be fun. But in big fandoms, it's very likely that everyone will have there own different headcanons.

So why are we shaming people who have unpopular headcanons?

I have seen this specifically in the zvkka and tyzvla fandoms, where zuko and azula are unarguably 100% gay, and any one who ships them with a character from the opposite sex is considered a homophobic, even if in Canon there is no confirmed sexualty for them.

Like literally zvkkas say shit like this

Like.... yes I can headcanon him as bi, what's your problem?

First, he is not canonicaly gay. So yeah I am not erasing shit.

Second of all, his endgame in the CANON is with mai, so I have very valid right to ship him with women.

I am not saying you should head canon him as bi, every one has their own interpretation. BUT acting all mighty and all right for just a headcanon is stupid, sorry I am not wrong for that headcanon, it's MY HEADCANON. MY INTERPRETATION.

Like, it's people like you that ruins the fandom experience.

And in a similar point lesbian azula headcanon is cool and all (I headcanon her as a lesbian too), but don't act like that is the only valid interpretation of her.

And mostly don't attack people for a fucking fictional ship, especially if in Canon there was no representation of gay relationships.

#atla fandom problems #anti zukka #anti tyzula #< i am not anti the ships but anti this toxic behavior #anti zukka fandom #zuko #azula #atla fandom crit #mine*

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listless-brainrot · 3 years

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i find it pretty odd how people are so willing to discuss how colorism and racism impacts jet’s character and interpretations and how his trauma has affected him in such profound ways and how tragic his entire characterization and arc was wasted and how his legacy is completely trampled on for kicks

yet they aren’t as willing to criticize these things the moment that they pertain to ships.

unfortunately, colorism is pretty inherent with his character due to the narrative and how he is portrayed. he’s villainized and not given a chance at redemption while the imperialists and even his own parent’s murderers are given solid storylines within and out of canon, he is one of the more darker skinned characters in the show and by design he is supposed to be unlikable and “villain-esque”, his drastic motives and actions paint extremism in an inherently negative light and are condemned when other characters have done much worse and have received little to no consequences... i could honestly go on.

these are points brought up again and again by disgruntled fans and are extremely valid criticisms of his character and writing, especially when most of these critiques have been repeated by poc within the fandom.

that’s because these tropes and biases make their way into fandom works, whether you realize it or not.

there are so many pieces of fanart with jet that sexualize him to an uncomfortable degree (i could go on google right now and find a borderline nsfw picture of him even with safesearch on) even though he’s 16-17. there are people who take his smooth personality and use it to characterize him as outright abusive and manipulative. there is a tag on ao3 that explicitly calls him an asshole and has multiple works. there are so many works on that site that make jet out to be a really shitty person (usually by making him a shitty ex) to support a “better” ship, and there are numerous nsfw works that involve him.

these things have repeated, even with the resurgence of the atla in more recent years, and you really can’t blame all of it on canon. there is practically no canon basis for him being outright abusive, even if he did lie to the gaang in his episode. there is practically no basis for him being someone who enjoys violence, even if he does go to extremes with flooding gaipan and breaks into the tea shop to apprehend zuko and iroh. there is practically no canon basis for some of these blatant mischaracterizations, and are instead built upon gross stereotypes and unnecessary vilification, which reinforce the biases.

look, i get it- shipping is a really personal experience. people are very attached to these characters together and apart, and i’m not saying any of this to discourage anyone from creating.

but i do say this to encourage you to be more critical, especially when it comes to characterizations and ships.

as a poc, seeing so many racist takes on a character i really enjoy makes it hard for me to have a pleasant fandom experience. i would love to really get into some of these ships and enjoy them just as much as everyone else, but because i see this behavior constantly, it’s really deterring and disheartening.

i know people don’t always intend to have these biases within their works, and re-evaluation and holding yourself accountable isn’t a simple process. but at least recognize some of these tropes in the content you consume and see how it may affect your own perceptions.

