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eccebitch · 3 months

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hotd & the anarchy

I did a poll recently about how much people knew about the Anarchy, a period of civil war in early English history, and most people said they were not familiar with it, or not very familiar. I was originally going to do a really long post explaining all the historical context, but let's be real, you have access to wikipedia and nothing I'm going to say is going to be more researched than a wiki entry. what I can do for you is put it down quickly and easily, so! the anarchy, and what it has to do with asoiaf / hotd / the conflict known as the Dance of Dragons* in Fire & Blood.

*From here on, when I'm referring to the Dance of Dragons, I'm specifically referring to the events that take place in F&B, not the book with the similar name in the main ASOIAF series.

THESIS:

the Dance of Dragons is based on the Anarchy.

making Rhaenyra based on, or at least inspired by, Empress Matilda.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN:

The way the Anarchy ends historically is extremely similar to how the Dance of Dragons conflict ends in Fire & Blood, and will probably have some bearing on the ending of HOTD. So stop reading if you want to avoid spoilers.

WHAT ARE THE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THESE CONFLICTS? The granddaughter of William the Conqueror (the obvious basis for Aegon the Conqueror), Empress Matilda was a really interesting historical figure who isn't well-remembered today, which is a shame because her life was batshit interesting.

Below is a very (very!) brief overview of her actions, and how they compare to the events in the Dance of Dragons:

While Matilda's father King Henry I had many children, he only had two in his legal marriage. One was the prince and heir, and one was Matilda.

The prince, and about 298 other people, fucking died in the White Ship Disaster. (The White Ship Disaster is really interesting in and of itself and I could go into more detail, but you ain't here for that, so I'll spare you. But at least give the Wikipedia page a look if you're interested in bizarre episodes in royal history. Anyway, moving on!)

Daddy needs an heir! He grabs his daughter - who had been married to the Holy Roman Emperor (thus the title Empress) - and made all the lords in England and Normandy swear to accept her as heir.

(exactly like Viserys does with Rhaenyra)

Matilda is extremely hesitant to marry - after an emperor (he's dead now), everyone's a kind of a letdown. Eventually, she marries a foppish French duke, Geoffrey V of Anjou. (This is where the Angevin dynasty started, for those keeping track.)

(could Geoffrey V be an inspiration for Laenor? Entirely possible! I do think one of Rhaenyra's kids being named Joffrey is a homage; Matilda's second son was named Geoffrey after his father.)

When King Henry I dies, Matilda is away in Normandy with her family.

(similar to how Rhaenyra is away at Dragonstone when Viserys dies)

Matilda's cousin Stephen of Blois takes this opportunity to crown himself king as the eldest male heir.

(could Stephen of Blois be an inspiration for Daemon? I think it's possible - at the very least, the Dance of Dragons feels partially like a what-if scenario: what if Matilda had been able to shore up her support by marrying another male heir? What if Henry I had more legal children? etc)

When Matilda finally comes back to England, she does so with full military force, and the conflict between her and Stephen's forces plunge England into a period of war so bad it's commonly known as 'the Anarchy', because no one was in charge.

(Similarly, the period of civil war between the Greens and the Blacks gets its own soubriquet, though, in the Fire & Blood book, it's noted that the 'Dance of Dragons' name is too poetic and hides the real bloodshed)

During this conflict, Stephen's wife - also named Matilda, but we'll call her Maud to differentiate - briefly commands some troops in London; Maud is held up by contemporary sources as an ideal woman for her daring and bravery... things that Matilda is castigated for in the same sources.

(This is, to me at least, similar to how Alicent is treated vs Rhaenyra, because Alicent tries to work more within the extant political systems - only claiming power for male heirs, not herself etc - while Rhaenyra does similar but is seen negatively for it. I do think that Maud is a partial inspiration for Alicent.)

Neither Matilda nor Stephen are ever able to completely claim victory over each other, and eventually, the war ends in a stalemate.

By this time, Matilda's son Henry II is grown. (This is the Henry II who married Eleanor of Aquitaine and is played by Peter O'Toole in The Lion in Winter, for those keeping track.)

Matilda stops trying to claim power for herself and begins putting her son forward as heir. Henry II is an excellent commander who becomes known to the people of England. When peace talks with Stephen finally begin, they're between Stephen and Henry; Matilda stays in France.

Eventually, Stephen agrees to declare Henry II as his heir, and it goes smoothly enough; Henry II is king of England.

(This is similar to how Rhaenyra never definitively 'wins' the dance of dragons, but her son is king.)

tl;dr the clear similarities between these two events, one historical and one fictional, point to GRRM's interest in medieval history and his continued use of it as a source of inspiration in building out Westeros. I think his tragic ending for Rhaenyra is extremely intentional because it reflects Matilda's real life.

