#no one could queerbait like spn writers it was ART | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

incarnateirony · 1 year

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Y'all stop. Stop trying to make me One Of You. Stop trying to involve me in stan nonsense. Stop trying to involve me in fandom only arguments of idiots choosing to be idiots for the social roleplay of it all.

I have been very clear, for many years, what my real issues were. For years, you guys also tried to diminish that into your personal stan wars. The reality of the dismantling of old TBS, the bulk cancellation of shows, real BTS racist treatment or injuries my friends took, all of this you could declare Imaginary or Unimportant;

because the only thing important to yall is fighting about 3 pretty actor men and one gay ship you either want at the cost of all people around you be damned, or don't want to the same, and have let the preferences determine interpretation of real life events until the social environment is lost to its own performance art, ignoring the real battle you're fighting about.

Shippers wanted to scream queerbait and feel like they were doing something, antis screamed nuh uh delusional, and somehow the writers, market testing, et al didn't matter, only your preferences and screaming did, reality was a sidebar to yall.

Did I weaponize this fandom's anger? Abso fuckin lutely. But I had even almost accepted the ending as a Bad Ending until I realized ten years of my ground ax and studying this business for weak points lined me up for a hole in one with the assembly being built, the netflix deal lapsed, and all other situations pinning the CW in a corner with a rapidly changing industry--even knowing I could turn guns bigger than CW, WB, Paramount et all on the lot of them from syndicates if they were crunched right. Their streaming and internationals sank, their ratings gouged, and even syndicates were Over It, and so the Nexstar sale to make their own stations sustainable before complete obsoletion.

These are literally things you guys do not understand, but also refuse to. Failing to understand and failing to listen are actually very different things. And when you fail to listen for years, the perspectives, agendas, motivations or purpose of other people will be outright alien to you by the time you try to observe it outside of your own box.

Most of your boxes are "stan: an obsessive fan, usually in the name of a high visibility individual, named after the psychosis in Eminem's song, Stan". This is not my interest. Read all of the above and realize how Fundamentally Different Our Interests And Ambitions Are, and figure out why my style of speaking or information has ALWAYS remained external to main fandom "approved" boxes. Because I am not here for your stan boxes, and do not care about your psychotic stan rules and the illusion of any kind of control fans have over this space.

Figure it out, kids. No matter how angry you get in my inbox, we will never be the same, and your anger alone reveals in your "OMG U TINK UR DA MOST ITK STAN" freudian nonsense where your own heads are at and WHY my real world data is incompatible with the relativity void of "all opinions are equal and relative in screaming stan land".

Naw man. Supernatural was the show that gave Pedowitz the bright idea to ship EVERYTHING to Vancouver and fuck everybody. You think I'm really an SPN stan? Fuckin shit. I'm a Person Who Enjoys Supernatural but if it had exploded before Pedowitz had ever fucked up Atlanta, I would not be upset and we would not be here. I was not a friend to Supernatural, I have been very clear on that, but a fight to an internal battle the screaming stans here ignored going on completely until it started slapping them, and they could only adjust their narratives to pretending it was sudden, denying the years-old receipts showing how internally long lived the damn thing was. Because stans don't care about reality. They care about controlling their own fictional narratives.

'OMG U TINK UR ABOVE US' yeah, I fuckin do. Sometimes the real world is like that and people know more than you. Cope. You're probably a grown up. Deal with that. You guys are operating as Stans Of A Tv Show You Want Social Attention In. I am operating as Someone With 10+ year old personal/professional grudge and intuitive corporate nuance understanding. These are not compatible views but I will not let the reality of the latter be silenced by the performative attention seeking of the former.

People like 2po still trying to spin S15 as sudden and pretending WB paid for real expensive market testing ($400/participant, 2~ hour long, 1 on 1 Destiel Study circa Goodbye Stranger, DVD extras, and intensive romance grilling) in S12 (which he denied for 3 years until slapped with the receipts I had the whole time, which were always real, and he was always Completely Divorced From The Reality Of) for No Reason At All about The Exact Thing Three Years Earlier When The Show Started Shifting? Definitional stan psychosis, trying to control a fictional social narrative.

The reality is, that's years of this asshat being completely unplugged on both the writing, showrunning, AND corporate events, of which waterfalls of other ramifications blossomed for the years after, but the entire tree of process is something that will remain blind to them in reality until they accept what Things Actually Mean, and What Actually Happened, not Their Version Of How They Wanted To Read Things Happening At The Time. Anything else is grafting a fictional narrative over reality and hoping nobody picks up the rug to see what the pile you brushed under it is.

But he needs that fictional narrative, and those like him that eat from his lying, fiction-dealing hand. He refuses to trace back his own branch of observation to the core point in season 12 he turned left at albuquerque and in a result he's gonna keep going off on a branch into fantasy land, twisting over himself again and again as his own talking points self-conflict on his claims of how HE thinks things will work, branching again, and again, at each junction growing further away from the trunk, until his fiction is so grand he's lost HIMSELF to it.

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princesssarcastia · 3 years

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Just wanted to say I love your tag "the last great american queerbait" bc yeah. It really does feel like we'll never see this level of bait in a major media property again. Which is probably a good thing, but it makes spn all the more unique...

thank you! that's from @biggersons on this post here. excuse me while i now ramble about this bullshit

i'm sure someone else has said this before on this hellsite, but YES. supernatural is one of the last of a dying breed, certainly one of the most iconic. supernatural was thee CW show to end all CW shows before it was cool. one of the last shows with such a dichotomous fan base, with dudebros vibing with all supernatural's surface level masculinity and violence on one end, and queer people screaming into the void about intricate rituals dean creates to touch the skin of other men on the other. hell, it was one of the only popular shows on TV in 2020 that still did 22 episode seasons; certainly nearly the last sci-fi/fantasy shows to do it.

remember that post about the difference between queerbaiting, queer coding, and subtext? FOR 15 YEARS SUPERNATURAL DID ALL THREE SIMULTANEOUSLY. its a work of art. homophobic, homophobic art. also racist. and sexist. why am i enjoying this content again?