#i'm just saying that people tend to mischaracterize jet the most when it comes to the cast #and that racism and colorism have a part to play in these mischaracterizations #and people are aware of them! people take active steps to avoid doing this and good on you if you do that #but there are some people who have these in depth analyses of his character that completely go out the door when shipping him #they're able to analyze him as a character separate from the ship but within the ship there are tropes being enforced and played out #these are common criticisms within other major ships as well namely zukka and zutara and etc etc etc #but i have yet to really see anyone hold themselves accountable for the way they treat jet #as if the horrible treatment of character was just. something they never did to begin with #when in most cases this simply isn't true.#we can be better guys #if this is the fandom that is so woke and progressive then just hear me out #because we can be much better #jet #atla jet #jet atla #atla #avatar the last airbender #fandom #fandom crit #atla crit #atla meta #i'm not tagging ships as the message of this is so broad but if you think i should please let me know #jet discourse #original #jet meta

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sucrepudding · 4 years

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I like zukka but tbh the fans aren't absolved from racist shit either. Like if yall put sokka in the fire nation full time because of zuko that's racist. He wouldn't have any titles because again like fire lady katara that's assimilation and racist.

#all the people who arent indigenous clowning about titles is disgusting #leo.txt #atla #zukka #avatar #avatar the last airbender #fandom crit

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tea-and-la · 3 years

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i *love* that some people’s idea of atla being adding onto Netflix being a ‘mistake’ is bc of people “bashing” (in parenthesis bc some critiques do not equal bashing and most of the time, those critiques are of Bryke) aang.

instead of, you know, the fact that countless people in fandom have made an agenda of invalidating people’s LGBTQ+ identities j bc they don’t ship a certain ship, sending death and r*** threats to real human people, called bipoc “animals and implied that they were mentally ill. not to mention the groupchat of people on Twitter who banded together to make a “hit list” of zks to stalk and subsequently had plans to doxx and reveal their personal information.

and i’m not saying that this situation is unique to zks because I’ve heard that Zukkas also were unfortunately subjected to death threats, and hate etc. no one deserves that. and imo, THAT’S why putting atla on Netflix was a mistake. Bc some weirdos can’t handle that someone else likes a ship that’s different from theirs so they resort to violence. It’s never that serious.

#atla #atla fandom crit #what would your fave characters think of your actions towards other people?#i don’t like seeing extremely inaccurate takes of Aang either bc i like him #but when someone is just pointing out why they think a certain ship is incompatible without being extreme about it leave them alone #and at the end of the day these are CHARACTERS #critiques of them will NEVER hold the same weight as the people who think it’s ok to violent hate any fanbase #whether it’s Zutara or zukka #theres no reason to attack real people #that’s actually the reason ATLA fandom got bad #and so many people had to leave bc of their mental health and/or for their safety #we gotta start prioritizing being kind to real people #regardless of if they like our ship #it’s human decency not to call someone the r slur over a ship #or to imply that they’re faking their LGBTQ+ identity so they don’t seem het #there needs to be more inter fanbase kindness #literally why do some of the ppl in this fandom care enough to be so violent?#I personally don’t care if ppl like my ships but I care when people make whole assumptions about entire fanbases #i think ppl should ship what makes them happy #within reason ofc

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theolddivorcedzukka · 3 years

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I’m not a massive zukka shipper, and I thought it was a fine ship like I’m okay with it but not madly into it. And I always resented for example ships like zvtara because I obviously for one, see nothing to it other than a strict friendship, but the shippers...they are something else. Honestly made me despise the ship because of how much they push to prove that it was meant to happen and tear down other ships and characters and get mixed up with what’s canon and fanon. But with Zukka I saw more of an appeal to it and the shippers seemed chill and really nice so that made it better but saw your post there about the bad zukka fandom and I’m kinda shocked because i never see that happen but yet I’m not really in the fandom. But if you’re up to it can you dig a small bit deeper into what you were saying in your other post? Like what exactly do some of them do like you mentioned the wlw ships, ext.