#asoiaf #hotd #house of the dragon #a song of ice and fire #game of thrones #shut up pel #medieval

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reginarubie · 1 year

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if Rhaenyra reminds her of Cersei who does Allicent remind her of? the situation that Rhaenyra is in is the fault of Otto and her father? she did everything in her power to protect her family instead Otto and his daughter, from the beginning they sought to take away from her her right to the throne. compare to Otto and Rhaenyra? The only reason she became cruel was because of the deaths of her children. By supporting the greens, she goes against what the Starks decided, and becomes Otto's puppet

Hi nonny!,

I think you commented also under the fic, sorry for being unable to reply sooner.

I think you're taking too literally what you read forgetting that it's the biased POV of characters who don't see the whole picture.

I guess by your ask that you may be a fan of team Black and whilst I stand with Shireen on this one (that I would choose neither and that the whole thing of choosing made things so bad to begin with); that is also a very idealistic view of something very tangible and plausible, historically speaking.

Rhaenyra is also inspired by one of my fav historical women, Empress Maud.

But it's also true that in asoiaf Rhaenyra does remind of Cersei. Both women were protecting their children I don't argue with that, tho they put their children in that position themselves — we can stay here until the next coming and argue that it shouldn't matter that they are bastards, truth is that in our world that matters less, but in their context bastardy has an incredible weight and people moving in-context have been raised and see things a certain way that is considered acceptable — because they chose to lay with men who were not their husbands and have children with them.

It is a sad society, one in which Laenor could not be openly himself and whilst the whole supportive Rhaenyra is a show-news, as in the book she's very cruel to him for this sexuality (going far enough to actually stain his reputation not only because of his preference toward men, but also suggesting he may be a pedophile as well), Rhaenyra same as Cersei is a victim not only of her time and society but of herself as well.

What more, in the show is made even more clear that the children were not Leanor's. Whilst in the book the doubt could remain to an outsider — as Rhaenys had, had the dark hair of House Baratheon thus the children could have inherited her look instead than the Valyrian one, and Laenor did not have dark skin — in the show such a doubt is completely dispersed as the children of Laena and Daemon (which could be the genetic counterpart of Rhaenyra and Laenor) had darker skin than their father, something that did not happen with Rhaenyra's children.

So, putting what Rhaenyra did in the right context and society in which she moves, whatever happened to her children was not only a product of society but also of Rhaenyra's actions. Who had children with a man not her husband and who wanted to put them on the Iron throne and the seat of Driftmark as if they were trueborn.

And whilst we say they should be able to inherit from the mother, as we do it whilst looking at it with a modern perspective you forget than in doing so Rhaenyra was illicitly robbing Baela and Rhaena of their birthright (Driftmark).

With Laenor and Laena both dead, Baela and Rhaena came before any other contestant to Driftmark as trueborn and half Velaryon by blood. Instead that show she had understood how universal the change of law Viserys had made could be, and actually make a good change, Rhaenyra forwarded her bastard son (who had no right to Driftmark) to the seat of Driftmark thus robbing Baela and Rhaena of their birthright (the very same thing she accuses Aegon of doing, btw) binding them to humiliate themselves (always in the context and views of the society) by having to bind themselves to bastards who had no right to the seat they could claim by law only so that Rhaenyra could sit on the Iron throne and pass it on her bastard son, in an attempt to keeping what had been their mother's home.

So, if Baela was right to be mad at Aemond (as I've seen some Black stans saying) because he stole Vhagar from her because she wanted to claim her mother's dragon (forgetting Vhagar is not a land, but a sentient being) shouldn't Laena's girls also be mad at Rhaenyra to force them to marry her sons to inherit Driftmark which actually is theirs by law?, especially when, as Lucerys says himself he has doubts over claiming Driftmark when he never learned the Velaryon way (another misstep by Rhaenyra btw).

Try and see it from Sansa's perspective.

Rhaenyra's line ended with Aerys and Daenerys (and Jon but she doesn't know that), both rulers Sansa despises. Aerys for what he did to her family and the Realm, and Daenerys for who she is and what she threatens to do to the Realm (which she ends up doing btw, so her preoccupations were founded)

Rhaenyra wants to rob other women of their rightful claim (like Cersei did to Stannis and Renly and Shireen) by forwarding her bastard born children, she means to use them the way she refused to be used when it came to her. Sansa herself has been overlooked time and time again because of her claim, or people tried to use her because of it. She despises those who try to do the same and Rhaenyra is doing the same to Baela and Rhaena.

