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#phoebe rambles
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Some people need to understand queer coding opens character identities and relationships up to a solid queer interpretation, but that doesn’t equal “this character 100% fits my headcanon and if you disagree you’re a [REDACTED]”
From a literary analysis perspective, as long as your interpretation is reasonably evidence-based it’s valid. As this is fandom, I’d add “sincere” to that since unlike an academic setting we get bad faith actors but that’s it.
So, to have a valid “interpretation” you have to do the work in good faith, and you have to be able point at the text to support your interpretation. If you can’t, or don’t want to, that’s a headcanon, and it’s totally fine.
“But this character is a lesbian she likes a girl!” There’s more to queerness than straight and gay. You could reasonably interpret a girl who likes another girl as plenty of different things:
Lesbian
Bi
Ace/aro and something else
Straight and closeted trans
Straight and lover is closeted trans
And so on.
So when you have an interpretation, someone might tell you, “I think this other thing.” The polite way to handle this if you don’t like it is to say “that’s so cool we can see different things in the ambiguity of art”. Maybe blocking each other if you dislike their interpretation that much.
That’s of course unless you both want a debate to further refine your understanding of the text or just like to argue or whatever. Which is fine! As long as it’s not overly bitter or whatever, it’s fun to discuss.
“So how do I know which interpretation is more canon than another?”
See, that’s the thing, you can’t. Canon is kind of shaky in the first place. The canon is just what’s written that’s recognized as true/correct text, not the way to understand it (and not what the author says is true, some people take Word of God as canon because it allows the following of one concrete interpretation instead of acknowledging multiple, but strictly speaking it is not). You can only interpret the canon.
For example, 4-komas bonuses of serialized manga are usually non-canon because they are jokes and not meant to be taken seriously as a part of the story’s text. That’s what canon actually is for, originally it’s to talk about which books are genuinely part of the Bible and which are to be deemed offshoots that shouldn’t be taken as a Catholic Church-endorsed religious text.
I guess that’s what gets people confused? That there’s no actual truth to imagined worlds, only what happens in the eyes of the beholder when they interact with art?
Because that’s what it means, canon often has nothing to do with who’s “actually a lesbian” short of them saying it directly. An onscreen wedding is said to “make a couple canon” precisely because there’s only so many ways you can interpret a wedding, but all that means is that the text says they’re together at a point in time. One way I can think of having a canon sexuality would be a canonical character sheet, or an omniscient narrator saying so, but everything less is basically an interpretation.
Note that interpretation obviousness can go from “that’s a stretch but I like it”, to “you only need eyes to see it”, they’re both still interpreting. Even a character talking sexuality technically only makes canon that they’re willing to say so, but that’s when critical thinking comes in.
If you hear a character say “I’m a married lesbian” and think “they’re just confused” with no evidence, you look like an idiot. You absolutely can argue which interpretation is more valid or likely by pointing out inconsistencies, stretched evidence, or that one interpretation has a higher volume of evidence/etc. This is how you avoid relativism and “nothing the text says matters” trolls.
Occam’s Razor is another way you might be tempted to try and determine whose thesis is stronger. This technique works through figuring out which interpretation requires the least amount of assumptions (saying something arbitrary is true as a basis) but it doesn’t make anything canon, or more interesting, it’s not a concrete sign of superiority. Just means it has stronger fondations.
However… your interpretation being stronger, more popular, better worded etc. or you thinking someone else’s is immoral, stupid, etc. doesn’t give you license to be a bully, to call people names, to dox them, dig up dirt to make them look worse, and so on and so forth. Thinking you’re right and they’re wrong does not make you above basic respect, politeness, or consequences. You’re not better than everyone else.
As a child, I used to think I was always right because I was logical, and I clearly made logical sense so there was no way for there to be a logical reasoning that arrived at a different conclusion. (Newsflash: Child me was very wrong! Sometimes multiple things can be equally valid! And even if they were not equal, that didn’t give me license to deride people publicly!)
Queer coding is by its nature interpretative. Coding is the author leaving hints about their characters by using a “code”. Some hints, almost everyone in your section of fandom might have the exact same interpretation about. Some hints might be dead obvious. Some hints might leave you overjoyed. Some hints you might ignore because they make you uncomfortable.