There were so many different writers and directors and showrunners and camera operators even, that you have:

the showrunners and the marketing gurus running a long-con advertising will-they-or-won't-they-(they won't) queerbait on the queer people screaming into the void because the execs want their money AND the dudebro money but hate the queer identity and the fact that they kept rubbing their queer little hands all over supernatural's manly man masculine characters...

the writers who Been Knew queer coding dean and cas and getting it under the homophobic execs' noses, to the delight of their queer audience...

and the writers who were just monkeys at typewriters churning out nonsense with moments of shakespeare who kept loading on more and more subtext that made the queer audience want to take them by the shoulders and shake their heads right off.

frankly given this mess the only person left who gets to speak with any authority is misha collins, which—

this combined to make a show that is near incomprehensible as a whole but can be sanely consumed in smaller chunks or through fanfiction that burns out the stupid stuff. There's NO way it makes sense if dean and cas aren't madly in love with each other. none. the plausible no-homo ship sailed in like season 7, or like the second time one of them watched the other die and grieved like a widower.

and yet. those dudebros, with allll their money and viewership, are still there. still watching. and so the CW tries to have its cake and eat it, too. for fifteen, fucking, years. because they fear the homophobic backlash if they just fucking commit.

they were too afraid that they would stop making something profitable to realize that they could have made a work of art, that they could have made HISTORY.

no one else will do it like them again. no one will ever even get the opportunity. i can't see anything ever again coming close to having the kind of cultural impact supernatural has, that weird mix of americana and masculinity and brief flashes of themes that make your breath catch and crave more. supernatural was a mirror of american culture in the best and the WORST way, and I don't know that TV creators have the range or the desire to ever reflect us back to ourselves like that again.

there are more explicitly queer shows now that are so much better and more heartfelt, with production teams that aren't remotely predatory. I adore them all! we need them! we deserve them! I want more of them! supernatural should not be a template for anyone ever because it was objectively terrible!

but their was something magical about the tentative hope in the air while it was still going, that little voice in the back of your mind that says, it's been fifteen years!, maybe it will grow beyond its origins, maybe they can learn from their mistakes, maybe they can reach for the happy ending that is right in front of their faces if only they would look past their prejudices long enough to see it. to see us. that's why the show blew up again in the fall of 2020, during the U.S. election, because on a meta level it was reflecting our culture and the moment back to us once again.

of course, in the grand american media tradition, they set that hope on fire. one last queerbait for the road.

so. yeah. its the last great american queerbait.

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redlenai · 2 years

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Twitter SPN is so funny, had a fun “argument” with someone but these are going to be my highlights that make me tilt my head like Jack

Basically, you are forbidden from saying “found family” or that “X character deserved better”, or that there has been “queerbaiting on the show”, that’s automatically a Heller thing, therefore your argument is invalid and whatever you say will not be taken seriously independently if you’re not exclusively talking about shipping on the show, independently if you’re NOT a heller/destiel fan; you are automatically considered someone who wants “rainbows and happy My Little Pony kind of endings”

That I’m a poor ignorant thing for believing that there is romance in SPN, actually not, I believe there was a fricking shirt-storm of hands of writers, editors, actors, producers, directors and more meddling with the story and the characters constantly that the show doesn’t have a solid identity like on the first 5 seasons. A terrible implemented confession that even if it was meaningful to Save the World, is useless if it’s going to be ignored and removed from the narrative (cofcof and not only they buried the gays but as well the heterosexual romantic interest of the other brother) and both brothers looked emotionless during the finale after they won as if they were drugged by the Turducken sandwich)

They say they don’t “invalidate” your “Heller” opinion and again independently if you’re or not actually one, they claim you’re being pathetic, ridiculous, idiotic, (insert more insults here), wasting your time and that there are more important things out in the real world... all said from an anti-heller exclusively made account, but if you were to speak to them with the same level of insults you’ll be “as problematic as the rest of hellers”, and if you call out the unfair treatment, they’ll make thousands of buts just so attempt to claim you’re actually the hypocrite one. They openly say they hate hellers and while claiming they “don’t put everyone on the same bag” they still prejudge, insult, assume everything that I could possibly think regarding the show.(Which is an impossible take since I change my mind and have several ideas coexisting even if they are opposites too)

They can say that you’re wrong, delusional, that you have been watching a totally different show, that this is a horror show where happy endings or sexuality have no place there and it’s only and solely about the brothers fighting the supernatural. They genuinely believe that characters like Dean are loved only for the bisexual undertakes and claim we reduce the character to a “stereotype” of homosexuality where that it’s his only personality (Like, yeah,they... don’t care if you’re actually queer/bisexual, if you identify with Dean you’re actually being disrespectful to LGBT and making a stereotype over him) While you’re there letting their own version being able to coexist, not calling them wrong but that they have a different perspective and resolution over the overal message of the show. Not to mention that we’re all a bunch of disrespectful idiots for processing the show with a different interpretation than them and that “I’m the one being disrespectful”, like I’m sorry but I don’t even live in the USA nor told Jensen at his face that Dean must be Bi/The finale sucked/he is my bitch/to do homoerotic OPs with his soulmat--- brother.

They can claim that they are “studying audiovisual arts and know how to make a better show than your shitty fanfic. You’re wasting your time and complaining when there are bigger issues than your stupid little ship”, funny thing, I don’t make fanfics yet I do work for comics, I have won a few prizes, worked with editorials, made narrative and character development studies, have supported causes and being involved on IRL problems to try to solve them and such---- Oh no, I’m bragging and showing my privileges just to show my superiority to a fuck-hellers account, I’ve been building my entire artistic and author career just for the sake of this moment, I need to be realistic that just because I want Cas and Dean married (???) that doesn’t mean that it’ll happen, that I only care about these characters just because I see them as GAY but ignore all the other queer characters (The same characters the person claims are not important, not crucial to the main protagonists development, are not friends nor family, are only extras but seems that they only care about said characters just to have them as arguments to say “There are crumbs of representation, but since they are not your delusional gay pairing you don’t care about them”) and honestly, I’m that little weirdo who would watch several spin-offs, mini shows, novels, comics or whatever SPN related content without needing the brothers to be in there as protagonist and to even provide new characters that could appeal to a section of the fandom without “degenerating” the main cast if you so much consider it like that.