Rhaenyra has shown her cruel side (Sansa witnessed Joffrey making a bard chose between fingers and tongue; Rhaenyra demanded the head of a man who told the truth, and the tongues of other men who said the truth — which is book canon — and it's easy to see how Sansa would feel about that since her lord father was executed because he told the truth about Joffrey — always about bastardy come to think of it)

Rhaenyra wants to put her bastards on the throne above those who are trueborn (her first three children are bastards and, if we actually take the show as form of canon, even Aegon and Viserys are bastards as Laenor is still alive somewhere) and she killed, or is rumored to have had an hand in the death of her husband to then marry her own uncle. Which again how could Sansa not think of Cersei, who plotted for her husband's death and had no qualms in admitting her incestous relationship with Jaime. All things Sansa knows; what more she wants to put her children in the seat of her dead husband, though they hold no right over it, over those who actually have that right.

Aemond might have killed Lucerys, the same boy who maimed him, in battle above Storm's Ends (one was nineteen, the other fifteen — both too young, but — they were both considered adults for the context and society), but Rhaenyra and Daemon went after Jaehaerys who was SIX and had yet to do anything to be a threat save being born. You see the blatant difference from two men (for the time and context; though still too young to take part into war) and men against children. How is that better than what Cersei did in the book (and Joff in the show) with killing all of Robert bastards, who btw, didn't pose any kind of threat save being born and resembling their father?

Is it very difficult to see why Rhaenyra would remind Sansa of Cersei?, especially knowing that Rhaenyra would act in such a way that the people would turn against her?, raising the taxes as a direct result of the way she went head-on into war and becoming paranoid and acting out because of it?, how does any of that not remind Sansa of Cersei?

If anything Daenerys is less foolish than Rhaenyra in this aspect, she knew she had nothing for her campaign west save her dragons, which were still too little and could be killed, she raised three armies and conquered cities east to gain labor-force, blindly loyal armies and coin enough to finance herself coming back to Westeros; though she foolishly began something as a show of force she doesn't know how to finish.

Anyway, digressing and dissecting something about which we know very little still.

I think it's not farfetched to see why Sansa would be reminded of Cersei upon seeing Rhaenyra's behavior and actions.

Alicent is putting her trueborn Targaryen children on the throne knowing well enough that Rhaenyra would not easily let them live when at least half the lords of the Realm's rather see a man on the Iron throne than a woman. It's a matter of how society works.

Remember what Sansa did when Bran returned to Winterfell?, she took the side when the lords named Jon (a bastard) king over the trueborn daughter, because Jon had shown his worth and she believed in him, yet the moment Bran returned she wielded rulership over Winterfell, her only agency, to her brother tho he was younger and possibly could not have children, because he was Ned Stark trueborn son.

Also Sansa knows perfectly well the Greens aren't stinchi di santi, as we say in Italy (all high and mighty). And yet Aegon III and Viserys II were never went after by the Greens and survived the Dance, whilst Rhaenyra had no qualms going after Jaehaerys. Also they hold the distinction of not being completely unreasonable and needlessly cruel.

Syrax eating Vaemond's remains is book canon, and it's something terrible and atrocious. It's cruelty for cruelty's sake (which is why they took it off from the show).

As far as Sansa has seen the Greens take care of each other and are united, Alicent tries to steer her children toward mercy and piety (from what she's seen) and tries to avoid too much bloodbath.

Is she perfect? Hell no.

In fact Sansa doesn't go to Alicent. She goes to Aemond, who has shown he can be gentle and has shown (the streets scene) he knows how to avoid riots (a bit like he said in the show, he is competent to do his duty — as he showed during his time as Prince Regent during Aegon's illness) and who values loyalty over ambition (he knows he's better fit for the throne and yet he supports his brother completely), something Rhaenyra has not shown. Sansa doesn't think of Alicent when she thinks she's alone and without a pack, she thinks of Helaena standing up for her. She thinks of Helaena begging to be killed in her son's stead and having to witness his death. She thinks of a boy of four (it's 126 in the fic) who had no fault and was brutally murdered just because he was Aegon's heir (the same way Rickon was brutally killed by Ramsay in the show). She sees Aemond and is reminded of Jon, the brother who defended her, and of Bran the brother who was maimed because he climbed too high and saw what he shouldn't have.

What part of her going to Aemond after speaking to Otto makes you think Sansa is becoming Otto's puppet? Do you think Sansa to have been LF's puppet because she kept him around until she could do away with him?