Some people will disagree with you about how they interpret the coding, or might even just state that they believe people have a right to interpret the canon however they want, even in ways you don’t like. That is normal. That is not a threat to your interpretation.
Don’t be a petty cunt about it.
Essentially,
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thetarttfuldickhead · 10 months
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Never not delighted by Jamie’s initial glee at seeing Roy’s gift from Phoebe, because he knows – just as Roy’s sister knows – that Roy is absolutely going to hate that shirt but will have no choice but to wear it anyway, because darling niece.
Only then Phoebe starts to describe the thought behind it and
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ooooh
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that’s good, that’s some proper fucking gift giving that
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this girl is a genius.
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send-me-a-puffalope · 1 month
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just watched the new ghostbusters movie with my friend and truly, awkward teenage lesbians will both end and save the world.
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zipstick · 1 month
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i know in my heart that phoebe punched walter peck in the face but i just wish it happened on screen. she deserves to deck him i decided
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cy-fi-theansweris42 · 23 days
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Ghostbusters Frozen Empire spoilers ahead
I've seen some criticism over Phoebe's actions in Frozen Empire, more specifically over the point when she separates her spirit from her body, calling it "a dumb decision", that "she's smarter than that", that it's "out of character for her", and just like.
First of all, remember she's 15??? She's a teenager??
But also I want to argue that it does make sense for her character, especially after everything that happened in Frozen Empire leading up to that moment.
Before we talk about Frozen Empire, we have to remember her story arc from Afterlife.
In Afterlife, Phoebe is uprooted from where they were previously living, and we know she has trouble making friends. Trevor tells her to tell him some of the jokes she's been practicing, her mom tells her to "not be herself" (jokingly/affectionately, but it's still said), and we know that Phoebe struggles to make friends. She struggles to connect with people.
Then she finds out her grandfather was a scientist, like her. He was a Ghostbuster, something that she connects to. She compares herself to Egon and is upset when she finds out her mom didn't tell her that her grandfather was a scientist like her. Then, most importantly here, her mom says that Phoebe "found herself" at the farm.
During Afterlife, Phoebe's story is about finding herself and connecting to who her grandfather was, a scientist, a Ghostbuster.
Flashforward to Frozen Empire.
Now they're in New York, and from what we see even though it's been 3 years since the events of Afterlife, it doesn't seem like Phoebe has really made any new friends in New York, she's still friends with Podcast, but he still lives in Summerville and is only there for the summer. She has her family, but she doesn't have any friends there. Her focus seems to be on being a Ghostbuster because that's where she found herself, that's what she wants to do.
And then it's being taken away from her.
She's suddenly told that she can't be a Ghostbuster because she's too young, and all the while the rest of her family is continuing to go out on busts and leaving her behind. There's things going on, and she's told she can't help, which just throws the fact that the thing she loves, the thing she wants to do, has been taken away from her.
And then, while upset from this, she makes a friend, Melody. It's someone she can talk to, that she seems to enjoy being around. She doesn't know that Melody has an agenda, that Melody is going to use her (not hating on Melody, that's just literally what happens). To her, Melody is a friend and someone she can talk to that distracts her from how another part of her life has been taken away.
Now I don't know if anything has been confirmed, but Phoebe comes off as neurodivergent (honestly I would not be surprised if she was intentionally written that way). One thing when you're neurodivergent and struggle to make friends is like, when someone acts like they want to be around you, to be your friend, you might not catch any signs that something's up.
So with that in mind, remember that Phoebe had no reason to suspect anything was going on with Melody. Before separating her soul from her body, Phoebe just thought she was finding a way to exist on the same plane as her friend. It was a way to just be with her friend for just a couple of minutes. Remember, it was just for two minutes.
So, during a time when Phoebe had something important to her taken away, a part of her identity taken away, she made a connection with someone she trusted and believed to be her friend. Of course she'd trust her, of course she'd try to essentially hang out with her friend for just a couple minutes.
She didn't know what was going to happen next.