Oh, and since I’m a disgusting little Heller I actually only have to like one single headcanon about how the finale could have been and if you would have liked any kind of different ending even tragic, neutral, vanilla, strange, open, etc then you’re just contradicting yourself and making no total sense and continue to being delusional. (Mostly, because I said that I would have even liked an Ending where everyone dies and the world gets destroyed just like in Devilman, as if finally deciding the show to be tragic to the very end)

Final take, I got told to go “make silly little fanfics and comics fixing the finale since you hated it so much”, like, idk if it’s a hate-love relationship where you hate the content but still want more of it just for the thrill to complain about “dha gays continue making the show gaaay noooo”

#red rambles #some spn fans are so inflexible to multidimentional outcomes #you know hellers so well that you assume we all want think or act the same #I barely consider myself a heller idk I just simply know I lack passion compared to other artists or people into the ship #bishes thinking my only ship is destiel is so wrong lmao #I started this damn show liking megstiel and even to this day I consider it superior to destiel

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sinnabonka · 3 years

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Hey Hun! Lots of love to you. For starters I wanted to say that there should be no cell in your body blaming yself in any way. You and your blog were hope for so many people. You were the "you are not crazy" of the final weeks, and I'm forever grateful to you. Instead of dying of anxiety I managed to have a blast in this time of waiting, thanks to you. I passed my master thesis, because you gave me strength to see past the fear. I laughed in those weeks more than in last 5 years, and all of it because of the hope you gave me.

The rest of the msg is going to be pretty emotional rant about the awfulness of it all, and I know my opinion doesn't matter to anyone but I wanted someone important to me to hear my thoughts, if that's ok. It's also ok if you don't want to read it ofc. It's like my breakup letter to the show.

I hear many people cheering for the finale and i find it really hard to deal with. I always considered myself an open person who fights for healthy love as the only redeeming quality of the universe. I could see people's point of view, even if it didn't sit well with mine, and I would always try to hear them out respectfully until they weren't being respectful themselves. That said, I'm fully unable to understand cheering for this type of spiteful content and hearing those cheers makes me feel like the entire world is listening to "this is how you treat your fans, this is how to abuse your power over naive sheep, this is how to keep dumb, hopeful minorities in check" and taking notes.

It also upsets me that the people who gave this show all of themselves and tried to understand it to the core are given no resolution, are spitted on and buried under the rug for doing their best to appreciate the art and the story it was telling. Yet people, who just hang around and watch the show doing the dishes, with no consideration to it's story or characters, got as nonsensical ending as their whole idea of character development in SPN.

I know people say that it was good enough, because it leaves space for guessing and own interpretation, but I feel it's really undermining the extend to which the finale was awful and hurtful to the fans. There is no end that realistically could stop fanfic writers from finding way around it in the world of Supernatural, so saying it was thoughtful of them Is like excusing abusive partner because "they could hit me harder, but they didn't. That means they care"

Lose ends, characters being written in a way that is totally not true to them and their development (personally my biggest allegation), dismissing years of story development, proving that it was all 'queerbaiting' in big part in the end (hell, even the whole "Cas is in heaven so do with it what you will" is a shameful way of appalling to LGBTQ community after using them so hard.

In the pie scene, the roles should be swapped, it's Dean who should say that Cas is on his mind and Sam explaining him that it's only right to keep on living doing good in their name. That's what Dean told Sam at the beginning of the season, when Sam lost Rowena, so it would be at least a bit poetic. This would at least give us some truth from Dean for once, but he died how he lived, in shadow of his fear to be true towards his feelings and needs. And as he died, he bound his little brother to the hunting till the end of his days, by guilting him into it on his deathbed. Guess Dean took after his father.

Have you realised what that emotional "love speech" from Dean to Sam resulted in? It was writers taking back Cas' confession after they didn't need our viewership anymore.

They basically gave us love confession to get us to follow the finale and when they didn't need us anymore, not only they didn't commit to the confession, but they undermined it by having Dean's speech to Sam go the way it did with obviously higher emotional charge, successfully taking back the value of Cas' confession and making it about a bait for "Tumblr idiots"

Finale killed my feelings towards Destiel, not because it wasn't confirmed canon, but because from what I see in the episode, they canonically confirmed that

- for Dean, Cas was only means to an end, which is such an awful way of ending Cas' character arc. They gave him everything he was scared of and nothing close to consolation price and they dare to tell us he had a happy ending, "because they said so". Well, I didn't see him being happy, and knowing what i textually know i can empathise enough to say that he faced a miserable finish. Even Chuck got an end that was better than Cas' fate.

- Dean, given power to do anything he could dream of, chooses to not even greet Cas, after Cas gave his whole life to Dean, told him he loved him and died for him. I know some people consider the little smirk of Dean confirmation of his feelings, but let's be real for just a second. If someone you deeply loved for years confessed to you, told you they thought you don't love them back, you would be freaking running to see them and tell them how much you love them. That smirk to me reads as "I'm relieved to know you're not going to spend eternity in mega hell that i left you in" and we really need to stop giving credit to writers for scraps like this when it's the last episode ever and we know this isn't going anywhere.

Not to mention that by having Jack bring Cas back behind the scenes it just highlights the fact that Dean didn't ask him to do that in episode 19.

As result, I'm unable to look at any Destiel scene and not think "in here Cas already loved him and in here Dean already abuses the power he had over Cas, because of his one-sided love"

And yet, the episode and endgames for everyone (maybe not Sam, but he was seriously pinning for Dean his entire life. Wincest much?) managed to be so bad, that not even bringing Cas back or following up on Destiel would make a difference in my eyes. I know you believe that Destiel would save it, but for me as much as it would be a redeeming quality, it wouldn't be enough to save this awfulness that writer doomed characters with.

And all the Wincest scenes in the finale... I low key expected them to make out and it made me feel physically sick. Also, cutting Misha out because of coronavirus is a cheap excuse. We all know better than to believe that, so let's not fall for the self pity play from the abuser.

If you managed to stay with me till this point, thank you so much for hearing me out. I hope i didn't anger you with my monologue. I will always think of the lamp when i think of you. The reality is that you were the lamp for so many of us in this darkness.

Love you so much, wish all the best to you, take care of yourself and stay safe!

Oh my god, if I didn’t cry with the final, I definitely am crying now. And now I have to explain my partner why I’m staring at my laptop and sobbing ugly. What have you done?

First of all, I hear you pain, my friend! I share it! I didn’t spend a second after the final without the feeling of my heart being shuttered into million pieces, being stitched back just to break again, and so on and so on.

I had my first panic attack in two years yesterday, when I kept thinking about the message the show sent to the fandom via Dean’s fate. I have a few posts in my draft on the matter, but I am not sure I will ever share them, because it is one strong depresso, and I don’t think people following me should see how fucked up it really is (if they didn’t get it by themselves, of course).