Again, Rhaenyra's line brought the Realm to the brink of self-destruction even before the dead stepped past the Wall (remember she doesn't know about Jon's parentage, though it was his Stark's duty — defending the North from the enemies that lay beyond the Wall — that moves him) and almost destroyed House Stark as well. Under the rulership of her line the castle of the Wall stopped being manned until basically one a handful still could hold off the wildlings (let alone the dead and the Others).

If she were to move the strings, instead, could she ensure the North come out stronger? This is the question she asks herself.

Also, never forget House Stark has a knack for not breaking an oath and still moving around it to get the best outcome. Cregan didn't move from the North until most of the Dance was done with, and it was during the Hour of the Wolf, when Cregan basically put in order the Realm that Aegon III was betrothed to Jaehaera (Aegon II's daughter). And again, Sansa knows what Rhaenyra's line will mean for House Stark, she's going to defend House Stark and the North.

Also, she compares Otto to Rhaenyra whilst knowing very well there are differences, because Otto has no qualms in using her and possibly put her in death-peril to divide the Blacks, and Rhaenyra does the very same. In the aspect of how far they'll go to reach what they want, they are similar (though Rhaenyra will show to be much worse, as she will have Jaehaerys brutally killed) and Sansa acknowledges they are both a threat.

Sansa is not becoming anyone's puppet, Sansa is a player outside the board, so to speak. Remember Petyr's lessons?

Anyone is your enemy and anyone is your friend.

And Ned's lessons.

Love is a surer way to loyalty then fear.

Sansa has entered the game, and she's a difficult player to beat not only because she knows snippets of what may happen, but because she has a goal the others can't even envision. And if they don't know what she wants they can't know how to move her, instead she knows what they want.

Remember, Sansa is the kind of woman who would work around an oath or break it, if it meant ensuring the safety of those she loves. She's the kind of woman who looked past the obvious advantage of having a queen in love with her brother in her grasp because that didn't mean she would be a good queen.

And that kind of player is the worst player to defeat. I said it once and I'll say it again, the game of thrones never has a clean cut victory or defeat; and yet Sansa is a victor, because she reached her goal. Ensuring the North went free and Jon was spared (she wanted him to return as king, as she herself says), being loved.

A puppet? Sansa is the mastermind and she has started to play.

I hope I have resolved your doubts about why in my story things are approached in a certain manner. Sorry again for not managing to reply to you under the fic, but as you've seen I am not replying to comments there as I am very busy, tho I read them all and had intended to reply to your query, happy to be able to do it here!

As always thank you for dropping by, and hope you have a wonderful day! All the love ~G.

#ask the hag #anon asks #firesteel #firesteel fandom #firesteel squad #firesteel brainrot #fire steel for the win #kissed by fire ~ kissed by steel #rhaenyra IS similar to Cersei #and it really shouldn't be a surprise that Sansa caught on that very early on #the Greens aren't saints #they aren't high and mighty either #Sansa didn't chose a side #she's a player outside the board #with a goal in her mind #and a plan to reach it #thank you for the ask!

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thecatsaesthetics · 2 years

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At the end of the day as much as I admire and like ASOIAF as a series, I find the premise of the Dance incredibly weak. Martin has claimed it’s based on The Anarchy but that was a civil war between Empress Maud (daughter of King Henry I) and King Stephen (nephew of King Henry I). The dispute is obvious and clear.

Truly I will never understand why Martin made Visery have sons and why not make them nephews or something because literally the whole story falls apart. No true reason is ever given for why Viserys refuses to name Aegon as his successor. The lack of a reason (although multiple in the fandom have been speculated) makes this all fall apart in my opinion.

#house of the dragon #fire and blood #I know it’s probably an unpopular opinion

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hiddenqveendom · 3 years

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OC MASTERLIST

here is my working oc masterlist by fandom. i shall be updating as i go. please bear with me!

ORIGINAL STORIES

Boyd ( Westwood )

Clio ( Westwood )

Cosimo ( The Last Messenger )

Crowe ( The Last Messenger )

Dario ( don’t you ever wonder how we survive )

Eleazar ( Westwood )

Eudora ( Westwood )

Farina ( Westwood )

Fortuna ( The Last Messenger )

Hesperia ( Westwood )

Keene ( The Last Messenger )

Margrave ( The Last Messenger )

Nadine Farhat ( Magic 8 )

Penelope ( Westwood )

Tahira Alvi ( The Tourists )

Tengu ( Westwood )

Thyri ( Westwood )

Ward ( The Last Messenger )

DCU

Febe Ferrera ( Titans )

Keliand’r ( Titans )

Ruth Reisman ( Titans )

Mariona Roser ( The Batman )

