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randomnameless · 4 months

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Localization discourse has started to rear its head again because of some Funimation localizer defending a line from Dragon Maid but it really got me thinking, I feel like so many people are so quick on demonizing anyone who doesn't like localization changes as pro-GG when it's much more simpler. People don't hate localization changes because of the message itself but rather because it's not what the character is saying 9/10 and it comes off as calculated and cynical. I feel like it's kind of a direct consequence of transformative fandom, with the whole "I'm going to write the story the way I want it to be and fill up the spaces" but instead of a fanfic it's with the original source material.

Pro GG?

What is GG? AI?

I remember this argument of the "it's not what the character is saying" and people being pissed because they couldn't get the "right" script - and tbh, after reading some arguments here and there, localisation always comes with necessary changes/adaptation to the text, let it be grammatically or to convey ideas from a language to another, so if you want a 100% faithful script then... better start to learn the language lol

With Funimation though...

The Shinchan earlier post was telling enough of my opinion about drastic changes that aren't used to transcribe a meaning or convey an idea to a foreign audience, it's just... erasing the source material and swapping your own ideas on them.

Like, uhhh

Funimation acquired the Shin-chan US license in 2005. Funimation's dub takes many liberties with the source material and was heavily Americanized. Many sexual references, dark humor, and references to then-current popular American culture were added, including many jokes about subjects such as Jews, terrorism, and Viagra. Characters were given significantly different personalities and new, previously non-existent backstories. For instance, Shin is refused an allowance, on he basis that he could use it to buy drugs (crystal meth), his schoolmate Kazama ('Georgie Herbert Walker Prescott III' in this dub) was an absurdly hawkish ultra-conservative Republican, the unseen father of Nene (known in the dub as "Penny") was suggested to be physically abusive towards both his wife and daughter, Principal Enchou was rewritten as a half Romani, half Peruvian man with a complicated, checkered backstory that includes a stint as an accident-prone magician, The kids' teacher: Yoshinaga-sensei (known in the dub as "Miss Polly"), was rewritten as a kinky and often domineering nymphomaniac,

The earlier Vitello and Phuuz dub also edited some jokes and/or what was considered indecent exposure like shin's buttocks and tried to "occidentalise" a few references, but it wasn't like straight up changing what a character is or their personality!

No doubts funimation was "authorised" by whoever had the rights of the franchise to lolcalise and edit it as they did but it just comes out as a "why did they rewrite that stuff like they did", to make more money, to make another "mature cartoon" like Family Guy expy, idk.

And to be honest... I don't really care, because I grew up with the Vitello Dub and read some manga chapters of Shin-chan, so I know what the manga/anime (sure, the dog wasn't named lucky but shiro!) is supposed to say and/or be about.

I don't agree when you say those "lololcalisations" are a consequence of the transformative fandom in general, transformative works have existed since... forever lol (some dude wrote in the early middle ages (grégoire de Tours?) how Franks are descendans of Achilles or something to explain how kickass his king and his people are like, at this point, he's writing a self-insert OC story, right?)

But in modern times, there used to be a clear (?) divide between what was transformative work and what was canon - 50 Shades of Grey sort of started as a Twilight fanfic, but it became its own thing and no calls it a Twilight adaptation or "Twilight" anymore.

The Aeneid? Despite what devoted fans wants the world to believe, is "just" a fanfiction, aka someone writing about the characters he """loves""" no matter how OOC they are. It's a Fodlan fanfic and treated as such. Or should lol.

Still, if in a fanfic, Flayn can apologise for being born as a lizard because having lizard blood means she's automatically evil and oppresses humanity due to the fact she exists, it's only a fanfic. It's not something I like, OOC as fuck, but okay, moving on. Rhea eating ketchup is my own hc, also OOC since we don't see her eating any in the games, same thing - but fanfics are OOC by essence because they're a transformative work !

As I said, okay, moving on.

But when what is supposed to be as close as "canon", albeit translated, dips in the same "OOC" territory?

Sure, Eng!Raphael will say "I" instead of "ore" to refer to himself - and yet, imo, if professional localisers (at least the people picked by the company to bring games to an international audience!) have some sort of leeway with canon, their work is inherently transformative - since they're localising -they are still bound by some rules, unlike a fanfic author, because the aim of their work is not the same.