I want to remind you, my gentle soul, that the story belongs to us. We know Dean, we know Cas, we know Sam and others. We know that the final is not who they are! I know it’s hard to ignore the text, the canon, because it’s kinda godsent, but the truth is essential. And the final is not the truth.

The truth:

Cas loves Dean, he sacrificed himself for him, he saved his life on multiple occasions, he told all those beautiful things and he meant every word.

Dean loves Cas, he was on his lowest every time he lost him, Cas was his “big win”, his best friend, his brother, his white light that lead him out of his anger, hatred and despair. He took a dog and called it Miracle, he was looking for a job to retire from hunting, he didn’t kill Chuck - all of that, because the sacrifice Cas made was not in vain! The message was clear.

I choose to ignore the “Carry on”, the only attention it is going to get is me creating 20 more mails just to put a one star review there and to drop some more salty or bitter comments with it. Maybe I will read through some reviews, too, add them to my collection.

Maybe I will one day write here an article from scriptwriting perspective how fucked up in was, because that’s what I can do about it, without throwing up.

If you can’t ignore it, I understand it. It is painful, it is disrespectful, I hate it as much as you do, probably.

If there’s anything I can do for you to feel better, just drop me a message, we can talk about it. I am on the lowest, too, but maybe we can help each other.

You say I was your lamp. Let me lead you our of the darkness one more time <3

CW can suck my metaphorical dick (I’m tagging every angry post with it), but Supernatural is not just the show on CW, it’s a big family.

And you can’t give up on it! You can’t give up on Dean and Cas, you can’t give up on Destiel! It’s so much bigger then the show itself.

Rediscover the show for yourself, remind yourself that Dean and Cas are real, it was never one sided, it was always something amazing.

What is real? We are.

Don’t you ever change.

I rather have you, cursed or not.

It’s love, hun, and love always wins.

#the15yearshow #spn #destiel #cw #can suck my metaphorical dick #sinnabonka answers

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adrunkgiraffe · 3 years

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I have been through this journey before, so I get to be actually frustrated about it.

IUnder a read more because im not subjecting y’all to this. Also: I should caveat I haven’t watched the episode cause I’m waiting till its on Netflix but I have watched way too many other episodes of Supernatural so I have a right to say these things.

TL;DR: I mean you all knew Cas’ confession was fucking bullshit and that SPN is...hm. But I’d like to actually express my genuine frustration, for a moment? I’m going to say things you already know, but I have too much knowledge of this show and too much stupid meta in my brain about a series I haven’t genuinely enjoyed for at least 5 years which makes this not just blandly bad but disgustingly insulting to me not even as a gay just as like. A writer?

Or, even shorter: Cas’ confession is just a Charlie Bradbury Speedrun

So. As some of you may know if, for some reason, you followed me back in 2013 (and till...okay fine 2015), I used to be, uh. Really into SPN. Really, I was into Destiel. Like, as in, I slogged through seasons 1-3 to get to Cas and am also really vulnerable to the Sunk Cost Fallacy and projecting onto characters. (I was in 8th grade in 2013, okay? Get off my back)

Also, because I monopolised use of the TV, I kind of...also got my parents into it? In a “this is silly but fun” kind of way.

Over time, critiques of the show from viewers, learning what queerbaiting is at all, fatigue with how long it was going, and also fatigue from how characters I enjoyed, like Rufus, or Crowley, or Ellen, or Jo, or Kevin, or Charlie, or Cas a few times, kept getting killed off. As time went on, it didn’t escape my notice that, aside from Cas, all of these characters fit one or more of the following criteria:

They were a woman

They were a person of color

Were Queer or Queer-coded in some way (listen Crowley was bad rep but at least Mark Sheppard actually kissed a man on screen)

I also just...generally got tired of the way the show treats women and sidelines people of color.

The final straw really came with Charlie’s death. It got us all excited, because she hadn’t been back in a bit! And it was interesting to see how reuniting with her dark side from Oz had changed her! (yeah remember the fucking Wizard of Oz storyline? The writers sure don’t!) And maybe she’d get developed! Because at this point, Charlie and the fairly good writing of her character was a major upside for the series! Charlie was cool, fun, gay, and morally complex in a way...none of the female characters had been before her, in large part because by definition, her relationship with the boys would always be platonic.

And then. Offscreen. She is violently murdered. For no damn good reason. Like, literally, her being brought back in this episode after fucking off to europe after having returned from fucking off to Oz seems to have filled two purposes in total.

The codex is solved (but Sam doesn’t know till next episode)

Charlie is dead, which means Dean can be angry, specifically at Sam, and kill more people because he’s the big bad this season.

That’s it. Two things. Twooooo whole reasons to do this episode. Whoopee.

But you didn’t come here for this, you came here for me to rip this reveal to shreds. Don’t worry, I’ll get there. What I want in your minds is that Supernatural already had a really good anddynamic queer character. And then they killed her off to make Dean angry. No, it doesn’t matter that they brought her back in season 13 or whatever. They made that decision.

After the rage this incited, I started realizing general flaws in the writing (I had probably already noticed them but now I was angry enough to complain.) Every conflict is born of Sam and Dean not communicating/taking on burdens and Dean being angry at Cas for reasons that ranged from good to ridiculous, but in a way that always went way too fucking long, (which...yes, does make the “you do it for love” gifs fucking hilarious). It didn’t help that seasons 11 and 12 were next, which meant Demon Dean and GOD’S FUCKING SISTER, plus the decision to resurrect Mary, which, while I do like her later scenes, as a season 12 finale it...well I’ll be honest it kinda sucked. It undercut the majority of the Winchester’s’ arcs and their slow and painful journey out of their father’s toxic vengeance quest and knowing Mary as a person when it’s too late to know her was one of the last semi-compelling grounders of the narrative.

By this point it was a hate-watch for my parents and I.

So then, I’m at college, and I’m not watching anymore cause I don’t have the motivation or access to Hulu to continue, and SPN is bad. I watch the Scooby Doo crossover when it comes out and my friend and I make fun of it, and we also continue making jokes about Dean and Cas and queerbaiting because we’re queer, but I don’t keep up. My Dad does though, so when I return, I watch some with the fam and lads. It’s even more tiring without context.

So flash forward to Quarantine, my sister, the only one with taste, has left, and we have run out of netflix to watch. So we return to the well, and seasons 13-14 are. I’m gonna say it. Bad. Really fucking bad. The cycle of bad communication continues, season 14 has like seven antagonists and the way it’s structured makes it so I literally cannot remember the timeline of a season I watched 3 months ago. Oh also, they have a queer coded cannibal snake monster for...well I guess Jack’s snake bud was cool but like. Huh wow it’s almost like these writers don’t handle queers well.