Maude Sweetnam ( Titans )

Merideth Sweetnam ( The Dark Knight)

Millicent Sweetnam (Titans )

Miranda “Nemesis” Keo ( SS2 )

Otto Pritchard ( The Batman )

Salvador Valiente ( Titans )

Wila Leith ( peacemaker )

CAOS

Madge Jourdayn

RIVERDALE

Chasity Combs

Darcy Delgado

Dez Delgado

GAME OF THRONES/ASOIAF

Brigot Karstark ( SYOC AU )

Delyth Tyrell ( SYOC AU )

Dorinda Bolton (GoT)

Mariya Bolton (Carry Your Throne)

House Oleander*

*House of the Dragon ocs

Zandarra Sand

HARRY POTTER

( removed ) FJKR!

GRISHAVERSE

Lev Denlov

Sayana Gan-Bayar

Stef Denlov

THE WALKING DEAD

Bex Callahan ( SYOC AU )

Ezra Cowell ( SYOC AU )

Mercedes Muniz ( SYOC AU )

JD Santoro

Lila Hughes

VIKINGS

Eisa the damned

MCU

Raquel “Raqui” Hernández ( Daredevil )

Ursa ( The Eternals )

Landry Culpepper ( Spider-Man )

Babetta “Babbs” Alcântara ( Moon Knight )

GOSSIP GIRL 2

Evi Lestari

TEEN WOLF

Rita Grange

OBX

Georgia Irvine

YOU

Portia Clarke

Reeve Clarke

Wren Gallego-Clarke

THE BOYS

Brielle “Brie” Eisen

Jace Eisen

Joss Larcombe

Myrna Cardoso

STAR WARS

Haydako “Geneisa” Calmay

DUNE

Lady Eria Deni

SQUID GAME

Cho Kang Tae

Oh Sarang

EUPHORIA

Dru Lau

YELLOWJACKETS

Dee Andersen

PEAKY BLINDERS

Edwin Sloan

Geraldine Sloan Changretta

Silene Espinoza

THE WILDS

Alanna Nettleton

BRIDGERTON

Verity Adair

CRUELLA

Sybilla “Billie” Mast

STRANGER THINGS

Cyndi Kazem

Heidi Barstow

Hugh ”Hughie” Barstow

Leanne Barstow

Myrtle Macintyre

Pamela ”Pam” Dunne

Tara Garcia

TWILIGHT

Tempest Renault

THOHH

Edith “Edie” Crain

MONEY HEIST/LCDP

Elisenda de Fonollosa Galo

CURSED

Liliane “The Champion of Astolat”

IWTV

Berenice Morrisey

WEREWOLF BY NIGHT

Theo Abaddon

THE LAST OF US

Sully Santana

ALICE IN BORDERLAND

Junko Bushida

1899

Florence Baird

SCREAM

Arnie Estrada

Ophelia Wheeler

Tree Hicks

WEDNESDAY

Cain Eldritch

DJATS

Lark Lennon

THE WITCHER

Petronella of Cintra

Livitha Aep Dend

Vincen of Blaviken

TFOTHOU

Rowena Glendinning

BG3

Attica

Laverna

Lilit

Rynfri

Gen V

Aliza Galvan

Mick Bates

tag list : @mysticalficvoid , @victoriapedrcttis , @sgtbuckyybarnes , @decennia , @veetlegeuse , @arrthurpendragon , @raith-way , @scootermcooter , @stanshollaand , @chrissymunson , @foxesandmagic , @eddiemunscns , @waterloou , @endless-oc-creations, @kingsmakers, @https-svnshine, @starlit-epiphany, @dyhlanobrien, @fragilestorm , @nolanhollogay , @connietheecunning , @impales , @emilykaldwen, @darkwolf76 , @princessmadelines , @nyra-fireheart, @thatmagickjuju

#*masterlist #*mine #*mobile post #ocapp #*mobile masterlist #long post

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fedonciadale · 6 years

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I’ve seen the story of ASOIAF being related to the Wars of the Roses before, but GRRM has also stated that he took inspiration from the crusades and the hundred year war - have you seen any metas on this? Or could you perhaps let us know how you see the similarities? Thanks - I always enjoy your answered asks 🙂

Dear nonny, thanks for your ask! That really warmed my heart! There are several allusions to Medieval European History and English History in particular. I would really like to do a meta on this, but that would be huge. I just tell you some that come to me at the top of my head and maybe I could elaborate in later posts!

