#THE FACT THAT A LOT OF THESE FIT THE CHARACTERS.... | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

ach-sss-no · 2 days

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someone asked why i loudly asserted that the stewing rabbits bit of lotr is the opposite book vs. movie and i think it is time to move off of the giant reblog chain i'm making

The Premise: Sam, Frodo and Gollum are all doing the opposite of what they are doing in the book in some fashion or another

(first off: in the movie they abandon the stew and don't eat it. the book takes a lot longer with all of this, and they do in fact eat the stew, and I definitely understand the movie couldn't be as expansive with the pacing but it's just. funny to me. they don't eat the stew vs. they do eat the stew, there's your first opposite)

now. THE SCENE: Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit

(Small disclaimer/disclosure: I referenced the script instead of a movie clip for this, so there may be some nuance missed in visuals or whatever but I don't think it would be enough of a difference to matter and hopefully you will soon see why not)

Frodo

Starting with him because this is simplest.

In the movie, Frodo is just sitting there minding his own business when Gollum dumps dead rabbits in his lap. (Then he doesn't interact with the ensuing conversation at all)

In the book he's asleep when Gollum brings the rabbits and does not participate in the scene. Okay, so he's awake vs. asleep. Easy.

(Also, book Frodo didn't witness the conflict between the other two characters and had no opportunity to intervene, which creates an interesting 'what could have been', but I am digressing. We are only 10% of the way in. buckle up)

Sam

In the movie, Sam is passive and reacting. Gollum dumps dead rabbits in Mr. Frodo's lap oh no what do I guess we'll cook them

In the book, Sam is active and orchestrating events.

Sam decides of his own accord that he wants to address their dwindling supplies:

Sam had been giving earnest thought to food as they marched. Now that the despair of the impassable Gate was behind him, he did not feel so inclined as his master to take no thought for their livelihood beyond the end of their errand; [in case you forgot. Earlier on Sam was like 'we won't have enough food for the way back' and frodo essentially responds with 'the way back. oh you sweet summer child'] and anyway it seemed wiser to him to save the waybread of the Elves for worse times ahead.

Note: This is all very good reasoning by Mr. Samwise and an excellent example of why he's so necessary to the quest! Yes, staying alive is step one.

But Where to get food? In both movie and book Sam is taking advantage of his resources (dead rabbits acquired via gollum), but in the book he's way more proactive about it:

An idea struck him and he turned to Gollum. Gollum had just begun to sneak off on his own, and he was crawling away on all fours through the fern. 'Hi! Gollum!' said Sam. 'Where are you going? Hunting? Well see here, old noser, you don't like our food, and I'd not be sorry for a change myself. Your new motto's always ready to help. Could you find anything fit for a hungry hobbit? ' 'Yes, perhaps, yes,' said Gollum. 'Sméagol always helps, if they asks-- if they asks nicely.' 'Right!' said Sam. 'I does ask. And if that isn't nice enough, I begs.'

In this point in the book Sam has now:

Decided of his own accord that he has a problem and that he wants to actively solve it

Arrived at a solution to the problem without any outside help or suggestions

Commanded Gollum to go hunt

In the point in the movie Sam has done:

Nothing

I'm not exaggerating. In the movie the scene hasn't started yet.

In both book and movie, rabbits are acquired a little while later. In the book this is a nonevent because Sam requested and expected rabbits. In the movie, the rabbits unexpectedly appear, and Gollum says they are for the hobbits to eat (Sam doesn't even come up with the idea to eat them on his own!)

They are young. They are tender. They are nice. Yes they are! Eat them! Eat them! [He bites and tears into the raw meat.]

GOLLUM SHOWED HIM HOW TO EAT THEM LIKE A MOTHER CAT.

Anyway, in the movie, we just cut to Sam stewing the rabbits after that.

But in the book, Sam isn't done arranging things:

He thought for a bit, while he took out his knife, cleaned and whetted it, and began to dress the rabbits. He was not going to leave Frodo alone asleep even for a few minutes. 'Now, Gollum,' he said, 'I've another job for you. Go and fill these pans with water, and bring 'em back! '

'Sméagol will fetch water, yes,' said Gollum. 'But what does the hobbit want all that water for? He has drunk, he has washed.' 'Never you mind,' said Sam. `If you can't guess, you'll soon find out. And the sooner you fetch the water, the sooner you'll learn. Don't you damage one of my pans, or I'll carve you into mincemeat.'

So now Sam has:

Decided of his own accord that he has a problem and that he wants to actively solve it

Arrived at a solution to the problem without any outside help or suggestions

Commanded Gollum to go hunt

Lovingly watched Frodo sleep

Collected rabbits after they were provided and begun skinning them

Assigned Gollum to fill his cook-pans

Gollum leaves to do this new errand and Sam starts building a cook fire.

He was just stooping over his fire, shielding it and building it up with heavier wood, when Gollum returned, carrying the pans carefully and grumbling to himself. He set the pans down, and then suddenly saw what Sam was doing. He gave a thin hissing shriek, and seemed to be both frightened and angry. 'Ach! Sss -- no!' he cried. 'No! Silly hobbits, foolish, yes foolish! They mustn't do it!' 'Mustn't do what?' asked Sam in surprise. 'Not make the nassty red tongues,' hissed Gollum. `Fire, fire! It's dangerous, yes it is. It burns, it kills. And it will bring enemies, yes it will.'

Sam has just been given a completely sane and rational reason why a fire is a bad idea (they are in a dangerous area and can't risk attention!) (as well as a reason that is less pertinent- it looks like Gollum is afraid of fire, and he may have sensible reasons to be afraid of fire because it is dangerous, but this is not Sam's problem)

Sam addresses the 'it will bring enemies' thing

'I don't think so,' said Sam. `Don't see why it should, if you don't put wet stuff on it and make a smother. But if it does, it does. I'm going to risk it, anyhow. I'm going to stew these coneys.'

And Sam is like, nah.

Now Gollum gets upset that he's 'ruining good meat' by cooking it

Now Sam de-escalates

Now, now! ' said Sam. 'Each to his own fashion. Our bread chokes you, and raw coney chokes me. If you give me a coney, the coney's mine, see, to cook, if I have a mind. And I have. You needn't watch me. Go and catch another and eat it as you fancy -- somewhere private and out o' my sight. Then you won't see the fire, and I shan't see you, and we'll both be the happier. [He still managed to slip in a 'get out of my sight'] I'll see the fire don't smoke, if that's any comfort to you.'

In the movie he just insults the quality of the meat:

SAM What's to ruin? There's hardly any meat on 'em.

...which I suppose is fair in this alternate universe where the rabbits were just dumped in his lap, unwanted.

Then in the movie they skip to the taters conversation, but in the book, there's more!

Back to the book:

Gollum withdrew grumbling, and crawled into the fern. Sam busied himself with his pans. 'What a hobbit needs with coney,' he said to himself, 'is some herbs and roots, especially taters -- not to mention bread. Herbs we can manage, seemingly.' 'Gollum!' he called softly. 'Third time pays for all. I want some herbs.'

Gollum says no.

'Sméagol'll get into real true hot water, when this water boils, if he don't do as he's asked,' growled Sam. 'Sam'll put his head in it, yes precious. And I'd make him look for turnips and carrots, and taters too, if it was the time o' the year. I'll bet there's all sorts of good things running wild in this country. I'd give a lot for half a dozen taters.'