When you write a fanfic, you write it for yourself, to tell the story you want.

Of course it depends, like the funi shin chan dub showed, but usually, I think, when you are a professional localising something (a manga, anime, book, tv series, myth, story, anything!) you are supposed to only bring "necessary" changes to the source material to bring this source material to the "targeted audience".

And it's kind of hard to determine at what point is a "change" necessary or not - back in the 2000, "Jonouchi" had to be changed in "Joey" because, supposedly, non japanese children wouldn't be able to understand/connect/watch/idk a show with a foreign name (even here in France, we got "Petit Coeur" aka Small/Little Heart for... Piccolo in the early 90s!) - but now in the 2020s Midorima isn't dubbed "Mike".

(even if 2013 saw a localised Fates edit "Suzukaze" to "Kaze" for reasons as foggy as Fodlan's 10k years of lore)

And we of course have the notion of "targeted audience" - here in France, in the 90s, basically any "animated cartoon" was supposed to be targeted for children, like 3 to 10 years old. Which is the reason why we got lunar dubs for Hokuto no Ken and City Hunter (no "brothels", but instead, "vegetarian restaurants"!).

Yugioh was dubbed for a younger audience than, I guess, what was the targeted audience for the manga (even the original anime, regardless of the dub or not, feels like it was made for younger "children" than the ones who would read the manga!).

And this is where I wanted to come with the modern "transform the source material!" lolcalisations - are they "heavily" edited because they target a specific audience?

Like... the funimation Shinchan dub was obviously not aimed at children the manga, or even the original anime, hell even the Vitello dub, were targeting.

It's almost as if we're not talking about "bringing this definite thing to random people", but "finding/tweaking random things to definite people".

Take Fodlan's lolcalisation, especially Treehouse/Pat's.

NoA was the only regional branch to have, on the official website, something like "the Church controls Fodlan".

Through the 4 (already 4!) years of coverage, some people are still finding dub exclusive lines that portray the CoS as "BaD" or in a more negative light than the original text. Pat completely missed (or was it on purpose?) Rhea's character, so Leigh had to dub Rhage, when Supreme Leader was scrubbed off her most, uh, dubious personality traits (tfw no information campaign anymore :( or calling Rhea a Nabatean as an insult :()

Why? Why those changes? Is it because Pat/Treehouse didn't want to bring the game to the US, but wanted to bring this game to the "Dany revolution yas slay kween" crowd + the "organised religion especially catholicism BaD" crowd? Or because they thought bringing "a game" to this crowd would bring more money than to bring "Fire Emblem Three Houses" to the general US crowd? So they "reworked" FE16 to have messages that would attract this certain crowd ?

(and apparently it worked, iirc the US sales made up for 50% of FE16's sales, so it was very popular (and profitable!!))

The Pat/Treehouse changes weren't "necessary" to understand the source material, or try to find similar references (a trip to a hot spring in Shinchan was replaced with a trip to Paris, because children who might not be familiar with japan might not know what is a hot spring, or what a "trip to the hot spring" is supposed to be), so why were they made?

Is it like the Funimation dub? To reach specific people, even if the meaning and essence of the original material is lost?

In a nutshell, I don't think localisation companies (Treehouse or Funi) work in a vaccum, if they can lolcalise so much, it obviously means they got the authorisation of whoever has the rights to the original source material (maybe even the creator themselves!) to "edit" the content...

But that's what I came to regret the time where localisation, even if they had westernised names and more westernised refs, wasn't that "free", as in, Funi and Pat/Treehouse write their fanfic of Shinchan/FE16 ? Sure, why not, I mean, everyone can write a fanfic. Can I get a peak at the original source - edited as necessary because i'm not reading in the original language and I might not catch all references - please? No, because the only thing available is either something I cannot understand, or a fanfiction that takes liberties, as fanfic do, with canon.

Take Shinchan.

OG : Shin is a preschooler who has a dog named Shiro - meaning white - because his dog is white.

Vitello dub : Shin is a preschooler who has a dog named Lucky.