i am going to create a reply that is so incoherent and all over the place. sorry about taking so long

once again, i am hiding this under the “read more” because i am shy and don’t want this to end in the tag

i mean, i get your point. the fandom does seem really chill at first

and then you unlock lore.

and like i did say the fandom was horrible in that ask but it’s really just about finding the right people to follow because like yeah every fandom is going to have some shitty people and the best you can do is just avoid ig

anyway, so the thing i mentioned with the wlw ships is that they’re mostly put in the background of zukka fics and like okay yeah it’s nice to have background relationships in fics to add a little bit of spice but sometimes (and i don’t know if this makes sense at all) those relationships don’t even feel like. you know. relationships??? like you wouldn’t even notice that they’re a couple until it’s explicitly mentioned and that just :/

and if you want to find a mailee or yueki fic, you have to dig so fucking deep bestie because my god. please tag correctly. begging.

okay now about the tropes…bestie the most popular trope on the atla ao3 tag is “zuko is an awkward turtleduck” which is like TOTALLY INCORRECT and then sokka is written as suave and stupid (my boy? stupid? shut up forever)

and uhh i don’t remember what else i wrote in the post but i did mention the fandom is…the fandom is definitely a fandom. you know that one post that is like “you know a fandom is bad when it has leaders”??? yeah exactly. no i don’t want to elaborate because i may be stupid but i am also a coward :)

god this got long and all over the place, i’m sorry anon. i hope this is at least a bit comprehensible

#i didn’t proofread this #anyway #*slams post*#zukka crit #atla fandom crit

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bum-ju · 3 years

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Could you go into more depth about the racist tropes and zukka please?

sure!

i’ve never been super into zukka, and i don’t usually read fanfic, so my explanation likely won’t hit all the points since i’m not familiar with them. also note that while i’m a poc, i am light skinned and japanese (similar ethnicity as zuko is implied to be).

that said, the biggest points here are firstly, the common z//utara trope of the fire monarch. secondly, the dynamic between the two and the archetypes (based on racist tropes) they are often written as.

the z//utara tropes. fire monarch tropes (fire lady katara/fire prince sokka) are bad because it makes a water tribe person, someone directly negatively impacted by the fire nation monarchy, part of the fn monarchy. it also comes with moving away from the water tribe and living full time in the fn. this means that these characters are made to abandon the culture they are, in canon, very connected to, which reeks of gentrification. it’s also plain insensitive to the pain that the fire nation has caused the water tribes... no water tribe person would want to live the rest of their life in the halls of the people who gave the orders to commit genocide against their people.

the dynamic/archetypes. the dynamic between sokka and zuko is generally that zuko is the fragile and highly targeted firelord in distress, and sokka is the strong, dependable warrior who protects him. this is racist on two fronts. sokka is a dark skinned moc. many darkskinned people, especially men, are stereotyped as strong, warriorlike, uncivilized, protectors. this is harmful because it suggests that men of color are dangerous, other, and violent. only portraying sokka as the protector encourages this harmful view of men of color. this ‘strong’ stereotype also leads to a disregard for the emotional and mental wellbeing of moc. it means that sokka’s feelings are often pushed down to make room for zuko’s.

zuko is a light skinned asian man. light skinned asian men are often infantilized, and portraying zuko as a damsel in distress only fuels this stereotype. this happens to overlap with the fact that a considerable part of the fandom considers zuko to be neurodivergent/autistic coded, a group who are also constantly infantilized. when he isn’t infantilized, he is sexualized. he is a sixteen year old child from a children’s show, you should not be sexualizing him (either of them) at all.

not to mention the ‘top vs bottom’ dynamic that many people obsess over in queer pairings. disregarding the disgusting idea of sexualizing children, this also plays into the racist and homophobic dynamics: that the light skinned, feminine character plays the submissive role, and the dark skinned, masculine character plays the domineering role. queer men are not substitutes for already misogynistic heterosexual dynamics (submissive woman vs dominant man). they are not self inserts for heterosexual women (straight women imagining themselves as zuko, therefore deciding to feminize the bottom character).

there are many more layers to this, i’m sure. but this is the most of it. dark skinned men of color are not violent, dominating protectors and deserve attention and care. light skinned men of color are not helpless, dumb babies, they deserve to be listened to and respected. queer stories are not for cishet women to insert themselves into. shipping two men does not make you a gay ally, educating yourself and supporting queer people does. white people/cishet women do not clown on this post. queer poc feel free to add.