Now Gollum asks what taters are, gets a cryptic answer, and is offered a kind of food he has just expressed he does not want (cooked food) and again ordered to fetch herbs. Gollum declines.

'You couldn't say no to that.' 'Yes, yes we could. Spoiling nice fish, scorching it. Give me fish now, and keep nassty chips!' 'Oh you're hopeless,' said Sam. 'Go to sleep!'

The movie finally has some of the same words in almost the same place:

SAM PO-TAY-TOES! Boil 'em. Mash 'em. Stick 'em in a stew. Lovely big golden chips with a nice piece of fried fish…. SM�AGOL [i'm not fixing it blah] [Sticks out his tongue in disgust] Pbbbttt!! [so now he's just devolved into making fart noises] SAM Even you couldn't say no to that. [He takes a sip of the stew] SM�AGOL Oh yes we could! Spoil nice fish... [scrambles up close to Sam] Give it to usss rrraw... and wrrriggling! [That line is not in the book. every time i see it quoted i age a year] [Makes sickeningly happy face.] You keep nasty chips. [Hops away] SAM You're hopeless.

The scene here ends in the movie.

In the movie, Sam has:

Watched rabbits be thrown at Frodo

Started cooking them after being all but commanded to eat them

Had some banter with Gollum

Left the scene without eating his stew

Sam is a passive character who is not orchestrating events, but rather reacting to them. A character being passive is not in and of itself a bad thing. I am only pointing it out because it is different from the book and a big change to this specific character (wanted to mention that because some people really don't like passive characters in general, I think they have a place. Frodo is rather passive in this scene but he obviously has a purpose.)

...In the book, Sam stews the rabbits for an hour and then eats the stew with Frodo

Frodo yawned and stretched. 'You should have been resting Sam,' he said. 'And lighting a fire was dangerous in these parts.

Wow! Was it? I feel like someone mentioned that earlier.

'Gollum! ' Sam called and whistled softly. 'Come on! Still time to change your mind. There's some left, if you want to try stewed coney.' There was no answer. 'Oh well, I suppose he's gone off to find something for himself. We'll finish it,' said Sam. [...] We don't see eye to eye, and he's not pleased with Sam, O no precious, not pleased at all.'

Whyever not?

To sum, book!Sam has:

Decided of his own accord that he has a problem and that he wants to actively solve it

Decided he's going to assign Gollum to the problem (This also demonstrates Sam's interpersonal intelligence. He notices what Gollum's capable of and understands intuitively how it can be turned to something industrious and useful) (Sam has made some missteps in other areas which are in the next section)

Commanded Gollum to go hunt

Collected rabbits after they were provided (according to his request), and began skinning them

Watched Frodo sleep

Assigned Gollum to fill his cook-pans, specifically because he does not want to leave Gollum and Frodo alone together, which is sensible

Threatened to carve Gollum into mincemeat, while holding a knife

Watched Frodo sleep and reflected on his poor health

Skinned the rabbits and put them in stew

Been told a cook fire is a bad idea and declined to stop what he's doing. A character being told to stop doing something & continuing with it anyway is another way for that character to show agency.

Asked Gollum to fetch herbs and potatoes (was refused)

Foraged a few herbs himself

Eaten lovely stew (while lamenting that there are no onions in it, and no bowls to put it in ;_;)

Offered Gollum stew long after (hours after) Gollum got angry and left

...all because Sam initially decided he wanted to acquire and cook food, and then took every necessary step to make that happen of his own accord.

Sam is an active character with high agency.

He is also showing more care for Frodo here (watching him while asleep and fretting over his health, lamenting that he somehow made rabbit stew from nothing by using his resources (which do here include another character- people are also resources!) but he can't put it in a nice bowl for mr. frodo- there's just a lot more here, which is natural because prose is a more detail-rich medium. Not all of this would have fit in the movie and I'm not saying it should have.

Even allowing for time, however, I do think there would have been a way to collapse this scene to the needed time requirement and still have Sam in charge of it instead of Gollum.

The scene finally ends on:

Then he noticed a thin spiral of blue-grey, smoke, plain to see as it caught the sunlight, rising from a thicket above him. With a shock he realized that this was the smoke from his little cooking-fire, which he had neglected to put out.

Did anyone foresee this?

Gollum

In the movie, Gollum is foisting a gift on Frodo and forcing social interaction that he doesn't want.

In the book, Gollum wants to go away somewhere so he can eat and is pressed into reluctant manual labor instead

Gollum is a little different from the other two characters in that his personality and motivations are also completely different here. (Where as Sam at least still has the same goals of looking after Frodo and making food.)

The scene is in Sam's POV so what Gollum is thinking and feeling has to be inferred from his actions/words/tone, but he's not exactly subtle.

The movie scene starts off with Gollum turning up with rabbits. He dumps them in Frodo's lap. He makes a spectacle of himself. He starts mauling the corpses.

The book scene starts off with Gollum trying to slip away somewhere to eat in private.

That's another thing. Gollum doesn't demonstratively bite into things Gollum always slips away somewhere to eat in private. Earlier:

It was actually not long before Gollum returned; but he came so quietly that they did not hear him till he stood before them. His fingers and face were soiled with black mud. He was still chewing and slavering. [He didn't bring food back on purpose. He's still chewing because he only has six teeth.] What he was chewing, they did not ask or like to think. 'Worms or beetles or something slimy out of holes,' thought Sam. 'Brr! The nasty creature; the poor wretch! ' Gollum said nothing to them, until he had drunk deeply and washed himself in the stream. Then he came up to them, licking his lips. 'Better now,' he said.

(Emphasis added.. Imagine you just recruited a serial killer to your D&D-party-in-real-life and he silently turns up covered in mud and won't talk to you. It looks like he's been eating bugs. He won't speak. he won't tell you what he's eating.)

Back to the scene in question: Gollum's leaving. Sam flags him down and asks him to hunt.

'Hi! Gollum!' said Sam. 'Where are you going? Hunting? Well see here, old noser, you don't like our food, and I'd not be sorry for a change myself. Your new motto's always ready to help. Could you find anything fit for a hungry hobbit? '

He asks in an insulting and confrontational way. ('old noser' + 'Your new motto's always ready to help' reeking of suspicion)

To be clear, I'm not criticizing Sam whatsoever for disliking and being suspicious of the known murderer he's traveling with against his will. but the way he talks to Gollum does have consequences.

'Yes, perhaps, yes,' said Gollum. 'Sméagol always helps, if they asks -- if they asks nicely.'

Gollum is reluctant and asks to be treated politely. I don't find this response disproportionate or unreasonable. Consider what would happen if anyone talked to LOTR-era Bilbo Baggins the way Sam just talked to Gollum. The ash would still be falling from the sky.

Anyway Sam's response is to mimic the way he talks.

'Right!' said Sam. 'I does ask. And if that isn't nice enough, I begs.'

Gollum leaves, and is gone a long time. While he's gone, Sam gazes lovingly at Frodo, and - this is not directly relevant but I wanted to note it:

Gollum returned quietly and peered over Sam's shoulder. Looking at Frodo, he shut his eyes and crawled away without a sound. [Seeing that Sam and Frodo are occupied, Gollum slips away without interrupting, which is also a different vibe from 'assaulting Frodo with rabbits while he's just sitting there.'] Sam came to him a moment later and found him chewing something and muttering to himself

Look! There's a character arc happening in the background [but not in the movies] It will reach fruition at Cirith Ungol [in the books]

Anyway, Gollum is chewing on something so he's clearly taken time out to hunt for himself as well (note for context: He's disastrously underweight and has been complaining of hunger).