Funi dub : Shin wants an allowance but his parents are afraid he will buy meth and he has a dog named Lucky.

Remove the "old school" Vitello dub, and either Shin is a preschooler who named his dog "white" because the dog is white, or Shin is... a young child who receives money but lives in an area where he could buy drugs.

I can't understand the OG material, and I know the Funi one is a fanfiction, so what should I do? Treat this fanfic as canon, or, learn the language/try to understand the material by myself using dubious tools like translating apps? Or am I cursed to forever miss on Shinchan, even in the 2000s, aka an era where people can translate and localise movies from one language to another, but apparently for this one manga/anime, it's not possible unless it's lolcalised? Snowhite was turned into "Blanche-Neige" but the story is mostly the same than the one told in the US, but for Shinchan, I can only get the "Family Guy" version that isn't told in Japan?

I remember there was a controversy about localisation (when the thing that sparked that controversy wasn't even localisation related!) where some people, annoyed with the "liberties" they have with their dub version, became intense and rude and want to see localisers as "mere" translators...

And it escalated to have some localisers basically saying a game they localised is "their take" on a story - which is true, because each translation/localisation works with the bias of the translator/localiser, even if they try to be as neutral as possible, they can't completely remove themselves from their work -

Still, in FE16, Pat'n'Treehouse removed the "Supreme Leader uses propaganda" mention. Why? Is it their bias talking, they don't want her to "look bad"? But the script, the game wants the player to know she uses "information campaigns". Pat's "take" is she doesn't use it, but as a player, can't I be offered the choice to make my own take after seeing the script that mentions it, or not? Is Pat the one who directed the script, and wrote it as the "main thread" that links everything in the game (regardless of Fodlan's consistency lol), or was it Kusakihara/someone else?

If pat arbitrarly "removes" this part of the script, but I see it because I play in Japanese/Chinese/Korean/heck maybe other languages whose dub wasn't overseen by Pat, can it be said I played the same game as the players who played with the Pat dub/script?

Pat's CF!Felix calls Dimitri a monster, OG CF!Felix calls him a man -> thankfully we can count on fans to find stuff like this out but, again, why this bias against Dimitri in CF - that comes here from the lolcalisation, and not from the original text?

Why is it there? What if someone wants to play, and hopefully, understand, not Pat's "take" on their relationship in CF, but the writers/developer's? Is that someone fucked, or kindly asked to learn japanese (aka to do Pat'n'Treehouse's job?).

I don't really have The Perfect Solution (tm) anon to the general localisation discourse, at one point I was on the "just translate" fence, but when you understand a pun or a reference, and how it connects to something else, the game/book/anime/movie you're watching takes another level and it's much more enjoyable!

And yet, growing up with 4Kids and seeing shit like Treehouse butchering stuff, or hearing about Funimation Shinchan is... disheartening.

The only thing I can say is I'll always be rooting for dual audio, let it be for preferences but also to get at least what is easily understandable to everyone (I mean intonations, shocks, laughs, etc etc) and a glimpse at what the game/moving/anime is supposed to be enjoyed, especially with story heavy scripts like the FE series - while reading subs, because even the script is translated/localised, at least with the audio, it's easier to spot "lolcalisations".

And let's not forget the most important lol

The Fandom itself!

Let it be for FE, Tales or anything else, what I find fascinating (on Tumblr but even on redshit and SF once upon a time!) is how fans will be able to compare scripts, people familiar/fluent/who know a language will be able to spot the changes, and inform anyone who wants to be informed in the community that, say, Xander and Marx are pretty different characters, just like Jp!Effie and "I love to eat"!Effie.

Of course sometimes there will be misinformation (remember the Dimitri is rude because he uses the omae pronoun?), but I still find fascinating how, faced with ridiculous lolcalisations, fandom itself - aka part of the people who were supposed to be the targets of said lolcalisation - tries to "correct" and remove the unecessary edits. There are still people who dgaf about what was lolcalised from what wasn't, but even if it's just a consequence of the lolcalisation growing more and more unrestrained/unchained to the source material - it makes fandom engagment all the more precious and fascinating.