Our one saving grace is Cas, but he’s barely in any episodes, though I did note that his deal with the empty, being happy completely for one moment killing him, that struck me as “this has potential and I know they’re gonna half-ass it somehow.” Also Jack and Mary, but then oh...plot….The most compelling it gets is literally the finale.

But then, 3 days later, the first half of season 15 comes out on Netflix and it’s...actually kind of acceptable. The new character they give Jack’s actor is fun to watch him play until they make him evil. Exploring just how toxic Chuck can be gave the series direction again. The alternate future was genuinely scarring, and Eileen’s return was genuinely moving. Most of all, though, Cas got the opportunity to tell Dean no, that Dean was being unfair to him, had always been unfair to him, and he was sick of it. I had no illusions, I knew Destiel was never gonna happen, and Cas was gonna die, but giving him that bit of agency, letting Cas grow and be self-sufficient, and be angry with Dean not for existential reasons but interpersonal ones, was such a good sign for me, and Dean grew too! Dean fucking apologized for being horrible and Jensen Ackles had a...yknow what, ill give it to him, he had a good acting moment.

But the thing. About. The “I love you.”

Let’s take it in parts.

What was good: I’m gonna admit it, lads, “Wanting what I can’t have” - AS A LINE - is good, and, structurally, there is something to the Empty Deal that could have been an interesting aspect of Cas’ arc when it comes to self actualization and being on even footing with Dean. The problem is, this is Supernatural, and that arc only comes up when I bring it up because character study, even in bad media, is fun for me.

What was bad:

I mean. Like. All of it? All of it.

Okay. Fine. I’ll be specific.

Cas dies immediately when - possibly because- he is revealed as having feelings for Dean. They kill him as they queer him, that’s a Bury Your Gays Speedrun right there.

Like the least they could have done is have him mention it to someone in another scene or something to establish some romantic feelings on the part of canon a full episode beforehand. That would have been the literal bare minimum.

When Cas starts praising Dean, for some reason both the writing and Misha’s acting take a bit of a downswing (from...where it already was). Cas, whose most powerful moment this season was acknowledging that Dean’s anger at him is cruel and unfair, flatly praises him for doing everything out of love and it reads with a misunderstanding of both Dean as a character and Cas’ understanding of Dean. Dean is angry! VERY ANGRY! And it’s a problem he needs to work on and rarely does.

Talking out of my ass, a better speech would have been about how Dean is angry because of his love for Sam, family, and the people around him, how, for better or for worse, he can’t help but be angry on behalf of others, and that his journey of moving that tendency towards the better is what made Cas care so much. Guys this alteration to the metaphor took 2 minutes to write tops I am an Art History student and these are TV WRITERS WITH YEARS OF EXPERIENCE CAN YOU TELL THEYRE NOT TRYING YET?

A better speech would, of course, have come out of a better series. My point: this part was half-assed. Poorly written. Wow it’s almost like the series is also poorly written.

Also, Misha is the better actor of the three(***OF THE THREE), but his choices in that scene are jarringly out of character which. Makes the bad writing worse. It doesn’t help that they cut to the same fucking shot of Dean 3 times. The chemistry in that scene makes it feel so fucking hackneyed. Because it is.

This combines lead me to the point: (wait there was a point to this?)

As someone who does not have the luxury of watching this capsized ship fall into boiling seas from a distance, it is less insulting to me that they did this so last minute and then sent Cas to the Void than it is how they did it. They had ingredients for something that could have been compelling enough to me as a former fan of the show to think that they had put effort into it, that they had decided months, perhaps even years ago to do this, and had crafted a storyline around it. That this was an intentional decision they cared about. It wasn’t. It was barely even pandering, because it’s almost insultingly blatant.

SPN kinda proved to me that it didn’t care about queers when Charlie was killed off. It proved it to me again when Cas, not only died in confessing his love for Dean but did it in the weakest result of what could have been a surprisingly strong story.

#destiel #i don't fucking care im tagging it #bury your gays #queerbaiting #homophobia #also: i should say there are a lot of moments where i refer to aspects of the writing as good #this either means i was 14 when I watched it #or #it's something that i find compelling #that #IN ANOTHER SHOW #OR IN A HYPOTHETICAL WHERE THE WRITING ISNT LADEN WITH HOMOPHOBIA #could be fun to explore #like there are these structural motifs #and themes #which could have made the show good #could have made that confession...passable #but they didn't even write it well by supernatural standards #is my point #My other point is i get to actually be mad about this because I actually watched and put emotional energy towards this show #i shouldnt have but i did #so now I get to write about it #and if you reply we been knew to this post #youre correct #but also #wow do you maybe think I was already aware of that?

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go-diane-winchester · 5 years

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Why destiel shippers should not speak about destiel endgame?

@the-winchesters-ruined-my-life asked the following question.

Thank you for the ask. A short while back, my prim and proper side, would have responded diplomatically that its a merely ship, an artistic platform, and therefore does not warrant any hate from most level headed people. However, I have to realize that even art activates the tolerance threshold. I used to read destiel slash out of curiosity. There are many more like me who dipped their toes in the destiel cesspool, only to recoil in disgust when they realized that it was probably going to give them gangrene. Destiel was a sweet little ship, once upon a time, until things dramatically changed for the worst. Most people who ship destiel are extreme by design because that is how the meta writers designed their thinking. Non heller fans contradict each other. I don't see that with hellers. Some upper echelon hellers says something and these fans just accept it without question. Take for example, the following post, recently penned by @anti-anti-destiel, lamenting the impending end of SPN.

The first flaw, is the OP's name. They are glitching the tags with a name like this. Everything and everyone has an anti tag. What makes destiel so special that it must never have an anti tag? That is manipulative and delusional because nothing will disappear just because you wished it away. People that are going to despise destiel are growing, whether OP sticks her head in the stand or not.

Anyway, here is the post, which I edited where necessary and italicized. My responses are in bold.

....Season 15 will be the last, with another 20 episodes.

There has been talk about queerbaiting in the past, and whether or not SPN will go down in history as a show with a slow-burn queer romance, or whether it will be forever known as the most queerbaiting show in existence.