On the ground beside him lay two small rabbits, which he was beginning to eye greedily. 'Sméagol always helps,' he said. `He has brought rabbits, nice rabbits. But master has gone to sleep, and perhaps Sam wants to sleep. Doesn't want rabbits now? Sméagol tries to help, but he can't catch things all in a minute.'

Gollum has brought rabbits on command, and he's reluctant to hand them over. This is the direct opposite of bringing rabbits of his own accord out of nowhere and forcing them onto somebody.

'Now, Gollum,' he said, 'I've another job for you. Go and fill these pans with water, and bring 'em back! ' 'Sméagol will fetch water, yes,' said Gollum. 'But what does the hobbit want all that water for? He has drunk, he has washed.' 'Never you mind,' said Sam.

That was a reasonable question, asked politely and prefaced by 'yes I'll do it'. There's no call for a 'never you mind' and there's certainly no call for this:

`If you can't guess, you'll soon find out. And the sooner you fetch the water, the sooner you'll learn. Don't you damage one of my pans, or I'll carve you into mincemeat.'

Gollum does the work and is careful with the pans as requested.

He was just stooping over his fire, shielding it and building it up with heavier wood, when Gollum returned, carrying the pans carefully and grumbling to himself.

He set the pans down, and then suddenly saw what Sam was doing.

Gollum discovers that 'Never you mind' meant 'I am going to do something you find dangerous and terrifying' i'm pretty sure this is what he's seeing in his POV

He gave a thin hissing shriek, and seemed to be both frightened and angry. `Ach! Sss -- no!' he cried.

Gollum gets angry.

At this point in the movie, Gollum has:

Dumped rabbits in Frodo's lap

Told him to eat them

Played with the dead animals in front of Frodo

there's a cut to Sam cooking the rabbits- Gollum makes no comment at all on the safety or feasibility of a fire, but gets right up close to it to peer into the cookpot, so he must not be too scared of it.

In the book, Gollum has:

Tried to slip away, presumably to eat, because he's hungry. Or maybe he just wants alone time! Shelob is not in visiting range. He's not being dastardly. Leave him alone

He's been flagged down to do additional work, and interrupted from whatever he wanted to do

Went off somewhere. Caught two rabbits (with his bare hands, I assume??) Also caught at least one other thing, because he's chewing something when he comes back

Came back with rabbits

Left Sam to his tender moment with Frodo and went off for more alone time

Gently floated the idea that perhaps Sam doesn't want these rabbits anymore, surrendered the rabbits when asked

Agreed to another errand that is probably difficult for him to do, after hunting down at least two rabbits Up to this point Gollum has been called 'old noser', had his speech patterns parroted at him in a mocking way, had a polite question refused, and been told he will be 'carved into mincemeat' if he damages the cooking pans (does Gollum even know what a cooking pan is? When was the last time he's seen one? Was he just handed some foreign object and told 'put water in it and don't break it' 'of course! why?' 'stfu') Gollum has a whole long complicated history that would reasonably make him very prone to difficulties with emotional regulation. Severe trauma and centuries of social isolation are involved.

He only just now gets angry, now that he thinks Sam is going to start a forest fire and summon orcs and the first word out of his mouth is a relatively restrained 'Ach!' a word that doesn't even start with an F!

Gollum says fire is harmful and will draw enemy attention. Sam says essentially 'probably not but if it does that's too bad'.

Another bit of context is that Gollum has been presenting himself as the 'wilderness survival guy' and has obvious pride when he's talking about finding his way through the marsh. Sam isn't just being dismissive of Gollum, he's particularly dismissing something Gollum has real knowledge of and takes pride in that has nothing to do with being a corrupted evildoer.

Then Sam says he's going to cook the food.

'Stew the rabbits!' squealed Gollum in dismay. `Spoil beautiful meat Sméagol saved for you, poor hungry Sméagol! What for? What for, silly hobbit? They are young, they are tender, they are nice. Eat them, eat them!' He clawed at the nearest rabbit, already skinned and lying by the fire.

After all of that, we are at 'They are young, they are tender, they are nice. Eat them, eat them!' In the movie, the scene started with this line, apropros of nothing, and it's just. Yelled at Frodo. It's an invitation.

In the book: The same line is a cry of frustration. This isn't a non sequitur, this is a last straw! Gollum is hungry. He's been chronically hungry for a long time. The rabbits are exactly the kind of thing he likes to eat. They must smell amazing to him because now they're skinned. He had to turn them over to Sam after going to the work of hunting them (he didn't have to do this, he could have just not come back, or pretended he didn't find anything- whether or not his motives are pure, and they probably aren't, he's doing what he promised).

In return: Sam told him to do more work, and then started a fire- which Gollum seems to genuinely think is idiotic and puts his own safety at risk because he's stuck with these hobbits for the time being- Sam won't listen to reason and put it out, and to add insult to injury, that meat he insisted on?

HE'S JUST GOING TO RUIN IT

Imagine you were hungry and you brought someone an oreo (also you had to wander around in the woods and find the oreo and then surprise it from behind and break its neck), and that person just! scraped off the cream filling and replaced it with spray cheese! after that person called you a jerk and set a fire in a trash can! Maybe that person loves spray-cheese oreos! Maybe everyone but you loves them! I think you'd still be frustrated! (If you're the person who loves spray cheese oreos, pretend it's something else.)

On my first reading of the book this is where I got that sinking 'I am feeling a mite sympathetic to the horrible murderer that I know is just going to stay evil and die in the end' feeling. Gollum is being dreadfully annoying, but he's been pushed past his ability to self-regulate. It feels like the dynamic of antagonizing someone until they melt down and then criticizing them for melting down (Sam is not intending to do this, and doesn't even seem to notice that's what's happened, but the result is the same.)

Sam smooths things over and lets Gollum leave! until

Until

'Gollum!' he called softly. 'Third time pays for all. I want some herbs.' Gollum's head peeped out of the fern, but his looks were neither helpful nor friendly.

WHYEVER NOT?

'A few bay-leaves, some thyme and sage, will do -- before the water boils,' said Sam. 'No! ' said Gollum. `Sméagol is not pleased. And Sméagol doesn't like smelly leaves. He doesn't eat grasses or roots, no precious, not till he's starving or very sick, poor Sméagol.'

(Gollum was retching at the scent of flowers earlier. He may be annoyingly dramatic but I have no cause to doubt that they really did make him feel ill)

(also, I'm out in the weeds speculating now, but I just noticed Gollum is starting to spout off talking about himself and how he feels after Sam pooh-poohed his fretting about the fire, and it feels like a bid for recognition, did you notice Sam has not been calling him Sméagol? Sam isn't using his real name.)

The response:

'Sméagol'll get into real true hot water, when this water boils, if he don't do as he's asked,' growled Sam.

Gollum is here under duress and is cooperating with a quest that is in every way opposed to his personal interests and survival.

'Sméagol won't go, O no precious, not this time,' hissed Gollum. 'He's frightened, and he's very tired, and this hobbit's not nice, not nice at all. Sméagol won't grub for roots and carrotses and -- taters. What's taters, precious, eh, what's taters?