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lesbiantahani · 8 months
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misty quigley, yellowjackets / clarice lispector, the stream of life / ruth madievsky, all-night pharmacy / the book thief, mark zusak / “everyone you've loved,” susannah irene
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catboyglover · 3 months
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at the end of the day it’s who you think about when you listen to “true blue” by boygenius
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stars-over-ice-cream · 3 months
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"i want a boyfriend" "i want a girlfriend" well i want know that it's for the better
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apollosgiftofprophecy · 5 months
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ToA Theory 1 - Apollo's Waking Visions
First official theory post, here we go! :D
Alright. So. After rereading The Dark Prophecy, I started wondering about something. In TDP, Apollo experiences waking visions, where he conks out for a bit and has prophetic visions.
I found this interesting because, well...isn't Apollo supposed to be cut off from prophecy? With Python back in control of Delphi?
Because think about it. Python controls Delphi, the root of all earthly prophecy. This would include Dodona, Trophonius, Herophile, and Sibyl - sure, they aren't strictly connected to Delphi, but it's pretty heavily stated that Delphi just straight-up Makes The Future. It's prophecies are The Big Deal and you Should Listen.
Meanwhile the other Oracles seem more guiding and "beware!" instead of "this is how it's gonna be".
(sidenote: found out there are MORE oracles and I wanna know WHERE THEY ARE IN RRVERSE CANON because I want my boy Branchus okay??? Okay. Branchus's oracle was second only to Delphi let's give Apollo's first boyfriend the attention he deserves!)
So of course, like all great members of this fandom, I started thinking.
Let's do a little family history first. ;)
Buckle up. We go down a deep rabbit hole 😎
Apollo and Artemis are twins, born to Leto and Zeus. Zeus's parents are Kronos and Rhea. Leto's are Koios and Phoebe.
Rhea has connections to Dodona, as we learn in-series, but she doesn't really seem to be all that involved with prophecy.
Her siblings, meanwhile...ho ho ho, they are a WHOLE NOTHER STORY!
Let's start with Phoebe. Phoebe, like all first generation Titans, is the daughter of Gaea and Ouranos. She married her brother Koios. Her children consist of Asteria, Lelantos, and Leto. As well as Artemis and Apollo, her other two grandchildren are Hecate (Asteria) and Aura (Lelantos).
Her name means "bright" and is the root of Apollo's most famous epithet - Phoebus. She is often described as "golden-crowned" and is the Titan of bright intellect, the overseer of Earthly Prophecies, and is the second guardian of Delphi, after her sister Themis. She gifted Delphi to Apollo for his birthday after he defeated Python.
Classic grandmother move.
Anyway. There's a bit of Phoebe lore. Time for her elusive husband :3
Koios. His names means "question" or "questioning", probably because he's the Titan of inquiring intellect. He's also the overseer of Heavenly Prophecies, and has an oracle up in the North Pole guarded by an earth-dragon - you'd know this serpent by the name of Draco, the constellation btw. Additionally, Hyperborea (where Apollo goes in the winter times) is part of his domain.
eyes
Unfortunately, we have very little mythological lore on these two, and even less in the RRverse (I cling to that one (1) Koios scene) which sucks because I love them already BUT it does give me lots of legroom to mess around with canon >:)
Back to the theory now. As you may have guessed, I'll be taking us in a direction concerning Apollo's mysterious grandparents. But what does this have to do with Apollo's visions?
Well. Remember when I mentioned that Delphi is the root of all earthly prophecies?
...look at Phoebe's paragraphs. She's the overseer of Earthly Prophecies, right? So it makes sense she's been affected by Python's takeover too.
(if you've read my fics you'd know this already lmao)
Asteria, Apollo's aunt, is a little trickier. She, too, has a hand in divination, but mainly through the night/stars and dreams. <-will come back to that later.
Koios, again, is overseer of Heavenly Prophecies, and is heavily implied to be able to commune with Ouranos's spirit. This is, apparently, a Big Deal because nobody else is mentioned to be able to do this.
...Except...remember this throwaway line in The Hidden Oracle?
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^Apollo can see Ouranos too.
Within this theory is a sub-theory, so to speak - that immortals with the gift of prophecy can see Ouranos, since they can see what cannot be seen. This would include Phoebe, Asteria, Koios, and Apollo.
And it'll make sense why they'd keep it to themselves. Kronos wouldn't have been happy to hear his dad was still around. Neither would Zeus, for that matter.