Like, you have real people basically combing the script and/or providing a translation - for free! - to help other fans, when some lolcalisers are paid to... edit and "lolcalise" the script some fans want to see.

And so, we're back to square 1 : who is the targeted audience of Funi's Shinchan or FE Treehouse?

The players/watchers?

FE Fates was, I suppose, ultimately lolcalised for a """western"" audience", aka an US one because no one gives a fuck about the rest of the world - and yet, assuming a majority of fans are from the US, said lolcalisation was mocked/ridiculed and ultimateld decried by part of that audience from who the game was lolcalised.

Some people (I've seen a redshit post about it today!) claim the lolcalised changed aren't made for the audience, but, much like a fanfiction, those changed weren't made to be more palatable to an audience, but were made for themselves - aka to push some agenda (see redshit's theory about funi pushing a "woke" agenda in their dubs and subs when it doesn't exist in the og scripts).

And to be fair, with FE16's US exclusive "Church BaD and controls the world!!!" + "Dimtri is not a man but a monster!", idk what Treehouse was trying to do, push their "organised religions BaD" agenda and "Supreme Leader is right so let's make her opponents BaD to highlight how right she is" bias? - but I can't help but wonder if it was indeed the case, and given how Pat sucked as a voice director, if the localised!version wasn't just some sort of trolley Treehouse used to convey their ideas, regardless of what the game wanted to say.

I mean, it's still fascinating, to this day, nearly 5 years after the release of the game, that we still find "Treehouse exclusive" lines, or how FEH who's still running, also has "Treehouse exclusive" lines for Fodlan characters that absolutely don't match the non global, aka, jp lines, let them be written or spoken - putting on the tinfoil hat, I wonder if Treehouse or whoever oversees the localisation isn't deadly afraid that if they don't pay extreme attention and/or rewrite anything related to Fodlan, global!players will realise that they were fed "Pat's Fire Emblem Treehouse", instead of FE16, thus takes extra care to comb and/or rewritte every line/dialogue that could make a global player think twice and note that this thing they're reading/hearing of in FEH (or even Engage!! See Dimitri's lolcalised line about people of different races living together!) is completely different from "Pat's Fire Emblem Treehouse".

Tl;Dr because I ranted and disgressed and idk where am I anymore with this post lol :

I think there's a difference between fandom's transformative works - done for fun, as a hobby! - and some lolcaliser's transformative works - they're paid for that and aren't supposed to bring a fanfiction to the audience, at least not as localisers ; so I wouldn't blame "fandom" for the fuckery that happened (Funi's shinchan is more than 17 years old!) and is sadly still happening.

On the contrary, given how fandom (at least some part of it) actively refuses to accept the lolcalised "fanfiction" - to the point of doing translation work! - I think fandom is the reason why this discourse is happening.

#anon #replies #sorry i ranted lol #and lost myself in localisation discussion lol #anyways that redshit thread had a meme about lolcalisation and using AI to push back against it #and I haven't changed my mind lol #AI sucks instead of letting Pat head Treehouse bring back human translators and people in general with a work ethic #who will localise what needs to be localised for an audience #but keep themselves and their messages/agenda out of their work #as much as possible of course #i wonder if at times all those lolcalised changes couldn't be sued for plagiarism #imagine if the french Snow White dub had her diss cream cheese to promote real cheese during the length of the movie #people would be pissed just like creators themselves #otoh if those ultra lolcalised changes passed the approval stage from the creator themselves...#then I'm just wondering what kind of idea they have of a 'western audience' or whoever the lolcaliser #said they were lolcalising for #Are we supposed to believe in 2015 IS really believed americans were too dumb to pronounce suzukaze so his name should be shortened to kaze #I say americans here because NoA exists when NoE doesn't and no one gives a fuck about us we're just eating scraps #idk #lolcalisation issues #real life issues #when you were saying calculated and cynical anon did you mean whedonspeak like the Supreme Replies #aka giving a witty one liner to sound cool?#I'm afraid I completely lost the message of your ask and replied with something compeltely unrelated :(

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gendiebrainrotreceipts · 10 months

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Someone help I can’t stop laughing 😭😭😭