He hasn't had any rest because he was immediately sent off to hunt. I'll bet he is tired

Gollum is still willing to stop being angry because he saw a shiny new word, let's see how this goes

`Po-ta-toes,' said Sam. 'The Gaffer's delight, and rare good ballast for an empty belly. But you won't find any, so you needn't look. But be good Sméagol and fetch me the herbs, and I'll think better of you

Sam gives a cryptic answer and demands more work. 'I'll think better of you?' Lies! Gollum just did two errands and received nothing but more verbal abuse. Sam did not even thank him. This was where on my first reading I was saying to myself 'oh no Sam is mishandling this really badly and doesn't even notice'

I'll cook you some taters one of these days. I will: fried fish and chips served by S. Gamgee. You couldn't say no to that.' 'Yes, yes we could. Spoiling nice fish, scorching it. Give me fish now, and keep nassty chips! ' 'Oh you're hopeless,' said Sam. 'Go to sleep!'

Gollum doesn't understand what chips are. He just said he doesn't like plants or cooked food. He's tired and hungry and has been ordered around all day. He did everything asked up to now and in return he gets called hopeless.

Sméagol willingly, nonconfrontationally, successfully did two out of the three tasks, and when he refuses a third task after being demeaned and dismissed, he's called hopeless.

So Gollum leaves. That's the end of his involvement in this scene. he didn't hit anyone, bite anyone, or call Sam anything worse than 'not nice', 'silly' and 'foolish' (He does not call Sam a 'stupid fat hobbit', that appears to be a movie invention as well)

In the movies, he threw dead animals at frodo and some of this dialog was said without any of the context. haha funni.

The takeaways from the book version are that Gollum can understand and follow verbal commands and do errands (this is important because Gollum needs to be somewhat sane and lucid in order to satisfyingly be held accountable for his crimes), will cooperate when asked, communicates poorly, has trouble controlling his temper, and may at any time be in physical distress and not show it. (He doesn't give outward signs of fatigue.)

The takeaways from the movie version seem to be that Gollum is hyperactive, doesn't understand facial expressions, and finds cooking to be an alien custom. No one tried to ask him to do anything, so I have no idea whether he can understand requests and do tasks or not. May or may not be lucid.

Can we at least agree that Sam saying 'You're hopeless' after this:

Give it to usss rrraw… and wrrriggling! [Makes sickeningly happy face.]

is a different vibe from Sam saying 'You're hopeless' after hearing this?

'[Sméagol]'s frightened, and he's very tired, and this hobbit's not nice, not nice at all.'

Summary

Why is this scene the opposite?

Frodo has gone from being asleep but serving as an emotional anchor (both Sam and Gollum look at him and have some kind of emotional revelation, although the latter has his in private and we don't ever know what it is, the cad) to being awake but doing nothing and leaving. (He does go and find Faramir when the scene ends, but at that point, we are moving on to the next scene. so I don't count it.) Frodo has gone from affecting events while asleep to having no effect while awake

Sam has gone from being in charge of what's happening to passively reacting to a chaos gremlin

Gollum has gone from following orders until he can't take it anymore and suffering to being a chaos gremlin who does whatever he wants and seemingly having a good time? he's dancing around

The stew goes from eaten to uneaten

The overall purpose of the original scene appears to have been mainly to establish character and relationship dynamics. The movie scene... is doing the same, I suppose, but it's so brief and stripped of context that it almost feels like an homage more than a real scene, like it's there because they couldn't get away with entirely cutting it. And as every character is behaving contrary to what they used to in one form or another, the overall effect is:

Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Ask me about the waterfall scene next

#long post #never ask me about the waterfall scene

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gnomebinary · 3 days

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This is my protocol bingo! (Thank you as always osric.com).

Lena is just doing her evil job - No thoughts, no morals, no alligence. Girlboss.

Nobody ever finds out Jmart's real names - I just think that would be tragic, and fit in with what RQ have been saying about this not being too attached to Archives.

Redemption arc - There was a notable lack of these in Archives even though forgiveness and making a conscious effort to behave morally were important themes in the later seasons. I'm ready for Mr Bonzo to have Kylo Ren's exact redemption arc where he's redeemed mostly through kissing. I don't even care who he kisses.

Froyo trip - It's pretty clear that we're being told that this is Somewhere Else through things like the Archives staff having tea and the OIAR staff having coffee. The s1 Archives gang iconically got icecream, so I'm gunning for a froyo trip, and a Gwen monologue about preservatives.

Colin dies first - He's just so killable. Plus, Celia can't die until they do her reveal and they'll probably want to build up to it, Sam can't die because he's the driving force behind investigation into Magnus, Alice can't die because she kinda makes the whole show, Gwen can't die because she's mid-arc and it is of the type that if left unfinished it would be anticlimactic not tragic, and Lena can't die because the impact would be pretty low.

Nostalgic PC games - I LOVE that RQ appears to be into old tech. I want to see Chester and Norris play Catz 5. Lowfi retro charm.

Dyhard - I go back and forth on this one, it feels too obvious what with the hot drinks imagery workplace annoyances to lovers stuff, but at the same time it does Just Make Sense.

Somebody becomes disabled - In Archives people were injured a lot, but none of that amounted to a long-term physical disability, except for Melanie's blindness. Feels like something to do in Protocol.

Police brutality - Feels like a theme that Jonny still has more to say about, and an incredibly easy one to weave into this kind of story.

Alice is hiding something - I actually think she isn't but y'all are saying it.

Alice naming stuff has consequences - She does it so much and Colin warned her off it, clearly seeming concerned but not explaining why, I think it will have unforeseen and damaging consequences.

Someone has a pet - In Archives, especially in the earlier seasons, everyone was notably unattached. Martin has a mum to take care of, but nobody has partners or children. I think this was partly because it made them easier to manipulate, and partly because it meant that tragedy could be dialled up: Sasha dying was sad, but not as gutwrenching as Daisy dying because Daisy's relationships were more fleshed out because it was later in the series. We're already bucking that trend with Celia's son, so I think we might see a pet too. Also, the pet will probably die.

Alice dies in the last season - Alice is very killable but she's also the heart and soul of the character relationships, so I think they will kill her but they'll wait to do it, and then do it mid-final season as an OOH THEY WENT THERE turning point, like how Tim dying brought in a new, darker era for Archives.

Conclusion that love isn't what makes you human - At London Comicon in October, Alex or Jonny (I forget) said that if Archives was about what makes you a monster, Protocol is about what makes you human. I think it's kinda trite if love is the answer, and I think the conclusion re love will be that monsters can love, because that's cooler. Hell yeah romantic monsterfucking.

Celia evil - I LOVE that we're seeing another Welsh person, but she doesn't sit well with me.

Agnes returns but we don't hear her speak - The tree on the other side of the rift is still alive, and if that universe was this one then that means that Agnes may still be alive. Jonny and Alex have said that they regret not doing more with Agnes, and I don't think they'll miss out on the opportunity to use her again. However, I think the fact that she doesn't speak is central to her tragic character and role as Jon's character foil, and I don't think they'll change that. I actually posted a tiktok about this.

Scene on London public transport - We're already seeing our gang at the pub and on dates, I think we're going to get some tube content.

Jmart fate worse than death - They're going to have us WISHING that they died in mag200.

Fears never treated as separate - I just think we're over that.

Breakup - They're getting the character relationships in early, so I'm predicting an onscreen breakup, because that's one of the few ways that we didn't see relationships between characters going bad in Archives.