#white/cishet women can ask questions but dont be stupid #anti zukka #sexualization of minors #racism #fandom crit #queerphobia #genocide #ask to tag #ask #anon #sokka #zuko

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ladywind · 3 years

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lollllllll and like. the ppl writing zukka porn r almost all adult women. hm rly makes u think abt the level of fetisization that runs rampant in fandom spaces. just because tumblr got rid of the word fujoshi doesnt mean those ppl dont exist hello??? and literally they have a HUGE following and almost their own fandom like. open your eyes. you reblogging a post that says “dont sexualize children!11!!11″ and then reading porn of “”aged up”” 15 year olds literally makes you just as bad (if not worse) as the authors. its quite literally infuriating to to see the ridiculous amount of sexualization in a fandom of a show that’s targeted to kids. TO KIDS. that means when i scroll through the zukka fic recs tag i should not see literal masterlists of smut. literally you weirdos make fandom so uncomfortable and you are the reason mlm are seen as “uwu soft boys” or just weird heterosexual offshoots.

#atla #zukka #fandom crit #pinned #phroggie.txt

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army-of-mai-lovers · 3 years

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zukka fandom: *pushes out kids uncomfy with nsfw, poc, anybody critical of the way they write women, etc etc until it’s just a bunch of white adults with internalized misogyny and the exact same opinions*

zukka fandom: what I love about this fandom is that there isn’t any drama

#y'all got to be joking right?#like-#i know a hell of a lot of poc/teens/women who won't touch #zukka w a ten foot pole now?#do you not remember literally all of december?#listen I should stop vaguing but rn i'm gonna hella vague y'all need to get your hwite heads out of your hwite asses and ask yourself #'why in a fandom about a show made up entirely of poc are all of my mutuals white?'#give it a think #fandom crit #zukka crit

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i-hate-mayo · 3 years

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so i love zukka right?? but i also like zutara and other ships that conflict with zukka and something that i've been seeing is a lot of disgusting hatred aimed towards zutara shippers and especially the zutara shippers who are woc...like at the end of the day it's literally a kids tv show where the focus is NOT the romantic relationships, and even beyond that, it's never ok to be racist or homophobic to people?? and to be these things in the name of a ship that involves both moc and lgbt characters is just??? the cognitive disconnect?? literally just live your own life and leave other people alone?? especially when your point of conflict is who you ship cartoon characters with?? like yeah there are problematic interpretations of zutara (which should not be perpetuated) but there are problematic ones of zukka as well?? i just think people get so caught up in their fantasies and fandoms that they don't realize that a fandom is all that it is?? and why of all groups would you attack women of color?? not that you should attack anyone over a ship but like really?? women of color??

#fandom crit #the excessive use of question marks really gets my point across i think #its just disappointing to see #god this got long #but i follow some zutara blogs and theyve been saying this for a long time so i thought id repeat it #zutara #zukka #zukka crit #zuko #katara #:/#atla #avatar the last airbender #please dont come after me with not all zukka shippers #yeah i know #and thats who i follow

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salt-bender · 3 years

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"Zvtara was robbed" "zvkka was robbed"

Can yall shut up plz, why is this obsession with Canon?

Yall love to claim that you hate the Canon soo much yet you keep pegging recognition from it.

Why can't people enjoy their Ships in fanon, instead of blaming everyone and whining about the fact that they were wronged by the writers.

I swear if I see anyone complaining that their ship should become Canon I will riot😤

#atla fandom crit #ship wars #anti zutara #anti zukka #atla fandom problems #mine*

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