#you don’t get the verse cause it’s been translated too many times and has lost the original meaning..not that the original meaning would’ve #been that important anyway #bro what does an evil spirit feel like aksjahah #if someone tried to ‘share the gosple’ w that face I’d run tbh #idk religious people are something else skjshdh

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yellowocaballero · 11 months

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I just finished your New Wave fic. I’m convinced everything your write is gold. I loved your TMA fics, with the most heartbreaking demon AU imaginable and the hilarity of Fahrenheit 101. I loved your moon knight fics, starting with Steven talking to animals on the reg at work to the system growing closer with a focus on Jake, i- there’s- it’s sooo much packed into it. When I’m on burnout, of art or writing (maybe life in general at times) I revisit your work and am thrown back into a creative headspace.

You are my favorite writer, you cram so much meaning and thought into your work and it shows. The characters are dumbasses and say the most ridiculous shit and turn around the next chapter and say the most thought provoking thing, and I don’t get whiplash from it because these characters just work! They just do, and I… am very much off track!

Anyways I just got into Batman and reading your fic is fueling that flame! I can’t wait to see what you have in store next, and I shall now stalk your blog for writing tips! I hope you have a nice day broski 💙

Thank you!! This is so sweet thank you so much! This ask is so nice!

Trust me, if there's meaning then it's because I get obsessive over these fics and I massively overthink them. I honestly wish I was better at making simpler, more elegant stories. I feel like nothing I do is truly going to be good until I can find that simplicity.

"Dipshit who says stupid stuff and then turns around and spouts ridiculous philosophy" is just how I talk. But I habitually approach my life from a standpoint of finding humor in everything, if only to soften the blow. I was once told that it's really hard to tell when I'm joking, because everything I say is always half-joking and always half-serious. I feel like that's pretty evident from my narration too...

As for writing advice...um, I was just speaking about this with somebody. When you're plotting a story, the first thing I like to figure out is what I'm trying to say. Everything else should be built around that. The joy of writing is that I think we all have something we want to say, or something we want people to know, or that we have an aspect of ourselves and our lives that we want to express. Most of the time, trying to convey those things verbally just results in a frustrating approximation of your true feelings. I find that when I manage a successful story, the depth and scale of what I'm trying to impart is fully understood and felt. It's rewarding. I think if people aren't understood on some level, by somebody, they kind of die.

Thanks for the sweet ask!!

#dungeon meshi is the peak of storytelling and im not joking #my asks #my writing #(my writing tag is a good place to find my dumb essays!)#i dont consider myself a creative and i barely consider myself a writer #so i professionally have no fucking opinions on art or whatever #also im not sure you can call what i do art in like any meaningful way #but i know a lot of musicians and everything #and so much art is just a person trying to convey something that can't be conveyed through words alone #so much stuff is lost in translation between our brains and our mouths - its like translating english to a foreign language #the meaning can be conveyed but inherently it'll never capture the original meaning exactly in every way #i think art can help you achieve a more perfect translation more than anything else can #you just have to feel like that poor schmuck in j alfred prufrock all the time #'that's not what i meant at all; that is not it - not at all'#JASLKDF sorry for the pretentious tags and also pretentious essay #all i do is write fanfic i dont know shit about this tbh #i just think that idk. there's things in this world that only we know #things that only we can say or understand #and sometimes we have to say them ourselves in our own words #sometimes ppl focus too hard on making their writing sound pretty or correct or 'good'#and they dont focus as much on how pretty writing is a tool to say what youre trying to say more effectively #idk! im sorry for quoting ts eliot some things can't be forgiven etc

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roobylavender · 1 year

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do you believe Bruce is emotionally abusive? ik fans prioritise physical abuse and ultimately ignore emotional abuse tactics like parentification etc because it’s not “that bad”. I don’t believe Dick ever resents Bruce for letting him be robin (he’s grateful for it) , but in ntt he mostly resents him for being emotionally closed off, and rejecting him as a partner. Bruce worries for his kids safety so he pushes the whole “if you’re not perfect you’re dead” mentality onto Dick which ultimately is harmful to him. He’ll never regret being a hero but the rift between the two isn’t just a “we want different things” scenario but more that they’re incapable of giving the other what they want.