Gerry's life gets ruined again - I'm sorry guys but I don't think they're going to let him have peace. He's going to get dragged into the OIAR situation and he's going to suffer.

Alice's brother lives - People are already noting similarities between Alice and Tim, I think that it'll be essentially the same character beat again if her brother dies. Adapt, improvise, overcome, RQ.

Another Michael - Just another character called Michael, unrelated to the four existing Michaels. I wasn't going to put this because Jonny is very aware of the four Michael problem, but this man plagurised his own full legal Christian name, so anything is possible.

Jack is Agnes' Jack - I think it's cool if we all think about how there was actually a massive age gap between Agnes and Jack because she didn't seem to age past her twenties, so he was absolutely a child when she was an adult. Not that I want to have Discourse or anything, that relationship was hecked up and complex in plenty of other ways, just because it's interesting.

Onscreen kiss - They said they wouldn't do it during Archives and then they did and it wasn't that gross, so I'm ready to see it happening again. They might have a relationship between allosexuals this time, I don't think they're going as far as onscreen fucking, but I'm game to be surprised. Insert joke about reusing the whimpering noises from Archives here.

#the magnus protocol #tmp #tmp spoilers #the magnus archives #tma podcast #tma #dyhard #colin becher #alice dyer #samama khalid #gwendolyn bouchard #lena kelley #celia ripley #tmagp

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zahri-melitor · 2 days

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A Quick, Somewhat Joking Discussion of 'the Best Ways To Get Into Comics' (TM)

Be 10-14 years old, pick up a random comic at the library/bookshop/someone's collection and become obsessed. This is proven the best method and the level of confusion engendered by it is actually more useful long term than any other method. (At that age you are going to fall deeply in love with random texts that are never going to quite have the depth your brain imparts on them)

Mention to a friend who does like comics that you want to 'get into comics' and said friend, knowing your preferred types of tv shows and books, your favourite characters and having asked what you're hoping to read, carefully picks out something that is objectively a good starter comic that fits your tastes and makes your brain go brrrr. (god tier level, that friend is a keeper, also congratulations on the fact you are never going to replicate the feel of reading that first comic again)

Lurk or hang out in some fandom space where you are regularly exposed to discussions of comics that includes actual panels and storylines of recent comics, and work out from that what seems to have a vibe you like, so you go and pick up that run (solid option, being able to taste various writers and styles of run before diving in gives you a better chance of choosing a run that hooks you, I was introduced to so many runs via scans_daily in this way back in the day).

Wander into a library or comic shop or bookshop that has a decent number of comics with the idea that you want to look into reading these, and then flip through a bunch of trades in what you think you want to read before something catches your eye and you pick that up (less likely to be a definite hook, but has the benefit of being far more likely than any option listed further below to involve newbie-friendly art. And newbie-friendly art is something that isn't discussed enough in terms of recommendations but is one of the biggest reasons people just getting into comics bounce off the format).

Only here will I mention recommended character reading guides. In my experience they're useful in certain contexts, particularly for characters who have hard-to-trace chronologies, for finding out what runs that person considers essential to the character, for untangling the order of comics in particularly confusing large events, and for narrowing down and directing people where there's a big chunk of material to read about a character. My objection is they tend to be treated like gospel by newbies, they frequently don't consider whether the artwork is going to make their eyes burn, quite often they are more focused on the 'best' stories for a character rather than the 'most accessible stories' for that character (these are two separate concepts!) and they tend to sell a narrative of 'don't read X' where X is quite often a comic which people don't enjoy but where an important event happens or is simply an older comic that's particularly affected by community expectations and standards having changed since it was written.

You know that '75 Years of Comics' series of prestige hardbacks that DC did? They're great to hand to a newbie looking to get into a specific character or mantle, because it's got stand alone stories that are highly regarded or solidly introductory about that character from each era, they can page through it and work out what version makes their brain happy, and then follow up on those leads into more reading. (Expensive but perfect for libraries)

The first trade of a recent run for the character in question by the current or second most recent writer. Most runs when they change lead writers are going to have some level of onboarding simply because a lot of people DO switch what they're reading depending on what team is on the book, and by going with a current run you manage to sidestep a lot of the 'this feels weird and old' problems.

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the-witchhunter · 1 day

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So a lot of what I’m about to say has to do with my preference for character driven storytelling and is pretty much just me putting down my thoughts. Feel free to leave your thoughts on this but don’t take this too seriously

I think a lot of the side characters from Danny Phantom are hard to incorporate into a DP x DC crossover, especially on their own

Because most of them are pretty normal teenagers and are harder to fit into a superhero story. They tend to be somewhat flat and their interesting traits tend to be how the relate to Danny or each other

Like, I’m not inherently interested in Paulina just being in DC because she’s a pretty shallow popular girl stereotype. There’s not a lot to her that makes her an interesting addition on her own to the setting, which is probably why a lot of people default to essentially make being from amity Park a superpower. I don’t think it adds a lot personally, but that’s a completely different rant

Dash being in DC on his own isn’t that interesting because he’s the archetype of a jock and a bully. So to compensate you see people make him insanely competent like the rest of Amity Park, or actually give him a superpower.

But the thing is, their actual character gets neglected to make that happen, which is kind of disappointing

I just think it would be nice to see who they are as a person matter more. Paulina, spoiled former popular girl now living in the real world on her own for the first time? Coming to terms with her popularity no longer mattering? Or chasing that high by trying to get famous because she needs that external validation

Dash, jock and former bully. He’s living a life where the fact he played high school football doesn’t matter, he doesn’t get the specialized treatment that it used to give him. Or he’s playing at a higher level and where he was really good before he now is dealing with the fact that everyone else is just as talented. He’s no longer THE star quarterback. Or he’s unpacking his baggage regarding his former bullying. Internalized homophobia and coming to terms with his own sexuality? Actively trying to change for the better? Seeing his old behaviors in others and trying to do the right thing?

I just think who they are should impact the story if they’re involved. If you could change the name and I wouldn’t be able to tell who it is, then why should it be this character? What about the character makes them different in this role than inserting any other character? How does who they are affect their situation for better or for worse?

Let’s take an example: Paulina becoming a reporter in metropolis. Regardless of how good she might be at the job, what character traits does she have that might affect how she does. Well, first, she was popular, that’s her big thing. She knows how to interact with people, make them like her when it suits her interests. This probably means she turns on the charm when doing interviews but is maybe a little bitchy the rest of the time. Based on her personality in the show she would probably gravitate to the society pages, wanting to cover stories involving the rich and famous, galas and all that.

See, in this example, she can still be good at her job but her character traits affect how she does things. She’s a more complicated character, and she might not handle things the same way Lois Lane does, but she can still use her abilities to get the job done through charm and manipulation. This could also lead to conflict because she can be rude to people she doesn’t need anything from, which if she does that to the wrong person, putting on the charm and batting her eyes at them isn’t going to work

Again this is largely based on my preference for character based storytelling. Characters and who they are matter and are what drives the plot. This is in contrast to plot based storytelling which is events happen to the character without their thoughts and decisions impacting the story. Plot based storytelling is an older style which you see a lot in old legends and fairytales, where things just kind of happen to the character. It’s not inherently better or worse but modern taste overall leans more towards character driven stories

#dp x dc #dpxdc #ramble #had some thoughts #idk what do you guys think?