This is why non-destiel fans get infuriated. If there are any ''good'' destiel fans out there, why don't they tell this entitled princess to stop ruining the reputation of a show that has genuinely made people happy? SPNFamily is very ironic when you want to tear apart a show that gave made you smile for 14 seasons. This alone makes me wonder if there are any ''good'' destiel shippers out there. The other hot topic is that of queer baiting. Notice how queer baiting is NOT up for debate. I have seen the master list of ''proof'' that SPN is queer baiting. The parallels, metaphors and prop analysis are extremely insulting to adult human intellect. Performing Dean is perhaps the most biphobic concept I have ever come across. There is a reason these meta writers don't want their head canon's discussed because they know that people with logic with wipe the floor with them. I can almost picture Jensen bursting into laughter if he ever read that master list. It is that nonsensical. The meta writers claim they are being queer baited, and everyone believes it. Nobody questions the writers. Why?

All the cards will be on the table in the writers’ room.

Dabb is destiel friendly.

Bobo is destiel friendly.

Davy is destiel friendly.

Steve is destiel friendly.

Meredith is destiel friendly.

Buckner and Ross-leming are ???

Singer is ???

When a meta writer writes something like this, how come low level destielers don't ever question her? Why not ask her: if Dabb and gang are destiel friendly, then why is it that Cas didn't even get invited to 300th episode family dinner party? They practically forgot about him. BuckLeming are NOT destiel friendly, because Leming [along with Misha] claimed that an episode with a turning point was coming up. Turns out there was no turning point. Leming and Misha were just making a mockery out of the destiel fans. Why is it that Leming was called out for that lie and NOT Misha?

And why is it that the most important people in this equation are always left out? Both Jensen and Jared have said time and again, that destiel is not part of SPN canon. How come they get left out? Do you think their opinion doesn't matter? And if it doesn't, then why is that? I would really like to know.

Other numerous cast and crew are destiel friendly. And before someone starts, regardless of previous statements, Jensen is more friendly to the idea than you may think.

Why don't any of the destielers ask this meta writer HOW she knows that Jensen is friendly to destiel? One fool told me that Jensen told her during a photo op that he was OK with destiel. But yet he says on stage that destiel doesn't exist. Now, why would he do that? What makes these idiots think that Jensen is two-faced or spineless. This meta writer said it, and everyone believed it. Not a single person decided to cross-examine her regarding her claims. Jensen doesn't like destiel. He destroyed the only panel he shares with Misha. I think getting death threats from hellers did it. I don't blame him.

Our main barrier is convincing Pedowitz and the Network Powers that be that it should happen. Fandom has campaigned, tulpa’d, prayed, begged, etc. We will know by May, 2020, what the decision will be.

So she wants to rally a bunch of delinquents to annoy and aggravate TPTB. And what fandom is she talking about. There are many fans who HATE destiel, because of Jensen's death threats, as well as arson, kidnapping and vandalism threats. Ordinary fans of SPN are fed up of destiel meta writers speaking up for every one of us. The destiel fans are only a subsection of the overall fan base. We would prefer if they didn't speak for us all. Pedowitz has already acknowledged only J2 as the leads and TPTB has told them that the show will go for as long as they want. So TPTB are acknowledging the leads opinions. Neither of the actors are going to say yes to destiel.

We have seen the hints in Dabb’s era, where it could go. He is ON BOARD, people. Whether you want to believe it or not. It’s so close to being fully textual canon.

What did she see in the Dabb era? Cas admiring Dean's looks? No, he admired Sam's looks. Dean telling Cas he loved him? No, he said that to Sam. Dabb is giving every other pairing its day in the sun, but not destiel. Why is that? I think it has something to do with the reputation destroying queer baiting accusation. This person is fooling you in order to stay relevant. I can tell you now, there are personal stakes involved in shipping. In order to stay popular and relevant, meta writers will spin mile long yarns. Meta writers are like a step up from a slash fic writer. In a weird way, they are revered without any merit or qualification. That is how gullible the destiel fan base is. They never probe a claim. And they never just enjoy their ship. Everything has to be about canon destiel, ship wars [their latest victim is sastiel] and they never acknowledge criminal threats. Being loyal to them means that you are popular with the bad crowd. Let that sink in.

So while some may be preparing for the eventual let-down, it is completely acceptable to keep the faith. If it doesn’t happen, it won’t be the fault of writers, cast, or crew.

Oh, no it will be the fault of the meta writers, like this joker, and Misha Collins. Misha has actively queer baited his fans for ten years. Its funny how Jensen is the bad guy for saying that destiel doesn't exist, but Misha is such a kidder if he says anything destiel and even cockles friendly. Misha Collins is the only person on the cast, crew and writers who actively and vocally pushed destiel consistently for ten years. So much so that he ignored sastiel. He changed that at Nashcon for reasons unknown. If you want to lash out at anyone for destiel not being canon, please go ahead and lash out at Misha. The only one who gave you any hope was Misha.

In conclusion: I have only met one destiel shipper [receipt on my blog], who acknowledged that destiel shippers were becoming ghastly and that Misha was egging on the troublemakers. She admitted that she didn't approve of his behavior. Other than her, I have not come across another. Other than this one person, nobody else deserves my empathy. When SPN ends without destiel being canon, prepare for the hellers being mocked by all and sundry, due to all the many enemies they earned for the threats, attacks on J2 and the vandalism. No one will feel sorry for them, because they ruined this fandom. Remember, Destiel is not a religion. Loving and believing it is not a prerequisite for being an SPN fan.

Excuse the typos.

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justanearth-boundmisfit · 5 years

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destielette1 replied to your post “It's fucking hilarious how you don't even have to give a hint...”

I sent the comment too fast anyway i was saying that the show and the fandom are agonizing, that’s a fact , I don’t think they can save it now , not with these writers , and not with the main reasons that made the show go to its 15th (no matter what the incest shippers say) are being treated like shit and literally killed, and I’m talking about both Cas and destiel.

We lost so many good people , so many excellent meta writers , like awed frog for example, people are fed up, thousands Shippers get fed up of their queer baiting and left the show, and it shows in the ratings. And the way the show been pandering to incest Shippers lately made things even uglier , I will always cherish Cas and Destiel no matter what , but I will not keep a good memory of Spn. I always said that a show success doesn’t lie in its longevity but in its ending ,

The shows that end badly are quickly forgotten , the main actors of these show often pay for the writers errors and they rarely find other significative roles again, just look at the actors of lost, this getting really long , I needed to someone who is not an hypocrite , thank you for trying to stay honest and don’t ever change , love you 🌹

I hope you don’t mind I put all your comments together because I think they are on point. And coming from you, and how much I know you love Destiel and Cas are incredible important right now.