So here I was. Contemplating. Wrote a few fics based around this idea. And one in particular got me thinking (fic in question being When The Stars Align), and a little ways down the road I realized something.
If Phoebe, the overseer of Earthly Prophecies, would have been affected by Python's takeover...was Koios? Could he even be affected?
Because here's the deal: Koios is the overseer of Heavenly Prophecies. Prophecies from the Sky.
Phoebe's are of the Earth - the Earth that Python has taken control of. And Delphi is the root of Earthly Prophecies - not Heavenly.
That would be Koios's oracle, up in the North Pole with Draco.
...So that means Heavenly Prophecy must have still been in business during ToA.
But then comes the question: If it was still within the gods' control, why didn't they use it?
Well...Draco's there, for one. He's probably the Python-equivalent of the North, and clearly he's still there since no myth has spoken of his death (that I know of).
If you ask me, I just think the gods are too nervous/afraid to try Koios's oracle. They were too scared to face Python, after all, until Apollo arrived. I think they'd be scared of a serpent who comes and goes from the stars as he pleases.
And as for why Apollo hasn't done anything about it...well, I think his fight with Python left him rather scarred, don't you think? He probably went "yeah grandma's oracle is enough" and the only time he ever got close to Koios's was during his time in Hyperborea.
So getting back to the main theory now. (So many rabbit holes to dive into with this post. The ADHD Urge is real)
Since Heavenly Prophecies is still active, but Earthly is in Python's control, I conclude Apollo's visions come from the Heavenly source.
Could they have come from the now-working Dodona? Maybe. But Dodona's all about those windchimes and trees. It doesn't have the Vibe, so to speak, for granting visions.
And remember. Trophonius, Herophile, and Sibyl aren't destroyed/freed yet. They have Zero connection to Apollo at this point because Python cut him off from them.
...but he didn't from the North. From Koios's divine power.
Because remember. Apollo is the god of prophecy.
Not of Earthly Prophecies, like Phoebe.
Not of Heavenly Prophecies, like Koios.
Not of nighttime divination and dreams like Asteria.
Of. Prophecy.
Prophecy as a whole. The entirety. The whole enchilada.
Every part of prophecy he's the god of, be it tarot cards to the Oracle of Delphi itself.
In my opinion, I think whatever Koios's Oracle is, it has just as must power as Delphi. The only problem was that...everybody just left it be. Nobody considered it because:
1) scary dragon
2) scary titan ruled the place
3) honestly at this point I think it's just straight-up forgotten about. Like Branchus's Oracle. I think at one point Apollo himself mentions there are other Oracles besides the ones in-series, but there's so many that his mortal brain cannot comprehend how many.
If the Grove of Dodona nearly faded into obscurity, then I think it's entirely possible Koios's Oracle was forgotten about (or so we think...I'm gonna be chewing on this for a while.)
Coming back round to TDP...I think this is a reasonable explanation about Apollo's visions. To summarize:
Apollo is cut off from Earthly Prophecy, his usual source of foresight that he gets from Phoebe
The unused, near-forgotten-about Heavenly Prophecy side of Apollo ignites to steer him on the right path
This is possible because Apollo is the god of prophecy itself, and not a single subset of prophecy, so he's not limited in the same way Phoebe is
Koios's Oracle is still out there and kicking and I will die on this hill
One problem. What about Asteria? She can interpret the future from the stars...aka the Sky. Like Koios. So couldn't she provide some insight to the future, since she, too, is connected to Heavenly Prophecy?
This is where things get a lil' tricky. And where I really slap on my tinfoil hat and start headcanoning my way through lmao
Basically, I think that since Asteria became the island of Delos (long story) a good chunk of her power is ingrained there. She's not as strong as she used to be, so her foresight isn't as strong.
This, in turn, I think could also serve as a reason why Koios's Oracle is "asleep" so to speak and nearly lost to memory in the RRverse - in fact, I think Asteria and Phoebe are the only ones who bother to remember its existence.
And Leto, of course. But I don't think she wants her son to know of another Oracle with a giant snake guarding it. She's had enough heart-attacks, thank you.
(Same with Lelantos, tbh.)