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astronomical-bagel · 1 day

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yo mutual i love ur tags fr because like u took the words right of my mouth i was so baffled how ppl would side with one more than the other because the autism pvp felt so real to me that i related to Both of them rlly a lot like. So much so it has cemented itself as rlly one of my fave scenes ever because it was a Step up for growth like that fight made them both better people . and it makes me mad ppl belittle toshiros experiences and like ignore his autism for the sake of pitting two bad bitches against each other Good Lord. The Nuance. There is Nuance. and ppl who ignore it just feels so personal to me as an autistic asian person who's been told that there's no way they're not "normal" like ive not been masking and not even like That well either.

Toshiro to me is like a similar vibe of Autism to Mob aka Shigeo Kageyama MP100 where he represses so much of his true feelings and opinions and emotions that he will just blow up one day (validly!!!) !!! like. let him be autistic in peace. not everything has to be a moral failure and not everything has to revolve around Laios just because hes the main character of Dunmeshi. Like they were both so relatable it hurts me...

not me spelling empathized as emphasized lmao

but yeah anyways I really interpret the shuro and laios conflict as just two autistic people who just don’t mesh naturally? At the very least, it’s a complication between two people with very different cultures.

Both laios and toshiro are people who don’t exactly fit in. On shuro’s side, the source of his ‘otherness’ is a little redirected (is that the word?) because his status and nationality already set him apart on the island, but even back home he was reserved and didn’t socialize well. He struggles to connect with others and has a hard time being sincere!!! the argument between him and laios isn’t an evil neurotypical vs blorbo autistic, it’s conflict-avoidant autistic vs social cue blind autistic!

There isn’t really a right or wrong side here, Shuro tried communicating in the way he knew how, but he and laios just simply don’t understand each other’s languages. Their fight is a reset for the both of them; now they each know a vital fact about each other! Laios knows that Shuro has a hard time verbalizing discomfort, and shuro now knows that Laios needs to be told things to understand them. Now they can both find a middle ground and properly compromise between their two opposites.

and it’s important to note that if laios did know he was making shuro uncomfortable, he would stop as best as he knew how, all the way. This guy takes boundaries seriously, as long as there are clear lines to what those boundaries are. And he’s attentive to other’s needs! (See: him and chilchucks friendship. They understand each other very well, I could write a whole meta on it)

Now that he and shuro are seeing eye to eye, their friendship can now progress in a healthier fashion! This fight isn’t the end of the world. (Honestly having a fist fight is like third base to me but we won’t speak of that) Toshiro isn’t evil, he’s just a really cool foil to Laios, and their disagreement serves to establish important parts of their characters and to progress both their character arcs 👍

#Also YESSS he is so similar to mob psycho. Repressing until you can’t anymore and have to beat someone up 😎✌️#Maintagging this bc I’m tired of the hate. Drown em out #toshiro nakamoto #laios touden #astronomically random #astronomical asks

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load-theloading-artist · 1 day

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*Kicks Down Door*

it's me, ya boi, Load.

And I have some things to say.

But i want to mention @-thevyladsafespace for their post;

^^^ this one ^^^

Where they asked what the inspiration(s) was for the boys' outfits. Having a few guesses of their outfits being inspired by chinese/japanese fashion or dnd/generic fantasy style of fashion.

And, in my opinion, yes!

But... also no.

Lemme explain, But first;

I want to talk about their Daemos outfits. And my thoughts/opinions on the...

Starting with their Daemos Outfits;

And starting with

Noi;

who i actually i think his outfit fits Japanese Inspiration the most!

(Before i explain, i want to say i am not from japan or have visited, nor am i an expert, but i have watched MANY videos about japanese culture from LetsaskShogo on youtube! I highly recommend checking him out. He goes into everything about japan, its history, its culture, its fashion, Noh thearte, tea ceremonies, everything!) (Japanese culture is a special interest of mine, ahah)

His left side of his shirt is over his right side, which japanese traditional kimono style of clothing MUST have! (Wearing the left over right is a MUST in their culture, for only the dead or non-living wear the RIGHT side over the LEFT. It therefore symbolizes death.)

The closest reference for his shirt i can find rn is this one; (which if i remember right are called dogi!)

Additionally,

Useing this image as reference;

His pants are very similar to a style/type of Hakama pants (unfortunately, i have forgotten the name of them. I think a name for them was Karusan, but i may be wrong!!)

Image reference of the pants im talking about;

(They were worn by 'samurai' or otherwise japanese soldiers as a better alternative to hakama due to the pants better ease of movement and more suitability armor.)

Other than that though, he doesn't wear anything else that is SIMILAR to traditional japanese fashion.

Onto my opinions and thoughts about his design;

I love Noi's design the most. He is the most well designed out of the boys'. If i were to change his design, i would keep most of it.

He's an 8/10 for me.

Deducted points because WHY? WHY WITH HIS ARM. Omg. no... No. No!! his design literally would've been perfectly okay IF HIS ARM. WASNT-

give him his sleeve back pls... why was it taken away? What crimes did it commit?? Was color contrast against the armor wanted so badly ThEy TOOK AWAY HIS SLEEVE?? That's worse!! That's worse than just leaving his sleeve alone 😭😭😭

In fact, it would look BETTER if the sleeve was kept unyoinked!!

I apologize for how harsh i may sound. But i can't. I just can't.

Moving onto

Pierce;

My second favorite character~

I believe he is the second closest to having most Japanese inspiration.

With his utterly blue coat, that is the main point of interest in his design... that does look a lot like a kimono.

But i sure hope it isn't because the way he's wearing it makes me want to go

"DISHONER ON YOU!! DISHONOR ON YOUR COW!!"

- (mulan/mushu reference)

And that what he SHOULD be wearing would be similar to a Haori-jacket

Which what it looks like;

(The Haori is a traditional japanese hip or thigh length jacket that is typically worn over a kimono.)

His coat is, however, a Kimono's length. (Maybe even a little longer, actually, kimonos typically only reach the ankles. But the way he wears whatever he wears, could make it look longer than it should be or is.)

Additionally his sleeves and;

The absolute abomination his outfits back is. What the genuine *🐬 noise* happened.

The way his the back of the outfit is, it means that if he wears the unworn sleeve, the back will be SO DROOPED!! It would not be funny or sexy 😔

Here is a reference for how a kimono (though with longer/larger sleeves) with one sleeve not being worn would look;

(i am so sorry, but idk who the artist is and can not find them. Googling bee-com led to (i think) a bitcoin website, and katahada nugi was just for information for samurai armor.) (If anyone knows it would be very appreciated!)

*sigh*

Moving onto my thoughts and opinions on Pierce's design;

Pierce's deisgn is... rather simple. Other than the pattern on his pants.

... tbh i dont really know what else to say. It's simple, basic, the coat, arm-brace, and patten on his pants are the only points of interest in his design. (Other than his tattoo but we'll talk about it later.)

I'd rate him 3/10.

There's... Something. Theres a something... But it's not executed well (or at all) in his design. His (disaster of a coat that deducted points) coat and that something, is his saving grace of a few points.

And i WANT TO CONTINUE THIS in the same post and I PROMISE YOU, i am going somewhere i do i do i just,

In order to continue i NEED the photo space, what do i mean? i mean THERES A PHOTO LIMIT OF 10 ON POSTS!!! TUMBLR WHY 10??? 10??? 10 PHOTOS ONLY???