Under the cut the rest because it got long... as usual...

I agree almost completely in all that you say. And I say almost because I think when spn ends is not going to be forgotten or forgiven. It’s going to stay in the history of queerbaiting tv forever. It’s already happening even before the show ends, the only thing that maintains it like you say, it’s destiel and Cas, and I’m saying this not as a shipper or a Cas’ fan, it’s simple facts. We don’t have to search too hard for these facts either, destiel has been on lists with otps and canon ships on major sites for quite a while now, everybody knows that making a list with deancas is surely going to get thousands of clicks, the polls always have them for the same reason. The amount of fics, art, codas, metas, articles about them is incredible. And we are talking about a ship that is not canon, and that Dabb made sure to kill it dead. Imagine if things were different, just imagine.

That’s why I say that spn is going to go infamous in that respect, is going to be up there with Sherlock, and the meltdown johnlock created is going to pale with the one we are going to have with spn. It’s going to be hard af to watch and I have been saying “please don’t listen or read meta bs that is is lying to you because is not healthy” like a parrot, because I KNOW some people are going to get hurt so so much.

I’m glad that I can finally started to distance myself a little from the show and from the ship, it’s really liberating not to be so down or angry all the time. Or just waiting for my 3 minutes of Cas every now and then just to be disappointed again, I’m not letting tptb do that to me ever again. And yeah it’s fiction, but fiction can hurt you too, can turn into an obsession, and that’s what happened with spn on so many levels... Tptb play with that constantly, and worst of all they know VERY WELL what they are doing. Metas like to talk about how “everything is so well crafted in the writer’s room!” and that “everything has a reason to be” yeah the reason is to keep fans watching, buying merch, going to cons, and spending money. Sorry not sorry, but spn at this point is so clearly just all about the money tptb can get out of fandom.

What is sad af, it’s the lost potential, spn could’ve been incredible, not only if destiel went canon, but if the writing wasn’t so shitty, repetitive and boring. Also metas likes to point out how “season 14 is all about characterization” lmao! If the 300th ep proved something is that they dgaf about characterization! They brought back John with a storyline that didn’t make sense AT ALL, it was pure fan service. They also like to point out how much the bros have expanded their family and “it’s not about only them anymore”. But again, the 300th proved them wrong, it’s all about blood family, it’s all about the bros (and I totally agree with you that we have so many wincest winks lately wtf). I have talked so many times why this is not going to change, that I feel the deja vu running through my veins. They have a formula, a formula that gave them 15 seasons, they are not going to change it, even if the ratings are down, they are stuck with their bs. Dabb’s era is the worst that I have seen, and I’m not afraid to say it. Even when I hated Gamble for so long, at least we had great eps now and then. But these last three years oh gods, they are so bad! They totally destroyed Cas and Dean, and deancas, and the myth arcs and lore were non-existent to them. Continuity? What’s that? And don’t make me talk about their obsession with abusive white males that they keep bringing back or giving a redemption arc too (ketch, john, nick/lucifer to name a few).

Ugh... there’s so much more to REALLY analyze about spn, instead of writing about parallels and the light, and the wardrobe. But alas, I’m no meta, and I’m really tired of all their bs. What I feel the most is the lost of great bloggers, friends and fans, I terribly missed them. Nowadays we have to go around social media, esp twitter, being really careful about what you say, otherwise the horde of positivity police will bury you shouting “you’re a casonly! you’re bitter and that is as bad as being a bronly! you’re the dark side of the fandom!” And that’s why metas and their positivity policing are also responsible for destroying fandom. It shows in the amount of blogs that are deleted or changed by fans, it shows in the mess that fanfiction is right now, it shows in the wars that we have and how much the fandom is divided. We have to thank them for that imo, I have seen them in action, I have experienced their policing. But idgaf about what they say about me or my little blog. I’m not shutting up, they can all go fuck themselves because I’m not forgiving or forgetting how much they clapped when tptb killed Cas in season 12. And they call US the dark side of the fandom? Lmao!

Sorry it go this long. But I’m venting and ranting, well you know me at this point. And I want to really thank you for your last words, because I know that we have different opinions on certain matters but you always showed me so much respect... I really appreciate it like you have no idea, because it shows me that we can all exchange opinions or think different but also we can be decent with each other. For me you’re one of the greatest in this fandom. I have to thank spn, despite everything, that I could meet people like you. All the hugs, and love you too.

#destielette1 #rant #vent #rant of rants #replies #ranty replies #opinions #don't like don't read #anti spn #just in case #destiel for ts #just in case too #anti metas bullshit #dirt for ts

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go-diane-winchester · 5 years

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My debate with a destiel shipper

@artificial-strawberry Thank you for your response, and not just cussing me out. It is nice to know what is going on in your head. First of all, neither I nor any of the other disgruntled fans I have encountered have any issues with ships. We have issues with militant destiel fans behaving in a way that we think might endanger Jensen and Jared. I have receipts on that.

People don't hate them for nothing. And I have never seen destiel shippers do posts about bad bullying and death threats online behavior towards Jensen. The good ones don't police their sides. They quickly say ''we are not all like that''. So please understand where my irritation is coming from. Mine and everyone else's.

Your response to ''Jensen can make decisions, including stopping destiel from becoming canon''.

You’re entitled to your own opinion. You don’t have to ship destiel. And you’re right, Jensen and the others do probably have a lot of power on the show, and maybe I should have phrased that more clearly: since I’ve seen some people blaming Jensen/Misha for not advocating for destiel bc ”they would be able to make it happen”, I wanted to point out that 1. they probably DON’T want to make it happen and 2. even IF they did, this is such a big decision that the writers/producers most likely wouldn’t listen to them if they were completely against it. Were the roles reversed, however, and the writers wanted to make destiel happen and the actors didn’t, then yes, Jensen and Misha probably could tell them not to do it if they didn’t want it to happen.

My response

Actually only Jensen, Jared and Bob Singer [unfortunately] are allowed to make decisions regarding the script. Misha is not a lead and no longer No 3 on the call sheet. He is a guest star [not a series regular] whose time on SPN has only increased because the season has been shortened. Contractually, he is still doing the same amount of work, but it just appears that he is making more appearances. This, according to the SPN spokesperson. He has no clout in the decision making process. This is what I find baffling about you, don't speak about Jensen and Misha equally when it comes to decision making. Misha has no power. Jensen has power. Speak about them individually. So yeah, Jensen can make changes. Misha, and he had said this so many times, has no power to make changes. Not only has he worked in fewer seasons. He has worked in less episodes.