Canon is my sandbox and I am making some sweet sandcastles out of it XD
TL;DR
Apollo's visions in TDP stem from Koios's source of Heaven Prophecy because Phoebe's source of Earthly Prophecy (Delphi) has been taken over by Python. Koios's source firmly knocks on Apollo's mental doors and decides to kick back into gear to help its titular patron's grandson out. Because Apollo is the god of prophecy itself - every bit of it.
Extras:
I find it fascinating how magic and prophecy are both part of the same family tree (Hecate & Apollo).
and yes. You should expect a fic concerning Koios's Oracle at some point. but no promises on when :3
Thank you for coming to Insane Theory Time With Alder. I hope there will be more lmao
Websites you can look into:
Koios (Theoi)
Phoebe (Theoi)
Hyperborea (Theoi)
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Hey. Hey. Listen. It’s fine if there are blogs you don’t like. Just block them, okay? Do not send rude asks to people you don’t like, especially if you think they’re trolls. People do not magically deserve rudeness or worse because they’re choosing to be annoying. You cannot control others.
Sending rude asks is either being a dick or feeding the troll and neither outcome is you winning. Alright? Alright.
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boygenius notes (before the post-concert amnesia fully takes over)
came in to ‘the boys are back in town’
started by singing ‘without you without them’ backstage/ projected onscreen
julien’s lil dances around stage 😵‍💫
lucy dacus telling you not to kill yourself literally adds ten years to your lifespan I swear
during the ‘salt in the wound’ guitar solo, phoebe and lucy picked julien up and swung her around. immaculate
julien had to save a bug onstage. when phoebe reasoned that it was already outside, julien argued that it was on its back. phoebe proceeded to dedicate the next song to the bug.
phoebe sneezed and julien said GOD. BLESS. YOU. exactly like that
the whole band is so. fucking hot.
phoebe made the crowd congratulate two of her friends on video, since she was missing their wedding
when the girl next to me yelled SHE TOOK HER JACKET OFF I saw julien had, in fact, taken her suit jacket off and I truly ascended
lucy said something to the effect of ‘I see a lot of gay people out there. I hope all gay and trans people uh… have a nice day.’
julien and phoebe kiss 🥺
during lucy’s part in ‘please stay,’ julien went right up to the screen and just stood there, looking up at lucy’s projection like she was stargazing
did I mention how hot they are. did I mention julien’s arms. did I mention ju-
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I thought I related to Phoebe in the last movie because she reminded me a lot of how I felt growing up autistic and having a knack for engineering. I was definitely a lot more disabled by my autism than she is shown to be, but our special interest was the same, and that counts for something, right? So yeah, I'll say she was relatable. Not to mention her family dynamics are VERY similar to my own.
ANYWAY so now that I've watched the new movie, you mean to tell me she likes girls too??? They just keep making her more and more relatable!!! Ahsgejsgskwgevakjw!!!! (Bonus points for the fact that the girl she likes is a ghost).
This is contributing nothing to any conversation I just really wanted to gush about how much I love this character because she is literally me.
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echokelly · 2 months
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yeah, I guess the end is here
yeah yeah okay I made another. this idea hit me like a ton of bricks one night while I was stoned at my parent's house and I planned out the entirety of it in my notes app cuz I didn't have a computer. I just got home and this is the first thing I did in a frenzy. hope u cry sorry, not sorry. i love this show.
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zipstick · 1 month
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ok so we all thought that in frozen empire phoebe was going to punch walter peck in the face in that one scene. however we also all know that it cut away to her being arrested and the next time peck appears on screen he has no bruises or ice packs or anything of the sort to indicate that he had been punched.
so the question is, what did she do to him that got her thrown in jail? well i'm here to propose a new interpretation:
she spit in his face. thank you for coming to my ted talk
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Watching the burrows end epilogue was honestly one of the best things ever, like, Kenji Geoffrey and Rosie??? Lila getting a phd in A YEAR?? Jaysohn being an Olympic level long jumper???? TULA GOING BACK TO HER HOE PHASE??? oh my g od I LOVE THESE STOATS SO MUCH ;-;
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fbwzoo · 1 month
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There were 4 humans in the room. Where did 4 of the 5 upstairs big kids need to be?
On mom, of course.
(Emma is barely visible, just next to my hand on the left, behind Addy)
I have never felt more like Daine from Tamora Pierce's Tortall books.
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