As for Hundred years war, the war in the Riverlands and the policy of stealing food, scorched earth etc. is clearly a parallel to the chevauchée- practice in the Hundred years war. The word derives from chevaux - horses and it is meant to plant terror into the farmers’ minds and to undermine the authority of the local rulers who can’t protect their people - One of the reasons I think that Edmure Tully actually had it right when he defended his smallfolk and let them into Riverrun. Also the general feeling of futility and depression that comes with this extremely destructive warfare fits well.

The sparrows are an allusion to the mendicant orders of Franciscans and Dominicans. The faith militant is military order like the Templars, I think. The templars were founded during the crusades. The general growth of religious intolerance gives late medieval vibes and crusades vibes. But other than that I don’t see that many crusades parallels.

Then there is the whole setting of course, the Wall as Hadrian’s wall. The mountain clans in the Vale a bit like Wales and the Welsh (iirc, the mountain clans are also of the blood of the First men), even though the Vale is in the wrong direction. The knights of the Vale would be the Marcherlords of England, pretty martial and pretty independent. Aegon would be William the Conqueror. Dorne could be a direction-swapped Scotland (only came into the fold because of marriage), it could also be the continental possessions of the English kings, but of course North of the Wall is also Scotland. And the North could be Scotland as well. The North could be Scotland, and the Lands beyond the wall could be the lands of the Picts. The Freefolk certainly give me Picts vibes.

Bravoos would be the Italian trading cities.

Maegor the Cruel has traits of William Rufus. The young Dragon who tried to conquer Dorne, could be Henry V. Baelor the Blessed has a Henry III feel for me, or maybe Henry VI who also had the reputation to be very pious (at the times he wasn’t mad). Aerys II would be Henry VI as well of course. Henry IV could be Aegon V, came to the throne rather unexpectedly….The Dance with Dragons parallels the so-called Anarchy and the conflict for the throne between Stephen and Maude. Robert’s rebellion parallels Henry IV bid for the crown, but also several baronial wars against King John and Henry III.

I suppose I should do a post on which Targaryen king is which English king…. Give me an ask, if you want more of that … 🙂 I just can’t promise I’ll do it immediately.

So the general outline of ASOIAF has heavy allusions to English history, or to be more precise the popular opinons on English history. I sometimes think it is a pity, that we don’t have more fantasy that make use of other medieval kingdoms. Daniel Abraham in his “Dagger and Coin” series has allusions to the early development of banking (Italy in the 12th century) which goes far beyond the Iron Bank of Braavos. I’d love to see a ‘real’ royal election German style in some fantasy novel, some time….(other than Lois McMaster Bujold’s Hallowed Hunt)

Thanks for the ask!

#anon ask #ASOIAF paralles to history #ASOIAF parallels to English history #Settings of ASOIAF #ASOIAF

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sweetestpopcorn · 2 years

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Hiiii! Do you also think maybe Daemon and Rhaenyra were based off of Richard III rumored relationship with Elizabeth of York? Age difference is the same along with maligned uncle vs first born daughter beloved by the kingdom, GRRM does mix and match a lot, while the Dance is clearly the Anarchy and thr WOTFK is War of the Roses I can’t help notice the similarities

Hi there!

No, I absolutely do not think there is anything in common between Richard III and Elizabeth and Daemon and Rhaenyra. The Dance is based on the Civil War between Queen Matilda/Maud and her cousin Stephen, not on the Wars of the Roses. That would be the current ASOIAF timeline.

But to elaborate on this, at the time they were alive there was no evidence of any romance going on between Richard III and Elizabeth of York. The only evidence that we have presently comes from a letter some centuries later in which apparently Elizabeth expressed a desire to wed her uncle Richard, but there is suspicion and some evidence that the contents of the letters were changed.

What we do know was that actually Richard III was looking into an alliance with Portugal. He wanted to marry his niece Elizabeth with the future Manuel of Portugal and in turn wanted to marry Princess Joana of Portugal himself.

It has been suggested that any rumour of him wanting to marry Elizabeth was actually made up by his enemies to make him look bad and tarnish his reputation. After his wife Anne died, he even sent Elizabeth away from court and to Sheriff Hutton castle while he negotiated this alliance with Portugal.

Elizabeth later went on to marry Henry VII uniting the two fighting Houses of York and Lancaster.

Here's a very good article on the whole Richard III and Elizabeth of York thing:

Comparing them now to Daemon and Rhaenyra, Daemon was never king or heir, only ever prince. Rhaenyra was enamoured with him since she was a child, but later the two were parted for roughly 7 years. Around this time, Rhaenyra was named heir (when she was 8 years of age) and Daemon was away conquering the Stepstones. She was set on becoming the queen one day and he got further and further from that possibility with every new kid Alicent gave Viserys.