Misha, according to another destiel fan, wants destiel to be canon. You are saying he doesn't. Meanwhile, Jensen gets an arson threat for telling the truth too many times. So no, this is not a live and let live situation. There is no destiel. It is a fanon ship, not a canon ship. And only Misha gave his fans the impression that it could be canon.

Your responses to ''Misha queer baited the shippers with his itch tweet and he consistently queer baits''.

What you said about Misha, I can’t necessarily verify. I haven’t seen all the things you talked about, but it is true that he has ”joked” about destiel in the past. I, too, at first was annoyed by it. You know, don’t talk about it so much if it’s never going to happen. But then I thought about it. And I realized that Misha is part of that ship. We are not. We can distance ourselves, he can not. He gets stories written about himself giving blowjobs to one of his best friends. We do not. So the fact that he jokes about the ship might be something he does in order to make fun of the thing that makes him uncomfortable. And I understand that.

You cant verify whether Misha sent out the tweet? But the tweet is what the hellers are complaining about. It is one of many instances that he has done that. Misha is only part of SPN. He is NOT part of a ship. He didn't sign a contract with destiel. And yes, he can totally distance himself from it. Who is holding a gun to his head. All he has to do is stop talking about it. J2 have been aware of wincest for 14 years. They have only mentioned it a handful of times, but only when they are asked about it, and yet they are aware of the stories and the fan art. They use the art to prank each other. But they don't discuss wincest with fans, because that is the intelligent thing to do. They don't want to give fans ideas. How come they managed to distance themselves. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, is ''compelling'' Misha to make everything about destiel and even Cockles, which he had no business speaking about either, because Cockles is a tinhat pairing. He is only one half of a pairing. And if the other half, Jensen speaks against destiel, Misha calls him a motherf*cker. I have receipts of that. Why would he do that? No one is forcing Misha. He is doing it for his own amusement. Who forced him to make the TSA movie. He is not making fun of destiel. He is pushing destiel, even though he is aware that people think he is queer baiting. He spoke about queer baiting. Don't you watch his panels? He calls the people who criticize him ''haters''.

Your response to Misha criticized SPN for being misogynistic in 2013.

I can’t really respond to this, since I haven’t seen it, so I can’t comment on it. I do want to ask though: how do you know he wasn’t reprimanded for that?

There were news reports written about this. Just google ''Misha Collins accuses Supernatural of being gratuitously misogynistic''. You will find the articles. It won't take you two minutes. What was the result of that? Misha fans, at his behest, starting rallying together to attack SPN for misogyny and demanded a spinoff. Their campaigning lasted three years. That spinoff is Wayward Daughters. It failed due to bad ratings because only Misha's fans truly wanted it. Everyone else didn't care. So the spinoff didn't have an audience. So Misha, and his big mouth, costed SPN time, money and resources but they can't get rid of him, because of Bob Singer, his wife Eugenie and her writing partner, Buckner. That is probably why older SPN writers like Sera Gamble, Ben Edlund and Jeremy Carver just left. They got fed up of dealing with Misha's antics and constantly shoehorning Cas into a script and they know it. Bob keeps Misha and Cas on board.

Your response to ''The show is not queer baiting you with metaphors, purples shirts and parallels etc''

The queerbaiting issue is difficult, I’ll say that. All I can really comment on is that I believe the show queerbaits - whether they do it on purpose or not is another thing. You’re allowed to believe that the show doesn’t and that’s cool. You’re also allowed to believe the show is perfect and has no flaws - also cool. I don’t. And that’s that. Agree to disagree.

Oh no honey. That is not how it works. Queer baiting should not be based on your opinions and beliefs. You are tarnishing a show's name and yet you can't provide examples of how they are queer baiting you? No, that is a cop out of a response if I ever heard one. Recently, MM spoke about Supernatural's ''notorious'' queer baiting. Not because they have seen queer baiting, but because of Destiel shipper's social media trends. The destiel shippers actually trended the topic of Jensen being a homophobe and MM picked up of that. All because he is not giving in to Destiel. That is sexual harassment. They are destroying his reputation because he is refusing something sexual that they want. Go look up the word social rape. That is what is happening here. I am shaking my head because you based a large part of your argument on queer baiting and yet you cant speak about it. I cant believe you just said ''agree to disagree''.

Your last response

And finally: I get it. You’re protective of the boys. You love them and you love the show. I don’t want to attack you and I don’t want to even try and convince you to agree with me. You’re you and I’m me and we don’t think alike and that’s fine. All I want to say is that in the future, please reconsider before calling someone names or urging people to block them. I’m a big girl; I can handle it. But there are so many little kids and young teens on this site who are vulnerable and might not be able to just brush it off.

You hate name calling. Well, then you must despise the hellers. They ship shame. They tell the wincest fans to kill themselves. They tell Jared, a suicidal man, to kill himself. And they threatened Jensen's life multiple times. I have receipts on my blog. They even threatened to kidnap Jared and his children. And they base their actions on headcanons. That is why I call out headcanons. I have likeminded people following my blog. One of them directed me to your mistagged post. I didn't find you myself. They are fed up of destiel shippers mistagging their posts. And they use my posts, calling out these shippers, to block because filtering tags doesn't work. Why do you think Destiel is called DeanCas, CasDean, DeanxCastiel and various other derivatives? So that a non-shipper would be unable to block them. They indoctrinate people. By the way, ''little kids'' are not supposed to be on Tumblr. Its a violation if they are. You should know that. And teens are not babies. Just a few days back, I reported a teen destiel shipper for threatening to kill SPN creators because they are not making destiel canon. Tumblr, according to one of my readers, responded. So no, if you misbehave on Tumblr, you should be called out for it. Tag your post properly. Because all that plus the online threats and excusing Misha's horrendous behavior is making your side intolerable. People aren't getting angry for nothing. People who were neutral on the subject,now hate it because of the tagging. They don't even know about the threats. Destiel, like a fly in their face, all the time, bothers them.

All in all, it was nice engaging with destiel shipper for a change, because they usually don't engage in discourse. They just tell me to eff off. So thank you for that. I wish I heard more about the queer baiting, because another shipper I am currently talking to also is shirking that part about the discussion. Which I find very quizzical.

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