***insert image of a depressed man bent over in a blue school chair meme***

But i hope you stay tuned and to see you in part 2!! (And most likely part 3... oh boy. Im so sorry)

Again, i promise im going somewhere with this i just need time to cook and get the foundations down first. AND THE PHOTO SPAc-

#my inner demons aphmau #aphmau my inner demons #shush load #my inner demons #Google: How to fight Tumblrs post image limit #*sobs*#see you in part 2 and im so sorry #theres alot of things i haven't mentioned that I'll mention in part 2!! i promise.#if there seems to be missing piunts about these two designed i didn't mention its because im waiting til i talk about all 5 of the Boys #daemos outfits #give me time to cook plsplsplsplspls

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krawlernyannyan · 1 day

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IT'S ALL ABOUT ENA (ft. SUNDAY WAS THE BAD GUY ALL ALONG)

After the v2.2 trailer I'm really starting to think the events going on in Penacony are somehow deeply tied to Ena the Order. At first I thought all the Order motifs (i.e. the eye symbol of Order being all over) around Penacony were just cool worldbuilding details about how the Harmony must've adopted the Order's symbology on top of THEIR Path, but now...

Like the thing that's really tipping me off here is all the goddamn puppets. The final boss of which is religiously-themed.

This is an insane idea but what if everything that's been going on in Penacony has been the result of somebody trying to re-establish contact with Ena and/or the Path of Order? One of the major discoveries we made in v2.1 was that something's wrong with the Harmony, so what if the Harmony on Penacony is being corrupted in such a way that it aligns more with the Order? It's not even hard to see how.

The Harmony should be about cooperation, resolving differences, mutual understanding, but on Penacony that's not remotely the case. The Family's main tactic to keep the peace has been robbing people of their memories and emotions - keeping them in control not necessarily so people can heal, but to keep them in line and serve their designated functions. The Family on Penacony has already been debasing its population into obedient puppets, doing everything possible to maintain the facade they've created.

There's also the fact that Penacony used to be a prison, a setting that embodies the kind of control and forcible penance that Order represents. Xipe's attention was drawn to it because its prisoners began uniting together in the dreamscape but what happens if Penacony reverts back to a prison?

There's a lot of things that click neatly into place with one extra assumption, that the person ultimately behind this distortion is the most Order-adjacent character in the Penacony cast: Sunday.

He's the most outwardly religious person on Penacony in terms of his faith and he's straight-up covered in the Order's eye symbol, even having them on his halo, plus his major character trait is being a control freak. Circumstantially, he fits.

At this point it's been hammered in that there's a traitor in The Family - as the person in charge of the Family (only answering to the unseen Dreammaster) he's literally pulling the strings on Penacony and in the best position to manipulate its environment, so him being the literal puppetmaster behind everything would be a neat turn of phrase.

While he's outwardly devout to Xipe it could be the case that his appeals are specifically to those aspects of Xipe that THEY absorbed from Ena.

Sunday's ultimate goal is to create a truly perfect paradise in Penacony, but his idea of that could be reliant on the complete control of its population to stop all conflict, hence why he's going to such lengths to get Ena's influence.

It's been stated that a lot of the Dreamscape exists thanks to blessings from Xipe the Harmony, leading to its relative safety, but if the Harmony starts getting corrupted and weakened, then that would weaken those effects and that could be why the deeper dreamscape is starting to flood into Penacony. (This would be an unintentional side-effect of trying to bring about Order, or at least one Sunday thinks the influence of the Order could resolve in its own way.)

Sunday's been putting more resources into finding the serial killer than he is into the Charmony Festival, upsetting other Family members. If he's the one behind everything, he should already have a plan in mind for the Charmony Festival and so it's not a concern to him but the serial murders act as a chaotic element upsetting his attempted Order so stopping them and restoring Order is his higher priority.

On the subject of the serial murders: one detail we got in v2.1 is that the victims seem to be entirely random with no correlations or similarities between them. It could be that we just don't know the underlying reason but what if it is random? Intentionally random because doing it like that means there's no order to them. Something chaotic to disrupt the mastermind's plans to re-align Penacony into the Order. If they're Enigmata-themed like Gallagher, the random killings serve the double-purpose of obfuscating their true intent by making people try to find reason where there isn't any.

(I want to emphasize here that Sunday wasn't behind Robin's murder. This idea only works if he and the killer are on opposing sides, plus when he confronts Gallagher about her death I believe he's genuinely upset about it. Her investigation into the Harmony on Penacony is probably why she was targeted but I still believe Sunday would've tried other ways of getting her onto his side if she found out.)

Now, Robin did presume he was innocent, but we can excuse that on the basis that it's unlikely she would assume her own brother had ulterior motives, and his "death" at the end of v2.1 could simply be a narrative red herring to make us think he's only a victim in all this.

The last point I want to make here: the main event of the Charmony Festival is supposed to be Xipe's incarnation descending (in this case Dominicus, who was referenced in v2.1). If someone is actively trying to tilt Penacony away from Harmony and towards Order, then by the time the Charmony Festival actually arrives it might be not be Xipe's incarnation we see descend, but instead an incarnation of Ena. Hell, we might have actually seen that exact situation happening in one of The Great Septimus' attacks:

#EZ: HSR #HSR #Honkai Star Rail #HSR Ena #HSR Sunday #HSR Specposting #fun fact: did you know septimus' third phase renames itself to “Embryo of Philosophy”?#just translate the name on it in the livestream #smth smth trying to rebirth Ena

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hostilemuppet · 1 day

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the pinterest girlies agree w you btw citing a lot of the same examples as tumblr (mangle, chara/frisk/kris, cookie run)

the fact its still my flaky pfp is so fitting considering thats the character i was thinking about the most

#ask #i recently found a bunch of my old art on that site too!#emphasis on 'old'.#wish it was more of the good shit ykwim :///

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gotyouanyway · 2 days

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time lord ocs info post

ok this is a LOT of info and doesn't even cover it entirely but here's the main details about my little trio of time lord ocs :)

some of the canon details might be a little off - i haven't listened to all of gallifrey: time war yet and i'm pretty sure i nudged some facts around to make everything fit but don't worry about it <3

names:

caldinsedravin (caldin) 3rd regeneration (f, m, m) - ex cia agent - prydonian

hollustallamanta (hollus) 1st regeneration (f) - ex guardsman - prydonian

kilicoversonterast (kilic, kilico to friends and family) 2nd regeneration (m, ?) - genetic engineer - arcalian

story:

academy

- become best friends through constantly being put in weird situations together

- eventually they become known for being an inseparable trio, nicknamed gallifreyan equivalent of “XYZ” as a group like cartesian coordinates. caldin is x, hollus is y, kilic is z. they hate it but privately consider themselves lucky it wasn’t something more mean

- graduated a few years before the civil war

pre/early time war

- caldin went into the cia, hollus into the chancellery guard, kilic became a teacher at the academy

- hollus and caldin got together romantically toward the end of their academy days, slowly get more serious over the years after they graduate

- they all have individual adventures for a bit (caldin regenerates) but all stay friends

- time war starts

- kilic is drafted into project revenant, gets obsessed with it and starts experimenting on himself

- when the chancellery guard is dissolved, hollus wants to run rather than be forced into the idu

- eventually she convinces caldin to go with her

- caldin wants to bring kilic with them, so they go to get him but he’s not having it at all