Daemon returns to court around the time Rhaenyra is 14 going on 15 and by both sources of Fire and Blood the two of them engage in a romantic affair, displaying every behaviour of two people who are interested in each other with Daemon doing everything plus to court Rhaenyra. The thing the two sources differ on is:

- how far their physical affair went (i.e., Septon Eustace says all the way and points Ser Arryk Cargyll as the person who discovered it seeing them abed; Mushroom maintains bases 1, 2, and 3 and names himself as the person who told the king what was going on);

-what Rhaenyra's feelings were on the matter (i.e., Septon Eustace says she loved Daemon and wanted to marry him; Mushroom says she wanted Criston and was using Daemon but Daemon was getting to bases 1, 2, and 3 to get her to be given to him in marriage -> during the Dance though, Mushroom describes Daemon as "Rhaenyra's beloved consort" *rolling my eyes*);

Then Daemon get's sent away (again) and two years go by. Rhaenyra eventually marries Laenor, he marries Laena, the two meet again, Laena dies, Rhaenyra comforts Daemon, Laenor dies, Daemon comforts Rhaenyra, she get's pregnant and they marry, fast forward she's Queen and he's her Prince Consort.

I see nothing in common between them and Elizabeth and Richard besides them being uncle and niece.

I know Emma Frost and Philippa Gregory (big sigh) have tried to push a very different narrative but the thing is there is just no evidence for what they suggest. I think they would be quite good in asoiaf adaptations though since clearly they like incest.

The closest characters in history I know to Daemon and Rhaenyra would actually be two portuguese queens named Maria I and Maria II. Maria I married her uncle Pedro and had quite a happy marriage with him. She was said to have lost her mind due to grief from losing a lot of children and her husband.

This is them:

Then we have Maria II. She was the daughter of King Pedro IV, and Pedro had quite the ambitious brother named Prince Miguel. Miguel always wanted to be king, and he was quite ruthless. Pedro eventually betrothed Maria II to Miguel (while Maria was still a child). They came to Portugal and Pedro stayed in Brazil. Once in Portugal Miguel gave a big old "F_ck you" to Pedro and decided to take the crown for himself and started a civil war with his brother. He never did marry Maria II though.

There is actually a very good Brazilian soap opera called "Quinto dos Infernos" that covers this time period. I think you can find it on Youtube but unless you can speak Portuguese I don't think you will understand it XD funny enough though Pedro was the ladies' man, not his brother Miguel.

This was the actor playing King Pedro (you're welcome everyone XD and yes there are so many hot Brazilian actors, y'all don't know what you're missing out on XD)

His brother Miguel:

Boy would George have a field day with Portuguese history... our first king went to war against his mother... and her lover 😂 King Alfonso IV almost went to war with his father and then his son Pedro went to war with him. #familydrama

But yeah... nothing in common from where I am standing.

All the best to you and follow me for more photos of the actor that played Pedro IV X'D

#rhaenyra targaryen #daemon targaryen #elizabeth of york #richard iii #the wars of the roses #the dance of the dragons #fire and blood #popcorn answers

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booksforlife55 · 7 years

Audio

Book couples (canon and non-canon) that creep into your heart like poison:

Magnus x Cleo - Falling kingdoms

Kaz x Inej - Six of Crows

Nina x Matthias - Six of Crows

Eric x Chistine - The Phantom (of the opera)

The Darkling x Alina - Shadow and Bone

Ronan x Adam - The Raven Cycle

Sansa x the Hound - ASOIAF

Kestrel x Arin - The Winner’s Trilogy

Karigan x Zachary - The Green Rider Series

Sue x Maud - Fingersmith

Han x Raisa - The Seven Realms

Sonea x Akkarin - The black magician’s trilogy

Special shoutout to Nocturne - you know which couple I’m thinking of :)

#sofia karlberg #Toxic #fallen kingoms #alina x darkling #ronan x adam #the winner's trilogy #six of crows #kaz x inej #leigh bardugo #magnus x cleo

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reginarubie · 2 years

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Will you be watching HotD? And what do you hope to see from the show if you do? I saw an ask somewhere that worried they'd make them more heroic than they were in the books - similar to how they portrayed Dany we more heroic for the sake of the shock value of her being dark.

Ciao anon!,

Will I be watching HotD, possibly in a very OOC way for a Targ critical fan I most surely will be watching it. For one, because as I've said countless of times I might be critical of Daenerys and her whole family of invaders and conquerors, I actually am deeply interested and invested in complex and grey characters.