bruce being emotionally closed off from dick is what’s revisionist about that version of canon though. i think bruce can be bad at communicating sometimes esp when he’s deeply pained (like in knightfall, for example) but for the most part he and dick are shown to have great communication for decades before new teen titans and the adjacent post crisis starlin canon starts to rewrite that dynamic into something else entirely. per that version of canon i do believe he’s emotionally abusive but it’s not a version of canon i particularly appreciate bc it requires overriding the dynamic they had previously where they could certainly be prone to disagree at times but bruce was nonetheless willing to have an open and understanding conversation with dick about whatever the disagreement was. even the whole idea that bruce is responsible for dick believing that he has to be perfect or he has to be dead is one that new teen titans cements (or that issue of batman where bruce makes dick quit and jason is introduced thereafter)

i get that it’s easy to take new teen titans as gospel bc it is in essence the textbook source for dick but i think there should be some awareness too of how it twists that relationship between them and not necessarily for the better. i’m not opposed to bruce having faults he has to answer for. i absolutely agree he’s not cognizant enough of the complexes dick develops as a result of wanting to be seen as an equal, and thereby can’t realize the effect it has on dick for him to still be protective and fearful even if it’s ultimately out of goodwill and love. and there’s also the fact that even if he gives dick the space he desires to lead his own life it doesn’t mean he should be hesitant to reach out bc he’s afraid he’ll overstep by doing so, as a parent he should reaffirm his love for dick regularly regardless of knowing he might get some pushback bc dick is growing into his own (again, knightfall is a really superb example of this). but i also think those are tensions you can wholeheartedly explore without rendering bruce into a controlling and abusive figure, and i’m not sure who it benefits to write bruce as such in the long run

some of dick’s problems have to be his own, and he’ll never escape bruce’s shadow if the only source point of issues in his life is his relationship with bruce. that’s something i would actually apply to the robins at large. hardly any of them are allowed to explore problems entirely unique to themselves and i think that’s in large part bc writers simultaneously portray a mildly to explicitly abusive bruce at their leisure while refusing to ever actually address the elephant in the room that is literally of their own creation. a lot of people believe the bruce shouldn’t be an abuser argument is framed entirely as a resistance to bruce’s character assassination and for me i can admit that’s part of it, but a more pertinent part of it should also be the fact that bruce being written as an abuser is what truly chains his children to him forever to the point that they can never grow beyond that abuse bc writers refuse to allow them to. imagine the problems the robins could be addressing individually in their lives if not everything came down to them being fucked up bc that’s the way bruce raised them or failed to thereby. there’s a lot about the robins as individuals that’s deeply interesting and i think it’s not just a disservice to bruce but to them as well to write the relationships this way bc it obscures their own agency and ability to be explored for more than a haunted legacy narrative

#sry this is so very long. please know it is not me venting at you i simply have many thoughts 😭#but yeah like i think something that gets lost in translation is like. i absolutely do think those portrayals of bruce are abusive #i simply don’t think he should have been portrayed as such to begin with #starlin era bruce is very bewildering for me in all honesty i dislike it deeply #the issue where dick meets jason is one of my least favorite for the way it portrays bruce it feels so out of character for me #considering bruce was more than happy for dick to go off to college or to find his own place with the titans #and even with that famous issue where dick meets bruce after learning jason has died the writing is quite odd to me #i think bruce is very much someone who directs blame and frustration inward as opposed to outward #he’ll let himself get dog walked if he thinks he deserves it. which i think knightfall illustrates fabulously #the beginning of no man’s land as well #what i don’t think he would ever do is lash out at others when he knows the blame lies with himself. bruce is very self critical #so honestly that whole scene in the cave with him and dick. doesn’t exist to me i would literally rewrite it 😭#and i think it is very significant that wolfman chose to recreate that slap three times if memory serves while every other write in bat #editorial at the time straight up ignored it and acted like it never happened. like idk that plus the way bruce was characterized during #knightfall to me says a lot about how that was not supposed to be the status quo at all #anyway. sorry this has devolved into a whole other rant please do not mind me 😔#outbox

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