- they fight badly. caldin pulls a staser and goes to shoot kilic. at the same time, kilic grabs the staser and caldin’s arm, causing the blast to go through them both and intensify/kick back. they’re both badly hurt and regenerate

- kilic regenerates into the same body because of their experimentation, but it's messed up

house era

- hollus takes caldin and runs. they can’t get any kind of off-planet transport so they just flee the capitol

- they go through it for a while. they aren’t important enough to be hunted down, but if they ran into conscription officers or anything they’d be taken back in and punished

- eventually they find a House (unnamed rn) that looks abandoned and they take shelter there. the house is a little senile

- they find 2 children/loomlings/whatever you want to call them. all the adults were conscripted, the older children were taken away, but these two hid (sidan and linara. they’re a whole other story, lots going on there)

- eventually more kids join them from other houses/from the house’s loom. hollus and caldin are kind of stuck taking care of them and it’s dangerous and insane. see my post about broken looms for a little more detail but they need their own post tbh

- kilico stays in the capitol working for rassilon and the war council. the others are always trying to convince them to come join them and they won’t do it. but they can’t just leave them out there to suffer either, so they help with supplies and evading conscription etc. at great personal risk and not always unselfishly. they want hollus and caldin to come back to the capitol where they can keep them safe. they want them to stop being childish and running away. they want them to be back together and happy again. etc.

characters:

caldin

core traits across regenerations: hot headed, deeply emotional, self interested/internally focused (as in, only cares about themselves and loved ones, doesn’t pay much attention to society in general)

caldin 1 (academy & cia)

-bright, sarcastic, playful

-overly ambitious, competitive, arrogant

-loyal to her friends but doesn’t always treat them super great

-recruited by the cia more for her disposition and potential than her skill or intelligence, but did really well in training

-regenerates on her first field mission when an enemy operative attacks her

caldin 2 (pre/early time war - cia)

-serious, compassionate, tense

-still ambitious, but less tolerant of navigating fair competition and existing power structures. makes him frustrated and eventually, unwilling to even play the game once the time war messes everything up

-barks at authority but doesn’t bite

-terrified of regeneration

-regenerates due to staser feedback when shooting kilic

caldin 3 (house era)

-funny (both intentionally and not), cautious, old soul

-no filter, no patience for small annoyances, but more mature and rational than he’s ever been where it really matters

-tired, hurt, scared, but keeping it together and trying to make the best of things

-just wants his loved ones with him and for the fighting to stop and the kids to live (against all odds, he’s pretty good with the kids. not great, but pretty good)

-almost won’t even look at kilic. fight on sight. but needs the help they’re giving and misses them so bad

-extremely grouchy about the house but protects it like a housekeeper

-the struggler

hollus

core traits: analytical, bloodthirsty, insecure in herself as an individual (needs a group to thrive)

(academy)

-meticulous, straightforward, level headed

-really into weapons and weapon maintenance as well as the technical aspects of combat

-bit autistic in general

-not a peacekeeper but gives the impression of being at the eye of the caldin/kilico storm

-challenges authority but in a respectful bargaining way that gets her what she wants

(pre/early time war - chancellery guard)

-the guard becomes her life and she loves it

-quickly promoted to commander

-really discovers her love of combat here and feels good having healthy safe outlets for it (not something she actively recognizes about herself but true)

-everyone’s favourite trainer because she’s honest about extreme violence and knows everything about stasers. plus she’s pretty. the new recruits all fall in love with her

-most of her squadron sided with romana during the civil war they were like blood bonded brothers and all that. except for the ones she lost (either to picking sides or to the virus or to death or whatever) which hurt so bad she never even processed it oops

-loyal to the guard (her friends) over gallifrey so when the guard is disbanded she splits immediately

(house era)

-still the same but colder. getting emotionally closed off. lonely without her comrades

-finds herself wanting to either cling to caldin or push him away depending on the day, but he’s sort of immune to it (doesn’t take it personally, doesn’t overreact to her moods)

-feels guilty about how much she still secretly enjoys combat even though it’s real and dangerous now (same as she felt during the civil war but so much worse because of how many innocents are involved now, + it's worse without the buffer of a dozen other bloodthirsty guardsmen surrounding her at all times)

-struggling to develop some kind of maternal instinct toward the kids but it’s not going great. would still do anything for them but it’s all very weird for her

-also grouchy about the house. would throttle it if she could find out which part was the neck

kilic/kilico

core traits: obsessive, curious, “i can fix everything if i try hard enough”

kilic 1 (academy)

-flippant, brainy, head in the clouds

-cares about studies and about his eventual place in time lord society way more than the others (stuffy old professor in the making, but not yet yknow)

-obsessed with the biology of regeneration. weird about it. gets the group to play eighth man bound

-stumbles into opportunities rather than having any idea of how to navigate time lord society, but it works

-often feels like he and hollus are babysitting caldin. hollus would say she’s not babysitting anyone she’s just watching the show

-a little jealous of his friends, he thinks they’re cooler than him, but doesn’t actually want to be like them. just wants to also be cool (they are all equally cool/uncool in reality he’s just got self esteem issues)

-constantly fighting with caldin but when they’re not fighting they’re inseparable

(pre/early time war)

-genetic engineer specializing in regeneration

-professor at the academy, not really through choice but because that’s the best way to get research grants and assistants

-doesn’t care that much about his students or their education, but does have a soft spot for the much younger ones and the ones who get all excited about regeneration biology like he does

-has sort of a cult following of students who are obsessed with him in a ‘this guy is so insane it’s funny let’s study him’ way but he doesn’t know about it and never finds out

-occasionally gets caught up in petty prof drama and has a good time with it (caldin’s influence)

-when the war starts and the academy is shut down, he’s drafted into project revenant and gets freakishly obsessed with it

-he’s scared of the war and thinks this will keep everyone he loves alive and safe

-personally supervises resurrections and is working on augmenting regeneration

-starts going wild with experiments and does them on himself when willing volunteers run out (he’d never get unethical enough to experiment on anyone against their will, at least)

-regenerates when shot by caldin, but into the same body because of self experimentation

kilic 2 (house era)

-regeneration induced identity issues. same body, same mind, but still regenerated. entire personality shifted to the left, intensified, came back wrong. gave them gender issues too (many such cases)

-still working on proj. rev. after the dalek attack but everything is going crazy everything is broken the vibes are twisted now that the project has moved and half the people on it are dead or resurrected

-questioning loyalty due to everything falling apart and the identity issues

-really trying to have everything both ways. keeps helping caldin and hollus evade capture on purpose, wants to go with them, wants them to come back, wants them captured, wants them safe and happy in their new home

-increasingly wants to run away and go live with them but can’t let go of the project. despite everything they still think revenant is the only way they’re all going to survive the war

-even if they did decide to flee, they don’t think hollus and caldin would take them in and they’re probably right

notes:

i forgot there was a hollis in gallifrey s4 when i made my hollus so we're just ignoring that. that guy wasn't anything anyway

idk what's meant to have become of proj. rev. after the dalek invasion but based on narvin saying they might resurrect his dad later on, i'm assuming they sort of tried to keep it going. idk.

they do have other friends and relationships besides each other. but you know how it is.

i didn't reference it much in the post for clarity but they used their academy nicknames a lot in the academy and occasionally after to tease each other. they also use them when delivering coded messages between the house and the capitol. they are xyz :)

made picrews of them <3

caldin 1, 2, 3