Sansa Stark and Samwell Tarly might be two of my top 5 fav characters in the whole franchise (both book and show, tho the order might change if we think book canon or show canon) but I enjoy analysing also the villains of every piece of fiction I consume, honestly they are — most of the time, barred some few characters — some of the best written ones which makes them super interesting in my opinion. And this is especially true for asoiaf.

So, why will I be watching HotD? Well, who doesn't enjoy a good piece of fiction over characters so plausible? Also, I always found extremely interesting and complex the story of Empress Maud (upon which, I think, Rhaenyra was inspired), and I believe the whole trailer has given us a sneak peek of quite an interesting characterisation of Martin's characters.

I don't think they'll go for more heroic than in the books, because — let's face it — they've seen that people enjoy that edge of darkness and the history is already written, they know how it's going to end, I don't think they'll sweeten the morsel too much, tho I might be wrong. They might have done so if they had chosen to follow the entire plot of Blood and Fire, or made a prequel exclusively on the conquest as they could've framed the similarities between Aegon and Daenerys and kind of make a Daenerys-apologist show that would have attracted many Targaryens fans. I doubt they'll be, on the whole Rhaenyra plot, as subtle as they would've been with a show made about the conquest. So I don't believe the Targaryens are going to end up coming out heroic from HotD.

—› Also, as I've said a couple of times already, while they did whitewash Daenerys aplenty, they didn't exactly frame her more heroic out of their own device, they put in action the whole POV trap, the whole of her story is told up until s7 by her own POV (hence the usage of the triumphant score) and by the time s7 rolled around (with only one more season to go — while Martin has still yet two books that will be gigantic) they started to have her POV fall around her and the POV trap crumbling around her. And we see that especially by the way the scenes are framed and the score used or not used to leave room to the cries of pain, sorrow and terror.

These links will send you to her badass moments by her POV (hear the triumphant score) — this links are taken directly from another meta (x) and they show how most of her story is told by her perspective and framed as triumphant and how that changes in s7 onward.

Daenerys and the Undying: here

Daenerys and Astapor: here

Daenerys burns the nobles in Meereen: here

Daenerys burns the khals in Vaes Dothrak: here

Daenerys burns the Masters’ fleet in Meereen: here

Daenerys and the battle of the Reach: here

It’s pretty clear they’re told only by her POV, as they are triumphant and show her defeating the evil masters who want to rule the world.

While from s7 things start to change, there are other POVs and the score is being added always later until not added at all to leave room for the screams of agony, terror and horror of the people who suffer because of her.

Daenerys burns the Tarlys (note: I’m never over Randyll Tarly, an hard man and a bad father first instinct to hold his son’s hand before they are executed to comfort him): here

Daenerys burns Varys: here

Daenerys burns KL: here

Sorry for the digression but to answer your inquiry, I don't think what they did with Daenerys was completely deceitful of them for reasons, did they exaggerate the framing and score to get across the whole of the POV trap that Martin has build up in his books, yes? Was the twist rushed at the last minute? They could've played it better, for sure, but the points were there from the very beginning, it just took someone able to get out of the perspective of the narrator to see it. Many were blinded by her own reasoning as she is, as we all are when it comes to ourselves. This will hopefully not happen with HotD, for one because the story is already written and we know how this ends perfectly as Martin has already finished with her story — unlike with Daenerys' story — and secondly because they've seen that these years people tend to like unapologetically ambitious women capable or incapable as any other man, they are not sugarcoating this, neither about Rhaenyra not about the whole Targaryen House. [I pray]

So I look forward for an interesting, 360 degrees, characterisation of Rhaenyra Targaryen and her tussle-tear-and-pull campaign for the Iron throne, I hope they give us both the dreamy girl who is ambitious and cunning and the woman who was ready to do anything to have what she believed hers and her sons'.

Something they have failed with Daenerys, as they have whitewashed her too much for the sake of last-minute-shock-twist. Though I doubt they'll do the same for Rhaenyra because we already know where her history is headed.

So I hope in a more 360 degrees characterisation of our main cast.

And I am thirsting for any kind of Cregan Stark/Sansa Stark parallels (the lord/lady of Winterfell reaching KL after the assassination of a king/queen of the Iron throne, basically cleaning up the mess — taking/threatening to take the city to restore order — and then saying ‘bye, bye, bye, I am returning to Winterfell and taking one of the opposite faction home with them) the show will feed us. Am I reaching blindly into the void and will be probably end up disappointed? Possibly. Do I hope they won't butcher it? Also yes.

As always, I thank you for your ask, will you be watching the show?, and I wish you a very nice day!

#anon asks #ask the hag #house of the dragon and what I am expecting of it #POV trap in the show

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